Conference moira::parenting

    
    
    I copied a book for a friend of mine that lost his mother and his
    daughter had a hard time understand, the book was 
    
    Helping Children cope with separation and loss  by Clauida Jewett
    
    
    My best wishes to you and your whole family.
    
    Lisa

    
    There is also a story called "Freddie the Leaf" which is a beautiful
    story for young children on death and dying.
    
    				Wendy

    
    I have been through this with my son when his father passed away and
    what you have told her so far is OK for now.  You may want to tell her
    how he died - a disease called cancer.  When she wants more information
    she will ask on her own and be prepared these questions come totally
    out of the blue and be sure that the explaination is always the same,
    ie. mention to other immediate family members/friends how you are
    handling this so should they be on the receiving end of the question
    they will be prepared and will eliminate any confusion for the child.
    
    My husband committed suicide when my son was 1 and Gregory did not
    quite understand or realize what was going on but when he was into the
    age of 2 the questions started coming.  "Where's my Dad?"  I told him
    he had died and was in Heaven with God.  "How did he die?"  He had a
    disease / accident.  Well all was OK for a couple months or so then
    more questions came about and each time was totally out of the blue
    and unexpected.  As he reached 4 the questions started getting more
    complex but I have been able to stay with the original explanation.
    It is very important to keep others informed because they DO get on the
    receiving end of the question and the child does compare notes in his
    mind to see if there is any discrepancy.  As we all know children put
    us through tests too.
    
    My son just turned 5 and he speaks freely about his Dad dying and
    asks to go see Dad at the cemetary.  The first couple trips to the
    cemetary were tough for both of us but now we go and VISIT.
    
    I myself will have to get the Claudia Jewett book (thanks for the info)
    because as you have read my explanation to my son will not suffice for
    his entire life.
    
    Now, I have a question for the readers:
    
    Any suggestions on how I should handle the suicide information as my
    son gets older and inquires more deeply?  My dilemma is that Granddad
    (father's dad) does not want my son to ever know the real reason of his
    father's death.  He feels that when my son gets older and crisis
    happens in his life that maybe he would justify taking his own life
    since it was what Dad did.  I realize this is almost a double standard
    but I feel I should respect the families feelings also.  We are all
    very, very close and can speak freely to one another but I really do
    need to start to be better prepared, especially since schools touch
    upon so many subjects relating to our lives, who knows what he'll ask
    me next.
    
    Yes, counseling is in the plan and has been spoken about with the
    family doctor who has seen me through ALL OF IT.
    
    Children understand more than we give them credit for.  Speaking
    openly, honestly, in an adult fashion, and not fumbling through will
    give the child what they are looking for - security and peace of mind.
    
    Take care.
    
    Diane
    

Diane-

My mother was married prior to her marriage to my father.  Her
first husband had terminal cancer.  He died of an "accidental"
gunshot wound.

When we were children, we were told only about the shooting accident.
The words "cancer" and "suicide" were never mentioned.

As an adult, I've come to realize that he most likely took his own
life.  My family still doesn't come out and say that ... it's as though
it's a taboo subject.

Personally, I think telling the truth is the best policy.  (Maybe I'd
feel differently if he were my father, rather than my mother's first
husband?) As an adult, I can accept that some people, for reasons of 
illness or depression, do find compelling reasons to take their own
lives.  It doesn't mean I will necessarily take that option myself.

What I find awkward is the fact that my family never talked about this
openly.  I'd also be concerned should your son learn the "truth" from
someone other than you. I think I'd wonder why it had been hidden 
from me. Secrets can be very dangerous things. 

As for what age to start telling more information ... I'm not really sure.
I agree that counsellors would be a good source for guidance.

--Jennifer

    
    
    Diane,
    
    As the note before me said "Secrets can be very dangerous things" that
    I know from experience.  You son deserves to know the truth and it
    should be from you, not someone eles.  5 is to young to understand it
    all right now.  But some place down the road a time will come and
    you'll know when it's right and he should know.  
    
    
    My best to you and your son.
    
    Lisa

    Thanks, yes I know secrets can be dangerous that is why I'm trying to
    gather information and be prepared.  My son will hear it from me.  The
    story of his father's death is quite complex and many questions left
    unanswered so I know I need to approach it with care and how it could
    affect my son's life as he grows up.
    
    I have no idea what age will be appropriate but you're right, I'll know
    when the time comes.  I do believe in honesty and do not intend to keep
    this as a "Secret", I'm only trying to see how I can work it with the
    grandfather's request.
    
    Thanks.
    Diane

    I'm glad to hear your attitude about "secrets".  I had an uncle that
    committed suicide, and whenever I asked about him, my Mom and aunts would
    get really quiet, brush it off with a pat answer, and then move on to
    something else.  I KNEW something was up, even at a *very* young age, and
    this only increased my desire to get to the bottom of it.  It simmered
    in the back recesses of my mind, as I thought of different ways to
    phrase my questions.  I'd come up with my OWN idea about what happened,
    and these questions were geared to validate this.  Finally, at age 36,
    did I finally find out from my Mom what happened, and why I hadn't been
    told earlier.  (After about age 12, I gave up trying to find out, and
    had all but forgotten about it until recently.)  Needless to say, I was
    NOT surprised at all to hear what had happened; in fact, I'd worked it
    up to be something worse.
    
    The reason they had a hard time telling me about it was:  a) it had
    shocked them deeply;  b) they were somewhat ashamed of it (sad, but true);
    and c) they thought I was too young to know what really happened.
    
    If your child's grandfather was the father of your husband, it may be
    helpful to understand (if not too painful to discuss)  his true reasons 
    for not wanting your son to know the truth.  The reason he gave seems 
    real, but there may be other things on his mind, too...  Just speaking 
    from experience... 
    
    I'm sure couseling will help flesh this all out.  I do know that
    sometimes a teenage suicide can start other troubled teenagers thinking
    about suicide, because it is sometimes sensationalized, etc amoung the
    other teenagers who were close to them.  I can understand his concerns.
    
    I guess my only caution would be not to underestimate your son's
    ability to  1) realize something's not quite complete in the
    explanation he's gotten; 2) come up with other ways to find out what he
    wants to know (depending on how badly he really wants to know).
    

    Is there a good way to explain death to a 3-year-old without using the
    "in Heaven with God" idea?  I don't know if I personally could say that
    to Marc.  And being at an age where he takes everything very literally,
    I'm sure he would ask he where Heaven is, and if we could go visit the
    person there.

I've heard of explaining that the dead person has gone to live on one
of the other stars in the sky.  (Seems fairly reasonable, kids can actually *see*
the stars.  But, what about the space shuttle?)

Just an idea I've heard....


Pat

    I too think you should be honest with your child at some point.  I'd
    probably speak to a therapist about when that might be best.
    
    My grandfather died of alcoholism when I was just over a year old. My
    Mom and her family always speak of him as if he were the greatest man
    ever to live.  I have never gotten the truth from my mother about his
    death.
    
    I found it out when I was about 20 and was living with my Grandmother. 
    She needed help going through some papers and I saw his death
    certificate.   I asked one of my Aunts about his dying of cirrhosis of
    the liver, and she admitted to his alcoholism.
    
    I heard a variety of causes of death for my Grandfather--cancer, heart
    disease, and even "a broken heart." !!  
    
    Figuring out what to say when you aren't going to tell the truth leads
    to inconsistencies like these.  But eventually, the truth will come out
    and your son may feel betrayed and hurt.
    
    My best to you in dealing with this situation,
    
    judy

    I was in a similar situation with my son who had just turned 4
    at the time.  We were advised to give him as little info as possible
    to make him understand (we also told him the person was in heaven
    with God) and to answer whatever questions he had.  You don't want
    to overwhelm them with more than they can handle.  We were also told
    to stress that it had nothing to do with him and it's wasn't his fault.
    
    One other thing - if you mention the person was sick, make sure to
    stress how very very sick that person was - you don't want them to
    think anything will happen to them if they get sick.
    
    Just a few ideas to keep in mind ..
    
    Nancy

And please, be very precise with what you tell children.  What the
child conjures up to fill in the blanks is often worse than the truth.


When I was a child of about 4 or 5, my grandmother told my mother about
the death of a distant relative.  My mother asked how he died.  My
grandmother said, "He drank too much.  It finally killed him."

For three days, I refused to drink *anything.*  Kids take things
literally.

Frank  

    RE .12  How true.  When I was 10 a girl of 14 died who was a family
    friend.  They had lived near us and my sister and her sister were good
    friends.  When I heard she died I asked questions and basically
    remember them saying how peaceful it was she died in her sleep and that
    she had water on the brain.  Well, I presumed I too could die in my
    sleep and spent that summer very neurotic.  Last time I saw her she
    seemed fine.  No one said Cancer and no one said anything about her
    condition.  It wasn't until my dad noticed there was a problem that I
    told him what I was scared of.  They finally told me what had happened
    after a very traumatic summer.  Until then everyone felt I would not
    understand and, of course, the dying in your sleep part really flipped
    me out.
    
    Michelle
    

    Wow, good point. My aunt died when I was about 8 and all my mother said
    was that she drove off a bridge. But in the way it was explained it
    sounded like the *bridge* was at fault!! So guess who was scared of
    bridges for a year!! Whew!
    
    Cyn

    Yes, kids do take things literally and Greg has asked all the questions
    you have referred to -- Where's Heaven?  Can we go and visit?  He has
    been satisfied with my explanation of God and Heaven -- that you can
    talk and they can hear you -- basically an explanation of how prayer
    works.
    
    As far as Grandpa -- his reasoning is that he has known people in the
    same situation and the children of have also committed suicide.  I know
    Greg is a strong person and his basis of his father's illness was
    alcohol and Grandpa was an alcoholic so there is a family history of
    multiple problems.  Only time will tell how Greg will deal with these
    social problems (he's only 5), all I can do is hope that I'm bringing
    him up in a mature, responsible, strong way and being as informative as
    possible.  We do have an open conversation relationship and hopefully
    this will continue through his life.
    
    I can't say how much this file has helped -- in knowing that there are
    other people that have dealt with these types of situations that work
    for the same company.  This has been my first communication with Notes
    and the original 280 just hit my topic and I hope that he has gotten
    assistance by reading these replies.
    
    Thanks so much and hope you all have a nice weekend.
    
    Diane
    

    Boy am I glad that the basenoter entered this note.  I have been
    wondering how to explain death to my son who will be 3 in November.  I
    just lost my Dad to cancer about 3 1/2 weeks ago and my son was very
    very close to his grampie.  He has only asked me about him once and I
    told him he was in heaven with god and God was going to take care of
    grampie know.  Alex (my son) knows who god is and has not asked me
    about him since.  He has an appt. with his pedi in November for his 3
    year check up and I am going to ask him what I should do incase Alex
    starts to ask questions again.  This note has helped also.  I am glad
    the basenoter started it.
    
    
    Thanks,
    
    Liz

    Gosh, I hate this... I own a 3-family home, and our tenants are
    literally like family.  On Saturday morning, our 2nd floor tenant
    discovered her husband dead on the bathroom floor.  He was 36 years
    old. My son looked out the window and saw all the comotion of
    paramedics, police, etc., and asked what was wrong.  So far I have told
    him that Jack got sick, and won't be coming home anymore, and that
    Linda will be living alone.  David is 3.5, and we have never had anyone
    close to us die.  At what age can they understand what "dead" means?
    I'm heading to the bookstore at lunch to find something to help me
    explain it better.  Any suggestions?  Something without religious
    overtones would be preferable, since he gets extremely confused when we
    start talking about God and heaven.  
    Sarah

I think you've already started down the right path. Young children can grasp
"concrete" ideas pretty easily. They have a tougher time with the abstract. 
Death, for most of us, fits in the abstract. First of all, make sure you let
him know that Jack is dead. Use the words. The first question is going to be
what is death. This where you have to be concrete. Explain that Jack is gone
and not coming back. His body stopped working. Explain to them about the
funeral process and that Jack is going to be placed in a hole in the ground
(many people do end up getting cremated these days so you may want to find
out how Jack is being taken care of). Take your child to a cemetary, maybe to
one where some of your relatives are buried, and show him around. 

The abstract stuff comes much later but you can bet they'll be lots of
tough questions like where is Jack going. Above all be as honest and as
simple as you can. Kids can handle alot more than we adults usually give
them credit for. As for the religious questions I have found that it is
best to attempt to explain both your beliefs and those of the deceased.
If Jack and/or Linda have certain beliefs about what happens after death these
should be expressed, again in simple terms, to David in order to avoid any
possible inadvertant remarks from him to Linda.

    "Freddie the Leaf" is an excellent book for young children.  I'm not
    sure of the author but a larger book store should either have it or be
    able to order it for you.
    
    Linda

re: .19

The full title is "The Fall of Freddie the Leaf" by Leo Buscaglia; I believe 
it's mentioned in an earlier reply.  Use your judgment as to how it will work 
with your child; the book is metaphorical (the falling of a leaf in the 
process of regeneration and renewal is a metaphor for death), and as 
mentioned in the past few notes, some kids relate better to the concrete.  
Even if you decide that it's not appropriate for your child, it IS a 
beautifully written book, appropriate for adults.

One bit of advice is that kids this age may not know how to act in the 
presence of the close friends and relatives; if you're concerned you may want 
to keep your son apart.  But better, imo, if it's someone who is "like 
family" is to let him participate, and my guess is that the "like family" 
folks will understand.  My son (forget exactly how old he was but it wasn't a 
year or two older than 3) cracked some jokes at my father's wake.  But it 
wasn't meant disrespectfully; it was more just how he reacted to nervous or 
strange situations.  Also, try to prepare him for how others act at wakes and 
funerals.

Clay  

My father-in-law died last December.  My oldest daughter had just turned 4.
I explained to her that grampa was very, very sick.  I stressed that it was 
a different kind of sick than we get, he wasn't going to get any better.  I told 
her that god looked down and saw how sick he was so he came to get him to 
bring him up to heaven so he could feel better.  

She talks about him alot and sometimes will say she misses him and feels like
crying.  So we sit and cry for a little while then when she feels better we
allways think of something fun that she did with him and talk about that.  

I just try to answer her questions as simply as possible.  I think she's
handled it pretty well.  

Kirsten

    Nashua Public Library also has Freddie the Leaf on video - I think it's
    done beautifully, and explains enough to answer questions, but not so
    much detail that the child might be frightened that he'll "get sick"
    and die.  
    
    Unless he's very mature, I would tend to lean on the side of saying
    "less" than more.  Their imaginations and fears are so very vivid and
    so REAL to them, I'd be concerned about introducing new fears if you
    provided too much detail.  Your pedi should be able to help you with
    this as well.
    
    A sudden death is a lot harder to grasp than if he'd been sick for a
    while first.  I would try to stress that sudden deaths are not common
    and try to foresee fears that your child might have that this might
    happen to Mom or Dad.  And try to judge your child - some kids take
    these things all in stride, others are very bothered by them.  If it
    seems to affect him a lot, don't rule out counseling.
    
    Deepest sympathies for you and yours.
    Patty

    Thanks for all the ideas.  I want to try not to stress the sick part,
    since I don't want him thinking every time someone gets sick that they
    don't come home.  I like the idea of his body just stopped working. He
    had a massive heart attack, so I guess I can tell him that his heart
    stopped working.  I'll check the library for that book, and see if I
    think it will help.  He's not very comfortable with abtract ideas,
    hence my desire to stay away from any mention of God and heaven. Thanks
    again for the ideas.  There are 2 nephews, ages 5 and 7, who are also
    going to be deeply affected, so it will be interesting to see how each
    child handles the information they have been given. All 3 kids play
    together daily, so I'll have to check what the others have been told. 
    I don't want an argument amongst them about exactly "where" Jack went.
    Thanks for the help, and keep the suggestions coming.  
    Sarah

    Even at 3 it's interesting to see how children grasp information.  AJ
    was aware even at age 3 that a cemetary is where, as he put it so
    bluntly, "dead people are".  There is a cemetary across the street from
    the place where he took gymnastics two summers in a row, and somewhere
    in the going and coming he must have asked the sitter what the place
    was, or someone in the group must have brought it up.
    
    I realize you don't want to take a "religious" approach to this, but
    even without that approach children can/do undersand the part of "going
    to heaven" when they die.  My son also understands the concept that
    when you die your body is put into the ground.
    
    Even at 6 AJ has a total grasp of the concept that he had a sister who
    died at birth, and is buried in the cemetery.  This will be hard for
    you to explain to your son, just simply because you have an emotional
    stake in it.  You need to know that it is all right to show emotion,
    tears if you feel that way.  You do not have to be Stoic, because if
    your feel sad enough while explaining what happened to your son to shed
    some tears that's OK too.  If he wants to cry, let him.  The one thing
    I resent from my childhood is that when a neighbor died, the "children"
    were sort of shielded from all of the sad feelings.  As a result my
    first wake and funeral wasn't until I was an early teen.  This was a
    friend of mine, only a couple years older who had been killed in a car
    accident.  It was such a terrible first experience, that I just hate
    wakes today, probably more than most.
    
    I wish I could send a hug to you, I feel confident you will do OK with
    your explaination to your son.
    
    Lyn

Make sure if you do talk about being buried in the ground that you say
Jack's *body* will be buried in the ground.  Somehow I think that if you
just say "Jack" that your son may panic thinking what it would be like 
for *him* to be buried (alive) in the ground, and will think that it is
frightening.

My older son Evan was about 4 1/2 or newly 5 when my great aunt died and I
flew out for the funeral.  He was upset with me because he wanted to go
to the funeral.  He had never met her, though she had sent him things.
His interest was just in funerals.  My father has prostate cancer and is
expected to die in another year and a half or so.  Evan has already told me
that he very much wants to go to the funeral, and I have agreed to take him
(along with the rest of the family).

      Carol

    This is interesting - when I dropped my son off at the sitter's today
    (the sitter's husband is Jack's wife's brother - got it? Sitter's children
    are their nephews - is that any clearer?), David sat down at the
    kitchen table and the older boy said "Uncle Jack is dead".  David said "I
    know, he died at our house".  I NEVER said anything to him about death,
    and neither did anyone else.  He had to have heard me, but didn't say
    anything.  So we had a quick chat right there, and he seems really fine
    with it.  I'm still going to get a few books and prepare myself for any
    further probing by him.  I can't wait to pick him up today to see if
    any further discussion occured.  Would that we adults could be so
    matter-of-fact with this : (  Thanks for all the ideas!
    Sarah

re: .26

I guess that's yet another example why it's best not to try to keep things 
from kids; they can be very, very, observant (except when asked to pick up 
their room) and hear and see things you never imagined they saw and heard.

I also think you've got a good idea to discuss it more than once.  The matter 
of fact manner may very well be that, or it may also be some amount of 
confusion.  It's also fortunate that the first death he dealt with is that of 
a person he knows well, but is not SO close (such as a parent or sibling) 
that you don't have the emotional energy and to always "be there" for him.

Clay 

    What's REALLY hard is trying to explain cremation to a child.  My
    husbands grandmother died when my oldest son was 5.  He had heard about
    people being buried and was ok with that.  But, he wanted to know where
    Gramma was going to be buried and it really threw me as I knew she was
    to be cremated and her ashes spread at her favorite location.  
    
    So, I VERY slowly and carefully explained that Gramma's BODY and Gramma
    were no longer together.  The part of her that we knew and loved was
    now with God and all the other people she knew who had died and she had
    decided that she wanted her body to be cremated.  Of course he asked
    what THAT meant so I explained that it meant having the body put in a
    very hot place so that it turned into ashes.  He asked several more
    questions and then never said another thing.  This is a VERY sensitive
    child so I KNOW if anything had scared him about the explanation he
    would have shown some signs.  But...I was a nervous wreck trying to
    explain all this on the fly!
    
    Linda

    
    I'm not sure that his reaction is that uncommon .... my kids had
    hamsters at their dad's house that their grandma had bought them.
    They'd had them for ~6-8 mos when one of the hamsters suddenly died. 
    It was their first time having to deal with the death of anything
    "close" to them, and as they played with the hamsters CONSTANTLY, and
    talked about them ALL the time, we were concerned about how they'd take
    it.  They buried the hamster and kind of made a "big" deal about saying
    goodbye, but once that was done, so were they.  It was weird (to me).
    
    I tried to talk to them about it after to see how they felt, and
    really, they were more annoyed by my trying to bring it up than
    anything else.  Darky got old or sick (we don't know), and died, and
    he's with God now, and that's all that there is to it.  Yah, I miss him
    some, but we still have the other one, and the cat, and toys etc.  So,
    what's the big deal, Mom??!!  I was surprised at how matter-of-factly
    they took the whole thing.  
    
    I have also since gotten a fish tank - obviously not the most stable
    long-living "pets" to have.  They've been fine when the fish die - they
    like to be able to "say goodby", but there's always an argument about
    who gets to flush the toilet ... I guess in this sense, we are somehow
    teaching them that "saying goodbye" is a natural part of the life
    cycle, and just because someone/thing happened to someone/thing else,
    it doesn't mean it'll happen to them.  Geez, wish *I* didn't get so
    spooked! (-:
    
    

    I don't know, my kids get DEVASTATED when one of our animals dies. 
    They have adjusted to the fact that fish may not live too long but if
    anything furry dies they get really upset.  Even the death of my sons
    chameleons was rough (and he never even went near them!).  Probably
    because they haven't had any PERSON who was really close to them die
    they don't seem to get as upset about that.
    
    My oldest is already getting upset periodically because his hamster is
    2 years old and he knows their lifespan is around 3!  But, like me they
    continue to want more animals!  Guess we just like to torture
    ourselves! 

    
    	Conversation of our 3 year old next door neighbor to
    a woman's whose cat had died a month ago.
    
    	Little Boy:  Joan, is your cat still dead?
    	Joan: (A little flustered)  Yes
    	Little Boy:  I'm still sorry.
    
    It was real cute. And he was very matter-of-fact but I don't think
    the concept was All there.

    RE:  a few back
    
    I don't think that explaining cremation has to be any more difficult
    than explaning burial.
    
    Remember that in some cultures, including India, cremation is universal.
    
    The thought of a person burning up is no creepier than the thought of a
    person being buried.  The important thing to know is that the person
    and the body are (were?) not the same thing.
    
    In Judaism we say that the person lives on in their good deeds and in
    the memory of those who loved and revered them.  I think this is a good
    way to ease the pain of death for the survivers.
    
    My friend took her kids (ages 5 and 7) to their grandmother's wake. 
    The kids were really eager to touch the body in the open casket.  They
    actually asked to touch it a second time before they left.  We adults
    were all quite amazed.
    
    Kids reactions are not the same as adults, that's for sure.
    
    Laura
    

    Oh, boy, here we go.  My son was told by a well-meaning neighbor that
    Jack "went to heaven".  He has seen the movie "All Dogs Go To Heaven".
    Now he wants to know why he can't go to heaven with Jack!!! He wants to
    fly, sit on clouds, and play with all the dogs up there! I'm glad he
    thinks of it as a great place, but he was very upset when I told him it
    it wasn't his time to go yet.  Any suggestions?  I can't tell him he
    has to be old, because Jack was only 36.  Granted, to a 3 year old
    that's old, but he knows the difference between "grown-ups" and "old
    people".  I tried telling him that Jack's heart stopped working, so he
    got that concept OK (we've been discussing parts of the body for
    several months now), and I told him Linda would be living alone, but he
    had trouble with the notion that Jack won't be leaving heaven and
    coming back. I guess in that movie the dogs come back to help? I didn't
    see it, so I don't know what kind of idea they presented.  Can anybody
    give me a run-down of the movie so I can figure out what concept of
    heaven he's got?  Thanks so much for the help so far.  This is a tough
    one...
    Sarah

My husband just died in May and our 2.5 year old is adjusting nicely. He knows
that Daddy's body is buried in the ground at the cemetary and that he is way
up in the sky watching over us all the time. Daddy listens to him when he talks
him, but we can't hear him when he answers us.

We go to water the flowers on a regular basis. Daniel ALWAYS gets out of the
car and says "Hi, Daddy!! We love you and miss you" Then he goes on to tell him
about whatever happens to be his "craze for the day" ie; "See my new airplane
Mommy bought for me" (holding it up high so Daddy can see it).

He also reminds me when we pass by the cemetary that we have to go water Daddy's
flowers or we have to buy special flowers for Daddy today Mama.

It kills me that he won't have Daddy to grow up with, but I'm sure glad he is
handling the death so well, for now. It has only been 10 weeks, so I'm sure,
in time, there will be more questions, etc.

Best wishes,
Norma

    
    Oh Norma, I'm so sorry for you and for Daniel.   May time heal your
    sorrow and may you keep wonderful memories of your husband and father.
    
    Here I sit with tears just streaming down my face - it would be nice 
    to have the understanding, acceptance, and resilience of a child.
    
    Sincerely,
    Carol Stolicny

    Our cat is dying of stomach cancer.  We just found out on Saturday.
    James (5.75) said when I got home from the vet that he was glad Morris
    went to the doctor "because now my cat will be all better."  As gently
    as I could, I explained that Morris wasn't going to get better (he's
    known for some weeks that Morris is sick), and that he was going to
    die.  I don't think I really got through to him, but I didn't want to
    lie, either.
    
    The other thing is that we'll probably have to put Morris to sleep -
    one of the things the vet said is that the cat will probably get so
    that he can't eat, has a lot of diarrahea, etc., etc.  So when that
    happens, we need to have him put down.  How do I explain *that* part.
    I want to avoid the phrase "put to sleep" if at all possible.
    
    Thanx,
    Kate

    
    	When my brothers and sisters were younger we were always burying
    pets (most of them were dead already ;-)) This is what happens when you
    have a constant flow of fish, birds, mice, hamsters, guinea pigs, dogs,
    rabbits, and cats going through the house.

    	I only thing I remember about death was that if animals did not
    make it up to heaven (you had to be baptized to get into heaven) then I
    didn't want to go there either. Other than that the concept pretty much
    escaped me other than the animals would not be coming back. I felt the
    loss more than I felt the death.

    	When one of the animals did die, it became very important for us
    kids to hold a funeral of sorts. We wrapped the small animal put it in
    a box and buried it in the back yard under a favorite tree (OK so they
    all liked the same tree). Sometimes we made a cross out of sticks
    sometimes we put clover blossoms on the grave.

    	By the next morning the grave would always be dug up by either our,
    or the neighborhood dog who always saw our funerals as easy pickin'
    dessert.

    	Perhaps you might want to create a ceremony for your son, you could
    bury the cat's collar, or you could set up a little alter for the cat
    either inside the house or outside. An alter need not be much, maybe a
    stone in the garden or a bush in the corner of the yard.

    	When I die, I don't want to take up space in the ground but I would
    like a stone bench put up in a shady grove so that people could be
    comfortable while telling me all that's been going on.

			Wendy

    re .36
    >>I want to avoid the phrase "put to sleep" if at all possible.
    
    When I was very young a neighbor's baby was very ill, finally died,
    and was buried.  To this day I still remember how my mother
    explained to me that they had buried the baby when he went to sleep.
    
    We've never tried to hide death from our son Tobias, now almost 8.
    Young children, I've been told, don't really understand death.  So
    it may be difficult for your son to really understand what it means.
    If I were in the same situation I'd make sure he knew that he'd
    never see Morris again.  I'd also explain to him that it's only
    animals that are put down; some children will wonder if sick people
    get put down too.
    
    Instead of waiting for the cat to get too sick you might choose to
    do it somewhat earlier.  You might plan some way for your son to
    say goodbye to Morris; I'd not have Morris just disappear.

>    When I was very young a neighbor's baby was very ill, finally died,
>    and was buried.  To this day I still remember how my mother
>    explained to me that they had buried the baby when he went to sleep.

Wow!  I'm sure some kids would be terrified of falling asleep if they
were told this.

    My 4 year old has asked about death as our dog has been put to sleep,
    and also because he's come with me when I put flowers on my father's
    grave.  I just explained to him that my father had a boo-boo in his
    heart that wouldn't get better, and Baby Jesus didn't want him to
    suffer anymore, so He took him to Heaven to be with Him and not be in
    pain anymore.  He got a little confused about the cemetary, so I told him
    that that was Pepere's special little house, but he was in Heaven with
    Jesus.  He seems to understand that, and sometimes when he talks about
    Coco (our dog who we put to sleep 2 years ago), he says that Coco is in
    heaven too because she was sick and Baby Jesus didn't want her to
    suffer anymore either.  He still says he misses her, but understands
    that she was sick and isn't suffering anymore.
    
    It isn't easy explaining to them in terms that they understand.  Maybe
    at the library there's a book to help you explain the death of a pet to
    your child.
    
    Hope this helps.
    
    Barbara

    There may be some strings in MISERY::FELINE (awful node name!) offering
    suggestions on what to say to James... I *know* there are some
    wonderful first-hand accounts of saying goodbye to beloved kitties, and
    replies offering support and encouragement, which may be of help.
    
    I think that when it's time, I would explain that the vet has medicine
    that makes it easier for Morris' spirit to get to heaven, and that when
    Morris gets there he won't hurt any more (and, maybe, he'll be able to
    hear your prayers about him).  I also think a memorial ritual of some
    type would be helpful (for "closure"), as I assume James won't be 
    attending the actual euthanasia.
    
    So sorry that "it's time" for Morris....
    
    Leslie

    Kate,
    
    Have you asked your Vet?  Some of them have information on explaining
    death of animals to children.  If not, to me regular explaining death
    to family and children books for people would work as well as for pets.  
    
    We were lucky for quite a few years, but this year we lost our chow and
    my oldest cat, both to old age and infirmaties.  Carrie is old enough
    to understand death completely this time, and went to the Humane
    society with me to have Iris buried.  The cats have been small enough
    that our yard can handle them, but a 45 pound dog is a different
    matter.  My biggest problem is that she felt the best way to get over
    grieving would be to grab the first puppy that looked like it would fit
    into the family, while I wasn't ready for another dog at the time.  
    
    when Frank, Lolita, Carrie and I were truly ready for another dog, we 
    all discussed what breed, age, and type of dog we were looking for
    (Lolita was a long distance coach by that time as she is in college.)
    and I had Carrie help me go through the want-ads.  She was the one to
    find the samoyed litter in the paper where we got our pup.  I also let
    her pick the pup within our agreements as to sex, size, and brightness.  
          
    With our cat, we already had three others, with two having wormed their
    way in when my old lady was sick on and off over the years and we
    thought she was going to die for sure.  Little Cat lived to be 18 1/2
    years old, but had not looked good for several years before that, due
    to chronic arthritis which also affected her jaws.  The agreement in
    our family is that there is no replacement for LC, that we have
    enough cats right now, and that it wouldn't be fair to the puppy or our
    other cats to bring in another baby at this time.  They already has to 
    contend with Atlehi for my attention and the dog was a major shock to
    the cat's club, as she hasn't learned that cats rule in the household
    yet.  ;-)
    
    Good luck!  I did have a long time with Little Cat to explaine to
    Carrie and Lolita that she wasn't going to last much longer and They
    were ready for this.  Iris was a shock as she became ill and died
    within a week and we really didn't have any time to prepare.
    
    Meg      

Just this summer, we needed to explain to Elise (3),
why our cat was gone.  It was a ticklish situation;
she had a run-in with a raccoon who was not well.
Four days later, she was acting strangely - staggering -
the classic rabies symptoms.  She had also scratched
the hell out of me when I got her back in the house.

On the day of the incident, we had to call the police,
as the raccoon was lying under my husband's car in the
dooryard and did not do anything but growl when the
dog charged it.  The police dispatched the poor thing.


But, I was in the house trying to keep the girls
interested in Sesame Street.  Elise heard of course and
wanted to know what was going on.  I explained that the
raccoon was very, very sick, and the police officer
was helping it.  She figured out that the cop shot the
raccoon (since cops carry guns).

Then the cat - we had her put down, of course, and thank
god she tested negative.  She was failing due to age, we
think.

We explained it to Elise with very simple direct terms.
The cat died.  This means her body stopped working.
It stopped working because she was very, very old, much
older than Grandpa.  OK, OK, we lied a little.

The raccoon died.  This means its body stopped working.  
It stopped working because the police officer shot it.
The police office shot it because it had a very bad
sickness that was hurting it, and it wasn't going to get
better.  So, the police officer stopped the sickness from
hurting it anymore.

This never happens to people, only to some animals,
and not very much.

She came back to the subject many times and explained it
to me.  I think she understood, and has not been afraid
of police, raccoons, or getting sick.

Pat

       Hi,
    
          I think that it's important to be gentle with the child but 
    definately involve him in the fact that the cat is very ill and the
    doctors can't save him.
    
         When my sister's dog was hit by a car and my 3 year old grandson
    saw it, he said "Luke's dead, huh?" Well, they brought the dog to the
    vet and he didn't know if the dog could be saved. he put a splinter
    on his broken leg and said that they had to be very careful with his
    bruised insides. They did take him home, my grandson was so happy that
    the doctor could save him. The dog died about a week later. When he
    said things about Luke we explained that the dog was too injured and
    too sick to live. He died and sometimes that happens. 
    
         My niece had a baby Nov. 22 nd, 1993. The day before Christmas
    the baby took sick, they had to rush him to the hospital. He had
    something wrong with his lungs and they thought he was going to die.
    My niece lives on the first floor and my daughter and grandson on
    the second floor. He knew something was wrong. "He looked around the
    house and said "Where's the baby?" My sister said "He's in the
    hospital, he's very sick."  My grandson then said "Is he going to die
    like Luke did?" No one knew what to say. My sister said, "the doctors
    are doing everything they can and we hope he will be okay." My
    grandson looked very sad and said "I know he's going to die too."
    
       My niece talked to a nurse at the hospital and asked what they
    should do because my grandson would looked around the house everyday
    and then go back upstairs. The nurse said that maybe it would be
    a good idea for him to see the baby with the mothers permission. So,
    my daughter and niece brought him to see the baby. He was happy to 
    see that the baby wasn't dead and that maybe he might get well and
    come home. He did get well and did come home. I know if the baby had
    died it would have been a very sad time for all, but I think the fact
    that Tommy got to see that sometimes they can save you in the hospital
    it releaved him. We didn't really realize how much he missed Luke
    until the baby got sick.
    
       I think that even at 3 , it's important to talk to the child and
    let them know that sometimes these things happen. It's so important
    to let them know it's okay to cry and feel sad for the animal that
    died.
    
         Take care,
    
         Rose Marchand
    
    

One of our rabbits died on Jan 2 and we were all in the house (including 
Harry, the rabbit.)  He had lost the use of his back legs so we were trying 
to nurse him back to health.  The kids (5 and 2.75) also knew he was sick 
because he was in the house for about a week.

When he died we called the kids in and explained that Harry's spirit had gone 
to heaven but his body was still here.  We let them pat him a few times and 
then wrapped him up in a towel and put him in the garage (next to our hearse, 
of course) and I buried him the next day.

Samantha, the almost 3 year old, didn't seem to be phased by Harry's death 
and still doesn't seem to care too much.  Anthony really seems to understand 
but we have had other conversations about death afterwards.  I started 
talking about my fathers grandfather and Anthony wanted to know if he was 
alive.  I said no, that people die when they get old, but new babies are born 
to 'replace' them.  He thought a bit and said that we were all just 'taking 
turns' here on earth.  I thought that was a pretty good concept!

Dave

    The Monday before Christmas, my brother-in-law was killed.  He worked
    for the Highway Department and was struck by a speeding tractor
    trailer.  He was killed instantly.  Brian (5 1/2) was extremely close
    to Alan.  We found that talking honestly about Alan death, helped Brian
    come to terms with the reality.  Also, a friend recommened a book,
    "Lifetimes".  Unfortunately I can't remember the author's name.  It
    simply talks about that everything has a beginning and end.  In between
    is its lifetime.  Each lifetime is different.  
    
    LG
    

    I would not hide death from him.  If there is anything humans must face
    its the reality of death.  But, of course I would be a compassionate
    and kind and positive about it as I could be.  I would give your son
    time to get used to the idea that Morris is going to die.  I assume
    that when Morris's symptoms get too bad and his quality of life is
    unacceptable (too bad humans don't have the same privilage our pets do)
    you will have to take him to the vet to be euthanized.  I would let
    your son say good bye and grieve and cry if he needs to, and of
    course be supportive of your son.
    
    Our cat McKenzie had to be put down because of feline leukemia a couple
    of years ago and the above way is how we handled it with our young son.
    
    Jeff

    I have a similar situation described in note 188.  I too had many of
    the same questions and concerns.  Please check this out.
    
    I did have to put my cat down last fall, and it still breaks my heart
    to think of her gone.  I let the vet take care of the burial.
    
    Also please check out my comments in the (Misery::feline) file, note
    569 and 590 with my roller coaster ride with sick, and not so sick
    cats.
    
    Please contact me off line, if you want some off line comments.
    
    Lyn

    I made a mistake, my string on the cats is note 538.
    
    sorry, Lyn

    
    
    We put our dog down last June after deciding she had suffered enough. 
    We thought Shannon would be so involved with her new sister that she
    wouldn't miss Cocoa too bad.  Well, after explaining in simple terms
    that Cocoa was old and sick and she went to "puppy Heaven" Shannon
    seemed to adjust well.
    
    Now, nine months later, she was telling us on Sunday that when Cocoa
    isn't 'died' anymore, she was going to take her for a walk! Dad, at a
    loss for words let me handle the situation at which I said...with tears
    in my eyes "Shannon, Cocoa isn't coming back, she died and that means
    she won't come back...maybe someday we will get a puppy that we can take 
    for a walk like you want, but Cocoa will not come back"  She accepted
    it, but who knows what she is thinking...Guess in 9 months we might
    find out.
    
    We all miss Cocoa, she was our 'baby' for 12 years long before we
    thought children would come into our lives so it is difficult for me to
    talk about too:^(  
    
    

    
    
    		I would like to thank the PARENTING noters community.
    	I read through this string a couple of months ago as my Dad 	
    	was succumbing to cancer and I was at a loss on how to explain
    	this to my 3.5 yr. old Matthew.  He and Gramps were very close.
    		Well this past weekend Gramps had nothing left and ended
    	his suffering.  I explained to Matt that he was dead and went 
    	to Heaven.  Well never having been exposed to the term he asked
    	where Heaven was.  I tried to tell him when people die they go
    	up to the sky, thats where it is.  Matt's reply was "Oh, you mean
    	Gramps took a balloon ride"  Matt spent his first few years growing
    	up in Albuquerque, where every October is held the International
    	Balloon Fiesta.  We always went, as the site of 300-400 hot air
    	balloons lifting off is breathtaking.
    		Anyway we took him to the wake so he could say goodbye.
    	I'm not sure how much he really understands, but I feel like we
    	did the right thing.  He really helped Dad alot by telling me 
    	not to be sad and offering to wipe away the tears. 
    		Thanks again to all, this conference is a tremendous
    	resource for the good and sometimes not so good times.
    
    
    
    							Mark Skalski   
    
    
    
    
    

    If this repeats a previous response, apologies.
    
    We live in NY and my in-laws in Florida, we see them once or twice
    a year.
    
    My mother-in-law passed away Oct. '93, we left our 3 1/2 year old 
    in NY to attend the funeral.  At the time my husband and I were 
    both very concerned about continued employment, I was 7 mos. pregnant
    with medical complications and were dealing with mil's terminal 
    illness and death, so we were in tough times ourselves.  We decided
    not to say anything about it to our daughter at the time.  In May'94
    Grandpa came to visit us, along obviously and Katie never said a thing
    or question us about Grandma.
    
    Last week we visited Florida, first time there with Kate in 2 1/2
    years.  As soon as we told her about the trip, she non-stop talked
    to anyone who would listen about visiting Grandpa and Grandma, pointing 
    to pictures of them throughout the house.  Guess she never thought
    it was strange that Grandpa visited by himself in NY, but Florida
    means Grandma by association?
    
    Longwinded story, but we took an idea from "Lion King" where Mufasa
    tells Simba that all the kings are stars, we also added heaven due
    to our religion.  When we explained to Katie one evening when we had
    time to spend with her, she demanded to go outside immediately and
    find Grandma's star.  (It was 8degrees that night and clear!!!) So
    we wrapped up, went on the deck and looked for Grandma's star.  She
    found one twinkling big time, decided that was Grandma and twinkling
    means "I love you, Katie".  As if that wasn't enough through my tears,
    she pointed to another bright star and told me "Mommy that is your
    father's star."  (My dad passed away 15 years ago, she will never 
    know him, but I mention him from time to time.)
    
    Hard to know what they understand and truly comprehend.  However,
    when she saw Grandpa last week, as soon as it got dark the first
    evening of our visit, she asked him to go outside and find Grandma's
    star, and showed him "Mommy's Daddy's star".  What a memory I'll 
    always cherish.
    
    

Would anyone care to relate how they dealt with "Will you die, Mommy?"
and "Will little girls die?" and other related questions.

These are coming now from my 2.9 year old.  I think it's related to us
talking about a dog we used to have.  I told her that Dragon got
very very sick and died.  And she was asking lots of questions then
wondering about all the dogs she knows and would they die.  That stopped
for a while, and she just started in with people last night.  And I
think that started because my parents are visiting and my step-mother
has cancer.  Even though we haven't discussed this, she's clearly picking
up on something because this all started with "Nanny, will you die?" when
she gave them her good-night hugs last night.  My parents handled this 
very matter-of-factly until Noelle asked if I would die.  They said no, and
I contradicted them.  

I'm aiming for honesty and a matter-of-fact delivery.  Yes,
Mommy will die but it probably won't be for a long, long, long time.
I reassure her that there will always be someone who will take care of her.  
She's really surprising me with what she does grasp -- and how quickly.  But I'm
sure she doesn't have much of a concept of time.  After all, "yesterday"
means anything from 2 minutes ago to 1 year ago :-)

And she greeted her caregiver this morning with "My mommy is going to die".
Luckily, I'd had a chance to forewarn the caregiver that she was asking
questions about death...

I never anticipated dealing with these questions quite so soon!

- Deb B.

    Hi Deb,
    
    My son started worrying about my husband and I dying when he was 3.5
    and has been concerned with it since (now 5.5).  We did the honest
    approach and told him that we would die and he wanted to know what
    would happen to him.  We told him mimi and gramps would take care
    of him...what if they die?  Then grandma and grandpa would take care of
    him...what if they die? ... We finally told him that Aunt Linda (a
    favorite of his) would take care of him.  Again, he asked, what if she
    dies?  Our final (a little exasperated) response was 'Aunt Linda wont
    die, she's immortal'.  He was happy with that.
    
    In the last 6 months or so he's accepted the answers we've given
    without us getting to the point of having immortal aunts.  He's still
    concerned and very curious about it.  My 3 year old on the other hand,
    asked me when I'm going to die.  I told her hopefully when I'm very
    old.  And she said ok and continued playing....They're all so
    different.
    
    Good luck...Rhonda

    We get death questions from our nearly 5-year old a lot.  I don't
    remember when she started.  It makes me uncomfortable sometimes, but I
    think it is important to be honest and open.  It must be working
    because she doesn't seem at all hesitant to ask!  Her paternal
    grandfather is 86, so it seems to me that she may need this information
    during her childhood.
    
    Last week we had a particularly hard conversation before going to bed. 
    That made getting to sleep a little difficult.
    
    One thing that we are going to do is go to a cemetary.  She is very
    curious about them and I think it will help her to go to one.
    
    Generally, I tell her that people usually die when they get very, 
    very old.  We don't watch the news in front of her, so we didn't have
    to deal with the Oklahoma City story.  I'm sure we'll have another 
    conversation when she starts to figure out that sometimes children do
    die.  So far we have been lucky.
    
    judy

    
    
    I think The Lion King brings up the whole issue of death all over again
    - and as bad as, if not worse than, Bambi did.  Because Bambi's mom,
    and Mufasa .... neither were old or sickly.  I think it becomes clear
    to kids then, that any "accident" or "mean person" could happen to come
    along and snatch away mom/dad.
    
    Mine haven't asked about death in years ... I wish I could remember
    clearly what I told them.  I'm sure that I told them everyone's Mom and
    Dad dies sometime.  Everyone dies some time.  But that probably we
    would be around until THEY were old and had their own kids and their
    own houses, and they'd be happy to have us gone by then (-:  All of
    their grandparent's are still alive and kicking (a few harder than
    others), and they see that those are our parents, and how old we are,
    and I think are able to get a better grasp, that we will (most likely)
    be around to bug them until they're old and tired of us.  
    
    I do remember it helped to sort of "turn it around" a little.  Instead
    of allowing them to be "afraid" of being without us, of saying things
    that might WANT them to have us gone (maybe this is wrong, I don't
    know).  I'm sure I told them I had no plans of dying because I wanted
    to stick around and embarrass them in high school .... and besides, I
    couldn't wait until they were old enough to have their own house,
    because I wanted to come mess it all up on them!  It seemed to help
    them be able to envision themselves as adults, and still having me in
    their hair.  "A long time" was pretty meaningless to them.  But saying
    "Until you have kids" or something like that, made 'the future' a lot
    more real/graspable.
    
    Hope this helps!
    patty

    This didn't come up much with my son until he was about 4 or so, when
    he noticed that he only had *3* grandparents (my Dad died when I was
    9).  We looked at pictures of my Dad, and he did, of course, notice
    that Grampa Joe (for whom my son was named) was a relatively young man
    when he died ("He was very old, mommy.").  I have always tried to be
    very honest with Joe, while giving him only the information he needs,
    and the conversation went something like this:
    
    Joe:  Why did Grampa Joe die, Mommy?
    Mom:  His heart stopped beating, honey; that's called a heart attack.
    Joe:  Do people always die from a hard attack? (*not a typo!)
    Mom:  No, honey, but Grampa Joe was locked into a hotel room, and the
    ambulance driver couldn't get in to help him.  It was very sad.
    
    (pause for young child thought...)
    
    Joe:  Will I die, like Grampa Joe?
    Mom:  Someday, yes, you will die.  Everybody dies eventually.
    Joe:  Will you die, Mommy?
    Mom:  Yes, I will; like I said, everybody does die sooner or later.
    Joe:  When will you die?
    Mom:  I don't know for sure, but hopefully not until you're a big grown
    up man with kids of your own.
    Joe:  When is that, next week?  (*all time was measured as next week or
    last week by Joe at that age...)
    Mom:  No, Joe, I hope it won't be for lots and lots of years.  But, I
    want you to understand that an accident could make me or make Daddy die
    sooner than we should.
    Joe:  Than who would take care of me?
    Mom:  Who would you want to take care of you?
    Joe:  Nana or maybe Uncle Marc, I guess.
    Mom:  Well, then that's who would take care of you.
    
    Or something like that, anyway.  It worked.  He wasn't overly focused
    on death after that, although he did ask a couple of questions on other
    occasions.  He *was* very interested in what Grampa Joe was like, etc.,
    for quite a while after that, and asked to have a picture of him for
    his room, which we supplied happily.
    
    M.
    

> .... and besides, I
>    couldn't wait until they were old enough to have their own house,
>    because I wanted to come mess it all up on them!

Wouldn't work in our house.  Our 4 year old is convinced that he will
be living in our house forever.  He gets VERY upset if we even suggest
that he might want to have his own house some day.  

I certainly hope he changes his mind in about 20 years! :-)

						Mark

    I got a notice in my daughters book bag yesterday....
    
      			"WHAT ABOUT THE CHILDREN"
        		Issues in Grief and Loss
    
    
    Explore the types of losses experience by children.
    
    Explore common reactions to grief and loss for each developmental
    stage.
    
    Identify techniques and activites that help children.
    
    Review community resources and texts that enhance recovery.
    
    Presented by Karen Carpenter, Author of "Something Happened In My House
    - A Journey of Children's Grief"
    
    			Wednesday, May 3rd
    			   7pm-9:30pm
    		Marlboro Middle School Auditorium
    		    Thresher Drive (near RT 85)
    
    Ticket prices:  Advance $12.50, at the door $15.00
    
    Revelent books will be available for purchase at the event.
    
    Make checks payable to :  	The Grief Recovery Group
                                849-8G Boston Post Road
    				Marlboro, Ma. 01752
    				(508) 460-1994
    				FAX (508) 485-9873
    

changing the topic a bit but...

>Wouldn't work in our house.  Our 4 year old is convinced that he will
>be living in our house forever.  He gets VERY upset if we even suggest
>that he might want to have his own house some day.  

The book, Love You Forever might help.  About a kid (boy) growing up 
and how his mom is always creeping into his room at night when he is
asleep to tell him how much she loves him.  Each page is a different 
stage in the boy's life.  Eventually, he gets his own house down the
street from his mom, but late at night, she sneaks over to his house, 
climbs up a ladder into his room and holds him and tells him how much
she loves him.  I won't spill the surprise ending...

re: .53

sounds exactly like my daughter except it was the dog across the street
who died and she was two and a half at the time.  I talked to my pedi
about this and he suggested renting/watching the movie Charlotte's Web, 
which deals with death as a natural course of life (as opposed to Lion
King and Bambi, which deal with pre-mature deaths)...  Emily couldn't 
sit still for the entire length of Charlotte's Web at the time, but we
have continued to discuss death very matter of factly and now she does
to.  Sometimes to my dismay -- she sometimes talks about death matter of 
factly to others (adults) and they will look at me as if to say, what
do you talk about at home.  But at least now she seems to accept the idea.

Mary

    
    RE:-1
    
    ...  the book "love You Forever"
    I got this book after my first son was born. (I now have 2 sons.)..
    but even this little reminder of the book still brings me to tears.
    It's so beautiful.  Knowing how my heart feels as a young (Ha!) mother
    of two young boys; that is expressed very well, but was really
    insightful was I finally realized how my mother probably still feels
    for her two grown up sons who live (one close, one far away) out of the
    home at 33 & 35 years old.  A truely wonderful book not to miss; a
    children's book for all ages including us 38 year old children who just
    happen to be mothers.  The only problem I have is I have to be careful
    when I read it.  My older son now understands, but 15 month old Kevin
    doesn't understand why Mom sobs everytime she reads it.  Guess what I'm
    going home to do tonight!!!!!!!!
    
    I repeat....   **GREAT BOOK****
    

    Ditto Ditto .... "Love You Forever" ... is a great book!
    
    ..Lori

Our son, Ryan, died at birth on April 18, 1994.  When I picked up my other
son Jonathan (age 3.5) from preschool I told him that his brother's heart 
had stopped and he had died.  He was very quiet in the car ride to the 
hospital and told Mom the news when he saw her.  

Since then, Jonathan, almost 5 now, still asks questions as do my wife and I.
Adults can read and discuss.  Kids rely on adults to shake out the fear.
We never hid our sadness from him.  For 2 months, he went through some 
sadness (grouchy and whiny) when he realized that his baby brother would 
not be there to play with him.

Jonathan went through a stage of fearing death for anyone he knew. When we 
explained that older people usually die before younger people, he quickly 
figured that grandpa dies, then grandma, then dad, then mom.

We have mentioned know that all living things eventually die in this world.  
It would also get crowded here if death was not part of life.  We are now 
expecting a baby girl on July 25th (planned C-section) and Jonathan thinks 
that this baby will also die.  We hope to prove him wrong on this !

Jonathan occasionally talks about death - he does not want to die. We all 
agree that living in this world is fun.  We also mention that life in heaven 
is our reward for life here.  Heaven is still an abstract concept for him and 
we try to answer his questions at a level that matches his reasoning ability.
    
    The grief notes conference may help those who need additional support,
    especially during that 1st year.

	I'm typing through tears...
	
	praying that you all heal from the pain of Ryan's death,

	and, that on July 25th you will be holding your healthy baby
	girl!

	

    It took my daughter (9 at the time) a full 6 months before the reality
    of my mother's death hit her.  She's older, so she could carry the
    reality to other (potential) deaths in the family.  Her dad has
    treatable cancer and she put 2 and 2 together (Gramma died of cancer)
    and started having the worst nightmares.
    
    We did take her to a therapist.  With HMOs the cost is minimal and the
    peace of mind of having someone who dealt with this type of emotional
    behavior, made the choice the right one for us.   Sarah spent the first
    three visits talking about Gramma, and was ready to talk about her Dad
    after that.
    
    If you think that this is starting to interfere with her daily life --
    for us, Sarah refused to sleep by herself and then only with every
    light on and if I stayed upstairs until she fell asleep -- then
    visiting a therapist may be right.  If you just need some reassurance
    or some ideas on how to react, then again, a therapist may be right. 
    It couldn't hurt.
    
    My 2 cents,
    Diana

>    We did take her to a therapist.  With HMOs the cost is minimal ...

Most HMOs limit psychological services to 10 or 20 visits.

    For our HMO, the visits are 20 per year.  I would say that in our
    situation we needed more than 20 visits.  If we had not had the
    additional situation to deal with, however, I think that Sarah would
    not have required more than 5 visits.
    
    In our case, the HMO was willing to extend the number of visits based
    on patient need.  As it happens, we got to the 20 visit mark just as
    the year ended and we started with a fresh 20 visits after the first of
    the year.
    
    Diana

    Your public librarian should be able to assist you in finding some
    books appropriate for you to read to your child.  Sometimes, just being
    able to talk within your family about the life & death of a loved one
    is good for everyone.  

    Local hospices also have many resources 
    and pointers.
    
    Dolores