Conference moira::parenting

    
    
    	I was in the same boat, but suddenly it didn't bother me to give
    	so much of my self up.. 
    
    	If your not ready wait.. but, in our case we still are not pregant
    	after a year in half the chances of getting pregant in a month is
        5% (how any one gets pregnant is a miracle)
    
    	If you don't want childen don't have them.  There is no written 
    	law that says you have to have them.  Alot of people are decideing
    	not to have them.
    
    	You'll know when it's time.. Its like when you know it's time to 
    	get married - it will just hit you.. 
    
    	Its a really scarey thought having children but, the decision 
    	is really yours and your husbands.
    

    I was also in the same boat as you.  My husband and I live very
    separate lives during the week and barely see each other until the
    weekends.  I am now six months pregnant (unexpectedly, I might add, due
    to known medical problems, I was told I would probably never
    conceive).  I must say, it's amazing how life prepares you for things. 
    For one I have had a very tiring pregnancy, along with medical
    problems.  This has brought my husband and I closer and kept us both
    closer to home.  It's also helped us to prepare more for the upcoming
    birth.  
    
    I believe your priorities change in life.  When you are ready (or not
    !) they will change however you need to change them.  I do agree though
    that it is important to put your husband's and your needs at the top of
    the list.  I am the child of divorced parents due to the fact that my
    parents put 200% of their effort into us and 0% into their marriage. 
    After 23 years of having wonderfully loving parents we were devastated
    to have my parents divorce.  This is one mistake I hope I have learned
    from.  Life is all about balance.  Nothing should have to suffer too
    much if you search out and hold onto a balance in your life !
    

    I think of it as more like a juggling act than a balancing act. 
    Everything's in motion, priorities constantly change, sometimes you
    inevitably drop a ball, but then you scoop it up and keep going.
    
    I used to be very orderly, make lots of plans, spend hours reading, and
    like having things just so.
    
    I still managed to do some reading while I nursed my daughter (not
    everyone can do this), but now most of my reading is a half hour of
    winding down in bed before I sleep.  I haven't read a book since
    vacation in August.  I no longer do crafts and cut way back on the
    cooking and baking.  The house gets dirty until I can't stand it and
    rush around cleaning up.
    
    What saves my attitude?
    
    Laughter.  And love.
    
    I laugh a lot, especially when things are really hectic.  I try to
    always remember my love for my husband and daughter.  
    
    Oh, and I constantly prioritize and adjust as I go.
    
    And I forgive myself when I get stressed out and start yelling.  I'm
    lucky to have a husband who can take over with our active toddler when
    I lose my cool.  We take turns.
    
    I remind myself often that my daughter is only young once, and that
    I'll have years to read books when she is older. 
    
    As for your other point, I am not a "baby person" either.  I only cared
    for other folks babies and toddlers for a few minutes at a time.  It's
    a real cliche, but true, you really fall in love with your own kids. 
    My husband thought I was nuts when I could spend a half hour watching a
    videotape of my baby playing on the floor, that after spending the
    evening with her.  It was fascinating!  Anyone else would compare it to
    watching those security videos at the bank.  :-)
    
    As the previous noter said, you don't HAVE to have children.  What's
    important is to reach an agreement with your husband.  Otherwise it can
    put a big strain on your marriage.
    
    L

    We were married for 5 1/2 years before Sarah was born this past May. 
    Michael was ready from day 1 to have kids but I definitely wasn't.  We
    agreed to wait until we BOTH felt it was right.  I've never been a baby
    person, either, but about 2 years ago a friend of mine got pregnant and
    I couldn't believe how interested I was in her pregnancy and wanted to
    know all the details of how things were progressing (within tasteful
    limits of course).  My husband and I talked it over and decided to
    spend a year saving up so that I could stay home for 4 months without
    putting a strain on our budget and without depleting our savings.  At
    the end of that year we started trying and we are now the extremely
    proud parents of a 7 1/2 month old.
    
    It really does make a difference when that child is your own.  I was
    truly scared how I was ever going to be able to put aside my self
    interests and let the baby's come first.  I shocked the h@ll out of
    myself when I found myself not even thinking twice about doing for her
    first and me second.  I don't even care about the mess of her spitting
    up, or changing those delightful diapers, she's my daughter and I want
    to enjoy every second of being with her which includes the good, the
    bad and the smelly.
    
    I still make time to do my things, like reading, aerobics, I'm just now
    more inventive with my time.  My husband has a harder schedule than I
    do, 50 hours a week at work, school 2 nights a week and then homework,
    but somehow it all falls together.  Sure, it gets downright stressful
    at times, but she's worth it.
    
    As far as our marriage is concerned, we've learned that we HAVE to make
    time for us.  We were determined not to make the baby our only topic of
    conversation and so far we do ok.  As Laura said, it really is a
    juggling act, and the balls are: mom, dad, baby, mom and dad, and
    family, it's up to you to decide which balls have to be up in the air
    at a certain time.
    
    Being nervous or confused is really very normal.  I think there's a
    reason that pregnancy is 9 months long, and that's to help aclimate the
    parents to getting used to the idea and the changes ahead.
    
    If it's something you really want you'll know.
    
    Sorry for being so long winded.
    
    Susan

I can appreciate the feeling about other's children.  My wife can't
understand that I don't want to hold other people's babies.  I can't
explain why.  It is part that I don't want to hurt them and get yelled
at.  And it is part that I am not used to it.

Ed..

re: .0
	 [My husband is]
>        not really scared... he says" if we waited till I was ready, we would
>        never have children".

That certainly was true of us.  And twelve+ years later, I don't regret a bit 
having had them.

re: .5

>I can appreciate the feeling about other's children.  My wife can't
>understand that I don't want to hold other people's babies.  I can't
>explain why.  It is part that I don't want to hurt them and get yelled
>at.  And it is part that I am not used to it.

At the risk of making a sexist statement, that is true of many men.  I have 
held my kids a LOT, but I have no desire to hold anybody else's baby.  In my 
experience, not wanting to hold other people's babies has little or nothing to 
do with wanting or not wanting to hold your own babies.  

Clay

    Well, I don't know! I do agree with the suggestion that you will "just
    know".

    My pet peeve (and I *was* guilty of it, too) is folks that bemoan the fact
    that your life changes after children, and usually followed by lots of
    negatives.

    Well, it does change, no doubt about it. But in my case, for the better!

    Do you and your husband share thoughts/dreams/hopes well? I almost said
    "communicate", but that is not all it is - my wife and I were married for
    3 years and had known each other for four before we had our son. We
    shared a common goal in having a child, had clear ideas on shared
    values on bringing the child up, what we considered important, all
    that.

    We were (and are) determined to *integrate* him into our life, not let
    him rule it. To many of our peers don't seem to set this goal before
    hand. We have always maintained a twice-monthly night-out, starting as
    soon as my wife was rested and healed from the delivery. And I would
    urge you to set the same goal. In fact, we spent a long weekend in
    Bermuda when he was three months old - some people would be shocked,
    but I think it's most important to remember you're a couple first, and
    parents at the same time (figure that one out!). To preserve and
    strengthen our marriage does him a service - he needs a strong role
    model of a couple and shared parenting to grow the way we envisioned it
    happening.

    As for feelings about kids, I can only echo a well worn phrase - you
    feel differently when they are your own.

    Or, maybe you won't!!! It is, most of all, a big adventure. I have grown,
    learned, cried, despaired, and been very happy throughout this
    adventure.

    Of course we are only having one! :-)

    Good luck!

    My 2 cents,

    JR             

I agree with everything said in these replies (except the part about not
wanting to hold other people's babies :-) !!

If I had to sum up parenting in one word, it would be "fascination". Yes,
it is a huge responsibility, but it is definitely a thing of wonder. Once
you get past the initial learning curve on how to care for the child, etc.,
you really start building a relationship more intense than anything you
can imagine.  And the "payback" is enormous when you look at this gift...

If you have a solid marriage and mutual goals, you should have a good foun-
dation for going through the experience of parenthood.  It sounds like you
do have a good partnership and well-thought-out "plan" for how you intend
to handle things together with your husband, so that is a good start. Yes,
you will have to give up a lot of "personal" freedoms, but you will probably
do so willingly once you meet that special new person in your life (and
surely the most beautiful baby you've *ever* seen!).

Since it is probably the biggest decision of your life, you are right to
thoroughly think it through.  But trust in yourself that once you do choose
to have a child, you will be able to handle motherhood as well as the millions
of others who have learned by experiencing it.  And over time, you will be
able to get back into your old interests as the child gains his independence.

Best of luck with determining when the time is "right"!

-Cori

    RE: .0
    
    The decision to have kids is an important one and one that shouldn't be
    made lightly.  Kids are wonderful, as long as they don't dominate. 
    Consistant enforcement of the house "rules" from day 1 will minimize
    any problems in the future.  Most of the families I know that seem to
    think things change for the worse after kids are families where the
    kids have their way almost exclusively.  Perhaps I'm a bit lucky in
    that my wife is a teacher by training so she was used to being
    consistant and in control (only of the kids of course...)
    
    With two at home now and another on the way... I can say that it is
    also not always peaches and cream.  There are good times and bad. 
    Anyone who says different is probably asleep.  For the most part, the
    good far outweighs the bad.  I will admit that there were a number of
    times when I wanted to show both kids the woodstove upclose and
    personal, but I just went out and split wood instead...  But the looks
    you get when you surprize them with your presence at school or when you
    stay home to play is worth every irritating moment.
    
    Dan

My  husband was the one who wasn't really sure about having children, and I
always knew I wanted them.  When we had been married for 3 years, we both
just knew at the same time that the time was right for us to have children.
I think by then my husband felt more settled and secure in our relationship
and we knew children would just enrich it for us.  It ended up taking us
5 years and lots of infertility treatment, but we are now the proud parents
of 19-month-old twins, and we wouldn't go back for anything.  Like a previous
noter said, we just knew we were ready.  

I am also a lot like you in that I like to cook everything from scratch (I
made all the kids' baby food; there's not much I don't make from scratch),
and I do lots of sewing and crafts.  I make most of my own clothes, I've
done all the curtains in the house, and now I make clothes for my kids.  I
found that I have to make time for me to sew, but I do it.  The kids are in
bed by 7:00, so that gives me a couple of hours at night to sew.  Sometimes
my husband will even come in the sewing room to watch TV so we can be
together.  And there are nights when he watches them from dinner time so
that I can start sewing early.  I'm just making Christmas cookies now, and
find the kids are happy to just play in the kitchen as long as I'm in the
vicinity. I made jams this summer.   I've got all the Christmas ornaments made
for this year's gifts.  There are more things I want to do and run out of
time for, but I find that I am able to continue with my hobbies without 
sacrificing time I'd rather be spending with my children.

We also integrated the kids into our life, and didn't stop doing things. We
each took the twins Christmas shopping alone last year, and got lots of
strange looks (especially my husband -- why don't people think men can
do things with their own kids?), and they go most places with us.  We take 
them out to dinner with us, shopping, to the grocery store every week....you
get the picture.  And we don't hesitate to get a sitter to watch them so we
can go out alone.  We have taken the stand that our lives would not change,
we would just need to make some minor adjustments.  We don't plan things
around the kids' nap schedules as they can sleep in the car on the way to
someplace.  And we don't turn down invitations if the kids will be out too
late, we just bring their pajamas and sometimes the port-a-cribs.  There
are ways to adjust, it just takes some creativity and some flexibility, but
it can be done, and it can be lots of fun.

Cathy

Karen,

I felt a lot like you do, back when my wife and I were engaged. I wanted a year
off before having children and I got 15 months. We made the best of that time
and I look back on it fondly. I won't have that kind of time again for another 
16 years 8^).

Pregnancy was wonderful, a time of growing even closer to each other. We made
the best of it by spending most of our spare time together, quality time. This
was good preparation for the future.

Does having children change your marriage forever? Absolutely. Do we have less 
time than before Patrick was born? No doubt about it. Does having a child
affect just about every decision we make? Yup. Why? Because we are now a family.
Our team of two is now a team of three. 

It took a while to get things running in sync. You learn to be a parent the hard
way, by making your own mistakes and learning from them. It is by far the most
difficult thing I've ever had to learn and do but without a doubt the most
rewarding part of my life.

Now that our child is 22 months, we have a little more time for each other. I'm
sure that's partly because we have become more efficient with the spare time.
We always have a night out together every other month or so. My wife works a few
nights a week so Patrick and I have time to build our father-son relationship.
I consider myself very fortunate to have this time with my son.

Even though it would obliterate what remaining spare time we have, I'm ready
for #2. My wife isn't. Just like the old times.

Chris 

    
    
    Karen,  
    
    By reading your note, I interpreted it as you feel this is
    something that you have to do, not want to do.  Children
    are alot of work, and they bring so much to your life.  If
    you want an orderly life, a clean house, time to do your
    crafts, be able to make plans to go off for a romantic
    weekend in a moments notice, then perhaps you should wait
    on starting a family.  There is nothing wrong with feeling
    this way.  I have plenty of friends who do not want children
    and are happy with their lives the way they are.  
    
    You mentioned how you and your husband have talked about
    each having your night to do your own thing, while the
    other takes care of the child.  How you plan to work a
    4 day week and use Mondays to clean your house.  As much as
    one would like to plan their weeks to work like this, it
    doesn't.  Things happen and there are days when it seems
    like you aren't accomplishing what you have set out to do.
    This can cause disappointment and frustration because the
    day is not going the way you had planned.  
    
    If I worked a 4 day week, I would want to use my day off
    to spend with my child.  They grow so fast, every week they
    learn new skills.  Also, it is impossible for me to clean my 
    house when my son is up and about.  
    
    I hope I you do not think I am being hard on you, but your
    note seemed to look at the negative side not the wonderful
    ways that a child can enrich your life.  
    
    Jeanne
    

    
    Karen,
    
    Alot of people have touched on the marriage/time issues that go along
    with having children, so I wont re-touch that, but let me put your mind
    at ease about your apprehension about caring for infants, nerves being
    rattled by toddlers etc.
    
    I think everyone who hasn't been around alot of infants in their life
    are weary of caring for them, but beleive me, I'm sure you'll do
    fine. Alot of women I know, including myself, do alot of reading during
    the 10 mos they are pregnant, and you can just about find all the
    details you need to know about caring for an infant in books. There is
    so much information out there. It may not be the same as experience
    alone, but it helps.  I also was telling a newly-pregnant friend the
    other day, that YOU GROW WITH THEM. I swear thats why god made the
    pattern he did in their growth. Its not like being dropped in with a
    screaming toddler all at once.  When you first get them home, they
    sleep alot, so you have a chance to get adjusted to them and they to
    you. Then as time goes on, things increase, and you learn with them.
    It doesn't all happen over night.  Sure, youre not going to do
    everything perfect (and the biggest thing I've learned is WHOS TO SAY 
    WHATS "PERFECT"), and you'll make your mistakes, but you'll learn from
    them, and from more experienced family and friends that are around.
    
    As far as patience, I think that is also learned. I too was very weary
    and didn't have alot of patience with other peoples kids, but once you  
    have your own, I don't know, something changes. You learn they are
    "little people" and in turn, they become very "interesting" instead of
    just "pestering"...   I don't know how to actually explain it. 
    Its amazing though, it really is. Everything changes inside you once
    you become a parent.
    
    I'm bombed with work, back to it...
    
    Chris
    

    Thoughts on being a mother:

    I had no idea it would require so much responsibility, I still grieve
    for the freedom I had before my son was born.

    I hadn't realized how selfish I was until Spencer came, now when we go
    shopping, it's he that gets the items and not me. The first thoughts
    are not "what do I need" but "what does the baby need".

    I had no idea he would take up so much of my time. I thought that we
    would just add a baby to our life style, I hadn't realized that our
    life style would be adapting to the baby.

    I had no idea that at times, I would actually resent the intrusion of
    this new person and question "what have we done?"

    I had no idea it would take so much energy. I am forever tired and
    long, truly long to stay in bed late on the weekends (late nowadays is
    7:00).

    I also had no idea how much this little person would mean to me.

    I had no idea how much he could and continues to teach me about myself.

    I had no idea how much my values could be challenged.

    I had no idea how much love I could feel for this little person.

    Being human, there are days that I want to give it all back and just
    take off, but for the most part, Spencer has been the greatest gift
    that I have ever received. I freely admit that he is a blessing and
    know that with my husband by my side, we are well on our way to being a
    family, a real family and there is no greater joy and sense of
    centeredness than that.

    				Wendy

    .14
    
    DITTO!

    Add anothr one to the list of being scared. 2 yrs ago when we chose to
    begin a family, my biggest scare was taking care of someone else
    besides myself. I couldn't imagine tending to a baby's every whim. They
    rely 100% on the parent till at least age 1. Now that my daughter is
    2yrs old, it's not so bad, I couldn't imagine our lives without her!
    
    All I know is that to get something you really want, you usually have
    to make sacrifices. For us the only sacrafice was not going out as
    often as we used to, other than that I can honestly say that nothing
    else has changed, to us a child has really made our marrige more
    fullfilling. You will do the same when you feel ready. People are
    starting their families in there mid 40's nowadays! So it's ok to wait.
    
    Sandy 

    My husband and I dated for 4 years, and then were married for 4 years,
    before we had a child.  How did we decide the time was right?  Like
    you, we had our hobbies, our freedom, our trips, etc.  But for the
    last year or so before we got pregnant, we were feeling a sense of
    emptiness and self-centeredness.  I'd come home on a Friday night,
    still with plenty of energy in those days, and we'd talk about our
    weekend plans, but it was with a sense of "so what?" and "what are 
    our lives all about, anyway?"  
    
    I think we needed that time to focus on ourselves, but after awhile we
    were ready to focus beyond ourselves, to give our time and energy
    to something besides our own hobbies and activities.  
    
    This may sound corny, but the other thing was that I felt I had so much
    love to give, with lots left over after all the love I give my husband,
    family, and friends.  
    
    It was these kinds of feelings that led us to starting a family.  
    
    Oh, by the way, I find that I now (our son is 2 years old) have almost
    as much time for cooking (he climbs up on a chair and helps me), and
    for reading (he reads a story book sitting next to me reading my novel
    on the sofa), etc.   
    
    I guess what I'm saying is, although I commend you for taking such a
    practical view of the situation, also consider the emotional view.  
    Do you FEEL like you would love to love a child?  
    
    Jane
                                                       

    My husband and I waited almost 5 years to have a child after we were
    married.  When it came time to think about it, it took alot for my
    husband to make up his mind.  He was an only child and was put through
    alot when his parents got divorced, and he didn't want to bring a child
    into the world and have he/she possibly go through what he did. 
    Finally he made up his mind and we had our son in November of 89.  Alex
    is 3 years old and he is a very loving caring child.  He has been my
    rock since my parents died and I wouldn't trade him for all the tea in
    China.  Yes, I was scared thinking about taking care of an infant. 
    Waking up in the middle of the night to fed and change him and
    comforting him when he has bad dreams.  Know I am so glad that we had
    him.  He helps me cook and when I do my crafts, I give him some scraps
    and let him make his own.
    
    I am sure once you have had your own you will find that this is what
    you really wanted.  But maybe you are one of those people who does not
    wnat kids.  I have friends who have been married for a long time and
    don't want kids, and are happy with their lives.  
    
    My husband is an avid golfer and plays in many turnaments(sp), so in
    the good weather I spend alot of time with my son.  On certain nights
    of the week my husband comes home from work early and my riend and I
    got to the craft store or to the mall to do some shopping by ourselves. 
    This is time that my husband uses to bond with our son.  If it is still
    light out they sometimes go to the driving range and hit golf balls or
    inthe winter they go out and go sliding and make a snowman.
    
    You will see that a child will change your life and belive me it will
    be for the better.
    
    Like one of the previous replies said maybe you should look at the
    emotional side and decide weather you would love to love a child.
    
    
    Liz

	It is largely true, I feel, that if you wait for "the right time",
you'll never have kids.  There will always be one more thing you'll want to
get or do before the bundle of joy arrives.

	As long as you have a stable happy life, there's no "perfect" time
(in real life, anyway.  June Cleaver, RIP!).

	As for being a good mother, I think many new moms, myself included,
have a fantasy about being the perfect mother-  doing all the right things
so our kids will grow up perfectly adjusted.  There's a term I've seen,
which I like alot (relieves alot of maternal guilt) called the "good
enough mother".  That means that you give your kids the love and care they
need, and do the best you can, and don't beat yourself up when you fall
short of the Donna Reed/June Cleaver model (or whatever your benchmark is).

	Many of the previous noters talked about parenting as a process -
juggling, balancing, changing priorities, setting goals, defining
standards, all that stuff.  And all of that describes, in my experience,
the act of parenting.  You decide how you'd like it to be (time for self,
time with others, etc), plan, and adjust as you go.

	The one thing I'd like to suggest, though, is to limit your
expectations for your one day off.  It sounded to me like you were setting
your goals a bit high for a single day off while caring for a baby.  It
takes alot out of you, and you may find yourself tired long before your
list is done.

	I work a 4-day work week (36 hours) so that I can have Weds. off
with my toddler and to drive my older son (10) to after-school activities.

	Invariably I felt compelled to do as many household chores and
errands as I could, and ended up spending little time one-on-one with my
baby.  Plus, the demands of a baby wanting my attention and whose needs
didn't necessarily coincide with the nice little schedule I'd set up made
it impossible for me to get done anywhere near as much as I'd hoped.

	I have since reset my priorities (children) and decided that some
things just weren't worth the frustration (housework).  It work for me,
although I'm not any less exhausted (just less frazzled and frustrated).

~Caryn



	

    
re: all

Thank you all for your responses.  I'm sorry I didn't get back sooner but
we had a baselevel to complete and I was just too busy.

On the whole, your responses were very encouraging.  Some of you questioned
whether I wanted children just because it seemed the thing to do.  I can
answer that by telling you that I KNOW that I want to have children and 
am as ready as I'll ever be.  I can't really explain it but the maternal 
instincts are kicking in.  I don't feel complelled to do it because of our 
parents or by society...  parenthood is something that I really want to 
experience.  I know that in my note I ignored the positive aspects of
parenting but I am aware of them... and your replies have helped me to 
become even more aware.  

I'm happy to know that I am not alone in finding children somewhat annoying.
At least 1/3 of the responses I got were from other people who were not
a "baby person" either.  They (You) adusted and have helped me realize
that I too will adjust.  I was afraid that I might not be able to change 
that aspect of my personality.  

I wish I could reply to all of your helpful responses individually.  I've
been reading them over a second time and there is so much I'd like to say
in response but it would take me the next 24 hours to do so.  I can reply
to some of you who said particularly helpful things to me.

Re: EMDS::CUNNINGHAM 

>>    I also was telling a newly-pregnant friend the
>>    other day, that YOU GROW WITH THEM. I swear thats why god made the
>>    pattern he did in their growth. Its not like being dropped in with a
>>    screaming toddler all at once.  When you first get them home, they
>>    sleep alot, so you have a chance to get adjusted to them and they to
>>    you. Then as time goes on, things increase, and you learn with them.
>>    It doesn't all happen over night.  

	Your reply was among the most helpful in "waking me up".  You have 
	helped me to understand that having children is a growing experience... 
	and that I won't have to be able to adjust to toddlers overnight!!

re: GAVEL::SATOW

>>not wanting to hold other people's babies has little or nothing to 
>>do with wanting or not wanting to hold your own babies.  

	Your comment made me start thinking about something.  At the
	risk of sounding stupid, the closest I've ever come to being
	a parent is owning cats.  I have two cats and they are my babies... 
	I can spend hours watching them and love to tell people about 
	their antics.  Yet other peoples cats do not hold my attention
	for long and stories about them quickly bore me.  I'm beginning to
	realize that I will probably be like that about my own children.

RE: NEST::JRYAN

>>    My pet peeve (and I *was* guilty of it, too) is folks that bemoan the fact
>>    that your life changes after children, and usually followed by lots of
>>    negatives.

	I think that this is what got me so scared in the first place.
	Friends and family alike were bombarding me with the negatives
	of parenting once they found out we would soon be trying.  

re: SUPER::WTHOMAS

>>    Thoughts on being a mother:

	I've been sitting at my desk for 5 minutes trying to think of what 
	to say in response but keeping changing my mind.  You really got
	me quite excited about experiencing this "great gift"... thank you.  

re: VERGA::STEWART "Caryn"

>>	The one thing I'd like to suggest, though, is to limit your
>>expectations for your one day off.  It sounded to me like you were setting
>>your goals a bit high for a single day off while caring for a baby.  It
>>takes alot out of you, and you may find yourself tired long before your
>>list is done.

	Actually, in my basenote, I had stated that I would use that
	day off for SOME of the house chores.  I have every intention
	of hiring somebody to come in and clean on the day I am home
	which will be Mondays.  That just leaves me with cooking, laundry, 
	and shopping, much of which I may accomplish over the weekend.

	Somebody else questioned how I would get my one night out a week,
	especially since the other nights I wouldn't get home till 6:30
	or so anyhow, and you're right...  I need to rethink this.  But
	I know that I need some "me" time ... with my husbands help, I
	hope to manage it.

Since I wrote this the basenote, I've been carefully examining my leisure 
time to see how long I spend on average each doing the things I enjoy.  
I realized that most (75%) of the crafts I was involved in this past year were
Xmas gifts made in the past three months.  If I were to average it out, 
I probably spent 2 hours per week on crafts.  I'm sure that I can squeeze 
that sort of time into my schedule when I have children, especially since 
this is the last year that I'm making gifts for so many people.  

As far as my other leisure activities go, if I can read for 1/2 hour before 
bedtime, I'll be happy.  Cooking... well, I've always said that I love to 
cook but I have begun to realize that it isn't the cooking I love, but 
the eating.  I'll just have to learn to become a more efficient cook, 
choosing quicker recipes and freezing casseroles.  

I think it will be useful to me to continue to analyze my free time to
figure out if there are other ways of doing things more efficiently.  One 
idea I had was doing major grocery shopping once a month (with quick stops 
once a week to pick up the perishables).  

Well, I could just keep going on but I'd best end it here for now.  In less
than a month, we start trying to make babies... I hope to have some good
news for you some time next year.

Thank you all for your input.  

Karen

    re: negatives from others
    
    There are a surprising number of people who are absolute clods about
    this. My wife and I had a running joke for a couple of years starting
    when she was pregnant with our first (we have 3, up to age 8, now).
    Someone would say, "Oh, you're pregnant, how are you feeling?"
    "Wonderful" "Oh, well just wait until the 2d trimester...". Later in
    the pregnancy: "How's it gone?" "Fine". "Well, just wait til you have a
    newborn; you won't get a minute's rest". A month after the birth it
    becomes "Wait til you he can sit up and grab things", then "Wait til
    he's a toddler and can get away from you" (to my mind the most idiotic
    comment -- the greatest thrill is to see this seminal stage of
    independence), etc until the deeply despondent nay-sayer is warning you
    about teenage pregnancy and drug-taking.  Just smile and look at them
    like you think they're looney (which they are).
    
    I commend you for taking your fears seriously, and I agree with those
    who say that not all people should have children. But I am happy that
    you are sure you do indeed want children. Short of meeting my wife,
    they are the best thing that ever happened to me. I do also recommend
    that you think about tempering your obvious strengths at organization.
    Rigid organization in a "childed" house is a disaster. Ad-hoc
    organization (the juggling, able-to-do-several-things-at-once style so
    aptly described by several here) is essential, so, in my opinion, you
    need, for your own sake, to work yourself into a someone more mellow
    and fluid type of organization.
    
    Good luck. Your self-questioning and thoughtfulness suggest you will be
    a great parent.
    
    Kit

    I agree with what Kit said so very well in .21 -- your thoughtfulness
    will help make you a good parent, as will added flexibility.
    
    How did I know when I was ready to have children? I didn't know.
    In fact, I would still be thinking "Should I? Shouldn't I? When 
    should I?..." but for the fact that my husband was (and is) much 
    more certain and decisive than I. He wanted a family. I worried,
    wondered, thought, planned, questioned, organized, analyzed.
    He said: Now's a good time.  
    
    So now we have two, a three year old and a six month old. I love
    them dearly.
    
    My free time is no longer free -- my pottery gets done
    in the middle of the night, I don't get to read novels very often,
    most of the things I cook get cooked in one pot. In the meantime,
    the house doesn't get cleaned, I do two loads of laundry every evening
    just to keep up (clothes are getting worn right from the laundry
    basket more and more)... my standards are getting more substandard.
    It doesn't look like I'm going to write the great American novel 
    this year. I used to waste a lot of my time; sometimes I wish I 
    had my time back to waste it again.
    
    I don't think I am ready to have children. I will never be ready 
    to have children. Ah, but they have me. They have me, heart and soul.
    (Which means that I'm ready.)
                                     -Barbara

    Hello,
    
    I need some help...
    My husband and I have start discussing having childern.  
    The question that I have is what to discuss?  We both
    know we want them, but I feel that I need more information
    then just wanting to have them..
    We'd like to take everything into consideration...so
    what topics did you dicuss before you had childern and
    what did you wish you talked about after you had them?
    Any literature that could help that you'd recommend would
    also be helpful....
    
    Thanks for your inputs,
    
    Renee, who's dreaming of kids....  8*) 

    Renee,
    I think the mos important question you have to discuss is : do we
    really want children.
    We've started "thinking" about being parents when I was deep into 6th
    or 7th month. The thing that bothered us was "are we responsible enough
    to raise kids". We both think that giving life to someone is easy (for
    those who can),and any creature on earth has the potential of doing it.
    But what's next? how is it going to affect our lives? how are WE going
    to affect its life?. 
    Looking back, I think I am quite responsible (although times will
    tell..) and I do not feel "attached to home". If we have plans-we go
    with that plan and having kids had NEVER kept us from doing something.
    You should also consider that it's having a third person in the house,
    and it affects (for better or worse-this is soemthing you have to look
    into) your "coupleness" (is there such a word in English?)
    You should also ask yourself if you have the financial means for it. In
    my case there was no such question-but it IS something you have to
    consider.
    I guess other people have other thoughts.
    IN any case-whatever you decide-make sure you are 100% ok with it.
    Good luck.
    Rivka
    

    If you have friends who had small children, go and visit them - or
    have them over for dinner. Observation can be a big eye-opener to what
    parenthood entails. Its almost difficult to give a good picture without
    getting into the experience.
    Rivka does touch on some big points - 
    - Responsibiliity - That little person's wellbeing is TOTALLY in your
      hands. That's a big deal. 
    - Relationship - it can be and will be at certain times, a strain on
      your relationship (lack of sleep can make a real monster out of many
      people 8-) ).
    - Baby overhead. For the first few years you will have to add extra 
      work and time to almost every action, from your regular evening
      duties to preparing for an outting. 
    
    Only you know if you are ready - keep your eyes and ears open - the 
    world around you is full of info on being a parent; it'll give you the 
    hints and information you need to see if this is right for you.
    
    No doubt though, they are WONDERFUL!
    
    Trust me - I am saying this in the middle of "morning sickness" nausea.
    Must be true!
    
    Monica

    One of the things that we really didn't take into consideration was the
    cost of day care.  I knew I was going back to work and had made
    arrangements for a family member to take care of Lindsey which, 
    unfortunately, fell through one month before I was to go back to work. 
    
    We hadn't bothered to shop for daycare because we thought we were all
    set.  Make sure that you can financially afford a child.  Love is
    wonderful, but it can't buy the food.  Having a baby added between
    $15-$30 per week to the grocery bill, between the formula, diapers, 
    then food.  It was a large expense but I wouldn't trade it for the world, 
    the rewards are really well worth it.  
    
    Lisa Cozzens
    226-7187, Netwks::Cozzens

My wife and I had a long discussion before we decided to have kids.  
Both of us had careers, but we decided that one of us was going to be a 
full-time parent and stay home with the kids until they reach at least 
school age.

The reason we did this is that both of us had absent fathers.  My dad 
was in the military and was often not home and my wife's father was 
president/CEO/CFO of several companies and was always away on business.

We determined that my wife would give up her career for the time being 
and we would forgo $25K+ cars every few years and the huge $200K+ house 
and resultant mortgage.  We simply felt that it was more important to 
have a parent with the kids during their formative years than to have 
a lot of material possessions.

Both of us know couples who work full time and send their kids to day 
care or have nannies.  They get to spend maybe two or three hours with 
their kids each day (if that) and we've asked ourselves, "Why do these 
people even bother having kids; they hardly spend any time with them?"

While it may not be for everyone, I think we made the right decision.

					John G.

What we had to look at, after agreeing that we WANTED a child, and
that the responsibility. money, etc. weren't an issue, and then having
our daughter, was our "lifestyle".  By that, I mean, what's our daily
schedule, what are our weekly/monthly events and activities, what are
we really committed to doing and what can we give up without feeling
deprived or imprisoned.  It took us a few years to deal with most of
those things, since we had tended to be very spontaneous about travel,
and the types of activities we participated in weren't conducive to
bringing an infant or toddler to (some were, some weren't).

I hope this helps.

bruce

Having just completed our first year as parents, here are my thoughts:

Lifestyle was the biggest change we encountered.  We no longer go out
at the drop of a hat.  EVERYTHING takes at least 1.5 times as
long as it used to.  Time alone together doesn't happen spontaneously
too often.  (We now have a standing arrangement with a sitter each Friday.)
I now cherish my 15 minutes alone each night to take a shower.

I agree to spend time with other people who have children.  If you have
a brother or sister with young kids, try to stay overnight!  A few days
will give you a good flavor of what it's like.  I did find, though, that
my level of patience is about 50 times greater for my own child than
for other people's children.  (Must be hormones or something.)

Just as in marriage, there will be times when you wonder why you
got into this.  Expect that.  It passes as soon as your little one
beams up a smile at you, or runs to greet you at the door.

    I'm a planner more than my husband so I made sure we discussed all the 
    topics discussed here before we planned our Daughter.
    
    The one thing that I think is important is to have a very strong,
    secure, loving & supportive relationship with your spouce.  Because in
    the early months you'll need to know that strength between you is there
    because there's ususally isn't alot of romantic time.  
    
    I have the worlds greatest husband/friend who is the best Daddy!!  We
    were both raised totally differently, so we talked about how we would
    handle the daily in/outs or parenting ahead of time...because we were
    coming from parent of 2 different generation.  I think that
    everything has worked out better than I could have dreamed, but I do
    think that's it all mostly due to that fact that we really talked about
    all the issues (biggest being daycare).  We both really wanted Natasha
    at the time we conceived.
    
    I think you have to be a person who's not selfish, but know how to take
    care of yourself (eating, rest, fun,...).  I think the right time to
    have a child is when you've done all the things you want to do for you
    and you're ready to move onto a new life.  
    
    When we moved last January my sister-in-law sat for our Daughter the
    entire day/early evening and she came home totally wiped and said....how 
    do you guys do it.  She now has no false expecations of parenting, so
    they're holding off a year or two on their baby plans.
    
    I knew I would love our child, but planning a child I had no idea of the
    itensity of my feelings for her.  This hit me when Natasha was 1 day old 
    and I knew her cry from my hospital room....I went into the nursery and
    she was crying and had a little puss in one eye...I felt my heart sink
    as I tried to get the attention of a nurse to attend her as I didn't
    know what was wrong (just a blocked tear duc)...at that moment I felt
    I'd protect her and love her for life.
    
    Just a tidbit of my experiece
    Robin

	I don't recall doing any specific planning before having our
	first child.  We both knew we wanted children, and had known it
	before we got married.  So sure, we talked about kids and what
	was important to us when raising them, but once we both felt ready
	(which happily was about the same time for both of us), we did.

	I knew there would be adjustments, but I get frustrated many times
	when I hear people go on and on about the big changes.  I guess I've
	just never been so set in my lifestyle that a little adjustment
	here and there has mattered much.  I can say it's the wisest decision
	we ever made - my daughter has brought us constant joy, and I can't
	imagine not being a mother.
	
	I'm not sure I agree with the suggestions to visit someone who has
	kids and use that to determine your readiness.  If you do, I'd say
	visit LOTS of kids, especially very young babies.  One child does not
	represent all kids, and if you visit the wrong one, you may never have 
	kids ;-) !  Seriously, though, kids don't arrive running, jumping,
	talking (back!).  As they grow, you grow, and I think the energy
	and patience develop more over time, too.

	Karen

    Karen's remark about seeing them and then not wanting kids brings
    to mind the same thing that the note on epidurals brought back
    (some one talked about anxieties in relation to having the 
    prenatal class discuss epidurals).
    
    After some of the sessions of OUR prenatal class (when I was pregnant
    the first time) I remember telling my husband that they should give
    these courses to young teenage girl and boys - it'll be such an 
    eye opener that they won't want to take the risk to get pregnant!!!!
    
    So, don't attend a prenatal class before your pregnant! ;-)
    
    Monica

    
    And to further this rathole:
    
    	Regarding seeing them and not wanting kids:
    
    	Marc and I were all set to wait until Spring to start trying to get
    pregnant but then we went to a friend's birthday party in November and
    her three (very young) grandchildren were there and they were oh, so
    darn cute,....
    
    		Spencer was conceived the next month ;-)
    
    				Wendy

    I don't know if I'd agree with a previous reply that said you should
    make sure you have done everything you want to do in life before you
    move on to a new life of parenthood.  I have one child and another
    on the way, and I still have dreams and plans on things I will embark
    on once they are older.  My independent, exciting life didn't end when
    I became a Mom, it just got put on hold for a while.
    
    Also, I used to spend a lot of time with my young nephew and niece 
    before I had my first child.  Although I loved them dearly, my nephew
    and niece often "got on my nerves".  I was afraid that I would be
    equally bothered by my own children when they were the same age.  
    But that hasn't happened.  Parents and children gradually learn to
    "fit" together comfortably in a way that an adult visiting a child
    can not do.  So if you go visiting families with children and find
    yourself exhausted or annoyed by the other children, don't take it
    as a sign that you will feel this way with your own children.
    
    Jane
    

I think the most important question to ask is
why do you want them? Because you're supposed
to?  Because you don't know what else to do?
Because you really love spending time with
little self-centered kids?  What do you think
*you* will get from it?

There are so many reasons to have kids, and just
as many not to.  The best thing to do is to
understand your motivations for having them.
Everything else is just the details - money,
time, lifestyle, etc - they can all be worked
out somehow.

I am *still* not sure why I had kids.  But
I do not doubt it was the best thing I've
ever done.

Pat

  >    on once they are older.  My independent, exciting life didn't end
  >    when I became a Mom, it just got put on hold for a while.
    
    I feel as though my independce won't start until all my children have
    left the house.  This has been my experience in watching my parents. 
    My little brother just got married and my parents are just starting to
    do big projects that interest them.....they always did a yearly Feb. trip
    someplace tropical, but that was all they ever did for themselves.
    
    
    

    I think it's all up to you,how independent you are while having a
    family. If you are not a "night bird",there is no reason to feel sorry
    for not being able to be one when you have kids. I for example,am not,
    so I don't really miss "night life". I used to take craft courses
    before the kids were born, and I stoped about 2 1/2 years ago because
    of the war (gulf,remember?). I then went back to the courses,with one
    change- I now take evening sessions and not afternoon,but I still enjoy
    it. I even drive 60km each way twice a month for a course I really
    like. My hubby is really "for it" and gives me a hand,so I don't feel
    "bonded".
    Same for school. If you both share the household and the "kids stuff"-
    no reason why you can't go. Same for trips,etc. It's all up to you. I
    see my mom,and take an example (she raised 3 on her own,worked full
    time,kept a lovely house,and still had time to do whatever she wanted
    to-study,go out etc)
    The rest is really all technical details.
    r/ 

    I agree with Rivka - it all depends on your particular life style
    and how changes (big or slight) you have to make with kids effects you.
    We didn't go out much anymore since we moved away from Montreal and
    all the friends that we used to go out with. Up until now we have not
    had to hire a babysitter (outside of our regular care giver each day)
    to go out. Once in a while when we are with Charlotte's grandparents
    we sneak out to a movie (maybe twice a year). For visits or dinners out
    we take her along. 
    My parents don't strike me as anymore "independant" than when we were
    adult children living with them. They have always enjoyed going out
    with friends or doing family outtings.
    
    Monica

    We've always been home-centered people rather than night lifers, so
    there hasn't been much to give up in that direction.  We do do a lot of
    backpacking, camping, and trout fishing, and with a few adjustments the
    kids can come along.  We no longer do 20 mile marathons into the back
    country, but in Colorado there are adequate trout-filled lakes and
    streams within 5-10 miles of most of the trailheads.  Atlehi was in two
    wilderness areas before she was 3 months old, and Carrie has racked up
    many miles under a light pack, as well as having been carried into
    several wilderness area before she could walk.  Lolita didn't have a
    lot of interest in camping as a child, but my parents were in good
    enough health, and enjoyed her enough that this wasn't a problem.  
    
    I've never had a problem with children and gardening, they learn to
    help and also learn something about their place in the food chain when
    I garden.  
    
    I guess the one thing we miss is alone for the two of us time.  After
    19 years of raising kids, it would be nice just to take off
    spontaneously somewhere.  Oh well, mabe in another 19, right?
    
    Meg

    Well, for me I always knew I wanted kids.  I was very disappointed when
    I found out it took two to have them.  I married at 27 and had my first
    within that first year.  It was tough at first, but since this was my
    lifelong dream, I knew it was right.  My husband and I had alot of
    changes to go thru that first year (that was 9+ years ago) and becasue
    we had a commitment to each other, we stuck with it.  My kids are the
    best thing that ever happened to me.  My relationship with them is
    great and I look forward to the future.  I would have liked to be a
    stay at home mom with a bunch more - but maybe my sanity would have
    been lost long ago.  I am very pleased with the decisions we/I made. 
    By the way - if I had waited for my husband to decide to have kids -
    I'm not sure we would have had them for a VERY long time.  However, he
    is glad we did when we did.  Sometimes you gotta go with the gut
    reaction!  If you have a real honest commitment to your marriage and a
    family, it will cement things for you.  It is well worth it!
    
    -sandy
    

    On the flip side of .40, my husband was the one who wanted kids right
    away while I wanted to wait a couple years. He was patient (most of the
    time) and we enjoyed each other (no kids) for awhile. We did things
    that would much more difficult if impossible with a child. We went on
    a couple of vacations, we went out together alot (movies,dinner,etc),
    and we built a house (we did some of the work ourselves). 
    
    When I was ready as well as my husband, we both agreed to have a baby.
    I think you MUST be in agreement about this. After going through it, I 
    know I would have been resentful toward Tim if he had pressured me into
    starting a family before I was also ready.  
    
    As people have mentioned, having a baby is disruptive to your marriage.
    You will be tired sometimes, you will disagree on parenting, you will
    have less intimate time together, you will not be the center of each 
    others lives anymore. You will have another person around who needs you
    and who takes up alot of your time. But if it's what you both want,
    there's absolutely nothing like it. 
    
    The important thing is that we were both ready, we both wanted a baby.
    And it's worked out well for us. I'm very glad we waited and I'm very  
    glad we have Andrew. :-)