Conference moira::parenting

    Most likely it is the temperature of the water.  Unless you have
    a very large tank, the tank water will be room temperature, which in
    the summer can be as high as 85 in the daytime and as low as 65 in
    the evening.  The fish cannot take the change in temperature like
    we can.
    
    We recently lost two fish to this problem.  The solution was to put
    the tank in the cellar where the temperature is more stable, or wait
    until the fall and invest in a heater to keep the temperature at
    a "pleasant" 76 degrees.
    
    Hope this helps...
    
    Diana

    
    You might consider getting a Chinese-is-it? fighting fish
    (species name is Betta, I think).  They look like a fancy
    goldfish but the color is deep-red or blue.   They seem to
    be more tolerant of temperature swings.  Because of their
    fighting tendencies, you can only have one per tank.  
    
    Carol

    
    Oh, I thought of more.  I also think that goldfish 
    are "high output" - i.e. they eat a lot and generate
    a lot of waste.   You might want to get some sort of
    sucker to help clean the tank for you.  
    
    

    Wow, someone has the same problem!!!  We bought a small aquarium on
    Thursday, put the water in that day and on Friday bought the fish (5
    neon tetra's, 2 corydore catfish for cleanup, 2 swordtail - a male and 
    female, and 1 siamese fighting fish also known as a betta).
    
    We tried to set it up according to the book.  We put the fish in the 
    baggie in the water for 15 minutes just to let them acclimate a little,
    then we put them in aquarium trying not to get very much of the
    original water in.  We also bought a couple of plants for them to hide
    in.  On Saturday we noticed the neon's were after each other for some
    reason, by late morning we found one of them dead (we think we
    actually saw the healthier one's going after a not so healthy one). 
    Saturday night we found two more dead.  The remaining two seem to be
    ok.  Then this morning I thought the Betta was dead, I put the net in
    to remove him but he took off...  But he keeps resting on the bottom so
    I think he'll be gone by the end of the day.
    
    According to what I read in my little "Your first aquarium" pamplet you
    should change 1/4 of the water once a month and use water that has sat
    for at least 12 hours to let the chlorine dissipate and the water come
    to room temperature.  You should never use soap on anything that is
    going into the fish tank.
    
    Of course that's done us a lot of good!  I think the problem is the
    temperature.  We only put one light in the aquarium because two lights
    makes the temp go up too much.  The tank goes down to 74 at the coolest
    in the evening and up to 80 in the daytime (so far).  The neons are
    supposed to like temps 76 - 78, the betta is supposed to like cooler
    temperatures.  The light in our aquarium goes on around 5:00 am and
    goes out around 9:00 pm.  If algea becomes a problem we'll leave the
    light on less.
    
    There are fish that like to eat algea, check with your local fish store
    on which ones they are and whether they get along with gold fish (I
    think gold fish are kind of aggressive towards other species, though I
    could be mistaken).
    
    Sandy

    After losing so many goldfish, inspite of expensive lights, filters,
    etc, I now have mine in a bowl.
    
    One thing I did learn was not to rinse or wash the stones. If you must
    rinse them, just agitate the stones slightly and rinse off the muck.
    Too many people are inclined to clean them, removing the alge.
    
    As for temp, maybe we have the fish that won't die, because every 2
    weeks, I put them in a cup and run tap water into the bowl and throw
    them back in - they're still alive after 10 months.
    

    This reminds me of a Pepsi commercial I saw the other day.
    
    Child shows sister neat trick the goldfish does... Goldfish plays dead
    but when shown can of Pepsi, will leap out of the bowl.
    
    Kids leave the room, father walks in sees goldfish floating on top of
    bowl, next sound is toilet flushing and then kids voice, hey dad, wait
    til you see what the goldfish can do.....
    
    Next scene is fisherman in lake w/ can of Pepsi and goldfish leaping
    out of the water....

    
    Coming back to the over-feeding.  Lost a few in the beginning due to
    that.  Now we feed only every other (sometimes longer).  I have the
    won't die fish -- one lasted two years.

    I checked the ph balance in my tank, it's too high.  So I'm working on
    reducing it to 7.0.  We betta died last night and the male swordtail
    was acting pretty listless, but today he tried to eat and seems to have
    a little more energy.  We've also decided to turn the aquarium lights
    on from 7:00 pm to 7:00 am, that way they won't be on during the
    hottest part of the day (and when we don't run the airconditioner). 
    Hopefully it will keep the water temp fairly stable, around 76 or so.
    
    Aaron has to say by-by to the fish when we leave in the morning.  He
    really is excited to have them.
    
    sandy

    re .8, overfeeding...
    If you have the right kind of environment you don't need to feed
    them at all.
    
    Every fall we remove fish from our outdoor pond and bring them
    inside for the winter.  We've found that a 10 gallon aquarium
    can easily support several small fish for many months.  Put in a half
    inch of *clean* stone, a *lot* of real plants in separate pots, and
    a light on top. You'll have to feed them a bit for a couple of weeks
    until the plants start growing.  But then you can quit feeding them,
    and you'll not have to clean the bowl either.  Be sure to include
    a few snails.  After several weeks you'll want to thin out the
    plants, as they will start to crowd the fish.  But you can forget
    about a bubbler or filter, as the plants do all the work.
    
    We've found that a couple dozen guppies and three or four small
    goldfish will do quite nicely this way.  Black mollies seem to
    have problems (we suspect they want real sunlight).
    

    I am well aware that the fish I have are not goldfish.  Goldfish are
    supposed to like cooler water from what I have read in my book (yes, I
    actually bought a book when we decided to by a small aquarium and some
    fish so I would have a little bit of an idea of what to do).  My book
    recommended a constant temperature of around 76 - 78 for the fish that
    I had decided to put in the tank, except for the betta's which
    apparently like it cooler.  I unfortunately didn't realize how warm the
    water would get on it's own.  We have an undergravel filter that seems
    to be doing the job, we also have live plants to provide hiding places
    and a little extra oxygen.
    
    Right now I'm concentrating on getting the ph right.  We also have an
    additive to help prevent ick, etc.  Like everything else this will be a
    learning experience (hopefully for Aaron, too).  I'm also trying to
    keep the water temp around 76 or so, through the daytime it's gotten up
    to 80 and that's too warm, that's my primary reason for using the
    lights at night rather than through the day, to try to prevent them
    from heating the water in addition to the room temp.
    
    sandy                    

    re: .12
    
    Are you in Massachusetts?  I'm not sure if I've got the right
    names and places, but recently there was a report that the state (?)
    was treating its water for something which raised the ph level
    a bit.  My husband raises fish and had a difficult time getting
    the ph to what it should be.
    
    Apparently the state didn't think anything of what they were doing
    until they got all these inquiries from tropical fish stores that
    were losing fish.  The announcement was sent out after-the-fact.
    
    It probably doesn't do you much good to know this, but it does
    provide an explanation if you're from MA.
    
    Diana

Sandy,

The Beta's can stand a warm tank .... I've had a few, and a tank with a flakey 
heater, in which the water would fluctuate from ~68-94 degrees.  Thought we'd 
have chowda a few times! (-:  The Betas are actually happiest in a small, cool 
bowl.  They live in rice patties in "the wild" and prefer confined areas.  
A healthy beta tends to hang out, rather listless looking, near the top corner 
of a tank.

You should have to clean a fish bowl (non-filtered) about 1x10 days.  More 
frequently if it's over crowded.  You want to figure about 1 gallon of water, 
per inch of fish.  More than that is over crowded, and can cause a lot of 
other problems.  

Water that looks dirty, is not necessarily a problem for the fish - but it's 
not as pretty to look at.

A lot of "goldfish" for sale, are actually Comets.  As a rule, comets are bred 
as feeder fish.  Which means that they're bred to grow quickly, but not 
necessarily live very long.  They're usually feeders for reptiles.  Of course 
if you luck out and get one to live, they'll get huge.  We had one that lived 
for about 2 years (before I managed to kill off the entire tank (-:), that 
grew to be about 5 inches long, and 2 inches "tall", and would eat any fish 
the size of a neon tetra or smaller -- just a matter of opening his mouth and 
swallowing.  Thing looked more like a carp than a goldfish! (-:

Also, as a rule, you should not mix goldfish with any tropical fish.  Goldfish 
waste is very high in ammonia, which is fatal to tropical fish.  

Rapid water temp changes -- be more concerned about a rapid drop in water 
temp.  "ICK" lives in the water all the time.  When there's a rapid drop in 
water temp (5+ degrees), this causes the ick to hatch, and begin killing your 
fish.  It's most easily noted on darker fish - it takes the form of very small 
white "dots", usually on the sides of the fish body, and frequently in the 
ends of the fin areas.  Medication for ick - and you need to treat the entire 
tank - is usually effective within 24 hours.  For very sick (or ick-y) fish, 
put some tank water in a separate bucket, and add a substantial amount of 
aquarium salt (about the same concentration as a salt-water tank - there are 
directions on the package) remove the very icky fish from the tank, and let 
them have this "salt bath" for ~ 1/2 hour 2-3 times/day.  You should notice a 
marked improvement in 24 hours.  

For any tropical fish, you should always provide a small amount of salt in the 
water (brackish) to help keep disease down.  I'm not sure if this is true for 
goldfish, but I'd guess not.

If you have chlorinated water (such as Nashua does), you should always add 
drops to the water, that remove the chlorine.  Also drops to treat ammonia are 
a good idea, especially if you have goldfish.

The larger the tank, the slower it is to be affected by room temps.  With my 
30 gal tank, even though the room reached ~90 degrees, the tank never exceeded 
80 degrees (well, except when I had the flakey heater).  

An algae eater is a good idea for tanks 10 gals or larger.  The REALLY ugly 
ones seem very sturdy, and do a great job.  Tell a pet store you want one of 
the really ugly kind of algae eaters - they'll know what you mean.  We always 
called ours Oscar, so that may be the type of fish it is?? 

Don't use salt-water shells and that sort of stuff, in a fresh water aquarium. 
There are other chemicals that are released in the water that are toxic to 
fresh water fish.  

Any store that sells fish, should offer a "healthy fish" guarantee, and should 
also be willing to test your fish water.  The guarantee is that your fish will 
stay alive for some amount of time (usually less than a week), or be replaced 
for free.  They usually require that you bring the dead fish, and a sample of 
water from the tank.  

I've heard that in towns where the water is flouridated, the flouride can pose 
problems for the fish -- I have no experience with this.

I've always tried to keep my tanks around 76-78 degrees -- less of them seem 
to die that way.  Drops in temp, below about 73 are quite detrimental to their
health.  Rises in temp, up to ~90 degrees seem to have no affect (though the 
algae sure does grow!!).

We leave the flourescent lights on, from when we get up in the morning, till 
we go to bed at night.  Using flourescent, as opposed to incandescant lights, 
will not change the temp of the water very much.  The incan. lights are much 
cheaper, but I find the flour. easier to work with.

Fish will only eat when it's light.  If you leave them in the dark all the 
time, they will not eat at all, or much at all, no matter how hungry they get
.... Keep this in mind with your light time/feeding time.  If it's light all 
the time, I've found this to be detrimental to their health as well.  My mom 
managed to wipe out all in a 10-gallon tank inside of 4 days, because she 
refused to shut out the light.  She did that twice before she decided it was 
an expensive night light, and now "puts them to bed" at night.

Live plants can introduce a whole new set of complications -- I personally 
avoided them for their more consistent, plastic counterparts.
    
Depending on the type of filter you're using, you need to be careful changing 
it.  I personally prefer an external filter that hangs on the back of the 
tank.  The "moss" is a plastic sponge, and there is a bag of charcoal, and an 
optional bag to remove ammonia.  This is known as a biological filter, in 
which the tank and filter provide consistent and proper levels of bacteria, to 
"acclimate" the water the way the fish like it best.  You should never 
completely change a bio-filter, all at once.  You're supposed to replace 1 
piece, and rinse the other, alternating the replaceable parts (1 month replace 
the carbon, rinse the sponge, the next month vice versa).  This keeps the 
water fairly stable.  

If you notice any type of "moss" growing on the bottom of your tank - looks a 
lot like cotton balls - this is from extra food, going "moldy".  Either you're 
overfeeding, or the fish don't like what they're getting and won't eat it.  
I've had finicky fish before, if you can believe it.  Sigh.  It's important to 
know your fish, whether they're top or bottom feeders, and what type of food 
best meets their needs.  My fish wouldn't touch the flake food unless it was 
squooshed up into tiny pieces.  They wouldn't touch a bit of it once it hit 
the bottom of the tank (that's when the goldfish was helpful!)

That's all the time I have for now .... lots to learn!!  The most important 
thing I learned was -- buy the cheap fish! (-:

-Patty

    The ugly Algae eating fish is a Pleco (Plecostumus (sp?) is the full
    name).  
    
    Neon Tetras are not very hardy fish.  With a new tank, the break in
    period can run for several weeks to a month or more.  Swordtails are
    pretty hardy so yours may survive the initial break in period.  Don't
    change the water - the tank HAS to cycle.  It will probably get cloudy
    for awhile - this too will clear.
    
    Your live plants may not survive either.  I haven't had any luck with
    live plants - either the fish eat them or they die on their own.  They
    require very specific water conditions depending on the variety. 
    Plastic plants are fine for the fish to hide in and look very realistic
    these days.
    
    Don't add any more fish to your tank until your pH has stabilized.  You
    should also test for ammonia and nitrates (or nitrites - ones good the
    other bad).  Once all is in the acceptable range, you can add more
    fish.
    
    The FISH file really has alot of good information - you should check it
    out.
    
    Linda

    Thanks for the pointers and advice.
    
    Here's my goldfish saga for the record.
    
    As mentioned, there was a warranty on the initial two, and they
    waived the "bring 'em in" when I pointed out that my kids would
    hysterical in the store.  Monday night we got the two new ones.
    Tuesday pm, one of the new ones bit the dust.
    
    Now, we have one.  I put the tank in the basement as recommended
    here (the house definitely gets hot during the day) and so far,
    so good.
    
    It's been quite an experience.  I raised horses as a kid with MUCH
    less trouble.  :-)
    
    Thanks again all,
    Tara
    

>           <<< Note 1159.16 by TERSE::PANGAKIS "Tara DTN 227-3781" >>>
>                                -< Fish story >-

    I've killed goldfish by changing the water temperature too much
    by using water that was too warm when changing the water.

    generally no other fish can survive with goldfish, as the goldfish
    are very 'dirty' and covered with a slime that other fish can't
    stand.  

    When I fed them pelleted feed, I could not keep the water from
    getting cloudy no matter how little I used.  I switched to flaked
    goldfish food and have had no clouding problems.
    bob

    I seem to remember that the correct amount to feed goldfish is just
    enough so that they have finished ALL in five minutes, if there is any
    left after that time it is too much. And once a week no to feed at all
    for a day so as to make the fish clean up any that is left around. I
    had goldfish in a tank with a filter and only totally cleaned the tank
    out once every six months or so. 
    
    Tracey
    
    My fish lived for years

>    I seem to remember that the correct amount to feed goldfish is just
>    enough so that they have finished ALL in five minutes, if there is any
>    left after that time it is too much. 

    I wish I had a little device that could diable the filter for about 5
    minutes...So I could shut off the filter temporarily after feeding.

>    And once a week no to feed at all
>    for a day so as to make the fish clean up any that is left around. 

    great idea...

    I think they can live a long time with no food...they will just keep
    eating their poop for quite a while.

>    I wish I had a little device that could diable the filter for about 5
>    minutes...So I could shut off the filter temporarily after feeding.

You could buy a timer, and plug the filter into the timer ... most hardware 
stores should sell what you need usually in the outdoor lighting section.