Conference moira::parenting

I wonder if this is an offspring of the abortion debate in SOAPBOX.

>	1) Adoption rates for babies of various races (like are there enough
>	   parents to equal babies to adopt) (ages 0-3)
>
>	2) Are boys adopted more or are girls?

The Feds publish a book called the Statistical Abstract or some such.
I suspect it would have information like this.  Ask you local reference
librarian.

>	3) For babies who do not get adopted, what are the reasons?

Offhand, I'd say disability, race, and legal problems are the major
roadblocks.  If you said "children" rather than "babies," I'd add age
as a factor.  Adoption advocacy organizations should be able to give
some insight into this.  If you have WWW access, try The Adoption
Network Home Page (http://www.adoption.org/adopt).

    Contact your local chapter of Resolve.  I suspect any local
    adoption agency could help you, if you cant find the number.
    bob

    
    Boy, I am curious about your reasons for asking...
    
    Adoption is a rather complex area. That is, the question about equal
    numbers of parents and children of the same race may not have much
    meaning. Many transracial adoptions occur because people in wealthy
    (mostly white) nations want to adopt and have the resources to adopt
    children. Some children in poor (many non white) nations may be placed
    for adoption because of severe economic conditions. Perhaps that
    appears to you like more white parents and more children of color ? To
    others, it may look like some people are able to expand on their
    original notion of what a family is and what it looks like.
    
    Also, I'm not sure what you mean by reasons children are not adopted.
    It's not like people go to a store and choose a kid. What happens is
    people search their souls to determine what they think will work in
    the family they are trying to build. They may be afraid of a "disability"
    and therefore do not choose a placement program which is focused on
    placing "special needs children". 
    
    As I was trying to decide whether adoption would work for me, I had to
    come to terms with my fantasies of "baby" and "family". Could I handle
    the issues that would come up ? Would I be able to bond with an older
    child ? After coming to terms with myself, I looked for a placement
    program interested in placing children with single parents.
    
    And then God intervened and a miracle happened...the miracle was
    adoption.
    
    Mass Adoption Resource Exchange (if you are in Massachusetts) may keep
    info on sex, age, etc. for children in the care of the state who are
    available for adoption.
    
    Open Door Society may have info on international adoptions. 
    

    
    >>Boy, I am curious about your reasons for asking...
    
    Just a WAG, but the tone of the base note made me wonder if someone was
    considering putting their child up for adoption, and want to be sure it
    will be adopted.  By the questions, I suspect there may be a potential
    health problem with the infant or unborn child ....
    
    At least those are the kinds of questions that went through my head
    when I considered adoption as an alternative.
    
    Good Luck!

    It's very hard to make sweeping statements about 'adoption'.
    There are a great many ways 'adoption' happens.

    You may sign up with an agency to adopt a new born infant
    of a birth mother who's identity is hidden from you.  The birth
    mother may be local or international.  This is what many people
    consider 'adoption'.  You may adopt the new born of a birth mother
    who wants to meet you, have you at the birth, and who wants to
    maintain contact throughout the childs life.  You may adopt an
    older child.

    Each agency has different criteria for matching children to
    parents.  Most allow you to specify things like 'medical condition'.
    I think that most allow you to specify whether you want to/are
    willing to adopt a child of another race than your own.  Some do
    NOT ALLOW you to adopt a child of a race other than your own.
    Most do NOT ALLOW you to specify the sex of the child unless you
    have other children in the family.  MAny do not allow it at all.
    Some agencies try to place kids with families that actually look
    more like the birth mother.  Many birth mothers have religious
    preferences.

    I've read that most people would prefer to adopt girls than boys.
    I'm not sure why.
    bob

The following is being posted for the basenoter, who prefers to remain 
anonymous at this time.  If you wish to contact the author by mail, please 
send your message to me and I will forward it to the anonymous noter.  
Your message will be forwarded with your name attached unless you request 
otherwise. 

      Carol duBois, PARENTING Co-moderator

**************************************************************



	One thing I would like to clarify is who I meant when I said the word
adoption. I was talking about babies in the USA only, not world wide.

	Reasons for not wanting an adoption as in disabilities, age, things
like that.

    Perhaps unrelated, but anyway....

    If anyone knows of any babies that are available for placement,
    I know of two wonderful couples who are childless and are
    seeking to adopt.  I could provide their 'resumes' (statements
    and pictures of themselves) on request.
    bob

    re:.7
    I also know of one childless couple who is seeking to adopt.
    I also can provide a "resume".
    SUe Lewis

    
    Re: "babies in the USA", my impression is that, for the most part, the
    children who are waiting for placement are children who "have been in 
    the system" for a while. That is, the state and the courts may try to
    keep a child with biological parents for a long time...years...before 
    terminating the parents' rights and making the chidl available for
    adoption. By that time, the child may not be a "baby" any more. Then,
    the state, in placing the child for adoption, is looking for a very
    special kind of family.
    
    I do know of one instance in which an adoptive mother had been matched
    with a birthmother by an agency and the adoption fell through because
    the child, supposedly, had a birth defect. I say supposedly becasue the
    agency has since acted in ways which cause one to question its
    practices. Perhaps the baby was matched with more than one family....
    
    I have never heard that race is an issue in placing babies except when
    people are talking about those babies in the care of the state and in
    the system for a long time. 
    
    I encourage the basenoter, if you are considering adoption, to contact 
    one or more agencies to discuss your situation. If you are in
    Massachusetts, HOPE and Lutheran Family and Children's Services are 2
    places to start. Ask them about their process. Don't get yourself
    confused by a lot of responses in a notesfile. 
    

>    I have never heard that race is an issue in placing babies except when
>    people are talking about those babies in the care of the state and in
>    the system for a long time. 

In the 1970s, a national organization of black social workers came out against
placing black children with white families.  Since then, it's been very
difficult for whites to adopt blacks.  The result is that black children
stay in foster care much longer than white children.

    To clarify my comment...I've never heard that more children of one race
    are available than parents of that race except in the case of children
    in the care of the state (foster care). As I said, these children often
    wait while the state and courts make decisions re: parental rights.
    
    Having spent a lttle time with foster moms and children, I'd say the
    adoption issues include history of neglect, cocaine addicition, age of
    child by the time is is legally available, etc.
    
    Yes, the social workers took a position on this which is somewhat
    ignored in the case of international adoptions.                  
    

The following is being posted for a member of the PARENTING notesfile
community who prefers to remain anonymous at this time.  If you wish
to contact the author by mail, please send your message to me and I will
forward it to the anonymous noter.  Your message will be forwarded with
your name attached unless you request otherwise.

      Carol duBois, PARENTING Co-moderator

**************************************************************

	A couple I know are unable to bear their own children, and are 
	interested in pursuing adoption routes.  

	She is very active, outgoing, and works part-time.  Her husband 
	is more passive, and works full-time.  He has told her to go 
	ahead and look into this, and let him know what she finds.

	However, she is afraid if she starts talking to people (agencies 
	and/or lawyers), they will find it strange that she initially 
	arrives alone (not with her husband).  

	For those of you who have adopted, do you think this is true?  
	Also, is it really that uncommon for one spouse to be more 
	aggressive in the search than another?

It's not at all unusual.  Many agencies have an introductory session,
where a group of prospective adoptive parents get to discuss adoption.
When we went to one, it was mostly couples, but there were a few
women whose husbands couldn't make it.  She shouldn't be too concerned
about making a good impression -- she should treat an agency like any
other business she's thinking of engaging.

In some states (e.g. Massachusetts), all adoptions are done through
agencies, so there's no point in making the initial contact with a lawyer.

    Sounds like her husband is not all that interested in
    adoption.  Perhaps not all that interested in being a parent
    or perhaps not interested in adoption.  Regardless of how
    the agencies interpret it, his lack of interest seems
    significant.

    Infertility can be a major disaster for some couples.  Just
    about any agency they work with will want to discuss this
    with both adoptive parents.

    taking the time to talk to the agencies is the LEAST time consuming
    part of adoption.  She should make sure this is something that
    they BOTH want to do.
    bob

    I don't agree with Bob.  I have not had experience with
    adoption agencies but I do see this just like any other
    major decision.  My husband and I are very similar to
    the couple in question.  My husband works hard and usually
    more than 40 hours per week and I work 20 hours a week.  This
    leaves me more time to do the scoping out.  When I have
    researched several different daycares, churches, new homes...
    whatever it is, I bring my list of recommendations to my
    husband and we make a decision together.
    
    I don't take the author of the note as saying that the woman is
    going to go through the entire process alone and suddenly bring
    home a child.  I see it as a process of elimination to find the
    appropriate agency to work with and move on as a couple from 
    there.  I don't see anything wrong with it.
    
    Pam

The following is being posted for the author of 920.12.

      Carol duBois, PARENTING Co-moderator

**************************************************************

    Just to make sure this note doesn't head the wrong direction, I wanted
    to clarify that this couple knew there was an infertility problem
    before they married.  So, that isn't really the issue.  It's more a
    quistion of how much leg work can she do before her husband needs to 
    start taking time off work to get more actively involved.

    Also, since they are located in New Hampshire, are there any
    suggestions as to where she should start?  

Some agencies schedule appointments for the homestudy in the evening.
If they do an foreign adoption, both of them may have to spend some
time in the country they're adopting from.  If they're doing a domestic
adoption, I don't see why he'd have to take any time off from work.

They should buy some books on adoption.  I'll try to remember to bring in
a list to post.  There's also a U.S. government agency called NAIC that
offers lots of free publications on adoption (including state-by-state
lists of agencies).

If they have WWW access, there's an AdoptioNetwork Home Page at
http://www.infi.net/adopt/

    Let me say in starting this note, that I do not want it to sound like
    a bummer note, nor discourage anyone from adoption.  But, a person
    adoption a child needs to know that this is a rather permenent
    situation, and when the adoption is complete, there is no going back.
    
    You NEED to know that.  The system tends to rush one through the
    process rather fast before you can get a feeling of 'fit' and bonding.
    Our process took 6 months.  And as parents, of course you want to
    complete the process as soon as possible.
    
    mistake #1.  No family history on child.  We adopted a blue eyed blond
    hair beautiful child.  She still is.  Family history obtained after the
    adoption revealed severe family problems.
    data obtained later showed severe child abuse.  This would later pop
    up and consume the child/family.
    
    mistake #2.  The period between taking the child and adoption was 6
    months.  This is also be referred to as the 'honeymoon' period.  The
    child would be on their best behavior.
    
    mistake #3.  Not realizing the financeual responsibilty being placed on
    the family.  When the adoption is complete, the parents are responsible
    until the child is 18.  You are responsible for any court appointed
    lawyers.  Any treatment that exceeds insurance.  any special needs 
    schooling that exceeds the school district responsibilty.  There are
    a lot of agencies receiveing lots of taxpayer money that will tell you 
    that.
    
    ----------
    Would we have done it had we known.  Probably.  would we do it again?
    Never.  The lesson to be learnt is in situations such as ours to leave
    the state on the hook as a partner.  six months is not long enough to
    know the needs of a child placed in your home.  In our case, you can
    not depend on the state suppling all the information that you would
    need to know how much special attention a child will need in the future
    based on the child's past.
    The money issue can distroy a family for life.  
    I hope I don't discourage you too bad, but I hope anyone enters into
    an adoption arraingment with more data then we have.
    ed
    

    I dont want to escalate this into a big argument and your
    points are well taken.  And I'm not sure who you are addressing them
    to except yourself.  However...

    We've adopted three kids.  And I'ld do it again in a second.
    2 have special needs.  Then again all kids have special needs.

    Kids born to you are probably just as likely to have special
    needs as kids you adopt.  When you give birth, you're also
    sort of 'rushed' right through the process.  6 months of
    'honeymoom' period is about 6 months longer than birth.

>    mistake #3.  Not realizing the financeual responsibilty being placed on
>    the family.  When the adoption is complete, the parents are responsible
>    until the child is 18.  You are responsible for any court appointed
>    lawyers.  Any treatment that exceeds insurance.  any special needs 
>    schooling that exceeds the school district responsibilty.

    All of these sound just the same as when you give birth to kids.
    I hope no one approaches adoption as if it were any different.

    unrelated....I've been really APPALLED at the language Pres. Clinton
    is bandying about related to adopting a child.  "Hey, maybe we should
    adopt!  Wouldn't that be nice".  They sound like their considering
    getting a new pet.
    bob

I think any adopted non-infant (over 6 months?) is "special needs."  Our
daughters were adopted at 19 months and 35 months.  The older one has an
obvious "special need" (deafness), but they both show the effects of
what they've been through (life in an orphanage, among other things).
It's this kind of "special need" that can make adopted children
different from birth children.  There's also an arguable idea that
parents who put their children up for adoption are more likely to
have problems that can be inherited (such as ADD).

Also, that "court-appointed lawyer" is not a financial concern
that most biological parents have to worry about.  (Or at least
it's not a concern that this biological parent is aware of.)

I got the impression that the lawyer had nothing to do with the adoption
and everything to do with the child's behavior.  I could be totally wrong.

    I hear you bob.  I have two adoptive children.
    A big caution is to make sure the state is a bigger partner in cases
    where the children are [extreme] special needs.
    Parents should know what they are getting into.  This can mean a longer
    period for the adoption.  It can mean getting family/child history
    before the adoption.
    I didn't think we went into the process blind.  We went to classes for
    two years in Massachusetts prior to our daughter's placement.
    ed
    

    
    I haven't walked a step in your shoes, much less a mile - I have given
    birth to 3 children .... and reading your note, aside from the lawyer
    (and I'm not sure what that's about) I read no differences.
    
    All 3 of my children have "special needs".  I affectionately call them
    my "defective kids".  Things that affect every aspect of their lives. 
    Things that no one warned me about (in spite of them knowing the
    possibilities existed).  Things that no one even thought of.  Things
    that certainly no one else is paying for or dishing out the time to
    deal with.  
    
    My mother's father was in his 70s when she was born.  There is no
    medical history whatsoever from that side of the family.  No one ever
    mentioned that her manic-depression was hereditary and we should be
    concerned for ourselves and our children.  Point is we may as well have
    never known.  I'm diabetic - strong family tendencies with this, but
    there isn't enough history to be able to trace back and say "yes" or
    "no" about relatives.  Does it matter?  Well, I'd sort of like to know,
    but I still have to deal with it, so we just deal with it.
    
    Whether you adopt a child or give birth to a child, the whole
    experience is a vast unknown.  You must be willing to dedicate and
    completely devote your self and your life (yup, and your money!) to
    this child.  Any less than that will leave you and the child unhappy.
    If you aren't willing to set yourself aside, for the next 15-20 years
    or so, I would never recommend anyone to consider being a parent.  It's
    a damn hard, thankless job.  Oh sure, sometimes they're incredibly cute
    and precious.  When you're about to toss in the towel, they seem to
    know, and pay you back with extra hugs or thoughts (well, sometimes).
    Overall, it's a long-range job, and the short-term of it, the day to
    day, really stinks a lot of the time.  But when you look back at the
    years, it's pretty wonderful.  Figure it out ....
     
    That doesn't matter WHO it's biological parents are.
    And btw - you NEVER knw if what doing is the 
    right thing, or is enough, or is what the child needs. 
    It's all hope and a prayer.
 

    Patty, I've asked your question a number of times, What's the
    difference?
    Perhaps it's ending up in the swamp filled with allegators.  And there
    was a road map available that could have shown you a route around.
    Allegators such as a baby being totally abanduned for the first 7 days
    of its life after it was taken home from the hospital.  And abanduned 
    a 2nd time after being given back to its mother.  I don't know of too
    many parents that precondition their children that way.
    These children still need all the help, care and love that all children
    need.  The state, knowing these details, needs to be a partner.
    Parents who adopt need to have all the information available to them.
    I don't know the answer.
    But perhaps someone has the wisdom/knowledge that we lack, or that the
    family workers, physcologists can give to us:  What do you do if a
    child doesn't follow your direction.  What do you do if the child
    continues to run away?  The hospital our daugher is in uses mechanical
    restraints and medicine.  As parents, we can't.  What do you do if a
    child beats a parent up?
    ok I can hear the chorus of give the child love.  Love doesn't erase
    the years of abuse the biological mother and foster parents did to her.
    And 10 years of intense counciling does not do the job either.
    ed
    

    I agree that the state should be a better partner when there are known
    problems or known predictors of problems. If a child has been abused or
    abandoned, I think that adoptive parents should know this up front and
    receive counselling/referrals on how to deal with the likely outcomes.
    
    Yet much of what you describe in terms of behaviour is not uncommon
    amongst children who have not been abused who are in their birth
    families. My sister, for instance, was loved and cherished by our
    parents from the day she was born. She is intelligent with no learning
    disabilities. The older she got the worse she got. It was never
    acceptable for her to hit or bite; yet she was 3 when she became so
    angry with a toy that she bit through my toenail and into my toe [I
    needed stitches and lost the nail] and when she was 17 she literally
    bit a chunk out of Daddy's arm when he restrained her from hitting
    Mother with a chair. When she was 14 she started disappearing for days
    at a time. She was in and out of psychiatric hospitals and rehabs. She
    threatened me with a piece of a window she'd broekn because she found
    the door locked when she got home. The list goes on ... breaking and
    entering, suicide attempts, sex for drugs.
    
    I agree. It isn't helpful to tell parents that if you love enough and
    have consistent rules, you won't have these problems or you can
    overcome them.  Sometimes you can. Sometimes not.
    
    I guess what I'm trying to say is that, yes, someone SHOULD have told
    you that there were predictors of trouble to come; but, a lot of the
    troubles you are having aren't unique to adoptive situations.
    
      Annie

    The big difference between an adopted child/infant
    and one who is biologically yours is that the 
    adopted child/infant has been *abandoned* and
    no matter how soon after birth, is left with
    the trauma of that abandonment.  The trauma 
    shapes the child's personality.
    
    To deny the trauma of the abandonment is unfair
    to the adopted child/infant, to the adoptive
    parents, and to the biological parents.  All 
    members of the triad suffer grief.
    
    My adopted sons are now in their twenties.
    I don't think I'll go into further personal
    detail in here but, I must admit.  I was not
    prepared for the intensity of their grief, which
    was compounded by several unexpected tragedies.
    
    I have several very powerful references at home.
    I'll post them tomorrow. I"ve also done a lot of
    research on the subject of "adoptees' grief" and
    have written several papers on the topic for grad
    school.  Anyone interested, let me know, I'll 
    gladly share them.
    
    Unfortunately, the TRIAD notesfile for members of
    the adoption triad, is no longer available.  That
    offered resources as well as personal stories.
    
    My heart goes out to all adoptive parents, 
    adoptees, and biological parents who have had to
    relinquish their children, for whatever reason.
    
    Dolores
    

>    Unfortunately, the TRIAD notesfile for members of
>    the adoption triad, is no longer available.  That
>    offered resources as well as personal stories.

It's still available.  It's been inactive.

    re: .27
    
    I am a read only noter, but this note shocked me!  
    
    My brother, sister and I are all adopted.  Not one of us has ever felt
    any grief over being "abandoned".  What a horrible word.  Maybe this is
    a naive attitude, but my parents raised us to believe that someone loved
    us enough to know that we would be better off with someone else.
    They feel we are "gifts" that came to them because they loved and
    wanted children so much.   
    
    I would hate to think that something is wrong with me because I don't
    feel this grief.  I only feel gratitude for the women who gave birth
    to me. Several years ago my sister's birth mother tracked her down.  My
    sister met with her once, basically just to thank her and to tell her
    she did the right thing and that my sister has had a wonderful life.
    
    Noone has ever treated us differently than my parents children. We have
    a large extended family and we are always considered real "family".  In
    fact I'm the geneoligist of the family, keeping a book on the history 
    of my parents families. Maybe we are unusual, there are several adopted 
    children in my parents families.
      
    I just hate for people considering adoption to think that every child
    grieves over being abandoned.  I don't believe this is true for
    most adopted children.   Maybe research contradicts this, but if it
    does, it makes me very sad.  
    
    Just my thoughts,
     
    
    Joan 
     

    Joan,

    Thank you for writing.  I have given some thought to trying to adopt
    a child, but the many of the notes in here have made me very nervous, 
    and almost feeling guilty for even thinking that my husband and I 
    could become a child's parents through adoption, like somehow we would
    never be enough, could never be real parents  .... not because of us, 
    but because of the nature of adoption.  Your note was a welcome
    bit of more positive perspective.

    Leslie

    joan,
    there are cases of abandonment.  My daughter was brought home from the
    hospital and had no human contact for 1 week.  The leaves an impression
    on the brain that is long lasting.
    Not all children placed for adoption come from loving mothers who had
    their children placed because they cared for them.  DSS takes children
    out of abusive homes and puts [some] up for adoption.
    
    Leslie, I don't mean to discourage anyone from adoption.  But I believe
    it would be better to learn from my mistakes.
    ed
    

    Joan,
    
    I am not saying there is anything wrong with you 
    because you don't feel any grief.  It sounds like
    you have had tremendous extended family support
    in addition to parental support.
    
    The variables around each adoption situation differ.
    But, I do believe the grief is there to some degree.
    
    Perhaps your adoptive parents were able to help you
    heal at a very young age. 
    
    I am glad for you.
    
    Dolores

    Adoption References
    
    There are two authors I recommend:
    
    o  Nancy Newton Verrier
    
       The Primal Wound:  Understanding the Adopted Child
       --------------------------------------------------
    
       This book is based on the author's own experience as 
       both a biological and adoptive mother, as a therapist 
       who works with all members of the adoption triad.  The 
       essense of the book was her doctoral thesis.
    
       Ordering Information:
    
       Send $14.95 plus $2.50 mailing & handling to:
    
       Nancy Verrier
       919 Village Center
       Lafayette, CA 94549
    
       (CA Resident add 7.25% state tax.)   
    
    o  Betty Jean Lifton
    
       I've only recently received this reference so I haven't
       had time to read Betty's books yet.
    
       Tell Me a Real Adoption Story (children's book)
       -----------------------------
          Barnes & Noble told me that the distributor
          is out of this one but will have more later
          this summer.
    
       Twice Born:  Memoirs of an Adopted DAughter
       -------------------------------------------
          Older book I found in a used book shop.
    
       Lost and Found
       --------------
          Can be ordered by Barnes and Noble.
    
       Journey of the Adopted Self
       ---------------------------
          I picked this one up, almost new, hardcover,
          recently published, at a local Church book fair.
          

    I occasionally show some of these notes to my wife.  She
    asked that she be allowed to reply.....

    Hi Ed,
Your note touched off several reactions in me. The most important is to note
that the early experiences your child had would cause me to wonder whether your
child suffers from an attachment disorder.  Other names by which this syndrome 
are known are 'unbonded child' 
and 'unattached child'. Children who fall into this category are, if left
without treatment, unable to love and unable to trust. This condition seems to 
be created by a number of factors, early abuse and/or neglect being the most 
common. Many of the older (meaning older than two or three) children in the 
adoption system are there for just those reasons.  If things hadn't been awful 
for them in their original situation, they wouldn't be available for adoption. 
Repeated disruptions in these kids' lives do not help matters any, either.  (It
is relevant to this conversation to note that the condition has been known to 
develop in the birth children of loving parents in intact families as well, 
if the child experiences long bouts of unremitting pain for which no one is 
able to provide any relief.)
     These children present as charming and endearing outside the home, and do 
beautifully in the home during the "honeymoon period". After that, they can be 
like a bomb going off in a family.  The more you try to love them, the more 
dramatically they react. People outside the family who have not had experience 
with children who suffer from attachment disorder will not be able to relate to
the parents' description of the child. (Interestingly, for reasons that are 
not well understood, these children are often reported to be quite physically 
attractive and engaging.) At home, these children, who equate love with 
annihilation,  seem to do almost anything in their power to get their parents to
hate them.
     A tremendous resource for any adoptive or prospective adoptive parent is 
the Open Door Society of Mass. It is a resource, referral, advocacy and 
support network for people involved in adoption.  
     Several years ago, at the annual Open Door Society conference, some 
families began to describe the extraordinary situation you seem to be 
describing. They were tearing their hair out despite being experienced parents 
of many children, both adopted and biological.  They were being told by 
therapists and social workers who did not know any better to just keep loving 
that child and providing security, and the child would eventually come around.
     Fortunately, there are a growing number of child workers who are now 
familiar with attachment issues. The topic has become a common one at the 
annual conferences which is why I have heard about it. Hugh Lichtman, a 
psychologist, I believe, at WEDICO Children's Services in Boston was the first 
person I heard who could speak to this issue locally. There is a psychologist 
in Conn. whose name I will attempt to track down who has developed expertise in
this area.  There is a place in Evergreen, Colo., called the Evergreen 
Attachment Center, which espouses a treatment called Holding Therapy. Foster 
Cline and Jim Fay have written books on this subject. There are
others.  
     If, in fact, this is something like what you and your daughter are dealing
with, my heart goes out to you.  It seems that traditional methods of helping 
do not work with these kids.  But Gregory Kech, the most recent keynote speaker
at ODS, reports having good success with specialized forms of treatment with 
kids as old as nineteen. (Kech is from somewhere in the Mid-West.) I would be 
happy to help you track any of these resources down if you are interested.  

     To the others of you considering adoption, I can well imagine such a 
discussion might be anxiety-provoking.  As the mother of four great kids, some 
adopted and some biological, I can sure encourage you to continue your research 
and soulsearching.  Unattached children are not common.  It is the awareness 
that they exist at all which is becoming more common.  The tragedy has been for
the children and their adoptive families to have been so badly misunderstood.  
Adoptive parenting, like all parenting, is not something anyone should take 
lightly. Parenting isn't for everyone.  Adoptive parenting is for fewer. Going 
into either with eyes wide open is important.  Some of the kids we come up 
with, either biologically or through adoption, will require a more conscious 
form of parenting. For me, the adventure has been one which I could not 
possibly have passed up.          -Judy   

    to Judy,
    
    Amanda suffers from a number of difficulties, Post traumantic Stress
    Syndrom and ADAH to name a couple.  Although I've never heard of
    attactment disorder by name, I've heard the symptoms, and yes, she
    has them.  Treating her problems is more an art rather than a science.
    The doctors never agree amoug themselves, and when she is hospitalized,
    more experts are always brought into the picture to give conflicting 
    advice.
    
    I've heard of WEDECO, but there services are either for the lower
    income people, or upper income people.  Their service are some that
    Amanda could really use, but are way out of our affordabilty.
    
    ed

Ed,

I ask you this ..... IF you had known that Amanda had been abandoned twice, 
would you have still adopted her?  Would you have still been able to love her 
- or maybe loved her more because of what she'd been through?  Or would you 
have turned and walked away?

If you'd have walked away, then I can see where "today" is 10 times harder for 
you.  But if you'd have stayed and fought it out with her, and stuck by her in 
spite of what she went through, then your anger with the state is only going 
to drain you more.  

As for "preconditioning" .... well, I don't know - I think that a *LOT* of 
first time parents do it, out of ignorance more than anything.  The baby won't 
stop crying.  They don't know what to do.  Whatever they do doesn't work.  The 
baby's perception is that there is no security in their world - no relief from 
the pain and discomfort.  Christopher was in pain for the first 9 mos of his 
life, and no one could help him.  Maybe he'll grow up to have similar problems 
as Amanda does.  No one warned me -- and there were CERTAINLY doctors who 
should have/did know(n).  

The point is, that yours or someone else's, every child is a potential sack of 
dynamite.  You have some control over it, but not always a lot of control.  
And sometimes no control at all.  You seem so angry about Amanda's situation, 
and I wonder what would change that ?  If you had known before, what would you 
have done differently?  You know now - what's the best that you can do?  Being 
angry takes a lot of energy.  If you're beating yourself up for not "doing 
better" or "knowing more", it's an effort that will only wear you down.

Each and every day I try as hard as I can, to do right with my children.  Some 
days that effort shows through more than others.  Some days it's a lot easier 
than others.  And each and every day, they do something that is against my 
wishes.  Against what they've been taught.  Occassionally things that are 
against our entire moral fiber.  Maybe it means that I have done a terrible 
job, and I'm a failure as a mother.  Or maybe it means that they are 
individuals and will make their own decisions - no matter how rotten they may 
turn out.  I will always guide them "the right" direction, and I will be there 
to help them pick themselves up when they fall -- BUT I can not hold myself to 
being responsible for each time that they fall.  I figure you get about 10-13 
years to "teach" your children.  Then you get a few years to try to keep them 
steered on the right track, and then it's pretty much over.  What we teach 
them when they're small is what they'll build their life on.  So when they're 
16, and out for the evening, I have to be able to sit back and TRUST MYSELF 
that I've done the best that I could.  And TRUST THEM that they will hopefully 
make reasonable decisions, and stay safe and out of trouble.  But you know, if 
I get a call from the police station, I'm not going to sit and question 
everything that I'm doing/have done, in raising them.  

Chris is 11, and is getting more independent.  With that independence comes 
"time alone", where he has every opportunity to do as much good or bad as he 
wants.  The best I can do is explain to him over and over again, "You're at a 
point where you'll be making more of your own decisions.  Try to always 
remember - the decisions that are simple to make, are usually the wrong ones.  
The right decision is usually harder to do."  Resisting temptation, honesty 
and all that stuff -- it's easier to be rotten than it is to be good.  I can 
only hope I've taught him, well enough, the value in "being good".  ...because 
a boy that won't be good, might just as well be made of wood.  Pinnochio is a 
great teacher!  

Love her?  Why, is that questionable??  I doubt it.  SHE has problems - things 
that you can help with, but not things that you can control.  Realizing that 
we don't control our children's lives and what happens to them, is probably 
one of the hardest things to accept.  But if you can accept that, then perhaps 
you can find some more peace for yourself.  

I know I made myself crazy for years.  Chris has a lazy eye, no depth 
perception, and poor vision, which causes him problems in all other areas of 
his life.  In one visit, one doctor mentioned "Oh, he has a small optic nerve 
- that could be contributing to his problem.  But that's not uncommon in 
diabetic mothers".  Who knew?!?!?  I sure didn't know that at all!!  And for 
years I felt solely responsible for all the trouble, and teasing and patching 
and surgery and pain he went through.  Until one visit with a different Dr, 
and I mentioned the optic nerve, and he said "Well, it doesn't seem small to 
me.  And anyways, it really doesn't matter WHY he has this problem.  The fact 
is that he does, and we need to do everything that we can to try to help him."
And it really freed me, and enabled me to be able to be more compassionate 
(and a LOAD less guilty) about the whole thing.  

Jason had a huge head for the 1st 2 years of his life, and almost died in 
utero, and is quite small (for his age), because of me.  Period.  Not
questionable.  Jonathan had 'bad ears', was partially deaf for a while, and
has twisted legs.  Not bad enough to correct, but bad enough that Mom will 
always notice.  

No warnings, but we deal with it.  I probably could have done something to 
help each of them, had I known - but I didn't.  But I also and much less 
useful to them, if I'm wasting my energy beating myself up about it.  It's 
here, this is what we have to deal with, and we just try to deal with it.
It gets in the way sometimes, and we work around it.  I'm sure it's not as 
severe as what you're dealing with -- but then again, my boys aren't as old as 
Amanda yet, and I have no idea what the future holds in store for me.

No one knows.  There are no guarantees.  And you are not solely responsible, 
nor to congratulate or blame, for everything that happens to your children.
If she came home with straight-As, would you take credit?  They are their own 
person, and the control we have is limited.

I wish you Peace.
Patty

    Patty,  I can't give you an honest answer if I would have adopted her
    had I known all the information.  It's too easy to say for all the
    hardships we've endured to say no.
    I can say, though, the state would have been a bigger partner in the
    deal.  I'd have to say our lack of insurance at digital would have been
    a consideration.  For instance, our insurance pays for 20 hours per
    incident for counciling.  We go through that in less than four months.
    And there's not a person that will give us guidance.  How do you
    influence a child to do something when they do not want to do it and
    there is no consequence in the world that matters.  The hospital is
    able to use mechanical restrants and tranquilizers when she becomes
    violent.  Try that at home.
    They never attempt to deal with her with only one person. 
    Unfortunately, we don't have the ability.
    
    Again, I'm not trying to discourage anyone from adopting, just be
    totally informed about the child you are getting and how they will fit
    into your home.
    
    ed
    
    a side note, we have made progress in this hospitalization.  She now
    can cry.  That may be a small issue, but it is the first real time
    she's been able to express her emotions.

>    Patty,  I can't give you an honest answer if I would have adopted her
>    had I known all the information.  It's too easy to say for all the
>    hardships we've endured to say no.

Well then, would you consider putting her up for adoption now?  If you could, 
would you walk away from it today??  

>    I'd have to say our lack of insurance at digital would have been
>    a consideration.  For instance, our insurance pays for 20 hours per
>    incident for counciling.  We go through that in less than four months.

This seems like there should be some money/funding/assistance somewhere.  
Maybe a different policy/company?  (I'm pretty sure that Matthew Thornton 
allows more than that).  Other places I'd check for referrals/resources, might 
be planned parenthood, and WIC or welfare.  IF you relinquish guardianship, 
she becomes a ward of the state, and they will have to pay for it.  There may 
be something workable there.

>    And there's not a person that will give us guidance.  How do you
>    influence a child to do something when they do not want to do it and
>    there is no consequence in the world that matters.  

I wish I could answer you - I have exactly the same problem with Jason.  He 
could care less what his punishment might be, or what "privileges" might be 
revoked.  If he wants to or doesn't want to do something, he'll do just as he 
pleases, and just deals with the consequences.  The ONLY way I've been able to 
cope with him, is to come down like a hammer each and every time, and not 
allow him any ability whatsoever to "test" me.  A friend of mine has exactly 
the same problem with his 12 yr old daughter.  I think you could hang her by 
her toenails, and lock her in a cell for a year, and she'd never show that she 
cared.  That's always the hardest part -- finding a place where you can relate 
to the child.  Because there *IS* something that will make her respond -- it's 
just one of the best kept secrets, and she sure as heck isn't about to tell 
you.  The journey is in trying to find out how to "hold" her.  What she needs 
and wants.  My personal opinion is that it all stems from a major void, and 
the non-reaction to discipline(whatever) is in self-defense -- sort of "Hey, 
do what you want!  I've been hurt so bad, there's nothing you can possibly do 
to make me feel worse!  Just try it!"  Emotional shutdown.  Just because she 
can't show it, doesn't mean she doesn't feel it.  I think there's a big 
difference, but then this is probably all old news to you.

>    The hospital is able to use mechanical restrants and tranquilizers when 
>    she becomes violent.  Try that at home.
>    They never attempt to deal with her with only one person. 
>    Unfortunately, we don't have the ability.
 
Clearly there are things that a hospital environment can provide for her, that 
you can't.  And it sounds pretty clear that this is going to be part of her 
treatment on her road to recovery.  Do you think she's recovering??  I'd 
interpret her ability to cry as MAJOR progress.  
   
>    Again, I'm not trying to discourage anyone from adopting, just be
>    totally informed about the child you are getting and how they will fit
>    into your home.
    
And I think if you get that, you'll get more information than a parent giving 
birth.  There are just so many unknowns, that it's all a result of parenthood, 
not just adoption.  And forever - not just as children.

A friend of mine was a schoolteacher, for "special needs" children.  One day a 
bunch of kids jumped her in the parking lot, and almost beat her to death.  
That was ~5 years ago.  She has seizures that no one can explain, and seem to 
be emotionally related, as opposed to physiological.  She has a marked 
decrease in her IQ, and is not able to carry out multiple tasks.  She has a 
short term memory retention of several minutes, and long term memory is dotty 
- somethings she remembers, others she won't.  She lives day to day, and not 
very well.  No one warned her boyfriend that this is what she'd have to deal 
with, and her parents certainly didn't anticipate that their 30-something 
daughter would return home, from halfway across the country, suddenly 
incapable of caring for herself.  Maybe Gina should have been warned about 
some background on the kids she was teaching - maybe it was pretty much one 
kid.  Maybe it was because it was a hot summer day.  Maybe having another 
teacher jumped, previously, should have triggered more warnings.  But no one 
really knew to do differently, and whatever the maybes might have been, there 
would always be today, and trying to help this woman rebuild some of her life 
and her self.  Because the saddest part of all is that she remembers that she 
used to be brilliant, and completely organized, and never forgot a thing.  Now 
she needs notes to remind her of every single task .... and notes to remind 
her to try to find peace, and forgive.  

If folks want to be forewarned -- be forewarned that a child can bring about 
anything.  Anyone's child.  I'm sure that there are kids in adoptive 
situations that have turned out to be very productive, admirable 
children/adults, and not.  The same as kids that stay with their biological 
parents.  

    Ed, 
    
    My heart goes out to you and your family.
    More offline...
    
    Dolores