Conference moira::parenting

    Not sure what I'd do, but I sure feel for you. Yuk.
    Instead of getting other kids in this year's class involved, any
    way you could talk to kids or parents from previous year's classes?
    They might be more forthcoming....
    
    sue
    

    These are VERY difficult issues.  You have to work through
    the principal, and if you do not get satisfaction, escalate
    it to the Superintendent.

    The best recourse is to 'sit in' on the class as often as possible.
    If you can do it, find other parents of students in the class
    who will also 'visit'.  She cant deny you visitation.

    We had a teacher who was very inapproprate (in a different way),
    and for almost a whole year, the parents had an adult in the class
    almost all day.  The guy quit after that year.

    The principal needs to document this stuff extensively for many years
    before termination can be considered (not that different from Digital).
    Most principal's dont hold their job long enough to create the paperwork
    for termination.

    Are you friends with the parents of other kids in the class?  I suggest
    you talk to them and see if their kids feel the same way.  Get
    each parent into the principal's office and make him/her face the
    situation.  you have to make it more uncomfortable to face you than the
    teacher.

    It will take work on your part.  But if you can do it, you will be
    helping the other kids in your town for many years to come.

    Do you know parents of kids that she had last year?  Find out if
    there were parents in the principal's office last year.  The MOST
    important thing is that this stuff is being written down in the teachers
    records.  You may have to get help from the Super to hold the principal's
    feet to the fire to do the hard job.
    good luck!
    bob

    If I were in this situation, I would be all over that teacher --
    setting up teacher conferences, sending in notes, etc.  If I didn't
    feel that progress was being made -- or if my child suffered some
    kind of retaliation because of my attentions -- then I would demand
    a different teacher.  I would also document as much as I could, copying
    the principal initially, then also copying the superintendent.
    
    You can be sure that this problem did not crop up overnight and that
    there are other parents who have experienced the same thing.
    
    Are you in MA?  If so, then you have a school council where you can
    bring up your concerns.  Also, suggest you contact the president of
    the PTA who may have other suggestions.
    
    I feel for you and your son.  This is a tough situation.  You will need
    to keep the lines of communication with your son open as wide as
    possible.  This kind of a teacher can be a tremendous drain on
    self-esteem and confidence.  
    
    Good luck to you, 
    Diana

Well .... maybe I'm paranoid, but I feel like I'm being lied to all over.
The principal is new this year, though he was vice principal last year.  The 
principal last year was only there for 1 school year and a few mos the end of 
the year before.  The "long time" principal is long-gone, so for the past 2-3 
years, I'm sure there's no real "record" of anything.

They tell me that she's never had a problem - and then they tell me that 
they're working through things.
She says she doesn't have any trouble controlling her temper, yet she's had to 
train herself to lock her hands behind her back and back up when a kid makes 
her mad.  At least it shows a propensity towards violence.  She couldn't look 
us in the eye about a single thing.  

Chris and Adam can be accused of a lot of boy/child-type things, but neither 
one of them is out to screw someone over, as she implies.  *I* wanted to smack 
her!  And it's certainly not to imply that the kids don't hear foul language 
elsewhere - they certainly do (guilty), but this is in the classroom, and in 
my mind, is simply NOT appropriate, nor necessary.  Can't chew gum, but swear 
and scream and smack 'em around all you want .... 

I spoke with the principal this afternoon - when we left it Friday, he had 
initially suggested the guidance counselor wait a few days to talk to the 
kids.  The guidance counselor thought it would be MUCH better if he went right 
in Monday and tried to get this all cleared up, and that's what was agreed on.
In speaking to the principal today, it's obvious that his opinions won out, 
and he instructed guidance NOT to speak to the kids for at least a few days.

Seems to me that they want a chance for the kids to start to forget, give the 
teacher a chance to be "on best behavior" for a few days, talk to the kids 
"Nope, nothing happened this week", *poof* problem disappears.

THIS is part of why I want to talk to Kenny's parents - I would think they'd 
be upset enough to raise some dust.  Right now it's a single mom w/ 3 kids 
going off half-cocked, and I think they just want me to shut up.  I guess they 
don't know that I won't easily be brushed under the rug.

As for the rest of the kids, and last year's kids, it's a place to look.  This 
school makes it a little tougher - it's Ledge Street in Nashua, which is for 
the most part the "downtown school".  Most of these kids probably see worse 
than this every night when they go home, so I wouldn't be surprised if some of 
them never think that it's inappropriate.  It's a real tough group of kids, 
that have always struck me as DYING to be loved.  That'd be the hard way to 
teach them.  The easy way is to beat them into submission - at least this 
they're somewhat used to.  

So, assuming that I get several other kids/parents in the class to come forth, 
and they still continue to ignore it (fully what I expect to happen), when do 
you decide to take it further??  I have 2 kids in this school, and I don't 
want to make life bad for either of them.

The whole entire issue has only been around this teacher - other than her, 
we've been pretty happy with the school, and how well Chris and Jason have 
done (in general).  They're usually very concerned and attentive.  I truly 
feel that this is just the case of 1 bad apple, and don't want it to spoil 
"the bunch".  

A year's a LONG time to wait out a teacher .... and 5th is a pretty important 
grade to have to struggle with this stuff as well as the academics.

The more time that passes, the more riled I get ....

Thanks again!
Patty

I would switch teachers.  I doubt your son will learn much if he is scared about
school.  Even in the best case, if the teacher calms down it could take a long
time for your son's fear to go away and for him to trust the teacher.  In the
worst case, your kid could hate school for a long time.

Also, it is probably a lot easier to get the principal to move your son than
to get rid of the teacher.

It sounds like a scene from the book 'Matilda'.

Harold

    In our school the rule is first you talk with the teacher
    and try to reach a resolution.  If you cant, then you talk
    with the principal.  If that doesnt' work out then talk
    with the Superintendent.

    As much as I'm opposed to School Choice and alternative schools,
    in Mass you do have the option of pulling your child and finding a 
    different placement (sometimes you have this choice).  You AT LEAST
    have this threat.  Where we live the 'Charter Schools' get to charge
    pretty much whatever they want (and the local school has to pay).
    Its incredibly unfair....but it makes a good threat.  It may get
    the principal's attention.

    If you want to fight this teacher you have to be a REAL
    pain in the butt.  You cant just expect the system to do it for
    you.  I suspect this first year principal has never dealt with this
    stuff before, so dont wait too long to escalate it to the Super.

    The best thing is to keep that line of parents in the teachers
    room and at the principal's office.
    good luck
    bob

I think you should talk to Kenny's parents.  They need
to help their child deal with this.  Don't tell them what
happened, just that your child reported an incident between
Kenny and the teacher, and they should see what he has
to say about it.

I would also ask them to call you back and let you know
what they found out, because you're trying to decide what,
if anything, you want to do about it.  They may get
info that will corroborate your kid's story.


While I understand having a best friend in
class, I would lean very strongly towards moving my child.
Violence, whether experienced or observed, is totally
inappropriate in the classroom (and other places), especially 
when it is the teacher.  Your child may be the one to make the 
decision; he may decide to try and ride it out for the sake of his
friendship.  But, then you'll have to be constantly reminding him 
that *the teacher* has the problem, except when he really did
misbehave, while somehow not undermining his respect for her.  
(Respect as another human, not as an adult or authority figure).

Good luck.

    My son had an "Old Yeller" last year, and I just kept on the teacher's
    case about it.  While the teacher didn't yell at my kid directly, she
    created a very tense atmosphere that made 2nd grade a lot harder than
    it needed to be.  
    
    It sounds like you're not getting any satisfaction from the teacher or
    the principal.  I'd stay on their case anyway.  Also try contacting the
    parents of the kids who had this teacher last year, and see what's
    going on -- is this new behavior for this teacher, standard operating
    procedure, or has she gotten worse over time?  She may be suffering
    from depression, burnout, etc.  So try to get some "history."
    
    I would also enlist the aid of your local school committee member. 
    Each ward in our city sends an elected representative to the city
    school committee, and there is also an at-large member.  If you have
    this setup in Nashua, I would talk to your school committee rep.  There
    may have been other complaints about this teacher.  
    
    In any event, I would also contact a lawyer who specializes in
    education and teacher/student issues and find out what your rights are. 
    Personally, I think the teacher is WAY out of bounds.  Nobody deserves
    to be treated like that.  I went to the nuns and believe me, I know
    what I'm talking about.
    
    Good luck, we're pulling for you!  Keep us posted!
    
    Kate 

    When you are the principal and you have a teacher that is
    not performing as you would like, it is incredibly easier
    for you to get the teacher to change when you have unhappy
    parents.  When no one or few parents complain, it is easy
    for the teacher to feel they are doing just great.

    Get in the teacher's face.  Create a line at the principal's
    office.  Your support for change will make it a lot easier
    for the principal to demand change
    bob

    
    You mentioned that there was an aid or another adult in the room.
    I would talk to these people and see how they describe this
    teacher's behavior.  
    
    I don't know if its legal or not, but I would even consider having
    your child tape record the class, if you can't get any other adults
    to speak about what is going on.
    
    Sue

Chris spoke with the guidance counselor yesterday, who then called me later.
Chris told him essentially the same things that he had told us, but also said
that "There were problems, but then my parents came in and talked to the 
principal, and now she's been much better!".  So, I feel like this sort of 
stifles me from doing much more.  

Should I just wait until she freaks out again, and then proceed, double 
barrel?  
Hope that this was a "one-week thing", and she's over it now?

... my gut still says that she got "caught", and is on her best behavior for a 
while, and will "slip" again later.  I suppose if it's a matter of being in 
there once a month or so, it'd be bareable, as long as we informed as SOON as 
things started getting bad again (Chris is sure to pipe up).

The guidance counselor is going to talk to the kid that she "smacked" - 
hopefully through those means, his parents will find out.

... and an interesting tidbit ... Chris 'fessed that when he and this other 
kid sleep over, they sneak out in the middle of the night and ride bikes ...
Sigh.  I know - harmless enough, but still something to fret over .... I just
hope they know enough, that if one of them gets hurt, they're not afraid to 
get help! 

ILoveMyLifeILoveMyLifeILoveMyLifeILoveMyLifeILoveMyLife ...keep saying that...

... this isn't working (-;

Thanks!
.Patty

    Patty,
    
    I would most definitely pursue this situation, although I'd try and
    enlist the help of all the parents in the class to first help you gather
    information (you'll need all the facts before you proceed, and those
    facts should include info on the teacher's behavior in past years too),
    then help you determine how to proceed (for example, reprimand or
    removal from the classroom). Although you've made a good start by
    talking to Chris and his friend (and soon Kenny), a unified voice that
    includes all or most of the parents would be more effective than you
    alone or with a few other parents.
    
    Once you've gathered all the facts and determined which way to proceed
    (hopefully as a large group), you should present your case to the
    principal with the caveat that you will expect him to take action
    within a certain time period. If he fails to act within that time
    period or doesn't do what you expect of him, then move up the chain to
    the superintendent. If that fails, then bring in the school committee.
    
    I'm speaking from experience here because my husband and I had to
    literally sit on the superintendent to resolve our son's school
    situation after our efforts to work with the principal of our
    neighborhood school and other school department administrators failed.
    The principal at our neighborhood school sounds very much like the one at
    your son's school, although this is his 7th year while your son's
    principal is just starting out (one reason why he may appear as though he
    doesn't want to rock the boat -- there's no excuse for the principal that
    we dealt with to act the way that he did, given that it was his 6th
    year -- contact me directly if you want all the gory details).
    
    I know how difficult it is emotionally and physically to deal with
    student/teacher issues -- especially given your single-parent status --
    but believe me, it's worth the fight. This year our son is in the right
    school with the right principal, teachers, and programs for *him.* As
    painful as the process was for us, it was the right thing to do for 
    him (and that's not easy for me to say, given that our older daughter
    is still at the neighborhood school with that principal -- that's her
    choice). If deep down you feel that this matter needs to be examined
    further -- and if it turns out that you and other parents need to take
    action -- then you should move forward.
    
    Best of luck -- I'll be there in spirit!
    
    Nancy-

>    Once you've gathered all the facts and determined which way to proceed
>    (hopefully as a large group), you should present your case to the
>    principal with the caveat that you will expect him to take action
>    within a certain time period. If he fails to act within that time
>    period or doesn't do what you expect of him, then move up the chain to
>    the superintendent. If that fails, then bring in the school committee.

    This implies that your group may decide that the teacher
    should be fired, and you should be able to just tell this to
    the principal and get what you want.

    Patty, sounds to me like you have accomplished 90% of your
    goal.....things are a lot better in the class.  Congratulations.
    Perhaps the teacher will slip again and show her true colors.  I
    hope you and the other parents will be ready to jump right on her
    again.

    The principal will most likely NOT discuss with you the specifics
    of any plan that he is working on with the teacher.  I'm amazed he
    said 'we are working on that'.  This is a breach of confidentiality.

    If you can get several kids to testify that this teacher is hitting
    kids, you can get her fired.  Even then it would be difficult.

    Congratulations on the progress you've made so far!
    bob

I guess this is where I'm starting to waffle ....

Should I just leave things be for now, because things are a lot better, but be 
ready to jump if anything happens

		OR

Should I continue to persue things, going with the gut feel that it's just a 
matter of time before things start happening again

I don't want to totally drop it, but on the other hand, I don't want to persue 
it to the point of getting everyone really riled up, if in fact things ARE 
better.  

It was suggested to me to write a letter to the school about the incidents 
that occurred, and that that would have to be filed in her "jacket".  I 
suppose if it were worded in such a way like "Thanks for addressing  this and 
this and this" the events would be documented, but might not come over as 
threatening as "THIS is what happened, keep it on file!".  I also don't want 
to mistakenly convey that I think that everything is hunky-dory now.

I'm concerned that if I drop it now because things are better, if/when it 
re-occurs, there's nothing that shows it ever happened before, and the 2nd (or 
200th) time, will be treated as "the first time".

IF something bizarre happened, and it's a one-time incident, and I write a 
letter or document it somehow, then if it never happens again, my letter on 
file should make no difference - Right??  If I don't document it somehow, and
something else happens, we're back to square one, add regret for not doing
something "before". 

According to Chris last night, she started screaming again yesterday - but he 
also added that one of the other teachers down the hall was screaming so loud 
you could hear her all the way down the hall.  ??????? Maybe I'm wrong ???????
Maybe 10 years olds ARE that hard to control ???? That makes screaming almost
necessary???

What would YOU do ?

Gawd, I hate this ..... as Meg puts it - The Field Test Kid.  Guarantee 
there'll be an FT2 (-;

Thanks !
Patty

    
    
      I think it would be very important to document every thing that has
    happened. 
    
      I'm not sure about whether to persue it more now or wait, but if this
    is the way this woman is, she won't change over night just because
    she got caught and got into a bit of trouble over it. She'll wait until
    the 'coast' is clear and start right up again, that is unless she's
    made a committment to change her behavior. If this is her normal
    'behavior' she has established time will have her 'doing' it again.
    
       My concern is that she's working with 'children', if she's an
    abusive person by nature, she may find ways of abusing them with 
    tiny threats that may prevent them from going to a parent or the
    principal. She may be more 'manipulative' in her abuse and make
    it harder to define it as 'abuse'. 
    
        Examples of possibilties.....   1. Stricker with kids. Putting
    them in the corner for longer periods of time.   2. Insults that may
    sound like a little twisted and the child may not know if it's an
    insult or she's trying to get them to 'do better'.  3. May shorter
    appropiate time for work and then the kids CAN'T finish and therefore
    she can 'punish' them. Appropiately of course, like staying after
    school.   BUT, to her this may be a way of abusing them and she'll
    be in 'control' of disciplining them with what she will call
    discipline, BUT, it may be because she's not giving them the proper
    time, the appropiate age work. Just to kill self-esteem slowly
    and make it look like they're not able to do their work.
    
         Just some 'twisted' ways she may use to get back at the kids 
    WITHOUT the swearing and hitting. This way she gets her 'abuse' in
    without it looking so obvious, now that she has been caught. Beware
    if your kid is unhappy, yet it seems like things are fine. Like he
    may not even be able to 'define' the problem. He'll feel 'bad' about
    a comment or situation, but not really sure why. Watch his grades.
    She may up the anti on the work and the grade will go down. 
    
       I don't want to scare you, but if this is the way this woman is,
    others things may happen that may not be so apparent.
    
    
    Rosie
    
    
          I guess I've been in too many groups. I just know that people
    don't change over night. PLUS, I also know from my groups that people
    who 'abuse' find other ways if they can't make the abuse obvious.
    I have a paper on "Cycle of Violence" which we use in our woman's group
    that is used to see how a 'batterer' abuses his or her spouse. I
    personally thing this can also be applied for any person that 'abuses' 
    other people. They have a 'pattern', when caught they calm down, treat
    the victim 'nicer', they are the pillars of wonderment. The minute
    the feel it's all hunky dorey for them, the target their 'victims'
    again. This is basically what these children were in this classroom.
    
       Rosie
    
        

    By all means, I recommend writing a letter to the principal...
    and include a copy to the teacher.  I think that the teacher has
    to get a copy of any letter you write to the principal.

    I like your suggestion of documenting by describing the things
    she has stopped doing....

    People dont change (really) but they can modify their behaviour.
    That is about the best you can hope for.  If that behaviour
    modification is too painful, they may look for a new profession.
    If they cannot change, then they can be removed from the classroom.

    Our daughter had a teacher last year who was making her life quite
    miserable.  (and other kids too).  Among lots of other things,
    she taught exclusively by handing out mimeos for the kids to
    fill out.  No real instruction of any kind.  She had piles of them
    on her desk and when you finished one, you handed it in and got the
    next.  She marked them and every morning some kid would have the
    job of returning all the marked up work.  The kids first job
    for the day was to go through the wrong answers and fix them.
    She would call kids up to her desk and go over things kids
    were having trouble with.  Eventually the sheets would all come
    home, when they were 'correct'...our piles of mimeos from this
    teacher were a couple feet high.

    I dont consider this teaching....and we complained about this as well
    as many other things.  Eventually it got to the Superintendent who basically
    role modeled for the principal how to firmly let the teacher know
    that she has to shape up.

    A few things changed and life improved incredibly for our daughter.
    Kids SO want to admire their teacher...its amazing how little it
    takes to keep kids interested in school.  And how often that
    can be abused.

    The mimeos still came home...not quite so many, and they no longer
    were stamped all over with various RED ugly stamp...WRONG,
    YOU CAN DO BETTER, etc. etc.  Hey...its getting better.

    Then one day our daughter brought home a big pile of yellow stickies...
    with all the stamps on THEM.  She had changed from stamping the
    actual papers to putting stickies on them and stamping the stickies!
    And our daughter had dutifully saved ALL her stickies...and didn't
    quite know what to do with them.

    We were rolling on the floor with laughter at that.  You are right...
    you cant change people.
    bob

Patty, I may have missed something, but has anyone yet suggested that you
write a note to Kenny's parents?  If you don't have their address or phone
number, you could send it to school with your son, and ask him to give it
to Kenny so that Kenny could give it to his parents.  In the note you could
ask Kenny's parents to ask Kenny what happened, just like another noter
here suggested.

      Carol

Ugh .... I was afraid of some of this .... especially when he came home Monday
night with PILES of homework .... I was truly amazed - not that any of it was 
terribly difficult, but still it took him almost 2 hours to do it all, and he 
was working on it most of that time (only whined a bit while working - he 
saved the bulk of his whining for before and after).  

Tuesday night was more reasonable, and I'm not sure about last night (he was 
with his dad).  

Guidance counselor spoke w/ teacher, and she said she had a really terrible 
w/end thinking about all of this -- that still leaves it up for grabs as to 
whether she felt terrible because she's not guilty, or she felt terribly 
guilty.  You decide.

*BUT* If she's innocent, then I think she'd be SCREAMING to drag Kenny into 
this and ask HIM if she touched him.  At least I know I would, in her shoes.

I appreciate the feedback on abusive traits ... it certainly didn't go 
unnoticed that she said she had to TRAIN herself to clamp her hands behind her 
back and walk backwards when a kid gets to be too much.  

That's a good idea to copy the teacher on the letter -- I'll post it here 
first - and hopefully it'll convey the idea that we're NOT going to sit by and
let it happen.

Thanks again for all the great feedback and ideas.  I really appreciate it!!

Patty

re .17 

THAT'S a good idea!!  I've been trying to figure out how to get in touch with 
them.  They don't seem to be in the book, and the boys don't have his number, 
or feel they can really get it without a lot of other questions raised.  I 
will send a note in with Chris.  

THANKS!!
Patty