Conference moira::parenting

    We've always had music in this house, so the boys were exposed when
    they were still in utero...  My middle son has always loved music.
    When he was a toddler, he sang *constantly*.  When he was 6 1/2 he asked
    me to teach him a song on the piano.  He'll be 8 in January and can
    play 10 different songs.  He's really quite good.
    
    So I guess my answer is...  NOW.  A good Christmas present would be 
    a Fisher Price (or other) tape player and some tapes.  I got my sons
    different tapes (children's songs and Christmas carols) and they 
    played them all the time.  And the tape recorder was sturdy enough
    to live through all he use (and abuse).  :-)

    
    Michael recieved a "Disney" tape recorder for his birthday from my Mom,
    and we've been REAL happy with it. It has a "parent lock" on it so
    that you can preset the volume, etc...  The child can turn it on and
    off, but cannot pull the tapes out, FF, or anything else. The lock on
    it actually isn't childPROOF, but it takes 2 hands and some figuring
    to get it undone (and unless you SHOW them, it may take awhile before 
    they figure it out).
    
    Chris
    

    We gave Daniela a baby grand piano, ordered from a catalogue, for
    Christmas last year, at 2 years 3 months.  She also got a real guitar,
    but a child's version and her grandparents gave her a ukulele.  She can
    strum, play, beat, whatever to her heart's content.  
    
    She also has been going since then to a weekly music class, called
    Kindermusik.  Parents and children do it together.  It teaches basics
    like the beat while you have fun.  It comes from work done by a man
    named Karl Orff.  I also was fortunate to borrow his music for children
    on records, put it on a tape.  She lived by this music, which is sung
    and done by children from the time she was about 18 months.  
    

I am very music oriented and I have encouraged this with various success in my
children.  The stuff you can do when they are little are music appreciation,
etc.  You must choose carefully how to introduced music instruments and at
what age depending on type of instrument.

My sister started playing a 1/4 size violin at 4 years old.  My aunt who was
teaching her would only let her touch the instrument for 15 minutes a day.  She 
always came back for more.

If your child might need braces, it is probably better to avoid brass 
instruments.  It is very difficult and painful to try and play with braces.

It is best to wait until the front second teeth come in for teaching a child a
reed instrument like clarinet, saxophone, or oboe.  Otherwise they can not 
correctly form the emboucher.

Consider the difficulty in caring for an instrument for a young child.  Double
reed instruments like oboe or bassoon are expensive and delicate to look after.
Think also of the size of little hands and arms.  A child needs a rather long
arm to be able to reach 7th position on the slide trombone.  They need quite a
bit of strength in their fingers to be able to hold down the strings on a
string bass.

I found that it was difficult to get really serious about an instrument with my
children until they could read fairly well.  Thigs go much faster then and 
most music schools are geared towards students who can read.  You might find a 
special school where this doesn't hold true.

If your child seriously wants to play drums (I have a full kit in the basement 
:-) be aware that you will need a room which you can soundproof.  I have hung
the guest feather beds on the walls in that room :-)

There is an excellent book out called "Give Your Child Music".  Can't remember 
the author but I could look it up if anyone is interested.

Cheryl

     Keep it fun, and voluntary (or even restrict it, as Cheryl's aunt did). 
I cringe a bit when I see these musical prodigies who are playing the cello
at three.  I wonder if they are being pushed by parents who are convinced
that their offspring is the next Mozart, and if they will end up hating
music.
 
.4>If your child might need braces, it is probably better to avoid brass
.4>instruments.  It is very difficult and painful to try and play with
.4>braces.

     Cheryl, I think this is somewhat of a rathole for the base noter, since
I doubt that she will need to worry about this for many years, but I don't
agree.  I played the French horn for many years with a major metalmouth. 
There were a few times that it was a bit painful, when the braces had just 
been adjusted, or when something new was added, but normally I found that my 
mouth adjusted quite quickly.  And I never found it particularly difficult.
     My orthodontist recommended a brass instrument over a reed instrument
for my situation because one of the problems was that I had "buck teeth." 
The embouchure (for non music weenies, that's the position of the mouth and
lips on the mouthpiece of the instrument) of a brass instrument actually
assists the braces, since it pushes the front teeth back.  The embouchure of
a reed instrument tends to push the front teeth out, which actually fights
the braces.

re: reading

     The so-called "Suzuki" method (I know they do violin and piano -- I
don't know about other instruments) does not rely on reading.  Instead, the
child learns by ear, and by the position of fingers on the keyboard (I'm
familiar with piano, I assume it's similar for the violin).  I think it's an
advantage for young children, since they can concentrate on the sound rather
than reading the notes (which is like reading hieroglyphics when you haven't
learned English yet), and because the child is playing a recognizable song,
with both hands, very quickly.  That help to grab and keep their interest.

Clay

Clay,

The reason that I said that about the braces is that my nephew really got 
turned off trumpet due to his braces.  My point is only to consider it as
a factor.  Fortunately he later came back to music but now as a piano player :-)

Also, concerning reading.  As I said, I know there are less traditional 
teaching methods which don't require reading but it is important not to push
a child into a course which does require it when the child can't read yet.

As I said, my sister started playing violin at 4 and she couldn't read but 
then she had her own personal teacher living downstairs.

ccb

    Thanks for the input !  I conclude that preschool kids should
    experience the sounds of music (recorded AND live) for the purpose 
    of music appreciation/education.  Singing is also a great way to enjoy 
    music. 
    
    If someone really has musical talent that THEY want to develop, then
    the 4th - 6th grades are probably a good time to start formal training.
    
    I began my formal training (clarinet) in 5th grade ( I told my parents
    that I wanted to be in the band, they did not ask me) - it helped pay my 
    way through college and performing and listening continue to be a major 
    part of my life.  I just don't want my son to miss out on how music can 
    enrich one's life !
    
    By the way, the braces argument against certain instruments is not
    valid.  Remember all those braces wearers in junior/senior high
    schools.  They were found playing every instrument !  I wore them too.
    
    -Dave
    

    My daughter loves music now.  She will get marracas, a kiddie
    xylophone, and jingle bells for Chanukah this weekend.  (She is 2 years
    old.)
    
    I have a few qwestions:
    
    What tapes do your kids like, both video and audio?  We have 2 Wee
    Sings audiotapes that she loves to hear in the car.  She likes the 
    Sharey Lewis video.  Before I spend precious money, I'd like to know
    which tapes are most popular.  I'd also like to know which tapes you
    enjoy.  I don't want to get something that will drive me nuts.
    
    Do your toddlers like classical music?  I have a number of good CDs, and I
    play them when she asks for music.  But I'm not sure she enjoys it. 
    She doesn't respond much, as she does with her Wee Sings tapes.
    
    I want to encourage this at a suitable level for her enjoyment.
    
    Any other pointers?  She'll start in a wonderful daycare program next
    month (Applewood Learning Center in Londonderry, NH) and I hope the
    daily music and dance benefits her.
    
    Thanks,
    L

    We have found that Tom Paxton and Sesame St. tapes are ones that we can
    tolerate and the kids enjoy.  I don't think that finding out what's
    popular will necessarily help you much in finding out what your
    daughter likes.  Do you know that the Londonderry library has bazillions
    of cassettes (many with accompanying books) that you can check out?
    I'd recommend finding a way to "test run" tapes with your daughter before
    buying them, until you have a better idea of her taste in music.

					cheryl

    My nephews have always liked the Baby Songs video tapes.  They have
    real people in them instead of cartoons, which I think keeps their
    attention more.  The songs are cute and so far haven't driven any of
    the adults crazy yet.
    
                                               Tracy
    

    Even though my daughter is really too young to appreciate the
    collection of music we've started accumulating for her, we enjoy her
    Raffi cd's.    Our favorite is Singable Songs for the Very Young.
    
    Susan

    My daughter's daycare has a singer come in every two weeks.  He is from
    Mass and has some nice tapes.  He goes by Mr. Kevin, but his last name
    is Devine.
    
    He has a nice voice, the quality of the tapes are good, and of course,
    Gina acts like he is her very own since she sees him so often.  
    
    He does classics like "The Wheels on the Bus" (with a twist), and some of
    his own songs.  (Like "That's My Job, I'm a Kid.)
    
    We like the Disney for Children stuff, as does our daughter.
    
    judy

    My kids love the Disney songs.  They have two or three tapes and the
    kids love to bounce to the music and sing along (now that they are
    older).  We have the Wee Sing bible songs that they know.  My son also
    loves Amy Grant and knows the songs on one of her older albums better
    than I do.
    
    I think any kind of music that has a beat and makes them move is what
    they like the most especially at that age.  Toddlers love to bounce
    with the beat.
    
    -sandy
    

    RE:  -1
    
    Ilona liked the beat on Paul Simon's Graceland album!
    
    When will she ever like my Mozart and Beethoven? ;-)
    
    L

    Laura,
    Why not get Ilona a hebrew tape? I got "100 first songs" and holiday
    songs to a friend's dougter when she was 2,and even though I am quite
    sure she does not understand a WORD,she,now 5 years old-plays those
    tapes over and over,knows the music,and can even sing some songs (with
    the right words!)I know you can find them in Brookline at that big book
    store (forgot the name)
    Happy Chanukah,and merry Christmas to our nonjewish noters.
    Rivka
    

    
    My son also (at 5) has wide-ranging likes and dislikes, due to his
    father's diverse CD collection. His recent favorites are Sonic
    Youth (too sonic for me) and a collection of hokey Christmas songs
    by the Chipmunks, Spike Jones, Weird Al, etc. 
    
    Some musicians he loved as a toddler were Burl Ives, Pete Seeger,
    Peter Paul and Mary, and Sharon, Lois and Bram. I had good luck 
    borrowing tapes from the library to see what he liked, then buying 
    them.
    
    Lucy

Melissa really likes Kid Songs, Fantasia, the songs on "Teach Me German" and
the the "Lyric Language" series.  For some reason she really dislikes my
Klezmer Conservatory CDs.  Ah well, there's no accounting for taste  8^{).

Chanukah Sameach to some, Merry Christmas to others and a Happy New Year to all!
Dick

    I highly recommend the KidsSongs cassette/book series - note that these
    are not related at all to the video series with the same name.
    
    There are four cassettes in the series, each containing over 40 minutes
    of music, and each accompanied by an illustrated song book containing
    the words and music for every song on the tape.
    
    We found our copies at EMS stores in various places.  They are also in
    the catalog from Klutz Press.
    
    bruce

    
    Oh good, I can introduce you all to another great kid's "artist"... 
    Joe Scruggs!
    
    My favorite tapes are "Traffic Jams", Bahama Pajamas, and "The Best
    of".  The songs are as much fun for parents as for kids.
    
    	It was late one night in the nursery
    	It woke up the whole family
    	Little baby sister was supposed to be asleep
    	but she was playing her busy box, laying down a beat!
        [From "Busy Box Band"]
    
    He does remakes of popular songs, and uses great rythyms... You'll find
    yourself humming the songs all day. 
    
    In fact, Sophie (3) just got a tape for christmas, and err,.. umm... well, I
    stole it to listen in my car before she heard it!  And she loves it,
    too!                                
    
    Jamd

    Lately, in addition to having tapes and CDs of all kinds of music
    available, I have been doing a couple of other things to encourage
    Daniel's interest in music. 
    
    One is to keep a lot of kid-type musical instruments around of the
    "folk" variety (thumb piano, bongos, tambourine) and to encourage
    spontaneous jam sessions. Another is to try to sing a lot, which could
    be me singing to him, or asking him to sing to me or with me. We make
    up new words to familiar songs, sometimes topical, sometimes very
    silly. A twist on this is that we are going to record ourselves singing
    and then listen to the tape sometime soon. 
    
    In the future I hope to dust off my old recorder and play duets, if
    he's interested.
    
    Lucy

    My personal favorite children's artist is Linda Arnold.  We have 3 or 4
    of her tapes and they are lively, easy to listen to, as much fun for me
    as they are for my kids.  (sure can't say that for all kids' music,
    most of it grates on my nerves 2nd time around...)
    
                                           Joyce

    Just had to share, there's a fairly new tape/book combination out by
    one of the Guthrie's, Arlo maybe.  Its about daily things to teach
    children, like wash your face, brush your teeth, go to bed and so on.
    
    I have seen it at Barns and Noble in Auburn in the kids' book section
    with the tape/book combination.  I found it just a little "pricey"
    something like $21.
    
    Lyn

I couldn't find the original note, but sometime last week	\
a question was asked about an infant who liked music.  The
books I mentioned (I now have a name) are called "Play-A-Song"
or "Play-A-Sound" books.

An example of a Play-A-Song Book is: Silly Songs includes: Row, Row 
Row Your Boat, Pop goes the Weasel, Eensy Weensy Spider, etc...  This
is the one my daughter has and loves.  I thought an infant could still
enjoy the music and pictures but just would need more older help.

The catalog I have sells them for 9.95 each.  The catalog is called
The Great American Book Store and lists a toll-free number of 
1-800-223-4339.

Our 8-yr old son wants to learn to play the keyboard, 5 weeks back
it was the guitar. We enquired about music lessons, and they said
that it is best to own the instrument you want to play, since you
need to practice between lessons. The keyboards they showed us 
ranged in price from $200 to $900. Is this the standard price range
for reasonably good keyboards? I am a little hesitant about this
investment, since his interest seems to be shifting. He does have
a feel for music and can sing pretty well, so I was thinking that 
a guitar would serve nicely to strum while he sings.

Can someone give me an idea about keyboards, the features we should 
look for and the price. Is it possible to buy a used instrument? 
Any views on how to pick an instrument to learn?

Thanks,
-Pradnya

    
    Used instruments - yoy may try the wants ads weekly at the
    news stands, I have seen a lot of muscial instruments for sale
    listed in it.
    
    As far as owning the equipment is concerned, most music stores
    that offer lessons will let the student rent the instrument
    on a monthly basis. I don't know if the stores will rent to
    a non-student, you can ask around. 
    
    As far as which instrument is preferred, it very much depends
    on the type of music your son wants to play, classical or folk
    or pop/rock. For example, my daughter is not interested in classical, 
    so anything like violin is not suitable for her. She have tried 
    the keyboard, but she didn't care for it. So, she tried the guitar
    and so far she is sticking with it (1 1/2 year now). She also wanted 
    to learn the saxophone, through the school music program, but decided 
    that she didn't have time to practice both.   
    
    I don't know about keyboards, but as far as guitars are concerned,
    the full size acoustic guitars are too big for a 8 year old to wrap
    his arm around. So either you go for a smaller guitar or an electric
    guitar which is much thinner. An electric guitar is also much easier
    to play and learn on for a child, since the srings are not as stiff
    and you don't have to press down as hard, so you don't get callouses.
    Now, an electric guitar sounds like an acoustic one when not plugged
    in, thus stemmed the term "unplugged", so you have to worry about the
    noise level. A entry level new electric guitar goes for about $180, a 
    decent one goes for $400 and of course it gets much fancier from there.
    
    As far as lessons are concerned, we find that 1/2 hour to 1 hour a 
    week was all my daughter (now almost 11) can take. She has to practise 
    20 minutes a day, 5 days a week. She learns about the guitar, learns
    music theory, the chords and she gets to learn to play parts of her
    favorite songs. Her teacher transcribes the songs for her, she brings
    the CD's in and he turns that into music on paper. It seems to me that
    in order to really play, ie. play in a band, she will have to take
    lessons for a good 4 or 5 years.
    
    
    
    Eva
    

    
    OOp, typo in .26 
    I meant to say "so you *don't* have to worry about the
    noise level" when the guitar is not plugged into an amp.
    
    
    Eva

    
    That sounds like a LOT of money to me, for a good keyboard.  Keep in
    mind that it's a child, so a "smaller" (ie, not FULL size) keyboard is
    probably going to be easier to play on anyway, not to mention cheaper!
    We have a very small one (~15" long) and a larger one (mid-size,
    ~2-2 1/2 feet long), and they both sound about the same.  The really
    small one is a little difficult for me to get the fingering - but only
    because my hands are so much bigger than, say, my 10 year old.  I can
    play his (the mid-size one) just fine, and span more than I can on a
    traditional piano - this makes it much simpler/faster to be able to
    reach the full range of notes.  Chris does well on his keyboard, but
    the organ (full-size keyboard) that my mom has is too large for his
    small hands, and he can't reach a full scale. (till his hands grow
    anyway!).  I'd guess it was similar to learning to play the flute
    versus the piccalo - the keys/notes are all the same - just in a larger
    or smaller area.
    
    ANYWAY, Chris' keyboard is a Casio, has nice tone to it, and can
    replicate about 50 (maybe more) other sounds/instruments.  So, it's not
    "just music", it's a lot of fun too.  One of their friends has a full
    size keyboard, and has been taking lessons for years (she's 9), and she
    prefers Chris' mid-size ... for the same reason - her hands just FIT
    better.
    
    As for guitars .... we bought Chris a youth-size (they called it
    something like that) "regular" guitar.  I want to say it was about
    $140.00 at Daddy's Junky Music in Nashua.  I believe that Daddy's also
    sells some used equipment (though possibly only higher-end stuff), and
    they have a bulletin board with stuff that people have for
    private-sale.
    
    Guitar lessons, to me, seemed to be a LOT more expensive than any other
    instrument lessons.
    
    ....and Chris just told me last night, that he wants to learn to play
    either the slide-trombone or the tuba.  ...NOT till I get a bigger car,
    Chris!!  (-:
    
    In school I always played the flute, because lessons were at school,
    and whatever instrument we played we had to lug to and fro (I was a
    walker).  The flute was the smallest/lightest instrument at the time
    (-:  I took keyboard lessons from my sister and brother who had a
    "real" teacher.  I fiddled around a little on the guitar.  
    
    I own a flute, and there's guitars and keyboards available ... the
    keyboards have always had the strongest "pull" to me - though a guitar
    may have more appeal for it's portability, and popularity with other
    kids, at parties, with the "babes", etc (-:  These days, I never touch
    the flute ... )-: (but hey, I can still knock out one mean "Mary had a
    little lamb" if I have to! (-:)
    
    I'm not so sure that the instrument even matters THAT much, as getting
    them into music.  It's not hard to shift reading music from one
    instrument to another, though cords can be trickier - the basic facts
    and rules are all still the same, so once you learn ONE, the others are
    easier to pick up.  I wouldn't invest a lot in anything right now - and
    explain why "I want to be sure that this is the instrument that really
    suits you best, before we spend a lot of money on it" ... he should be
    able to understand that.  And maybe make a "date"  .... 'if in xx
    months, if you're still with it, and enjoying it, we can talk about
    getting that really COOL one!'
    
    Good luck!
    Patty
    
    p.s. - Be glad he's not Jason - who wants to learn how to play the
    cymbals! (not in THIS house, buddy (-;)

    re. youth guitar
    
    A few years back I bought my sister inlaw (then 9) a youth guitar for
    $60 new.  I considered it a disposable or learning guiter.  I am very
    glad I went with an inexpensive one since she used it for a couple of
    weeks and hasnt touched it in about 5 years.  I've seen new youth
    guitars for as little as $30 (probably need to be tuned every 5
    minutes) and pretty decent ones for $80 - $120.
    
    With most (if not all) instruments, you can buy a 'low end' model and
    then upgrade if you need.  Many stores will take tradeins.
    
    re. keyboards
    
    Same thing applies.  You can get an inexpensive learning one at some
    place like a Lechmere for $100 - $200.
    
    With any instrument, if the child has real taking to it you're most
    likely going to have to upgrade in a few years anyways (I went thru
    3 trumpets before getting the one I wanted...I've gone thru many
    guitars and am still looking for 'the one').
    
    Just my 2 cents...Rhonda