Conference moira::parenting

    
    Don't ever, EvEr, EVER do what I've seen parents do when coming out of
    the doctors office: "Oh, did that doctor hurt you?!"  
    
    Chris D.

    Just have your husband take the kid to the doctors.  Marriage is a 
    partnership where you draw on each other skills and strengths.  Maybe
    he has a higher tolerence in this case.
    
    In our case we both went since we has twins!

    With my daughter (who is now 2) each sucessive shot got better.  
    Translated: She cried less, and I felt less guilty.
    
    My pediatrician advised me to give her tempra (the brand of baby
    aspirin we use) *before* the shot.  (I think an hour before, but I
    can't remember.)  That way, she said the shot would hurt less.
    
    As the baby gets older, and has loveys, that helps.  Take along a
    bottle, binky, breast, or whatever, and try to calm the baby down in
    the examining room.  You shouldn't try to rush out of there until both
    of you are calm.  Does singing help?  Or rocking?  You know your baby
    and what generally calms him/her.  Use it then.  
    
    I always had to do the shots.  My husband just couldn't bear to be
    there.  If your husband would be better, by all means, have him do it. 
    The baby needs the parent who can help the most.
    
    judy
    
    

    
    I thought it was funny when I was taking my son for his second set of
    shots, the nurse said "sign here, where the parent signs,"...then she
    told me that actually there was a bigger ratio of men than women who
    bring their kids in for their shots.  Guess it hurts the Moms too much
    to watch.
    
    I didn't have any choice in the matter the first 2 times, my husband
    couldn't be there, but this last time, he came with me, and I kind of
    stood off to the side of the room until it was all over, (but came
    running over to hold him when it was done). 
    
    I always bring the Tylenol with me , and give it to him right
    afterwards out in the waitig room before we put our coats on.
    
    Be prepared, I found Michael to be more aware of the pain as the months
    went on. 2 mos shots weren't bad at all, 4 mos shots he seemed a bit 
    sore, but 6 mos shots he was "miserable" all night long. You could
    tell before the tylenol would kick in that they must of really been
    "throbbing".  I felt SO BAD for him...
    
    Chris
    

    My doctor told me not to give my son tylenol after his shots.  He
    said if I gave him tylenol, he would not be able to tell if he had a
    reaction to them.  (fever, etc.)
    
    He never did have a reaction, just a little cranky.
    
    Donna
    
    
    P.S.  I hate when my son has to get shots, but I just hold him in my
    arms afterwards (even if it's all day) and soothe him and rock him and
    kiss him and sing to him.  Makes me feel alot better...hope it works
    for him.
    
    

    I think the biggest factor is how calm *you* are.  My kids have never
    cried more than 30 seconds after having the shot(s), and I think that's
    largely because I am very calm and accepting of the whole process.  (Not
    to say I'm *always* calm - just that shots don't bother me!)  I think
    the best way to make the experience easier for your child is to figure
    out how to relax yourself - a half a glass of wine before going to
    the appointment, perhaps?  Or, as you've mentioned, having someone
    who's more calm about it hold the child?
    
				cheryl

    My pedi recommended that that I give my son tylenol 1 hour before his
    shots.  That is what I have always done, and have had no problems with
    doing so.  The last time for his 18 month shots, he didn't even cry. 
    He watched them give him the shots and didn't make a pep.

    I think as with alot of things, all doctors will tell you something
    different.  I found that I do what works the best for me and our
    situation.

    I hate taking my son for his shots, but I don't have a choice, my
    husband is out of town alot.

    The first time I took him for the shots, I ended up crying and when I
    came out of the examining room I was perspiring profusely.  I don't
    think I will ever forget that experience.  I think I was in worse shape
    then he was.
    
    Kathy

I usually take my kids for their shots.  Jessica is much worse than 
Brad and seems to cry forever after a shot.  I usually pick her right 
up, rub the shot area to help the shot disperse and relieve some of the
soreness (that has always worked when I got shots, and I got lots of
shots while trying to conceive them), and cuddle her in my arms.  She
usually calms down within 10-15 minutes. Brad,on the other hand, just
about notices the shots (I think he's just used to people sticking him)
and only cries a bit sometime during the actual shot, but typically
stops crying as soon as the needle gets pulled out.  I cuddle him and
rub the shot location anyhow as he's a born cuddler and just loves it.
With him, if he's extra fussy, I also give him a bottle.  That boy 
would sell his soul for a bottle/food, so that always calms him right
down.

Wait til they have to draw blood.  That's the one I hate, but it's
necessary.

Cathy

    My pedi has a nurse administer the shot, so the pedi retains her "good
    guy" status.  Too bad anybody has to take the heat for administering
    pain... but I think it's a good system, as it keeps my daughter's trust 
    in her doctor intact.
    
    Leslie

My daughter, Sarah, is due to have her 4 month shots this Saturday.  I
am already a nervous wreck thinking about it.  I cannot stand to see her
cry so I wait in the waiting room until it is over.  My husband has a 
higher tolerance than I do and always goes with me when this time comes 
around.  
    
    My daughter did not have a reaction to the shots the first time around
    and did not even run a fever.  Can I expect the same kind of reaction
    the second time around?  I give my daughter Tempra 30 minutes before
    she receives her shots and this seems to relieve the pain somewhat. I
    guess there is no way to relax before the baby receives the shots.  I
    find myself worrying more about the reaction and side-effects to these
    shots more than anything. 
    
    

    
    The nurse gives the shots at our Pedi's office also.  She 
    usually gives us a sample bottle of Tempura and we give
    it to Ryan right after his shots.  
    
    The first thing to keep in mind is, that you would rather see
    the child hurt a little bit from a shot, then to contract
    the disease that the shot is preventing.
    
    It's worth it in the long run.   I know of a few folks that
    have chosen not to imunize their children.  But that is another
    subject.
    
    Jeanne  
    
    
    

    Also, make sure if your child is to get more than one shot, the one
    that hurts "less" be given first.  Jackie has never much been bothered
    by the DPT shots, but the MMR shot at 15 months really hurt, and they
    gave that one to her first.  She really balked at the second shot
    (which she never did before with DPT and the HIB shots).
    
    Mary
    

    Re:  Giving the baby a bottle after the shot.  I don't think you are
    allowed to give the baby anything to drink for at least a half an hour
    after since they are also given polio vaccine and you don't want the
    baby to throw up.
    
    Re:  Being calm.  I agree with the noter who said remaining calm helps
    the child. I have always tried to be calm and both my daughters seem to
    stop crying by the time we get out of the examining room.
    
    Angie

    Well, I took my 5 year old in for his physical and he needed the
    booster.  Try to explain to a 5 year old why he needs a shot and the
    whole deal.  It is very heard because they know it will hurt and they
    can not be distracted.
    
    Well, he let the nurse do it, he cried and cuddled me, and after awhile
    he let me take him home.  He was OK, until the soreness crept in.  He
    was miserable for the rest of the evening and all the next day. 
    Luckily, kids forget quickly!  I think he forgave me/us!  I told him he
    wouldn't need another until Junior High!!  He was pleased!
    
    -sandy
    

That first shot really is the hardest to take.  I found that the ordeal became
less trumatic (for me, that is) over time.  I don't think I cried at all by
the third time around ;-)

- Carol  

Re .13

We didn't have to worry about vomitting up the polio vaccine since I had
requested that they not use the oral vaccine and instead use the 
intramuscular shot.  In some cases such as ours, having the oral vaccine
is worse than going through letting the baby get an additional shot. 
In our case, we had 1 twin home and 1 still in the NICU, so if we had
allowed Jessica to get the polio orally (it's a live vaccine), we would
not have been able to take her with us to see Brad since she would not
have been allowed in the NICU due to the possibility of exposing Brad
and all the other babies in the NICU to a live polio virus.  And when
Brad was finally out of the NICU, but on a regular pediatric floor and
had had 1 polio shot, we still had to have Jessica get the intrmuscular
polio shot because my parents were caring for her so that we could
go in to see Brad every night.  Since they are in their 70's, they never
got polio immunizations, so also would have been susceptible to the live
virus when they changed her diapers since it passes through the stools.
Other people who cannot be exposed to the live virus include those that
may be undergoing chemotherapy and bone-marrow transplants since their
immune systems are effected by such treatment.

In cases like these, I'd much rather have the baby get an additional
shot than take the chance of having someone contract polio.

    I don't have a problem watching my daughter recieve shots, but can
    sympathize with those who do.  My case was after watching so many
    invasive treatments, shots were nothing to get excited over. Shannon
    has never receive any oral vaccine (which is good cuz she spits out
    anything that tastes different from her food).
    
    I question why people give medicine "in case" of a reaction.  I don't
    take medicine unless I am sick, why treat someone who doesn't require
    treatment??
    
    -beth

    re:  two shots at the same visit...
    
    The nurses at our pedi's pffice will administer two shots at the same
    time.  One on each side - one needle in each arm synchronized so there
    is really only one "pain episode".  Worked for us!
    
    -sandy
    

Don't have time to read all the replies in this note (today), but will
another day.

In the meantime, I'd like to say that Juli had a pretty good reaction to
her "first" batch of vaccinations  (fever, screaming, nauseausness).  About
2-3 hours after the shots, I called the Pedi on the phone.  He heard Juli
screaming in the background.  He said it sounded like she had a "leg cramp"
(I guess they can happen if the kid jerks its leg when the needle is
inserted).  Anyways, we were told to give her tylenol and call him back
in an hour or so ... It took Juli several hours to calm down (get rid of the
cramp??? and for the tylenol to kick in) -- and I think she just plain cried
herself to exhaustion.

AFTER THAT ENDEAVOR!, the Pedi nurse suggested that we give Juli a dose or
two of tylenol PRIOR to her scheduled shots!  Never had another reaction.
Not sure if the tylenol worked, Juli's system could handle the vaccinations
better or we never experienced another leg cramp.

I'll probably always give her a "minimum" of one dose of tylenol just prior
to her appointment.

Dottie

    
    I recall from my previous life when I was a student nurse in the Pedi
    ward that Band-Aids go a l-o-n-g way towards making things better
    quickly. We used to have to give little ones shots fairly frequently
    and from an early age (18 mos or so) Band-Aids seemed to have a "magic"
    effect even if it was just a small one.  It seemed to serve as a
    physical symbol of recognition that the child had suffered an injury.
    They used to show it to their parents and nursing staff and tell them 
    'that's where I had my shot'. Invariably the shot was 'better' by the
    next day and we could take the Band-Aid off.  It worked for most kids. 
    I used to keep a pocked full of Band-Aids just in case.
    
    I don't know any tips for making it better for the parents!
    
    LaDonna

I heard a similar story.  The case was one of these giant polio innoculations
of the 50s/60s. The first kid gets a shot and starts screaming and then all the
rest do the same.  A clever nurse, on the second round of innoculations, went
to the first child in the queue and whispered something in his ear.  No
crying.  Similarly for the following children.  The astounded doctor was
shown by the children EXACTLY where to make the injection.

The nurse had told the children that if they could show the doctor exactly
where the previous injection had been made, he would use the same hole and
it wouldn't hurt.  :-)

ccb

ps My pediatrician was an expert at injections.  None of my children ever
cried.

    
    Well I had to enter my 2 cents, I told my pedi that I hated shots and
    he told me not to let Emily know this because if I make faces or
    anything when she gets her shots she will pick up on it.  The nurse 
    gives the shots at the pedi's office and she does them one at a time 
    very quick and then tells you to pick up the baby and give them a hug,
    Emily will cry for a couple of minutes and that is it.  
    
    Lisa

    Can I relate to this....I just my baby yesterday for his 4 month.
    
    Guess what....it's 3 shots now....they have started the Hep B
    vaccinations....he was so happy before his shots...I felt like the
    lowest person alive when he started screaming.
    
    In my dr's office the nurse gives the shots...they also give him
    Tempra right before his shots.
    
    The only reaction he seems to have is really tired and a little
    cranky...but all in all better than I feel!
    
    I don't think there is anything you can do...you HAVE to do this.
    How you react will ultimately effect the child once he can 
    understand....so remaining calm is a good idea.
    
    Kristen

    I just wanted to reply...my Pedi is the greatest when giving shots.
    When it's time to give shots, he wants me to hold either of the boys. 
    They put their arms around my neck and legs around my waist and tells
    them to squeeze tight.  The doctor tells me this is easier for him,
    since the prick of the needle makes them jump.  If you hold them tight, 
    it seems to go a lot quicker.  And they seem to be comforted to be in
    Mom's arms.  He also leaves the shots for the very last thing.  He also
    praises them for being very brave and telling them that it's ok if they
    cry because the shots do hurt.
    
    We have handled all their shots like this since Jeffrey was a baby and
    he is 5 and 1/2.  He didn't even wimper when he had is DPT booster
    before  he started school is September.  
    
    I think this is a really good thing, because you are giving your child
    the reassurance that you are there for them.  It also makes me feel a
    little less cruel.  (I know that they need to have them done!!!)
    
    Hope this helps you a little.
    
    
    Lillian
    
    
    

    
    One thing that I wish I had been advised about before my first
    daughter's shots was to dress the baby before the shot was
    administered.  Shannon was wearing just a diaper, and I remember trying
    to ackwardly dress a screaming baby.  After that visit I learned to
    dress my daughter and simply pull her pants down to expose the leg.  My
    docter has to wait a few minutes for me to dress her, but it sure makes
    life easier for mom. 
    
    I also brought a bottle of milk (after they were weaned) and gave it to
    them just before the shot was given.  It takes their minds off the shot
    a little.  My pedi also recommended giving tylenol to the kids just
    prior to the shots.  After one experience with a low grade fever and
    high-pitched screaming after not giving the tylenol, I always gave them
    tylenol before the shots.
    
    Carol
                       

I brought my 6 month old for his shots on Monday, and he was cranky all night,
he even woke up at 3:00 a.m. (he hasn't done that in a few months) and wouldn't
go back to sleep until after 5:00 a.m.

He was cranky all day Tuesday, and woke up at 10:00 P.M., up til' 12:00 (also
not like him at all).

He was cranky this A.M. also.  I have been giving him baby tylenol every 6-8 
hours or so, but now I am concerned about this after reading some of the 
responses here.

Has anyone experienced this prolonged crankiness after getting shots (2) ??

I am concerned that maybe there is something else that is wrong, that I just
can't see.  

Thanks in advance...



					---Sue.

    My daughter Alicia was always cranky for two days after her shots.  I
    gave her tylenol and extra loving and she was soon back to normal. My
    daughter Jessica doesn't even break a fever or have any reaction after
    her shots.
    
    Angie..
    

    My dr said to give him tylenol every 3 1/2 - 4 hrs....
    
    Maybe 6-8 hrs is too long....
    
    After I had the baby, they gave me the rubella shot before I
    left the hospital....needless to say, I WAS CRANKY!  my body
    ached (flu like symptoms) for 3 days....plus I had a c-section.
    
    I think reactions are more severe than crankiness....but you
    may want to call to be sure...
    
    Kristen

    
    Sounds perfectly normal to me... I had the same problem with Michael's
    6 month shots.  The ones at 2 mos and 4 mos didn't seem to phase him 
    much, but BOY the ones at 6 mos did!  Major cranky, and I could tell
    that they must of been hurting him...
    
    Extra tlc!
    
    Chris
    

Thanks for the responses, Joshua was much better on Wednesday, I guess I'm 
just over protective, and any little change in him worries me.


					---Sue.

One other idea about shots:  our doctor suggested that we get the 
shots done at the County Health Dept.  She said they would only charge a 
few dollars and she would have to charge much, much more (something like
$3 vs. $35).  This also kept the doctor's office disassociated with shots.
It's worked well (*much* cheaper!).  :-)

      Carol

    One of those basic *dumb* questions.....
    
    AJ is scheduled for his annual physical next week.  What should I
    expect in the way of immunization shots, and as this will be his
    pre-kindegarten physical as well, will he get any special shots such as
    smallpox, or special blood work?
    
    I remember his pedi commenting that his shots were all set until he was
    5 years old.  So now that he's 5.5, and all his shots were delayed a
    couple months as an infant anyway, this will be like a 5 year old
    physical.
    
    Also, what sort of "routine" questions would you ask.  I guess I see
    the pedi so frequently for "sick", and his many specialists for other
    visits I never really have a shopping list of questions.
    
    Lyn

    We just had a 5-year old physical.  They do get a final shot.  I
    brought all the school paperwork, camp paperwork with us and got it
    filled out.  If you don't have any from your school, you should call
    and get it.  I believe a physical is a requirement before school as is
    an immunization record.
    
    Other than that it was a standard physical.  They checked her balance,
    reflexes, spine, height, weight, asked some developmental questions.
    Talked to her to check her speech and hearing.  Checked eyes, ears
    etc. She passed with flying colors. I didn't have a lot of questions to
    ask about her, she is at or ahead or the developmental curve, eats
    well, as is well-adjusted so I can't help you too much there.
    

    It's sort of comforting to know that all the other mommies who have
    entered replies here seem to have trouble bringing their babies in for
    their shots also - misery does love company!
    
    I am a big baby about getting shots myself - I have always had a fear
    of needles - but I wouldn't dream of having my husband take my 5 month
    old daughter for her shots instead of me because it seems to me that when
    she is REALLY upset only mommy can make things better right away. 
    Therefore, even though I dread having to watch her get her shots, I do
    it so that I can be there to hold and comfort her afterwards.  I do it
    for her.

    A similar topic, and my request for opinions...
    
    I heard last weekend that there is a new (well renewal of an old trend
    IMO) trend of thinking among pediatricians.  The treatment of strep
    throat and ear infections will now be one shot, which will cost $55.
    instead of the ten-days of 2, 3, or 4 times a day liquid medicine.
    
    I'm not sure I want to just stick out his arm for a shot that will
    traumatize the kiddo, what does everyone else think?  I think it will
    make it harder to get him to the doctor's office for routine things, if
    he thinks he's going to get a shot everytime....I remember that
    thinking growing up, does anyone else relate to this?
    
    (that of course is assuming the HMO will foot the bill for the shot.  I
    will of course avoid the co-pay to the pharmacy, as it will be covered
    as part of the doctor's office visit)
    
    Lyn
    

    Lyn,
    
    I'm not sure how your kid(s) will respond, but I know mine won't go for
    it.  I refuse antibiotic shots for my kids unless it is absolutely
    necessary, because I have a long, involved family history of antibiotic
    allergies.  The full shot of antibiotics at once is more likely to
    trigger a major reaction, than the gradual sensitization over a week or
    ten days to a particular antibiotic.  Of course, the advantage is that
    if you wait 20 minutes in the office and the reaction occurs, and is
    extreme, you have medical help available right now instead of waiting
    for your friendly 911 paramedics, or hoping you or a neighbor has a "bee
    kit" before the run to the emergency room.  
    
    Now I had a doctor who felt that this was the better way to treat
    serious strep infections, particularly if there was also vomiting
    involved, and chances were you wouldn'tkeep the penicillin down.  He
    did insist that you stay in the office  for a full 1/2 hour after the
    shot to make sure that a reation wouldn't occur.
    
    Meg    
    
      

    Lyn,
    
    Although strep is one of the things we have kept out of our house (so
    far ;^)) I for one would ask for the shot.  In fact, when I know Shannon 
    is real sick I ask for a shot of Roseffin (sp?) if antibiotics will be
    perscribed.  It helps get a jump on the infection, kind of a head start
    if you know what I mean.  Her doctor and I call it vitamin R!  I also 
    request Suprax instead of the pink stuff.  It is administered once per
    day, and seems to taste better to Shannon (well, she doesn't *always*
    spit it at us, so it must be ok?)
    
    In response to the noter who doesn't want to make their child afraid of
    the doctor, my philosophy is get the child healthy as soon as possible,
    or they  will be making a return trip to the office or hospital. I 
    hated doctors as a child too,  until I realized their goal was the 
    same as mine (usually).
    
    beth
    

    At my childbirth refresher class, I was told that hospitals now have
    you sign forms to allow them to give the HIB vaccine within 12 hours
    of birth now. When my daughter was born 2 yrs ago., they had just 
    changed the vaccination schedule from the 1st shot at 18 mo./2 yrs. old
    to 3 months. Anyone have information about HIB? 

A couple of years ago we were on a long car trip to Michigan and Evan came
down with strep.  We opted to have the shot because the medication would have
had to be refrigerated and we were about to start camping for a week.
They said the shot would make his leg a "little" sore, as I recall.  He limped
for 2 days.  He was 2 years old at the time.  

Because of that experience, I will generally prefer the medication to the shot.

      Carol

    Charlotte went for her 18 mo. shots yesterday, a shot in each thigh.
    She seemed even less upset than last time and seemed to recover from
    the initial screaming surprisingly quickly. 
    However, sleeping last night she was crying often in her sleep and 
    very restless.
    When I picked her up this morning she clung to me, and seemed to be 
    shaking and she cried in pain (usually all you have to do is pick
    her up and she forgets what she was crying for - not this morning).
    
    Alan took her and started to changed her diapers and noticed that 
    she cried the most when he moved her legs. He said the muscles were
    very stiff and she was in a lot of pain.
    
    We gave her some tylenol and dressed her - all the while she cried
    so much that I was so upset I had trouble focusing on what I was
    doing - it REALLY got to me since she seldom crys like that - almost
    whimpering. 
    She wouldn't walk and would only calm down when we sat her on the 
    big pillow in the livingroom. Alan decided to stay home with her
    and now reports that while she won't walk around a lot, she seems
    to be better. I am presently waiting for a call back from the 
    doctor's office on this,
    
    Anybody recognize these side effects? Its got me totally distracted
    from my work today......
    
    Monica

    Monica,
    
    Not an answer to your question but rather a comiseration.  Sarah had
    her 18 mo shot on Tuesday.  While her leg didn't stiffen it did feel
    very warm for the past few days and she ran a small fever yesterday. 
    
    A call to your doctor was definitely in order.  Hope everything is
    fine.  It's miserable watching your baby be in pain.
    
    Hugs for Charlotte.
    
    Susan

    
    Monica,
    
    We had a similar problem with one of Jason's immunizations -
    he had a big, hard knot in his leg following the injection; it
    literally throbbed.   Next time around, I told the nurse about 
    it and she said it sometimes happened when they hit the muscle
    just right (or just wrong, I suppose) and suggested rubbing the
    leg IMEDIATELY after the immunization to "break-up" or help 
    disperse the liquid.  That seems to do the treak - but is of no
    help for Charlotte this time around unfortunately.
    
    cj/ 

    
    Second on the rubbing idea.  My pedi does it  as a standard practice. 
    We also PRECEDE the shot with a dose of tylenol.
    
    COmmiserations from me.  It's tough to hear them cry like that.
    
    
    JAmd
    

At Lauren's 18 month shot she also got a big knot that throbbed and was ver y
sore.  When she forgot about the soreness and jumped or tried to climb the
stairs she would quickly say "Owey".  She had the knot and sensitivity for 5-6
days.

    My doctor has often suggested ice packs for the first day or so if the
    legs are warm, hard, or painful.
    
    

    Monica (and others...)
    I don't know if there is a difference in the shots between
    countries,but I do know that here in Israel, the "18 months" shot is
    considered the most "problematic" one. While Yahli had no "after shot"
    reactions to all others (3months,5months etc), she had a horrible time
    after the 18months one. She also had stiffen legs the night after she
    got the shot,and cried for 2 days. We gave her kids acamol (the local
    version of Tylanol) to get the fever down, wrapped her legs with wet,
    warm cloths, and massaged her legs. I think she was better the day
    after (I can't seem to remember "bad times"...) feverrwise,but we still
    went on with the warm cloths for another day. I was home at that time
    (Shachar was 6-7 weeks old) and she was "glued" to me for 2 days.
    I really hope Charlotte is better today
    R/.

Noelle recently had her 15-month shots (in the USA).  (She won't get any at
18-months).  She received DPT, MMR, and Hib.  She received the Hib in her leg
and that didn't bother her at all.  But whichever shot landed in her right arm
gave her trouble for about 5 days.  For the first couple of days, both arms
were clearly painful and she cried whenever we changed her shirt.  I also
noticed that she couldn't use her arms to roll over in her crib.  After
that, she cried less but she only rarely used her right arm in eating or
in play.

I was going to request that they give that shot in the leg next time, but
now it sounds like that isn't such a good idea either...  I wonder if they
can give it in the butt??  I have a vague memory of someone telling me
that the more you use the affected muscle, the quicker the recovery, and it's
hard *not* to use your gluteus maximus (sp?) :-)

- Deb

    I have been told that the 18 months' shots are the most painful and
    most "problematic" as someone put it. With Avanti I gave her Tylenol
    every 4 hours and let her exercise her legs a lot after she got her
    shots to prevent her muscles from stiffening. Of course at nite there
    is not much you can do. I remember holding Avanti for hours 'cause the
    shots hurt and the bump where she got the shots was quite pink.
    
    Oh joy, I get to experience this all over again when Neel gets his
    shots the day before Thanksgiving :-(
    
    Shaila

    Well,
    Charlotte seems to have recovered quickly and the doctor told me
    that this was not a rare reaction to these shots. Aside from pain
    reliever she also suggested compresses if the swelling was acute.
    
    I could detect little swelling in the immediate area, but her
    legs felt like all the muscles were cramping.
    
    Alan, who bravely stayed home with her (and had that "I have been
    run over by a truck" look when I came home) said that she took a 
    long morning nap after which she was well on the road to recovery.
    
    She slept very well last night and was back to her bubbly self this
    morning.
    
    I asked another parent here, who's son is just 5 weeks older than
    Charlotte and he said that the boy had had the SAME reaction last 
    month. Well, now I don't feel so bad, but I'm glad that's over!
    
    Monica

I'm glad Charlotte's doing better.

I have a question about shots and one of my "babies".  Evan is 5 now, and 
received (a couple of weeks ago) the first of the 2 flu shots they give to
children under age 9. I am unfortunately *not* an expert on tact, and need
advice on how to get what I want without making the doctor's staff (and
possibly the doctor) (more?) angry at me. 

We were at an appointment for our 1 year old baby (who also got the shot).
We didn't plan on getting any shots, but since our baby has had some problems
then we decided we should all get the flu shots to keep the illness out of
the house.  Evan just happened to be there while we were at the appointment.
It was at the end of the day.

Evan agreed to the shot, but as we walked to the office he became more and
more frightened.  One of the things we have always liked about this doctor is
her willingness to work with frightened children, to convince them or comfort
them rather than forcing them.  I have in the past gotten Evan to voluntarily
open his mouth for strep tests, even though he knew it would hurt.  It takes
a while to get him to do this, but I feel it is far better than holding him
down.

As Evan was sitting on the examining table, the nurse was getting ready to give
him the shot.  Evan was getting very frightened, and I told him that he could
relax his arm and it wouldn't hurt as much.  I told him that we would wait 
until he was ready, and we wouldn't give him the shot until he said he was
ready.  *Just* after I said this, the nurse started the needle to his arm to
give him the shot.  She had been standing there the whole time, so had to be
hearing what I was saying to him.  I told her no, and had to physically push
the needle away (it was a struggle!) because she kept pushing it to be in his
arm.  I told her that *he* would say when it was time.

I then told Evan that he could count to 3 and then she would...at that moment
the nurse put the needle in his arm!  I stared at her (Evan was crying) and she
said, "they just get more scared the longer they wait" and she walked out. 
Evan had been getting *calmer* as he had had more control over the situation.
Evan asked me, "Why did she do that?  I didn't count to 3 yet!"  I told her,
through the open door (she was in the hall at a desk right outside our room)
that if she had had something that she had had to do, she should have *told* me
that. I told her that Evan felt betrayed.  (He did, but so did *I*!) 

I am now faced with the situation where the second shot needs to be given to
him in a couple of weeks.  I like my doctor very much but am still *very*
angry with the nurse.  As I recalled later, she had also been the nurse who
had tried to use the "big stick" (tongue depressor) in Evan's mouth another
time for a strep test when I told Evan if he voluntarily opened his mouth
we wouldn't use the stick and I had told that nurse the same thing.  I had had
to hold her hand down that time, too.  Our doctor had told me herself that
the tongue depressor wasn't necessary if he could open his mouth wide enough,
which Evan had done on several occasions (and which he was doing then).

Can you think of any way I can still use the same doctor's office to do the
second shot, and make sure that whoever gives him the shot will give him
2-3 minutes to say "when" (if necessary)?  How would I phrase it to make sure,
preferably *before* I take Evan in for the appointment? 

         Carol

Carol

I have to tell ya that my blood was "boiling" as I read your story.  I am
in complete sympathy with you and Evan.

What has happened when you've asked your doctor to speak to her nurse?  Is
she open to doing this?  (Especially as you explain that you prefer her
services to that of many other peds available to you?)

Have you talked to the nurse, in a matter-of-fact adult-eye-to-eye fashion?
What has her response been?

If neither of these two options work, is it possible to go to some other -
higher/external - source?  By that I mean, with Kaiser here in Ohio there is a
Customer Relations (or some such title) person whose responsibility it is to
address customer issues.  Is that a course you can take?

Know and understand that you can have the level of service you require for your
child.

Please keep us informed.  

Mo.

    I'm upset too!
    I see you have two problems here 
    
    1/ the nurse herself and how not to have her attend your son in 
       the future: I'd have a good STRONG talk with the doctor.
    
    2/ Evan's confidence - your hard work at getting him to accept
       the needle was pretty well destroyed - its not going to
       be easier the next time. 
    
    What an awful nurse!
    
    Monica

I'm so *glad* to hear someone agree with me!

I think the proper action is to talk, but do I talk to the nurse or to
the doctor (nurse first, then doctor if necessary)?  And what exactly do
I say?  (Remember, I need examples since I'm not very tactful when I'm angry,
especially when I feel I'm protecting my child).

     Carol

    Carol,
    
    Wait until Monday when you are a little bit "cooler", then call and ask
    to speak with the nurse.  If you don't get satisfaction speaking with
    her, then ask to speak to your Dr. about this and work it from there.  
    
    I prefer working with the person who has offended first before I go
    over their head, particularly if it is someone I will have to have
    contact with in the future.  
    
    Good luck, and I am angry for you and Evan as well.
    
    Meg

    I suppose that in theory, one ought to talk to the nurse first; but
    in this case, the nurse's behavior seems so outrageous that I can't
    imagine how you could ever have enough confidence in her to let her
    deal with Evan again.  If it were me, I think I would be talking to
    the doctor, explaining why I didn't *ever* want that nurse attending
    to my child again; and if the doctor wouldn't go along with that,
    I'd think very strongly about changing practices.
    
    	-Neil

    But Niel,  
    
    Some people are just stuck in their way of doing things, and need to
    have the fact that other ways work for other people better brought to
    their attention.  This is particularly true with anyone who works in
    the medical profession, for some reason.  
    
    Maybe it's just me, but I like to give the person the benifit of the
    doubt first.  I have had to explain rather firmly to some nurses and
    doctors that the way I do things may be different from theirs.  After
    the initial shock, and sometimes hostility, they may give it a try.  If
    that doesn't work, then I start working my way up the path.  
    
    Meg
                                             

I'd try talking to the nurse first, but if you feel from your conversation
that you're not making any progress, don't wait.  Make your next call to the
doctor and explain the situation.  Is she the only nurse there? Can you
request that another nurse be the one to tend to you instead of her?

The only time I had to complain about a nurse was when my kids were in the
NICU, and a nurse threw me out of the NICU while I was in the middle of
talking to the doctor because I was talking to the doctor.  She had decided
that I was in the way.  I first asked the doctor if I was bothering her
by talking about Brad's prognosis while she was examining Jessica, and
upon being assured that I was not and that my questions were proper, I
explained to the nurse that I thought her throwing me out of the NICU
was improper.  Her reaction was to intentionally hurt Jessica.  I complained
to the head nurse, but found the nurses stuck together, so for the next
2 days, I had to deal with them refusing to let me see my daughter for more
than 10 minutes as she was going back to sleep instead of the usual hour
where we could feed her and change her.  I learned real fast that I would
get slapped for complaining, but didn't hesitate to mention it to the doctor
when she asked me.  The doctor fixed the problem, and we even managed to
be able to get along with the offending nurse for the rest of Brad's stay.

So you might want to pick your words with the nurse carefully.  And if you
have to talk with the doctor, try to be as tactful as possible so you make
sure she's on your side.  You want them to understand that you were just
trying to be cooperative and to have your son be cooperative as that will
make everyone's life easier. And having a nurse force the patient to do
things will not make it easier on subsequent visits. And if she's like that
with your son, chances are she's like that with all the patients, so you're
just tring to make it better for everyone. Given an effective selling job,
you might be able to get the nurse to see where what she did was wrong
and get her to voluntarily correct her behavior.  It's worth a try.

Cathy

    
    
    >>Some people are just stuck in their way of doing things, and need to
    >>have the fact that other ways work for other people better brought to
    
    Meg,
    I am afraid that I'd agree with Neil here, precisely because of 
    what you said about the nurse "stuck in their way" often discussion
    will not modify their behaviour since they feel that there's nothing
    wrong with their behaviour.
    
    I'd say speak to the doctor, since this does involve whether or
    not Carol's family will continue to go there.
    
    Carol - I guess that you should just tell the doctor of your
    extreme displeasure with the behaviour of the nurse - use your
    "I'm On The Phone With a Customer That Makes Me Angry But I Can't
    Let It Show" talents, if you feel you need more control ;-).
    
    Let us know how things turn out!
    
    Monica

Although I *do* want to point out a (non-malicious, non-negligent) --
possibility:

I am hearing impaired in a way such that I sometimes have difficulty
attending to conversation and attending to something that requires concentration
(such as preparing a needle) at the same time -- *especially* when I'm
not being addressed directly (I tend to "tune the conversation out")
or am not facing the speakers (I sometime supplement my hearing with
lip-reading).  A lot of people have trouble believing that I have a problem,
especially since I haven't had the time-consuming (and expensive) audiological/
neurological work-up so that I can get a label for myself :-( 

In the scenario you described (and, sinceyou didn't describe it minutely, so
I'm making some assumptions), I could easily see someone with my disability 
*not even registering* the conversation that went on between you and Evan.

On the other hand, she easily could be a "Nurse knows best". :-(

I'd talk to the doctor, rather than the nurse, but be open to this as a
possibility.  On the other hand, if you've had a number of direct conversations
with the nurse in which you're not happy with her, don't be open to this
possibility :-).  btw, if she is hearing impaired, she may not even
realize it.  It took me a long time to learn to concentrate enough to even
realize someone was talking to me when my back was turned...this kind
of concentration is hard work, and I now feel way more tired at the end 
of the day.

Best of luck,

Bobbi

If that nurse cannot support your philosophy, you should not have to interact
with her - she could leave a lasting impression on your child.  When I was
little I had a dentist that used to threaten (at least from a small child
perspective) me and my brother when we got our novacaine (sp?) shots.  To this
day I remember the threats and have a hard time getting myself to the dentist. 
Unfortunately it took my mom and dad a little while to figure the situation out,
but when they did we no longer went to him.  I did not let a dentist give me a
novacaine shot for about 5 years after that.

Also, I once had a nurse treat me unacceptably when I was having a mammogram for
a lump.  I wrote the doctor outlining the situation and what happened.  I
recieved a call from the nurse not only apologizing but letting me know she did
not realize how her actions could affect a patient.  

Just some thoughts...let us know how it turns out.

Thank you all for your help and your perspectives.  Now I just have to work
up the guts to call and straighten this out (which I'll do, just not today...).
:-}

Bobbi, it's possible she is hearing impaired, though I strongly doubt it.
The only thing which *doesn't* match that possibility is the physical struggle
we had when I was pushing the needle away from his arm.  We were nearly head to
head, with my hand exerting lots of force on hers.  There was no mistaking my
actions.  Still, it's good you brought that up, and I was certainly thinking of
using the "perhaps you didn't hear me" tact anyway (trying to phrase it to
"give her the benefit of the doubt"). 

I'll let you all know what happens.  :-}  Thank you again.

     Carol

Perhaps the hearing impaired is a long shot, but it's also possible that she 
tuned out everything except giving the shot.

This is not to excuse her, and I don't know how this affects who to call, but 
sometimes it is the doctor (or perhaps the practice) that is at fault.  I 
doubt that they directly say "Be rude and ignore parent's wishes" but some 
doctors push the nurses so hard to get so much done that the nurse views even 
a ten second delay as a major imposition.  It's kind of like the abrupt 
customer service person who gets that way because they are chewed out by 
their boss for not servicing enough customers.

By making the nurse the "bad cop" it enables the doctor to be the "good cop", 
or to push more patients through.  Of course this is a general comment; I 
know nothing about Carol's doctor's practice.

Clay 

Carol,

I would have been livid. Kudos to you for keeping your cool. If I were in your
situation I would have a talk to your PCP about it. Right now. If the PCP is 
willing to work it out, then you might want to give them a second chance. It
might mean keeping that nurse away from Evan. If the PCP isn't concerned, or
gives some lame excuse like they don't have ten seconds to waste, then I'd
seriously consider switching pediatricians.


Re: Note: 118.59
Author: CADSE::FOX "No crime. And lots of fat, happy women"

>I am hearing impaired in a way such that I sometimes have difficulty
>attending to conversation and attending to something that requires concentration
>(such as preparing a needle) at the same time -- *especially* when I'm
>not being addressed directly (I tend to "tune the conversation out")
>or am not facing the speakers (I sometime supplement my hearing with
>lip-reading).  A lot of people have trouble believing that I have a problem,
>especially since I haven't had the time-consuming (and expensive) audiological/
>neurological work-up so that I can get a label for myself :-( 

That's ok, by the time they assigned you a label it would be politically
incorrect ;^}

FWIW there are many, many deaf/Deaf/hard of hearing/hearing impaired nurses in
practice who are quite aware of their disability and compensate accordingly.
IMO this would not be an excuse, especially when the point was reinforced with
physical contact, and a retort from the nurse implying that they know best.

Chris

    
    Carol -
    
    How awful!  I know what you mean when you say it's hard to concentrate
    on being tactful when you're protecting your baby.
    
    What I can't believe is that you had to use physical intervention and she
    STILL didn't get it...and ask you what was wrong.... and discuss it.
    
    
    My first inclination is to go direct to the highest authority at the
    practice and, as unemotionally as possible, state the chain of events
    and ask for A) another nurse, b) the nurse to respect your spoken
    requests.  It is *very* possible you won't be the first to say
    something.
    
    
    Good luck!
    

I suggested that you make an appt to get Evan's
next shot, but make it very clear that that particular
nurse is not a choice, so your appt is at some other
time.  Be clear that she was not supportive of Evan
and your efforts to help him manage his fear of
shots, and that this is not acceptible.

Then both you and Shelley go to the appt, and if she
shows up with the needle, one of you can stay with
Evan and the other can escort her out of the room
and back to the scheduling person who screwed up.
Be calm, be clear, and do not budge.

One last little detail - make sure you get the name
of the person who made the appt, in case of a problem.
*That* person will be responsible if that nurse comes
near Evan again.

I personally would not talk to the nurse myself unless
confronted directly, in which case I would tell her
very clearly why she cannot give my child a shot.  I
would not argue (that implies you could be wrong, and
you're not).  I would simply say, "I'm sorry if 
we are hurting your feelings, but you disregarded 
my child's feelings, which are just as valid as yours.
This is not how we treat our children nor do we allow 
others to treat them this way."

Pat

Once again, thank you all for your suggestions, both here and in mail.

Yesterday I called the doctor's office and asked when I might be able to
meet with this nurse.  We set it up for 8:00 AM the next day (today).  
The nurse and I arrived at the same time, and I waved to her as she drove
in.  When she brought me into an office, I told her that I was there because
of the misunderstanding we had had the last time I had been there, and I wanted
to help us work together as a team in the future.  I explained my philosophy,
which I had essentially learned from that doctor.  I told her that my philosophy
was that you try to give a child as much power as you can in a situation 
where ultimately they have *no* power.  In other words, the child *is* going
to get a shot, but I let them choose when.

I explained that what I would like to do in the future is to allow about 
5 minutes to work with Evan, to get him to say "when".  The nurse and I 
discussed the details of how we could do this.  I would prep Evan heavily
before the appointment, and then work on him for a couple of minutes (if
necessary - and I expect it to be necessary) to get him to say he was ready.
After that time, if the nurse needed to go somewhere then she should say,
"May I leave the room for a couple of minutes to do xxxx?" at which point
I would say yes or "he's almost ready".  We discussed what the best time 
would be to schedule this so it worked best with her schedule and gave us
more lee time.

She agreed to all of this, and still gave me the option of working with
someone else.  I told her I prefered to work with her, now that we had had
this conversation.  

The appointment is for Tuesday morning, November 30 at 8:15.  I'll let you
know how it goes.  Justin will be there for his shot, too, so Shellie will
be there to take care of his needs (mostly comforting and his usual weight
check).

Thank you again.  I feel better.  The nurse admitted that she can learn new
things, and even complimented me on coming to her to discuss this.  :-)

        Carol

    Good for you Carol!
    
    Jodi-

    Brava  Carol
    
    I hope to hear in your next update on Evan, that the nurse is following
    actions to match her words.  It is good to see that assertiveness on
    your part has worked this far.
    
    Meg

Of course now Evan will probably foil your plans by getting bored with your 
extensive prep, being not the least bit afraid, and saying "what's all the 
fuss, gimme the shot, I want outta here"  :^)

Seriously, congrats to you and to the nurse.

Clay

	Super job, Carol - and you say you have a hard time dealing
	with this stuff !!  Sounds like you did just great and I 
	hope it all works out well on the 30th - I'll be thinking
	and praying for all of you, but for especially good news about 
	Justin's progress weight-wise and success on Evan's next shot !!!!!!

	Hugs to all,
	Debbi

It's because of *you folks* that I was able to know some good things to
say and be calm enough to say them!!!  

And Clay:  ... HA!  I wish!  :-)

                Carol

Good news!!!!!!

I took Evan to the doctor's office this morning for Evan's second flu shot.
Shellie had prepared Evan a bit yesterday, and I worked on him this morning.
He decided to count to 10 and on 10 the nurse would give him the shot.
He also said that he didn't want the treat (candy) that I had told him he
could choose after the shot, but would rather have something "relaxing",
like a tape.  I agreed that if he counted to 10 quickly then I would have
enough time to run home and get 2 tapes for him to take to daycare/kindergarten.

We "practiced" the shot as we drove to the doctor's.  He would count to 10
and I would pretend to give him the shot.  We were laughing.  When we arrived
he was counting to 10 before even getting into a room.  I explained the
arrangement (giving the shot on "10") with the nurse, and she did exactly what
she had agreed to do. 

When we got into the room, he got up on the examining table and counted...
just like that.  He got up to 9, then paused, and expressed fear ("I don't
want to say '10' because then it will hurt!"), but then said the last number,
"10".  The nurse (the *same* nurse) tried to get him to look away, but Evan
watched as she inserted the needle, slowly injected the solution, and pulled
the needle out.  He didn't let out a single peep, not a hint of a cry.
You could have knocked me over with a feather.

He then demanded his Snoopy bandaid, he got that and a sticker, and we left
to get the tapes.  Simple as that.  wow.  :-)

Oh, and of course, now that he's injured he refuses to use that arm all day. :-)

Needless to say, I'm proud of my little guy, and greatly appreciate the help
which you all gave me, both in support and advice, which enabled us to have
such a good experience.  :-)

     Carol

    Carol,
    
    Great news!!!
    
    And congratulations to Evan.  
    
    Meg