Conference moira::parenting

    First, let me offer my deepest sympathy to your friend.
    
    Second, I know of a women who went through this 2 years ago. She was
    told during an ultrasound at 5 months, that half of the baby's brain
    was missing. Horriible situation. She does not beleive in abortion
    but was told that if she proceeded with the pregnancy the baby would
    probably not survive for more than 24 hours after delivery. She chose
    to carry full term. For her own reasons, she hoped that the ultrasound
    was wrong and made it through the 9 months. I don't actually
    know what kind of support she received through all this, but I do know
    that no matter how much support she received from friends and family
    it was never quite enough.  Unfortunatly the ultrasound proved correct
    and the child did not survive past 24 hours. She id doing great these
    days and is thinking about having another child. She has 1 son 6 yrs
    old.
    
    All of us who have been pregnant have all had this terrible fear that
    something like this would happen, and to honestly tell you, i still
    don't know what I would do if I were in that position. But is it better
    to go through with it and find the situation to be what the doctoras
    said it would be, or to end it and never know if the child were to be
    born healthy?.......I just don't know.....
    
    
    Prayers,
    
    Sandy 
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

> What can I say?  I don't remember exactly what I said to her last night,
> I was rattling trying be supportive and she thought I was saying something
> to the effect of "You should have quit while you were ahead".  I just don't
> know what to say.
        
     Perhaps the best thing to say is nothing; just listen.  That's terribly
difficult to do under the circumstances. I'm sure that the reason the you
"rattled" was that you didn't know what to say, and were uncomfortable.  When
you're with her, or when your on the phone with her, silence must be very
difficult, but it may be the best thing, if it gets HER to talk.  I doubt 
that she needs advice.  What she needs is someone who will listen to her non-
judgmentally.  Given your own feelings on abortion, and the fact that you've
been able to be supportive before, you seem like the kind of person who could
do this; that's an ability that is rare, and that I would think she is in
desperate need of now.
     If you haven't read it yet, I found the book "When Bad Things Happen to
Good People" by Harold Kushner to be very comforting.

Clay

    Your friend is in a tough situation.  She and her spouse have to make
    these decisions themselves.  They should get all the information
    possible, listen to all the experts and make their own decisions.  Keep
    in mind that doctors are people too and have been wrong.  I know
    several people who's doctors told them it would be best to terminate
    and now have healthy happy children.
    
    My personal belief is that when the road gets tough somehow we find the
    extra that it takes to climb it! 
    
    Good luck to you and your friend and may they make the best possible
    decision!
    
    -sandy (who also is waiting for that little girl)
    
    

    I guess what I would do is to help her give herself time to live with
    the reality, if the problem is really there; to take an  emotional deep
    breath. She must be in the first phase of shock, right now. (By the
    way, that doctor needs some sensitivity.)
    
    I *think* what I would do if I were in your friend's situation  would
    be to wait for confirmation of the baby's problem, then give myself
    time to come to a decision. I'm not the type who knows what to do
    immediately when fate deals me a surprise. I think I would seek out
    other parents of handicapped/disabled kids and listen to their stories.
    She may find it helpful to hear how families live their daily lives
    with disabilities...
    
    Good luck and let us know how things are going,
    
    Lucy

    I forgot to mention that I do know a family whose second child
    was born with severe problems, comparable in type to your friends'
    (or worse, since it is also facial). I have been very impressed
    with how they have come to live with their son's disabilities.
    I know they are plugged into a lot of support groups and agencies 
    in the Boston medical world. 
    
    Lucy

    Just a small comment... A friend of mine recently chose to terminate
    her pregnancy at about the 19th week, and I don't think she had to
    deliver the baby.  The procedure was done as an outpatient, and she
    was back on her feet the same day.  Your friend should discuss the
    procedure with her doctor, if it's an option she's considering.

    I have thought a lot about this note since it was entered.

    I am in my fifth month of pregnancy and I've tried to figure out what I
    would do under the given circumstances.

    *If* the baby just had a physical abnormality, I could handle it. After
    all I was born fully operational and become disabled following an
    accident. (granted on a scale, mine is a minor (if there is such a
    thing) disability). One's physical health is never guaranteed even
    if you are born "normal". Without reservation, I would continue the
    pregnancy.

    *If* the baby not only had a physical but also a mental handicap, I'm
    not sure that I would be able to cope with that situation. I'm fairly
    certain that I would choose to terminate the pregnancy.
    
    *If* they could not tell if a mental handicap was present, I would not
    know what to do.
    
    On the other hand, I'm also not sure after having delivered a beautiful
    son, that I could terminate any child of ours, no matter how dire the
    conditions were.

    I guess that I would ask for lots of confirmation tests, find a support
    group, read everything in sight, and then agonize over what to do. My
    inclination would be to accept what was dealt me as I have always
    believed that everything happens for a reason. On the other hand, I am
    not alone and I would have to figure in the lives of my husband and
    child and how they would be affected. I honestly don't know what I
    would do and I can only pray that I never be put in this situation.

    I have no answers, I can only give support to your friend and know that
    whatever choice she chooses it will be the right one for her.


    				Wendy
                    

    
The following is an update from the anonymous basenoter.  I'm sure the
PARENTING readership will join me in extending our sympathy to the basenoter
and her friends' family.

Carol Stolicny, PARENTING co-moderator
---------------------------------------------------------------------

First of all, I'd like to Thank everyone for the replies...I tried to
sit back and just listen...

I spoke with my friend last night.  She had the second ultrasound and
they told her the baby definately does not have arms and also is brain
damaged.  It has a condition called Hydrocephalous.  Her Dr. gave her
and her husband their options (this is not for those with weak stomachs):

	1) Keep the baby and do the best you can
	2) Have a normal abortion.  This will cause the fetus to be
	   taken out in pieces; or
	3) Be induced.  They will insert kelp (seaweed) into her cervix,
	   send her home for 24 ours and then take her in and give her
	   Ptosin (spelling?)and go though a "normal" delivery.  The Dr.
	   assured her that they will not be performing any heroics to
	   save the baby and they will wait for it to die.

They chose #3.  I have the impression that she feels like if she chooses
#2, the baby will really suffer, and if she chooses #3, she will suffer
and that is part of the reason they chose #3. They also want to perform
an autopsy.  They said that they can't tell her why this happened but
they can pretty much figure out when.

During the Ultrasound the Drs were talking and they said the baby had
two perfectly formed legs and the feet were also perfect and they were
talking about his toes.  The chances of this happening to her, with her
age, good health, etc is like 1 in 57,000.  They can't figure out why
this happened.

Yesterday was the first time she saw her husband break down and cry.
They are both terribly upset.  The Dr told her she has 2 weeks to get
this procedure done, otherwise it's illegal.  I'm not sure why, but
maybe it's because the baby could live on it's own if it was done later?

The procedure is going to cost between $800 - $2000 dollars. They don't
know if the insurance will pay for it.  Having this child will not
endager her life, and that is the only way they would normally pay...but
that's another issue they're going to have to deal with. Plus they need
to find a hospital to perform the procedure.  They know Brigham and
Womans will, but that's so far away.  I hope they don't put her in the
Matarnity Ward when they do this.

I feel so bad for her.  She told me that if it was just that the baby
had no arms, she'd have kept it and dealt with it, but she just can't
deal with everything else.

Should I send her flowers once she's in the hospital or would that be
totally inappropriate?  What can I do to help her through this, besides
just listen...

Thank You all for listening, too

    I don't know what would be appropriate to do when your friend is in the
    hospital.  Why not contact the hospital social worker and ask him/her
    to make recommendations based on experience in previous cases?
    
    I'm sure she would appreciate your presence and help when she comes
    home from the hospital.  Perhaps make a casserole, do the laundry, or
    just be available to console her and her husband.
    
    They will be in mourning, so I imagine protocol (when she comes home)
    is much like comforting and helping any mourner.  I think the most
    important thing is to acknowledge the enormity of their loss and
    suffering, and be with them while they heal.
    
    L

    	Yes, I think that flowers are appropriate as is anything else that
    you feel is the right thing to do.

    	If it were my friend (assuming that this is a close friend) nothing
    could keep me from being with her and talking (or being quiet) or
    holding her hand, or helping out at home or maybe just leaving her
    alone. My point is, *you* will know best how to help your friend (and
    if she is doing this much confiding in you already, it sounds like you
    have already helped her enormously).

    	Given the circumstances, I would most probably have made the same
    decision and just the thought of that makes me want to weep, I can only
    imagine the pain your friend and her family is going through.

    	Please let her know that others care and are sending best wishes
    (if it is appropriate) and please let us know how things turn out.

    				Wendy

    I offer my deepest and sincere sympathy to your friend, her family and
    to you.
    
    
    Bernie

I am so so sorry..  ccb

    
    I am to very, very sorry..
    
    Kim
    
    

    This is so very sad. You sound like a good friend. Your presence will
    help very, very much. 
    
    Keep writing, if you feel up to it.  
    
    Lucy

    
    I am so sorry for your friend. There is nothing that I can say to make
    any of this easier for her or you.  Just know that there are people out
    here who care.
    
    The hardest thing I ever had to do during my time working in Labour and 
    Delivery was to take care of a woman with a very similar problem.  The
    difference was that this 5 month old fetus had died already.  When the
    child was delivered, we could see that he had multiple severe external
    physical abnormalities and (since he had died) probably severe internal
    abnormalities.  Though we tried to talk him out of it the father wanted
    to see the baby (the mother declined).  Although we had explained all
    the problems in detail, I think the poor man was quite shocked.  As
    with all of the infants who died on our unit, we made up name bands and
    took footprints for the parents to keep. (a photograph in this case was
    inappropriate).  I still cry for this little one every time I think of 
    him.
    
    Sometimes just having someone to cry with is the biggest help of all.  My 
    heart goes out to you, your friend and her family.
    
    LaDonna
    

    First, let me say that my heart goes out to your friend. What a
    terribly difficult thing to have to deal with. Whatever she and her
    husband decide, they have a tough road ahead and will need all the
    support they can get. 
    
    About 2 years ago, an almost identical thing happened to a good friend 
    of mine. (Actually, I was a classmate of the husband, hadn't even met his
    wife at the time). The poor guy happened to blurt this out at a class
    break after one of us asked how his wife was doing. She was about 5
    months along at the time. They were told that the baby was severely
    deformed and would be prematurely delivered and stillborn. They also were 
    given the same options that you noted in your reply (.8). This was
    after they had visited a second specialist to be sure about their
    situation. (I'd suggest this to your friend, in any event.)  I'm not 
    sure how I'd discuss this with your friend if I were you, but I wanted to 
    pass on that they had chosed option #3 (inducing the baby) but it didn't 
    work. So, after a (painful) day or so on Pitocin, they ended up with 
    option #2 (surgical abortion) the next day or so. I guess my point here 
    is that if they chose this route, I'm hoping the doctor's will point out 
    that their '1st choice' might not work. This way they could prepare 
    themselves a little if things don't go as planned.
    
    Since we didn't find out about this until after the surgery was over,
    I didn't feel that flowers were the way to go. What I did do was to
    send a card to the both of them to express my sympathy. (Sometimes it's
    easier for me this way than in a conversation.) In a return note, my 
    friend's wife made it clear that she wanted and needed to talk about it. 
    I found that by asking my friend directly or calling them occasionally 
    to find out how they were doing, and then just listening to them, we all 
    became much closer friends. I just let them take the lead on when to
    open or close the subject. I guess my point is, make sure try not to run 
    away from them or their situation, whatever they choose.    
    
    

    
The following reply is entered for the anonymous basenoter.
    
Carol Stolicny, PARENTING co-mod
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you all for your support and well-wishes via E-mail and this notes
conference. I wish I could share all of your replies with her, but I'm
sure she would feel betrayed that I discussed this in an open forum even
though I was an annonymous particpant.  I am trying to slip some of
your suggestions/comments into our conversations but I'm not telling her
the whole truth.  Maybe later I can...

I talked to her for a few minutes during lunch today.  She had company
so that made me feel better.  She is scheduled to have be induced
tomorrow so she can deliver the baby.  She was told that she should
expect discomfort, nausea & the trots.

She is making a list of all of her questions and she said so far she has
2 pages.  She told me she isn't sleeping.  She decided not to go to
B&W's Hospital because she didn't want to wait until Monday to have this
done.  She can't stand the waiting.  I was told the hospital she chose
is a good one and told her that, besides she is feeling very
comfortable with her decision and that's all that's important at this
time.

They are going to deliver her son and let her hold him, and grieve.
Now she doesn't know if she should or wants to.  I told her I thought it
might be a good idea because then she would know that she did the right
thing and not imagined this child to be a perfecly healthy baby boy.
She said that's what her dr told her too.  I'm afraid if she doesn't,
she'll always wonder if she did the right thing, but I didn't tell her
that.

She asked me to call her back tonight because she didn't think she'd be
quite so chipper.  She thought she might need me then.

Thank you all for all of your support & prayers. I kinda wished that she
had a religious background, I think it might help her get through
something like this.  Thank God at least her husband does so then he can
help her somewhat...maybe.

The following note is being posted by a noter who wishes to remain anonymous
    When I first started reading this I prayed to God and thanked him for
    my new healthy baby and for my 2 very healthy older children. I sat
    in my office and cryed for a woman I thought I didn't know. I received
    a phone call last night from my boyfriends mother. She began to tell me
    about her younger daughter. I sat in horror as I realized it was
    my boyfriends sister that I had been reading about all week long.
    I am still in shock, I have been crying and praying since last night.
    Her family did not want to tell me until things were confirmed
    because they did not want to upset me and her brother if things 
    proved to be wrong.
    
    I just want to thank her friend for caring enough to start this note
    looking for advise on how to help. Well I don't know how to help
    other than to just let her know I will be there for her if she needs
    me.
 
    As far as I know she is going to the hospital today. If we just 
    take a moment to say a small pryer that it will not last long,
    and to give her srength, We are already doing much more than actions
    can do. 
    
    If the creater of this note wants to talk to me please contact me through 
    the moderator who posted this note.    
    
 
    
    

    Dear basenoter and author of .18:
    I am sitting here crying for mom, for the family, for the baby.
    It would be callous to say I think I know how she feels, for each
    person's loss is their own, all grief is very personal.
    
    Hugs and support are the best now, getting the parents to talk about it
    if they wish is best. Some hospitals also have grief counselors (get
    their doctor to recommend one).
    
    Something personal: when I first found out about my first baby's death
    in utero, I wanted to ignore the idea that it was a person I was
    loosing. But once I was able to acknowledge Daniel as my baby, a person
    who died, I felt that I could get through the grieving.
    I only decided at the last moment to see him in the hospital after the
    delivery (32 hours of labour after waiting a week, knowing he had died
    in the 8th month). I will never regret the decision, I would have
    wondered until my dying day what he looked like, what he felt like.
    They kept him wrapped up and I saw his face and kissed his forehead to
    say goodbye. 
    It was a very important ritual for me.
    
    Again,
    The deepest of feeling for all....
    Monica (who is having the darnest time to stop crying!)
    

    This is for the creater of this note. Just wanted to know how mom and
    the family are doing. I think we all would like to know how she is
    doing and to let them know that they are in out thoughts.
    
    Linda
    

The following reply is being entered for the anonymous basenoter.

Carol Stolicny, PARENTING co-mod
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The mother and family are doing fine.  All are trying to get back to
    life as they knew it before this tragedy took place.  Thank you for all
    the well wishes.

    I assume from reading these notes that an ultrasound at the fifth month
    is normal procedure.  I have my fifth month appointment in a week and
    have asked the nurse if I was to have one.  Her reply was, "AFP test
    came back normal, there is nothing going wrong so the doctor probably
    won't order one".  After reading these notes, I would like to have one
    and feel that I should be allowed.  Any advise?
    
    cj
    

    Even in Canada where the medical system is different, it all
    depends on how flexible the doc is. Some, thinking that the 
    mother's state-of-mind is part of the health of the pregnancy,
    will give in to any pressure from the mother to have an ultrasound.
    Others would consider it only necessary if some medical reason
    were present, and would not order one on any other basis.
    
    If YOU feel strongly that for the health of you and your child 
    it is important, let the doc know about your feelings. 
    
    Monica

Note that the relevant medical associations do *not* recommend the use
of ultrasound as "standard" practice, if there are no other medical
indications for it.  That is, ultrasound is appropriate when there
is some reason to believe that it might detect something that it would 
be important to know about; it is not recommended just "on general 
principles" or "to make sure everything's ok".

	-Neil

    I think the doctor might "let" you have one, but I also think if the
    doctor hadn't recommended it in the first place, your insurance might
    "let" *you* pay for it.
    
    Leslie

    I had an ultra with my first because there was a question on
    gestational age.  I had none with my second.  There was no question of
    his gestational age, but he was predicted to be a big baby - and by
    comparison, he was.
    
    If there isn't any concern, then I suggest leaving things alone.  "If
    it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
    
    -sandy
    

    Why did the previous noters have an ultrasound then?  I thought from
    reading their notes that it was general practice.  One noter specified
    that they didn't know why what had happened happened, but it was a 1 in
    57,000 chance that it would happen to anyone.  Unfortunately for this
    poor women she found out some awful results.   It didn't seem to me
    that they had concern for anything before the test.  
    
    I am still confused.
    
    cj
    

    It really depends on where you are located, and the general belief of
    your doctor.  Where my sister is in NJ, ultrasounds are done at (I
    think) 19 weeks unless the expectant mother refuses.  One of the
    reasons, according to my mother, is for malpractice suits - and because
    such large number of the mothers demand them.  When I had Russell almost 3
    years ago in Concord Mass, they hadn't planned on doing one at all.  I
    wound up with one at 26 weeks to rule out twins.  
    
    marianne

    My doctor, in central Mass., did mine at 20 weeks "to determine fetal
    age."  Apparently he didn't believe me when I told him I *knew* when
    conception took place!
    
    Due date determined by me: Jan 14
     "   "       "      " doc: Jan 11
    Alexandra born Jan. 19
    
    Leslie

    In Montreal, 2 ultrasounds are done usually, one at 19 weeks and 
    one at 26. Here in Ottawa there is one done at 19 weeks only.
    But for Charlotte, I had one at 19, one at 26 (diagnosed gall
    stones) one at 29 and one weekly for the last 5 weeks, mostly
    because by definition I was in a high risk group, having lost
    my first at 33 weeks. 
    To tell you the truth, each one of them was a wonderful reassurance
    to me that Charlotte was okay. 
    
    Monica

    I think that I could almost set a record for ultrasounds during my
    pregnancy.
    
    Since Chelsea was conceived via IVF, we had ultrasounds at the ferility
    doctor's office from week 5 thru 12 (one a week).
    
    On to the OB who did an ultrasound at week 13.
    
    Another at week 18 prior to the amnio...and another during the amnio
    at week 20.
    
    Due to decreased fetal movement at week 30 we did ultrasounds twice a week
    all the way thru to week 40 (my last one being the day I went into
    labor!)
    
    I loved having the ultrasounds....it was great to watch her on the
    screen...I could have stayed on that bed all day just watching my baby
    girl do her tricks.
    
    ..Lori

    
    Maybe I hold the UK record?
    
    6 weeks - internal ultra sound when I lost the twin to check there was
    still something there.
    
    8 weeks - as above, saw a heart beat.
    
    10 weeks - as above, saw a lot more.
    
    18 weeks - anomaly scan due to raised AFP - looked OK. Had 5 folks
    looking at the screen including THE consultant for THE scan unit for
    the UK (John Radcliffe in Oxford).  The baby had a great time showing
    her bottom to these folks!!
    
    20 weeks - repeat of week 18 - all OK (at this point we went ahead with 
    decorating the baby's room and buying baby gear).
    
    37 weeks - cannot locate head on small scan to see if ready to engage,
    so have huge scan in daycare unit. Detect transverse breech with arm
    over her head. I loved this scan - the baby was saying, I'm ready, but
    stuck, get me out!!
    
    37.5 weeks - repeat of 37 weeks - has not moved, go ahead with planned
    c-section on at 38.5 weeks.
    
    I found having a scan very comforting. In my case in proved I was still
    pregnant after the loss of the twin as there was a healthy sac in
    place. Once I had seen the heartbeat, I fell in love with the little
    bundle of cells :-)
    
    The later scans proved all was well inspite of the high AFP and showed
    her position which made a vaginal delivery impossible. I am so glad
    they detected her position before I went into labour!! 
    
    The 18 and 20 week scans are the first photos in Rebecca's album!! 
    
    Scans are common practice in the UK - think you have to say if you
    DON'T want one. It's a great experience and makes the baby seem a lot
    more real if you have not felt movement yet and only have a tiny bump!!
    
    If it's offered, I'd go for it!
    
            Celia
    

    I think they are standard here also.  Seems everybody has at least one
    to confirm the age.  In my case it was very fortunate because it also
    diagnosed the placenta gravia condition that I had.  That condition
    along with the fact that Dirk was breech and the fact that I had a
    borderline hip separation decided the caesarian that I had.  I doubt
    they would have seen that without the ultrasound.
    
    Cheryl

Many practices here in New England are pretty conservative when it comes to
giving ultrasounds.  I am on my second pregnancy - with my second set of Drs.  
Both practices had a policy of NOT giving ultrasounds unless there was some 
medical reason to do so. The reason given at both practices was 

    "Although there is absolutely no medical evidence that ultrasounds are 
     dangerous to mother or child - neither is there absolute proof that they    
     are safe.  We see no reason to run an unnecessary test - only to find out 
     in 10 or 20 years that there were, indeed, harmful side-effects unknown 
     at the time"

Of course - both practices were pretty liberal about what they considered
"necessary" reasons for giving an ultrasound.  They frequently ordered an
ultrasound just because they weren't sure about gestational age.  And ANY
hint of problem (AFP test results slightly out of range) guaranteed an
ultrasound.

If you really feel strongly that you want an ultrasound - by all means push 
for one.  As a previous noter replied - the worst that can happen is that
you have to pay for it yourself.  But my guess is that your doctors haven't
ordered one because they really believe you and your baby are in excellent
condition.

- Carol

    
    The doctors' practice that delievered my son was adamantly against 
    giving ultrasounds as standard operating procedure.  They did not
    believe in billing insurance companies for "unnecessary" procedures 
    (now that was a refreshing change!).   However, if there was any
    hint that the expectant mother was uptight about the progress of 
    the pregnancy, they would do an ultrasound to ease her fears.  
    
    Of course, this is the same practice that did NOT induce me 24 hours
    after my water broke but waited it out to see if I would go into 
    labor on my own - which I did 3 days later!   Their thinking was that
    the incidence of C-sections goes up dramatically with induction so,
    in the absense of infection, preferred to let nature take its course..
    oops, sorry to digress!
    
    Carol

I had an ultrasound at 7 weeks to see how many babies there were since I
got my twins via GIFT (could have been triplets!).  I had another one done
at 12 weeks because I had some serious spotting which turned out to be
abrasion on the vaginal wall due to the progesterone suppositories (why
don't they tell you that's a side effect of the progesterone).  Since I
was having twins, I had another one at 20 weeks to check on their growth
as the doctor wanted to be sure they were growing at the same rate, and I
was scheduled for another at around 28 weeks for the same reason, but I
delivered instead. I also had an ultrasound in the hospital the day after
my water broke to check on the babies and see if they had to take them,
or if I could try to hold out.  That turned out to be the day before I
delivered.

I also had an ultrasound during delivery to watch the second twin to 
see where he was and why he wasn't coming out.  Turned out he decided
he wanted to stay, and although he had been in the correct position for
a natural delivery, folded up once Jessica had left, and had to be 
delivered via C-section.

I understand that ultrasounds are more common for high-risk pregnancies
such as those gotten through IVF or GIFT, or where there are more than
1 baby, or if the doctor has a reason to be concerned and looks for
something.  They don't seem to be a matter of course if the pregnancy
has no problems. 

Cathy

I had two ultrasounds with each pregnancy because I had
amniocentesis with both.  They did one to determine how
old they were, and the second was during the actual
amnio.

However, with Elise (the first), I developed Pregnancy 
Induced Hypertension, and was put on bed rest for 5 weeks.
During that time, Elise was at risk because the
PIH ("official" terminology for high blood pressure
during pregnancy) stresses the placenta and they
kept checking it to make sure Elise was still getting
enough support from it.  So all total, I had about
8 ultrasounds with Elise.  The ultrasounds were in
addition to weekly non-stress tests.

Personally, I got pretty good at reading the ultrasound
monitor, and the doctor who would run in for 30 seconds
during it was good about explaining what he saw and how
he could tell the placenta and cord were ok.  By the
end, I was able to see how the placenta and cord were
aging (at a normal rate).

With Sarah (the second), the only ultrasound was
the one to determine gestation, and then again
during amnio.

A slight digression:  lest this be confusing, both babies
were completely normal, I did the
amnios because of my age - I was 40 when Sarah was born.

Another digression:  I have read somewhere, but can't
remember where, that fetus aging by ultrasound has
been shown to be statistically no more accurate than 
the mother's calculation and the doctor's wheel.  I
will try to remember where I read this.

Pat

	Carol,

	I was going to say the same thing (undue burden on medical
	insurance).  

	Ultra-sounds are useful and can be comforting and enjoyable
	(I had three, one to check for twins, one because of bleeding
	at 28 weeks, and one just before induction, to be sure we weren't
	wasting our time on a baby too big to deliver vaginally).

	However, we all pay for these ultrasounds one way or another.
	If we don't pay for them directly, we'll be paying for them 
	through increased weekly payments to our HMO's or insurance
	companies.  I'd say if there's no indicated need, skip it.

	Karen

    
    With my first pregnancy I had one at 11 weeks to check on dates/age,
    at 12 weeks I started spotting. After waiting and numerous blood
    tests they did another one at 15 weeks to check on things and there
    was no baby.
    
    With my second pregnancy I went with a different practice that
    specialized in OB/GYN. They had small sonogram machines in the office.
    At my 10 week appt. we looked at things to give me peace of mind.
    At ~36-38 weeks they did another to check on the position of the baby.
    Both of these were done in the office and I didn't have to drink any
    water. I thought it was much better than the big ultrasound done in
    the hospital since I wasn't uncomfortably bloated.
    
    Patty

    
    FYI,  The bill for my ultrasound was $350.00 (which was picked up 
    my insurance) because they were checking a problem at 8 weeks 
    (looking for the heartbeat because I was spotting).  I thought the 
    ultrasound was really cool (because we did see the heartbeat).  
    It was not done as regular practice but they were pretty liberal
    if you really wanted it done.
                                

    What is the difference between an ultrasound and sonogram?
    
    cj
    

Same procedure, just a different name.  I think that ultrasounds used
to be called sonograms when they first came out, and the name changed
somewhere along the line.  I don't believe there is any difference.

    
    Yes, I guess they do the same thing, but I didn't have to drink any
    water at all before the ones I had done in the doctor's office. I had
    always thought you had to drink the water to make things look right.
    Maybe the technology has advanced enough that they don't need you to
    drink anymore. 
    
    Patty

    
    I had an ultrasound at 18 weeks, and I was supposed to drink the water. 
    I did, and part way through the ultra-sound, I was *SO* uncomfortable
    the tech let me up to go the bathroom.  She finished it with me having
    an empty bladder, and it REALLY didn't seem to matter.
    
    The reason for the water, I've been told, is because when your bladder
    is full, it puts the baby in a better position for them to see.  
    
    I also had one done at 17 weeks, with an amnio, and I didn't need to
    drink any water, and they could see the baby fine, could see the heart
    beating, and we were even counting fingers.  I'm not convinced that the
    water makes much difference.
    
    AND, I had one done at 12 weeks to check for a heartbeat, again I
    didn't need to drink the water, and again, they could see everything
    fine.  Perhaps it's not REALLY necessary?
    
    BTW -The amnio/ultrasound at 17 weeks was because of a low AFP (test
    came out fine, Thank God!), and at 18 weeks was because I'm diabetic,
    and they wanted to do a "high risk" ultrasound to check major organ
    development.
    
    Good Luck!
    Patty

The water is needed only for early ultrasounds, because the
fetus is so small.  A full bladder pushes against the uterus
and stretches the wall slightly, which makes the fetus kind
of pop up on the surface.  (As explained to me by the
ultrasound technician).

Of course, that doesn't work if the fetus is implanted at
the top (the fundus, between the input openings of the
fallopian tubes).

Later in the pregnancy, the baby is fairly obvious :-)

Pat

    Owing to all my problems trying to get pregnant, my specialist gave
    me an ultrasound at 6 weeks, just after I found out I was pregnant, 
    to see was Daniel in the right position.   He then gave me ultrasounds
    at 10 and 12 weeks.   After that he put me under the care of a 
    regular gyn and I had my next ultrasound at 18 weeks.   No more till
    I was 42 weeks, the day before I was induced, and eventually had a
    c-section.
    
    
    Bernie

    re .45, the fundus is the *bottom* of any given organ...
    
    Leslie

    Well, I just got back from my fifth month appointment and the doctor
    said NO to an ultrasound.  He says that (and showed a letter from the
    President confirming also) that Harvard Community Health Plan (HMO)
    will not cover unless there is a specific need for one.  He said that
    because I am gaining the appropriate amount of weight and have a strong
    heartbeat that there should be no need to waste the insurance money.
    He also stated that they are unsure if ultrasounds will cause damage. 
    He mentioned that in ten years who knows if some grown boys and girls
    will have hearing and eye damage.
    
    I am still not pleased with the results, but what else can I do?
    
    cj
    

    That comment from the doctor about possible harm in ten years from 
    ultrasounds seems irresponsible to me. Would he have said those words 
    to someone whose medical situation required lots of ultrasounds? I'd 
    like to hear his reasons for such a comment. Sounds like he should have 
    stuck to the cost/benefit aspect of the decision.
    
    Sorry for the tangent.
    
    Lucy  

re: .48

I have Harvard too and when I was in for my 8 week appointment, the Dr
told me that they don't do ultrasounds routinely but that I could request
one.  I had intended to request one at around 18-20 weeks.

Is this a new policy that just went into effect?  I have my 12 week appt
tonight (and will hopefully hear the heartbeat) so I'll have to ask about
this!

Karen

    
    Move to the UK while we still have a Free Health Service :-)
    
    Saying that in 10 years damage to ears etc may be found is a complete
    red herring. Ultra-sound has been used for years both in and outside the 
    medical field with no known side-effects.
    
            Celia (who is mighty glad she lives the other side of the pond) 
            

re: .48

I was at Harvard in Southboro last night and asked about ultrasound.  I
got no indication that the policy had changed.  That doesn't necessarily
mean anything since Southboro Medical group serves other than just Harvard
and I think I forgot to mention that Harvard was my HMO.  

Karen

    Lucy - I agree with you about the comment.  I had two ultrasounds done
    in October because of a cyst on my ovary and nothing was mentioned
    about possible problems ... course I wasn't pregnant either.  
    
    I am going to call the Harvard Community Health Plan today.  I was told
    that he, my doctor, had no problem doing one but that I would have to
    pay because its the insurance that isn't allowing them anymore.
                
    Karen, I didn't see the date on memo regarding the policy in
    ultrasounds.  However, I have talked to other women who recently had
    children in the last year and they did warn me about the changes with
    insurance and ultrasounds.
    
    cj  

    I had 2 (or was it 3???) ultrasounds almost 18 years ago.... and have a
    perfectly healthy daughter... who, by the way, has no physical problems
    from the ultrasound either!
    
    M-L