Conference moira::parenting

    
    I've never had to deal with this personally, but a friend of mine's
    sister committed suicide, leaving behind 2 small children.  I think
    they were 2 and 5 at the time.  Years later both kids still blamed
    themselves, so I'd be REAL cautious that you don't say anything to lead
    her to believe that she (or anyone else) could possibly be responsible
    for what happened to them.
    
    My best guess would be to explain that he was sick.  And this sickness
    made him feel very, very, very sad ALL the time.  And he didn't tell
    anyone about it, so no one knew he was sick, so they couldn't take him
    to the Drs so he could get better and feel happy again.  And HE didn't
    know that if he went to the Dr the Dr could make him feel better.  And
    he felt like no one loved him or cared about him, and he didn't feel
    important at all to anyone.  
    
    Explain that this sickness (depression, if she asks for its name) can
    make people do things that don't make ANY sense at all.  Sometimes it
    can make a really bad idea seem like a good idea.  Explain that this
    sickness makes your heart hurt a LOT (perhaps she's lost something she
    cares a lot about or had a pet die that she can relate to), and it
    hurts SO much for SO long, that he got tired of hurting.  And instead
    of talking to people about it, and instead of going to the Dr to feel
    better, he was so confused and in so much pain that he just wanted to
    STOP the hurt, and the ONLY way that he knew how to do that, was to not
    live anymore.
    
    I would try to DE-emphasize how he killed himself, and the act itself,
    and concentrate more on what drove him there in the first place.  And
    make sure that SHE understands that there ARE options.  Depression has
    been very misunderstood over the years, and people tend to blame the
    person who committed the suicide.  It is, instead, an actual illness
    which can be treated with therapy and drugs.
    
    Personally there have been several times in my own life where I have
    hit rock-bottom, and understand all too well what would drive someone
    to commit suicide.  And for the survivors who are angry that the person
    who died didn't ask for help - in their way they did.  But even help
    seems pretty hopeless, and needing to ASK for help can sometimes only
    exasperate the whole thing.  The pain is all-consuming, and all that
    matters is STOPPING the pain.  So many kids/teens commit suicide
    because they just don't KNOW that there are alternatives and help or
    treatment available.  
    
    If this approach doesn't feel comfortable to you, try checking with
    EAP, and see what they offer/suggest for child-counseling.  I'm sure
    that there are PLENTY of counselors who are used to covering this
    subject with children.
    
    Just try to remember - it IS an illness, and left untreated, can be a
    fatal illness, just the same as pnuemonia.  Just because it affects
    emotions more than the physical body, doesn't make it any less real.
    Maybe you can skip the "suicide" part all together and just explain
    that he was very sick, and didn't go to the Dr to get better, and he
    got so sick that he eventually died from it.  It's still the truth.
     

    Patty, .1 was beautiful.  Thank you!
    
    I agree with Patty, I would not focus so much on HOW he died, but
    on WHY he died.  Keep it simple and age-appropriate ("He was very,
    very sick, but he never went to the doctor, so he just kept getting
    sicck until he died.").  You may want to ask your pedi for help, too.
    
    There are a lot of books that explain death in general, but I don't
    think anyone has dealt with suicide.
    
    I applaud you for wanting to share this with your daughter.  Talking
    about it honestly can be one of those things that will bring you closer
    as a family.
    
    Peace,
    Kate

    Thank you, Patty.  Your note is both complete yet also succinct at
    covering the topic.  I hope you don't mind if I print it out to take it
    home to share it with my wife.
    
    Thank you also, Kate, and everyone who has sent me mail.  All your
    thoughts have been helpful and appreciated.
    
    bruce

    A friend of my husbands committed suicide last year.  Although we never
    told me daughter about it, she obviously overheard.  (She never knew
    my husband's friend).
    
    When day Alyssa asked what suicide meant.  So we told her basically
    what .1 said.  But we also added, "That's why it's very very important
    to try to talk to someone when you are feeling mad or sad.  It helps
    you feel better after you do.  That's why mommy and daddy talk to each
    other all the time.  And that's why we want you to tell us if something
    is making you sad, so that we can talk about it and it will make you
    feel all better."
    
    Of course it goes alot deeper than that and it's not always easy
    talking to people about your problems, but we wanted Alyssa to know
    that talking to us is good and keeping it inside will make you feel
    bad.  I don't want her to start keeping all her emotions inside.
    
    So we told her the truth, but not the whole truth and certainly not all
    of it.  A 6 year old can only handle so much data at one time.
    
    This topic is kind of like the topic of "Mommy, did God put Krystin in
    your belly?"  It's kind of hard to explain, but you want them to know
    the truth, just not all of it at once.
    
    Best of luck.  And let us know how you're doing.
    
    Gail

OK, an update, too...

This specific topic did not come up over the weekend, but we did take
an opportunity to reinforce the notion that it's OK to talk about her
feelings (the particular example dealt with anger).  Eventually, we 
talked about other feelings, too, like sadness.  Ericka (our daughter)
asked "is it OK to cry in front of others", to which we said
"yes".  So then she asked, "why doesn't Daddy ever cry".  So I swallowed
hard, and replied, "because it wasn't OK for me to cry when I was growing
up, and it's hard to learn how to do it after so many years.  But it will
be OK when I learn how."

bruce

    This is another good opportunity to point out other, healthy ways
    of dealing with emotions like sadness, anger, etc.  My husband (like
    most men of our generation :-)) doesn't cry, but if he's steamed up
    about something, he'll go for a walk, clean out the shop, straighten up
    his truck, etc., etc.  Yes, I'd prefer that he talk things out, but
    some people aren't good at that.  They need "alone time" to sort
    through their feelings.  I think this is OK, too, as long as it isn't
    used to avoid things.

    Bruce,
    
    Just wondering how you've done with your daughter, and if the subject
    on your wife's mother and brother's deaths has come up again?
    
    I hope that what I wrote helped your daughter (and perhaps your wife)
    in dealing with their death.  Sorry I didn't write again sooner - I'm
    out on maternity leave.
    
    Good luck, and I hope you all find peace in dealing with this.
    
    Patty

Patty,

what you had written was very helpful.

However, now that we're reasonably prepared, the topic hasn't come
up, not even with some prompting!  So it seems we have been granted
a short respite; I'm sure the topic will surface again...

thanks for your concern and your contribution.

/bruce

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Clay Satow
co-moderator

***********

I got a call Saturday night.   Bad News.   My niece was found dead in her
apartment Saturday morning. She was only 24.  She didn't pick up her 2-1/2
year old daughter at daycare Friday and her father was called to come get
her.  They tried to call her several times and went by the apartment.  They
called the police, but police couldn't do anything because she had not been
missing long enough.  They kept calling and calling, no answer.  Saturday
morning, they called the police again and said that there was no answer, but
her car was in the apartment parking lot.  The police met them at the
apartment and broke in.  They found her dead on her bed.   My niece lived in
Delaware, her mother and husband in Maryland, and her father in S.C.  Since
I live in Mass., I'm only getting miscellaneous bits and pieces, but my
sister (my nieces mother) is pretty resolved that it was suicide.  There was
a note.  She had evidently been having an affair with a married man, who had
told her that they needed to cool it. She wanted her daughters father to
take her baby and to everyone else, goodbye. She lay down on her bed, pulled
the covers up, put the gun to her heart and shot herself.  The family is
devastated, because it was so unexpected. (Nothing like this ever is) My
brother had just talked with her last Monday and had made arrangements to
come visit, and he said that when he talked with her that she did not sound
depressed or in extreme despair or that she had any troubles. There are a
lot of people in my family who are absolutely certain that she would have
never done this to herself and that she was murdered.  But the evidence
points to suicide.

I don't know why I'm writing this. I guess I'm just feeling really depressed
and I really feel bad for my great-niece.  I just can't see how my niece
could do this to her daughter, but its not up to me to make any judgements. 
What really makes it worse is the fact that my niece didn't have any
insurance so her father is paying for the burial in S.C.  I really feel that
this is so wrong.....   I feel that she should be buried where the babies
father lives in Delaware for my great-nieces sake, so that when she asks
"Where's my Mommy?", they can show her where her mommy is buried.  A 2-1/2
year old is never going to understand why her mommy is no longer around and
why she left.   Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel that if her Mommy was buried
where she can be taken to see the grave, that this is a lot more concrete
than just saying she died and won't be coming back.  I guess I'm looking for
some opinions on this not because it will change anything, just because I
don't know if I'm thinking clearly.   Am I totally out to lunch with this
thought?  I am still in shock and can't quite believe that this is
happening. It was just so unexpected.

Thanks for listening.

    No, you are not out to lunch on this, but I do think you are
    concentrating on one aspect of this horrible situation in order to get
    through it. Suicide is a terrible, terrible situation.

    	Where you are buried (if you choose to be buried) is of no real
    consequence. People, move, times change. I remember being dragged to my
    father's grave when I was very young and to be perfectly honest, it did
    not mean a thing to me (he died when I was 6 mos old). In fact, I
    resented the time intrusion from my other activities. His grave is in
    Connecticut and it has long, long gone without visitors.
    
    	In hind site (which admittedly is always 20/20) I woul dhave
    benefited *more* by people telling me about my father rather than
    visiting a cold, grey rock. (which is *not* my father).

    	If your concern is to keep  your niece's spirit alive for her
    daughter there are things you can do, gather what pictures you have of
    her and put them in a scapbook for her. Write down your thoughts for
    this woman and include it in the book, set aside pictures, postcards,
    letters, gifts that you may have received from this woman to pass onto
    her child. Tell the child what a special person her mother was and how
    she contributed to the goodness of life (she did afterall help to
    create a beautiful new life). Offer support to the little girl, tell
    her that her mother's love did not die.

    	A person's spirit and love are kept alive not by the site in which
    they rest but rather by the way they are remembered.
    	
    				Wendy      

     I think Wendy makes some good points.  As for the location of a
gravesite, this issue may not be that much different than death of a parent
by any means, not only suicide.  A gravesite as a representation of the
person is a major abstraction in itself.  It may be better, if beliefs
allow, to say that mommy's in heaven and let the understanding of physical
vs. spiritual concepts come later.  Then, visiting her mother's grave may be
a positive experience -- and as Wendy says, who knows where she will be
living then.  
     For CERTAIN, though, the girl should get some opportunity to say
goodbye; at that age, some thought would have to be given as to whether or
not that should be "in person" (i.e. see the body) or not.
     Death, by any means, of a child is especially tragic for the parents. 
As a parent, I EXPECT to predecease my children; I'm sure I'm not the only
one whose darkest fear is for one of my children to die before me, and
before they are grown.  24 is young enough that your niece was probably
still a child in the eyes of her parents.  So some thought needs to go to
them also.  Having a gravesite to remember their daughter by may be more
meaningful to then than to your niece's daughter.
     If you haven't already, I also suggest that you reread .1 of this note. 
It is very profound.

Clay

    First, let me say that it is heartbreaking to hear of you loss, and
    your families loss.

    At 2 1/2 this probably won't do you grand-neice much good, but a little
    girl in my parish who is now 9 had an uncle who committed suicide when
    she was 7.  She has written a book about how she felt and feels about
    it.  It is written in her own hand - ie. it is not typeset.  She
    printed each page.  It was published her in NH.  If you would like more 
    information I can get it.

This note is entered anonymously by the author of 588.9

Clay Satow
co-moderator

--------------

Well, this has been the most heartbreaking week I have ever spent.  My nieces
daughter was told about her mothers death, the day of the funeral.  In some
instances, I think she understood, but she didn't really want to hear what 
was being said to her.  Her grandmother and step-grandfather (my sister and 
her husband) took her to the florist and had her pick out flowers for her 
mother.  The bundle of flowers was then placed on her mothers chest.  They 
did not let her see her mother in the funeral home, but they did have her 
there (at the funeral home and at the cemetary) so that the family could see 
her and be with her.   I guess the idea of doing it this way, was so that at 
a later date in time, she can be told that she did have some involvement with 
the funeral, even though she didn't actually see or participate.

Later after the funeral, I was reading and drawing pictures for her and she
says: "Draw me a happy face."  So I did.   She then said "Draw me a sad face
like Alyssa".  This really broke my heart when she said this. Her father,
grandparents are trying to get her to talk about what she understands when
there is any indication that she is talking about her mother.   She actually
told her step-grandfather that "my mommy died".  Other than this, I do not 
know what more they can do.

There was a sympathy card that was sent to my father and it was eventually
decided by my sister that she wanted to place this card in the casket with my
niece.   I thought I'd type the poem in because it really meant a lot to me.

           A rose once grew where all could see,
            sheltered beside a garden wall,
           And, as the days passed swiftly by,
            it spread it branches, straight and tall.

           One day, a beam of light shone through,
            a crevice that had opened wide,
           The rose bent gently toward its warmth,
            then passed beyond to the other side.

           Now, you who deeply feel its loss,
            be comforted- the rose blooms here,
          Its beauty even greater now,
            nurtured by God's own loving care.

>Later after the funeral, I was reading and drawing pictures for her and she
>says: "Draw me a happy face."  So I did.   She then said "Draw me a sad face
>like Alyssa".  This really broke my heart when she said this.

While it may have broken your heart, the fact that she is finding a way to 
talk about how she feels, and the fact that you helped her do it are both 
very positive.

Clay