Conference moira::parenting

    For a while her primary source of food will continue to be breastmilk.
    You'll want to nurse her or give her the expressed bottle before you
    offer solids - else, she'll not want to nurse as vigorously and your
    supply may gradually decrease.
    
    At first, you will only offer a fruit once a day, trying a new one
    every 3-5 days, then fruit twice a day etc., then adding vegetables.
    So, the solids will be minimal for at least another month.
    
    Good luck - I can remember coming to work and picking oatmeal off my
    watch after the morning feeding!!
    

I started introducing solids around 6 months as well.  We continued
with our normal breastfeeding routine while gradually introducing
3 meals a day.  At first, the baby really wasn't interested in solids,
so we never forced the issue.  She's 14 months now, and still has some
meals where she's ravenous, and others where she just plays.  It's
normal.

I let the baby decide when to start cutting back on nursing.  
There were times when I offered, but she'd nurse for a minute then run
off to play.  That's how she gradually cut back to 2 to 4+ nursings a day.

On days when I work, she nurses twice a day and I pump once.
She drinks anywhere from 8 to 12 ounces of milk at daycare.
We started using cow's milk at age 12 months for this. On 
"healthy" days when we're both home, she nurses 4 or 5 times.  On days 
when she's sick, she might nurse 6 or more times. It's true, your body
will adjust to this!  I also give her 3 or 4 ounces of cow's milk
in a bottle at each meal.

You will probably find your milk production decreasing a lot.  Mine has.
I'd guess nursing is now 80% comfort for my little one and 20%
thirst/nourishment.  She used to nurse for hours.  Now it's unusual
if she nurses more than 5 minutes.

    Atlehi started cereal andsome fruits in the last month.  At this point
    she still prefers me, but will eat the cereal in a pinch, or when we
    are having our evening meal.  Frank still brings her in at lunch time
    for me, and "mama" is her choice.    
    
    From what my understanding is, babies still depend on mom for most of
    their nutrition for the first year, but gradually wean off as their
    interest in solid foods increases.  I do know that with Carrie,
    sometime after the first year, nursing was mostly in the morning, and
    evening, and if she was upset or feeling insecure.  I think Lolita also
    followed this pattern, but we are talking over 19 years ago, so I don't
    really remember.    
    
    Meg

    
    I started Rebecca on solids at about 18 weeks - baby rice or fruit
    puree once a day and built up to 3 meals a day by the time she was 6
    months. My milk supply dropped as she took more solids (no more soggy
    shirts!!) but she still wanted me whenever she was insecure. At 19
    months she is still nursing in the mornings (when she wakes hungry),
    plus early evening when we get home from work/creche and I nurse her to
    sleep at night. The evening feeds are for comfort rather than food as she
    can still nurse for 10-15 minutes after eating a huge bowl of pasta for
    supper!!!
    
    If your child won't take solids at first, wait a few more weeks. They
    will do things when they are ready and weaning should not be hurried.
    
                        seals
    

    
    	I started Emily on solids at 4 months.  After 3 days of needing
    	to nurse her every 1-1.5 hours in the evening (from 3 or 4 o'clock
    	'til bedtime), I tried cereal.
    
    	At first, she continued to nurse on a regular schedule in addition
    	to the cereal.  After she got the hang of eating solids, she
    	weaned herself from the dinnertime nursing.  She was still getting
    	enough milk throughout the day (judging by the pedi's guidelines).
    
    	As she began to want more bottles from Grammy during the day,
    	I introduced lunch.  She didn't go to three meals a day until
    	around 7 or 8 months.  Each time I added a meal, within a few weeks
    	she'd drop a feeding.  By 8 months, she was nursing only upon
    	waking.  The only weaning I had to do was from that last feeding.
    	At nine months, I weaned her.  
    
    	Interestingly, I thought she'd never miss it, but within days,
    	she began to suck her fingers whenever she was tired or needing
    	comfort.  So, even though she seemed disinterested in the nursing,
    	I do believe she was getting her comfort from it.
    
    	Karen
    

> 	Each time I added a meal, within a few weeks
>     	she'd drop a feeding.  By 8 months, she was nursing only upon
>     	waking.  The only weaning I had to do was from that last feeding.
>     	At nine months, I weaned her.  


If at 8 months she was only nursing at waking, how was she getting her 
fluids during the day?    The nutrition was coming from the food 
obviously, but what about drink?  

    
    	Sorry, I should have mentioned that as she gave up a feeding,
    	my production also decreased, so I was pumping less often.  When
    	she dropped the first two nursings, she was still getting enough
    	fluids throughout the day, so didn't need any more bottles than
    	she had been getting.  I started giving her some milk in a sippy
    	cup or in a bottle during the day when she was low on fluids.
    
    	Around the 8 month time frame, she just took bigger bottles
    	when she took them.  She was probably on the low side of the
    	range for fluid intake, but was growing well, wetting plenty,	
    	and the doctor seemed satisfied.  
    
    	I stopped pumping totally around 7 months, so the bottles she
    	did get were formula.
    
    	Karen
    

 When I first started David on solids, the first thing he tried was rice 
 cereal. I got a little weird with this. Since the quantity involved was so 
 small, I put a little of the dry cereal in an egg-cup, then expressed into the 
 eggcup - a one container dish! I looked more peculiar than usual, but it 
 worked.

Since I'm the basenoter, I should update this.  

We started rice cereal, followed by fruit, over the holiday break 
(I don't mix them together so she does not get used to eating the cereal 
sweet).    Use a little over a tablespoon of cereal and a little less 
of breastmilk (made the first batch too runny and it made for great 
"raspberries").      Then she gets probably a bit over a tablespoon of 
fruit (have done applesauce, bananas, and are on pears now).   

So far it's just breakfast.    I found that if I wait for demand it 
holds her longer than the usual 4 hours between feedings.  I had been 
feeding her right after she breastfed, but at any convenient time
during the day. 

Ok, this week, back to routine.   Wake her at 6:15, breastfeed her, 
put her back to bed.    Do my stuff, wake her at 7 and the first thing 
is cereal/fruit.    After that, play for as long as we have left, and 
then dress her last thing before we leave.   


What I'm hoping is that whatever reduction of milk-drinking she does 
happens for the bottles I leave the sitter.  In the three weeks prior 
to Christmas we had gone from two 4.5oz bottles to two 6oz bottles.   
I dont' want to have to pump any more, and ideally I'd like to pump 
less.  She still eats from me at 6am, 6pm, and 11pm, so there is ample 
opportunity for catching up on milk.  Don't get me wrong, I'd never 
short her, but I'm hoping that as the solids increase, I can time the 
feedings such that she wants less milk at the 11am and 3pm (bottle) feedings.


Thanks for all of the help so far.    It's so strange,  you just start 
feeding them, but you're never sure how much.     One noter sent me a 
great cheat sheet with quantities for ages.  You don't find that 
often, even What To Expect The First Year doesn't have it. 

    
    	Perhaps if you moved the solids to a point midday, she would
    	reduce the size of the bottles she takes during work hours.
    
    	Then, you could pump less, and nurse a bit more (or longer)
    	when you are with her.
    
    	Karen
    

    Please don't shoot me, but my little fatty Paul has been introduced to
    rice cereal at 3 months this week.  It was a nightmare!  My ped. dr.
    said as long as he is twice the weight he was when born (which he is
    more now than that!) its o.k. to introduce it because he wants to eat
    constantly.  
    
    He sees the little spoon and cries hysterically.  I felt so bad that I
    had stopped for the last two days but I work and he is not sleeping
    through the night (I am nursing at night, morning and lunch and
    supplementing two 4oz. bottles inbetween).  I have had mixed reactions
    about making a hole alittle bigger in a nipple and putting into his
    bottle but I have to try something.  
    
    Any ideas?  He really hates it and I have tried but he just gets so
    angry that he spits it out and I hate to just shovel it down his
    throat.  I also don't believe that I should.
    
    Thanks ....
    
    cj
    
                                                              

    cj,
    
    I won't shoot you, but here is an idea about Paul.  Your mileage may
    vary.  
    
    He may not have developed the ability to move food from the front of
    the mouth to the back of the mouth yet.  It is a different skill from
    sucking.
    
    Now, to me if he is growing well, I wouldn't force cereal down him
    until he is ready.  Offer it once or twice a week, after he has nursed,
    and you are both relaxed.  If he turns it down put it away and try
    again another day.  I don't start offering solids until my kids are
    "mooching" or trying to take food off my plate when I am eating.
    
    Another thing you could try if you absolutely feel that Paul must start
    eating solids is to offer it off of your (clean) fingertip.  Atlehi
    does much metter with new foods if they are offered this way, instead
    of having the extra distraction of a spoon.         
    
    I feel strongly against giving babies cereal in a bottle.  All you are
    doing then is adding extra calories, and possibly filling a stomach
    with something it isn't prepared to digest.  
    
    Meg

    Paul has developed the ability of move food from the front to back.
    Both my mother and MIL had noticed this a while ago, but I thought it
    was way too soon for him to be introduced to solids, no matter how
    mushy I could make them.
    
    However, "in the olden days" you know they all gave us cereal at six
    weeks.  They claim that, "nothing ever happened to your digestive
    track" but we can get into a rat hole discussion on what people used to
    do (drinking, smoking, etc.) in the past and what we now know we
    shouldn't be doing.
    
    In any case, the first day that I gave this to him he seemed to enjoy
    it.  He ate alot and I gave him me inbetween to wash the stuff down so
    to speak.  
    
    The only reason why I am trying this is because it seems as though he
    is hungry alot more than he should be.  He wants to eat every 2-3 hours
    and although its fine in the daytime, I didn't think it was right for
    him to be up every 2-3 hours at night at this time in his life.  Am I
    wrong?  My husband is now telling me that my milk production isn't
    enough for him and I should stop nursing completely and give him a
    bottle at night but he doesn't take to the bottle at night as he does
    during the day and I am not emotionally ready to give up breastfeeding
    (and I also know that its so good for him) but with me working during
    the day fulltime now, I thought it was an option.  I also don't see
    what the difference would be because if he got a bottle every 2-3 hours
    at night, what is the difference if he was eating from me?
    
    Am I making sense?  It all seems so complicated and I know that it
    shouldn't be for the most part-
    
    cj
    
    

   > is hungry alot more than he should be.  He wants to eat every 2-3 hours
   > and although its fine in the daytime, I didn't think it was right for
   > him to be up every 2-3 hours at night at this time in his life.  Am I
   > wrong?  My husband is now telling me that my milk production isn't
    
    My first son was like that. Was sleeping 5-6 hours at night until I
    came back to work at 3 1/2 months then started getting up 2 and 3 times
    a night again. We started him on cereal just before his 4 month
    birthday and it didn't make a darned bit of difference. He finally
    started sleeping through the night at around 6 months of age. For what
    it's worth, he was breastfed when I was home and bottle-fed during the
    day. And it never mattered if he got a bottle at night instead of
    a breastfeeding (except to me!). IMHO, some kids are just like that.
    If you don't think he's ready for solids, then wait. 
    (And don't ask about my second son -- I think he was 9 months old
    before he would sleep more or less regularly through the night!)
    Good luck!
    Sue

    
    I don't think it's all that unusual for nursing babies to want
    the every-2-hour feedings at night.  My daughter did until
    9 months or so.  I had her sleeping with me, so getting out
    of bed wasn't an issue.  I think part of her nursing was 
    hunger and part was comfort.  My attitude was, what's wrong
    with a little comfort?  I was willing to give it, and she
    certainly benefitted. 
    
    You mention that your husband tells you your milk production isn't
    enough.  What is his reasoning for this?  If your baby is gaining
    weight at a reasonable rate, why would your spouse assume you're
    not able to supply the baby's needs?  (As an aside, I encountered
    many comments from older relatives who were doubtful that I
    could "produce enough" or if my milk was "strong enough".  That
    seems to be a common hold-over from the days of breastfeeding
    being a social taboo.)
    
    Try contacting Le Leche.  They can give you a good basis for
    comparison of what's "normal" and what to expect.
    
    --Jennifer

    Hi Cj,
    
    What are you making the cereal with, water or formula?  I don't
    use these.  I used apple juice to start and now, whatever juice
    she's on.  
    
    My husband made her cereal with water one time and she absolutely
    refused it!  He didn't understand why she wouldn't eat it.  That
    feeding I had to mix some applesauce in it, then she loved it!
    
    Try making it taste better and you should see an improvement.
    
    Keep trying, they have to learn how sometime.  If he's that hungry,
    then he does need more.  My doctor pushed the cereal in the bottle
    thing too, I didn't like the idea.  I figure if they're going to
    eat cereal, they might as well learn how to eat it right.
    
    Good luck!
    
    Peggy
    

>    My husband made her cereal with water one time and she absolutely
>    refused it!  He didn't understand why she wouldn't eat it. 

Next time, have him taste it himself.  Then he will understand.  Baby cereal 
has the taste and consistency of a water-soaked newpaper.

Clay

I mix our daughter's cereal with breastmilk or breastmilk and water, 
depending on how much I have on hand.   I purposely do not mix with 
fruit juice, or the fruit I feed her after the cereal because I don't 
want her to get in the habit of having everythign taste sweet.   I believe 
I read that in "What to Expect" and personally I buy into the idea.  

just another perspective

>Next time, have him taste it himself.  Then he will understand.  Baby cereal 
>has the taste and consistency of a water-soaked newpaper.

Excuse me, Clay, but you're wrong!

Baby cereal tastes like library paste.  I remember eating library paste.

Not meaning to offend anyone, but I've both by future-men infants were
vociferous eaters at 3 months. Especially after I went back to work.  

	Words of wisdom from our pedi:

	Growth spurts + breastfeeding = nursing every two or three hours

	Breastfed infants often gain weight like gangbusters the first
	six months. Back in normal range by 1 year.

	You can try adding a bottle of formula in the evening. (It didn't help)

	Pedis in this geography in general don't recommend any 
	solids until six months.  *Especially* if the baby is growing well.
 
	California may pass a law soon that sentences mothers who put cereal
	in bottles, to a full night of sleep in prison. {While their
	pedis stay up all night feeding the baby.}  :-)

	Those Y-chromosome types like breastfeeding better than bottles. My
        boys would sleep a lot during the day and have only a couple of bottles
        with the sitter and make up for all the missed feedings in the evening
        and at night.

	My husband also believed that more, better, different nourishment 
	was the key to getting our boys to sleep all night.  His mother
	convinced  him with some of those war stories of cereal at n days. 
	He changed his mind when he discovered all options other than 
	breastfeeding involved *him* actually getting out of bed.  

	If I wasn't suffering from sleep_deprivation_now_I_know_what_POWS_
	felt_like, I probably would have learned sooner not to leap out of
	bed at the first whimper.  Within 5 minutes our #3 child has been
	known to go back to sleep by himself! 
	

    Rochelle_who_was_up_most_of_the_night_too

    cj,
    
    Nursing every 2-3 hours at night is VERY normal for breastfeeding
    babies, even if the mother stays home with the baby full-time.  Trust
    me on this.  I was home for the first year with Lolita and she did the
    same thing as Carrie did and now Atlehi does.  Every 2 to 3 hours on growth
    spurts.  By the way, I talked to a friend who bottle-fed from day one,
    and her kid did the same thing, even after they put cereal in the
    bottle.  Then he became constipated and screamed all night instead of
    just waking up to eat.  If dad is determined to bottle this baby, maybe
    he needs to be the one to get up and do it. 
    
    Believe me a truly hungry, undernourished baby is obvious.  They don't
    have the energy to get up or to nurse at night.
    
    There is one underlying issue here that I am hearing.  It doesn't sound
    like you are getting a lot of support from parents, inlaws, or your
    husband for breastfeeding.  Are both his and your parents from the
    generation "that couldn't nurse?"   Does he have problems with you
    taking the baby to bed at night with the two of you.?  This is
    something that your local La Leche league may be able to help with.
    
    Meg  

    OK, where do I begin (again).
    
    My husband is not supportive of my breastfeeding.  He believes that its
    an inconvenience (when we are out and I need to feed him) and bottles are 
    easier because he can help.  He says that if I get lack of sleep I am 
    somewhat grumpy (who me? yes me) in the morning and it would be better 
    for everyone if I was able to sleep more and let him take over some of 
    the nighttime feeding.  I don't agree.  Although its nice that he wants
    to help, I get such an emotional gratification by breastfeeding him and
    am not ready to give up the bonding that we share.  And, because I am
    not breastfeeding exclusively, my production has been lower than it
    used to and he thinks that is why Paul is getting up so much at night. 
    I have been giving him a bottle before he goes to bed and it doesn't
    make much of a difference.  
    
    As far as him sleeping with us, my husband does not mind but I am
    beginning to think that maybe its making him get up more.  You know,
    when we roll around (do "we" wake him) and the fact that he can probably 
    smell my milk makes me wonder if that awakes him.  I do realize that
    the noter who said "if you don't get up to his first cry he might go
    back to sleep" and know they are right.  When he is in the crib (which
    is in our room anyways) I have let him squirm around and sometimes he
    does put himself to sleep.  The funniest thing about all of this is
    when we are not home, he tends to sleep through the night, or just
    about.  Everytime I'm at the in-laws, friends or my parents, his
    schedule is something like 9 p.m. - 4:00 a.m.  Makes you wonder doesn't
    it?  
    
    cj

    cj,
    
    It has always been easier on me to take a breastfeeding infant to bed. 
    I don't really wake up at night beyond getting the baby positoned on a
    nipple and nod right back off to sleep, but that is me.  
    
    Have you talked to him about other ways he could help?  Playing with
    your son while you are getting dinner, (or making it for you), and
    other interactions for him are every bit as important as feeding him. 
    As paul gets older he will want someone on the floor to interact with
    when he is trying to crawl or roll, and someone to play with toys with
    him.  Also all babies need their papa's to cuddle with them.
    
    Is your husband interested in health facts for you or your son?  There are
    major benifits to his health from breastmilk that formula just can't
    match.  La Leche can give you a complete list, but fewer infections and
    allergies are a couple.  Mom just found an article also pointing to
    lower numbers of UTI's for women who breast feed as well as a reduction
    in risk for premenopausal breast cancer.    
    
    As far as inconvenience, Frank and I camp and backpack into remote
    areas with uncertain water and no refrigeration.  We also enjoy eating
    dinner out.  It isn't a hardship to ask for a booth in most places
    so you can be descreet.  Poncho's are a big plus too we found to
    avoid upsetting those who haven't separated the function of breasts from
    their appearance and secondary pleasure functions.
    
    Meg  
    

    Meg,
    
    Great points.  I believe that my husband's biggest issue is that he
    just doesn't believe that Paul is getting enough from me.  Yesterday at
    lunch, Paul ate fully from me, both sides, for 30 minutes.  When I
    arrived home my husband told me that he was immediately hungry after I
    left and ate a 4oz bottle.  Maybe his 3 month growth spurt?  My husband
    is also very private.  Even when I am home, he doesn't approve of my
    breastfeeding in front of my father, no matter how much I cover up.  
    
    However, great news!!! Paul slept from 8:30 - 1:00 and then to 4:00
    last night.  
    
    The only issue that we have had is the breastfeeding.  He loves to play
    with Paul and as I mentioned, gave up alot so he could be home with him
    til the spring and sit all day with him.  He is not looking forward to
    returning to work then, which is nice for me because he sees how hard
    its been for me to return to work.  
    
    I don't know.  Sometimes I think its just because Paul is such a big
    boy.  At 13 weeks today he is 17lbs and probably a few onces more.  He
    was fussy last night and is constantly putting his fingers in his
    month.  I checked his gums and see teeth starting to come through!  
    
    Great point too about the camping.  We too enjoy to backpack and I
    never though of the benefits of breastfeeding there.
    
    cj

    cj,
    
    Sounds like Paul is doing just fine.  Atlehi pulls the bottle trick on
    Frank a lot, but we figure it is because she really just wants mama or
    the bottle for comfort to go to sleep.  Atlehi is a big girl for me, at
    7 months she weighed more than my other two did at a year.  Frank is
    the stay-at-home parent at my house, but since this is number 3 for me
    and number 2 baby for him, he is fairly relaxed about what she does from
    day to day.  Give Paul some time and he will work into a schedule that
    works for both of you.
    
    hey, for backpacking, being able to nurse is critical.  With the little
    one's I carry enough extra without a can of powder and a gallon of
    distilled water, and a couple of bottles.  
    
    Meg  

    
    Jonathan is just over 4 months, and he's been eating cereal, regularly,
    for about a week.  He seemed *REAL* hungry before then, to me, but any
    time I tried to feed him, he really hated it.  Two things I've sinced
    determined  a) he wasn't ready for it before, and b) he hated (still
    does) the tast of what I was feeding him.  He's the only baby I've ever
    met that doesn't like bananas! (can't be MY son (-;)  I tried the dry
    cereal with water or formula or mixed, and he hated it.  I tried it
    mixed with bananas and he hated it more.  I tried JUST bananas (knowing
    what cereal tastes like - yech!) and he was even more unhappy about it.
    I gave up for a few weeks, then tried the cereal-in-a-jar food that you
    can buy in the store.  Gerber makes it as a "Second Stage" food, but I
    think it's second just because there's "multiple flavors".  Well *THAT*
    went over much better.  He likes oatmeal and mixed cereal.  The stuff
    in the jars is mixed with bananas and applesauce.  he still doesn't
    care for rice cereal, and he really does hate bananas.  He absolutely
    **LOVES** pears!!! (definitely not my kid! (-;), and now will eat the
    dry rice cereal w/ lotsa pears mixed in.  
    
    Unfortunately, I've not been able to find the boxed cereal without Iron
    added, so feeding him that stuff pretty much just constipates him.
    
    The food helped him sleep a little better, but I really think that it
    was more a coincidence of him just getting older, than anything to do
    with real hunger.  Now he eats at least twice a day (mid-morning and
    dinnerish-time), and now that he's eating twice a day, that seems to
    help him stay content a little longer.
    
    If you're opposed to using fruits, then try the vegetables - Gerber
    makes them as a first food.  Personally, I don't think you'd be doing a
    lot of harm starting him with fruits, but I'd be REAL surprised if
    there's many babies that actually like the taste of plain rice cereal.
    
    Also, don't feed him food when he's STARVING. We give Jonathan a smaller
    bottle (about 4 oz as opposed to his usual 6 oz), then wait an hour or
    so, then feed him his cereal, then wait another hour or so, then give
    him another bottle (pretty much as much as he wants - usually about 406
    oz), and then he's out for the night - usually about 6-8 hours.

    I recently started my 4 1/2 month old on solids.  He definitely
    does not like the rice cereal unles mixed with juice - but I've
    found that he does like the oatmeal mixed with formula.  I tasted
    both and can certainly understand why he didn;t like the rice!! 
    I know they say not to give babies the fruits until after the
    vegetables because once they taste the sweetness of the fruits
    they won;t eat the vegis - well, that hasn;t been the case with
    Logan.  He eats them both equally well.  
    

I think it was in What to Expect, but I'm not sure.     They said that 
a rejection of food at this stage is due to texture, not taste.    
According to the book, they have very poor sense of taste at this 
point, but texture is important - which is why everything goes into 
their mouth, to test/explore texture.   

    Well, I'll have to read my what to expect book.
    
    Paul is officially 14 weeks tomorrow and still will not take any type
    of solid.  
    
    A few replies back someone mentioned getting the rice cereal in the jar
    that is already mixed with applesauce and bananas.  He took it on my
    finger once and then after that, it was death again.
    
    I'm inclined to think that he isn't ready for this type of food as
    stated earlier but will two weeks make that much of a difference?
    
    I started giving him bottle of 1st stage juice this weekend and you
    should of seen the look I got when he discovered his "bottle" was not
    what he thought it was however, he drinks it .. not as quickly as milk
    but he will take it.
    
    Should I just wait for the solids alittle longer?  He takes the 1st
    stage oatmeal in his bottle.  I have been giving him 2 Tablespoons in a
    6 oz bottle and he doesn't seem to mind it at all. 
    
    My MIL and Mom are telling me that he is getting fat because he drinks
    too much milk and needs food.  He is now 18 lbs.
    
    
    Thanks ...
    cj

    Each child is so very different.

    Griffin was not interested in food at all until well into his seventh
    month (yup) oh sure we could force a few bites into him at a time but
    he could have cared less. Even now if we can get one serving of
    something down we consider that a victory.

    He didn't really even start taking formula until about 3 weeks ago
    (he's 10 mos now).

    So what did he do to survive? Nurse, and nurse, and nurse, and nurse,
    he was not at all interested in giving that up (although I was). 

    Something has changed though, he now only gets up 2-3 times a night (he
    was getting up up to 9 times a night), he's taking a four ounce bottle
    at a time and he will eat up to two servings of food at a time.

    He's still not ready for table food yet.

    This is in such direct contrast to how Spencer behaved. Spencer was a
    little chow hound who would cry in between spoonfuls because you wouldn't
    be able to get the food into him fast enough. (used to hold the jar
    right under his chin to shave seconds off of the time).

    Each child is on his own schedule and if you have patience enough, your
    child will tell you when he is ready to begin what he needs to begin.


    Oh yeah, and with regard to your mom and MIL commenting on your baby
    being fat because he drinks too much milk,....... oh never mind, I'll
    just leave this note civily.

    				Wendy

I apologize if this is a repeat...

but you might want to consider only feeding him solids when he's NOT hungry.
When Noelle was hungry, she knew that a bottle or a nursing would fill her
tummy, but she didn't yet have the understanding that rice cereal could do
the trick.  You won't want to try to feed him on a full stomach, but you might
want to give him a "snack" about an hour before he might typically get
hungry.

Good luck!

             <<< Note 660.28 by GMAJOR::WALTER "used to be Aquilia" >>>
                             -< My little "fatty" >-
    
        
    <Paul is officially 14 weeks tomorrow and still will not take any type
    < of solid.  
    
    This is *YOUR* (okay, so dad gets some input).  
    
    
    <My MIL and Mom are telling me that he is getting fat because he drinks
    <too much milk and needs food.  He is now 18 lbs.
    
    Wendy is Mother Teresa, if I hadn't asked for their advice, a polite
    version of "Butt OUT" would be my answer.  It seems to me your Paul
    is *thriving*.  Why fix something that isn't broken?  


    Rochelle_who_is_an_expert_MIL_trainer :-)

    P.S. BTW, my boy is 25 lbs, my biceps will never look this good again!

    Well nurished babies on breast milk are not FAT!  Many will go through a
    chubbo stage, but when they become mobile, they grow right into the
    extra weight.  Goodness, my mother was bitching at me not to feed
    Atlehi solids because she was such a chunk, although she was mooching
    food off my plate, and all but grabbing my sandwich out of my mouth
    when I ate lunch and she was nursing.  Now that she is starting to
    crawl, I am seeing her slim down, or grow into her weight, I don't know
    which.  I can only hope she won't pull a Carrie, and move around more
    than she can take in calories.  
    
    I didn't start Atlehi on any solids until she was almost six months, and
    even ignored the "mooching" until it was obvious that SHE wanted to
    eat, not what anyone else thought she should be consuming.  
    
    Waiting a week or two and giving him another try then won't hurt
    anyone, except for the fretting grandmothers.  Fighting to get food
    into a child who clearly isn't interested can set you and Paul and dad 
    up for a lifetime of food battles.  Take your cues from Paul, he will
    let you know what he needs.
    
    Meg  

    
I know, MIL's and Mothers know everything but a first time mother I am so 
I tend to listen probably more than I should.  I have heard that nursing 
babies are not fat too.  I also tend to agree that Paul just isn't ready 
for the solids.  

I have found that renting a pump and getting my milk production up has 
also helped the situation.  Seems as if he gets more at night now and is 
sleeping better.  I think that I just wasn't producing as much as I should 
of and he was too tired suck vigorously when we nursed at night and 
therefore, would tire out, go back to sleep after 10 minutes of nursing 
and then wake up the following hour for another 10 minutes.  Now, he can 
get a hold of me better and nursed for 15/20 minutes for the last few 
nights and is sleeping longer.  He woke up only twice last night; 2:00 and 
4:30 and went to bed at 9:30.  It was heaven!

(Course the 6oz. bottle with 2T of rice cereal that he wolfed down in 7 
minutes last night probably helped a bit.  (I am not joking, when he is 
hungry, it takes him less than 10 minutes to drink a 6oz bottle!))

So, now that I have production up, I will be able to nurse without 
hesitation and my husband is better about the whole breastfeeding 
situation.  Paul still gets supplementing bottles when I am not home but 
that doesn't bother me.  As far as the advice, I will always get it, no 
matter if I ask or not.  Isn't that what they are there for (according to 
them anyways?) :) :)  Thanks again for the sanity checks....





cj

I remember my pediatrician being very opposed to cereal in the bottle 
since sometimes a baby is demanding bottle or breast because she is
thirsty, not hungry and you are forcing extra calories on them that
they may not need - any easy recipe to make a baby chubbier than they 
would be naturally.  

Additionally, don't forget to offer your baby water at times when you 
think they could not possibly be hungry,  espcially if you live in a
house that is dry from the heating systems in winter.

Norma

    .33> I know, MIL's and Mothers know everything
    
    Sometimes they'll back off if you reply "What my pediatrician says is
    <x>" - whether <x> is really a quote from your pedi or just your own
    maternal instinct talking!
    
    ]:-}
    
    Leslie

	Leslie,

	I asked my mother to see her license to practice medicine this
	week, after she told me she wouldn't feed Emily the banana
	bread I packed because it contained nuts.

	Her reasoning was that it was a highly allergenic food.  I quoted
	my pedi's advice on feeding, then asked for her degree.

	Mom should know better than to mess with her pregnant daughter ;-)

    
    Another approach around the whole matter is total pacification of the
    offending adult - a reply such as "Hmmm, that's an interesting idea -
    maybe we'll give that a try next time", and if necessary "but for now
    I'm going to <xyz>"  My mother is CONVINCED that I have No Idea
    whatsoever what I'm doing with my kids, and their Dr. is just more
    incompetent than I am in her eyes (Are you SURE he knows what he's
    doing?!), and my babysitter MIGHT just be a raving murderer-lunatic
    (you never can tell!), and all the school teachers are inept etc etc.
    So now, I pretty much just ignore her or give her lip service.  And
    it's been almost 9 years, and 3 kids, and I think she's *FINALLY*
    starting to get the idea that I'm not her little kid anymore, and I am
    perfectly capable of raising a happy healthy family.  Or if nothing
    else, she at least knows I'm not listening to her anymore. (-:  
    
    You can grin and bear it, but you don't have to accept it, and always
    keep in mind (what saved me from choking her sometimes!) - sooner or
    later one of you will go home, and you won't have to listen to her
    anymore, and you can continue raising your child the way that YOU see
    fit.
    
    Good luck!!

    Patty,
    
    I know the feeling.  Here I am with a 20 year-old, and 8 year-old and a
    9 month-old baby, and mom STILL questions my child raising techniques.
    
    Meg
    
    

There is hope.  Mothers do eventually get used to you doing what you think
is right, but it does take a few reminders now and then.  My mother has
finally gotten the idea, and, although she still offers advice, she tends
to preface it with "I know you always do what you want, but...." and then 
gives her advice. That lets her tell me her tidbit (and a lot of them are
quite helpful) but also gives me an out where I can still do whatever it
is that I feel is best.

But every once in a while, she does forget they're my kids.  Best one to
date is when we had Brad circumcised at 17 weeks (he hadn't come home from
the hospital yet), and Mom thought we should not have put him through 
any more pain and wanted us to wait til he was a year old.  We just didn't
tell her we were having it done, but she was there when he got his diaper
changed, and come storming back into the Family Room where I was with
my father and was feeding Jessica.  Mom turns to me and launches into
a tirade intending to tell me what a rotten thing I'd done, and she 
started with "As a mother, I..."  That's as far as she got 'cause I turned
around and said "what am I? chopped liver?"  I thought Dad would split a
gut from laughing, and I'm sure Mom didn't talk to him for a week, but it
did get the point across that *I* was Brad's mother and I would do what I
thought was best for him. She hasn't been quite that forward since.

Cathy

    Well, almost 2 months after I started my original note I am FINALLY
    happy to report that Paul started eating his first stage baby food
    last Monday night.  He had the bananas, mixed with cereal and formula
    and heated just a bit.  He didn't take much.  At first he wasn't quite
    sure what to do but by the third or fourth spoonful he was moving
    toward the spoon as I brought it to his mouth.  The next night he
    moaned if I didn't get it to him fast enough.  He also now spots "the
    spoon" and when I was eating my frozen yogurt out of the same type of
    bowl, he was giving me the eye that "he wanted some and to share"!
    I couldn't believe it!
    
    I guess I just had to give it some time!
    
    cj

    OK I am now totally confused.  After reading 80 replies in note 67
    about baby foods, I am under the impression that Paul is underfed.
    People have stated in that note that they should have 48oz. of fluid
    before going to solids/babyfood and then their fluids should decrease
    to about 32oz.  My son Paul is 19lbs at 19 weeks!  I know he can't be
    underfed but he only gets at the most 30oz of fluid a day.  Sometimes
    he gets 26oz.  His last bottle has 3T of food in it and usually is a
    6oz bottle.  He sleeps almost through the night, and usually only wakes
    once and that is in the early a.m. between 3-5 depending on when he
    went to sleep. 
    
    Now that he is wanting babyfood, ................
    
    I would of thought that his routine should be two bottles in the am.
    alittle food for lunch, two bottles in the p.m. and some food for
    dinner and then a bottle before nightime with some cereal.  Note every
    other bottle is 4oz and 6oz.
    
    Am I giving him too much, too little?
    
    cj
    

cj,

I think your feeding routine for Paul sounds "fine" as long as he seems
happy and is growing steadily.  You are right to follow his cues and feed
him when he shows interest.  The 48oz "guideline" does sound high to me
too, but it's all relative... My daughter is the same age as your son
(20 weeks Wednesday) and she takes between 24-30oz a day (half formula/
half breastmilk, so it's an estimate) and has 2 "meals" - late morning
and dinnertime - of cereal and 1/2 or more of a jar of babyfood.  She's
been "eating" for just a few weeks now, but like your son, learned quickly
what that spoon was all about!

Just for reference, Morgan is somewhere in the 16 lb. range (90-something
percentile) so the "lower" fluid level is not hurting her growth. Also,
she sleeps all night (approx. 9 hrs.), so isn't showing signs of being
underfed either.  I did notice a "new" type of cry that I've figured out
means "I want food", so I'm probably going to switch to 3 meals soon, once
I get through introducing all the vegetables...

Go with your gut and Paul's appetite, since the guidelines are just that -
every baby is different.

Good luck and enjoy,
-Cori

    cj,
    
    Are you also still nursing evenings and nights?  If so you have no full
    idea of how much he is getting and don't worry about it.  Babies are
    very effective at getting enough milk from your breasts, far more than
    a breast pump or hand expressin can hope to do.  
    
    The main concern to see if things are going right are:
    
    is he still growing?  (sounds like it to me)
    
    is he wetting at least 6 diapers a day?
    
    is he active and developing near his age group?
    
    If you are concerned about the fluids take the cereal out of his night
    bottle, and get up and give him a bottle or breast when he wakes at
    night.  Underfed babies are not active, not alert, and usually quite
    thinnish looking.  dehydrated babies have loose skin which stays up if
    you gently pinch it into a fold.
    
    It still sounds like Paul is doing fine to me.
    
    meg

    
    Geez, I don't think that any of my kids ever drank 48 oz of anything
    over the course of 24 hours.  Jonathan peaked out at about 30 oz/day,
    and he's certainly growing fine.  He's started food now, somedays he'll
    eat lots, other days he just wants his bottle.  I figure as long as
    he's thriving, why should I intervene with his natural appetite ? 
    Babies are pretty adept at letting you know when they *WANT* something. 
    I think it's also important to let them learn and control when they want
    to eat, and what.  That's a little more difficult with an infant, but
    if he seems to only want to eat 30 oz, and is doing fine, then why
    force 3 more bottles into him??  You'll both end up miserable about it!
    
    BTW - my other two were about 3 months old when they went to regularly
    drinking a full 8 oz bottle when they ate.  Jonathan's never had more
    than 6-7 oz in a single meal, and usually still only drinks 3-5 oz. at
    a time.  Different kids are different.  Put away the books, and listen
    to your child ... remember, the baby never read the books, he only
    knows how he FEELS, not what he's "supposed to be" doing. (-:
    
    Relax - it sounds like you're doing fine.  I'd guess your son knows
    himself better than "we" know him. (-:
    
    He's a week short of 6 mos old, and weighs ~16 pounds.  Last check up
    he was in the 60th percentile for height and weight.

    After reading the last 40 replies, I am a little confused....since
    everything is new to me, I thought I would ask here....
    
    Nicholas is 3 months, and I have decided to start him on a little
    cereal at night.  Currently he is getting 3 bottles of formula during
    the day and I nurse him after supper and during the night, and first
    thing in the morning.
    
    Now the questions...
    
    In the evening, I nurse him, and then about an hour later I feed him a
    little rice cereal.  He didn't like it the first few times I gave it to
    him, but now, I can't get it in fast enough!  While feeding him the
    cereal, I give him a little water to wash it down. (is this ok? good?)
    
    Now that I know he likes the cereal, and will eat it, when do I start
    introducing other foods? How? what times of the day?  I really prefer
    to be the one to try the foods out with him, that way I know how he
    reacts.  Also, right now he gets about 1tbls of cereal at a feeding,
    should I be giving him more (becasue he sure wants it).  If I start
    giving him more cereal, or try adding a fruit, do I cut out the
    bottle/nursing at that time.
    
    I have to say, Nicholas is not "deprived" in the food department. at
    his 2mos checkup, he weighed in at 13lbs (up from 8lbs at his 1mos),
    and he is in the 90% for weight and height.  
    
    So, my question is, are there any rules or guidelines about what order
    and when to start things? My pedi said I could start now, he just
    didn't want Nicholas on completly solid foods by his 4mos checkup. 
    One more thing, he takes 3 8oz bottles during the day. sometimes he
    finishes them, sometimes he don't.
    
    Thanks
    Anne Marie

    
    You can try giving him new foods.  My pedi suggests cereal, fruits,
    veggies, and then about a month after they've successfully tolerated
    all of that, meats/yolks or other protein foods.  I would TRY to try
    one new food and then wait a few days before starting another new food. 
    This will make it easier on you if he should be allergic to anything,
    to determine just what it is that bothers him.
    
    I wouldn't necessarily cut OUT a bottle, but I would expect him to
    drink a little less.  I'd also try to space them.  What I did when I
    started Jonathan was offer him a small bottle, then about an hour later
    some "supper", then about an hour later another small bottle, then bed.
    It seemed to avoid "gorging" him.
    
    Offering him a drink with his food is a good idea.  If he gets too dry,
    and doesn't have a drink, he may stop eating just because he's dry -
    not because he's full.  You may also want to consider using a sippy cup
    that you can see through, to give him his water.  Of course you'll need
    to plan on changing him after he spills most of it down the front of
    himself, but it's a start.  Jonathan *LOVES* the idea that he doesn't
    have to work to get his drinks now!  I just use the cup for his milk w/
    dinner - he still gets bottles for his formula (6 mos old).  It's all
    what they get used to.  By the time Chris was 3 mos old, his dad had
    him drinking water from a juice glass - without spilling any!  A feat I
    was never able to accomplish with the other two (-:
    
    I used to mix up 1-2 tsps of cereal at a time, with an equal amount of
    fruit.  He usually ate it all.  BTW - for the record, for those who
    think that feeding them fruit "first" will spoil their taste for
    non-sweet foods .... Jonathan's first foods for the first month or so
    he was eating *ALWAYS* had fruit or were just plain fruit.  His
    favorite foods to eat now are carrots and baked potato .... and he
    seems like he could care less about "sweet" food (well, he does like a
    cookie to nibble on!) - but boy, show him that jar of carrots, and he
    about pops out of his seat in excitement!  He does seem to have a
    preference for salty food though!  Hmmmm ....
    
    

Cereals first (all 3 stage 1's).  Then fruits (stage 1).  Then stage 1 
veggies (yellows first, then greens).     That's the order my pedi 
suggested.    Since you are starting cereal relatively early (I 
believe most say 6 months), it would appear that you could delay the
fruits/veggies for a while if you wanted and just stick with the cereal.  

I started with dinner so I could be the one feeding her, not the 
sitter.  Then went to dinner and breakfast.   Introduced lunch last, 
just last week (she's 8 months).   

I've added yogurt and cottage cheese and meats, but your child is too
young for those by most pedi's opinions. 


I nurse her 1hr before giving breakfast and one hour before giving 
dinner.    There was no change in the amount of expressed milk she 
drank at the sitter's as a result of breakfast.    I obvioulsy can't 
tell if she drinks less at bedtime due to dinner.      I have just 
introduced a veggie at lunch time and this has not impacted how much 
expressed milk she drinks at the sitter's.  I will be increasing the 
lunchtime food and then I would expect a decline in milk drinking.    

I'd say follow the baby's signals for how much he drinks, although you
may need to balance that against the minimum amount of fluid the pedi
wants him to have and cut down on food if he does not drink enough. 

    
    
>     and when to start things? My pedi said I could start now, he just
>     didn't want Nicholas on completly solid foods by his 4mos checkup. 

I kind of don't understand this comment by the pedi because mine is 
eating 3 meals a day, but still nursing 3 times and taking 10oz 
expressed during the day.  

My son is almost 9 months.  At 3 months he started formula during the day,
breast night and early morning feedings.  At pedi's recommendation, we started
cereal, fruit and veggies at 4 months.  We started out with the cereal for
the evening meal, about a tbsp. He took to this right away and wanted more so
we gradually increased the amount. Even now when he has cereal it is about 4
tbsp. so the amounts didn't dramatically increase.  I nursed him just before
he went to sleep, about 8. I never figured he was thursty because the cereal
was diluted with so much formula.  Once he seemed pretty comfortable with the
cereal we added yellow fruit and veggies - very gradually with one new food
at a time.  I next added breakfast and finally lunch.  He immediately took to
the solids and loves anything we give him.  I can't quite recall but guess
he was taking 3 (small) solid meals a day by 5 months.  I have never noticed
a decrease in his drinking since the solids were introduced.  At 6 months we
gradually introduced chicken/meats, again at pedi's suggestion. He lost 
interest in breast feeding at 7 months. Now he drinks about 3 8 oz. bottles
a day and sometimes has a bit of juice or water to suppliment. He doesn't 
really care for snacking or finger foods although we give them anyway for
practice.  Pedi recommended to us to stay away from dairy til about 10 months.
His feeling is that is usually the most likely food allergy. I have dairy
allergies so am definitely taking the recommendation.  Alex is a big boy at
about 22 lbs. He isn't fat tho, just a big boy.

Alex is in day care 2 days a week, my husband does the other 3. We manage it
so we are the ones to try any new foods. Following along what day care does,
we keep a daily record of the food, the amounts and times he eats. We also
record  his sleep/wake times, diaper changes and what was in them.  That 
has really helped us because we tend to forget when and what we did. 

I can remember really worrying whether I was giving him enough milk and then
the right balance of food and milk. It was especially a concern when I was
breast feeding and giving formula cause you just don't know how much they get
from the breast.  The pedi was not at all worried and thought we were doing 
just fine.

Kathy