Conference moira::parenting

    By DSS may I assume you mean Massachusetts?  I believe they take these
    things very seriously especially when the source is credible.  I know
    of an instance in Mass when a teenage girl (age 14) told her teacher
    and school nurse that her parents beat her.  Now understand that the
    incident was your basic slap on the mouth for typical teen freshness.
    (No nits or flames, please - don't shoot the messenger here.)  Anyway,
    DSS intervened immediately and forced the family to seek regular
    counseling (the daughter finally admitted that it was an exaggerated
    case) together.  I think this lasted for about a year (probation).
    
    The DSS caseload also depends on how quickly they react, and what the
    problem is.  I have heard from DYS (New Hampshire's version of DSS)
    that because of cutbacks to the state's budget, they can only intervene
    on what they call serious infractions (this was about a year ago - so I
    am quoting old news here).
    
    -sandy
    

    
    Yes it is Mass.  I'm looking for possibly a step by step process that
    the DSS goes thru.
    
    Chris D.

I know of a case (in Massachusetts) where a 4-year old told her daycare
instructor that her mother beat her with a broom and pushed her down the
stairs ... and I believe another story was she was "hung by her fingernails
on the bedroom window ledge"!!

DSS took it extremely seriously.  I believe daycare never warned them they
were "reporting" the contents of the conversation ... the parents just received
a certified letter in the mail to report to the DSS investigator.  They hired
a "domestics" attorney.  It was ordered that the girl have a complete
physical (looking for bruises or signs of abuse?) and the "family" have a
counselling evaluation.

Based on the above, it was decided that there were no physical signs of
abuse, the Pedi saw the girl regularly and had no cause for alarm in any
past physicals/treatments, the counsellor had some feedback (but nothing
earth-shattering!) ... so the case was "closed", however, that only means
"no further action" - file remains pending for a year (in case another report
is made?).

The child is extremely bright and can be quite manipulative.  The mother's
story goes like this ... she was sweeping when the girl demanded the broom.
Mother refused.  Girl grabbed broom.  Mother pulled on broom, girl's grip
let go and she boomeranged to the floor.  Mother went downstairs.  Girl
was determined.  An argument (of sorts) entailed.  Mother ordered girl upstairs
to her room.  Girl did not want to go.  Mother pulled her along.  Girl
grabbed stairway railing, again her grip was broken and she slid down the
last two stairs.

So the facts kind of follow suit here ... but at quite different ends of the
spectrum!

And the results of all this?  The girl ultimately WON COMPLETE CONTROL.  The
mother to this day is petrified to correct or discipline the child for fear
her own daughter will report her to the "system" again!!!!  So her father,
who is quite easy-going, is the only discipliner!  It drove a huge wedge
between the mother and daughter.  It caused unforgiveable pain for both
parents.  This incident only fueled her manipulative ways and lessened 
(much needed) discipline and control (from the parents). 

Imagine raising a child with the fear of DSS hanging over your head FOREVER?!

Dottie

    The child my question was based on is only 2 years old.  So the 
    consequences in -.1 souldn't apply here.  But I imagine the events
    like the registered letter, meeting a dss officer, the physical, and
    the councelor will all be the same.
    
    Thanks, 
    Chris D.  

    Here's my understanding of how DSS in Massachusetts works :
    
       A 51A form (report of abuse and/or neglect) is filed with DSS.
    
       DSS sends a social worker to check out the situation.  If it's not
          considered to be a problem, the 51A is screened out.  If it's 
          considered to be a situation where the child is in danger, s/he
          is removed from the home and put into foster care.  If it's 
          considered to be problem but not dangerous for the child, s/he is 
          left in the home.  
    
      If there is a problem, DSS petitions the (district) court for a Care and
         Protection order for the child.  This says that DSS believes that the
         child is in need of care and protection from someone -- usually the
         parents, but it could be someone else.  At this point DSS is often
         granted temporary custody of the child.  Physical custody may
         remain with the parents, or may be granted to DSS (i.e. foster
         care).
    
      DSS writes a service plan which indicates what each of the parties in
         the case are to do.  For the parents, this often includes things
         like counseling, AA, regular visits with the child (if the child
         is not living at home).  For the child, this includes things like
         going to school, doing homework regularly, abiding by the rules of
    	 the home.  If there are foster parents, they may be included in
         the plan as well.
    
      The case is reviewed periodically in court (about every 3 months) to
         determine where custody should remain.  At any of these hearings,
         custody could be given to the parents if they have made
         significant progress toward correcting the situation.
    	
      If the problem is not resolved, after some amount of time (usually way 
         too long in MA, IMHO), a trial date is set.  It is up to DSS to
         show that the parents are not fit and that the child is in need of
    	 care and protection.  If DSS fails to do so, the case is closed
         and the parents retain custody.  If DSS is successful, they get
         "permanent" custody and the child is put (or remains) in foster 
         care.
    
      Even if DSS is awarded "permanent" custody, the case is not closed.
         The parents may still petition for custody, but the emphasis is
         shifted.  It is now up to them to prove that they are fit to be
    	 parents for the child.
    
      If DSS feels that the parents will never be suitable, they can apply
         to probate court to have all parental rights terminated (filing a
         2110, I believe).  I'm not sure what this process is like, but if
         if the 2110 is granted, the child would then be eligible for
         adoption. 
    
    I think that these are the steps that a case goes through.  I've been
    working with the CASA project (Court Appointed Special Advocates) for
    several months.  We get assigned to Care and Protection cases, and our
    job is to interview anyone involved in the case (or anyone who knows
    anyone involved in the case!) and to make recommendations to the judge
    as to what is in the best interest of the child.  So far, my case has
    only been in pre-trial hearings, but the trial date has just been set.
    After that, I should know more about the later stages of the process.
    
                                                   Tracy
       

    I have reported a child abuse case last summer.  I live in NH, so the
    process may be different than those in Mass, but here's what happened
    in my case.
    
    A little boy, in our neighborhood was always on the playground 
    playing with the other kids.  He seemed to be a great child.  
    But I kept noticing that the child was extremely dirty.  I just 
    thought he had been playing outside for a while and got dirty.  
    But then I noticed that he was outside at 7:00 in the morning and was
    still dirty.  One day he came up onto our porch to play with my
    daughter and I noticed that the child had bruises on his head, arms,
    and legs.
    
    The next day, at 7:00AM, he was sitting on our porch, all by himself in
    just his underwear with a jar of peanut butter and a butter knife. 
    That was his breakfast.  
    
    I looked at him and said, "Does your mommy know that you're outside in
    just your undies?"  It was a little chilly that morning too.  He told
    me that his mommy had some friends over and she told him to go outside
    and then proceeded to push him out the door. When he said that he was
    hungry, the peanut butter and knife is what she gave him.  
    
    I immediately sent my husband over to try to find out which apartment
    the little boy came from while I tried to dress the child in a
    sweatsuit of my daughters so that he'd be at least warm.  We found out
    which apartment it was.  My husband walked up to the back sliding glass
    door of the apartment.  The place was empty.  The door was open.  My
    husband looked into the apartment and saw, sitting on the kitchen table
    was about 8 bags of marijuana and rolls of money.  He banged on the
    door and nobody came to the door.
    
    When my hubby came back and told me what he found, I immediately looked
    in the phone book and called the number that was next to CHILD ABUSE
    PREVENTION.  The woman at the CAP center asked me my name and I told
    her that I wasn't going to give my real name, but gave her another name
    so that if I called back, she would remember who I was.  She asked me
    the following questions:
    
    How old is the child?
    What signs of abuse are there?
    Do you know what the child's name is?
    What are the names of his parents?
    Where does he live?
    How long have you noticed these symptoms?
    Has the child mentioned anything to you about his home life?
    What does the child look like?
    Is the child abusive or withdrawn?
    Have you ever seen the parents supervising the child out on the
     playground?  (This was a 3-4 year old child and I had NEVER seen the
     parents!)
    
    
    She took down all the information and told me that she would call the
    local authorities to come to his house to check the story out.  She
    suggested that if the parent didn't come looking for the child, to
    maybe keep him busy out on the playground until after the police
    questioned the parents.  So I took out the coloring book and crayons
    and my daughter and him colored on one of the playground picnic tables.
    The police arrived about 1/2 hour after my conversation with the CAP
    center woman.  The police never came to my house.  I called the woman
    back later that day to ask what had happened.  She explained that the
    police made a report and gave that report to a welfare/CAP
    representative.  The boys mother was arrested for dealing a controlled
    substance.  The child was taken from the parents for observation,
    questioning, a physical, etc.  The doctors discovered that the child
    had numerous cuts and bruises.  He had a broken finger that had healed
    in the wrong direction (obviously), he was undernourished, had infected
    feet (from not wearing any shoes), had numerous infected bug bites, was
    tired, and had a double ear infection.
    
    The family moved away 1 month later.  I called the CAP center to check
    on how things were and the woman told me that the child was living with
    a relative and is happy, healthy and growing strong.  The family and
    the child are in counseling and are doing extremely well.  The mother
    has gone through drug rehab and is now trying very hard to finish her
    high school diploma.  She has gotten a job and is working with CAP to
    straighten her life out.
    
    So I guess this was a good story.  But let me tell you, I have learned
    to become more observant of children, pets, and adults.  I don't make
    assumptions, I just try to see if anything is out of the ordinary.  
    
    Please don't flame me for anything that is written here.  The procedure
    I used may not have been correct (or maybe it was), but I try to just
    focus on the outcome.  This child obviously needed help, and I got him
    the care he needed.  To me that's all that counts. He is happy and
    healthly and I'm so happy for him.
    
     

>    Please don't flame me for anything that is written here.  

Flame you?  You deserve a commendation.  Many people would have tried to 
ignore the situation.  Thank you for what you did, and for sharing this with 
us.

I question what your husband did, but only from the standpoint of his safety, 
not because of what he or you did to try to help the child.

Clay

    I agree with Clay, regarding what you did and what your husband did
    (very dangerous).
    
    The child I'm talking about is a 2 year old girl.  Her daycare teacher
    (or whatever you call them) reported the possible sexual abuse to the
    DSS yesterday.  All they told her was they were going to send the
    parents a letter and copy her.  We were wondering what comes after the
    letter.
    
    Chris D.

    The reason my husband went over to their house was to see if the mother
    realized that her son was outside in just his underwear.
    
    He was just going to say something like: "Excuse me, I just thought I
    would let you know that your son is out on the playground in his
    underwear and I didn't know if you were aware of it."  Just something
    to let her know that he was outside like that and to make note of what
    her answer would be.  After hubby saw what was on the table, he just
    came right home.  I guess she was in the shower because when the cop
    had gone to her house, her hair was still in a towel.
    
    Obviously she wasn't too concerned about who saw the stuff on the table
    because the drapes were wide open, the table was purely visable from
    the outside of the door, the light was on, and the door was open about
    1-2 inches.
    
    

    Reply .5 is exactly the way it works.
    
    We saw the whole process from beginning to end and .5 is right on the
    money.
    
    We became temporary Foster parents for a child during a DSS
    investigation.  If the child's mother had cooperated in any way with
    DSS or the court appointed investigator, she would surely have gotten
    her child back.  In fact, if she had cooperated to begin with and not
    lied about simple things she would not have lost custody in the first
    place.
    
    All the people we worked with from DSS were very caring people and
    really want a child to be with the mother/father.
    
    Phyllis
    
    

    In re .9, I wonder if the mother left things the way they were as
    a cry for help of some sort.  Just MHO.
    
    I'm very concerned about abuse, too.  At the same time, I do yell,
    and I have spanked (I'm trying not to, but sometimes I feel there
    are spankable offences.  No flames, please).  I am glad that everyone
    is so much more concerned about abuse, but I'm worried about the
    case that Dottie mentioned about the kid using the "system" to
    manipulate the family.  I am concerned that if my son happens to
    say, "My mommy hit me last night" that some well-meaning teacher
    will report me to DSS and that, essentially, I don't have the right to
    discipline my child in the way that I see fit.  
    
    Again, I make every effort not to spank, and I don't want to talk about
    the pros and cons of capital punishment.  But sometimes the fastest
    route to some kids' brains is via the seat of the pants.

    
    From what I'm told, the DSS people are good at weeding out the
    punishment spanking from the abusive hitting.  I wouldn't worry too
    much about it.
    
    Chris D.

re .11:

>    Again, I make every effort not to spank, and I don't want to talk about
>    the pros and cons of capital punishment.  But sometimes the fastest
>    route to some kids' brains is via the seat of the pants.

You meant *corporal* punishment, right?  Just checking.

    Whoops.....corporal I meant.  Thank you!!!

As a school committee member I've seen a couple of things that would lead to 
believe that you're both right. It appears to depend on the social worker. I've
seen a vindictive neighbor file a 51A and watched a decent parent's concerns
and actions twisted 65 ways by a truly sadistic social worker. I've seen another
social worker dismiss a similar case after a careful and caring examination
of facts. 
I do want to stress that schools and teacher are, under the law, required to
report and to cooperate with DSS in abuse cases. This sometimes puts them in
an awkward position with parents. Parents trust the confidentiality of the 
school system and are often shocked at the information that is required to be
disclosed to a DSS investigator.

    
    This is in response to the reply about weeding out the incorrect
    reports.  If there is abuse (sexual/physical) going on, the daycare
    center usually has more than one instance to go on, and daycare
    teachers are (or most are) trained to spot actual abuse (ie. certain
    areas of the body which are bruised, which under normal situations
    would not be).  
    
    My daughter is a typical 6 year old.  Last summer, she had alot of
    bruises on her shins (even I was concerned -- thought she was anemic). 
    I mentioned it to her doctor, who assured me that they were normal due
    to the amount of outdoor playing children do in the spring/summer. 
    Well, I had said something to my daughter in the effect of "God, your
    teachers are going to think I beat you".  Would you know, one of her
    teachers had asked her "Where did you get all those bruises?" and my
    lovely child said back "My mommy beats me!", then the teacher said to
    her "Well, what do you do?" and she said "I beat her back".  Luckily,
    the teacher knew that my daughter was joking (Most children who are
    physically abused help to cover up the abuse by taking the blame
    themselves) and told me about it when I picked her up.  At first I was
    shocked, but then I laughed it off --- It is amazing what kids will
    come up with . . . .
    
    Debby
    
    

    Re: -1 that reminds me of the time my son Robert got a black eye on
    the coffee table. He was about 2 and it was shortly after my divorce
    and my second son Shane was born.  We were having dinner at my parents'
    and my father asked, "Robert, how did you get that shiner?" To which
    Robert replied "Mommy".  I'll never forget how everyone went silent
    and stopped eating, with looks of total concern on their faces.  I
    could almost read their minds-- single mother, under a lot of stress,
    takes it out on her kids.  Until I repeated the question "Robert, how
    did you get that black eye?" He said "Grampy."  Boy did I feel weird.
    But it really was the coffee table, and he's going on nine, now and
    his brother Shane is nearly seven, and the only beating that ever goes
    on at my house is when they beat on each other!
    
    Kim

    to the base noter: I can make a copy of some DSS info that I have. I 
    volunteered for a parent-aide program and went thru a 12-hour training
    session. The packet of info explains step-by-step what the procedures 
    are.  When someone calls DSS to report a case of child abuse, he/she
    can remain anonymous. If after the call, the DSS feels that there would 
    be a reason for a house-call, then they will go out to the house and
    talk to the parent(s). However, they do not make visits on each and
    every call that comes in. Only if they determine a "need". Sometimes it 
    takes several calls to the DSS before they take action.
                            

    
    Thanks anyway.  DSS made the house call and their evaluation was that
    nothing was going on.  I don't believe it myself, but at least now it's
    on record that a complaint was made.
    
    Chris D.

    
    My wife and I had a bad experience with the DSS. A lunatic ex- friend
    of hers filed a phoney complaint of physical, sexual and emotional
    abuse of our children. Oh, and neglect too!
    
    The DSS worker called to set up a visitation. A lawyer advised us not
    to refuse ( you have the right to refuse them a visit) because then
    they may have taken our children.
    
    During the interview with my kids, we were naturally made to leave the
    room. We were still able to hear the interview and I wish I had
    secretly taped it. Anyway, the interviewer asked very leading questions
    and tried to get my son to confirm the allegations. She kept asking the
    same questions over and over, which frustrated and confused my son.
    
    Fortunately, he is very articulate and was able to set her straight.
    
    The thing that got me angry is that it took months to get a copy of the
    report. In fact, our lawyer had to write them several letters to get
    it, and it wasn't particularly accurate.
    
    The information not given in the previous replies is that the
    DSS and can work with the Police and the Child Abuse unit to have
    you arrested without even speaking to you. Oh, you get a chance for
    a hearing, but it is usually after your arrest, arraignment and maybe
    even the pre-trial conference: a bit late at that point.
    
    I've known cases where innocent things get blown out of proportion.
    
    Suppose you are watching the 2 year old girl from next door. Your
    husband helps her put on her shoes and tucks in her shirt before
    her mother comes and gets her. During dinner, the girl says "Guess
    what Mommy, Mr. Jones put his hand down my pants" The parents might
    freak out, grill the child until she can't remember the fact that Mr.
    Jones was only tucking in her shirt.
    
    If the parents call the DSS, and all the little girl can say is that
    Mr. Jones stuck the hand down the pants. Mr. Jones is in trouble.
    In fact, I belive the DA and a detective might be behind the mirror
    during the interview and swear out a warrant shortly afterward.
     
    Since our dealings with the DSS, my wife and I will not watch anyone
    else's children under any circumstances. And we are scared of the DSS.
    
    Maybe the above example isn't the best, but If someone ever files a
    complaint against you, your life and future is in the hands of an
    underpaid, overworked, undertrained, possibly prejudiced person
    who works in a system that can arrest people first and ask questions
    later. 
    
    Guy
    
    
    

I've often "worried" about what our neighbors might be thinking when Juli's
have a stubborn fit about getting dressed in the morning!  Juli is very
good-natured and pretty easy-going and flexible, HOWEVER, like all 2-year-olds,
she has that occasional "I WILL CONTROL AND WIN" determination:

	eg:

	"Mommy - NO!  NO! Mommy ... don't touch me Mommy!  Go away
	Daddy! ... don't take my pants! ... 

	and if you get into holding kicking legs, you might even hear:

	"don't hold me down, Mommy ... you're hurting me, Mommy ..."

And don't forget to add the high-pitched, screeching screams!

Thank God our neighbors have all raised kids ... and hopefully they haven't
forgotten about the terrible two's!!!

An innocent, non-painful endeavor which to an "outsider" can sound like
serious abuse!

Dottie

    I think that as parents it is scary at how much control DSS could have
    over you and your children.
    
    I have often felt somehow guilty when I drop my daughter at daycare and
    she has another new bruise on her leg or knee.  It drives me crazy to
    feel compelled to extensively explain the bruise.  
    
    I too have worried about my neighbors comments on hearing my children
    in midst of yet another temper tantrum.  However recently my neighbors
    children and grandchilden have moved in with them and the screaming is
    now coming from their house and mine.  
    
    Angie

* This note entered anonymously by the moderator.*
    
My son informed the sitter yesterday that "Mommy spanked me, and it
hurt."  She then told me that if he said anything like that at school,
the teacher would be obligated to report the incident to the Dept.
of Social Services and we could lose the children to foster care.

The sitter also said that several neighbors were "concerned" about
the kids, because of all the yelling I do.  My husband is furious
with me, the sitter says my kids are afraid of me, and I feel like
scum.  

    Well, I hit the panic button and called my therapist, who said she had
    to report the incident to DSS.  She also gave me the PArents Anonymous
    hotline number, which I called.  This morning we had a brief, but
    pleasant visit from a DSS caseworker who was very nice and sympathetic.
    He does want to talk to my sitter, who is pretty PO'd with me now
    because (1) DSS is in our life now, and (2) she's going to have to get
    a license.  Apparently, no matter how many kids you take care of now,
    you have to be licensed in Mass.  He is also going to call the
    pediatrician (the caseworker, I mean).
    
    So now, just becasue I made a phone call, I've got all these people
    angry at me:  my husband (who says he can't trust me), my sitter,
    most of the neighborhood, etc., etc.
    
    I feel like I'm guilty till proven innocent.  I'm not saying I'm right,
    but everyone has taken my son's word for what happened.  No one, not
    even my husband, wants to listen to me.  
    
    My sitter has told me that if she has to go through a lot of hoops to
    get licensed, then she'll have to consider getting out of the day care
    business, which would make her very sad, and somehow, everything is my
    fault.
    
    Somehow, everyone is making me feel like I've ruined people's lives...
    all I did was make a phone call for what I thought was help.  I will
    never do that again.

    Wow, what a crummy situation. It sure feels like betrayal when
    you call for support to your therapist, and get reported to the
    DSS. 
    
    I have always wondered what the specifics governing mandated 
    reporters are. I bet there is a lot more leeway than it seems, 
    and that some of them report over *any* incident, because they're
    worried about erring on the other side - understandable, but...
    
    A family in my son's school was reported for investigation and
    the report was found to be baseless. They said the caseworker was
    quite reasonable and they just worked with her patiently through
    the process. 
    
    On the other hand, a friend of mine was falsely reported-on 
    several years ago and it was a hellish experience for her. I wish
    you luck and hope you can get some support.
    
    Lucy

    I thought that patients were protected from anything they said to 
    their phychiatrists, just like a confessor is protected about anything
    they confess to a priest.  
    
    I feel for you going through this mess.  Please let us know how 
    things go.
    
    Jane
    

    Your sitter is breaking the law. It is *she* that is breaking the law.
    You are not forcing her to take care of children without a license and
    as she is (presumably) an adult, it was *her* decision to make that
    move. (can you see where this is all going?)

    	You are not responsible for the actions that another person takes.
    Sorry to break this to you but it not *you* that is destroying her
    life, it is *her* bad judgment that got her into trouble.

    	As far as your situation, I feel for you. I have often had
    discussions with other mothers who have said that they are afraid to
    spank or punish their children for fear of being misunderstood and
    reported.

    	That being said, it sounds like your situation is a little more
    serious than just being misunderstood. I think that going to your
    counselor was a very brave and sensible thing to do. I sure that your
    counselor was acting in accordance with the law and is not trying to
    get you when she reported you. Now that things are in the open perhaps
    your entire family can work on the dynamics that are causing:

    	mistrust between you and your husband
    	uncontrolled anger from you (in the form of yelling)
    	whatever other situations may exist

   	I commend you on your decision to seek help and even though it may
    look like things are coming down around you, the help is available to
    put it back together.

    			Wendy 	

    If your sitter is illegally taking care of children in her home - it's
    not your fault.  If you find yourself in need of help to gain control
    with your "problem" you should be viewed as someone who is trying to do
    what is right and not "scum". 
    
    A friend of mine had a rough haul with DSS.  Her teen (read rebel)
    daughter was mad one morning because her step-father slapped her (a
    reflex action as the daughter was coming after the step-father) and the
    daughter reported it to the guidance councelor.  DSS intervened and to
    make a long story short the step-father now has a record of "child
    abuse" and the mother of "child neglect" because she let the husband
    slap the child.  This will be on their record - permanently and will
    really mess things up for them.  They were in the hands of a caseworker
    for a year.  Now the parents can't be in responsible situations with
    other people's children - daycare, teaching, etc.  Stinks, doesn't it! 
    Especially since the parents are GREAT parents and the situation was a
    typical teenager rebelling against parents.
    
    -sandy
    
    Don't feel as if you did the wrong thing.  Your actions just caught a
    few people who really were doing wrong - and now they have to fess up!
    

    I don't think that "yelling" necessarily = "uncontrolled anger" (.26). 
    Frankly, parents who never, ever raise their voices, whose waters
    always have a slick surface, give me the *whammies*.  They're doing
    *something* with that anger (swallowing it)--I don't want to be around
    when it blows.  ("He was a quiet guy, kept to himself....")
    
    Leslie

    Valid point, certainly yelling can be considered a legitimate and 
    acceptable way of displaying anger, however, when:

    	"several neighbors are "concerned" about the kids, because of all
    the yelling I'm doing"

    	is the situation, I think that that goes just a little beyond the
    regular and acceptable display of anger and passes into the boundary of
    uncontrolled behavior.

    				Wendy

    <Entered by moderator for the author of 92.23 "in a tangle", who >
    <wants to remain anonymous.                                      >
    
    re .29:  The houses are so close together that when I'm in my kitchen,
    I can hear my neighbor talking on her phone in her kitchen.  Sometimes
    at night I can hear my neighbors on the other side running up and down
    their stairs.  I can also hear my neighbors across the street when they
    argue, and I can hear another neighbor's kids when they throw tantrums.
    Which is often.  I am sorry, I am feeling a little defensive these days
    and I feel like I want everyone to know everything.
    
    *****************8

>    	"several neighbors are "concerned" about the kids, because of all
>    the yelling I'm doing"

>    	is the situation, I think that that goes just a little beyond the
>    regular and acceptable display of anger and passes into the boundary of
>    uncontrolled behavior.

    				Wendy


	When compared to hitting, I would say yelling certainly is controlled 
	behavior. I'm not saying it's right or wrong to yell, however, in lieu
	of hitting I'd say it was a controlled response.
	

    Re .23:  Is it the "official" view that 'Spanking = Child Abuse'?
    
    -Tracy
    

   re: .32:  Is it the "official" view that 'Spanking = Child Abuse'?
    
   Well, the note you reference is not mine, and thankfully I've never
   had any run-ins with DSS, but I'll take a stab at a possible answer..
   
   To give you a simple answer, I believe that for some people the answer
   is 'Yes', they believe that 'Spanking = Child Abuse'.  Maybe someone
   else enter something about what DSS "officially" says about spanking.

   ** Warning ** - personal opinion coming up... 

   I think people (in general) have a misunderstanding of what spanking
   is,  and how it should be used.  In my opinion, spanking (if you chose
   to use it) should be used as matter-of-factly as many people use
   time-outs or taking a certain object away if its not used properly. 
   
   I think the fear/concern that many people have is that in the cases of
   child abuse that we all hear about on the news, spanking is done only
   as a last resort, when the parent is near the end of their rope.  That
   is, spanking, in those situations, was done when the parent was not
   completely in control, and therefore was classified as abuse because
   the parent could have or actually did injure the child.
   
   re: .23 (I think) - anonymous author - I am in NO way implying
   anything about your situation, I hope you understand that.  I am
   simply trying to offer my opinion about the public's fear of spanking
   as an acceptable action by parents.
   
   I believe that if people chose to use spanking, it should be under
   pre-defined, clearly understood circumstances, and that it should be a
   simple matter of cause and effect.  That is, everybody (parents and
   kids) understands that if you do "xxx", the resulting consequences
   will be "yyy".   That way, you avoid the fears that a parent will
   strike out at a child in a nearly out-of-control situation, and will
   somehow injure the child.
   
   By the way, I do not believe this should be reserved for spanking,
   either.  I believe that a clear set of "house rules" makes it easier
   for everbody to understand what is supposed to happen, and what the
   consequences of unacceptable behaviour are.   
   
   For example - my kids know that it is not acceptable to write/color on
   anything but paper or coloring books (ie, not the walls or rugs).
   That is so clearly understood that one day I walked into the room when
   my 3.5 year old was drawing on the rug.  I didn't have to say anything
   - she simply stood up and handed me the pen.  No anger, no yelling -
   it was simply the normal consequence of an action she already knew was
   unacceptable.  I believe this mind-set can/should be encouraged for
   other areas of unacceptable behaviour.
   
   Anyway, I don't know if this is really true or not, but that's
   something I wanted to share.
   
   Peace,
   
   - Tom

    Hi,
    
    	I have been following this particular topic with interest because I
    was in a similar situation not too long ago.
    
    	I am a single parent which in itself is very stressfull.  I was
    living with my fiance' and we started to have problems.  He belived I
    was too easy on the dicipline of my son.  At one time I just said,
    "fine, then you take care of it from now on."  He did, Don't get me
    wrong, he realy cares for me and my son but was brought up totaly
    different.  His father was very hard on him and his brothers and they
    all turned out to be very successfull adults.
    
    	After a while we dicided to go to counciling to try and get some
    problems solved before we made definite wedding plans.  One side note: 
    He is in the military and their way of dealing with certian situations
    are totaly different from the real world.  The main topic of
    conversation was my son and our different views on disciplin.  I made
    the comment that he was too forcefull on my son.  
    
    	We went to counciling for 3 more sessions and one day I get a
    letter stating that my son will be taken from me if my fiance' didnt
    move out and continue counciling.  Their view was that he was too hard
    on him and was also in danger of hurting me.  I later found out that he
    was going to private sessions.  The councilers determined he was
    getting out of control.
    
    	I left and havent been involved with him since.  I still get
    letters requesting me to seak counciling because they felt, from his
    statements, that I was verbaly abusive to my son.  They haven't taken
    it any further because I'm am no longer attached to the military.
    
    	It is so hard to say where dicipline stops and the abuse begins. 
    50 years ago is was acceptable (in some areas) to slap a kid or spank
    one if the offences warrented.
    
    	Sorry this has gotten so long.  I just wanted to put in my
    situation.
    
    
    Virginia

    RE: neighbors commenting on yelling.
    
    I used to get comments from my neighbors regarding hearing me yelling
    and hearing Alicia crying and I too was concerned that maybe I yelled
    too much.  However, since this time the neighbors in question have had
    their three sons and their familys move in with them and the yelling is
    coming from their house also.  (All three sons were in the military and
    have all gotten out at the same time, there is a total of 6 adults and
    five children living there now). I have not heard any comments since.
    
    I feel much better that my discipline techniques are very similar to my
    friends and neighbors.  It's ashame that as parents we have to worry
    about disciplining your children.
    
    As someone mentioned earlier discipline was much stricter in the
    previous decades. 
    
    Angie  
    
    

    <Entered by the moderator for the noter (author of .0) who remains
    anonymous.>
    
    My husband talked to the sitter yesterday.  She said that the DSS
    caseworker had called her on Tuesday afternoon and said that he was
    going to drop everything, that the allegations of abuse were
    unsupported.  She told my husband that the caseworker didn't ask about
    her if she was licensed or anything.  She told my husband that she had
    "been thinking about getting licensed anyway."  

    I went to my first Parents Anonymous meeting this week and it was a big
    help.  I am not the only person out there who is stressed out,
    struggling, and feeling boxed in.

    I want to thank everyone for their prayers and support and especially
    thank the mods for keeping this discussion confidential.  This has been
    a very painful episode for me.

    Final question, the DSS told me that the file remains  open for a year,
    then it is closed permanently.  Does this really happen?  Or is this
    snake going to bite me again?

According to a friend of mine who was under the year long "probation", they 
really do close the case when there is no evidence of abuse.

(They were reported by a daycare provider who was trying to get even.  They 
changed daycare after they found the woman asleep three days in a row, and 
they were able to enter the house, get their child's stuff, and take him home 
without waking her. The dog was also barking.  Their son had fallen and had 
cut his forehead a couple days before, so she reported that they had hit him.)

Going to Parents Anonymous is a great idea.  Good luck.


Pat

<Entered by mod for author of .0, who remains anonymous>

Well, we got the letter from the DSS on Saturday and the report of 
abuse was supported, BUT the case is considered closed because I'm
in counseling and because I joined PA.  I'm just heartsick, I guess
it's becasue I spanked my son with the wooden spoon.  So I don't know
if I should be upset because the finding of abuse was supported or
glad because the case is closed.  Please someone tell me when this
will all end.  I feel like my life is over.

No, your life isn't over.  This is the worst part, the beginning.  This is
when you have to face parts of yourself that aren't very pretty and realize
that you must change.  Then comes wanting to change and learning how to. It gets
easier as you learn about yourself and understand.

Everyone has problems.  The part that matters is what you do about it.
You're doing something about it, very constructive things, like getting
counseling and going to Parents Anonymous.

Getting started on changing is very hard.  There is so much emotion to deal with
and so much confusion.  But you're doing the right things, and it will get
easier as you work on this.

I suggest you attend the very next meeting of PA you can and talk about how you
feel.  The people there know how you feel, because they've been thru it.  They 
can and will help you get thru this very difficult time.

I wish you the best.

Pat

    
    RE: last several....
    
    Even if your case is closed with the DSS, if they ever get another
    report on you, Watch Out. In fact, I belive if the abuse is
    supported, you never get off the list.
    
    If fact, I advise anybody with dealings with the DSS to see an
    experienced lawyer just to get all the facts of your rights and
    what the DSS does behid the scenes. This is usually free, just don't
    tell the lawyer if you're broke :-).
    
    Spanking is considered abuse by the DSS and especially the DAs from the
    child abuse unit.  Even a swat on the butt. To be blunt, you are lucky
    the DSS didn't ask the police to arrest y. To hit a child with an
    an object could have been considered an assult.
    
    It is too bad that children don't come with a owner's manual so we
    could all raise them "correctly".
    
    If any one wishes to form a support group for people who have had
    dealing with the DSS, I'll be the first one to sign up.
    
    On the other hand, it is easy for parents to make mistakes. It is
    even easier to get frustrated and hurt a child emotionally or
    physically. All parents should take some sort of stress management or 
    attend a support group.
    
    It helps me to try and look at things from my kid's point of view.
    I talk to them a lot.
    
    Guy
    

A spanking is not abuse.  I don't where the DSS gets this rubbish.  Maybe
this is part of the problem in families.  Maybe we need a little more
discipline, and less DSS crap.

Just thinking out loud.

Ed..

    
    I beg to differ but *some* spankings are abusive and I think that if
    someone were being reported because the child specifically stated that
    my mother spanked and hurt me, that the prudent thing would be to
    *suspect* abuse until it was investigated. (Isn't it always better to
    side with the child at least initially?) Using an instrument to spank
    with (my mother used a fly-swatter) tips that 'ol spanking right into
    the abuse/assault category that the previous noter mentioned.
    
    			Wendy

  I have been involved with the DSS indirectly as a parent aide.  If there is a
history of physical abuse, a parent is not supposed to use physical discipline at
all.  I think part of this is that DSS wants the parent to learn non-physical
methods of discipline (and usually once DSS is involved you are hooked up with
parenting classes, parent support classes, therapists, etc).  Also, there is the
notion that if the parent has lost control before when disciplining their child,
they may do it again until they have learned new coping skills.  And a third 
consideration is that if a child has been physically abused (beaten, etc.) then 
non-abusive physical punishment may feel abusive to the child, who may also be 
in therapy at that point.  It seems like there are extreme cases on both sides
(parents who are investigated when there is not a problem, and kids who are 
killed by their parents, and no-one reported anything or there were reports with
no follow-up).  I am by no means an expert, but this is what I learned during
my one year of volunteering for an agency that provides services to parents 
involved with DSS.
	Linda

    I am a Chinese and I believe most of the Chinese think a child
    will and should be spanked at least once in his life.  My mom used
    a wooden stick to spank all her kids.  We seldom get spanked, but
    once we did, it really HURT.  I was a very stubborn child and
    often the only way to get to me was to give me a good spank.  My
    mom stopped spanking us when we started first grade.  But she
    did come up other punishments which were more effective than
    spanking for that age.  After reading the previous replies, I hope
    DSS really knows what they are doing.  Being a parent, the last
    thing I want is to be told that I am a child abuser but in fact
    I was just disciplining my kids in an effective way.
    
    Wendy  

    Any comments on children threatening to turn their parents in for abuse
    as a manipulative device?  Kids know that abuse is a hot emotional
    issue, and kids being kids try to turn things to their advantage at
    times.  As a hypothetical example:
    
    Kid and parent in dispute over discipline issue.  
    
    Parent: "YOU GO TO YOUR ROOM RIGHT NOW"!
    
    Kid: "NO I WON'T AND YOU CAN'T MAKE ME"! 
    
    Parent: "IF YOU DON'T GO THIS INSTANT I WILL HAUL YOU UP THERE MYSELF".
    
    Kid: "IF YOU DO I WILL TURN YOU IN FOR CHILD ABUSE, I KNOW YOUR NOT
         ALLOWED TO DO THAT!"
    
    Now what?  When does it become abuse?  Is dragging a 7 year old to
    their room child abuse?  If you let it go you can be sure there will
    be further discipline issues which the kid learned he could get away
    with by letting this issue go.
    
    I know, I know, take away TV or do some passive thing which doesn't
    require a physical confrontation.  The parent never should have told
    the kid to go to his room in the first place because it set up a
    situation where a physical confrontation could occur.  But, being human
    hindsite is cheap, a parent tends to use discipline methods which until
    we learn otherwise might work. 
    
    But my question still stands.... is dragging a screaming kid to his
    room abuse?
    
    Jeff
    

While the subject matter of this topic is clearly appropriate for this 
conference, we would like to keep it focused.  Thus, we request noters 
to stick to discussion of personal experience (direct and indirect), and 
refrain from digressing into hypotheses, conjectures, and rumors.

	-Neil Faiman, PARENTING co-moderator

    	I thought that the hypothetical situation posed in .45 was both
    timely and relevant and I was very interested in the PARENTING
    community's responses to the given situation.

    	In an atmosphere where an adult can be reported for spanking their
    child in public (say the grocery store) I think that it is important
    for us to figure out where to draw the lines and where our rights as
    parents to discipline begin and end.

    	Also, in an atmosphere where everyone is hypervigilant about child
    abuse, are you really expecting discussions about personal examples of
    abusing our children?

    	Again, I see no conflict with the hypothetical situation posed and
    the ongoing conversation regarding abuse.

    				Wendy
                                                   

>>While the subject matter of this topic is clearly appropriate for this 
>>conference, we would like to keep it focused.  Thus, we request noters 
>>to stick to discussion of personal experience (direct and indirect), and 
>>refrain from digressing into hypotheses, conjectures, and rumors.

But this is the heart of parenting and EXTREMELY difficult for someone to say
"yes, I spanked my child and now, am *I* a candidate for the dreaded DSS?"

I applaud Wendy for the courage to say what is normal in her culture and to say
how she deals with her children.  I live also outside my culture (fortunately in
one which I consider less interfering than the US culture) and have trouble 
dealing with certain aspects of discipline because of this.  For example, my
son is a thief (no bones about it).  He has stolen from me, he has stolen from 
stores.  If I were in the U.S. I would drag him with his stolen merchandise to
the store and make him own up.  If I do that here, he will end up with a 
permanent criminal record that will follow him the rest of his life.  I can't
do that.

I can agree with not digressing into rumors but hypothesis and conjectures
are probably the only way we are going to deal with a very great parental
concern (child abuse, discipline) without relating to very hard personal 
experiences (unless we want to end up with replies from Anonymous#1, Anonymous#2
etc. :-)

I think we will need a lot of tolerance and consideration to deal with this 
topic.

Cheryl

    As a parent, I share the previous noters' concerns.  In the
    NEW_HAMPSHIRE notes file (my home state) a noter recently reported
    his terrible experiences with DCYS, that state's agency.  It
    raised a lot of fears and questions in my mind.
    
    I also wear the moderator hat here, along with Neil and several other
    dedicated folks.  Several replies back, I sent a memo to the other
    moderators raising my concern that this discussion might degenerate
    into a fire with lots of heat but little light.  In response, Neil
    posted the earlier reply.
    
    We are not trying to artifically limit the discussion, nor shut it
    down.  We do want to prevent it from getting out of hand.  
    
    You may recall the long dispute in an earlier PARENTING about daycare
    versus keeping kids at home.  Several noters actively participated who
    never participated in other PARENTING discussions.  I don't even know
    if they have children themselves.  The discussion veered into a highly
    "religious" argument where actually there are not absolute rights and
    wrongs.  I, for one, was very hurt by the escalating tenor of arguments
    against daycare.  It brought up a lot of guilt for me.  I just don't 
    want to see that happen again to me, you, or PARENTING.
    
    This topic is pertinent, worthwhile, and very important to us.  Please
    bear in mind that there are few absolute rights and wrongs and lots of
    grey area in between.  Feel free to express your opinion but please
    respect others' opinions.  Recognize that this is a subject in which
    people don't readily change their ideas.
    
    Also, because we generally have only the newspaper or TV reports of
    specific situations, which usually lack depth and even lack
    objectivity, please think twice before speculating about cases in the
    news.
    
    Laura
    co-mod
    
    

    .46 Focused on what?  SPECIFIC cases of actual child abuse rather than
    conjecture?  As others have said you are unlikely to get people baring
    their souls in writing on a topic as hot as this. The instance I citied
    was hypothetical, but I bet any parent with a kid over five has faced a
    similiar situation.  There are gray areas, and I picked a scenerio
    which I thought WAS gray to help ME figure out the boundaries.
    
    I hope that the witch hunt (SOME of it appropriate) for child abusers
    does not go to the other extreme, and make parents AFRAID to discipline
    their children appropriately.  But sometimes it hard to figure out what
    IS appropriate... thus my question.  Our kids can wind up hurt by lack
    of discipline due to parential fear of being marked as a abuser.
    
    I do love my son enough to not back off on discipline too far because
    of that concern.  But I am very careful about avoiding physical
    confrontations.
    
    Jeff

    
    I have a nephew who has a "I don't give a d**m what type of discipline
    you give me, I will do what I want to do"....   My nephew is just now
    starting 2nd grade and his growing up has been very much a trial for
    his parents.  He defied every boundary his parents set up for him. They
    finally were at such a loss as to how to handle him that they went for
    individual and family counseling.  It turns out that a lot of his
    attitude came from an instance where he was somewhere with his parents
    and they walked out of the room for a few minutes.  He thought he'd
    been abandoned by this action and turned his anger out against his
    parents and decided that he wouldn't do anything they wanted.  He was
    starting fights and being mean in every way that he possibly could be.
    My sister-in-law once said to me that she could understand how parents
    could be driven to abusive actions.  The therapist suggested getting
    him involved with an activity that was just his own... not shared in
    any way with his older sister.  The therpist also said that he needed
    to understand what his boundaries were.  That when something was off
    limits, its off limits and under no circumstances vary from this idea.
    He also said to use a wooden spoon (yes a wooden spoon) as the
    disciplinary tool.   To give him the option once of doing what he is
    supposed to do or the consequences was to receive a spanking on his
    bare bottom with the wooden spoon.  This method has been somewhat
    successful in making my nephew understand and realize that there are
    boundaries although they do still have problems, because he just
    doesn't care.  Getting a spanking with the wooden spoon to him means
    it hurts for a little while, but then its over.  I think he feels its
    worth the risk of getting a spanking to be able to do what he wants to
    do.  I think my sister-in-law worries about the fact that if he doesn't
    care now and discipline means nothing to him, then what could happen as
    he grows older.  Will he go rob a bank and kill someone because he just
    doesn't care about the consequences?   Hopefully that will never happen
    and as he gets older he does beging to respect boundaries and
    discipline a little more.
    
    I feel that the DSS's attitude about spankings and discipline are
    ridiculous, because in some instances a child may not understand
    anything else, and in some instances it doesn't matter how much
    discipline and boundaries that a child is raised with, they still 
    could become our future rapists and murderers that seem to dominate
    the news today.
    

    
    Here are some facts:
    
    A friend's daughter threatened to tell her principal if her mother
    physically punished her. They kids may know that "telling" on their
    parents is a good weapon.
    
    This is one of the things I got in trouble for with the establishment.
    My wife and I babysat for her friend's two kids. The mother was in a
    motel room on a date but negelected to give us the last name of her date.
    
    Her youngest woke up, found his mother gone and began crying, refused
    to got back to bed etc....
    
    We tried calling the motel, but couldn't find the room number with the
    first name only. My wife tried everything to get the kid back to sleep.
    He started screaming. After about 2 hours (literally) he had a tantrum.
    He wanted his mother now and that was that. I gave him a swat on the
    butt, took him into the room and demanaded he go to sleep. Guess what?
    He stopped crying and was sleeping within 2 minutes.
    
    This issue came up during my adventure with the DSS and they implied
    that I was a violent man and should have continued to give the child
    compassion as my wife was doing.
    
    IMO, the only reason I didn't get in big trouble for this was because the
    mother admitted that she didn't give us the last name of her date,
    which was neglect on her part, plus she didn't want too many people
    to know that she spent the entire night in the motel (she was going thru 
    a divorce) with an engaged man that she had just met.
    
    Now, my own kids know that they are punished less than their friends,
    but they don't know the real reason why. We never spank them in anger,
    and give them plenty of warning before a spanking.
    
    Guy
    

    .51 points out the type of attitude which I think is MOST difficult to
    handle in a kid.... and that is when he/she simply doesn't CARE about
    the consequences of misbehavior, or considers the consequences
    ACCEPTABLE when measured against the gain of the misbehavior!  In
    this type of situation I too can understand how an adult can be driven
    beyond their limit to handle the situation appropriately.  Especially
    if it is an on-going situation and 'nothing' helps or works.  In
    a situation such as .51 described I certainly consider counseling 
    appropriate.  Nobody ever said parents had a monopoly on being perfect
    or correctly reacting to discipline problems.  As in much of life there
    is alot of trial and error.  Also, the DYS is comprised of humans too
    and they have no monopoly on error free performance either, especially
    when the information they have is second hand, out of context, or
    wrong.  I suppose some of the DYS people don't even HAVE any kids.
    
    Jeff

re: .52

>                                            We never spank them in anger,
>    and give them plenty of warning before a spanking.
   
   BINGO!   That, I believe, is the crux of the disconnect that many
   people see between what DSS does and what they do in their own lives.
   I don't have any first hand experience with DSS, but I would speculate
   that one major contributing factor to their opinion of spanking is
   this very issue.  I would speculate that what they are seeing is
   people who, for whatever reason, do spank out of anger, and so to
   avoid this very volatile activity, they tend to look down on all
   spanking, regardless of the situation.   Right or wrong, they are
   probably reacting to a situation where they have seen too much of the
   "wrong-type" of spanking to ignore.
   
   I think its safe to say that all of us here are reasonable,
   intelligent, relatively thoughtful people, neither prone to violence
   nor uncontrolled emotional outbursts.  But I have serious doubts that
   looking at the emotional profile of people in this conference would
   give is an accurate view of society.  While there are reasonable
   people being intimidated by thoughts of a DSS investigation, I suspect
   that their (DSS) intent was not that, but to save those children who
   really need it.  Its unfortunate that good people are being hurt by a
   system that is overstressed and understaffed, because it probably had
   good intentions when it was initiated.
   
   Wow, did I write that... egads.. this from someone who would rather
   see much, much, MUCH less government involvement in regular peoples'
   everyday lives and who doesn't have any better personal opinion of DSS
   than many other people.
   
   Peace,
   
   - Tom

    Still getting caught up on all the older notes, but just needed to
    reply to this one.
    
    My Humble opinion of a child who can threaten a parent with "I'm gonna
    tell on you", and then gets away with it has the parent(s) under
    control, not vice versa.  I think my reaction to this would be, "go
    right ahead, but you had better be able to *prove* this acusation in a
    way that leaves no doubt in anyone's mind". period!  It might also help
    to explain the ramifications of these accusations, (I assume that if
    the child is old enough to threaten, then his is old enough to be
    rational) That if the DYS or whatever agency investigates this, finds
    the parent(s) at fault then it is likely the child will be removed from
    the home at least temporarily to some sort of foster care.  Does he
    want to live in that situation?  
    
    We have been through a parent training series for hyperactive children. 
    These classes teach that *physical* restraining is OK, accepted and
    condoned.  We were advised a one point to put a lock on his bedroom
    door to keep him in after bedtime.  We were also advised that if the
    child won't stay in a timeout chair that we should first try to
    physically restrain the child by wrapping our arms around the child in
    a criss-cross way, then if this is not working use a physical restraint
    such as a belt.  Yes it sound cruel and extreme, NO we haven't used
    these methods, but when a child is out of control as this one might
    appear to be, extreme methods are in order.  Back to the original
    question, I don't see it as abusive to physically carry a child to his
    room.  FWIW, a good swat on the butt probably wouldn't hurt either!
    (we've done it a few time ourselves, we admit humbly)  If spanking is
    illegal, then check all the other silly laws on the books like the ones
    that make sex on Sunday in MA illegal, and anything but the"missionary"
    position illegal.  How may of us have broken *those* laws?
    
    Lyn