Conference moira::parenting

    Hi,
    
    I used to be very concerned about "baby-talk" with my first, but found
    little cooportion with the rest of the world.  She learned to speak
    properly in spite of the people who referred to stuff around her in
    funny-sounding english.  
    
    With Carrie, I had loosened up, and she was, and is still known to many
    people as "Bear", instead of Carrie or Carredwyn.  She takes all of it
    in stride, except that Atlehi refers to her as "carrywoman", but get's
    Lolita's name almost correctly, despite Carrie's still referring to
    Lolita as yah-yah.  She doesn't speak baby-talk and didn't after she
    learned to put sentences together so people could understand them. 
    (Glaring exception is playing with the doll house, pretend games seem
    to require pretend baby-talk)
    
    With Atlehi, we vary between some baby talk and some "correct"
    pronunciations and sentence structures, and this time, I am one of the
    worst offenders.  She speaks fairly complex sentences (I don't have a
    beard, have a chin" and she seems to be picking up the correct "feel"
    of how a sentence goes together.  I imagine she will come out fine as
    well.  
    
    meg

    FWIW, that would drive me right up the wall and down the other side. 
    I firmly believe in using complete words with little kids. That doesn't
    mean you can't say "kitty" or "doggy"--but Sine-sine and baw-baw???? 
    BARF-BARF!!
    
    I'd be sooooooo tempted to switch over to using the provider's own
    babytalk EXCLUSIVELY when talking to the provider - a taste of her own
    medicine, heh heh }:>
    
    But I suppose the way to go would be to say that you've noticed a
    difference in parenting styles between you and you'd like to discuss
    how to handle it.... and try to be firm in your assertion that you want
    Angeline to hear *real words*.  Though other parenting styles may be
    equally valid :-), you feel you need to pursue that kind of verbal
    environment and will look elsewhere if she's uncomfortable providing
    it.
    
    *whew*
    Leslie 

    I cringe at certain baby talk. Our son started talking very early and by
    16 months had a 50 word + vocabulary. He had a couple of baby "pet"
    names that we DID allow for a short while, ie: bubba for bottle. But he
    weened himself at 13 months and we would then correct him to use the
    term 'bottle.
    
    We have never hesitated to ask people to please refrain from baby talking to
    him. I generally say, "He knows what a cow is, so you don't need to call
    it moo-moo". "Please call it a cow, Cody doesn't know what a moo-moo
    is"
    We have approached baby-talking head on such as we would with any concern. 
    
    You'd be surprised how self concious people get but how quick they
    learn. Also, Cody corrects people who say even try to call a horse 
    a "pony". 
    
    Stick to your guns, speak to the baby sitter...
    
    - Sarah

    I agree with the previous replys. Because Lisa doesn't speak words
    yet I hadn't considered running into your situation. But then again,
    I've notices myself correcting visitors who come up with the baby talk,
    talking to me! "Are you getting her bubba?" Huh? I'm warming her
    bottle, or getting her milk. I can imagine I'd be quite annoyed if my
    sitter did that, but I don't see any signs of it from her. Oh, and I
    admit, I call the dog "doggie" and cat's "kitties", I think that's
    allowed. 8^)  (ok, and bummie too...)
    
    Gail

    I managed to avoid the baby talk simply by coincidentally having a pet
    bird named "Bubba".  Whenever somebody asked David if he wanted a
    "bubba" instead of a bottle, I'd correct them by saying "He thinks you
    are asking him if he wants his pet bird." It seemed that by correcting
    one of the most common words used in baby talk, people automatically
    used the correct words for everything else. Probably figured I had a
    bunch of other pets with names like 'binky' and 'blankie' : ) David did
    develop his own words for things, like "Button" for his pacifier and
    "cozy" for his cuddling blanket, but at least they were real words.
    Sarah

    
    I don't think I'd make a big deal out of it. I go back and forth 
    between some baby talk and speaking correctly and my son learned
    to talk just fine. You could make a point about it when you correct
    her about prounouncing your daughters name. If she continues to do
    it and it really bugs you then you might have to be more direct.
    
    But if you're happy with the care she provides otherwise I think you
    have to balance it out. It's hard to find the perfect situation and
    bouncing her around from here to there isn't to good either.
    Good luck, I know it isn't easy.
    
                            Barbara
     

    Barbara,
    
    There's one thing I don't want to do is move her again.  I am
    real happy with where she is and was wondering if I was "sweating
    small stuff".  This is not something I would move her over.  Your
    point of view compared to the others is where I'm waffling.
    
    I agree and use the "doggie, kitty, and even horsie" words.  But I
    think the line really should be drawn somewhere.  I think it should
    be at doubling everything, as in the examples I gave.   
    
    Angeline has learn "bird" all on her own, and hasn't even considered
    "birdy".  She says "ruff ruff" for doggie, and I can live with that.
    She learned "car and cracker" all on her own.  She is capable of learning 
    and speaking real words, I want her to stay on that track.  When I
    heard, "sine-sine, you have new dypees?" this morning, I wanted to 
    scream.  But the sitter's five year old was there, and I don't want
    to say anything in front of him.  In fact, that has been what has
    kept me from stopping that nickname.  Everytime they call her that,
    he's there.  I don't want to correct his mother in front of him.
    
    I liked the wording in the reply about "different parenting styles".
    That seems to be a good approach.  I'm thinking on maybe suggesting
    she try to cut back a bit on it.  I don't want to say "don't do it".
    
    				Thanks again for the replies
    						cj *->
    

    Also - a good way to start the conversation so that she doesn't
    get too defensive or take it wrong would be to voice how happy
    you are with the care your daughter is receiving, then just say
    that there is one thing that does bother you a little... and procede
    to discuss it with her.
    
    just my .02
    
    julie

 	cj,
	
	I can understand the nickname for Angeline really bothering you, it's
	already driving me nuts and she's not my daughter.  Maybe you could
	start out by saying that the nickname is really bothering you, since
 	it is bothering you the most.  Then also mention that maybe you have 
	a different parenting style but you'd like for the caregiver and you
	to be consistant with Angeline so could she try to cut back on the
	babytalk.  Maybe say something like, "I'm not sure if the babytalk
	will really affect her speech, after all I'm a first time mom, but
 	from what I've heard and read I'd rather we didn't use it.  I think
	it's important for us both to be consistent with her and I really 
	love the care you're giving her and feel so comfortable leaving her
	with you, I'd just really like to try to cut back on the babytalk.
 	But most of all, sine-sine just really bugs me, I know it's a name
        that's easier for the kids to say, but for some reason it just really
        bugs me and I'd really appreciate it if you would call her Angeline
        and try to teach the kids to call her Angeline too."

	Something like this, a soft approach, might be good at first.  Since
	you really like the care just not the babytalk.  Everything I've read
	says consistency is so important for kids, that why I think you should
	mention that.

	Good luck, I know it's not easy,
	Karen T.

    
    
    Hmmm...I guess I'm in the minority here as using words like horse-y, 
    birdie, babba, etc. doesn't really bother me - given that the child 
    is getting a good exposure to normal conversational language.  As 
    a child's language skills development, I think the use of cutesy-words
    naturally falls off and the child isn't scarred for life 8^).   We
    were more uptight about this with our first, however.  
    
    Also, I think that "baby-talk" is some people's way of showing 
    admiration and love for a child(ren) and I would be hesitatant to 
    try to change this difference in style.   I would draw the line at 
    someone calling one of my children a nickname that I just didn't 
    care for and that would be the issue that I would take up with 
    the provider.     
    
    YMMV, cj/

    
    I think you should tell her. This to me is not a "major" issue
    and if you feel you can't discuss this you will have even more
    problems if something bigger comes along....
    

    
    I'm of the same mind that kitty, doggy, etc, are okay, but the real
    "baby" stuff, joo-joo for juice, baba for bottle, num-num for food
    is a definite NO. I don't talk that way so why would I talk that way
    to my child. My first daughter Anna, grasped the English language at
    at a very early age and by 18 months could speak in clear enough
    sentences to tell you stories and talk with you. When people would
    talk baby talk to her she wouldn't understand them. Lara, 19 months,
    is a little slower in the language department, but the words and
    phrases she does have are in "adult" English. 
    
    A side story, my daycare provider, Mary, was watching a young girl
    that was "babied" to death. When she came to Mary at 15 months she
    had never drank from a cup, was still on baby food, and was only talked
    to in baby talk. Exposure to the other kids at Mary's and this girl
    started advancing very quickly. One day the mother came to get her and
    the little girl pointer to a cup and said "Cup, Mommy" and the mother
    was said, "That's right, that's a cup-cup." I almost screamed!!!
    
    Anyways, I would definitely say something to the provider, but as in
    previous notes try and keep it light and stress that you really feel
    comfortable with Angeline (not Sine-Sine!!!) in her care.
    
    Patty

    I would hate it if my daycare provider called Aaron  "air-air" or even
    "ron-ron".  His name is Aaron, period.  Now, I do occasionally call his
    bottle a ba-ba if he starts saying ba-ba when he sees it. (A side
    story, usually when he's mad at me he'll say mamamamamamamamama.  Well
    the other morning when I changed my usual routine and made his bottle
    before I changed him and he saw me with the bottle, but I put him down
    to change his diaper before offering it to him, he laid there kicking
    his feet and thrashing his arms saying bababababababa).  But I usually
    ask him if he wants his bottle.
    
    I do say things like doggies and kitties and poop (as in "are you
    pooping" when he turns away from us and starts grunting!).  I would
    prefer he learn the correct words in the beginning.
    
    I would let her know how happy I am with her care, but I would like to
    to be consistant with Angeline's name and would prefer she use the real
    name for objects.
    
    sandy

    
    cj,
    
    
    You don't want to offend you sitter, so maybe you can just present
    your side of the problem and *not* imply that she is the cause of it.
    So, you may say "I notice that Angeline is saying a lot of double words
    or baby words lately and I wonder if you could help me out by
    reinforcing the proper pronounciations with her when she babytalks."
    This way, you are not blaming her, you are asking for her help. If
    she comes back with "Oh, don't worry, she'll grow out of it." Well,
    you can add "But her relatives have trouble understanding her, it is
    easier for everyone if she says the words properly." something like that. 
    
    Eva
    
    

    I see baby talk as form of love and affection. Love and affection are
    expressed in different ways by different people. Books that I have read
    say that it is good when an infant is exposed to different types of 
    caretaking (eg. mother's tender care, father's playful rough-housing).
    
    My mother used a lot of babytalk on me and my brother when we were tiny
    and sometimes when we weren't so tiny.  :) We weren't delayed in
    speech or development. In fact, when I was in the 2nd grade a girl
    would make fun of me because I used such "big" words.
    
    Although I use babytalk with my 12 month old son, there is no-way I
    could use it as the -only- way to communiate with him throughout the day. I
    would bet that the same is true with your caregiver. In fact, perhaps
    she really turns it on when your there as a way to demonstrate that she
    loves your child and has bonded with her. In fact, you said that she talks
    to her own child in this manner, I would take this as a positive sign
    that you found good childcare.
    
    Just some additional thoughts for you.
    
    LB
                                      

    CJ...
           I agree with the fact that some baby talk is ok....but I have
    even been trying to get my husband to stop with excessive baby talk
    now...she is starting to learn how to talk ,a word or two and I have a
    friend who has a 5 year old daughter who talks horribly and will be in
    alot of trouble when she starts school...I had her out with me one day
    and she was around some other children who couldn't understand her at
    all...and nobody ever corrects her ...her mother thinks it's funny but
    it isn't anymore....everthing is" Me thinks me likes nimnastics.."
    which is supposed to be " I think I like Gymnastics" It may not sound
    that bad but it is horrible ...you can never understand what she is
    saying...we use words like doggie and stuff like that but we try to
    talk normal to her so when she does learn to talk we can all understand
    her...... definitely correct the name thing..I did with my last
    babysitter.......good luck....mary

    
    My turn here...
    
    I'm finding that my daycare provider does use a few "baby slang"
    words, like "dypes", "bubba", and other similar.  I also believe
    that many of them stem from how the child says the word.  
    
    Lauren is now 22 months and daily there is improvement in her speech.
    The "mutno" is now "vacoom" and I'm sure we'll get to "vacuum"
    eventually.  This was not an example of slang... she was trying
    to say "vacuum" and cannot quite get her toungue around the word.
    I never reinforced it by using the word "mutno" and eventually she
    started to pronounce it better.
    
    The point is, when you hear her using incorrect speech, simply
    repeat what she said correctly.  She hears you and she'll register
    it and eventually begin to use the right words!  Don't make the 
    mistake of using her pronounciation of something to make a point
    with her.  Even if SHE says it wrong, if its a word she has heard
    before, she'll know what you mean if you say it right (after all, 
    in her mind, she thinks she is saying it right too).
    
    Lauren (and all children) is a little sponge and at the age she
    is at, you really have to watch what you say.  One morning, while
    dressing myself, Lauren asked me "whats that" and I made the
    mistake of responding "boobies" (note the use of baby slang where
    I should have said "boobs" or "breasts").  Then I laughed when
    she said it and she learned it instantaneously.  Now, sometimes
    at embarassing times, she'll tweak one and then start chanting
    "boobies, boobies, boobies".... I've tried correcting her by saying
    "no, those are breasts" but she knows there are two words for this
    and one is so much more fun than the other.  Ignoring her does
    not do much good either.
    
    This leads me into my final point... "sine sine" is much easier to
    say than "Angeline" and your sitter is reenforcing the incorrect
    pronunciation of her name.  If you don't get her to stop now, then
    you'll find that even when your daughter can properly say Angeline,
    she'll say "sine sine" because its easier and it was reinforced
    as correct.  Lauren no longer says "mutno" because she really was
    not saying "mutno"... it just came out that way.  But "boobies" is
    gonna stick because she isn't pronouncing it incorrectly and I
    reinforced it by mistake.
    
    Karen
                                                 

    These replies were great.  (re.15 - you gave me some particular
    food for thought.  That was a well worded reply...as are all the
    others).
    
    This all brings to mind my two oldest neices.  When Wendy, the
    younger one, was growing up - she always called Jenny "Tinny"
    (having difficulty with the "J").   To this day, and I'm talking
    a 21 year old woman, she still calls her sister Tinny.  It sounds
    ridiculous.  As she approached her teens everyone tried to persuade
    her to stop.  They felt she would embarass herself around friends
    and in school, but she just trudged on.  Jenny herself, as a teen,
    tried to discourage it, but Wendy would not have it.  I still see
    some people grimace when they hear it. I know sometimes childhood
    nicknames are cute and stick...this was one that no one could get
    rid of.  Sine-sine has got to go!  :-)
    
    I liked the advice (I forget the note) suggesting that I heard
    Angeline speaking incorrectly, and wanted to ask for help correcting
    it.  The problem with that is there are only three words Angeline
    is saying, bird, balloon, and cracker.  And she's great with those.
    I'd rather not wait until she does speak incorrectly.
    
    I think I'll approach the name first, with the feeling that I don't
    want it to stick.   If I can put it in such a way that she may 
    infer I'm not too pleased with baby-talk as a whole... hmmm....
    
    I still like the "different parenting style" ideas.  I know one thing
    for sure...I'm glad I waited until I wrote in here before I said 
    anything.  My irritation has decreased.  That will make the whole
    conversation a lot smoother.  I'm so transparent, I know I'd have
    made it all worse than it is.
    
    							cj *->
                                 

   Or you could always ask your daughter to help correct the problem....
   My kids are not shy about correcting people who get their names
   wrong - "that's not my name... my name is... "
   
   fwiw,
   
   - Tom
   

    I was just reading the replys here and I could relate to how my
    mother addresses my niece.  My neice's name is Beth or Beth Ann.  
    I call her Beth.  My brother (the father) calls her Bethey.  
    My mother calls her Bethey.  Even though I am only the aunt 
    it still drives me crazy! When my mother constantly says 
    "Oh, Bethey said over last night "I repeat to her "Oh, you mean 
    Beth stayed over last night" ....sigh. 

    Where in the world did they get "sine-sine" from Angeline?  I could see
    "line-line" [leen-leen] maybe but "sine sine"?
    
    My kids tried using baba for bottle, i would just correct them  by
    using the right term -- even had to correct my father-in-law [that was
    fun!!].  The daycare center called all pacifiers "binkies" so that was
    a losing battle, but not important enuf to fight.  The first time i
    heard "poop" was funny -- and do you know, we still use it and my son
    is almost 12!
    
    My kids never used baby talk per se, there were some words that took a
    while to be pronounced correctly, and then, when my daughter was
    "talking" for her dolls (_I_ can't call them dollies!) she'd use it. 
    But they never heard it from me -- and I cna't think of any of her
    friends that used it either.  Just keep on using the correct term for
    things and eventually your lttle one will sort it out.  But do mention
    something to the provider, I did with the baba/bottle thing, and
    hopefully she'll listen.
    
    sandy
    
    Good luck!

   Actually, I believe "binky" is the name of one company that makes
   pacifiers, isn't it?
   
   Don't worry, it could be lots worse.. my father is from England, and
   he still calls it a "dummy"... short for 
   
   [ warning, this could be seen as offensive by some folks ]
   
   short for "dummy tit", which is, apparently, a phrase that was used
   when he was still in England ( more than 40 years ago).
   
   ymmv,
   
   - Tom

    cj,
    Although it wasn't quite baby talk my son took a while learning
    to say truck correctly.(and he loved his trucks!) I'm sure you can
    imagine what my daycare provider thought when he started saying *uck
    all the time. And believe me we were constantly correcting him!
    
    It took a couple of months before he finally got the t sound right. It
    was pretty embarassing a couple of times.
    
    Another thing that happened which was kind of cute was when he was
    learning to make sounds. He went for his checkup (maybe 18 months?)
    and the dr asked him what does the dog say? no response, what does the
    cat say? still no response. I asked him what's the motorcycle say? He
    perked right up, vrooom vroom. The dr got quite a kick out of it.
    (now we have a dog, a cat and the bike so we'll see what Laura likes.)
    
                         Barbara
    
    
    Like pretty much everyone else has said, stick to your guns about
    Angeline's name and just work your way throught he rest of it.
    

    One thing I can say for Angeline, she really hasn't a lot of
    interest in her pacifier.  She has gone all day without it
    since she was only a couple of months old.  She does, however,
    want it all night in bed.  So "binky" is basically non-existant
    and we don't talk much about it.  
    
    She also is going to be so easy to break from a bottle, because
    she really is not at all reliant on that.  She really could take
    or leave it.  She gets two, or sometimes three (if she's up late
    enough at night for one more) a day.  Those are only formula bottles.
    She gets all her water (with meals) and juice (oh - the "joo-joo")
    in sippy cups.  But she doesn't go at the sippy cups in between
    meals too avidly.  That's the only reason her formula is still
    in bottles.  So...baw-baw will quickly become history.
    
    If only all the other words weren't butchered, this would never
    have been a discussion to start with.  
    
    Oh, the Sine-Sine seems to come from when the 18mth old says
    "Angeline".  The first syllable is kind of lost and the "geline"
    gets run together to sound like "geen".  His mother doubles that
    and calls her sine-sine.  The only guess at where the "s" comes
    from...she, the sitter, started calling Angeline "AnSAline" in
    baby type talk (I don't know why).  When her son started with
    "geen" she started with sine-sine.  
    
    Funny, I can remember when our concern was avoiding "Angie".
    
    						cj *->

    How about all those bilingual kids?  They speak the language of the
    people around them.  Angeline will be like that - it won't take her
    long to find out what works with YOU at home.
    
    And all those nicknames-that-stick-for-life only work when there is
    someone around (usually the other kids in the family) using those names
    forever.  Not the case with you.  It's not like Angeline is going to
    start introducing herself with these silly names.
    
    You've made a great move from a sitter who wasn't giving your daughter
    care you couldn't feel good about to one who is great but falls short
    in this area. No one is perfect - and it's very easy to find the
    imperfections in the people we put in such crucial places in our
    children's lives!  This applies to anyone - mothers, mothers-in-law,
    sisters, spouses, anyone!  If you ask anyone what the problems are with
    their sitters, daycare providers, etc. , even if it's a family member,
    I'll bet they will tell you without one second of hesitation. (Want to
    hear mine???) Some are ones we can live with and some are ones we cannot.
    This is another "pick your battles" area of life.
    
    But... it sounds like you might need to say someting about some or all
    of these issues, for your own needs.  Maybe (as mentioned earlier)
    sticking to the name part and letting the rest go would be a good
    balance.
    
    Good luck!!!!
    
    Jane

    We never -- or very rarely -- used baby talk around our 4 year old, but
    she's still hard to understand.  Go figure.
    
    This is in stark contrast to her older brother, who has been making
    himself understood outside the family since he was about 18 months.
    Again, go figure.
    
    But too much baby talk DOES set my teeth on edge, and even though I
    gave Holly the correct names for words, she just kept using the "baby"
    (read unintelligible) words.  Drove me out of my mind!!!
    
    Anyway, I do recommend you stick to your guns about Angeline's
    beautiful name.  That's your right as a parent, to have your child
    called by the name s/he prefers.  Holly's full name is "Hollis," but
    she would rather be ccalled Holly, and I'm not arguing about it. 
    BEsides, what will I call her when I'm angry with her? :-)
    
    Kate
    
    

    
    I also remember reading that when kids are learning to speak they will
    frequently misspeak because they are not able to say the word correctly
    yet. However they do hear the word correctly. They might say "dink" but
    when you repeat the word as "drink" they realize it is the same word.
    In order to avoid the child permanently using the incorrect word the
    recommendation was for the adult to always say it correctly. We have 
    practiced this with my son.  His day care teachers are pretty good at
    speaking correctly but there are a few words my son has picked up such
    as "blankie" "diapie" "juicie" "milkie" that I think originate with his
    best pal Emma. These few don't bother me and I even thought they were
    rather cute. Occasionally I've heard myself say "diapie". I figure this
    stage won't last as long as we don't really participate. None of his day 
    care pals could say Alex at first so they called him "Ax"  I almost died.  
    All I could think of is an 18 year old kid being called "Ax" like in "Ax 
    Murderer". The teachers thought it was cute but none of them called him Ax
    (because I mentioned I didn't like it), however, nor did my husband or I. 
    Now that the kids can prounounce his name they all say it correctly, and 
    most importantly Alex does.
    

    
    	I don't mind words like dollie, doggie, kitty.  We try to
    	avoid using mispronounced words (aka baby words) in place
    	of the real word, but I don't think "dollie" is the same
    	thing.  I remember when my sister used all baby talk with her
    	first child - it used to grate on my nerves (she still does it
    	to some extent, I've just gotten more accustomed to frazzled
    	nerves ;-) ).
    
    	Andrew's first words all sounded very much the same - he said
    	truck, rock, book, look, sock ... and they all came out some
    	variation of *uck.  We always repeated the word we assumed he
    	was saying, enunciating as clearly as we could, and in short time
    	he was making himself understood.  Phew!
    
    	His one hold out word is banana.  He can say ball, he can say baa,
    	he can say nana, but he can't say banana!  Everytime, it comes out
        "mee mee".  We just continue calling them bananas, and he knows
    	what we mean.
    
    	The other night, in fact, I was telling my husband to give Andrew
    	a banana if he was still hungry after dinner, but I didn't want
    	to say banana, lest he abandon dinner ;-).  Rather than spell
    	it, I said "just give him a mee mee."  Andrew didn't even flinch
   	 ;-)
    
    
    	Karen
    

   Yeah... what they said...  
   
   I've notice with our kids that when they are mis-speaking because they
   just can't make the right sounds yet, they often don't know they are
   doing it wrong.  I remember one case where they were really crunching
   a word, and I had not figured out what it meant yet.  I tried
   repeating the same sounds back and was told that I was wrong - it
   wasn't that I had the sounds wrong, but that what I said wasn't what
   they were trying to say - I needed to repeat the 'real' word properly
   so they could make the connection internally - sort of like an
   automatic encryption scheme, I suppose...
   
   - Tom

    
    Well, as long as we're on talking (and to steal the limelight from that
    cutey Angie-bell! (-; sorry cj - I couldn't resist!! (-;)
    
    How do you go about CORRECTING speach?  I've been pretty lax with
    Jonathan, my 3rd, but there's somethings that I'd rather I hadn't
    encouraged.  Like a few months ago he "passed gas", when he was sitting
    on my lap, and surprised me - he looked up at me, I looked at him in
    (mock?) horror, and said "JONATHAN! Did you FART?!" and he giggled. 
    Well now, whenever he does, he stops whatever he's doing, becomes very
    noticeable, and says "Oooops!  I FAHHHHHTED" .... groan!  It wasn't so
    bad till we were on an airplane this past week - it can be kind of 
    embarassing.  But I can't even think of a better word for a 2-yr old.
    His father wants him to say "poop", but I want to KNOW when I need to
    change a diaper or not, and Jonathan's clear on the distinction between
    the two - any better words out there?
    
    Also, Jonathan REFUSES to call his father Daddy.  He calls him Al. 
    (that's his name - at least we have THAT much!).  He knows who daddy
    is, and whenever I talk to Jonathan about his father, I call him daddy.
    But Jonathan INSISTS on calling him Al.  
    
    Me: Jonathan - go show daddy your truck!
    Jonathan: AL!  The TRUCK, Al!
    
    And if you TELL him to say Daddy, occasionally he will, but mostly he
    just smiles.  He KNOWS who daddy is, and that he goes by that name, but
    refuses to use it.  To Jonathan, it's Mommy and Al.  The best reason I
    can think WHY is because I have 2 other boys who call him Al, and I
    always call him Al, so that's used a lot more than Daddy, but boy, this
    "daddy" thing is starting to get to him.  And then a few weeks ago,
    when I was with the other 2 kids' dad at a soccer game, Jonathan called
    HIM "Daddy" right after Jason had ..... just mimicking I'm sure, but if
    his father had been there, he'd have had a bird!  So, any ideas on 
    correcting that?
    
    On nicknames .... I apparantly lost posession of my brain when we
    picked the name Jonathan, because I DON'T like the nickname Jon. 
    Knowing that Jonathan was too long to stick for life, I've been
    silently getting an ulcer about all of this - until Jonathan solved it
    himself last week.  He can't say "Jonathan", and was trying to refer to
    himself by name, and it kept coming out "Jonah" ... (as in Joan-a) - I
    like it as a nickname, Jonathan will answer to just about anything
    (including 'hey kid!', which makes him giggle), but his father hates it
    with a passion.  ...just curious on how popular a name that is, and if
    anyone knows of any nicknames for Jonathan, aside from Jon.
    
    FINALLY .... on giving out nicknames .... a girl I grew up with
    *ALWAYS* liked to play "Leave it to Beaver" with the rest of her
    (gazillion) brothers and sisters, but she ALWAYS insisted on being
    Beaver.  To this day, she's called Beaver, and I knew her for ~6 mos 
    before I knew her name was Carol.  Even now, if someone calls her
    Carol, I have to say "Who?!  OH!  Beaver!" ...not a great name for a
    girl in high school either ...
    
    And Al's father somehow got nicknamed "Beepa" instead of grandpa,
    because that's how the first grandchild pronounced the name.  Try to
    find a card that says "To my Beepa!"  (-;  Of course on my side of the 
    family, it's "grandpa with the gum" and "grandpa without the gum", as 
    one of the grandpas *ALWAYS* shows up with a pack of wrigley's
    spearmint gum for each of the kids .... I think he'll never be "Grandpa
    Weier" or "Grandpa Don" ... but he doesn't seem to mind! (-;
    
    So, how do you really change the kids, when the kids get such a charge
    out of it??  
    
    -Patty

Lauren (3.5) had some words we didn't want her to use
for whatever reason.  The first she started with was
shut-up.  When she first started saying it, she would
say shoot-up.  So we would take our fingers and start
shooting at the sky.  That would just make her mad.  She
started saying shut-up whenever she got mad and wanted
me to react.  She would fold her arms and glare at me
then say "shoot-up mom, just shoot-up".  It was hard not
to laugh.  I found the more I talked to her about it,
the more she said it.  So I tried my husbands idea,
ignore it.  Within a few weeks it was no longer used and
she rarely says it these days.

The next incident was but/butt.  She spends alot of time
at our neighbors who doesn't like her kids to say butt.
It was hard for Lauren to understand the difference
between but and butt.  My husband explained to her "you
can say but with one 't', don't say butt with two 't's".
I had my doubts, but she understands the context.  If
you say but - she tells you thats ok because it has one
't'.  If you say butt she will be the first to tell you
"thats not nice say bottom".

Funny what works.

    It seems to me that if Jonathan continues to like to be called "Jonah"
    that his parents will mostly likely learn to accept it .. or get
    ulcers, as you mentioned.
    
    I know for a fact that my mother _hates_ that I go by Annie in so many
    places. She has a fit, still, after 40 years. Still, she named me Ann
    after her own mother, Annie Stewart. I always loved my Gramma and I
    always was tickled to be named for her, so I started using the name
    when I was 4. Mother corrected me. I stared back. She stopped
    correcting me when I was about 23.
    
    Rick's parents were _much_ the same about his name -- even told him
    never to answer to "Ricky" unless his life was at stake or something.
    He wasn't fond of "Ricky" either so it worked. But his youngest sister,
    Karlan, actually liked being "Kal" so Mom & Dad had to choose whether
    to have fits or let go. They let go.
    
    No doubt I shall cringe if/when people call my little boy "Ev" or
    "Evie" but if he accepts it, I shall do my best to make my peace with
    it.
    
      Annie

>     embarassing.  But I can't even think of a better word for a 2-yr old.

My 2 yr old says "I passed gas (with a suprised look on her face), excuse me". 

We say "thank you for saying excuse me, it was very polite".   We pay no 
more attention to the situation since I think that would lead to gas passing 
for effect/attention.  

My daughter's name is Tiffany.  When we named her, we thought,
no one would ever call her Tiff.  WRONG!

My husband used to get really upset if someone called her Tiff
and very abruptly correct them.  And he taught her to do the same.
"My name isn't Tiff, it's Tiffany".  In my opinion, this had the 
effect of making her sound like a snob.  So I calmed my husband
down and explained to Tiffany that people weren't trying to be
mean using a nickname, and how lots of kids have nicknames.
So now she'll let people call her Tiff, but usually after they
do it a few times she will tell them nicely that she prefers to
be called Tiffany.  It is much less confrontational, and people
do catch on quickly - most people really do want to please you.
    
Not sure that we'd be real excited if she decided she LIKED Tiff.

Janice (not Jan)  :)

    I guess I am in the minority, my family has always been creative in
    renaming people, objects etc.
    
    I really don't think using babytalk is such a big thing. Both of my
    children spoke very,very early. One is now 5 the other is 12. They
    both do really well in school especially in language. The 12 year old
    writes poetry.
    
    The 5 year old has an extensive vocabulary as noted by her teacher.
    
    I think between the four of us family members we have about 20
    nicknames for each other, that change on a regular basis.
    
    Language and communication should be fun. I guess I would rather my
    children be called by a nickname rather than some offensive, vulgar 
    word. BTW - the kids never have seemed to be attracted to any "bad
    words" 
    
    Harri (Harriet)
    

    I really don't have problems with nicknames (umm "cj"...).  In
    fact, I call Angeline "Jilly" from time to time.  When she went
    to the new sitter, I had explained I was trying to stay away
    from nicknames, but if it came to it sometime, I'd Jilly and
    try to stay away from Angie.   So she knew up front that Angie
    was a no-no.
    
    As far as gas...with Angeline I call it "tooting", and this kid's
    a gas machine!  No trapped gas in that one!  :-)  Sometimes when
    they're especially loud she looks up with a smile and I ask "are
    you tooting?".  She thinks it's a riot.  
    
    See, I'm not adverse to using easier words, or some childish, easier
    to pronounce words.  I don't like the "made-up" words.  I also
    understand she is not going to run around speaking perfect English
    to start with.   Some other notes have mentioned a child starting
    out with difficulty and misprouncing words...that's the norm.  That
    I can accept.  As long as they're working on the right ones.
    
    						cj *->

    I read somewhere where a higher-pitched voice sometimes associated
    with "baby talk" is beneficial to very young children. I'm not
    sure if your sitter is doing that, but I don't think it's bad if
    she is (if only she was using the right words). 
    I believe that the folks at work/family directions have lots of
    good advice on how to deal with care providers. They helped me quite a 
    bit a few weeks ago when I was unsure about leaving my son in his
    current situation. They're great listeners and they are very
    supportive. 
    And on the gas thing -- the administrator at my son's daycare center
    told me of a little girl who passed some gas while sitting on the
    potty. She looked up at the administrator shyly and said "Oooh, my
    bum burped!". I thought that was cute.
    
    Sue

    Re: -2 
    
    We call it "tooting" too!  Seems to be pretty non offensive, though can
    be embaressing.  Lately Lauren is really sensative to smells and will
    ask in group if someone tooted.  We are working on it.

    We call it "frogs".  Then when my daughter says "she has frogs in her
    pants" it sounds nicer than the real word.

	My nephew calls passing gas, wind.  He'll say, "Auntie I have wind,
	excuse me"  

	It sounds a little nicer.

	Karen T.

    My sons call it barking spiders...
    

    
>    joo-joo	juice
    
    "Joo-Joo" is my oldest daughter (Julia).  All of the other stuff 
    fell away when it wasn't reinforced (I generally wouldn't repeat 
    it), but that one stuck, for better or for worse, as a nickname 
    with my son.
    
    Hey, at least she's talking.  Kevin had nary a word to say until 
    he was almost two (apparently that's also the stereotype with boys,
    starting to talk later than with girls; in this family that was 
    very true, by an age factor of two).  But now, at five, he talks 
    non-stop to anyone who will listen, and very intelligently, 
    interspersing adverbs like "actually", "mostly", "absolutely",
    "partially", etc. (no "virtually" yet) into conversation properly.  
    The Little Professor act, but still "Joo-Joo" will not go away.

    Glenn W.
    

    Just a quick update...I took all that was entered here in to
    consideration.  I did ask the sine-sine be discontinued.  I
    explained I didn't like it all and it was starting to stick.
    She asked me "well, what should we call her??".  I thought the
    obvious answer would be "Angeline".  Instead, I said, "well if
    you have to call her something, I sometimes call her Jilly, but
    her name is Angeline".  This went ok.  Her oldest son will still
    call her sine-sine, and she does too, at times.  But I do see her
    try to correct herself, and her son usually does it quite emphatically
    to get a reaction out of me.  He gets a very mild admonishment, along
    the lines of "Now Matt, remember, we aren't calling her that anymore"
    from me.  I have heard him start calling her Jilly.
    
    The rest, well I took the advice of "choosing my battles".  I have
    noticed Angeline saying baw-baw, but that's no problem with me.  I
    really don't mind that particular word.  I have also heard her working
    on saying "juice".  Not joo-joo.  Someone even pointed out to me how
    I say "night-night", and Angeline knows saying "night-night" to her
    bed bunny means he goes in her crib for the day.  Heck, I still say
    "night-night" to my parents when I'm staying with them and never 
    thought twice about it.
    
    So all seems right with our world these days.
    
    I do love some of these stories on kids mis-prouncing words though
    and the sometimes embarrassing moments they cause.  I hope we continue
    along that line.
    						cj *->

    RE: children mispronouncing words....
    
    My mother-in-law told me a funny story about my husband.  Evidentally,
    my husband had problems pronouncing "tr" in any word, especially
    "truck".  The Tr came out like an F.  So, you can imagine the reaction
    he got when he tried to yell "Mommy, look at the big truck!!" (with the
    TR sounding like F).  
    
    Ugh.. His mother was QUITE embarrassed. 
    
    Holly
    

    There's always the story of my neice chasing my parents cat.  It ran
    under a piece of furniture.  My niece stood there with her hands on her
    hips saying "come here you mudder pucker.." and of course her 16 year
    old aunt was trying not to double up with laughter.
    
    After that her father finally got it through his head that he should
    watch his language around the little ones!
    
    sandy

    The boys have recently picked up the phrase "You betcha'!". Only problem 
    is, my 3-yr-old's voice drops off somewhat when he hits the "a", and the 
    "e" comes out sounding like an "i". It stopped my wife in her tracks the 
    other day when she first heard it. ("Chris, come help me put away your 
    trains", and then his reply). Took a couple of repeats for us to figure 
    out exactly what he was trying to say, since it's not a word we *ever* use. 
    
    We've alerted daycare so that they don't get alarmed...

	We all have to be aware. Yesterday morning I burnt the toast 
	and when I realized it, I said "DAMIT", and Kristen promptly said
	damit right after me.  I was shocked, but didn't react and ignored
	it.  So I don't think she'll be using it again, unless I do...
	I guess it's really time to becareful.

	Karen T.

      I am fascinated by the process of learning to talk.  We have a 3 month
    old girl that carefully watches our lips when we talk to her.  She
    actually tries to imitate our lip movement (up to 3 syllables) and
    creates some interesting sounds.  She prefers a falsetto sound that
    matches her own pitch.  It is incredible how fast they learn.

    Yes, I, too, am completely fascinated by the language learning process.
    I have five adult children, and one grandaughter, 2 1/2, whom I've been
    caring for (2-3x per week/Sat nites) since she was born.  And, since that 
    time, I've been talking to her.
    
    I told my daughter from the beginning, that this child *listened*; I
    could see it in her eyes.  I did not ever use 'baby talk'; I explained
    everything I was doing, always; I told her what *everything* was called
    or named (by its' proper name); I gently repeated the correct pronuncia-
    tion when she would mis-speak something.....(this is not the same as 
    correcting her).
    
    Today, when people hear her talk wherever we may be, they always comment 
    on how articulate she is.  It's a joy to have a little conversation with
    her because she knows *how* to talk; even to using the correct pronouns,
    which she surprises me with....and she has even corrected me sometimes!!
    And, it's funny when she recognizes a mistake on her part; she'll smile
    and say "Nana, I said xxxxxxx and it's supposed to be xxxxxx.  I made a
    mistake!"  
    
    Her command of our language is wonderful, and she'll ask so many questions 
    about what things mean, what they are, what do they do, etc.  The fact
    that she has learned so much about speaking has allowed here to excel
    in communicating with all of us and to understand her so much better.
    
    She sings Frank Sinatra's 'Fly me to the Moon' and Natalie Cole's 
    'L O V E'.....(emphasis on all the right words, too) in addition to many 
    other songs!  She is a complete and total delight to all of us.
    
    So, keep talking.......it will not be wasted.
    
    Lorraine

    
    
    My two boys were/are very late talkers.  So late that I took my
    oldest son for a hearing test as well as a speech evaluation.
    He was about 3 months behind on some of the things.  He is now
    3 1/2 and talks up a storm.  I'm going through the same thing
    with my 2nd son who turned 2 three months ago.  He only says
    a few words.  My oldest son does the talking for him.  I notice
    my 2 year old is very observant.  He sits back and analyzes things.
    He is just now starting to say a couple of things out of the blue
    and they come out perfectly.  He just doesn't feel like talking
    I guess.  I'm not as worried with him as I was my first.
    I guess they go at their own pace.
    
    Chris

    
    	.50 made me laugh.
    
    	When I ask my 19 month old a question, his sister answers for
    	him.  She's taken on the role of advocate.  She tells me when
    	he wants more food, when he wants to get down, etc (even when
    	Andrew has not indicated any desire to change the status quo).
    
    	Thankfully, Andrew is not shy about expressing himself as needed,
    	so Emily's advocate position has not hampered his speech ;-)
    
    

    I've been meaning to enter a reply to this note for a while. 
    .3 was the note I'd got in mind.
    
    This story (probably untrue - a pity!) was told me by my father:
    
    A small boy was travelling through the countryside with his mother. As
    they drove along she pointed out the 'baa lambs'. The boy replied
    "They're sheep mummy".
    
    Then they saw some cows and she said "Look moo-moos". "Cows, mummy".
    
    And so on.
    
    That evening, the boy's father went to tuck him up and kiss him
    goodnight, and asked what that evening's bedtime story had been. The
    boy replied "Mummy's been reading me Winnie-the-Sh*t".
    
    No baby talk in my house either!
    
    Jacquie
    

    Thanks Jacquie!  
    
    It's just the laugh I needed today!
    
    ...Lori

    Well, to follow up on what has now turned into a running joke....
    
    My sitter minded a friend of hers daughter last week.  The girl's
    name was Sarah and she was about 4 years old.  Well true to form,
    my sitter (so consequently, her son also) started calling the girl
    Sa-Sa.   She (Sarah) got all kinds of ticked off every time they
    did.  She told them they could call her "Pumpkin" because that's
    what her parents call her.  (Which I thought was a real cute 
    response).   But anytime they said "Sa-Sa", she'd shake her head
    and say "No, that's not my name"!.
    
    Would that my little Sine-Sine (Jean-Jean, Jeanie, etc...) could do
    the same!
    
    Actually, Angeline is so close to completing her name now, she'll
    be teaching them all to say it right!
    
    							cj *->