Conference moira::parenting

    
    I went to Jr. High in 1972-73 and I never got detention.  You had to do
    something fairly serious to get it.  Like being late to class more than
    3 times without a note from parents or another teacher; cutting class
    altogether, fighting, smoking, etc.  
    
    I think giving detention for something as petty as not being in your
    seat when the door closed is silly. (What happens if you do something 
    serious like fighting?)  Especially since she was not horseplaying or
    standing around chatting but doing a legitimate task (sharpening pencil).  
    Does this teacher also have a rule that you can't sharpen pencils during
    class?
    
    So what if no one has ever complained before? (That sounds like the
    typical British remark. :-)) The only thing that proves is that no one
    ever complained before.  It doesn't mean everything was tickety-boo.
    
    If someone had given my son detention for something like this I would
    have shredded the teacher, the principal, the school board and anyone
    else I could find! Maybe I expect too much intelligence from teachers.
    
    I think it would be worth finding out just how many students get
    detention per week and what all the offenses are that warrant
    detention.  Do the teachers make up these rules on their own?  Does the
    school make the rules and are they written down?  We always got a
    rule book when I was in school and knew exactly what the penalty was
    for any infraction or multiple infractions.  I think it is worth
    working on this with the school.
    
    LaDonna
    

    I was the first (and probably last) student to get a detention in my
    grammar school. (yes, I was a brat). The infraction was talking in the
    hallway between classes. the class we were waiting for was held up and
    we all started talking, I was the one who was singled out.

    Not knowing any better, I said nothing and stayed after school for the
    hour. Apparently the teacher did not like me and for the last fifteen
    minutes of the detention she kept her face very close to mine and kept
    telling me what a terrible person I was and when I tried to ignore her,
    she told me "that I ought to slap that look right off of your face".

    Of course being the brat that I was, I told her to "go ahead because if
    she did, my father would sue her" (there were lots of school punishment
    law suits going on at the time). She let me go and I learned, not that
    talking in the hallway was bad but that this teacher was *dangerous*
    and to stay away from her.

    Given that experience of a teacher using detention for her own good and
    not for "teaching me". I would be very reluctant of my child going to
    detentions without specific stipulations.

    There is a fine line between the school punishing your child and you
    punishing your child. I believe that all children should be accountable
    for their actions but when the punishment is served because the teacher
    does not like the student, of because the teacher has a head ache that
    day or for whatever reason then the lesson is lost.

    I also believe that the school has no right to keep your child after
    the regular school hours. We enter our children into a school using a
    contract of sorts (start time is and end time is) this becomes
    especially important when both of the parents are working. A detention
    is a break in that contract and causes (as you pointed out) a lot of
    shuffling about.

    Instead of a detention, I wonder if I could make it known to the school
    that I refuse (under any circumstances) to have my child detained after
    school and that instead I would arrange a meeting with the instructor
    and principle to discuss the infraction (during the day). This would
    allow all sides to present their case and it would allow my child to
    learn that punishment is something that is given when it is deserved
    and not arbitrarily. 

    If my child were found "guilty" (heaven forbid ;-))then we could all
    decide on a fair punishment. I think that with a public forum such as
    this, the crime would less likely be repeated then if my child were
    allowed to stew about what he thought was an unfair punishment.

    Perhaps I'm being too idealistic, but when the time comes, I am
    prepared to stand up to the school system for what I think is the right
    thing to do.

    				Wendy

    Unless the school has a full complement of "late buses", every day, to
    deliver kids who participate in intramurals or who have detention, then
    the school has no right to issue spontaneous detentions (IMNSHO!).
    
    In the mid '60s Middletown Township HS in New Jersey had the late-buses
    scheme, so I know there's a precedent.  (I also know that the school
    system in my current town is forcing elementary school kids to walk 
    1 1/2 miles on no-sidwalk roads, so they'd probably roll over and
    scream at the idea of adding another shift of buses.)
    
    Whatever happened to reflecting misdemeanors/behavior problems in the
    kids' *grades*?
    
    Leslie

    I got a big chuckle out of Wendy's retort to the detention teacher.
    Brat or not, at least you weren't intimidated by a bully!
    
    My husband spent a lot of hours in detention in jr. high. What a waste
    of time. If a kid really needs discipline, why not find something more
    productive for her/him? All it seems to do is cement kids and teachers
    into an adversarial relationship.
    
    Lucy

As a school board member here's my cut at detention:

	Detention should be used as a tool to establish discipline within the
classroom and the school. Teacher's must set the rules and the kids must adhere
to them. School-wide rules should be printed in a student/parent handbook along
with the consequences of breaking the rules. In the larger context the 
infraction of the rule in .0 might seem petty. However, I think I'ld like to
hear the other side first. Was the rule set down at the beginning of the year?
Was the rule set down because students were being disruptive at the beginning
of classtime? Many times teachers will set rules in order to correct a problem
that is general in nature. Even though your child may not have been among
those initially causing the problem the teacher can't let you child break the
rule without dishing out the appropriate punishment or there'll be 30 other
kids screaming that so-and-so didn't get detention. 8th graders are tough. They
always push the limits and thus through experience the staff may be setting 
stricter limits than you may feel is necessary for your individual child. I
would check first with the class teacher who gave the detention and get his/her
side of the story. If their answer did not satisfy you then I would go to the
principal. There are teacher's who use detention to "punish" kids they don't
like. It's unfortunate but it happens. Fortunately, they are few. In terms of
"screwing up your life" by giving same-day detention, I would think a late bus
would be sufficient. However, in the event of after school activities, I would
let the teacher and student work out an appropriate compromise. Most teachers
I know understand that there are other things going on in a students life and
are willing to accomodate them within reason. 

Mike

    > Most teachers I know understand that there are other things
    > going on in a students life and are willing to accomodate them
    > within reason. 
    
    Maybe I've been unfortunate in the teachers I've known, but I
    never had a teacher who was like this, and neither have my kids. 
    I've had some who saw reason when I as a parent spoke to them, but
    none who would pay the faintest attention to the child's request.  
    The standard answer is, "You should have thought of that before
    you broke the rule."
    
    And with the preponderance of working parents, unplanned same-day
    detention is not reasonable under any circumstances.  Even a late
    bus doesn't help if I find myself at home wondering where the heck
    my child is and what happened to keep him off the bus he's
    supposed to be on.  First of all I'd panic and then I'd be
    furious.  If I know he's going to be late I can at least work an
    extra hour. 
    
    --bonnie
    

	In addition to the comments about detentions with no warning, I have 
a problem with how the time was used.  I thought writing, "I won't dip Betty 
Sue's pigtail in the inkwell" 4,578 times went out with raps across the 
knuckles with 18 inch rulers.  That's incredibly petty, and inconsistent with 
guidelines for effective discipline.  You'd think that the "punishment" if 
there needs to be any would be more related to the crime (making her sharpen 
100 pencils sounds kind of silly, but consirably less silly than what she 
did), or at least semi-productive (like assigning extra work, or making her 
help the teacher with some tasks).  However from your earlier description of 
your daughter, she might actually ENJOY that, so I guess that would be 
unacceptable.
	I asked my daughter about this last night (7th grader, same school). 
She said detention was primarily for kids who didn't have their homework.  I 
asked her about detention for not being in your seat on time, and she said 
you'd have to be pretty late -- several minutes.  I mentioned about the 
situation in the base note, and she said "With eighth graders, they're wicked 
strict."  The other night, at "back to school night," I noticed in one of the 
classrooms there was a list for detention that had several names on it, so I 
don't think that it's rare.  (And I also think it was bad form to leave the 
names up on the board during a "back to school night").
	Finally Radia, I'm happy to see a note from you again, so I can say 
congratulations.  I was forwaded a mail message about DATA COMMUNICATIONS 
magazine having compiled a list of the top 20 people who have shaped the 
computer networking industry, and the list included your name.  It was a very 
impressive list, including Ken Olsen, Judge Harold Greene (presiding judge in 
the AT&T litigation), and Bob Metcalfe, the primary developer of Ethernet, 
and the founder of 3COM.

Clay Satow

    I asked Steven's best friend's big sister, who's in 7th grade,
    about practices in Nashua, and she said you don't get detention
    for a first offense unless it's really serious -- usually it's
    name on the board, and then an in-class disciplinary action (like
    spending lunch in the library or something), and only on third
    offense in the same day, or sometimes week, do you get detention. 
    And it's usually the day after, not the same day. 
    
    This is what I remember from Kat's school days too. 
    
    If I got an automatic detention on the first minor offense of the
    day, I'd be real tempted to be really bad for the rest of the day. 
    I mean, I'm already being punished.  May as well earn it, huh?
    
    --bonnie

RE: .6+

	I agree that the child should be allowed to notify the parent that they
will not be home as they must serve detention. Different systems do different
things. I'm not sure I'm that concerned about a thirteen year old missing the
bus. Then again I'm not sure we have the same circumstances either. My thirteen
year old walks to school. My twelve year old can walk if necessary. I still
contend that discipline in the classroom results in a better learning 
environment and thus the need for the teacher to assert authority over the 
class. When a teacher oversteps the bounds of that authority or is petty in
his use of disciplinary measures he erodes discipline as much as the teacher
who doesn't assert authority at all. I'm still concerned you're asking your
children for their interpretation of policy. I'ld ask the principal for
a copy of the policy. If there isn't a written policy I'ld be knocking on
the door of school committee members real quick.

    Mark, 
    
    Yes, it makes all the difference in the world if your child can
    walk home through a safe neighborhood to a safe house.  My parents
    used to have to make an 8-mile trip to get me when a teacher
    imposed arbitrary detention.  
    
    And make no mistake, unless the  teacher in question is an
    anal-retentive martinet, such extremely rigid discipline is
    imposed arbitrarily.  The quiet, good students from good
    neighborhoods are often allowed the benefit of the doubt, and the
    poor students, or the ones who have had detention before, or the
    ones who have different personal styles, will be the ones who get
    detention.  
    
    (Some unnamed children of my acquaintance have a new game called
    "Get Allen" [not his real name.]  In first and second grade, Allen
    had some troubles with personal discipline and getting along with
    other kids.  He seems to be better, but now he has a reputation,
    so the other kids set him up -- they don't even have to lie about
    it because when a disturbance breaks out and Allen's involved, the
    teacher sends Allen to the principal's office without even asking
    what happened.) 
    
    And it seems to me that if the children who are most affected
    don't understand the discipline policy, then it's not going to do
    its job.  It doesn't matter how good the policy the principal
    hands you is if the teachers are enforcing something different,
    and even if the teachers are enforcing the written rules
    consistently and with balance and adequate flexibility, it's not
    going to help the kids if they perceive unfairness, arbitrariness,
    or bias.  
    
    I don't know about the school system where you're on the board,
    but in Nashua, parents have absolutely no feedback into the
    discipline policy.  You get a booklet on the first day that says
    "This is what happens to your kid.  Sign it or else."  I disagree
    with a solid three-quarters of it.  Next year maybe I won't sign
    it.  Setting limits is one thing.  The pettiness of the rules most
    principals and school boards are into is quite another.  
    
    --bonnie

re: .9

>I'm still concerned you're asking your children for their 
>interpretation of policy. I'ld ask the principal for a copy 
>of the policy. If there isn't a written policy I'ld be knocking 
>on the door of school committee members real quick.

     I basically agree with Bonnie.
     I agree that it's desirable to obtain a copy of the written
policy, but I also think that how the rule is enforced at the classroom 
level is very important, and more important (in fact possibly most 
important of the three) how the policy is perceived by the students (and 
their parents). In fact if a rule is enforced consistently, and it is 
perceived as reasonably fair by the students and their parents, then it may 
not matter what the policy says, or even if there is one.  If the incident 
that caused the base noter's daughter to get detention was perceived as 
worthy of discipline and if the detention was at a time in which the 
parents had some forewarning, then there probably wouldn't have been a 
base note, written policy or not.
     For example, the LAW may say that you can't drive over 55; the STATE
POLICE may say that I'll only nab you for speeding if you are driving a lot
faster than the flow of traffic; and the DRIVERS may say that I won't get a
ticket unless I'm driving over 65.  All three positions are
relevant, and how the drivers perceive it is probably the most important, 
since their behavior is what the law is intended to regulate and influence.
     What the written policy says becomes very important if it is adminstered 
unfairly, and/or if it is unfair on its face.  In the case of the former, it
provides a means for consistent treatment, and in the latter it becomes an
exercise of power and authority to enforce an unpopular requirement.

Clay

    
    
    My nephew attends Nashua High, a friend of his was given a full
    day (they call it in-house) detention for smoking. They lock you
    and a teacher in a room for the full school day and you take 0's
    for all the classes you miss. I asked AJ what the kids do while
    they're in detention, he said they drink a bottle of Nyquil before
    going in so they can sleep the whole day. He wasn't kidding. 
    
    bonnie

    Sheesh!  That "in-house" full day detention sounds real productive,
    huh?
    
    It ends up impacting grades, but in a much heavier way than I would
    have ordained... zeroes for each class that day?   Aaaarrgh!
    
    How about we stop wasting the kids', parents' and teachers' time and go   
    to a demerit system: X number of demerits earns you a zero for the day
    in whatever class you've disrupted, or 2X earns you a zero for all
    classes that day, or 3X earns a suspension?
    
    I've heard it argued that kids don't see the relationship between
    behavior and [grades/performance review/evaluation/reinforcement].  
    Guess how they learn it?  I don't think nodding out on Nyquil will 
    imprint the connection.  And I think detention punishes the parent and
    the parent's employer, not the child.
    
    Leslie
          

    Down here in Georgia they still believe in paddling kids for offenses,
    even in elementary school.  But, the school policy books states very
    clearly what offenses warrent paddling, and you have to do several
    serious things before this happens.  Also, you have to give the school
    permission to paddle your child.  You can sign the form saying you read
    it, but NOT to paddle your child.  In that instance, you will be called
    to come get your child.  My girls are VERY aware of the causes and
    effects of disrupting a class.
    
    On the high school level, my teacher is one of those in-house
    dentention teachers part of the day.  Having the kids at school at
    least keeps them off the streets or at home where there is usually NO
     supervision, or company of the sort you don't want for your kids.
     
     During in-house dentention, each of the kids' teachers has to provide 
    a lesson plan for that kid to complete that day(s).  So, they do have work
     to do and annot sleep the day away.  The kids even eat lunch in the room
     and the teacher checks their work.  The kids in in-house detention can
     get it for a variety of reasons.  My husband says one of the big reasons is
    because these kids so greatly disrupt a regular class - it's not fair
    to the students who are there to actually learn.  Many of the kids in
    in-house mouthed off one too many times.  One kid called my husband
    "teach" twice.  My husband told him quite clearly that that was
    offensive, and if he did it again, he'd get detention.  The kid's
    attitude was so smart alecky. 
    
    So, in-house is better than having kids roaming around without any
    direction.  At least now they have work they have to be doing. And,
    they send home advance notice.  I don't think they can just give them
    same-day detention.
    
    KB              
     

The problem isn't with the detention but with the use of the time. A full day
"detention" is really a suspension. I don't know about NH but in Massachusetts
the LAW says smoking by students on school grounds is prohibited(Chapter 71:2A).
it leaves the response to the infraction to the school dept. That response had
better include some kind of education. To just stick a kid in a room because
he made a "mistake" is rather draconian.

RE:handbooks and general discipline guidelines. 

In Massachusetts the law states that, at the high school level, a review
committee must approve the student handbook. That review committee must 
consist of the principal, 3 teachers, 3 parents (elected through the parent
organization), 1 person appointed by the school committee, and 3 students.
This approval must be on an annual basis. All rules and regulations must be
filed with the DOE before they become effective. (Chapter 71:37H)

This does 2 things. It provides input into the process for parents and it 
provides a check on unwieldy and petty issues. 

    > 3 parents (elected through the parent organization), 
    
    I really don't understand why an interested party should have to
    belong to an organization of which they strongly disapprove in
    order to give any feedback.  It virtually guarantees the
    continuation of the same opinions and attitudes that produced the
    situation in the first place.  They aren't gonna elect somebody
    who disagrees with them.  
    
    The parents of the other kids in our neighborhood disapprove of me 
    because I'm an irresponsible left-wing rabble-rouser commie
    working woman who wants the school to take over my parental
    responsibilities.  I'm not sure they'd even let me join, let alone
    run for office. :)
    
    When Kat was in grade school, the grade school PTO met at 9:30 AM. 
    Fat chance for the working moms . . . they meet in the evening
    now.  I'd like to get more involved with the school but I don't
    want to have to join this organization just to do it.  
    
    --bonnie

Last night I quizzed my kids on how discipline is handled in their (rather
elitist) private school.  We get a school handbook at the beginning of the
year with all the rules and discipline procedures.  The school is very serious
about what it considers major infractions.

For minor infractions:

	o  homework not done: child sent to the library to do it.
	   repeat offenders: parents informed
	   chronic problem: school psychologist informed, testing done, parents
		consulted, potentially alternative schooling suggested
	o  talking back, arriving late, etc.: child has a lunchtime detention.
	   They get just enough time to eat their lunch and then spend the 
	   rest of the period doing supervised extra work
	   Chronic problem: First sent to Mr. Lee (the principle) who reads the
	   riot act, parents informed, potentially can be suspended if really
	   bad.
	o  Fighting: My children had never heard of anybody fighting at the
	   school.  They looked at me with blank faces (???)
	o  Smoking (considered really serious): Riot act read by Mr Lee on
	   first offense. Parents informed.  Second offense: Automatic 1 day
	   suspension.  Third offense: Automatic 3 day suspension.  Next time
	   you're out
	o  Drugs: Automatic expulsion.  Selling drugs near the campus will get 
	   the kid arrested.

Since we pay a bundle for the kids to go to this school, it is in their interest
to not break the rules and get themselves thrown out.  On the whole, they are
a well behaved serious bunch of kids although the April Fool's jokes did get
out of hand last year :-)  At two o'clock in the afternoon, they gave up and
sent the secondary (age 13 and over) kids home.  All good fun but they just
couldn't get the kids to do anything serious that day.

Transportation: There are buses tht leave at 3:20 (when school finishes for
grades 1-9) at 4:30 (after 1st extra curricular activities finish and older kids
finish) and at 5:30 (the late bus).

Vengeful teachers quickly lose their jobs (if they ever were hired in the 
first place).

Cheryl

    To the base-noter... I hope you won't be offended, but I think there
    is a possibility that the teacher involved here may have been correct
    in assigning a punishment (although I agree that same-day detention is
    not a reasonable punishment.)
    
    When I was in junior high, I remember that we had definitive ways to
    "get" a teacher that we didn't like, all the while maintaining a 
    perfect facade of innocence.  We would constantly have to sharpen 
    our pencils during class (after "accidently" breaking the points on
    our papers), drop our books on the floor "accidently" during class,
    have to go to the bathroom a lot, etc., etc.  We were pretty good
    at walking the fine line between doing these things just enough to
    annoy the teacher, but not enough to give him/her any grounds to 
    accuse us of anything.  
    
    Now, I'm not saying that your daughter was sharpening her pencil
    for this purpose, of course.  But it is possible that students in
    general have been pushing and testing this teacher by lots of 
    pencil sharpening and book forgetting, to the point where he felt
    he had to nip it in the bud.  
    
    To be fair, I think he should have explained, "The next time you don't
    have time to sharpen your pencil before class, sit down at your desk
    anyway, then raise your hand and ask permission to sharpen your
    pencil."  
    
    
    

Bonnie,
	While the law says elected it usually is a matter of 3 souls 
volunteering to the President of the PTA. You don't have to be an
officer to volunteer. Most PTA's have many dues paying members and a
core group of PTA activists. In my experience, many of the school's
activists aren't "PTA" activists (IE they don't serve on the board
or go to every PTA meeting). They do go to school committee meetings
and speak out publicly on issues (both literally and by writing editorials
and other such things). Then when it comes time to form this group guess
who's name pops into everybody's head? Yours. You can't change them if
you don't participate.

I got this article from the Herald Tribune, originally published in the Washing-
ton Post.  It was on the editorial page. Copied without permission.

			FRANKED INTO SUBMISSION

Back in the 1940s, Frank Sinatra drove teenagers wild.  Apparently he still 
does.  A social science teacher in Riverside, Illinois, began last year to play
Mr. Sinatra's records in detention hall, where high school miscreants are
kept after school.  He has found it to be a pretty effective deterrent, with
punishment now being administered in half-hour doses called "Franks."

"The kids hate it," said the teacher, Bruce Janu.  "This is the worst thing that 
has ever happened to them."  One student who, for his multiple transgressions,
received two Franks in one afternoon, complained bitterly afterward: "It just
got to where I couldn't stand it."

We are tempted to compare this technique to that of the convenience store
owner who drove loitering teenagers from the parking lot by playing Muzak on
outdoor speakers.  But Sinatra is better than Muzak, as even a teenager would 
probably acknowledge.  What makes his songs punishment to modern detainees
is the same sentiment felt by many an American teenager before them: the thought
that anything their parents liked (or grandparents in the case of Frank Sinatra)
is by definition unbearable.

In the past, though, no one ever thought of discipling fractious adolescents 
with two units of barbershop quartet and a Nelson Eddy.  If they had, several 
generations might have been spared corporal punishment without any lack of
discipline in the schools.  THose who chafe under the regime of Mr. Janu (he
is, by the way, a Sinatra fan) might comfort themselves with the knowledge that
someday they, too, can become educators and inflict on troublemakers as many
Johns, Pauls, Georges, Ringos, and Elvises as are needed to restore order.  
Only vice principals, however, will be able to impose the ultimate penalty:
a full Madonna.

re: .20

>Only vice principals, however, will be able to impose the
>ultimate penalty: a full Madonna.

That's pretty awful, but my vote for the ultimate penalty would
be Michael Jackson videos (which should require at least a vote
of the School Board).  And either would probably be
unconstitutional as cruel and unusual punishment.

:^)

Clay

5 minutes of Axl Rose (Guns 'n Roses) I would consider cruel and inhumane
punishment.  Give me a "Frank" ANYTIME before that (and I don't particularly
like him :-)

ccb

    *FEELINGS*
    [for 60 minutes,] nothing more than FEELINGS
    
    %-PPPPPPPPP   >|-}
    
    Leslie

    RE.  .23
    
    Right.  A brilliant solution.  But we must supply the detention monitor
    with ear plugs!
    
    Why didn't anyone think of this before?
    
    L
    

RE: -1  (*FEELINGS*)


Geez, remind me never to piss you off.  You have a diabolical imagination.


(Actually, this is great.  Every once in a while I need a new threat for my
husband, to use when he doesn't do something I ask.  *This* one will get action.)


Pat