Conference moira::parenting

We have had our Apple II GS since Lauren was a baby. She watched us use it for
the word processing and spreadsheet capability and a few games. One day, (at 
3 and 1/2 years old) she sat down on my lap and began to type her name. She 
wanted to see how it would look on paper and so I showed her how to print it.

From that point on, she became enamoured with the computer. We used the Apple to
reinforce reading fundamentals with applications like Talking Reader Rabbit, 
Mixed up Mother Goose, Stickybear and Paintbox. By the time she was 4 1/2, she 
knew how to load up the programs, print her art work, and save them to disk. The
computer is a toy for her. The educational games like Carmen Sandiego are fun 
and reinforce reading and geography. 

A few weeks ago, Lauren (now 6 1/2) came into the office and "knew" how to use 
DECwrite to draw her picture of Beauty and the Beast's Castle. It looked better 
than anything I've ever drawn with DECwrite! Even the secretaries were 
impressed. 

Lauren's Grade 1 teacher recently told us that her reading skills are
at a Grade 3 level. The computer alone is not responsible, but it sure doesn't
hurt! BTW, we also have Nintendo, but she's not as interested in that.

Carol

A couple of weeks ago Wendy picked up at Lechmere a laptop for our 6 month old.
Spencer loves it and I'm more than a little jealous.

Well, okay, its a rattle that _looks_ like a laptop. There is a whole line of 
`yuppy' baby rattle toys - videocam, cellular phone, boombox, etc.

-marc

    Our 2-year old is facinated by dinosaurs.  My  husband bought a
    computer game for his Epson which features a human and some dinosaurs. 
    David has learned to operate the joystick and move the dino's around
    the screen. (He was 2 in December, so I guess that makes him 2.5,
    slmost).  He also likes to play with an Olympic skiing game...but he
    prefers to have the ski-jumpers CRASH into the hillside, because it
    makes much more noise.  He really likes to use the joystick and is 
    getting pretty adept at locating the cursor and using the mouse. 
    Sarah

    
    
    	Please do post a review of the toy, I am very interested in hearing
    about how your child responds to it.
    
    
    				Wendy

    Sorry if I sound blunt, but why the hurry in getting kids hooked on
    computers and games. I rather wait for my daughter to be at least 6
    years old (the number 6 is arbitrary, of course) since introduction to
    computers is inevitable in this day and age. Both my husband and I work
    with computers all day and have a PC at home but I somehow do not feel
    inclined to introduce my daughter (now 3) to anything more than banging
    at the keyboard because she thinks it is fun to see the letters of the
    alphabet appear on the screen.
    
    I am just afraid that I will have her hooked on to computer/video games
    too early in life.
    
    Opinions?
    
    Shaila

    Well.  I don't know.  Seems like the thing to do.  We don't have
    Nintendo or any other video games, so that threat is non-existant.
    The item I spoke of in my previous reply is much more a learning
    computer than strickly a game.  Just seems that at turning 3 my son needs 
    something more to fulfill his time.  He's been reading for a while now and 
    knows the alphabit and numbers to about 50.  So why not get him a computer 
    learning toy?  The one we got (picked it up yesterday) was broken so we'll 
    be getting another one Wednesday.  Good thing I was curious enough to play 
    with it myself. Wouldn't have been too great to give him a broken birthday 
    present.
    
    Anyway upon reading the box it seems that this thing is even expandable
    for advanced math and spelling and so on.  I had thought only the next
    model up was expandable.  Like I said, I'll give a review once we get the 
    new one.  (I can just see myself asking _him_ if _I_ can borrow it!)
    
    I know what mistakes I made in school in the lack of wanting to learn
    and certainly regret it now.  I just want to at least give him the 
    opportunity to learn and have it be fun at the same time.  If there
    were p.c.'s in high school I very well may have done better in college.
    Well, maybe not but I never even had the _chance_.  At least my son will.  
    So what's the harm in him having a head start with the buggers?
    
    Steve

How do you keep from getting them into computers when one or both members of
a family "do" computers for a living? Having 4 computers in our home, and one
of us frequently on a computer, it is difficult to keep our little ones (3 yrs
and 17 mos) AWAY from them.

I finally gave in and got them some of their own learning games so they can
"work" their computer while I work mine!  Now we have battles over the PC
because that's where their games are and sometimes that's where my software is
too!

When my girls are in high school having computers at home will seem as normal
to them as having a t.v. at home was to me at that age!

There is quite a discussion on this point in the CNOTES::EDUCATION_ISSUES
conference (press KP7 or SELECT to add it to your notebook).

Personally, I've never tried to teach my children before the schools do because
I feel they have little enough time to play and be children as it is.  What I
DO do is provide an environment where they can get an early start if they want
to.  We have many computers which have been mainly used for computer games up 
till recently.  Now my older boy is beginning to recognize the value of them
as sophisticated typewriters.  They get regular computer training in the school
now.

And in our discussions and family times, we reinforce topics they've learned or
are studying in school by having them tell us about them.

I have a beautiful picture of my boy Markus when he was about 3 or 4 years
old sitting in front of a Macintosh with an intense look of concentration on
his face, a cut across his nose, and wearing a motorcycle crash helmut.  I
think he was playing Frogger :-)

I recently attended a computer education seminar at the local university.  They
discourage the use of computers for significant amounts of learning in the
early grades because it isolates the children so.  I certainly have seen this
in some modern children who become so computer centered that they don't
develop the social interaction skills that they need.  Computers are great as
a means to cut learning time but learning, in my opinion, in the early years
is a social experience.

mes deux sous.

ccb

    
    I plan on teaching my child his entire life, the attitude that 
    
    	"Learning does not equal fun" just does not hold water in our
    house. I loved school, I loved books and I loved learning about
    different things before I started in school and while I was out of
    school. One of the greatest gifts I can give my child is to pass on
    this love.
    
    				Wendy
    
    	

    I do not have a problem with teaching tools such as the ones that Texas
    Instruments sells or any PC computer software that does the same. We
    let our daughter watch video tapes that are educational and
    entertaining. My concern is with computer and video games that kids get
    exposed to. I have seen 5 year olds get hooked on to the video games
    where there is more entertainment than education.
    
    I figure that once kids are about 6 years old they will find out about
    the video games and will want to play them even if I do not introduce
    them early earlier than that age - so why push it. 
    
    I am not against entertainment and kids having fun but it soon becomes
    an addiction - that is what bothers me.
    
    Shaila

    At over $40 a pop for Nintendo games, it would bother me too.  I have
    an old Atari that works just fine when I bring it out once a month or
    so.  Then it gets put away for a while.  And games can be had for under
    $5 most of the time.
    
    Steve

    My little girl started on a terminhal in local mode at age 3 - mostly
    typing the alphabet.  We got a MAC when she was 4 and bought her
    several "games" that teach spelling, math concpets etc.  She also uses
    her big brothers paint program, knew how to use the printer before I
    did and needs to help getting on and off.  The only problem we have is
    that she wantsto play other games but can't yet read which means that
    someone needs to talk her through it.  Another year and she won't even
    need that.
    
    I have no problem with little kids on computers.  I didn't touch one
    until college and spend most of everyday using one.  Better a computer
    where they can learn typing skills thaen a nintendo when they "learn"
    very little.

        I've done a search on this topic in this and the V3 notesfile
        and didn't find an entry.  Please point me in the right direction
        for this stuff.  Since this is really a child oriented request,
        I thought this may be a better place to talk about generalities
        rather than start going through all of the various PC related
        conferences.  I sure would appreciate some feedback before
        folks start pointing me to general PC conferences (any specific
        notes would be *greatly* appreciated).

        My kids are old enough to start messing with a computer.  My
        quandry is what kind should I get?   Of course, the school
        has a load of Apple II(somethings) and me being one of the
        project leads for alpha workstations stuff, I know about
        Jensen coming along, so I probably have the problem bracketed.

        What are the experiences of the you folks out there with kids?
        My main target is letting the kids do stuff on it (not really
        for "games", but I know I can't avoid that all the time).

                - whadjaget?  Why?
                - what should I look for?  Initially my mind is made
                  up for color + printer (what kind do you folks suggest)?
                - was it worth it?  Do they use it?  How successful were
                  you at fostering/encouraging it's use *OUTSIDE* of games?
                - what SW works?
                - what configuration do you suggest?  Go for more memory
                  or disk?  Better monitor?
                - suggestion on good places to get stuff (in the
                  NH/Mass area - yeah, maybe I can get to Fry's on the
                  left coast...)

        For selfish me, since I do 3D graphics, the one that *I'd* want
        would have to have the computes of at least a PV-class Flamingo with
        the price (and power consumption) of less that $1000 (one can *dream*,
        can't they?).  But really, I'd like one that would have some
        programming capabilities (they probably all come with it) at some
        higher level language like C and access to graphics capabilities
        (got some "educational" games on my mind).

        Thanks in advance.

                        Pete (and Emmy and Katy and Bethany)




    

We started years ago with an Atari to program the model train.  It was really
my husband's project but he wanted to get the boys interested.  That never did
happen.

As he upgraded we ended up with 3 computers in the house (plus a laptop which
hardly counts), all Ataris.  The boys had theirs down in the basement and 
used them mostly to play games.  What was amazing is that playing games on
a computer meant that they had to learn _about_ the computer, i.e. how to
backup disks, how to handle viruses, how to boot, what memory is and how it's
counted, etc.  

Two years ago we set up the boys with their computers in their rooms since
it has become popular to do homework on the computer, especially reports.  They
are now 12 and 14 and are proficient at word processing and layout and know
how to print, etc.  Markus, the 12 year old, loves computers and is the only
regular attendee at after school computer lab where he writes programs in
Logo.  Dirk uses it mainly as a word processor.

They still play games, especially when their friends come round so it is a
kind of social experience.  And I still find it better than watching television.

We found for word processing that a fairly simple ascii WP was better than 
one that offered all knid of layout possibilities.  They tend to get all tied
up in fonts and formatting instead of the words when the program offers too
many options.  We have a second program which allows more sophisticated layout
and they can pour their paper into this after they have the text all correct
and then add fonts, bold, italics, etc.

Our newest machine is a super duper 486-66DX with full multi media capability
and color printing.  The additional things we will get from this system besides
color is multi media capability with online encyclopedia, etc., French word
processing with spell and grammar checking, and better quality printing.

Cheryl

    Re: .14
    
    You didn't mention how old your children are.  My son is almost 4.5 yr
    old.  We introduced computer when he turned 3.5.  So far, we are really
    pleased with the learning experience he gained.  We have no games only
    educational software.  Eric now reads and adds.   
    
    As to what kind of computer you should get, it really depends on what
    you want to use it for.  Besides Eric, I use our computer to keep 
    track of family finance.  My husband uses it for simple word
    processing.  We have a 386 with color monitor and printer.  We don't
    have a lot of memory, but we do feel the need of bigger disk.  We
    currently have a 80M disk and are considering upgrading it to 200M.
    They are a lot of fancy things you can now add to the computer.  For
    us, a simple 386 so far is sufficient.
    
    
    Also my husband and I both have very nice computers in our office.  And 
    we both have the options to bring the computers home.  This is another 
    reason we don't want to spend much in our home computer.  
    
    Wendy  
    

    My daughter, Emily is 2 1/2 and would love to be able to use our
    'puter'.  Unfortunately we don't have any software which is appropriate
    for her.  We have a 486 which runs either DOS or Windows.  We've
    been out shopping but it's so hard to tell from the blurp on the box
    whether the software is appropriate.  Does anyone have any specific
    reccomendations for the pre-reader age group?  We saw one piece of
    software called 'The Playroom' which looked like it might be a good
    choice.
    
    Carol

and loves to play Alphabet blocks.  It's put out by Sierra.  You need a sound
board to use it, so that may be a limitation.  I have to work the mouse, for
her (see points on the screen), but she is getting better with it the more she
plays.

michael

Spencer (2 1/2) loves Mickey's ABC, Mickey's 123 and Mickey's Colors N'
Shapes and can do it all himself.  They run about $15/$20 at Costco and are
put out by, you guessed it, Disney Software.  You really need some sort of
sound board to make it worthwhile.

We bought the cheap Disney Sound Source for ~$40 that attaches to the
parallel port and uses a 9volt battery.  As a bonus, it comes with a Windows
3.1 driver.

-marc 

    
    A few ideas....
    
    Snapdragon is a "coloring book" that teaches the use of the mouse. My
    daughter loves to color the pictures, and she's really facile withthe
    mouse now!
    
    Mickey's Alphabet is a fun, letter recognition program.  It can use a
    soundblaster card, but it doesn't requite it.
    
    I have a shareware program called A_B_C that has six simple number and
    letter recognition games. If you're interested, write me by mail.
    
    My (limited) experience is they have more fun with learning how to
    manueaver through the PC than through hard core academics - at least at
    the 3-5 yr old stage.  

    There's another called  KidPix, which was designed by a dad, for his
    kids, because he couldn't find any good "kid" software.  It's mostly a
    "coloring book"/drawing tool type of thing, but the kids have a BLAST
    with it.  It's pretty easy to use, but might be just a TAD too old for
    a 2.5 year old.
    
    Another source to check is "Family Fun" magazine.  In each issue they
    critique various software that is available, group it into age
    categories, and give a realistic view of the software.  
    
    KidPix is in the $40-50.00 range I believe.
    

    
    KidPix is fun.  My daughter has been "using" it for the last year.
    She is 3 1/3.  In the last 2 months, she's actually been able to use
    the mouse.  Before that, She would sit on my lap and make requests.
    
    One of the nice "features" is a STAMP.  There are about 30 different
    stamps that you "select" and then press the mouse button and it will
    drop the Stamp (sun, elephant, butterfly, etc.).  The sounds are great.

    Ah, now here is a subject near and dear to my heart! I am a software
    engineer, so I am extremely biased here. I bought a PC for home when my
    son was about 18 months. For a while I kept him away from it. Then, when
    I got a multimedia kit (CD-ROM and sound board) I started creating 
    little software toys for him to play with. Two that were very
    successful: one waits for him to kit a key, then shows the letter or
    number on the screen and plays my voice speaking it; the other has 
    pictures I drew of some of his toy cars that he can drag around with the
    mouse, accompanied by motor sounds. When he drags a car to the edge of
    the screen, it makes crash sounds, accompanied by some crude explosion
    graphics.

    These helped teach him the keyboard (not a lot, but some!) and dexterity
    with the mouse. When he started wanting to do the car game every time I
    got on the PC, I got a MAC Performa 550 (hey, 0% financing at Circuit
    City, who can pass it up!). Now this was scary: after watching me start
    up MS-Dinosaurs on it just 2 times, he could a) turn on the computer,
    b) insert the CD, c) double-click on the CD icon when it appeared,
    d) double click the program icon from the folder to start it, e) select
    the right option for color mode from the dialog box that popped up, and
    F) operate the program. This was when he was 3 yrs and 3 mos old.

    When he learned how to drag files to the trash can, I set up At Ease,
    which provides a kid-safe environment and very easy interface for
    running selected programs. All I had to show him was how to select his
    name from the user list that appears when he turns it on. He knows how
    to run his hypercard stacks and exit the hypercard player (I showed him
    *once* how to hold down the Apple key and the Q key at the same time),
    and he loves Broderbund's Playroom, which has some marvelous educational
    games. He knows how to run all the movies of animals at the San Diego
    Zoo on the Animals CD. He can identify by name five or six species of
    dinosaur when shown a drawing, toy, or full-size replica, and can tell
    the difference between apatosaurus and brachiosaurus (very similar, just
    a different ridge on the top of the head).

    If you don't believe little kids pay close attention to what their
    parents do, this should be the proof. He sees me click on a little box
    in the corner of a window to do something, and he remembers it next time
    he wants to do the same thing. My feeling is that kids take for granted
    whatever technology is around. To him, the computer is no more complex
    than the toaster, just as TV was no big deal for me to operate when I
    was a kid. What gets in our way is the fact that we *know* what a high
    level of technology the computer represents. Kids don't; they just use
    it.

    I understand the hesitancy to get kids started on computers because of
    games and social isolation. But games can teach as well: look at Carmen
    San Diego. The increase in multi-media brings to educational software
    all the entertainment of video games, with tons of real information. In
    addition to "the dinosaur game" we have "the fish game", a CD called
    Oceans Below. This shows scuba dive sites all over the world, with
    photos of the native fish, and narrated videos of them. So when my son
    plays with it, he is exposed to geopgraphy (he has to select a location
    from a map of the world), oceanography, ecology, and biology. No one
    ever accused a Jacques Cousteau special of sapping the intelligence,
    here is one that can be controlled by the user.

    Done right, the computer is a fantastic presentation engine, shoveling
    visual, audio, and textual information at you at a tremendous rate. Even
    when it overwhelms your ability to assimilate, you still pick up a huge
    amount of information. And since you can repeat it as much as you want
    (because you like the music, or the pictures, or the videos), it is
    continually reinforced, continually adding to your knowledge.

    As for social isolation, the explosion of online services is taking care
    of that. While there may be less interaction for younger kids right now,
    older ones can talk in real time or via e-mail to people all over the
    country, even the world. As the telecommunications infrastructure
    improves, the human communication bandwidth will expand with it. You
    won't be limited by your ability to type when you can see and hear other
    people with full-motion video in real time.

    As you can imagine, I could gush about this all day. Bottom line: let
    your kids start on computers as early as you can. Computers are becoming
    as common as cars, TV's, and phones. Encourage your kids to use them
    appropriately. Don't force them on the kids, just make them available
    and sit back. The results will amaze you.

    
    Isn't that funny .... I remember was Jason was about 4, and first
    playing with KidPix, and I was trying to get him to do something, and
    just blurted out "Ok, double-click on that box" - and before I could
    simplify what I'd asked him to do, he'd done it.  Didn't realize that
    "double-click" was such a well understood phrase!  And many many more
    to follow .... "drag that over" was another!
    
    

    
    is there a "true confessions" topic in here...?
    
    
    re-.2  egads! I understood about HALF of what you said! Maybe my 4 yr
    old can teach ME a few things!
    
    

    We got a PC about 4 months ago, and our two kids became experts very
    quickly.  Some funny results, occasionally, though...

    Last weekend we went to a sub shop and, while gulping down his French
    fries, my three-year-old said "Mommy, why is that CANCEL sign by the
    door?".

    Me: CANCEL sign?
    Him: Oh, no, I mean EXIT sign.

    (This is the same kid who told us that one of his friends really loves
    Injured Turtles.)

			cheryl

    It's amazing how quickly our 2 yr old (on Monday!) is picking up the
    computer.  Sarah knows how to turn the computer on and how to open up
    her programs from Windows.  
    
    Another vote for Mickey's ABC's, while she knows the whole alphabet,
    this has helped her learn what the letters are, she knows oven starts
    with O and horse starts with H, etc., although I'm not sure she'd say O
    if I asked her what letter octopus starts with.  Anyway, she loves it. 
    
    We also like Dr. T's Sing-a-Long.  It's an animated program that
    "sings" about 2 dozen kids songs.  My dad has it on his computer and
    when Sarah stayed with my parents for a week while we were on vacation
    they played it every day. When we came back she was singing every song
    from memory.
    
    For the longest time our computer sat quiet, my husband and I both sit
    in front of them all day at work so who had the motivation, but now
    with Sarah here it gets used every day.  It even gave us the impetus to
    upgrade our hard drive and memory so we could have more things
    available for her.
    
    What a way we've come from the paper tape and punch cards I used when I
    was in school (am I dating myself too much 8^) )
    
    Susan

re: .27  Susan

>>    What a way we've come from the paper tape and punch cards I used when I
>>    was in school (am I dating myself too much 8^) )

   Not really... I know at least one other (myself) who came from that
   era... its just that you were the first one brave enough to admit it!
   :-)  :-)
   
   - Tom

    AJ has recently been "introduced" to computers in school, it is an
    offshoot of Library class.  His biggest complaint is how it is soooo
    boring!  We try to explain that not everyone has a computer at home,
    and some of the kids need a little more help getting up to speed.  He
    has made himself Unofficial tutor in the class.  something that
    frequently will get him in trouble with his eagerness.
    
    They are Apple Mac's, somethig that disapointed me since DEC has
    donated so much equipment to the town, and the French River Education
    Center (which sponsors(ed?) the computer camps a few years.  There's a
    picture of KO and the super of schools at DECworld '92 hanging in the
    lobby of the FREC.
    
    Lyn

    My son's school has 5 computers in every classroom.  They spend up to
    40 minutes a day doing interactive work on the computer for math,
    reading, playing, etc.  He's only in kindergarten (full day program).  
    I jokingly told the IS coordinator that he would be programming before 
    he left elementary school.  Her comment - "I wouldn't be surprised". 

Wait til they have the kids configuring the network. Let's see, K-1 should be
one area, then 2-3 should be another, with level 2 routing between them...

    My 4-year old refers to the "Enter/Return" key as the "magic key".  He
    has been playing games on our home PC since he was about 2 years old.
    We recently got a new PC, and he's already loading HIS software (a
    dinosaur identification program, and "We're Back"! The Game), and I
    still don't know how to turn the darned thing on.
    
    When I look over someone's shoulder to instruct them with a new program,
    I find myself saying "use the magic key"... Get's a lot of odd looks...
    
    Sarh

RE: network configs.

In many schools the networks are configured and 
supported by students (under the direction of a 
teacher or technology director).

Club Kidsoft - 800-354-6150
	
      My mother-in-law,  the  librarian,  sent  us an article in the
	Poughkeepsie  Journal about Club Kidsoft.  We ordered it and
	it looks very worthwhile.  It should take several days/weeks
	to  get through it.  The following is a description from the
	article and what I've seen so far.

      For $9.95,  you  get a year's subscription which includes four
	issues  of a CD-ROM full of tryout Kid software.  (Windows or
	Macintosh).

      I just  received  our  first  CD for the MAC.  It contained 30
	demo  programs  and  42 unlockable titles.  It also contains
	some  simple  games and some audio tracks.  The simple games
	are  cute.   There's  one  with  8 trashcans.  Each trashcan
	contains  a cat.  It's a game of "concentration".  You click
	on each trashcan and try to match pairs of cats.  We haven't
	listened to the music yet.

      There's also   an   on-disk   catalog,  searchable  by  title,
	catergory and age group with screenshots of each program, a
	full  description  and  information  adults  may  need  about
	recommend  age  ranges  and hardware requirements.  Also the
	price.

      If you  like  a  program,  you  can  call the Club Kidsoft 800
	number  and  order  it  by  mail, or in many cases, exchange
	credit  card  information for a code number that "unlocks" a
	full  version  of the program stored on the CD.  From the CD,
	the  program  is transferred to your hard disk.  The article
	recommends  that  if you find a title you like, ordering the
	entire software package by mail.  I don't know why.  I don't
	know if it's cheaper or you don't the extra documentation.

Grandma and Me:

      So far,  one program that looks good for our 3 year old is
	an interactive book called Grandma and Me by Mercer Mayer.
	It  can be read or you can play along.  It will also read to
	you  in  Japanese or Spanish.  The demo just gives the first
	page  of  the book.  You click on various objects and things
	happen.   Grandma  and  the critter walk from their house to
	bus  stop.   The computer reads the story.  Then grandma and
	the  critter  wait for the bus.  If you click in the clouds,
	an  airplane  goes  by.   If you click in the flowers, a bee
	buzzes  about.   If  you  click on the cow, it moos.  If you
	click  on  Grandma,  she  asks  the  little  critter if he's
	excited  about  going  to  the  beach.   If you click on her
	again,  she  says she hopes they don't have to wait long for
	the  bus.  There was about 2 dozen different things to click
	on.   If  you  tell  it  to turn the page, the bus comes and
	grandma and the little critter get on.  Then the demo ended.

	

I believe Arthurs Teacher Trouble is only in English but 
Lauren loves to watch it, along with Animals (about the 
San Diego zoo).  

Arthurs Teacher Trouble is the same story as the book.

Does anyone have any comments on a company called "FutureKids"? I've booked 
David (nearly 5) for a month of 1x30minute lessons per week, since he loved 
the intro lesson. 

Chele

How are the prices on the KidSoft CD? I have a coupon that came with
our Mac, I've been debating ordering it. I sometimes hesitate to
buy direct from manufacturers, since you can usually get it a lot
cheaper by mail. However if the CD prices are comparable, that would
be pretty good ('course, I would probably go broke unlocking everything
on the disk!).

The Discus Kids Can Read (I think that's right) CD of Benjamin Bunny 
also came with the Mac, it has both English and Spanish. I believe
their whole line is bi-lingual. It will narrate the whole story, or
just phrases.

    My nephew just turned 6 and is in kindergarten. Since
    his father works for Digital he is very interested in
    computers. I would like to buy him one for Christmas
    -- something that he could use to learn from - fun
    	games for learning. I don't want to invest in
    	alot as I'm sure he'd graduate to something
    	more sophisticated in a few years. How do
    	I approach this. Are there "elementary type"
    	systems at Radio Shack, etc. for children.
    	There would be no networking or anything
    	of that sort - just a system that he could
    	use to learn through games, etc.
    
    	Does anyone have children who have systems
    	that they are happy with. How much does
    	something like this run?
    
    	Thanks for any ideas.
    
    	Gael

>                     <<< Note 86.38 by ASABET::DUSSAULT >>>
>                         -< COMPUTER FOR 6 YEAR OLD? >-

    My suggestion:

    Find out what the child's elementary school is using and get
    something similar.  (if they use a PC, get a PC.  If they use a
    Mac, get a Mac).

    We use Mac's at our school and I have a Mac at home for the kids
    (and my wife).  They absolutely love it.  I've had a Vax at home for
    years (I work mostly at home) and my wife has NEVER liked it.
    EDT?  ugh.  Perhaps I should bring home DecWrite.  But she loves
    using the Mac.

    There are LOTS of educational programs on both platforms.  There also
    have been many notes in this conf about computer programs for kids.

    'What to buy' is always a hard question.  You want something
    EASY TO USE.  My 4 year old has been using our Mac (all by herself)
    for about 2 years.  She turns it on, navigates to the 'kids' area
    and chooses what she wants to run.  I've got a 'text to speech'
    program running all the time that (for example) reads the names
    of folders (like directories) for her and reads any system
    error/info messages that pop up....so when a program asks her to
    type her name, the message gets read to her.  It makes it a little
    more fun.  And she's nicely learning to read by following it along.

    A basic Mac costs a little over $1000....I suspect that a basic PC
    (color monitor, capable of running windows) costs about the same.
    You may want to buy a CD Reader...lots of nice books and stuff out
    there on CD.  It costs less if you buy a machine with the
    CD built in (save about $200 I think).  You can always add it later.
    I recommend you read the appropriate conference and/or ask there for
    recommendations about a specific machine.

    Right now (for the Mac, not sure about the PC) there is a fire sale
    going on for HP's 550C color ink jet printers....I paid $700 about
    2 years ago.  They have come out with a new version (560C) and the
    remaining 550C's are selling for $195.  Its a GREAT printer and
    having color for the kids artwork/cards for Grandma, etc. is
    really important.

    Hope this helps.
    bob

My nephews, Brian (7) and Neil (4), have been using an older NEC computer.  
It's a 386-16Mhz with only 2MB RAM and a 40MB hard drive.  Until recently, 
it was okay for them.  Brian was using WordPerfect to write little poems
and stories and they both used the Paint program to do pictures.  They also
had a bunch of learning games -- Mickey's ABCs, Reader Rabbit 2, Treasure 
Mountain, Goofy's Express, and 5 or 6 others.  All were able to run on this
small machine.

Then I blew it.  I bought Brian and learn-to-type game that required every 
bit of disk space they could spare as well as more RAM than they had.  Bummer.
And being an old machine, it had lots of propriety parts and was very
expensive to upgrage.  So, the new PC has been ordered and will be delivered 
today (!).  We're getting them a Digital LPv+.  It's a 486-66Mhz machine with 
4MB RAM (expandable to 64) and a 170MB hard drive.  With the expandability,
I'm hoping this will last them for quite a while.  This machine was ~$1200
(without monitor, sound card, and speakers which they already have).  But
check out VTX EPP for up-to-date prices.  In the few months between when 
we started looking and when we ordered, the price for the machine we got 
dropped $300.

						Tracy

    
    I think the best way is to buy a good base system and add pieces
    on over the years, then you don't have to throw things out.
    
    I would invest on a fast CPU, like 486-33 and up, 4 - 8MB of RAM,
    making sure you can add more memory later on, at least up to 16MB,
    and a 200MB hard disk. Make sure the box is big enough for expansion,
    the box usually comes in 3 sides, desktop, mini tower and tall tower.
    Multimedia will be a must soon, so mini tower will be pretty good.
    The difference in prices of the boxes is like $25 or so. 
    
    My daughter is 9 and the multimedia encyclopedia is excellent, saved
    us a lot of trips to the library. The games on CD's are excellent.
    The DEC machines are pretty good, they have all brand name components
    and they don't cut corners.
    
    Eva
    

    re: .38
    
    What price range are you trying to stay within? 
    
    You can buy a pretty well-loaded no-name 486-33 PC for around $1000,
    including 14" monitor, 300+MB hard drive & 4MB RAM. If you want to
    spend more, you can add a larger drive or more memory for a couple of
    hundred dollars. Add another $250-$300 for a 2X CD-ROM w/sound card.
    Another $50-$500 to upgrade to a faster clockspeed. It can add up
    quickly.
    
    If all you want is a basic entry-level system, simply to get your
    nephew acclimated to the world of PC's, you might want to consider
    picking up an old 386-system with 8MB RAM, a sound card and a 150MB 
    drive, which shouldn't set you back more than $300-$600. Check out some
    of the 'for sale' notes in the various PC-related notes files here at
    DEC, or contact the Boston Computer Society. 
    
    Granted, you'ld be buying a system that would be essentially disposable 
    (although you could, in theory, upgrade various components to bring it to 
    today's standards, but the total cost with the upgradees would likely meet 
    or exceed the cost of a brand new 486 as listed above), but you would be 
    able to run most of today's entry-level kid's S/w, such as Reader Rabbit, 
    Millie's Math House, etc...
    
    FWIW, I have a DEC 386-33, w/8MB, sound card, and 170MB hard drive at
    home. It's more than enough to run the stuff my 5-yr-old is interested
    in. I don't expect him to ask me for a Pentium or Alpha system with a
    quad-speed CD-ROM, 32MB memnory and a 1GB HD until he's at least 8..:^) 
    
    Best of luck!

    Where's the note on software for children ? I just spent a fortune on
    gifts for my daughter, niece, and nephew. I know I'll spend more. What
    do your 3-4 year olds use and love ? And what are they learning ?

    Believe it or not, if you have a P/C at work, there are several
    games around as part of some of the older P/C packages that came
    with what was installed or people right around you might
    be willing to let you copy and take home.
    
    I have a P/C at home because I often need to tweak a presentation
    or document based on some late data coming in via e-mail or whatever
    and have saved those games to diska and taken them home.
    
    My kids are older now, but they still play them. I found mine
    ...in addition to Solitaire and the Mine field game you have 
    Icons for..in a file called Sysgames...not icon..just there in
    the list of items in Filemanager on my C-drive  
    A couple of them are..Blocks(object is to turn over blank fronts and
    reveal the shape on the other side when you click on the box. When
    you get a match, you get a point.  When you don't the other player
    gets a turn....kind of like concentration.)
    Hangman...I know, a little advanced, but helps with spelling...
    Pick up sticks...advanced and beginner
    Jacks...challenging even for an adult.
    Just the regular paint program is fun
    ...then there are other games people may have brought in or gotten
    through shareware or downline loaded via Mosaic off the I-net from
    the archives in Univ. of Michgan or whatever.
    
    I know it is too close to the holiday for you to order anything
    from the various shareware outlets, so I would bet just a couple
    of starter games would show progress.
    
    Jim

    Sorry, you asked for Multimedia...I am not sure at 3-4 you need
    multimedia yet. Just the fact they can point an click and
    see something change or happen on the screen is a start.
    That is why I mentioned those other games that are basically
    two dimensional....my 8 year old still loves Tetris
    and Paint and a couple of chinese pickup block games...my home
    P/C has no sound or multimedia capabilities and my three don't
    seem to be suffering.
    
    Jim

    Last year when my son was 4 I bought the following software packages:
    
    Animal Quest & Crayon - from Sears, similar to shareware but different, 
                            priced at 6.99  My son enjoys both games still.
    			    Crayon teaches colors, creativity, imagination
    			    Animal Quest - teaches about different animals
    			    and their habitats and food they eat.  A color
    			    monitor is the only requirement I believe.
    
    Putt Putt Joins the Parade & Putt Putt Goes to the Moon - from Software
    			    Etc. about $35, runs better with sound card,
    			    but not necessary.  Teaches critical thinking
    			    skills.
    
    MS-Arcades - Includes, Centipedes and 3 other popular games which I
    			   can't recall at the moment.  Teaches fine motor
    			   skills, critical thinking skills.
    
    Reading and Me - teaches same and different, alphabet, rhyming words
    
    He also enjoys playing games bought for my husband, WARLORD 2 is a
    			   favorite.  I don't quite understand it, but he
    			   knows what he's doing.
    
    Have fun!
    Sue
    

    
       Try   NOTED::EDUCATIONAL_COMPUTING  
    
       p.s.
    
       I think sound/graphics are ideally suited to a 3-4 year old.

    My 3 1/2 year-old son loves the Broederbund "Living Books" - they are
    mostly entertaining, but eventually will teach reading. His favorites
    are "Arthur's Teacher Trouble" and "Grandma and Me" (Mercer Mayer).
    Lots of interactive play - click somewhere and find out what happens.
    
    Other favorites that hold his attention are: "The Backyard" - has a
    bunch of different segments, his favorite is sandbox digging for
    treasure (given a "map" of what object it's near) and also creating
    pumpkin "faces" with different types of vegetables (silly fun);
    "Reader Rabbit" (more for when he was 3, matching symbols, letters,
    colors, prepositions, etc. - not as much "action" though.
    
    -Cori

    Just FYI...My 3 yr old is enjoying Bailey's Book House, Millie's Math
    House, and Zurk's Learning Safari....all new over the 12 days of
    Christmas. They've helped pull her away from 3-D dinosaurs.
    
    She still enjoys Playroom and KidPix.
    
    I'm convinced she has learned what she knows about letter and number
    recognition from Playroom. I'm amazed.
    
    And, for those of you who have not seen your toddlers in front of a
    multimedia system, don't hesitate. Stop buying all those chip based
    electronic games. Less than a year ago I could not understand why
    anyone needed a pc at home but after watching my daughter I'm a
    convert.

<                       <<< Note 86.49 by STOWOA::SPERA >>>

<    And, for those of you who have not seen your toddlers in front of a
<    multimedia system, don't hesitate. Stop buying all those chip based
<    electronic games. 

Can you explain this, please?  My 2 year old enjoys Mickey Mouse Zoo
and Reader Rabbit Ready For Letters.  How is the CD so much better?

     Carol

    Sorry for the long delay in responding to the previous note...
    
    What I meant by pc versus chip based wasn't based on cd. I had
    purchased a "chip based" game for my daughhter...you know...one of 
    the many intelligent talking games that makre sounds, say letters, etc.
    They do one thing. 
    
    I think that for a lot of people pc's are an expensive item and folks
    don't buy them for kids. However, many buy Nintendo and other games
    which come close to $100 each. My suggestion is to save the money until
    you can get a pc. There's no comparison.
    
    And this from someone who thought home based pc's were conspicuous
    consumption.
    
    

    
    I have a question on CD's for someone who is less than 3 years old and
    doesn't have great control over the mouse.  My son loves the computer
    and if I sit there and navigate, he learns, but he gets confused on
    moving the mouse, especially when Icons change and/or when he should
    click.
    
    We have 2 x CD's for him at the moment, Magic School Bus and Busytown,
    both require reasonable mouse control ability. I don't expect that he
    will have this level of control for another 12 months.
    
    In the meantime, does anyone know of  Multimedia educational software
    that can be run either like a movie )continious) or in Interactive
    mode, so that for the moment I can just click on and it will run thru,
    until he develops the "mouse control" skills.
    
    Also, if anyone has tips on how to help him gain "mouse control"
    without destroying the PC, I would appreciate it.
    
    

have an option for "Read the book to me" which allows the child
to watch the book like a movie.  We have "Little Monster At School".
Unfortunately, it hangs whenever it gets to the page with the ABC's
so we haven't been too successful with this.  I believe that this
is one of a series.

Also, do you know about changing the mouse speed?  Noelle can't
do the mouse yet either, but we always make it the slowest speed
possible to help her.

    We got our pc when Gregor was 3 1/2, and he was a mouse expert within a
    couple of weeks (it was rather astonishing to watch!).  Good software for
    him at that age included:
	Grandma and Me (a Living Book, one of the Little Critter stories)
	Fatty Bear's Birthday Surprise
	KidPix (with some help to select a drawing/erasing tool and colors)

    I'm sure it helped that his older brother was right there fighting over...
    er, I mean helping him learn how to use the computer.  :)  Another thing
    that helped was getting a kid-size mouse (though unfortunately it didn't
    last very long - I think it got thrown around too much).

    Software that he loved, but was way beyond his ability to use without
    a lot of help:
	SimCity 2000 (I think he really just liked the monsters and disasters)
	Carmen SanDiego

    Before we had the pc, both the kids loved to bang on the keyboard of
    our terminal (and eventually to say what letters and numbers they were
    typing, pick out the letters in their own names, etc.).

    Personally, I wouldn't bother investing in software for a child too young
    to use the mouse effectively.  New stuff comes out so fast that there'll
    certainly be better stuff for cheaper by the time they are ready to
    really use the pc!  Meanwhile, just setting them up to scribble in PaintBox,
    or type letters and numbers in a text window, is probably going to keep
    them happy.

		cheryl

My daughter is 2.5 and got Reader Rabbit's Ready for Letters for her 2nd
birthday.  This game has about half a dozen activities in it, including
shapes, letters, music, etc.  She cannot do the mouse, but for some of the
activities, she uses the keyboard, and for others she points to the items
on the screen and we click on them with the mouse.  This is fine with me,
as we like to participate when she uses the computer, just as we sit with
her on the occasions we watch TV.

I disagree with the statement about not bothering with computer games until
the child can use the mouse.  Erin has learned her alphabet from this game,
and probably improved her matching, memory, and vocabulary skills, which
were already pretty good.  We don't play this game that often, every day
at first and now maybe once or twice a week.  She prefers books.

Jackie

My son Josh, 2 1/2, loves the "Treehouse" game (from Broderbund).  It has
helped him develop some reasonable mouse control, too.  We don't have it, but I
understand the Broderbund "Playroom" game, which is similar to "Treehouse," is
also quite good and is geared for younger kids.  Other things he likes:

	Peanuts (from "Yearn 2 Learn")
	Mavis Beacon Teaches Typing for Kids (he just likes to find the letters
		on the keyboard and watch the animation)
	Magic School Bus (although much of the game is beyond him)
	KidPix (sometimes)

What kind of a mouse do you have?  Originally we had a Microsoft Mouse, which
was *way* too big for him (he needed two hands), but we replaced it with a
Microsoft Home Mouse, and he does quite nicely with that.  It is also
acceptable for the rest of us in the family, so it is a good compromise.

						Brian

We don't have CD, but we do have several games that our children play.
Justin, who is 2.6 years old, doesn't use the mouse yet, and likes to play:

    Ready For Letters (Reader Rabbit) - mostly space bar and enter.  Play 
       music, find the sugar/eggs/butter/etc for baking, match shapes, etc.
    Mickey's A, B, C's   -  hit any letter and go to the Fair, eat pies, etc.
    Mickey's Birthday Party - hit numbers.  Choose who to invite, how many
       hamburgers/french_fries/milk_cartons/balloons to buy, which toy to get,
       etc.  

I may be off on the Disney names, but they're easy to figure out by the
pictures on the box.  All the games have one central idea of what to type,
as I mentioned above, so is easy to grasp for a little squirt.  Justin found
the A, B, C's easiest since he could hit almost any key and get results.
It was random at first, then he started learning that if he hit O the owl would
hoot, and he kept hitting O.  After that he got hooked on other particular
letters, and always remembered the first ones.

     Carol

    We have two of the Reader Rabbits.  I don't recall the names.  The one
    aimed to the oldest level we have is a sort of news room.  The kids
    really don't seem to taken with either of them.  

    We also have Mathstorm Mountain (or something to that effect) by the
    makers of Reader Rabbit.  They love this one.  Both the 1st grader and
    the 2nd grader.  So far the only problem we've had is that as you gain
    points, which accumuate under your own name every time you play, your
    skill level gets bumped, and the 2nd grader started getting
    multiplication questions, which she isn't ready for yet.

One CD that my 4-year-old nephew loves is 'Tuneland'.  It's more entertainment
than education but it's really cute.  There are 7 or eight scenes -- a barn,
the kitchen, down in the valley, grandmother's house, the farmyard, etc., and
each is filled with children's songs that get played and silly things that
happen when different objects are clicked on.  There are probably 40-50 
different songs in all.  If you sit there without clicking anything,
it will run through its whole routine on its own.  The star of day is L'il
Howie, voiced by Howie Mandell.  For a while, Neil dressed up like L'il Howie
every day!
						Tracy

    In this day and age of computers ... what's good out there for kids
    computer games (just fun or educational)?  I have a 5 year old and a 9
    year old that I am looking to get some ideas for Christmas.  I really
    would like to get something educational but fun too.
    
    So ... whats good and what not?
    
    Joyce
    
    PS - I have an IBM compatible
    

    
    Fun - Dr. Quandry is fun and intellectually challenging.
    Myst (multimedia game) is a lot of fun, but kids need adult help, 
    the family can play together, you'll need all the help you can get, 
    intellectually challenging.
    
   
    Eva
    
    
    

Parenting Magazine makes these recommendations...
    (this is from an old issue...so there are likely newer stuff out there)
    Most are for both Macs and PCs

Early Learning
    Mickey's 123s
    Millie's Math House
    Bailey's Book House
    The Backyard
    KidPix 2
Ages 4 and up
    Putt-Putt goes to the Moon
    Thinkin' Things
    KidWorks2
    Arthur's Teacher Trouble
    Treasure Mathstorm
    Scooter's magic Castle
    Storeybook Weaver
Ages 7 and up
    Super Solvers Gizmos and Gadjets
    Space Adventure
    Math Ace
    Mario is Missing
    The Amazon Trail
    Mutanoid Word Challenge
    Creative Writer
    Flying Colors

    My 5 year old loves all of the Living Books (Arthur's Teacher Trouble,
    Just Grandma and Me, Harry and the Haunted House, etc.)  She also likes
    the Magic School Bus games (we have Human Body and Solar System). On
    these, some of the games are a bit to hard for her, but some are not. 
    She likes listening to the reports, etc.  She also likes Mixed-Up
    Mother Goose.
    
    We've also been looking for some new games for her for Christmas.  Does
    anyone know where you can go and try some of these before you pop for
    the $$ to buy them?
    
    Irene

Irene,

CompUSA in Nashua has a kids demo area where you can try
whatever games they have on their demo systems.  Although
the grand opening is this coming weekend (Oct. 28), they're
open now -- you just have to have patience as some of the
employees haven't quite figured out what they're doing yet.

They had about 20 or so kids' games that you could try out.

It's a great idea.  And they're prices were good too.
Remember to ask for your Digital employee discount.

- Deb B.

     I'll look at the software (if I can remember) later tonight, but
     one thing that came with my computer (purchased this summer) was
     a KIDSOFT CD - on it they have a catalog of games, broken down by
     category and age group - for several, they have demo versions that
     the kids can play to try out - you can even (of course !) order while
     online !!  

     The good part about this is that both my son (almost 11) and I get
     to see what the info/games are like, how easy/difficult they are,
     how much is just fun stuff versus learning and how much they cost.
     I haven't actually *bought* thru them yet, but I am using it to do
     cost comparisons when I'm in the stores and will probably end up
     buying Amazon Trail (one of his favorites) for Matt for Christmas.

     Again, I'll see if there's info on how you can get the demo CD and
     will post it here tomorrow (or as soon thereafter as I *remember* !!!).

     Debbi

We just got Reader Rabbit 2, which is about Reading and Phonics, for
our 5 year old daughter and she loves it.  We are now planning on getting
the Treasure MathStorm (Math Problem Solving) for Christmas.

  --Cida 

    The Brighter Child Series seemed to keep the kid's interest and it was
    cheap (like $10).  They have different levels in both reading and
    math, although we have only used the reading.  They come with a
    workbook too, but the workbook is not needed to use the software.
    
    picked up a few levels at CompUSA
    

    Do the Reader Rabbit and other reading/phonics software require a
    soundcard?  And if so, does anyone know the cost of one?
    
    Thanks.
    
    Joyce
    

We never bought a separate sound card, and the Reader Rabbit "games" we
bought work great on both the 486 *and* the 286!!!  This includes RR1, RR2,
and Ready For Letters (preschool).

We also have Treasure Mountain and Math Rabbit on the 486 (mouse but no
sound card).

       Carol

The games we have from The Learning Company (e.g. Reader Rabbit, Treasure
Mountain) work either with or without a sound card.  Without one you get
typical "computer" music and sounds.  With it you get much nicer (more
refined) music and sounds.

As far as price goes, I'm sure there is quite a range.  Just as one data
point though, I bought a Media Vision ProAudio Spectrum 16 sound card for
about $80 two years ago.

   re: KidSoft

   Ok, I pulled the flyer that came with our CD and equipment - here's the
   info - as usual, I gain nothing if you join or not - just wanted to
   pass the info along :

   "Shopping for children's educational software has always been a
   gamble.  Because until you buy a program and try it at home, you
   never know if it will be a hit.  Or a stinker.

   If that doesn't seem fair to you, we agree.  We're KidSoft, a company
   created by parents in search of a risk-free way to buy kids' software."

   It goes on to say that 4 times a year, they load up a new CD with best-
   selling educational software prescreened by their own panel of experts,
   parents and kids.  No shareware OR violent games, only quality programs.

   You can sample nearly 40 titles, learn about many more, buy your favorite
   programs by phone and unlock them right off the CD - no modem required.

   Each CD also features "the KidSoft ClubRoom (tm) full of interactive games,
   contests and multimedia activities. Plus, kids receive four Club KidSoft (tm)
   magazines, a colorful, publication full of wacky storeies, computer 
   activities, contests and software reviews."

   To join : call 1-800-354-6150 - 1 year membership of 4 mags & 4 CDs is
					$29.97

    Sound Cards...dont know, I've got a Mac and ALL Macs have
    Always come with sound.  And all Mac software uses the sound.

    KIDSOFT....I joined and was pretty disappointed.  The software
    runs pretty slow off the CD (I've got an old, single speed relic CD).
    About 1/2 of the software was just 'still images' of what you would
    see if you actually bought the stuff.  You have to pay that $30
    every year to get another CD.....On the other hand, MANY of the
    catelogue companies give you 30 day money back guarantee, so just
    buy what looks interesting and send the rest back.  You dont have
    to pay $30 to 'preview' the software.  Just buy it.

    Some more titles....from a regular column 'The two dads' reviewing
    kids software...
    The Lion King - Lumbers, crummy
    The Pagemaster - a little better, underwheilming
    Yearn 2 Learn Peanuts/SNoopy - Weak
    Hello Kitty - also weak
    Sesame Street Letters - pretty good
    Big Top's CArtoon Toolbox starring Felix the Cat - lets kids
    	have a blast making their own cartoons
Some examples of the good stuff...
    Maya Quest - an inquiry into the disappearance of the mayan civilization
    Bumptz Science Carnival
    Snootx Math Trek ----both fun explorations and skill drill games
    Pantsyvania - Holida merryment

    Also good
    Make Believe Castle
    GeoSafai Multimedia
    Jack's House
    Think things Collection 3
    Trudy's time and place house

    More..
    Earth Explorer - rated 4 mice
    math Workshop - also 4 mice

    
    Does anyone know of any good Geography software?  I'm looking
    for something that involves map reading, states, capitals and
    countires and their capitals. This would be for an 8 year old.
    
    Pam

    any comments about Kid Pix Studio ? anyone know the going price ??
    
    thanks

>    Does anyone know of any good Geography software?  I'm looking
>    for something that involves map reading, states, capitals and
>    countires and their capitals. This would be for an 8 year old.

    Have you looked at 'where in the USA is Carmen Sandiago'?

    you are assigned a 'case' (carmen and gang have stolen
    something....like the Freedom Trail in Boston) and you have to
    gather clues and travel to states to find additional clues.
    Each clue might be a capital or a pun on a state or city or
    famous place.  Its a lot of fun...perhaps a little hard for
    an 8 yr old, but with your help they'll love it.
    bob

>    you are assigned a 'case' (carmen and gang have stolen
>    something....like the Freedom Trail in Boston) and you have to
>    gather clues and travel to states to find additional clues.
>    Each clue might be a capital or a pun on a state or city or
>    famous place.  Its a lot of fun...perhaps a little hard for
>    an 8 yr old, but with your help they'll love it.
    
    Even an 8-year-old can handle it, in spite of the recommended
    ages.  You might have to help out a bit, give some hints 
    (having lived all around the country as a kid I'm kind of into 
    US Geography and enjoy being tested myself-- some of the clues
    are tough, and if I guess wrong I get to take all the heat!), but 
    if the child can read well and is patient enough to do a little
    research in the Fodor's or atlas, it's challenging and he/she 
    will like that...
    
    Glenn W.
    

    Oh, one other great problem-solving game the kids (even the 
    5-year-old) became addicted to, if you have multimedia (I don't, 
    but granddad does, which happens to be a good way to regulate it):  
    "Are You Afraid of the Dark?", based on their favorite Nickelodeon
    network TV program.
    
    Apparently this is a very tough one to solve completely; they'll
    have to work at it over some time, step by step.  Finally my
    oldest daughter cracked it (this past weekend), and became some
    kind of hero with her friends at school... ;-)
    
    Glenn W.
    

    I've found that a lot of the shareware games are GREAT for the kids. 
    And great for my wallett (-:  
    
    TaiPei (sp?) is a matching game, that also involves being able to
    perceive a 3-d image.  Blocks are stacked pretty much like a pyramid on
    top of each other and can only be lifted or "slid" out.  You have to
    match them all, and it's not easy to do!
    
    MineSweeper is great for teaching math skills, and quick deduction.
    
    Chinese Checkers helps learn to "predict" things, as to "win" you
    really need to be able to think ahead where all the marbles should be
    to get the best jumps - AND to best block your opponent(s).
    
    Concentration (~$7.00 - based on the old game show) is a good matching
    game, and helps teach "taking turns".
    
    There's also a basic program that comes with DOS, (that I can't seem to
    find on my PC) that's called either GORILLA or MONKEY (or something
    similar) that involves tossing bananas, that you have to use the proper
    angle and speed to be able to hit targets - it's a real challenge!  If
    I can find more details about it, I'll send them along....
    
    And Connect-4 is availabe as shareware too - who doesn't love that
    game! (-:
    
    Hope these help!!  
    
    Patty
    
    There's a lot of them out there, that don't require much money, and can
    provide TONS of entertainment for the kiddos.  

    One CD game that Sarah (and us, too) loves is Richard Scary's How
    Things Work.
    
    Lowly the worm putts around town in his applecopter and shows how
    various things are done.  You can see how a road is made, how to make a
    pretzel, what makes up a tractor, etc.  It is a really cool program.
    
    The music isn't obnoxious and the announcer doesn't talk down to the
    kids.
    
    Kids get to learn a lot of things about construction, baking, etc., as
    well as get some good fine motor skill techniques moving the mouse.
    
    We have a lot of kids programs and this is one of our favorites.
    
    I am not sure that they still do this, but Computer City used to allow
    you to return opened software for a full refund.  We've done it a
    couple of times with a program that had a lot of bugs and another that
    was just simply bad.
    
    /Susan

<    One CD game that Sarah (and us, too) loves is Richard Scary's How
<    Things Work.

We don't have a CD, and we have this game for Justin (just turned 3).  Both he
and Evan (7) really enjoy this game.  Actually, I think Evan enjoys it more.
:-)

Evan also is *really* into The Incredible Machine, which is a problem solving
game.  He is given pullies, blimps, flashlights, lasers, spark plugs, ropes,
etc, and asked to accomplish a task (put the ball into the basket; break the
aquarium; set off all the fireworks).  He is really good at this!

       Carol
    

    Carol,
    
    That's great that How Things Work is also on floppy.  Before we had a
    CD drive we saw a lot of things that were only available on CD, that
    was a big impetus in us adding one.
    
    Would The Incredible Machine be appropriate for a 3.5 yr old?  Sarah
    loves stuff like that and it's almost time for a new game.
    
    /Susan

<    Would The Incredible Machine be appropriate for a 3.5 yr old?  Sarah
<    loves stuff like that and it's almost time for a new game.

No, I think it would be much too old for her.  A 5 y.o. might be okay, and
it's even good for adults.  However, I think there is a variety of games/puzzles
like this, and there may be one that *is* okay for a 3.5 y.o.

  Good luck!

       Carol 

	We were just given an old Apple II C computer and we thought
	we'd let Kristen (2.5yrs) bang away at it.  

	Does anyone know where we could get some software to run on it?
	That is good for a 2.5yr old?  Does anyone have any software?

	thanks,
	Karen T.

    Re .84
    
    Before I abandoned my trusty Apple IIGS for a Macintosh, I used to keep
    up on the Apple // series of computers.  I don't anymore.  :-)
    
    However, the place to try is Quality Computers, 1-800-777-3642
    (1-800-777-ENHA).  Quality is the biggest Apple // software distributor
    still in business, and their main thrust is in the educational area.
    They publish a catalog cum magazine called Enhance; the mag half is
    aimed at educators.  There is still a vast array of Apple // software
    out there, and more is still being written - most of it educational.
    
    -dick

What's a good computer software that will be *fun* for a child to 
practice story writing?????

Evan's teacher and we agree that Evan has a great imagination, but Evan
doesn't think so.  He loves to draw, but doesn't *write* much about the
stories he makes up.  I'm looking for something that will make it fun
for him to practice his story writing.

Suggestions?

       Carol

>What's a good computer software that will be *fun* for a child to 
>practice story writing?????

Look at Storybook Weaver....new 'delux' version out on CD
also The Amazing Writing MAchine (broderbund)
and  Imaggination Express (EdMark)

After looking into pretty much the same subject, I recently purchased
Microsoft's "Creative Writer" for my daughter for Chanukkah (don't tell her!).
I got it because it appears to combine the story writing software concept with
a general purpose word processor for kids (read: fun) and a greeting card
maker.

						Brian

Dang!  I forgot to mention:  I don't have a CDrom.

(I know, I know, I'm a terrible parent.  ;-)  )

        Carol

They do, in fact, have a version of "Creative Writer" that is on floppy,
missing some of the exploratory parts about various writers, etc.  These parts
are supposed to help spark creativity, but they are by no means the whole
program.  If you want to check, I believe CompUSA had it, as well as Storybook
Weaver and The Amazing Writing Machine, etc.  I don't know which of the other
recommended ones are on floppy.

						Brian

We bought the Disney software Lion King Interactive Storybook
for 3-year-old Noelle who absolutely *loves* Little Monster At
School (one of the Living Books from Broderbund).

The graphics are *gorgeous*, but Disney doesn't understand
"interactive" very well.  Unlike Living Books, you cannot
select a word in the text to have that one word read back to
you.  Unlike Living Books, you cannot play on *every* page.
(You should have seen Noelle's disappointed face as the page
disappeared without allowing her to play in it.)  It was *slow* --
much slower than Living Books on our 486DX33.  Noelle kept asking
us when it was going to start reading the page.  On the pages
that you can play in, there are *very* few active spots.  And 
most of them simply repeat animations that occurred when the
page was read.  There were only 1 or 2 really amusing animations
that felt longish -- most of them were quite brief.

I understand that this software sold quite well, but we won't
be repeat customers.  We'll buy lots more Living Books, but
I won't buy another Disney interactive storybook for a long
time (if ever).

I also intend to write Disney and inform them of my reaction.
Maybe they'll listen!

- Deb B.

I believe Amazing Writing Machine is on floppy with a few features left out. I'm
not sure what those features are. One neat thing it can do is read text to you,
in one of 8 different synthesized voices. The voices are very mechanical, but
still fun.

We love the Living Books. We have "Harry And The Haunted House" on Mac. All the
little hidden animations are great fun. I am surprised Disney went so simple.
They had plenty of excellent examples to follow in their competition, and
goodness knows they have the people to throw in some extra animations. Being
able to read single words is almost a must-have feature for any interactive
book. 

BTW, you can send web mail to Disney from the page at
"http://www.disney.com/Note".
(I took a wild guess and opened http://www.disney.com from Mosaic, and there it
was! Everybody's on the Web!).

Well, I take that back, I guess there isn't a floppy version of Amazing Writing
Machine. Broderbund has an excellent web site at (where else?)
http://www.broderbund.com. Their product description:


The Amazing Writing Machine


        The Amazing Writing Machine is a creative writing,
 illustration and idea generation program that invites kids of all ages and
 abilities to start writing now! Kids can express their thoughts in five forms:
 Story, Letter, Journal, Essay, and Poem. 

 Kids can write from scratch, or start with a Pre-written Spin. Spins have
 clickable, changeable words and phrases that are inspiring springboards for
 creative writing. Projects are fun and easy to illustrate with Kid Pix painting
 tools, Rubber Stamps, and a unique collection of clip art. 

 Works with most popular printers. 

 [$39.95: CD]




 Minimum System Requirements


 Software PC: Windows 3.1, MS/PC DOS 5.0   
          MAC:  System 7.0 or higher

 CPU      PC: 386DX 33MHz, 486 recommended
          MAC: 68020 processor

 RAM      PC: 4MB, 8 recommended
          MAC: 4MB

 Video    PC: Super VGA (640x480x256 colors)
          MAC: 256 color 

 CD-ROM   PC: Double speed
          MAC: Double-speed 

 Sound    PC: Windows compliant sound device
          MAC: Required 

 HD space PC: 11MB
          MAC: 7.5MB


                             

Copyright 1995 Broderbund Software, Inc.
                                                                                

Does anyone know of any software that introduces programming concepts to kids?
I'm looking for something for an 8 year old.  I'd like something that teaches
about looping, if-then-else statements, etc.

I know that years ago there was a language called Logo that taught some of 
this stuff by having statements that controlled the movement of a "turtle".
Is this still around?

Any suggestions will be appreciated.  Thanks!

					Tracy

I saw an ad for a floppy version of Storybook Weaver in one of those Scholastic
Book Club type brochures my daughter brought home.

						Brian

    I just bought Storybook Weaver on a floppy at Toys-R-Us.  They had
    a Windows floppy, CDROM and a MAC version if I remember correctly.
    The price was $39.99  It looks really good and I'm sure I'll enjoy it
    even if my daughter (nearly 8) doesn't. I only hope it'll work with my
    printer, since she really likes printing her creations !  I also got
    Math Blaster, which caught my eye in the math section.  Anyone have any
    comments on that one ?
    
    Sharon

    
    We got Math Blaster a few months ago for our 8 year old and he
    really likes it.  What I like about it is that you can customize
    the difficulty of the math problems.  
    
    He's getting Math Blaster 2 for Christmas.
    
    Pam

Re .94 - Yes, Logo is still around. There is a Windows version of Logo that you
can download over the internet. The web page at http://www.ultranet.com/~mills/
provides links to the program, source code (for the Logo interpreter, cool!),
and a book called "The Turtle's Discovery Book". There are also links to related
things like the MIT multimedia lab and Logo news group. 

The files are also available for anonymous FTP at
ftp://cher.media.mit.edu/pub/logo/software/mswlogo

This is for version 4.2b. Version 3.6 is available internally at
winnah::"/ftp/msdos/logo/msw*".

Also check out HUMANE::IBMPC_SHAREWARE and do DIR/TITLE=logo. You will find
several notes and get some internal Digital contacts.

    
    I'm thinking of getting my daughter who is seven, Treasure Mountain.
    
    Does anyone have this that can tell me if it's any good or not?
    
    Thanks
    
    Kirsten
    

>             <<< Note 86.99 by DRAGNS::COGAN "Kirsten A. Cogan" >>>
>                             -< Treasure Mountain >-
    
>    I'm thinking of getting my daughter who is seven, Treasure Mountain.

    I think you mean Treasure MathStorm?

    My kids love it...even the 5 yr old really got a lot of math practice.
    bob

    We have Treasure Mountain.  Sarah got it in 1st grade (she's in
    4th now).  It's a fun game-type of package.  You have little
    elves walking around with scrolls containing clues.  You have to
    walk your character (looks like a leprechaun) until you see an elf
    which you capture by pressing the space bar.  After capture, the
    clue is written up on the screen with multiple choice answers. 
    The clues contain math and/or reading questions.
    
    You get treasures for answering the questions correctly.  I forget
    how it ends -- it probably doesn't, just gets more difficult
    as you answer more questions.
    
    Anyway, Sarah played this game for hours at a time for a good
    couple of years.  She plays Gizmos and Gadgets now.  I'd say
    that Treasure Mountain is a good game-type package that helps
    with reading and math without being obvious about it.
    
    Diana

    Has anyone any first-hand opinions of a kid's software package called
    "Kid's Desk"? They use it on the PC at my 3-yr-old's daycare center, and
    it seems to provide an alternative to Program Manager. Instead of the
    typical Program Groupings under Windows, it provides icons and symbols
    for each kid. They can click on their symbol to display a picture of a
    desk, and on the desk are icons for the applications they like to have
    access to. With only a brief chance to check it out (and without having
    read the documentation), it appears to be a slick and fun way to keep 
    kids' access to the PC limited to the selected applications, without
    running the risk of having them muck around with other system files and
    settings. 
    
    The daycare center is running this from DOS, but I'm wondering if there
    is a Windows version available? 
    
    Thanks in advance.

I use KidDesk Family Edition (a version prior to the CD-ROM one) at home.  The
kids love it; my daughter, who can perfectly well use Program Manager, prefers
to work from KidDesk.  They like to send mail, write notes, use the calendar,
use the card filer, and change their desktop or icon.

In general, it works pretty well for keeping the kids out of applications they
aren't supposed to use.  There are several levels of security you can use; we
generally use the lowest and trust the kids to use the desktop instead of
Program Manager; I'm not comfortable with powering the computer off without
getting to the DOS prompt, so I allow them to get out of KidDesk.  You can deny
that capability, put passwords on desktops, put a password on the adult area,
and a few other things.  (Getting to the adult area is non-obvious, even
without the password.)

Some things don't work properly from KidDesk, at least the version I use, but
almost everything works fine.  It's pretty easy to set up.  I wouldn't
recommend using it for every single application on the machine, if you're like
me and have a large number of applications, since there is only one desktop and
you can only see about six icons at once.

						Brian

Thank you for the information on Logo, Steve.  I'll check it out!

My nephews (who are 8 and 5) both love Treasure Mountain.  The younger one
still needs help with the riddles, but if someone reads them to him he can
usually figure out the answers himself.  They've had this game for at least
two years and still enjoy playing it.

The game involves catching elves who have coins and riddles.  Answering
riddles correctly gives you clues which help you find a key and some
treasures in each scene in the game.  The key is needed to move onto the
next scene.  Once you've passed through all three scenes, you have to 
climb some ladders to the attic to put the treasures in a chest.

As you move up the levels, you have to find more treasures in each scene,
the elves get trickier (by throwing dust at you that you must avoid by 
running the other way or jumping in the air), and the 'Master of Mischief'
tries to push you off the ladders on the way to the attic.

I think that one of the nicer pieces of this game is the way the clues
are used to help the player find the key and the treasures.  There are
three clues in each scene -- for example, "three", "tall", and "flowers".
The key in the scene is hidden behind an object that matches all three
clues.  The other treasures in the scene are hidden behind objects that
match any two clues.  So they might be behind three tall signs, three
big flowers, or two tall flowers.  I think that introducing kids to
combinatorics like this is really neat.

						Tracy

Kirsten,

We have Treasure Mathstorm and the kids love it!  I've used it a bit
and I can see why.  I would recommend it.   Stop by if you want to take
it for a test run.  It does keep them interested for hours!

We also have KidDesk and I would recommend that also.  It helps keep
MY desktop the way I want it without restricting the childrens use
of the parts of the system they want to use.

					Mark

    Does KidDesk run under the program manager, or instead of the program
    manager?

>>    Does KidDesk run under the program manager, or instead of the program
>>    manager?

I think it does either, but we use it under program manager.  (BTW, there's a
new version that is Windows 95 compatible.)

    Actually, it runs "over" and under the program manager. When the system
    is booted up, the KidDesk window is all that appears on the screen.
    Access to games/activities are from this window. If you want to get to
    regular windows, you have to type in a password. My feeling is that
    this is a great interface for kids just starting to use the computer by
    them selves. The only problems that I can think of are that the adult
    has to go through KidDesk and type in the password to use the computer,
    and some games on some computers need to start up using a cold boot
    which would by-pass KidDesk.
    
    Herb

>>    Actually, it runs "over" and under the program manager. When the system
>>    is booted up, the KidDesk window is all that appears on the screen.
>>    Access to games/activities are from this window. If you want to get to
>>    regular windows, you have to type in a password.

It runs whichever way you set it up.  We have it set up with no password and
unrestricted exit, which lets you (and the kids) get out to the Program Manager
by clicking on the Stop Sign.  If you choose just to restrict exit, then a
somewhat obscure key sequence gets you to the Adults screen, which can then be
exited in the normal fashion.

We do rely on the honor system to keep the kids from messing with the stuff not
in KidDesk, but it works fine for us.

						Brian

    Well, I bought Kid's Desk for Christmas, and it's terrific. Easy to
    install, easy to set up, and (so far) bulletproof. DOS games seem to
    run fairly well from the Desk, and although they do seem a bit slow, my
    6 & 3 yr-olds don't seem to notice. 
    
    I set it up so that it launches 'over' program manager and keeps the kids 
    from getting out and mucking around. However, a simple "cntrl-Alt-A" gets 
    me to the setup screen, from which I can exit to program manager.
    
    BTW, I picked mine up at CompUSA...listed for $25, but with the Digital
    discount and the $5 rebate, final cost will be approx $16.
                                       

[going back a few replies...]

Thanks for the suggestions for the Living Books (by Broderbund).  My 2 yr old
loves the Tortoise and the Hare story.

But I have one problem... as a 2 yr old, he still likes to whack on the
keyboard or use the keyboard to prop himself up, etc.  But the keyboard
controls the reading of the story!  Eg, the spacebar restarts the story from 
page 1.

Anyone know how to disable the keyboard in the Living Books? (aside from 
unplugging it or moving it out of reach :-)

Thx,
Dan

Why the :-) in .111? Seriously, moving it out of the way is worth doing. I used
to do that with my son on some program where he only had to use the mouse (and
had developed the dexterity to control it). You might also try either a solid
keyboard cover of some sort, or one of the kiddie keyboards. One I have seen has
oversized keys, and I seem to recall very large arrow keys. There are also the
Nickelodeon and Star Trek keyboards and mice; I don't know if they are any
sturdier or are just meant for looks.