Conference moira::parenting

I was in the UK last week while this was happening and it is truly shocking.
Even more so because this isn't the only incidence of violence recently.  In
another case, a nurse on the pediatrics ward has been arrested for murdering
something like 17 babies.  In another case a twelve year old girl fainted on
the school grounds.  She was taken to hospital where it was discovered that she
was 31 weeks pregnant as the result of a gang rape that she dared not tell
anyone about.  And an actress, a single mother, left her 11 year old daughter
home and went off to Spain for two weeks with her boyfriend.  She didn't
even want to come home when found out and said she gave "that kid" everything.
She was released and got her daughter back the next morning.

These were just a few of the incidents that were overshadowed by James 
abduction while I was there.  It is no wonder that UK parents are up in arms.

Cheryl

   Yes, this tragedy has made it to the US news.  I caught a little of a
   morning talk show before I left today, and they were interviewing
   someone from the UK over a satelite link - I didn't catch who he was,
   but I go the impression that he was in law enforcement somehow.
   
   Interesting, he was saying that they (the British, and maybe Europeans
   as well) had for a long time felt relatively "safe", since they didn't
   have all the problems with crime that we had here in the US.  Now, he
   said, they have realized that they are not immune either....
   
   Sad.
   
   - Tom

    I heard about little James' abduction on the news and was horrified to
    hear that it was 2 ten year old boys who did this to this poor little
    boy.  It makes me sick to hear of these kind of things.  I have a 3+
    little boy who is very friendly and would go with anyone and I am
    afaird to let his hand go even walking into my house after work.  I
    hope the magistrate in the UK can do some justice to these boys who
    like to kill 2 year olds.  I know not much will be done because the
    boys are juvinells. But if it were me I wold put them away for the rest
    of their lives.  
    
    Liz

What was particularly sad and upsetting was the videos which were taken by
security cameras.  In the first, you saw little James being led away 
trustingly by the hand.  A few days later we saw one where they were crossing
a bridge and James was struggling trying to get away.  I'll never be able
to pass a child struggling in the hands of someone without reliving that 
scene.

How could anyone have known?  It could, after all, have been a "big brother"
struggling to get his little brother home.

ccb

<How could anyone have known?  It could, after all, have been a "big brother"
<struggling to get his little brother home.

That's why (as mentioned in another note), I have instructed my son to yell
"He's not my daddy" if a strange man tried to pull him away.  Maybe I should
teach him other variations on that like "he's not my brother" or "I don't know
him; he's a stranger!" as I have already taught him "She's not my mommy".  
This is really scary stuff. 

    Carol

    I too saw the news film over the weekend.  I didn't realize at the time
    how much attention AJ was paying to the TV.  He wanted to know "who got
    dead,mom?"  and then the newsman said it was 2 ten year old boys.  Even
    at this young age AJ wanted to know how did they do it, and told me how
    everyone seemed so sad on the TV.  
    
    I heard this morning that the boys are going to be tried as adults.  Is
    this possible?  Just a heartbreaking experience, I feel so badly for
    the mother.
    
    
    Then of course there's the murder of the Boston policeman, he left
    three small children.  Killed in his own police station, and with his
    own gun.  What a tradgedy, that amazingly was overshawdowed by the
    Livepool event.
    
    Sadly,
    Lyn

    Has there been any suggestion yet as what the motive was ?
    
    L.

    I too am horrified by this event - my sitter first told me about it -
    she was so upset about it - she has a soft spoken gentle 10 year old
    boy and could not understand how a child that age could do this.
    
    I am wondering though, what kind of life/conditioning/environment could
    influence young children this way that they would even consider this 
    deed? Its a tragedy for their young lives too.  I am sure there is
    pressure to be lenient for such young offenders and even greater 
    pressure that they be punished as adults for committing adult crimes.
    
    Its just horrible.
    Monica

    I read this story yesterday in the paper while at work - I sat at
    my desk and cried ( and it still brings tears to my eyes thinking
    about it) - I went home last night and went into my 2 year olds room
    and just looked at him and cried some more - it's so hard to
    believe that these things can happen - I want to feel safe but I don't- 
    I'm very afraid!!    I was wondering too what kind of environment those
    2 10 year olds live in that would cause them to do such a thing - they
    are only children too!!  My God, what were they thinking?!  It's
    beyond anything I can imagine!   Lila  
                                                              

    
    Children see... how many?... 600,000 murders on TV by the time they're
    10 (or some similar statistic.
    
    ... and we wonder why violence is on the increase.
    
    This is an awful thing to happen.  My heart goes out to the two year
    old' mother.. it's my worst nightmare.
    
    Jamd

    Without going into the gory details.  Does anyone know if this murder
    was some sort of ritualistic thing the boys did?  Some cult or
    something?  It's so incredibly violent and horrible that apart from the
    possibility these boys were born mean and sadistic (which has happened
    before - Jeff Dahmer tortured and killed lots of animals, starting with
    small ones and working up to a neighbor's german shepard and putting
    the head of a spike for them), it seems like something was pushing
    this.
    
    At least here in New Hampshire we aren't hearing any more, because our
    news is sort of overshadowed with the slaying of a Boston Policeman,
    whose funereal is today.

    The police have issued no details on this crime - we are unaware of why
    these boys did it.  The only thing that the newspapers printed were
    that they were from broken homes and were known bullies.  I think this
    is bullying at its most horrific.
    
    There has been no further news since the boys were remanded in custody
    until March, when they will be in front of the Crown Court.
    
    Will keep you all informed.
    
    Maggie
    

    I was horrified, too.  What could induce 10 year olds to do something
    like this?  What scared me was that the 2 boys had already tried to get
    another child earlier that same day, I think.  They obviously meant to
    beat up someone.  I just want to gather my 4 month old daughter in my
    arms and keep her home until she's 18!
    
    Jennifer

    
    
    It was scary enough just worrying about adults doing awful things
    to children but now we have to worry about children being violent
    as well as adults.  How sad and depressing this world is getting..

    Hello,  I am the originator of this particular note and would like to
    give an update of the particular crime.
    
    The two (now 11 year olds) boys stood trial in the UK over the last few
    weeks.  Yesterday they were found guilty of murdering Jamie Bulger and
    condemned to life inprisonment.  Firstly in a secure children's home
    until they are 17, then in a young offenders' institution, which will
    prepare them for adult prison.  This is the first time in UK law
    history that two children as young as this have stood trial.  The
    details of the trial were harrowing, the boys knew exactly what they
    were doing - again it is to upsetting for me to put the detail here,
    only that prison is too good for these boys.
    
    I expect the news will hit worldwide headlines today.  
    
    I would like to add that Jamie's mother is expecting another
    baby very soon - but this will never bring him back.
    
    My own little boy, Jake, is now two years old - the same age, the whole
    thing sends shivers down my spine.
    
    Maggie

    Maggie,
    this has been MAJOR on going news here as well - Its difficult 
    to cope with when you hear about it day after day, 1st thing in 
    the morning on the 6 am news. My daughter is 18 months now, and 
    her caregiver's sons are 11 and 14; more gentle boys (with Charlotte
    anyway) I have not seen. It makes the story all the more incredible.
    
    The question arises in my mind again and again about the kind of
    environment that fosters such violent acts. What kind of life
    have these children had to even imagine such a horrid thing?
    
    I suppose little is being done in the way of casting responsibility
    on the parents of these boys - having heard that each set blamed 
    the other boy for being a bad influence. I should hope a lot of
    serious soul searching will be done on the part of these families.
    
    Monica

    I think, to some extent, you have to bear in mind that violence
    and violent crime are quite prvelant in the UK ... but it does
    tend to be somewhat different from what we think of as violent
    crime here in North America.  In the UK, violent crime is usually
    commited as hand to hand contact ... clubs of one sort or another,
    knives, chemicals in the face, like ammonia.  UK television does
    not seem to censor these kinds of acts of violence.  Look at
    programs like "The Professionals" with Gordon Jackson about
    12 years ago (and now on US PBS from time to time).
    
    In North America, it seems that violence that we see and hear
    about comes from the muzzle of a gun.
    
    The area these kids come from is, by North American standards,
    almost slum like ... violence is not uncommon ... unemployment is
    probably in the order of 20% ... adult supervision of kids is
    just about minimal.
    
    There are a lot of factors that led to this horrifying act, but,
    to be honest, I for one, am not all that surprised that it hadn't
    happened earlier.
    
    Stuart

    detour, when you know the Professionals are on Stuart you better tell
    me! Or else, uhm, or else!
    
    Simon

        It's so sad and it sends chills all over my body!  Two young boys 
    capable of such a horrible crime! My heart bleeds for them because they
    were babies themselves. I know that they don't deserve to live because
    of what they did but it just tears me apart. When my daughter was
    5 and her cousin was 8 he took a wire and had it around her neck. He
    wanted to kill her, I think that's why this makes me super overwhelmed
    about this whole think. I had to report this of course and my newphew
    and his brother (about six) were both removed from their home by DSS.
    It was my husbands brothers children. It really made a big mess and
    my inlaws were actually mad at me! My husbands brother was beating
    these two boys. The school had already put in a report of possible
    abuse on these boys but this really made that possibility a fact.
    
    
         That poor little 2 year old baby and his parents! This whole
    situation is so bad. When I think of it that could have been my 
    daughter 17 years ago. Killed by another child.
    
    
        Rose
    

    Holding those boys responsible is, I think appropriate in spite of
    their age.  I wonder at the conditions that helped create such monsters
    though.  I am amazed at conditions which helped create kids with such a
    complete lack of compassion for another person (the toddler).  When I
    was a boy I was often amazed at the lack of compassion in my peers. 
    So, add child abuse (toward the murdering boys in this example) and
    desentization, and anger, and what have you..... a couple of child
    killers?
    
    We (Western Cultures) had better collectively get our acts together or
    I fear we are due for alot more of these children who kill.
    
    IMO parenting is the most important job parents will ever have.
    
    Jeff
    

>    Holding those boys responsible is, I think appropriate in spite of
>    their age.  I wonder at the conditions that helped create such monsters
>    though.  I am amazed at conditions which helped create kids with such a
>    complete lack of compassion for another person (the toddler).  When I
>    was a boy I was often amazed at the lack of compassion in my peers. 
>    So, add child abuse (toward the murdering boys in this example) and
>    desentization, and anger, and what have you..... a couple of child
>    killers?


I believe that the boys should be held responsible, but the question is,
and I refer to the previous note that implied that they deserve to die,
what kind of responsibility are you talking about.  I cannot agree that
they necessarily deserve to die.

Again, I say that you must consider the environment that they are
growing up in ... where violence is common ... and where parenting is
not exactly wonderful.  I suspect that this was a prank that went too
far ... way too far.  Lack of judgement allowed this.  Where does
judgement come from ? ... good parenting in my book.

Now it is possible that these boys are remorseless ... and I'll agree that
if they are then the penalty they pay must be stronger.

Much will depend on the next few years.  Personally, I hope that they
will "reform" and become and be allowed to become useful members of
society.  I hope that the system doesn't turn them into criminals
beyond what they have become.

When I lived in England, one thing I noticed, by comparison with my
Canadian upbringning, was that children were very much children until
approximately their 11th birthday when they entered secondary schools.
Prior to age 11, the kids were met at school and walked home, and a
very tight reign was held on kids, even in "struggling" families.
Suddenly on entering secondary school, kids were almost cast free ...
with very little parenting supervision.  They were suddenly expected
to be near adults, having been almost over parented for the early
part of their life.  These kids were sudden;y expected to have near
adult judgement.  It was frightening.  

Add this kind of treatment to the environment I described before, and
you can see how two young boys, out on a prank, could have the prank
turn totally wrong.

There are those who will call my attitude that of a bleeding heart
liberal ... but I do believe that it is possible for people who have the
potential for being "good" people to get into trouble beyond our wildest
dreams through no true fault of their own beyond some incredibly poor
judgement calls.  If you are brought up in a society of violence, is
it your fault if you enact that violence on someone else ?  Yes and
no ... some of the fault must lay at your feet, and some at the
society that created it.

Stuart

    I pretty much agree with you Stuart.  I think that if these boys can be
    redeemed in addition to being held responsible for their crime then
    instead of three lives being lost 'only' one will has been completely
    lost.  Their attitude toward this is IMO the key to their future.  If
    they can eventually accept responsibility for what they did, be
    'truely' repentant (whatever that is), pay back Society (if thats
    possible which for murder I don't see how it CAN be paid back) and get
    on with having productive useful lives them the best will have been
    made of a bad situation.  The alternative is to put them in prison for
    life?  Unless they are unrepentant that seems like a total waste for
    everyone.  What was it Christ said?..... 'go and sin no more'.  I think
    that sums up the essence of what I was trying to say above, except I
    included responsibility and punishment to the equation.
    
    What if it were MY kid who had been murdered?  I think that eventually
    I would work my way to the point where I said the same thing.  The
    alternative would be a lifetime of hate toward the murderers... What
    kind of a way to live is that?
    
    Jeff

>I believe that the boys should be held responsible, but the question is,
>and I refer to the previous note that implied that they deserve to die,
>what kind of responsibility are you talking about.  I cannot agree that
>they necessarily deserve to die.

Stuart, I think you are disagreeing with a point of view that wasn't 
necessarily made.  The exact quote was "don't deserve to live", but the 
context of that phrase, and the remainder of the note was clearly one of 
compassion for Boy A and Boy B.  I saw no suggestion of capital punishment.

I may be picking nits to point out that difference, but I'd like to 
caution us keep in mind that the subject of this string of notes has 
potential for some serious emotion venting and flaming.  Let's please be 
careful. 

Clay

    	Sorry guys, I'm in the other court.

    	Those children are missing compassion. Whether it is because of
    upbringing, environment or genetic reasons, something is missing. You
    can blame the parents, you can blame society, but ultimately it was the
    children that chose to act in the way in which they did.

    	And I also don't buy the theory that this was a prank that got out
    of hand. Last night, on a news cast, it was reported that the boys said
    that they went to the mall to find a child to kill, the entire act was
    deliberate. Blows to the head with a brick and metal rod, pouring paint
    in an eye, continuing to hit a child (that you lured away from his
    mother) because "he would not get down" - none of that implies a prank
    that has gotten out of hand.

    	What it is evidence of though, is pure malice.

    	I'm usually the one that believes that there is goodness in all of
    mankind. But some crimes towards humans and humanity are just evil.

    	I still shake my head every time I even think of this, perhaps the
    parents of the boy can find solace in the fact that their son's death
    has certainly raised the visibility of violence among and toward
    children. I look at my two year old son and sometimes I just get tears
    in my eyes.

    				Wendy
                              

       462.23  Thanks for your note. I didn't mean that I thought the children 
    should die. My thoughts were that they needed to be punished for what
    they did and not live a life out in society as if they didn't do
    anything wrong. I really do feel sorry for these boys. 
    
       As for the deliberateness of what these children did it makes me
    think of the deliberateness of my nephews act on my daughter. A
    neighbor (thank god!) had caught him in the hallway (I lived on the
    third floor and she lived on the second). She told him to stop and he
    said "I want to kill her, she's my cousin and I can do anything I want
    with her!" He really wanted to kill her! He heard this from his father.
    When his father would beat him he would say "Your my son, I can beat
    you all I want." He actually believed that abuse was okay. This is what
    happens to children. They see violence and sometimes they strongly
    believe that is the path to take. Others on the other hand realize how
    wrong it is and try to break the chain.
    
         I personally don't know what should be done with these children.
    They need to be punished, but also I think the athorities or who ever
    gets involved in these situations need to find where these children
    learned this. Then I wonder, can some people be born bad? I really
    find that hard to believe , but that's just me. I have a 10 year old
    niece and an 11 year old neice. They are such beautiful caring littles
    girls. I watch them with each other and with my 3 1/2 year old
    grandson. Their like little mothers. But, these little girls grew up
    unabused and loved. I know that because I watch over them when I'm
    at their houses. I do projects with them for school and let them know
    I'm there for them if they ever need to talk to someone. I know what
    it's like to be an abused child and I'm one that believes that it is
    wrong. 
    
        I have a brother on the other hand that had six children and abused
    them all because he kept the chain going in his link. 
    
       Rose
    
    
    

    Thanks Rose, and Clay ...
    
    Emotionally, yes, one feels they don't deserve to live, but sometimes,
    if repentant, living with guilt for the rest of your life may be the
    best kind of punishment possible.  Obviously, they do need retraining
    to prove to them that violence is neither acceptable, nor necessary.
    
    Wendy,
    
    I understand what you are saying in the way the evidence was given, it
    cetainly doesn't sound like a prank that got out of hand ... but
    knowing the kind of neighbourhood these kids grew up in, I have no
    problem believing that it may have been.  A prank that neither kid
    believed they would actually carry out, but in essence by their
    presence dared each other into it.
    
    Stuart

>    knowing the kind of neighbourhood these kids grew up in, I have no
>    problem believing that it may have been [a prank that got out of hand]. 
>    A prank that neither kid believed they would actually carry out, but in 
>    essence by their presence dared each other into it.

Your last sentence indicates that the "prank" was to abduct and kill a 
toddler.  But that's not a "prank" by any stretch of the imagination. I might 
believe that they did not really originally intend to kill the child.  But 
they intended to abduct a toddler.  That shows callousness and sadism far 
beyond that which would qualify something as a prank.

Clay

    I agree, that is no prank ... And by no stretch of the imagination
    could it be ... What I am trying to drive at is that it is perfectly
    possible for two kids to dare each other into doing outrageous things,
    in a manner that starts out with comparatively speaking, an innocuous
    crime ...  Therein is the "prank" ... not the final act ... but rather
    where it started and the dares that took it to the fatal ending ...
    
    For example ...
    
    1) Betcha you couldn't steal a chocolate bar from the store ...
    2) I can do better than that, I could steal xxx
    1) Betcha together, we could do yyy
    
    I've seen this kind of thing happen.  Fortunately, the kind of
    environment the kids grow up in usually sets a limit on what yyy
    actually is.  But as explained before, remember, these kids come
    from an area where violence sometimes ends in death ... muggings
    are common ... and sometimes fatal.  What yyy actually is could
    easily be the tragic circumstances we are discussing here.
    
    So, I think that if I were a judge, or parole officers etc., I
    would have to give serious consideration into where the idea to
    commit this murder originated, and how it originated.  These would,
    if it were my decision, have serious bearing on the future of these
    boys.
    
    Hope that clears up the possible misconception I've accidentally
    given that I've lessened the seriousness of the crime.
    
    Stuart
    
    
    
    
    
    

    I am beginning to think that some are born evil.  There are many cases
    of two children in the same family with the same parents of course...
    one turned to crime the other led a good life.  Home environment?????
    
    If those two went to the mall to find a kid to kill..........  If that
    doesn't establish intent I don't know what would.
    
    Jeff

    Can two 10 year olds REALLY COMPLETELY understand how final what they
    did was?  Do you all think they realized what they were doing?
    
    Have their parents said anything?  Do they have any other family?
    
    

    .30
    
         I personally don't really think that they COMPLETELY understood
    what they did. I feel that their lives took a warped and twisted 
    road and it made them do this horrible twisted deed. 
    
         I can remember when I was 10, it was actually the worst year of
    my life. I was fed up with being sexually abused, didn't really
    understand it but hated it. That's the year I wanted to die so bad and
    wrote suicide notes. I can remember being so completely confused and
    determined to make someone either stop it or kill me. I was petrified
    of death but wanted to die. That was also the year my brother walked
    into the house with a razor blade and sliced my fathers arm, he needed
    over 200 stiches. My older sister and I had to clean up the blood. It
    freaked me out but I had to do it. I have a hard time dealing with 
    blood and bleeding. I think that I could have killed myself, I possibly
    could have killed someone else in my confused mind death didn't 
    mean anything to me except to stop the pain somehow. I know this isn't
    at all like the situation that these boys were in but I can feel that
    they must have been in a strange space of their own.
    
         I don't know if my paragragh made any sense but .30 seemed to
    somehow bring up my own life as a 10 year old. I observed everything
    that year and tried to figure it all out. Of course trying to figure
    out things on your own at that age isn't easy. I personally think that
    these boys have a serious emotional problem and somehow beating this
    poor defenseless 2 year old was something their minds concocted as
    something they had to do. I don't think that they could forsee the
    whole implication of it, I feel they knew it was bad, but were so
    out of touch somehow.
    
        This is just another 2 cents worth, it may not even have any
    bearing on anything in the true lives of these 2 boys.
    
       Rose
    

    Were the two boys abused?  I know they were brought up in a rotten
    part of town BUT - that doesn't mean that their parents are rotten and
    that they weren't loved and cared for does it?  
    
    

I watched the news when I was visiting San Diego a few weeks back.  
They had just tried and convicted the murderer of a number of women 
(ranging in age).   As I recall the man was in his late teens/early 
twenties.  They interviewed a mother of one of the murder victims.  
What she said really hit a note with me.  It went something like this:

They asked her how she felt about the verdict being just, her reply was 
it will not bring her daughter back.  Then they asked her for her 
thoughts and she said, she did her best to bring up her daughter to a good
person but that didn't help her.  As parents we need to be concerned 
about all the children in order to protect our own.  She wondered if 
someone had cared that the murderer was raised in a better, loving 
home, if that would have saved her daughter.

I think about the crime of these two boys but also the numerous observers
who "saw something odd" when these two boys were taking that young child
to the place they eventually killed him.  So these two incidents have
made me more observant and willing to take action (both proactive and 
reactive).  And, I can only hope if my daughter is caught in a bad situation
some stranger will intercede.

Sorry to ramble but the San Diego mother really hit home with me.  If someone
can better remember the comments you might enter them.

    .32
    
         I don't have any clue as to whether or not these were abused by 
    their parents. It may not even be fair to judge that as the reason they
    did that. For me I'm just trying to figure out why these boys could
    have done this. Has anyone read anything about their parents at all?
    
         I'm sure there are a lot of possibilities. These boys watch a
    lot of violence on TV? Maybe they get picked on by bigger bullies all
    the time and needed to find power in picking on someone smaller? I'm
    just guessing, I probably shouldn't even do that. 
    
         I know I did hear about how they had deliberately lured the
    baby from his mother and told strangers that did attempt to intervene
    that they were going to bring him home. I certainly wouldn't want
    to feel the guilt these people must feel now. They suspected something
    was wrong and let the boys take this boy to his death. It just gives 
    me chills everytime I think about it. 
    
         I was in a situation last year where a woman was telling me this
    and that about how mean her husband (the childrens step-father) was
    to her children. It went on for about 6 months her telling me how 
    he drank , threw things at them, then she told me that he tried to
    strangle her teenage son and the boy gave him a bloody nose. She then
    told me how the daughters (11 years old) teacher said the child was
    depressed and withdrawn. This woman (the mother) told me that she 
    straighened that f---en teacher out and told her that her daughter 
    was just depressed. This bothered me a lot. Other people heard her
    and people thought the worst. People made comments about calling DSS
    because no one felt she was going to protect her children.
    
       Well, I happened to see the childrens aunt and told her that I
    was concerned for the children and if there was some way she could
    talk to her brother (the childrens natural father) about either paying
    more attention to the children or try to talk to them and find out if
    they were okay. I wanted to call DSS but thought "What if I'm wrong?"
    Maybe she's exaggerating and maybe I'm too sensitive and foolish.
    
       The father happen to have the kids when the sister called. All hell
    broke loose after that. I warned the sister and the sister warned him
    to be gentle with the kids. He asked them how things were going . they
    told him that the step-father was beating them and neglecting them and
    verbally abusing them. The man wouldn't let them eat all day and the
    mother would come home and wouldn't feed them supper. Just fed herself
    and went to her room. They got food from neighbors when they would
    visit with other children or once in a while they would let them have
    something to eat. He took the children to the police department and
    called DSS . He went there to file neglect and abuse charges. While
    he was there the police took the children and talked to them one on
    one. That is when the sexual abuse of the little girl (11) came out.
    She had to be examined and all that. They took the children out
    of the mothers and put them in the fathers home until they could arrest
    the man properly and keep the children out of danger. 
    
        The mother to this day still hates me. She says I'm a big mouth
    trouble maker. If it hadn't been for me she would still have her kids.
    The natural father still has them because it all came out in court that
    she new the sexual abuse was going on for at least 10 months. They
    don't feel that she would protect them from it happening again. 
    
        By the way the step-father got 25 years for the sexual abuse. I'm
    so happy about that , I certainly hope he spends it all, even though
    I've heard that that doesn't usually happen.
    
        The way I look at it, if you suspect abuse, talk to someone and
    try to find out if you may be correct , because you may be right on.
    If I ever see something like that with a small child or even bigger
    child and it looks questionable , I'm going to asks questions.
    
       I think a question like "Do you know the people your with?" for
    instance. If a small child says "NO" then I'd certainly take the child
    myself.
    
       Rose
    
    

RE: .34

I'm sure that took alot to say something.  Sounds like you got the investigation
started and saved those kids from anymore abuse.

One of the boys definitely came from a broken family .. but I think more
the point, whether they were abused or not, one thing is clear ... they
were neglected in terms of supervision ... but as I described earlier,
this is not un-normal once a child reaches 11 in England.

As I said before ... the total environment was right for this to happen ...
and I'm only surpised it hasn'thappened earlier.

Stuart

    
    Rose, GOOD for you!  That took courage!
    
    
    On the two children in England...... I have read it's a scientific
    factthat prior to the age of 12-14, a person does not have the ABILITY
    to comprehend the longterm effects of their actions.  A person may
    know, rationally, that a cuase has an effect, but they cannot
    UNDERSTAND the effect is tied to the cause.
    
    This does not excuse them, for me; but I would feel more resolution if
    there was some provision for them to live a life that would allow SOME
    restitution.
    
    JMO
    JAMD

The children are age 11 now, but were 10 years old at the time they killed
the boy.

    Carol

    
    I am quite certain that the boys did not fully understand "death". (who
    does at that young age, I am not even sure that I fully understand it
    now). I can almost belive that they did not understand the finality of
    death.
    
    	What I can not comprehend is how they did not know it was "wrong"
    and how they could not connect with the young child's pain, fear and
    anguish and stop. (it surely must have been pure pathos.) The total
    lack of empathy and connection to the human condition is still what
    bothers me the most about this crime.
    
    				Wendy

       The saddest part of the whole situation is that I've had to
    deal with the mother of the abused children. I've had to deal with
    her overwhelming hate for me being a big mouth trouble maker. I
    ruined her life, doesn't care that her children may have been saved,
    just pissed because I ruined her life with my big mouth. You know I
    was so overwhelmed by the whole situation that I did feel a lot of
    guilt. But, I didn't feel guilt because of how she felt about me and
    what it did for her, but guilt because I suspected months before I
    dared to say anything. My facilitators and some close friends tell
    me that maybe it was the right time when I said something. Maybe, just
    maybe if something had been tried sooner there wouldn't have
    been enough evidence or the children may not have been ready or
    strong enough to talk. They may have kept closed mouth and they
    would still be in the abusive situation. Also, the little girl was
    very depressed and withdraw, she may have committed suicide or
    worse he may have carried out his promise to her to make her a 
    prostitute and have other men using her.
    
       Rose

    I agree completely with Wendy (a couple back).  Whether the children
    understood what death was or not, they HAD to see the the little boy
    was getting hurt.  I have three sons and while they can ALL be cruel to
    each other at times, they ALL understand that it's wrong to inflict
    pain on others and will stop their fighting before things get out of
    hand.
    
    Linda

    Rose, that too enormous courage for you to report that abuse.  My hat
    is off too you.  Its too bad that you have had to suffer pain over
    doing what was right.  But... hopefully you do have THAT consolation.

    As to whether those English boys understood the permanence of death or not
    the point is moot. They certainly had to understand that they were
    hurting someone, and, that they were hurting him on PURPOSE. The kid
    didn't die so quickly that they didn't have the opportunity to see that
    they WERE hurting him... not that they HAD hurt him and now he was dead
    and that it was too late.  It took a while for things to get to that
    point but they didn't STOP... until he WAS dead.  I don't know why we
    (adults) think that kids have some sort of monopoly on innocence.  I
    can remember many incidents when I was a boy when the other kids wanted
    to hurt me for its own sake... not out of ignorance either.  Why is it
    that we adults often talk about how mean kids often are to other kids?
    This is 'just' an extreme example.

    My cousin when he was 4 tried to kill his little sister by
    strangulation.  He's now in his 30s traveling in the midwest and has
    spent time in jail for robberies and assaults.  We don't know where he
    is nor do we want to him to know where we are.  He spent his whole
    childhood involved in ugly, malicious "pranks."  His two sisters are
    normal people and his parents are nice people.  So I don't know where
    he gets it from, but by the time he was 15 he was holding his parents
    at gunpoint several times.  They were professional people who made good
    money, so poverty isn't the issue and I don't think it is the whole
    issue.  I think he was just born that way.
    
    My mother grew up in abject poverty and violence.  However she and her
    2 brothers grew up trying to be decent people.  Almost all the people
    she grew up with in her neighborhood were desparately poor.  I know
    that my mother and her brothers suffered extreme abuse in the violence
    arena and they didn't have a loving mother either to shield them.  I
    guess I think there can be too much excusing because of poverty, when
    many people over come economically, but even in their violent situation
    they knew that treatment was wrong and not one of them has repeated
    this cycle of violence in their house.

        Through all of this I actually forgot a past experience that I just
    suddenly remembered. When my daughter was 9 she was grabbed by a man
    and we took it took court (he tried to fondle her private and kiss
    her).
         I wanted her to get through it and be able to talk about it. When
    she turned 10 she trusted some kids at school with it. They told her
    that children that get molested usually end up committing suicide. They
    kept taunting her day after day, I was back and forth at the school
    and the teachers and principal tried to convince me that my daughter was
    mentally in serious trouble. I already felt that and had her in
    counseling. The children taunted her when none of the teachers were
    around so everyone except me thought she was making up the taunts. 
    
         Well, we got a call one day saying our daughter tried to commit
    suicide. She was going to jump off the bridge on Burncoat street in
    Worcester. The bridge is above the expressway. I couldn't believe it,
    she told me she didn't want to die and that she wouldn't try to do
    anything like that! Well, in questioning all the children and the
    principal even snuck up on a few converstions he said he was appalled 
    at the cruilty in the children he thought so much of. He walked
    up behind one group of 10 year olds, they were children from her
    class, and one of the boys was laughing and telling the others how
    he saw her jump and she hit the ground and splatted. The cars kept
    driving over her. He said it was great! The others admired him for 
    getting to watch it! 
    
        My youngest was 6 and the 6 year olds in his class were telling
    him that his sister was dead and she did it all herself! He yelled at
    them and said my sister would never do that. They laughed at him and
    said "Oh yes she did!" My 8 year old son punched out a few of the
    children in his class because they were laughing at her, he had seen
    her running from the school and all the kids following her saying 
    "Kill yourself Joanna!" He started pushing them away and said "Leave
    her alone!" He punched some of them too! When he got back to his
    class he punched a few more for laughing. He told me later that he
    wanted to beat them all up!
    
         The whole story ended up that they were taunting her and she 
    decided to give up on the teachers and everyone and was running away.
    She said she didn't want to kill herself but the other kids wanted
    her to do it. When they got to the bridge they told her to jump! She
    didn't want to, but the tauted her. A police car (thank god!) happen
    to be near the lights and a coupld of Joanna's friend that cared for
    her ran to the car and told them that the kids were trying to make
    Joanna jump. The officer jumped out of the car and ran to her, the 
    other children ran back to the school and in the mean time the
    principal was notified of her attempt to commit suicide. which wasn't
    what she wanted to do but what these grammar school children wanted
    her to do.
    
         This grammar school only goes up to 6th grade so the oldest
    children can't be more than 11 or 12 years old. But it was more the
    younger ones 10 years and younger that enjoyed it. the thought of
    someone killing herself , how awsome to some of them. 
    
        It took quite some time to calm things down and boy did the
    teachers watch the kids like hawks after that.!
    
        Rose

Regardless of what happens to Boy A and Boy B, I think it's important to 
remember that the James Bulgers of the world deserve to be safe from the Boy 
A and Boy B's of the world.  That's at least as important, probably a lot 
more so, than what is appropriate punishment for Boy A and Boy B.

Clay

    .45
    
        I fully agree with that! That poor baby.
    
       Rose

    Re: the case in England

    They were stopped and questioned by at least two adults - offering up
    excuses that satisfied the adults. One that I remember was "we just
    found him and we are taking him to the police".

    I found myself wondering just what the heck *I* would do in such a
    situation?

    They were seen by one other adult pushing and abusing the little baby
    near a canal - the adult commented on the bump on the baby's head. This
    adult figured they were all family.

    How do you know when your appropriate action might prevent such a
    tragedy? I couldn't come up with any easy answers.

    Rose,
    You did GOOD!!!! whoever have heart for children can not think
    otherwise. She blames you for ruining her life? she does not deserve 
    having kids!!!! She thinks egoisticly (is there such a word?). you may
    have saved other people's lives by telling it to the right people. What
    you did was very brave and 100% right!!!! 
    I only wish others were like you. Maybe this way some kids would have
    been saved from all the pain.
    I,personally-admire you!
    Rivka.