Conference moira::parenting

    
    I wondered about that too. Her formula gives her everything,
    except the fluoride........
     
    

  *** Warning *** ... long winded personal opinion approaching fast... :-)
   
   I haven't looked into formula at all so believe it or not, I have
   no opinion on that, but I will comment on food in general.
   
   o Be careful when you approach the medical profession about
     nutrition.  It is my understanding that some professionals are
     well educated in that aspect of health, and some are not.  
   
   o There are at least 2 opposing views of nutrition that you will
     probably run into.  
   
     There are those who do *not* believe that food you buy in the
     store can ever possibly give you all the nutrition you really
     need - due to storage time and extreme processing mostly.  
   
     And there are those people who believe that if you eat a
     "balanced" meal, you will get all the nutrition you need, and
     that vitamins don't do much more than give you healthy urine.
   
   o Further, I have heard some professionals claim that children will
     crave those foods that will give them what they are lacking for
     nutritional value.  They also state that over time (a few days or
     so) kids will tend to eat enough of a balance to get all the
     pieces they need.  That is, that we should not try to measure
     what kids eat based on a single day, but over time.
   

   All that said, here's how I feel about it...
   
   o I do believe that kids will eat a "balanced" meal over the course
     of a few days.  From personal observation, this seems to work out
     well.
   
   o However, I fall into the first group of people who believe that
     food is, well, nutritionally barren, so even eating a balanced
     meal won't give you what you think it does.  I do not believe
     that store bought food has enough nutritional value left in it by
     the time we get it to  provide the body with all the vitamins it
     really needs.
   
   o To back up a step with this - I also do not accept the gov't
     minimum RDA values for vitamins.  I haven't confirmed this, but I
     believe those numbers were designed to keep people from getting
     sick from mal-nutrition, not to keep them operating at optimum
     performance mentally and physically.  
   
     I said that to get to this point - I believe, especially given
     the stress that most people have to deal with on a "normal" day,
     that the gov't RDA numbers are way too low.  That people would
     still not get enough to maintain proper health if they stuck
     strictly to those numbers.

   So what does this mean....
   
   Well, I believe that unless you are doing some serious organic
   farming you probably won't get enough vitamins and stuff from the
   food you eat.  I believe that vitamin/mineral supplements are
   necessary for normal operation.
   
   While its not appropriate to make medical claims about vitamins...
   that is, I can't say "Taking extra Vitamin 'Q' will cure your
   terminal case of hang-nail", I can tell you what I have observed in
   myself...
   
   I have found that I have more stamina, I can stay up later, and I
   have a *much* better attitude when I take my vitamins regularly.
   This may not be true for you or your kids, but it is definately
   true for me.
   
   ( Before you start to think that this is psychosomatic, let me tell
   you something about me ... I am a serious skeptic when it comes to
   stuff like this.  However, looking back over days and weeks, I have
   discovered there is a positive correlation to when I have forgotten
   to take them and when I am a serious grouch who needs too much
   sleep.)
   
   So... to answer your question... I believe children, in general,
   will benefit from some sort of vitamin supplement once they get on
   regular food.  I don't know, this may be true about formula as
   well, but I never looked at it.

   Good luck, this can be a difficult question to get enough facts to
   be comfortable about your decision....
   
   Peace,
   
   - Tom
   

    
>    I wondered about that too. Her formula gives her everything,
>    except the fluoride........
     

    Well, if your using tap water to make the formula, and it comes from
    town water, then I'm sure she's getting the fluoride. You can call
    your water department to be sure.    

New Hampshire towns don't add fluoride to the water - even town water - so call 
and ask if you really want to know.

    Re  .0 
    Hello Kristen,
    I saw in the previous note 155.0 that your child is 4.5 mths old.
    My son Ray is 4mths old.
    
    I too am concerned about the vitamin issue. 
    The previous note that was for vitamins (getting into the RDA and the
    'craving' directing the diet, and healthy urine,....)  seems to be
     speaking towards older children...  I think.
    
    My questions would be in regard to the 'infants' digestive system, and
    their unique nutritional requirements...  
    Your probably at the same point I'm at;  starting to introduce solid
    foods, little by little, and decreasing the amount of the 'liquid
    diet'.  
    
    We were not given any vitamins at Ray's 2 mth check up.
    
    I've got Ray's 4 mth check-up with the pediatrician tomorrow... 
    I plan on specifically asking these questions and will post any
    relevant answers here.
    
    /peter
           

>   o Further, I have heard some professionals claim that children will
>     crave those foods that will give them what they are lacking for
>     nutritional value.  

Awwww c'mon.  According to this theory, most kids I know must be lacking the 
ingredients in candy, ice cream, soda (tonic to some of you), and Happy Meals.

Clay

    Yeah,
    My Pedi was NOT for the vitamins... at least for the 'infant'.
    She stated if I pushed she would write me a pescription... but
    (as stated as an opinion in a previous note) that this would 
    just give my child healthy urine.
    
    As my child grows, I should base the decision on my own common
    sense understanding of what is a good, well rounded diet, and
    supplementing if, for whatever reason, my child isn't getting
    one.
    
    Makes sense to me.
    
    /p

    My pedi also did not believe in vitamins for infants - except when the
    infant was exclusively breastfed - then he would prescribe vitamin drops
    with iron.

    This didn't make any sense to me at all.  I nursed Michelle until she was
    7 months old, and for the entire time I continued to take my prenatal
    vitamins that contained mega-doses of every vitamin known to man.  My pedi
    knew I was taking pregnancy vitamins and still felt that I needed to
    suplement Michelle's dayly diet with vitamins.  Personally I thought it
    was ludicrous to assume that God and Mother Nature's invention (breast-milk)
    was inferior to man-made formula - so I ignored his recommendation.

    Do any of you noters with medical and nutrition expertise have a reasonable
    explanation for why vitamin suplements would be recommended only for
    breast-fed babies?  I should add that this pediatrician was moderately
    pro-breast-feeding.  He told me at our first visit that he "preferred to
    see his moms nurse their babies for a least the first 6 weeks if at all
    possible"

    My wife is in her second pregnancy overseas and can't get hold of US style
    pregnancy vitaminsm, but does have vitamins with RDA dose percentages
    specified.
    
    The question is, does anyone know how RDA doses for non-pregnant people
    compare with those recommended for pregnant women?  She's particularly
    worried about vitmins A and D.
    
    Best of all, if anyone has any pregnancy vitamins, could they post the
    quantities of each vitamin here?
    
    Thanks...        

    Hi,
    
    I just happen to have a bottle of Natalins with me, and here is what
    is listed on the label:
    
    Vitamins:
    A, IU . . . . . . . . 4,000
    D, IU . . . . . . . . . 400
    E, IU . . . . . . . . .  15
    C (ascorbic acid) mg. .  80
    Folic acid mg.  . . . . . 1
    Thiamin (B1)mg. . . . . . 1.5
    Riboflavin (B2)mg.. . . . 1.6
    Niacin, mg. . . . . . .  17
    B6 mg.. . . . . . . . . . 4
    B12 mg. . . . . . . . . . 2.5
    Biotin mg . . . . . . . . 0.03
    Pantothenic acid, mg  . . 7
    
    Minerals:
    Calcium, mg . . . . . . 200
    Iron, mg  . . . . . . .  60
    Magnesium, mg . . . . . 100
    Copper, mg  . . . . . .   3
    Zinc, mg . . . . . . . . 25
    
    Active Ingredient: Each tablet contains 1 mg folic acid.  Other
    ingredients:  Acacia, biotin, calcium carbonate, cacium pantothenate,
    beta carotine, cholecalciferol, collodial silicon dioxide, cupric
    oxide, cupric oxide, cyanocobalamin, ferrous fumarate, hydroxypropyl
    cellulose, magnesium hydroxide, magnesium stearate, niacinamide,
    polacrilin potassium, ppolyethylene glycol, povidone, pyridoxine
    hydrochloride, riboflavin, sodium ascorbate, thiamine mononitrate,
    titanium dioxide, di-alpha-tocopheryl acetate, vitamin A acetate,
    vitamin A acetate, zinc oxide.
    

    
    I know folic acid i importnta, as it encourages cell reproduction.
    
    Takl to your OB, or Pharmacist, about the contents.
    
    Jamd

	Couldn't find another spot for this...

	Emily had her iron tested at her 1 year check up, and was put
	on an iron supplement.

	She's supposed to take 2.4 ml of the supplement each day.
	The supplement says that .6 ml supplies 100% of the RDA for
	infants.  Does the dosage recommended by her pedi seem high ?

	The iron is not totally constipating her, but is giving her difficulty
	where she previously had none.

	(I will follow up with a call to her pedi, but was curious what 
	other parents' experiences have been with this).

	Karen

>        She's supposed to take 2.4 ml of the supplement each day.
>        The supplement says that .6 ml supplies 100% of the RDA for
>        infants.  Does the dosage recommended by her pedi seem high ?

The doctor is treating an iron deficiency.  The rda is based on maintenance
dosage (not to mention that if she is getting iron from her diet too you
technically need less still).  Theraputic dosages of most deficiencies
are higher than maintenance.  So, the 2.4 ml does make sense ... but if it is
causing bm problems maybe a slightly lower dose would be better.

Stuart

	Thanks, Stuart!!

	Karen

   Or maybe a slight adjustment in diet for the duration of the
   maintenance dosage to add more "loosening" foods into the works...
   
   - Tom

    For constipation some options are:
    
    o  Lots of fluids, such as fruit juices.
    o  Stewed prunes.
    o  Metamucil wafers, taste like cookies.  Ask your doctor first before
    trying this option.
    
    Laura
    

    Hi

    First of all I believe in taking vitamins and have been taking them
    all my life - the basic one-day or centrum.  I recently started my
    2 year old on a one-day for children as well.  At my sons recent
    2yr check up I had to fill out a form and it asked does he get
    flouride supplement.  I said no.  Well the nurse said that 'he
    doesn't need the vitamins, but he needs the flouride."

    I now have prescription for flouride  $5 buys me a 30 day dose.
    Does anyone else give their children these pills?  What good is flouride?
    for your teeth?  We saw the nurse practioner not the dr. so I
    wasn't able to get his opinion.

    Any ideas?
    Lynne

    

    
    If you do not have flouridated water than your child probably
    does need flouride.   You'll might get more info from your
    dentist than your doctor; since the flouride is for their teeth.
    
    At my son's last checkup, his doctor said there is some new
    information about the timing (i.e. when to start an infant)
    and dosage of flouride supplements.  She said that there are
    some indications that kids are now getting too much flouride
    (which is not good for the teeth).
    
    Your child might not "need" the vitamins; but they probably
    won't hurt.
    
    cj/  
    

    When I was a kid, we didn't have flouridated water.  I have *tons* of
    cavities, a few crowns, and have spent a fortune on my teeth.  I
    consider flouride essential for my kids' teeth.
    
    When my daughter was an infant (she's nearly 4-1/2 now), they started
    vitamins with flouride drops at 2 weeks. We probably gave them to her
    about half the time--she really hated them and they were a hassle to
    administer.  Once she started with chewable vitamins, we have been more
    consistent about giving them to her.
    
    My son is 4 months, and the pedi just gave us the prescription last
    week.  We got it filled on Tuesday, but this has been my first week
    back and I haven't gotten my act together enough to see how he'll take
    them.  The doctor did mention that study about being over flouridated. 
    Perhaps our approach with our daughter may have been the better one,
    just as a coincidence.
    
    judy

    I've been giving my kids fluoride since they came home from the
    hospital. When they were babies, we put 1 or 2 drops [we alternated
    days] in their formula per day. Now that they are 3, the latest
    prescription says to give 4 drops 5 days a week, so I average it out to
    3 drops per day, and they get it in their morning juice.  I didn't know
    you could get pills for fluoride. I get a little bottle that lasts
    about 6 months for both kids. Since we have well water, there's no
    fluoride in it.
    

    Hmm, we don't have fluoridated water, and I have never been given
    fluoride for my son.  He's almost 5.  But he did have a fluoride
    treatment on his teeth last time he went to the dentist.  I wonder if
    one is a substitute for the other? He goes back to the dentist again
    next week, I'll see what he thinks.  
    Sarah

    My son (now 6) also takes the flouride pills (when we remember
    to refill the prescription!).   But, as noted ealier, he is 
    now on a lower dose due the new findings that kids are being
    over flouridated.
    
    Check with the pharmacist about the cost, tho ...we have never
    paid for them using our insurance since it's always been cheaper
    without!  We paid under $5.00 and it lasts a lot longer than
    the 30 days.  I think using your insurance, they can only give
    you 30 days worth at a time.  (we have healthsource).
    
    Nancy

    It's definitely a substitute.  Towns that have flouridated water, they
    don't prescribe flouride pills for.
    
    Every time I go "Do you live in Nashua?" {un-flouridated water} "Yes"
    "Do you need a renewal for your flouride prescription?"
    
    Patty

    
    Also check with your pharmarcy and make sure that the pills
    are not sweetened with artificial sweeteners. I have been buying
    the CVS store brand and they use regular sugar. This applies
    to vitamins, too, that's is if you are concerned about artificial
    junk.
    
    
    Eva

    You can also get "flouride" tablets with Vitamins so my son gets both
    in one tablet. 

   I'll probably ruffle a few feathers with this, but this is all my
   opinion, so here goes...
   
   IMO, there are 2 major schools of thought on vitamins - 
   
   A) one says if you eat well enough you will (nearly) never need 
      vitamins, 
   
   B) and the other says that no matter what you eat, you will usually
      (or sometimes) need a supplement anyway.  
   
   When it comes to medical folks, its my opinion that that you won't get
   reasonable advice on vitamins if they belong to the first group.
   People in Group-A seem to have blinders on when it comes to vitamins,
   unless of course you show obvious signs of some deficiency, which
   almost noone does.  
   
   IMO, if you are serious about vitamins, and you believe (wonder
   whether) you need them, find someone who understands vitamins and
   nutrition to talk with.  These people at least will understand what
   you generally need, and can give you advice tempered with
   understanding.
   
   your mileage may vary,
   
   - Tom

But people in group B also have blinders on.

FWIW, I think you'll have a hard time finding a doctor who won't at least
recommend folic acid for pregnant women (and those trying to become pregnant).

   Gerald,
   
   re: blinders... true.  There are overzealous supporters on both sides
   of the discussion.  I guess balance and moderation is called for here
   too..
   
   re: folic acid...  yep.
   
   - Tom

>   IMO, there are 2 major schools of thought on vitamins - 
   
>   A) one says if you eat well enough you will (nearly) never need 
>      vitamins, 

Tom, I think that there is a third school, or perhaps a variant of A).  I 
would put our first pediatrician in it.  After saying (A), he said, "... but 
they can't do you any harm, unless you get into the megavitamin dosage 
levels, so if it makes you feel better, then go ahead and take them."  He did 
give us, as I recall, a prescription for a vitamin supplement with fluoride 
when our kids were infants, but I don't remember how long they took it; it 
wasn't long.

re: .24

Sorry, but I can't help chuckling at the thought of cavity-inducing sugar 
being included in cavity-fighting fluoride supplements.   ;^)  But since you 
bring it up, if you have that concern, note that sodium saccharine (sp?) is a 
very common ingredient in toothpaste.

Clay

You're not supposed to swallow toothpaste.

>You're not supposed to swallow toothpaste.

Right on.  But I bet every kid has at some time; in fact I think I remember 
it coming up in this notesfile as a problem.

Clay

My son is now 15 months. We have a well and since birth his pediatrician has
prescribed liquid vitamins/fluoride.  At his 15 month check-up this week I
asked his pedi how long Alex should take the vitamins and he said til he is 2.
If I don't think he is eating a balanced diet once he's 2, I'll probably continue
the suppliments.  I will definitely continue the flouride.

    
    My reason for giving Neel (2yrs 5 months) vitamins with flouride is
    that kids don't always eat a balanced meal (read veggies). I try my
    best to make sure they get a balance meal but Neel will sometimes eat
    everything but the veggies and at other times just veggies. So at least
    until the time that he does not eat a semi-balanced meal the vitamins
    are my way of making sure he gets from vitamins what he missed in his
    meals.
    
    Avanti (5 yrs) eats everything and she does not get vitamin "enriched"
    flouride.
    
    Shaila

    
    re. 29
    
    There are toothpastes, eg. Tom's of Maine, that do not have
    saccharin and that is what my family uses.
    
    I don't see why fluride pills shouldn't have sugar in it.
    It is not a teeth cleaner ;-);-) 
    
    
    Eva

   re: Clay,
   
   3rd school (they can't hurt) - true, I hadn't thought about that...
   but then you probably wouldn't get much support in the way of advise
   or suggestions from someone who has that opinion.  I guess it depends
   on whether you need/want someone to be a partner (and maybe mentor) to
   you in the area of nutrition, or just someone who will support your
   position when it comes to things like prescriptions.

   re: balanced meals... I don't know our pedi's position on vitamin
   supplements - my wife is usually the one taking the kids in and I've
   never asked them about it, but I recall one comment my wife relayed to
   me regarding this... its not crucial that the "balanced meal" happen
   all in one day - its the bigger picture that counts in this case...
   that is, over a few days or a week.  If the child *never* eats
   veggies, that's something to be concerned about, but if, over the
   course of a whole week, they get a good balance, then you need not be
   as concerned.
   
   fwiw,

   - Tom

    re: some back....
    
    we have Harvard HMO, we get a prescription for 100 flouride pills [my
    kids now swallow them but they are chewables, they're only as big as
    saccharine tablets] and they now cost ~$3.69.  the CVS near us doesn't
    put them under the co-pay category as we'd only be able to get 30 days
    worth, and it'd cost us $3 for that --we get 100 for a few pennies
    more.
    
    I do need to ask the dentist next week if my kids still need the
    supplement as they will both be getting fluoride rinses at school [ i
    think it goes from oct-may].  My youngest has been getting the
    treatment at the dentist every 6 months, but if she's able to get it in
    school -- for free, no less -- i don't think it'll be necessary at
    check-up time.
    
    sandy

	re: balanced meals

	I have heard that from the pedi too. It is not crucial for kids to eat a
balanced meal everyday. It was just my concern and my choice to supplement with
vitamins. The pedi did not even suggest them and when I asked she told me that
they were not necessary but if I was concerned an preferred vitamins then she
would give us the prescription.

	It all boils down to choice, I guess.

>>   <<< Note 156.30 by NOTIME::SACKS "Gerald Sacks ZKO2-3/N30 DTN:381-2085" >>>
>>
>>You're not supposed to swallow toothpaste.

Right,  my dentist said that swallow toothpaste is one of the problems
leading to kids getting too mush floride so now some (all?) of the tooth
paste companies have reduced the amount of floride in the toothpaste.

I grew up without floride in my water and didn't take *ANY* vitamins until
I was probably around 20.  I only got 2 cavities and I got those around 26.

Garry

    I give my 22 mos old vitamin drops with Flouride as well because I
    trust the advice of his pedi. 
    
    But I do wonder how necessary vitamins are. I would assume they would
    be more necessary for kids who are "picky eaters" and who don't eat
    balanced meals.
    
    When I was growing up, my brothers and I never took vitamins or
    Flouride tablets, and were hardly ever sick and we all have good teeth.
    We did go to the dentist every 6 mos from the time we were very young.
    My mother was (is) a nurse practitioner and does not believe in vitamins
    if you eat a balanced diet most of the time. 
    
    Karen 

	I have a question about Iron supplements for children over 1yr of age.
	I read an article in "American Baby" Oct 1994 that basically said
	that children over 1yr old who are drinking cows milk need an Iron
	supplement.  

	Kristen is 18months old and does NOT get an iron supplement. I know
	she was tested at 12months for anemia and was fine.  Is this why
	the doctor didn't prescribe it?  Is being tested once a year frequent
	enough?

	If she does have an iron deficiency now, how would I know?  What are
	the signs?  Also, what are the ill effects of having an iron deficiency?
	The article mentioned deficits in intelligence and developement, so
	this is what concerns me.  Although she seems right on track both in
	intelligence and developement.  Even ahead in some areas (but that's
	a proud mom's opinion)

	I have a call into the doctor, but thought I'd ask here too. 	
	Thanks,
	Karen T.

    
    Karen
    
    Nicholas just had his 9mos check up, and they did the blood test for
    Iron defeciency. He is now on a supplement because it was borderline
    low.
    
    Anyways, the way his Dr could tell, was looking at his feet. He said
    the soles of his feet should be "pink" in color, not "yellowish". Thats
    something you might want to look at?
    
    Anne Marie
    

    Since you require iron to properly carry oxygen in the blood, I think
    that symptoms of iron deficiency would be similar to 'not breathing' or
    what you might associate with insufficient oxygen.  Tired, listless,
    pale etc.
    
    I do know that it takes a long time to build up iron again in the body. 
    I was tested when pregnant, and they wouldn't retest for 3 mos because
    they said I wouldn't have the 'chance' to make up the difference any
    sooner than that.
    
    I would imagine that with children, and the amount of mental
    development going on, it's that much more critical to be sure you're
    getting a Great oxygen supply to the brain to maintain alertness and
    acuity ...
    
    Patty

    My younger son was borderline iron deficient at his 12 month, 15 month
    and 18 month blood checks. We had him on an iron supplement for a
    while but there were so restrictions with it (shouldn't take iron
    with milk products, needs to be taken with food in case of stomach
    cramping etc.) that after a while we just tried to focus on more
    foods that contained iron instead.
    
    Unless a child is extremely iron deficient, I wouldn't go through
    this again personally.
    
    Lynn
    

    
    	Iron is one of those things where you need "just enough".  Too
    little prevents kids from growing properly.  Too much prevents kids
    from gaining weight.  Argh!  
    	I've always been border-line anemic, so it seemed natural to give
    my toddler a multi-vitamin "with iron".  But he has always been thin for
    his height, so when I saw the study that too much was bad (about 6 mos
    ago), I switched hime to a multi-vitamin with no iron.  Since then he
    has gained weight much faster.  (He's now 2.5)  Perhaps it's a
    coincidence.  But if your kids get "enough" iron from their food (most 
    American kids do), then an iron supplement probably isn't necessary.  
    
    Elaine
                                                              

In some people, too much iron also causes constipation.

Clay

	and in some few people, it has the opposite affect !

    Not sure if this questions belongs in a "hair" topic or a "vitamin"
    topic, but didn't want to start a new topic, so..
    
    A couple of weeks ago, I was braiding my daughter's (9) hair into tiny
    braids.  She wanted a crimped look for the next day, and braiding is
    the easiest way to do this.
    
    Anyway, as I was braiding her hair, I noticed several white hairs.  I
    didn't want to comment at the time because she is already nervous 
    about her appearance -- we have to look just right, you know.
    
    A week later, getting my own hair done, I mentioned the oddity
    of the white hairs to my hairdresser.  I thought she'd just chuckle
    about it, but instead she mentioned that I should look into a vitamin
    B6 deficiency.
    
    Before jumping to conclusions, I'm going to mention it to the
    pediatrician at our next appointment -- needs a physical for camp.
    I also thought that maybe someone in the noting community may have
    heard of this symptom of vitamin deficiency.
    
    Has anyone encountered this before?  Do you know other symptoms
    of vitamin B6 deficiency?
    
    Thanks for any info...
    Diana

It won't hurt to start giving her a kid's vitamin each day, too, while
you're checking it out.

We use the Flintstones ones.  They are reasonably soft (many are HARD!)
and the kids like the taste.

      Carol