Conference moira::parenting

    
    The January Parents Magazine has a feature in the 5-to-6 year old
    section on how to tell your kids about talking to strangers, for
    what its worth.   I haven't read it yet; just got it yesterday. 
    However, if they feature it for 5-to-6 year olds, perhaps 3 is a
    bit too early.   My 3 year-old son doesn't spend much, if any, 
    time out of our sight - or our babysitters - so for now, I think
    I'd prefer to have him learn to socialize under our supervision.
    At school-age, it probably becomes a more important lesson.
    
    Carol

Re: .1, In your case, your son is somewhat shy when it comes to meeting 
others so it may not be a good time to instill that concept.

With my son, he has very limited shyness and will say hello to
almost anyone and very oftens asks what their name is.  Chris will
be 3 in February.  While I don't mind him being a friendly child, and
he is always supervised in malls, etc., we have let him know that he
should not go anywhere without Mom or Dad (or other adult who we 
obviously trust).

He does seem to understand when there is a little concern in either
mine or my husbands voice or manner when it comes to strangers so 
there may be a little instinct there to help things along.  I'd rather
he know a little something about talking to strangers, or not doing so,
than take a chance that he'll find one with no so good intentions.

We've tried to set the rule to be something like "no talking to strangers
when Mama/Mumsy is not around".  This way the child knows that it's okay to
say hi at the grocery store or dentist's office, etc.

Keep in mind that they hear warnings about "strangers" but don't know what
a stranger is.  One day when Evan was 3 we were sitting outside of a hotel
waiting for the hotel van to take us to the airport.  A woman walked by us
and smiled and said hello to Evan.  He responded and I decided to see what
he knew, so I asked him, "Did you know that that was a stranger?"
Evan's eyes got *huge* and he shot his head around to look at the woman.
He looked like he was thinking, "so *that's* what a stranger looks like!
I'm going to memorize what she looks like so I'll know next time."

I've heard that some abusers get around this innocence by introducing 
themselves to the child first.  Then when the child objects that the man
is a stranger, the man replies that they are not strangers because the child
knows his name.

     Carol

For a explanation appropriate to toddler age type kids, I think that "The 
Berenstain Bears Learn About Strangers" is pretty good.  Not only does it 
touch on the dangers, but it also discusses the paranoia that (in my opinion) 
can develop from these simplistic "never talk to strangers" messages.

Clay

    Ditto on the Berenstain Bears. I was just going to post that. Clay, you
    beat me to it.
    
    Kate

    At about 5 years old, I was waiting on the corner for the bus to day
    camp.  A woman approached me, said hello (probably with my name) and
    tried to engage me in conversation.  I steadfastly ignored her until
    the bus came.
    
    Later my Mom asked me, "Did <so-and-so> speak to you on the corner?"
    
    I said, "Who?"  I hadn't recognized the woman who was a friend of my
    parents.
    
    The woman had asked my Mom if I was hard of hearing! My folks thought
    this was hilarious, but I was confused.  I was just following their
    explicit instructions.  ;-)
    
    This stony ignore 'em technique has helped me deflect unwanted advances
    many a time!
    
    L

    My son's school is going to do a series of three 20-minute sessions
    with each class in January on how to deal with playground bullies,
    strangers who approach, and unwanted touching situations.
    The parents were shown a tape of kids at another school receiving
    this "training", if you can call it that. It's a nationwide
    program that schools can take part in. 
    
    I saw the tape and it seemed reasonable. I'll write in after the
    sessions with an update. I expect the real value will be in the
    discussions we can have at home during/afterwards.
    
    Lucy 

The article in Parents magazine was pretty intersting to me.  It basically
suggested that you provide a simple set of rules for the child to follow
at all times.  The idea was that you shouldn't encourage children to be
afraid of strangers - just understand and afollow some simple common-sense
rules.

There was one rule in particular that surprised me initially - but made perfect
sense after thinking about it:

	Never accept rides from anybody except the person you are expecting.

In other words - the simple rules apply to all people, not just people you 
don't know.

    The standing rule in our household is NEVER GO ANYWHERE WITHOUT
    TELLING MOM AND DAD FIRST.  
    
    Thus, I have a 4-year-old who always tells me when he has to go
    to the bathroom. :-)
    
    The Parents article was very good, I thought,and I'm definitely
    going to clip and save it.  This is something that really bothers
    me when I let it.

                       <<< Note 412.9 by ICS::NELSONK >>>
                           -< Our standing rule... >-

>    The standing rule in our household is NEVER GO ANYWHERE WITHOUT
>    TELLING MOM AND DAD FIRST.  
    
The corollary to this rule is that Mom and Dad don't go anywhere without 
informing the children where they will be!!  I even tell my kids when I
go out to get the paper or the mail.  Set a good example early and,
hopefully, the kids will see it as a part of normal, polite behavior.

    The book "Ernie Gets Lost" was great at age 3 for helping a child learn
    more about strangers, but also how to deal with getting separated from
    mom or dad in a store or anywhere.  I don't think 3 is too young to
    begin to teach about who is a stranger.  There are weirdos out there
    who will try to give your child LSD-laced candy.  I read that, sadly,
    it's not good to have your child's name on a lunchbox, raincoat,
    umbrella or the like, because a stranger can address your child by
    his/her name, and thus try to make the child think they are are friend.
    
    Now that my little one is 10, I still teach her about strangers.  Once
    I was getting gas at a convenience store just off the highway.  My
    10-year old wanted to go into the store alone while I pumped gas.  She
    couldn't understand why I was so adament about her staying in the car. 
    I finally had to lay on a scare by telling her that while most of the
    strangers there were fine people, there ARE bad people out there just
    waiting for a child who is alone that they can kidnap.  I told her that
    if someone really wanted to, they could shove her into a  car and be
    off down the highway in just minutes, and that we might never see her
    again!  That scared her - but it DOES happen.  Maybe I'm a little
    paranoid, but does anyone in the Sudbury/Concord/Acton area remember
    11-year old Sarah Walker?  Kidnapped off of Rte 27 and never seen
    again!  My 10-year old happens to look 12, and total strangers have
    come up to her and told her she was beautiful, so maybe I SHOULD be
    paranoid!
    
    Ok, I'm calm now.  I get a little uptight when I think about someone
    kidnapping my child - it happens too often these days NOT to be a
    little uptight about it.
    
    KB
    

    Not to downplay .11's concerns, I think I may spend more time teaching
    my kids to discriminate between acceptable and unacceptable behavior
    from people (adults and kids both) whom they already know.
    
    My sense from my own life is that kids are more likely to have to deal 
    with unwanted advances from acquaintances than they are from strangers 
    offering them laced candy. That said, I also plan to suggest why they
    should be skeptical/suspicious of strangers. My older one is by nature
    one to avoid strangers. My younger looks like she will need some
    reminding... 
    
    Lucy

Speaking of kidnapping, here's a handy tip.  Don't know if I entered this
before or not.

About 2-3 years ago a 7 year old girl was abducted from our local main mall
(The Citadel).  She was taken by a strange man, abused, then released back
at the mall.  The same man later grabbed a 9 year old girl.  She *escaped*
by yelling, "He's not my daddy!"

Many times if a child yells while an adult is pulling on them we assume the
adult is the parent or guardian of that child and we do nothing.  When this
girl yelled "he's not my daddy" then people listened.  The man got scared
and ran away.

I am teaching my children to respond the same way.  I made it a game
by playing that I was the abductor while at home.  Evan (age 3 at that time)
loved it.  Just don't play this in the mall.  :-) 

     Carol

    That last reply makes so much sense! What a great tip. We were talking
    last night about a friend's son who is ah "willful" and they are always
    dragging him away from the stores where he tends to get over stimulated
    and then blows. After seeing this kid in action, I would hardly think
    twice about some kids being "hauled off". This is indeed valuable
    advice to keep in mind (remembering also that "she's not my mommy" is
    something else that should be taught).

    This subject has been heavy on my mind lately. It started when I caught
    an episode of America's most wanted and learned about some little boy
    (age 12 I think his name was Johnny Gauch?) who was abducted by a group
    of people who were running a child pornography, sex slave sort of
    thing. For several nights I had nightmares both for this little boys
    family (actually I believe he is now in his 20's and they think he is
    alive but haven't located him) and for what might happen if someone did
    this to us (maybe this belongs in the nightmare topic).

    Everyone keeps telling us how beautiful our son is and he (without
    trying to exaggerate too much ;-)) is truly beautiful (he has been
    called a cherub). He is also very complacent and easy going and very
    willingly goes to strangers without a fuss. The big question this year
    was how did he tolerate Santa and the answer is that there was not a
    tear in sight.

    Sometimes I'm envious of the children that refuse to be held or touched
    by strangers.

    I guess that the best we can do is teach, teach, practice, teach some
    more and throw a small nightly prayer in there.

    			Wendy

    
    RE: .4 The Berenstein Bears Learn About Strangers
    
    	Is this a video tape or book or combo?  I have a very outgoing, 
    	friendly 3 year old, who is not the least bit shy and loves to
    	explore.  My parents bought a video taped called something like
    	The White Knight, but I think it is not appropriate for a 3 year
    	old (ie. don't believe she'll follow the concepts).  
    
    	This past week we took some time off and I took her to the library
    	with me.  She saw one gentleman who made her run to my leg,
    	something that never, never happens with her.  He looked different
    	than anyone she ever saw before.  He had very long very black hair
    	and a straggly beard, he was very pleasant to her, but she wanted
    	nothing to do with him.  She did ask "Who's that?" and I replied
    	a stranger, then as an after thought, I told her that the lady 
    	behind the counter was a stranger too.  I don't think it registered
    	though.  That one gent had all her attention.  
    
    	It was one of those reactions that you and your spouse giggle at
    	later, but clarifies that this 'stranger' bit is very difficult 
    	to deal with, especially when you're 3 years old. 
    
    	Rose Marie

    I believe you can get just the book (that's what we have), the
    videotape OR the book/audiotape package.
    

    .12 I think you hit the nail on the head! dont you think that all these
    "strangers" are someones brother , sister , uncle , aunt, neighbor?
    I think this occurence is not as common as the media would have you
    believe. But this does occur none the less, and I think a child is no
    match for the wits of these types of people. I do teach my children not to
    accept gifts,rides from people they are not familiar with as well as
    people they are familiar with, myself I feel safest with the password
    method, where you give your child a word so if someone other than
    myself approaches them, they have to know the word to know it's safe.
    But as I said before the greatest threat comes from people you already
    know. I try to have a level of communication with my children that they
    will safe telling me should, God forbid, they are ever assaulted.      
    This is particularly tough to do, especially when they are taught to be
    honest and they come to you with something they've done wrong, and you
    have to decide on a consequence. All you can do is the best you can do,
    and pray that this never happens to your child or any other.  

    We just rented a Walt Disney Home Video called 
    
       Too Smart for Strangers
       With Winnie the Pooh
    
    The recommended ages are for 3 to 10 year olds.  I thought it was a
    good video, and my 3 1/2-year old son seemed to learn more from it than he 
    did from the Berenstain Bears book (which really scared him).  It covers
    the following topics:
    
          - What to do if a stranger approaches you
          - What to do if you're home alone and the doorbell or phone rings
          - The difference between "okay" and "not okay" touching, and what
            to do if someone tries to touch you in a "not okay" way
    
    The information is presented by Winnie the Pooh and his friends, as
    they discuss and sing about the topics.  They also used clips of real
    children acting out certain situations.
    
    
    

    Have I agonized over this one with 5 year old Matt.  "What is a
    stranger, when is it ok to talk to them, go with them etc?"
    
    I finally decided that the definition of a stranger comes down to
    something like this:  Its a person(s) who you don't talk to UNLESS
    Mom, Dad or caretaker is right there with him,  OR that he KNOWS
    is a person Mom Dad, etc has said is ok.   That gets around the Mall
    problem when one of us is right there with him.
    
    I don't know whether he would get into a car with a stranger after
    being promised candy or whatever.  He certainly has been told not to
    but I can't be sure.
    
    Something else which is IMPORTANT to tell your kid.  If grabbed or
    dragged the kid should SHOUT YOUR NOT MY MOM/DAD!!!!!  So that other
    adults won't assume its a parent grabbing the kid and a situation to
    be ignored.
    
    Jeff

    Good points are made by Jeff and others. But this horrible case in 
    Long Island where the little girl was kept chained in a box - my worst
    nightmare for anyone - really got me thinking. Here is a man the child
    has been encouraged to trust doing the unthinkable. What else could the
    girl do but what she did? She went along with things  while they were
    reasonable, and then apparently fought when he got weird.
    
    We know that in this case the family situation was bad and that the
    child should never have been allowed to be alone with this guy, but
    what are the lessons for the rest of us? All I can conclude is that we
    parents must be ever-vigilant without conveying paranoia to our
    children. I'm still trying to figure out what this means in practice.
    
    Lucy

re: .20

If we are thinking of the same situation, I think this emphasizes an important 
point.  The man was WELL KNOWN by the child, and if, I remember the details 
correctly, he was almost a parental figure as the child had.  The family 
situation, as I remember wasn't just bad, it was almost unbelievably horrible; 
not only should the child not have been allowed to be alone with the guy, but 
she should not have been allowed to remain in this completely dysfuntional 
home.

Quite honestly, I think that the lesson for the rest of us it to make sure 
that the fears over something being done to them by a stranger -- whatever 
that is -- don't obscure the fact that the vast majority of abuse occurs at 
the hands of someone who is not, by ANY definition, a "stranger."  You should 
not talk to strangers at the mall, and you do not need to let Uncle Joe, or 
grandpa, or even dad, touch you if it feels uncomfortable.

Clay

    Clay,
    
    Right - I agree with you. The part that puzzles me is how to teach a 
    young child to recognize a situation that at first seems OK, then
    gradually becomes something that's not OK. This seems beyond the
    understanding of young children. It's hard enough for some adults to
    say "no" to someone they think of as trustworthy, but for children...
    
    Lucy

    After watching my son Matt interact with people (he is 5) and
    occasionally having the 'stranger' talk with him I have come to the 
    conclusion that he can't be expected to reliably NOT go with or talk
    to strangers.  Children 5 years old can't be entrusted with matches
    or driving cars why should their judgement be different when it comes
    to strangers?  Kids that age are simply to inexperienced to accurately
    judge dangerous situations.  Adults often can't even do it, how can
    kids be expected to?
    
    My point is that all we can do as parents is lay down the ground rules
    and then be as attentitive to this as the other dangers our children
    face. 
    
    Its a tough balance between unduly alarming our kids vs. having them
    exposed to danger because of their ignorance.  I read an article by
    a pedophile (currently in prison) in Parenting Magazine.  He said
    that if he can 'get a boy to meet his eye (say in a mall), the kid
    is his'.  Meaning that he could then continue with the relationship
    to his desired end result. 
    
    I don't think that statement is literally true, but he makes his point,
    and I think he was talking about older (12 or so) boys.
    
    And, I agree that the great majority of child abuse situations arise in
    non stranger situations.
    
    Jeff

    I happened to watch the Oprah show yesterday and it left me terrified.
    They had hired a man to lure kids away from a park while the parents
    were being interviewed on how whether or not their kids would go off
    with strangers.

    	There they were, the parents in the foreground saying that the
    kids would never go off and there were the kids in the background going
    away with the stranger.

    	It certainly scared me. One of the things that was brought up
    repeatedly in the show was that we drill our kids with "strangers are
    bad people" when some kids were asked to describe a stranger, all of
    them said they were mean and bad looking and wore black clothing, not
    *one* of the kids described a nice person or a "normal" looking person.

    	People are forever telling me that my kids are the kinds of kids
    that are likely to be kidnaped and I live in fear of something happening
    to them. Like one of the mothers in the show (who's son would *not* go
    with the stranger) I'd rather scare my child than lose my child.

    	In the closing credits, they mentioned a video, did anyone catch
    the name and has anyone seen it? What age is it geared for? I'm not
    sure how much we can teach Spencer at this age (2 on Friday ;-)) but
    you can bet that when we are in public, I don't take my eyes off of him
    for a second.

    				Wendy
    	

    Your reply triggered a thought.  As my kids get older, I tend to worry
    less about them in public.  I'm most watchful in a mall setting where
    there are lots of strangers around, but I guess I need to become a
    little more aware.  I know I cannot protect them all the time. 
    
    I guess our best defense is their self-defense.  I need to teach them to
    watch for themselves....
    
    -sandy
    

My kids are 29 months old, and there's not a doubt in my mind that Brad would
willingly go with a stranger.  He's very sociable, and has a tendency to just
get up and go without caring if Mom or Dad are around.  Jessica will tend to
stay where we are, but if we leave her with someone, even a stranger, she'll
stay as long as someone is with her.  I definitely worry about them getting
grabbed, and consequently when we're out with them in a crowd (like at the
Bolton Fair this week-end or at the mall), I tend to put a harness on them.
They're a bit too young to understand they're not supposed to go with strangers,
so I'd rather get all those dirty looks and comments about the harnesses and
still leave with my children than take any chances. As they get older, I'll
need to teach them more about their safety, so I'd also like to know the name
of that tape.  We did see some of Oprah yesterday, but I wasn't able to catch
it all. It's definitely a terrifying thought to me.

      I missed the Ophrah show but it reminds me about the time when
    I was about 10 and a younger sister was 8. 
    
       A very handsome man, dressed in suit , kept pulling over showing us
    a badge and saying he was a detective looking for a lost girl and he
    needed us to help. I would say no and drag my sister away. Finally
    after several attemps to get us willing he finally said something like
    "look girls I have something to show you." He had his penis out and was
    playing it. I grabbed my sister and dragged her home crying. She kept
    falling and hurting her knees, I knew what the man could do but she
    didn't. I was already a survivor of sexual abuse but she wasn't.
    
       She recently brought it up and told me that if she had been alone
    she would have gone with the man because he was really good looking.
    She probably wouldn't be around today.
    
        Rose

While it is scary, it is so important to remember that child kidnapping
by strangers is extremely rare ... Most kidnappings are by people the
children know and most often in disputes of custody.  So, while you can
teach your children not to go off with strangers, it may well not be
strangers that you have to worry about.

We told our kids that they were not to accept rides from people they do not
know, and they could only accept rides from people they did know if it was
pre-arranged with us.  As they got older, and we got to know our neighbours
better, we allowed rides with selected neighbours / friends' parents without
seeking extra permission.

In families where custody is at issue, then, I'd be reluctant to allow the
latter permission if the friends & neighbours remained in contact or
friends with the non-custodial parent unless I was very satisfied that
they wouldn't allow themselves to get involved.  (Remember that if they
get involved easily helping you, they could get involved easily helping
the non-custodial parent too ... friendship isn't always what it seems!)

As to what are strangers ... I think it is essential to describe strangers
as people that they do not know, or do not know well.  Strangers are not
bad people ... as some platitude I bumped into the other day said,
"Strangers are often friends you haven't yet met."

Stuart

One of the interesting things about this line of thought is how protective we
are of our little kids and how almost non-challant we are about our over 10 year
olds.

While we tend to think of those who are 10 and up as "more able to handle 
themselves" the statistics say that 10-12 year olds are the most vulnerable.

    That exact point was brought out in the show, they filmed adolescents
    again and again helping someone (a stranger) bring something to their
    car, following someone to be filmed for a commercial and a host of
    other excuses. Some of the excuses were the *exact* same that Ted Bundy
    used on some of his victims, it was frightening to see them being used
    and actually working.

    	Just because the kids are older does not mean that they are at any
    less of a risk.

    				Wendy

    Anyone happen to tape it???
    
    -sandy
    

Mike, I don't think that "nonchalant" is completely accurate.  In some ways I 
worry MORE about my now 13 daughter, because she's maturing physically, so 
that I not only worry about pedophiles, but also about rapists.

What I think is the change is that at some age -- 10 is fair enough -- we 
WANT them to start developing independence, and if they don't start 
developing it, they will simply not be able to cope in a world in which they 
are called upon to make decisions around things like drugs, sex, and the 
like.

Also THEY start insisting on it, and unlike most under ten kids, they begin 
to understand that there are things that their parents cannot make them do.  
And additionally, they begin to develop a sense of immortality, a sort of "it 
can't happen to me" attitude.

But thanks for bringing it up; it's an important consideration.

Clay

    I saw just a portion of this show.  Another point that they brought 
    out, regarding what can a parent DO, is to "empower your kids to say
    no to authority figures."  Sad to say but we need to give our kids 
    enough self-confidence to say no to a teacher, a priest, even someone
    dressed as a policeman, if they feel at all uncomfortable about what
    is being asked of them.  They went on to say that you should talk to
    your kids about listening to their gut instincts.  That if they feel
    something is wierd, they should go ahead and trust that feeling, rather
    than worrying about being impolite to an adult.  Tell your kids, "If
    an adult ever complains to me that you wouldn't help them or that
    you were rude to them, but you tell me it was because you had a gut
    feeling that something was wierd, then I'll be on your side and won't
    be mad at you, even if it turns out that there really wasn't anything
    wierd going on after all."  
    
    About the statistic of kids being kidnapped in custody battles more
    often that by total strangers... that's true.  But what Oprah brought
    out yesterday was that people weren't always luring the kids away to
    kidnap them, but often to commit sex offenses against them and then
    leave them there.  So, we need to consider more than just kidnapping
    statistics.
    
    Jane                                         
    
     

    I did tape Oprah yesterday (missed the first 2 minutes or so) I want to
    have my girls (4 and 6) sit down and watch it with me, pausing at times
    to discuss what it is they are seeing and how much they are
    comprehending.  I would be happy to lend the tape to anyone who would
    like to view it, AFTER next weekend (I taped Shattered Dreams on the
    same tape and want to watch it, before I lend out the tape).
    
    Roberta

    
    I watched most of the Oprah show. Unfortunately, I did not tape it.
    In addition, I had my au pair watch it with me. She's in culture
    shock but I felt it was very important for her to understand how 
    important it is NOT to let my 2 year old out alone.  He gets out
    of the house even with chain locks and the plastic door handles.
    
    I'll gladly supply a tape to someone if they taped the show and
    wouldn't mind making a copy of it for me.  I want both my 6 and
    2 year old to watch it with me. When the 4 month old is old enough
    I'd like a copy around to watch it with him too.
    
    This show was very timely, since my au pair arrived from Denmark
    only two weeks ago. She can not get over how big everything is
    here in the States.  It also was good so she is aware when she goes
    places that she must take extra care and not trust strangers.
    
    I work in MR03 and can be reached on SELLIT::KOCZWARA.
    
    Thanks,
    

>    places that she must take extra care and not trust strangers.
>    

This really saddens me that this is expressed in this way ...  So often
we say "Don't trust strangers" that we instill an unwarranted level of
fear in everybody and everything.

My take on this is not "Don't trust strangers", but rather, "be cautious
of strangers".  You've got to trust strangers sometime ... 

I'm sorry but this Oprah show really bugs the **ll out of me, because it
specifically seeks to scare the b'jeebees out of people to help keep Oprah's
ratings way up there.  (Look at all the requests around for copies of the
show ...)  Most shows that I have seen of this type on this kind of subject
over-emphasize the drama, and over-emphasize the proportion of the problem.

Yes, these things DO happen, but in reality, how often?  And what about
the difference in neighbourhoods ?  Let's make sure wee're comapring
apples and apples here.  For example, in the neighbourhood we live in
just outside of Ottawa, there have maybe been 3 incidents reported by
the school of "be on the lookout for a man in scuh and such a car" who
has been following kids home.  This is in the last 5 years.  There are
other parts of the city where you may get one a month.  And the actual
number of kidnappings ?  I don't recall one in those 5 years.
 
Just like an earlier note in one of the Parenting conferences, we run a
big risk of Over Street-proofing our children ... so that nobody talks
to anybody in a neighbourhood, at which point you loose all the advantage
of the safety that comes of a neighbourhood.

Stuart

>    	In the closing credits, they mentioned a video, did anyone catch
>    the name and has anyone seen it? What age is it geared for? I'm not
>    sure how much we can teach Spencer at this age (2 on Friday ;-)) but
>    you can bet that when we are in public, I don't take my eyes off of him
>    for a second.

 Was it STREET SMARTS FOR KIDS?  I showed this video to my son about
 5 years ago.  It came from the library.  On a scale of 1 to 10 it was
 about 5.......

 I believe it was in this version of Parenting someone suggested teaching
 older kids to yell "YOU'RE NOT MY *DAD* {or MOM}".  This would probably
 get the attention of other adults who might be able to help.  

 We teach the kids how to dial 911, our phone number and grams and gramps
 phone numbers when they turn 3.

 I agree with Stuart on the OPRAH/Hysteria factor.............

 Rochelle    	

RE: last couple.

	The problem is that we all face that thin line between hysterical
paranoia and loving trust every day and we get worn down when the inexcusable
happens.

	I work under the "I would rather be safe than sorry" theory. If any of
my children (14,13, and 10) are approached by strangers they know to refer them
to an adult they know and trust before befriending them in any way. Should
anyone try the "mom/dad sent me" routine each child has a very special phrase
that they are to say and expect a certain reaction (a sort of password) but they
also know that it is highly unlikely that mom or dad could ever send a stranger
after them. I am especially cautious with my kids because, as a local official
and political activist, my name and face are well known in the area. I have
actually witnessed people I have never met tell my son that knew me well. 
Fortunately my kids are old enough to have some understanding of what's going
on.

	I think back to my own youth in the late 60's and see all the things we
did without even thinking about the potential consequences. I remember 
hitch-hiking to school almost every morning. Can you see anybody doing that 
today? I remember "parental assumptions" about people they hardly knew. The
types of things we worry about today our parents didn't have to worry about. 
While it may well be a sad commentary on the state of society that doesn't make
it any less so.

>	I work under the "I would rather be safe than sorry" theory. 

The problem with "better safe than sorry" is that safety itself has a cost.  My
personal theory is that too much safety is going to extract a psychological toll
over the years.  To be sure, a neurotic child adult is still better off than a
child who never survived to adulthood.  But are 200 safe, but neurotic, adults
better off than 199 unsafe, non-neurotic adults and one child whose parents were
sorry?

I don't know the answer; but I don't think it's so easy to balance a certainty
of being a little sorry against a very slight chance of being very sorry.

	-Neil

I guess that would depend on what level you take the safety to. I don't think
we have to explicitly tell kids not to hitch-hike today. There's too many good
reasons for them not to. If you keep your kids cooped up in the house to 
avoid potential scenarios then you're likely to see the type of issues you
speak of. I certainly don't believe in that but I do believe in teaching kids
to be cautious and to avoid scenarios that may put them in danger. They're
old enough to assess situations and react. But I also know that like anyone else
they're human and are bound to make a mistake now and then. I can't hold them
back from growing up without making mistakes.

    Hmmm, it's because I *want* my children to be independent that I am
    protective of them. I want them to be able to have the skills to say no
    to someone when I am not there. I want them to be able to recognize
    what is right and wrong without having to run it by me first. Through
    my protection, I hope to empower them to live their own lives.

    I do not feel Oprah's show was hysteria, I think it is naive to use the
    "it couldn't happen in our neighborhood" excuse as a reason to not
    take this as seriously as possible. Kidnaping and more prevalently
    molestation can happen *anywhere* at *anytime*. don't you think it
    would be easier to define the rules and boundaries up front in hopes of
    preventing an incident, than after the fact?

    I, personally, consider the *risk* of child "abuse" (abuse meaning
    intentional harm to the child by another) much higher than the previous
    example of leaving a child sleeping in a car and as such intend to take
    appropriate precautions for preventive education in our house.


    				Wendy

Indeed Neil ...

I think we are writing the sad commentary ourselves because of our lack of
trust of strangers.  Heavens, some of the most wonderful people in the
world I have met, I met as strangers ... (ie they weren't introduced to me
by a trusted circle of non-strangers.)

In not trusting others, we are making ourselves insular, and I think it is
this very insularity that goes a long way towards helping promote violent
and other deviant behaviour.

Stuart

    But Stuart, chances are you met the "strangers" as an adult who had
    fine and honed abilities to protect yourself and your boundaries.

    	Children by age and experience do not yet have these skills and as
    such must be protected and *taught*  which I think is the real issue
    here, I don't plan on keeping my kids in a bubble as much as I plan on
    teaching them the skills to be able to walk through what could be a
    mine field.

    				Wendy

    While I'm further toward the go-play-in-traffic than the boy-in-a-
    bubble end of the scale, I do NOT understand this statement:
    
    .40> I don't think we have to explicitly tell kids not to hitch-hike 
       > today. There's too many good reasons for them not to.
    
    I think we DO have to tell kids explicitly not to hitchhike.  I think
    that assuming the *kids* know "there's too many good reasons for them
    not to [hitchhike]" is begging for trouble...
    
    Leslie

>    Hmmm, it's because I *want* my children to be independent that I am
>    protective of them. I want them to be able to have the skills to say no
>    to someone when I am not there. I want them to be able to recognize
>    what is right and wrong without having to run it by me first.

I think that the key is that we want our kids to be independent, not 
paranoid, and not one to take foolish risks.

IF the message is stated too forcefully, the child will not be able to 
recognize right from wrong; there will only be wrong.  All "strangers" are 
bad people, ready to pounce on you and do bad things to you.  And if the 
focus is too much on "strangers", I could easily see a child making the 
incorrect association strangers=bad, non-strangers=good.
 
The Berenstain Bears book on strangers handled this nicely, I think.  After a 
stern, graphic, warning by father, Sister Bear went to the park, a place that 
she used to think was a happy, safe, place.  What she saw was a dangerous 
place, full of sinister characters; even the birds and squirrels looked like 
they wanted to harm her.  Later on, she got a more balance view, and 
prevented her brother from flying a plane with a man he met at the park.  Not 
because the man was a bad person, but because it was a situation that 
warranted caution.

My comments are general only; I did not see Oprah.

Clay    

Leslie,
	My implication is that by the time they are old enough to consider
standing by the side the road with their thumb out they've had the don't
get into car with, don't talk to, don't how to deal with stranger stuff so
drilled into them that they wouldn't consider it. Maybe this is a Northeast
phenomena (because of all the congestion up here) but I can't remember the last
time I saw someone under 21 hitchin' a ride. 

Wendy,

I don;t believe that I have honed my skills of escape at all well, in spite
of my years.  If anything, I'm far less agile today than I was when I first
had kids (getting old ! :-) ), my reactions aren't as good either.

What I have developed is a sense of recognizing what is dangerous and what
isn't and avoiding dangerous situations.  We cannot expect our children to
recognize danger without actually seeing dangerous situations, and to
some extent, encountering at least SOME of them by themselves.  Experience
is, unfortunately, one of the best teachers I've met.

By experiencing dangerous situations, we get to be able to measure the
amount of risk involved.  For example ... if we say "Don't walk down
alleys between buildings downtown", we are certainly keeping our kids
away from risk, but on the other hand there are safe alleys, and unsafe
alleys, and as children grow up, they have no means of distinguishing
the difference.

There are tons of other examples.

We can only teach certain fundamentals in the street proofing of our
children.  There are specifics we can teach to help a child avoid a
situation, or escape from a situation, but there is NOTHING LIKE
experience to help us identify dangerous situations. There are things
like not riding in other peoples' cars that we can deal with easily.
On the other hand, saying such and such a street is dangerous is not
easily dealt with.

I think like all parents we want to pass on as much of teh knowledge we have
gained to our children as we can ... but the trouble is that some information
comes out flawed, like the risk of being kidnapped.  The risk is real, but
the chance is slim.

Jennifer, my eldest, learned about tornados, and saw the devastating effects
of them on TV.  Well, we were driving through some wicked storms across the
prairies on a trip to Colorado ... She was really frightened.  We had to
show her very specifically how low the risk was of being involved with
a tornado ... viz the swath of a tornado is (I forget the actual number)
100 yards wide ... now how far is it across this highway ? ... now how wide
is this countryside ? Now when we drive through this little town here, does
it look like it has been hit by a tornado ?  And so on.  She quickly assessed
the risk as being very small.

Moreover, I don't think that the risks today are dramatically higher than
when we were young.  There were still the flashers, there were still the
"ride in my car" types ... the major difference I see today is publicity.
And especially scare publicity like Oprah, like Geraldo, like Shirley, like
60 minutes and so on.

I really believe (and I have 3 daughters ... so I have a decided interest
here) that we really do run the risk of over-street-proofing our kids, and
that programs like this just make matters worse .. not better.

Stuart

< I believe it was in this version of Parenting someone suggested teaching
< older kids to yell "YOU'RE NOT MY *DAD* {or MOM}".  This would probably
< get the attention of other adults who might be able to help.  

It was in this version, too, and I'm the one who suggested it.  The phrase
that was actually used, and which I recommend for children of *all* ages,
is "HE'S NOT MY DADDY!!!"  This was the phrase that actually saved a girl
from being abducted in the Citadel Mall here in Colorado Springs a few years
ago.  Another little girl had been abducted from the same mall and abused 
several days before that.  When the one yelled "He's not my daddy!" it
attracted lots of attention, and the man got scared and let her go and
he ran away.

      Carol

    Stuart,
    
    	Just curious, who is Shirley? Guess I'm just not up on the Talk
    show scene.
    
    			Wendy
    

    In lieu of having the "actual" experience, don't you think a
    "re-enacted" version is an appropriate teaching tool?

    	I remember drivers education where we saw gory and bloody movies of
    what happened to people who did not wear seatbelts. The message was
    driven home and I did not have to have the actual experience. I never
    drive without my seatbelt on.

    	Likewise, one of the strongest teaching examples I have seen was at
    the college I teach at, they left a crumpled car in the quad with the
    sign that 3 teenagers had died in the car as a result of drinking and
    driving. It was very powerful and I'm sure that it taught without the
    kids having to go through the experience.

    	The show that Oprah did, (I felt) was yet another valuable tool in
    teaching the children through a re-enactment. I am quite certain that
    the children involved in the experiment learned good protective skills
    and I am sure that the children in the audience did as well. I forget,
    Stuart, did you actually get a chance to see the show? Again, I would
    not classify the show as hysteria.

    	Probably the greatest strength of Oprah's show and other's like
    hers is that, well to some degree it does frighten us, but to a greater
    degree, it initiates discussion (like this) from which we can all
    benefit and learn.

    			Wendy 

re: .47

Stuart, your note seems to be extreme in the other direction.

Experience most certainly teaches lessons in a way that's not likely to
be forgotten.  But sometimes the experience has such severe consequences
that it's best not to learn that way.  With your example of dark alleys, you
may learn that a certain alley is unsafe -- by being robbed, beaten, raped,
or murdered.  And what is to be gained by going down dark alleys?  You save
a little time?  That seems to me to be one of those situations that the
potential benefit is severely outweighed by the consequences (the severity
and the probability that the bad even happens), so we just don't do it, even
if it means that we miss out on walking down some dark alleys that are safe.

More appropriate examples, I think, are situations that have an undeniable
good point, but which also have risk.  We know that among ministers and
priests, and Boy and Girl Scout counselors there are child abusers.  But
that doesn't prevent us from sending our kids to church or letting them go
to Scout Camp.  We give them instruction, we take reasonable precautions
(and the more responsible organizations take reasonable precautions also)
and send them off to be an altar boy or to camp.  We know that if a child is
going to be abused, it's more likely that they will be abused by someone
they know.  But that doesn't prevent us from letting them go to visit Uncle
Homer for a weekend, unless we have some reason to suspect Uncle Homer.  We 
know that date rape occurs, but that doesn't prevent us from going out on 
dates or to let our children date.  Once again, we take reasonable 
precautions, then hope that the worst doesn't happen.

I know that this note isn't about child abuse per se, but the same holds true 
for "stranger" type situations.

Clay

Shirley ... obviously not networked south of the border ... but similar to
Oprah and Sally Jesse Raphael ettc...

Oh and no, I didn't see this particular show ... so I canot talk in 
specifics about it ... and I do have to generalize here ... that shows
like Oprah are notorious for sensationalizing subjects.

The problem I'm having in discussing this, and seeking examples and so on
is to find a way of describing the middle groudn that I actually try to
follow.  I cannot take anything I hear or read in the media as gospel fact.
There are many people who will watch Oprah and swear up and down that
the world according to Oprah is the way it is ... everywhere.  These talk
shows are BIG BUSINESS for advertisers, for TV networks, so they will attempt
to gain audience from the "other guy".  A good way to gain audience is by
sensationalizing.  Sensationalizing something has a dramatic effect on the
way we view our world ... it tends to paint a very negative picture of the
things ... often far more negative than it should.

OK, now where does that take us here ... Yes, we need to street proof our
kids.  Yes, it is better to introduce them to the dangers without real
encounters.  BUT when you introduce the concept of danger, you will create
fears in children that you didn't intend to create ... like my daughter and
the tornados.  At the same time we have to live in a real world, we have
to have our world for ourselves, and not the dangerous elements in the
world.  The more we attempt to protect ourselves and our children from the
"bad things out there", the more we stay "safe in here".  This allows more
and more freedom "out there" for the doers of "bad things".

In protecting ourselves, and our children, we are creating a situation where
the affects are cumulative.  At one time, nobody locked their house doors.
Then we started locking the door. Now we have to put deadbots on the doors
and reinforced glass in the windows.  We are building private Fort Knoxes!
And teh MORE we build this privacyand security, the greater the need for it.
One of the very effective burglar prevention programs is Neighbourhood Watch.
It is most effective in neighbourhoods where people don't hide in their houses.
It is least effective in neighbourhoods where you have to undo 6 locks to open
the front door!  Why ?  Becaue people have stopped trusting other people when
they should be.

The idea that strangers are bad really does have a big foothold in society.
Very few strangers, really, are bad.  So you don't trust any stranger, and
consequently they don't trust you.  So why help them when they need your
help ?

By all means observe caution.  But let's have a bit of trust in our fellow
human being ... it may well be rewarded many times over.

Stuart

Over the last few years many of us who write here, especially those who reside
in the 3M area, have had our own lives touched by a number of these tragedies.
In 1985 a young girl disappeared while walking near her home. No trace has
ever been found and any time something remotely close to it happens we are
reminded and think of Sarah Pryor. And six weeks ago another little girl,
Holly Piirainen, disappeared while walking to neighbors house. No trace of
her has been found. I have personally been touched by the tragic death of 2
young children and watched, even 2 years later, the affect is still has on
their classmates and our community. 

Sometimes it has to hit close to home before it becomes real.

> I have personally been touched by the tragic death of 2
> young children and watched, even 2 years later, the affect is still has on
> their classmates and our community. 

Mike, I am not trying to minimize your pain or that of the people of your 
community.  But if it is the incident I am thinking about, isn't one of the 
truly sad things that the alleged perpetrator was not a stranger, and that no 
amount of street-proofing could have prevented the tragedy?

Clay

    .54  That really hit me.
     
    > Isn't one of the truly sad things that the alleged perpetrator ws not 
    > a stranger.
    
      I've had to dodge friends and relatives as a child because my mother
    wouldn't believe they were bad. One uncle that used to come over
    when the parents weren't home. We locked the doors and called him
    names. He would tell his wife, she would call my mother up and we
    would all get punished for being so mean. Well the horrible story
    got out when he was caught raping a 12 year old niece just a few
    minutes after his wife and the mother left him to baby sit. The
    worse part about this was that this niece and many others complained
    about this man. Both his wife and the mother of the girl had heard
    several complaints before the incident and still left the girl (
    against her will) with this perpertrator.
    
    
        Another time was when a friend of my mothers offered to take
    me to where I was to meet a friend. I was 16 at the time. I realized
    we were going in the wrong direction and when I commented he made
    some filthy comments. Then he offered me money. I grabbed the door
    and threatened to jump out, I told him that if I lived I would tell
    the world he was a pervert. If I died he could tell them what he
    wanted I didn't care. He drove me to my friends. I did tell my mother,
    she confronted him, he denied it, she believed him. Case closed until
    he was arrested for attempted rape. Then she believed me. 
    
        So, unfortunately children are at risk in some situation no matter
    what. It could be stranger, but it could also be a friend or relative.
    Someone you would hope you could trust. 
    
        When my children were growing up it was so hard for me. I watched
    every adult I knew that had contact with my children. I made sure
    they knew that no one was to ever touch them. If they were in a 
    situation that they didn't feel comfortable they needed to get away.
    
    
         Rose

RE: .54

	My point was the far reaching affects. While the incident involved
a family member that individual was well known to many children in the community
and they were as much disturbed by the adults action as they were by the loss
of their friends.

    re .55
    
    You point out EXACTLY the thing that is so important and that seems
    to get lost ... just as it did in your description ... Most of these
    incidents occur with people you knew and were supposed to trust.
    
    In fact they were incidents with people you were expected to lay *inherent*
    trust in.  They did not have to earn your trust.  And they abused it.
    
    With a stranger, they must earn your trust, and you will walk away
    very easily if it is violated at an early stage.
    
    The number of cases of anonymous rape and anonymous kidnapping and
    anonymous violence are very very few.
    
    Stuart

    >>The number of cases of anonymous rape and anonymous kidnapping and
    >>anonymous violence are very very few.
    
    Which is one of the reasons we hear so much about them, since they
    are unusual (or course that severly skews our view of the danger to
    our kids in trusting others.....)
    
    Monica

    I think your right on with the statement in .42 Stuart.  I think that
    the word 'excess' should apply though.  That is, EXCESS distrust helps
    promote some of the social ills we see.  I don't know how to define
    what excess IS though.  Yes, everyone I know was at one time a
    stranger.  Most are fine people too.  Wendy you did define the 'catch'
    in the statements about strangers, and that is that kids havn't learned
    the social skills to tell the good ones from the bad ones.  Our job as
    parents is to help them develop those skills.
    
    Jeff

    My babysitters son attends school in Hampstead NH.  The schools
    have just sent home a notice saying that there is a man driving by
    bus stops and exposing himself to young children.  He has been seen
    in Plaistow, Atkinson and Danville...
    
    I don't know if this should go in this particualr note, but I wanted
    anyone that may live in those areas to be aware.  It frightens me.
    
    

Usually an exhibitionist like this is just that ... all his thrills come
from exposing himself.  He will probably get a kick out of kids running
and screaming.  If they all stood there bored ... he'd be too.

Exhibitionists usually aren't molesters ... that is the good news.  The
bad news ... they are usually hard to catch.

Stuart

    
    
    Not sure if this is mentioned already, The Oprah show on strangers
    is being re-broadcast on 12/27.
    
    
    bonnie

    For anyone who didn't get a chance to watch/tape the Oprah
    Show yesterday about luring children away/talking to strangers etc...
    I have it on tape (VHS) and would be more than willing to loan it
    out to anyone.
    
    I have it here in my office in MR01-1/L16
    
    send me mail at TIS::HENDRY if you'd like to borrow it.
    
    Jennifer