Conference moira::parenting

    
    I think your son is old enough to know what "time out" is.  If you
    don't want terrible twos to keep going, you've got to lay down some
    ground rules.  The next time your son starts this behavior, I suggest
    that you tell him (calmly) that this is unacceptable behavior and if he
    does not stop then he will have to go in "time out".  If it continues,
    then follow through with your threat.  But start the time out for a
    short period of time (one minute?).  Now, your son may even throw a
    bigger tantrum, but stick to your guns.  When my daughter was that age
    I started having her stand in a corner for one minute --- she would
    scream, but she stayed there.  When the time was up, I would take her
    hand and sit down and explain to her what the inappropriate behavior
    was, why it was inappropriate, asked her to try not to do it again, and
    if it she acted up again then the time out would be longer next time. 
    Then I would give her a hug and a kiss and tell her that I loved her
    (this is probably the most important step).  
    
    I have been very lucky with my daughter, and I rarely had to have her
    go in time out after that, and if she did, I followed the same
    procedure.  The main thing is to try to get across to the child that
    he/she is not bad, but the *behavior* was *unacceptable*, and tell the
    what the consequences of the behavior will be when he/she acts out. 
    The most important step in the end is to hug the child and reaffirm
    your love to the child, so that he/she does not think that your love
    has stopped because of the behavior.  Believe me, I have heard my share
    of "you don't love me anymore", and try my darndest to re-affirm my
    love for my daughter (kids can put you on a guilt trip).
    
    Now, I do not know whether or not this will work with your son, but it
    worked with me -- this is a tough age, and you have to put your foot
    down, or the child will end up controlling you -- this is their testing
    age, to see what they can get away with.
    
    Good Luck
    Debby
    

    My daughter is also 19 months old. But my problem is when I change her
    diaper. She runs when she see's me coming with a diaper in may hand,
    and once I get her on the bed to change her she squirms like you
    wouldn't believe, screaming, "NO NO!"  Sometimes I have to literally
    pin her down with one hand and close the diaper with the other. I tried
    letting her run around bare bottom instaed of forcing her to have it
    changed, but when the time comes that I do change it she goes through
    the same ritual. That's about the only time she throws a tantrum. 
    
    Does this sound like maybe she's ready for potty training?  
    
     Sandy

I found the PRE-terrible two's to be much more difficult than the ACTUAL
terrible two's!  18-24 months of age was the PITS!  After Juli turned 2,
she seemed to "better understand" reasoning, limits, expectations, etc.
and she was much more communicative about her needs/wants.

We found giving her some choices worked  (e.g. "do you want milk or juice?")
and finding grey areas to work from (e.g. you can have that "treat" AFTER you
eat your dinner") helped defuse some of the frustrations and temper tantrums.
Sometimes I think Juli reacts negatively because she believes we are non-
responsive to her wants/needs, when, in fact, we don't always know her wants/
needs (milk vs. juice, for example).

I also try to "work" with Juli vs. battling Juli.  I found giving her a book
to read during diaper/clothes changes helped ... get her involved in singing
a song with you when she's getting fussy ... get her involved with what you
HAVE to do (as many times a 2-year-old is "fighting" for "devote attention",
so by getting them involved solves their problem while allowing you to get
the task done -- although it now takes longer!!! -- e.g. getting clothes out
of the dryer so you can fold them, etc.).

After 2, they tend to play "independently" more  (give them crayons, paper,
kid's scissors, puzzle-like toys, blocks, etc.).  If you're cooking, drag the
toys into the kitchen.  Do LOTS of talking and singing with them.

During a fit, I'd try to find out what the problem is.  Hold their hands and
make eye contact "what's the matter?  you don't like these pants?  well, if
you don't wear them, the rain will make your legs cold and wet?  Oh, pants are
OK ... will you help me put your socks on? ... good! ... thanks, Honey" ...
often you can walk them out of a fit just by talking to them ... they actually
believe you're interested in "their problem" and "getting results" (when half
the time you never did identify the problem, let alone solve it! ... they just
believe you did!).

Sometimes I'll give in ... let her pick another jacket if she WILL wear her
hat.  Read a short story if she's good about getting dressed (or whatever!).

And then there are those times when s/he will have an UNCONTROLLABLE fit and
nothing you say/do helps ... that's when a chair in the middle of the room is
effective (after the chair warning went unheeded).  I let her scream, dance,
cartwheel, cry ... do anything she wants in the chair providing 1) she NEVER
dare leave the chair SEAT; and 2) she can leave the chair AFTER she calms down
and not a moment sooner.  (Juli is 2-1/2 and has NEVER left the chair without
permission ... she really fears the consequences of that.)  We only have to
use the "chair" about 2-3 times weekly and Juli calms down within 1-3 minutes.
I've never had to send her to her room or bed and we've never spanked or
slapped ... there have been a VERY FEW one-little-swats on the diapers before
the pre-two's.  At 18-20 months of age, we started the "chair" and it's been
extremely effective (and not often used).

If Juli's angry and frustrated over something she's doing ... I stop and help
her.  If she throws a toy in anger, I put the toy up for a while.

Once I figured out what triggered the fits (and the pre-warning signs), I
could implement a defusion plan.  If defusion didn't work, I tried to reason/talk
her out of the fit.  If that didn't work ... then came the chair and Juli now has
to get herself out of the fit.

Some parents let the kid(s) kick and scream the fit out, but that kind of 
scares (and frustrates!!) me.  I had hoped by working with Juli to help
defuse it ... or teach HER to defuse it ... would help to shorten (or remove!)
fits from her behavior pattern (and I have seen progress in Juli).  
Ignoring Juli's fits only increased her frustration and anger and fueled the
fits to be more intense, longer and more often.

Every kid and every parent is different ... you know your treshold, your
expectations and child's reaction(s).

At 2, they are trying to be independent and make/control their own choices.
I tried to allow Juli to make choices on things that really didn't matter
(juice vs. milk, blue sneakers vs. red shoes, what to eat, etc.) ... and then
I held the reins for those things which I couldn't concede on (and Juli was
more receptive knowing I wasn't refusing and fighting her on everything).

I have actually enjoyed the 2's!!!!  So hang in there, I saw a vast improvement
from pre-two's to real two's!

Dottie

    
    I think a 19 month old understands a "time out".  I have a 20 month old
    who has received time outs.  But, he receives them for things like
    biting or pulling his brothers hair etc.  He sits in a chair for a
    minute or so.  When it is something like, they fight you on dressing,
    putting on shoes etc., what works best for us is to distract him with
    something so he will let me do it.  Or sometimes I will just wait a few
    minutes and try again.  I will give him a book, brush, toy, or while he
    is watching Sesame Street.  I'm not sure they would understand being
    given a timeout because of resisting shoes being put on, this sounds
    more like a control issue.  Maybe it would work, but I choose the
    timeouts for the other types of incidents mentioned above - otherwise
    he might be in the chair 1/2 a day :)
    
    good luck!
    elizabeth
    

    My little girl is 2.5 and we've had our fair share of the "terrible twos".
  She's into the age where she wants to dress herself.  This is a very slow
  and painful process.  The best way to get this done for me is to encourage
  her to do it herself.  I'll give her her pants and say "here, you do it".
  We went thru the shoe stage as well, when she would refuse to put her
  shoes on.  I usually got around this by saying, well we can't go outside
  without our shoes on... Don't you want to go outside?  or something to
  that effect.  I try to encourage her independence and allow her to make
  choices whenever possible, but I'm also very firm on those things that
  aren't flexible.   I've also found that distraction can work whenever
  she is throwing a temper tantrum because she didn't get something she
  wants. I can usually distract her from it by changing the subject.  There
  have been some occasions where none of the above worked and thats when
  we went to timeout.  Timeout for us consist of going to her room.  I'll
  put her in her room and tell her that when she settles down she can come
  out.  The maximum time she has ever stayed in timeout has been about 
  5 minutes and it really works wonderfully.  I'll go back to her room
  and she'll hug me and tell me she's sorry and we'll kiss and tell each
  other we love each other and all is well.    

   Lisa

    Several of the replies here are beginning to distinguish between
    inappropriate behavior, like biting and hitting, and the need for
    little ones to begin to exert some control over their environment, like
    getting dressed.  I believe there is a big difference between the two.
    
    My 20 month old daughter is doing many of the same things mentioned by
    the other mothers - not wanting to get dressed, not wanting to get a
    diaper change, etc.  I find her more interested if I let her try to do
    it herself first, then distract her so I can finish.  This is not
    inappropriate behavior, but their way of learning to do things for
    themselves.  Of course, if it's Saturday morning and it doesn't matter
    if it takes 45 minutes to get dressed, instead of a weekday when time
    is critical, we can easily give in to their needs.
    
    I haven't tried time outs yet.  I am not sure my daughter would really
    understand them.  I do force eye contact and ask her what is upsetting
    her, or ignore her at times until she calms down, but that's about it. 
    If I wait a few minutes it will resolve itself and then we can talk
    about it.
    
    A different approach may be needed for each child, but the "terrible
    twos" seem to require a little understanding on both sides.  After all,
    they are still little kids.
    
    Just my thoughts.
    
    Mary
    

    I am going to tell you the problem I am having, and I can take any
    feedback that anyone wants to throw my way and will welcome it. I 
    am just at my wits end about now and need some pointers.
    
     My daughter will be 3 in a few months and just to start this out
    I need to express that a lot of what I am feeling may be due to 
    being pregnant. I am expecting # 2 a day before my daughters 3rd
    Bday in July.  Plus I also realize she is just a kid and is going
    to try out her new-found independance as much as possible. She has
    a very strong personality and I know she is trying to be her own 
    person. I try and think of all that before I speak. I count to 10
    and then try to calmly reason with her. 
    
    What she does is constantly argues with everything I ask her to do.
    And I always ask, I hardly ever TELL her to just do something. Her
    father watches her all day and I watch her all night, we work seperate
    shifts to avoid daycare costs. And he never has the problem of even 
    coming close to spanking her, because she listens to his voice. Being
    a deep voice, it is scary enough. We don't believe in hitting anyways.
    
    My voice can go up 5 octaves and she still runs the other way when I
    ask her to come here or sometimes even laughs when I am yelling at her.
    It is usually some scenario like I will be on the phone and I always
    tell her if she needs me to say excuse me, well she will sit in the 
    recliner with me and while I am on the phone, she will gather a bunch
    of spit bubbles up at the end of her mouth and try to kiss my arm with
    them to get it all wet or even if she always uses a tissue for her nose
    she will pick it and try and wipe it on me (don't laugh) or try to bite
    me. Never does any of this and I will keep asking caller to hang on and
    will yell at her and tell her if she does not stop this, she will go in
    her bedroom by herself and she will keep it up, finally I will warn her 
    that she is about to get spanked and finally end up having her wrist 
    slapped.  by then she is acting like hysterical and I feel like the 
    worst Mother. I realize that may be all for attention. But it is every
    single thing I say to her, she even yells no right back at me. Or lets
    out a blood curdling scream before starting to cry, she does this often
    in department stores when you ask her to hurry up and walk to keep up
    with you. 
    
    If she only listened to me 10% of the time, I would be relieved. But
    this is like no respect whatsoever! And when Daddy is home and hears
    her talking back, he yells and she straightens right out. When I put
    her on the couch 5 times nightly, she even says I am sorry Mumma, but
    then 1 second later will not listen to me. I always tell her I love 
    her after and hug her, and tell her that if she is a big girl and 
    listens to what Mommy says that I will stop yelling at her. But it
    does not seem to work. I feel like every minute I am home I am 
    yelling at my little girl and I want to enjoy her, but ever since 
    she turned 2 I have been real bothered by her actions. And all this
    yelling/crying etc...on my end cannot be very healthy for this baby 
    inside me. 
    
    Any suggestions? Anyone out there that has a child that has gone
    through a period where their child does not listen at all to them?
    
    When we are at someone's house or someone else is at our house, she
    is an angel! But when it is just her and I, it is a nightmare. People
    tell me their kids went through the same stuff, and that they think I 
    am a great Mom, but I cannot help but feel I am doing something wrong.
    I even feel like I am not looking forward to this baby as much as I
    could because of this stressful child period I am going through. 
    
    Help!
    
    Charlene 

                  <<< Note 60.7 by ICS::CWILSON "Charlene" >>>
<    What she does is constantly argues with everything I ask her to do.
<    And I always ask, I hardly ever TELL her to just do something. Her
<    father watches her all day and I watch her all night, we work seperate
<    shifts to avoid daycare costs. And he never has the problem of even 
<    coming close to spanking her, because she listens to his voice. Being
<    a deep voice, it is scary enough. We don't believe in hitting anyways.
    
     Charlene,

It sounds like the old "she trusts you the most - so she tests all the limits
with you" story.  I'm now pregnant with #3 - due in August and my 7 year old
is constantly testing me.  Arggggghh!  He's gone through phases like this 
before and it drives me crazy. Luckily it doesn't last more than a month or
two.  

I don't have any advice other than - don't give in on the big stuff and don't
sweat the small stuff.  {He's wearing his faded_beyond_recognizable_color_
_size_4T shorts to daycare today}

Rochelle

    My son will be 20 months next week and has started in with the temper
    tantrums.  He has them when he is outside playing and I ask him to come 
    inside. Also when he is hungry and doesn't get his dinner fast enough.  
    He starts screaming and crying and when I go to pick him up to
    bring him inside, he goes limp on me.   I will bring him inside and lay
    him on the couch, sit down next to him and tell him I know he wanted to
    stay outside, but he needs to come in because....  Then I ask him if he
    wants to help me with whatever I am doing and go off to do it.  Within
    a minute or two he is in there with me as happy as can be helping me.
    
    The thing I can't figure out is that on the days he goes to daycare,
    (3 days a week) when we get home he throws a fit of screaming. 
    I can't figure out what is going on here.  I have thought maybe it 
    was his way of releasing his frustration and stress from whatever he 
    experienced during the day.  
    
    Sometimes he will stand in the middle of the livingroom, dig his feet 
    into the carpet and scream.  His little body shakes he yells so loud, 
    then he takes a deep breath, puts his pacifier back in his mouth and 
    starts playing with his toys.
    
    In general, I find that if I give him choices on things he will make
    them.  When he helps me with chores I thank him and praise him on how
    well he did.  I have even let him do his own laundry.  He helps me
    gather it all up and then I start the machine and put in the soap.  I
    pick him up and he puts his clothes in the washer and closes the lid. 
    Afterwards I put the wet clothes on the dryer door and he pushes them
    into the dryer and then he pushes the button and turns it on.  He even
    helps put the clothes away.  I know he enjoys this because he tells me 
    "mamma I help" and seems very proud of himself. 
    
    Kathy
    I am getting close to starting potty training.  After he potty's in his
    diaper, he goes and gets a clean one and brings it to me.  He tells me
    he "pop popped" and trys to take his pants off.  I think he may be
    ready for us to try it.
    
    I get him to do things he doesn't want to do, by making a game out if
    it.  "Wouldn't it be fun if you helped mommy pick up your toys?"  If I
    act like it is fun, he joins in with me.  I also always touch his
    shoulder and have direct eye contact with him when I ask him to do
    something.  It works.
    
    Kathy    
    

    Boy, does .7 bring back memories!
    
      > What she does is constantly argues with everything I ask her to do.
      > And I always ask, I hardly ever TELL her to just do something.
    
    My own mother would jump on this "like a duck on a June bug" (I always
    thought that was an odd image), and what she would say is, "You're
    ASKING her?  Who is the mother here?!"  Now, that's pretty
    inflammatory, and I didn't like it one bit when she said it to me.  But
    there's a grain of truth in it, I think.  I know that when you're
    asking (to be polite, vs. throwing your OWN tantrum!), it feels like
    what you're doing is respecting the child's dignity, etc.  But if you
    make it an open-ended question ("Would you put on your jacket now
    please?"), you're really just begging for a "NO!"  Assuming that this
    happens to be a big issue and not one you can let slide, it might be
    better to state what has to happen, PERIOD.  "It's time to go; please
    put on your coat."  When you get resistance, say "Either you put on the
    coat yourself, right now, or I will do it FOR you when I get mine on." 
    Now they have a choice (of who controls the coat installation).
    
    Nothing works all the time, (or, "all the time--NOTHING WORKS!"  :-)
    Leslie
     

    This is _really_ just standard 2-year-old stuff.  I try the following
    things:  1. distraction, changing the subject, etc.  (this is getting
    harder and harder to do as my son's memory and attention span
    increase!).  2. addressing the independence issue (Ok, who's going to
    put your jacket on, me or you?  He almost always says "me").  3.  Brute
    force (I just hold him and do it.  Not too effective).  
    
    Re: the telephone thing.  Maybe better to not try to talk on the phone
    when your daughter is in the room.  I usually wait until after he's in
    bed before calling anyone to whom I anticipate talking a long time.
    
    I really HATE being laughed at when I'm trying to discipline my son
    also.  Somehow they must sense that you're not _really_ serious,
    because when I yell at him for something very important, like not
    touching the stove, he doesn't laugh.  

Charlene:

A couple of things came to mind when I read your note.

1)  Kids (particularly toddlers!) HATE to have a parent on the phone.  I don't
    know why, but they detest you talking on the phone.  They will do everything
    in their power to force an early termination of your call.  First
    solution .. get a portable phone so you CAN escape ANYWHERE  (sometimes I
    look myself in the bathroom!)  Second solution .. get the kid involved in
    something (toys, Daddy!, a snack ... anything to try and divert their desire
    to interfere ... and if you can walk away (with the portable phone) - into
    another room (letting them do their thing and you do your thing), it usually
    allows you a little more time to chat.

2)  Some tell me that terrible 3's are worse than terrible 2's ... I hope not!
    I enjoy, well most of the time!, the 2's.  I want it to stay this way!
    But several of my friends just DETEST the 3's  (perhaps they are more
    aggressive and determined to "win" the war of control, than a 2-year-old
    who's more easily distracted?).  I won't know for another 6 months, when
    Juli hits "3".

3)  Flex-houring is tough.  Jim/I did it the first year and I am so happy we
    did, however, looking back on it I know see how much we sacrificed "not
    being together more" which had two consequences:  OUR private time together
    and the ability to "escape"  (hand the child off to your husband so you
    can get some chores/tasks done).  Also, this gives you a break to regain
    you composure and patience!  Flex-houring can be very similar to single-
    parenting ... although rewarding in that YOU are caring for your child,
    it does come with a price, though.

4)  Be consistent with the behavior consequences.  Biting/spitting/nose wiping
    is not allowed on or off the phone.  Often, I have to terminate the call,
    correct/discipline Juli and THEN CALL BACK when things have settled down
    (and that may not be for a while).  It's annoying, but the behavior should
    probably be dealt with ASAP  (not 1/2 hour later when you finally hang up
    the phone and now want to KILL the kid).  Calling the kid's bluff is often
    effective (e.g. hanging up the phone, leaving the grocery store, leaving
    church during the sermon) and making the kid accountable for his/her
    behavior "here and now"!

My kid is FAR FROM AN ANGEL!, but she, too, tried many of these things ... and
occasionally tries them again.  Being consistent, firm, responsive and dealing
out consequences usually gets a handle on the situation for the next few times
(and sometimes we get lucky and it licks the problem forever).

Every kid has done what your kid is doing.  Maybe some other Mom/Dad's can give
some more feedback on how they handled/managed it.

Good luck ... God Bless.

Dottie

    Well, she goes to bed at 9:00, and I really don't like to call people
    that late. So...I will just have to work on that one.
    
    But, I think a lot of it may have to do with the fact that I am going
    to have another baby in 3 months, and just always have things on my
    mind about that too, 3 days non-activity, 3 days on has been this one's
    practice. But I am 28 weeks along, so that should be stopping soon, and
    becoming more active. So, when I already have these things brewing in 
    my mind and she is having a terrible day, then it's bad. 
    
    She is a good kid, but she does come to me for more things, and maybe
    that is what it is, maybe she trusts me so much that she feels that 
    she can treat me like that. One morning I sat and cried at the
    breakfast table and she asked me why and when I told her it was 
    because she never listens to me, she just shrugged and still continued
    to not eat her breakfast, which is why I was yelling at her. We had
    already been at the table for 1/2 hr. without her taking 1 bite. I
    think I ended up throwing her food out that morning.
    
    It kills me because I am usually so patient. And I know I will be going
    through this at least 2 more times with babies again. I always make
    sure I praise her tho when she does listen. 
    
    Kathy Dickey - Sorry but I had to laugh at your note when you said your
    son shakes and everything and then is fine. My daughter does this some
    nights and her face gets red and she screams and shakes and then is ok,
    but I have to turn my head and laugh because she is being sooo dramatic
    that is is funny. 
    
    Charlene 

>    One morning I sat and cried at the
>    breakfast table and she asked me why and when I told her it was 
>    because she never listens to me, she just shrugged and still continued
>    to not eat her breakfast, which is why I was yelling at her. We had
>    already been at the table for 1/2 hr. without her taking 1 bite. I
>    think I ended up throwing her food out that morning.
    
    I can understand how frustrating not eating is (and I'm sure there are
    tons of notes on this topic in previous volumes), but IMHO you've
    GOTTA stop making a huge issue of eating/not eating.  Our rule is "you
    have to come to the table when it's time for dinner, but you don't have
    to eat".  We really try hard not to care if he eats one bite, or even,
    nothing.  They're NOT going to starve.  Fighting over food is a total
    no-win situation.  Give her a little bit, and don't spend hours
    preparing her meals so you won't resent having to throw the whole thing
    away.  
    
    Also telling her that you're crying because she never listens (or anything
    else she does) just gives her an inappropriate amount of power over
    you.  Do you expect her to listen to you because she feels sorry for
    you?  I don't think it will happen.  If you're frustrated to tears and
    she asks you why you're crying, I would probably just say that I was
    feeling sad right now.
    
    Also, as someone else said, don't ask her if she wants to do something
    unless it's really OK if she says NO.  Practice saying "You need
    to...", or "Now it's time to...".  
    
    Good luck.
    

   My daughter is generally a very good eater, but there are always those
 occasions when she likes to test me by refusing to eat.  I just don't let
 it bother me.  Several mornings each week I'll ask my daughter what she
 wants for breakfast and she'll tell me.  Then when I serve it to her she
 doesn't want it anymore.  I usually say fine and take it away and sit down
 to eat my own breakfast leaving her in her chair.  It doesn't take long for
 her to want her breakfast again.  She's also real good at changing her mind
 on what she wants.  I'll ask her "do you want milk or apple juice", she'll
 say "milk", then when I go to pour the milk she'll say "no!!! I want apple
 juice", so I usually say okay and put the milk back and get the apple juice.
 Then when she tries to switch back to the milk I'll pour the apple juice
 anyway.  This results in a temper tantrum that I usually ignore.  I'll say
 "fine, you don't want the juice you don't have to drink it... I'll drink it",
  and of course she then says "MY JUICE!" and accepts the glass.  Basically
  what happended is I distracted her from the milk by focusing instead on
  whose juice it was hers or mine.  I'll sometimes do the same thing with
 her food.  If she doesn't want it then I'll tell her daddy or I will eat
 it.  This usually works; however, there have been times when she gladly 
 handed over her plate and its often hard to keep a straight face and take
 it.

  I think the importent thing is to not give in to there tantrums.  If they
 are in a store, take them outside and set them straight right then and there.
 The same thing goes at home.  You can chose to ignore the tantrum like you
 didn't even notice they were screaming or you can handle it some other way.
 The important thing is that if the tantrum provides results for them then 
 they will continue to use them.  Sometimes you can offset there tantrum 
 by offering them a compromise.  An example of this would be say the kid
 wants a piece of candy but it's almost dinner time so you say no you can't
 have the candy, but you can have a piece of banana or something.  Or tell
 them they can have the candy after they eat dinner.  My daughter is usually
 more pacified with the word "later" than with the word "No!"
 
   Then lastly and most importantly work on being patient.  Children require
 subhuman patience at times, but try not to battle with them over trivial 
 things.  I read in PARENTING magazine a while back that you should ask yourself
 the question "Can I live with this", before making an issue out of 
 something.  The example they gave was you child insists on wearing one blue
 sock and one red sock to daycare.  Of course you don't agree with this, but
 it's a trivial matter.  Of course if its 20 degrees outside and your child
 refuses to put his coat on this is a totally different matter.  Try to think
 up ways to make your child think he or she is doing something because it
 was their idea and not yours.  Another way to get phone time would be to
 let them pick out one of their favorite video tapes like "winnie the pooh"
 to watch for 30 minutes while you go talk on the phone.

  Lisa

    Ugh, the tactic of you can do whatever AFTER dinner is an instant loser
    in our house.  Marc immediately says "I'm all done", and wants to get
    down, even if he would otherwise keep eating.  I've found a better one
    is "you can have that cookie before you go to sleep".  He's never once
    responded "I'm ready to go to sleep, Mom"!  
    

    Charlene, 
    
    My daughter is younger than yours, so I can't offer any real help. 
    However, I've read some books by Adele Faber and Elaine Mazlish that I
    really like.  If you have the energy, you might try them out.  Their
    recommendations focus on communicating in a way validates the child's
    feelings, not putting her down, and also on validating your own
    feelings about what is acceptable behaviour.  Books I have are:
    
    Liberated Parents, Liberated Children: Your guide to a happier family
    How to Talk so Kids will Listen and Listen so Kids will Talk
    Siblings without Rivalry
    
    The first book has more anecdotes (i.e. like "Suzy did this, and I did
    that, but then when I did the other..."); the others are more how-to
    books.  All are pretty readable.  
    
    We re-read these books when our daughter started having tantrums, and
    made some small changes in the way we would talk with her, which had
    some effect on her also.  We think it is partly the novelty of a change
    (i.e. "I can't predict Mom and Dad's behaviour, so I can't cause them
    to do xxx!"), but I also like the model they present.
    
    Whether or not you get the time to read, maybe you can think about
    non-confrontational ways of dealing with the challenges she presents to
    your authority.  For example, instead of getting "backed into" saying
    "no"  or getting a "no" from her a lot, give her some choices that you
    can live with.  One that has worked for me is with a real bone of
    contention for us, changing diapers.  She hates lying on her back to
    get a new diaper.  Now I ask if she wants to climb up to the changing
    table or wants me to lift her up.  She usually zooms over to the
    changing table then so she can climb up on her own.
    
    On the other hand, she also still has tantrums that I can't understand
    or figure out how to deal with.
    
    Good luck!
    
    Beryl

    Well, I tried a different tactic after that day I kinda broke down, it
    was at that point that I knew all this yelling for one was getting me
    nowhere and for two, was probably not doing this baby inside me any 
    good. So, this past week I have told her things very calmly instead of
    yelling, like you are being very naughty and if you don't stop then 
    Mommy is going to pull your hair right back, you would not like it if
    Mommy pulled your hair would it? It would hurt wouldn't it? And these
    things have resulted a lot more than yelling. She has been super all
    week. I just has to finally admit to myself that with me being in my
    last few months of pregnancy, my fuse is a lot shorter than it ever 
    was. And it is like after yelling at her for a while, all my energy
    was gone and now I just calmly tell her things and then that way when
    I blow, she knows I have had enough. She has been coming up and 
    hugging me a lot more and telling me I love you Mom on her own and
    more this past week. So I think it was a good break for both of us. 
    
    Although setting her up in front of the TV with her favorite movie 
    before making a phone call and set her up with coloring books, etc...
    She basically just wants to be with me, because she misses me all day.
    And at meal times her food usually just got thrown out no problem, 
    our Pedi always said if they are not hungry don't push it, so that 
    is fine, some of us are not Always hungry, but when I saw her sitting
    there doing nothing but drinking and smerking at me when I told her it
    was time to eat, than yes, that did tick me off. But, I am not going
    to get myself all stressed anymore, I cannot hack it at this time.
    
    thanks for all the comments. 
    
    Charlene
                              

    We find that the best 'punishment' is 'time out'.  It can be
    done very 'non-emotionally'.....rather than getting mad, just
    make sure that your child knows that you and she both know that
    what she did was inappropriate and put her in time out.

    I've heard the rule '1 minute of time out per year of age'...but
    I think more importantly, put your child in time out as long as
    you need.

    Dont get mad.....get even.
    bob

    My experience has been that kids always find a way to make a fuss
    about *something*.  Usually it's when you and/or they are tired,
    hungry, generally out-of-sorts, etc.  
    
    I admire all the Noters who patiently explain things to their kids.
    On the other hand, sometime the explanation business can get out
    of hand.  Sometimes it's almost as if you're playing into their
    game.  So do explain, but remember that you are the parent, too.
    One of our chores as parents is to help our kids understand that
    there are unpleasant things out there -- getting dressed and ready
    for daycare, picking up toys, doing homework -- that have to be
    faced. We acknowlwedge that it's unpleasant and we sympathize when
    we can, but some things have got to be done.  
    
    For .9:  My son went through a stage of tantrums when leaving daycare
    too.  We figured, as you did, that he is blowing off steam and he
    trusts us enough that he knows he can act like this and we'll still
    love him.  Nothing you can really do about it, I don't think.

When Juli was driving me totally nuts (pre-two's), I bought a book titled
"Who's In Control?".  First off, it says "if you bought this book, we all
know who IS in control ... now, let's try and regain the control back again ...".

It talked about a lot of the mind-games and challenges the two-year-olds in
this NOTE presented and suggestions on how to deal with them.  One in
particular was bringing down Mommy "to tears".  The book went on to say
"a child doesn't care that you're crying ... a child doesn't care that s/he
is driving you nuts ... all a child cares about is getting you back into
shape (through hugs, sorries, promises, whatever is necessary), so you're
in condition to be CONTROLLED BY THEM AGAIN.  A child has difficult controlling
a parent when that parent is CRYING ...".  I chuckled.  How true.

Got to run.

Dottie

There is a course being offered at Emerson Hospital in Concord this weekend
entitled "Understanding your Toddler".  It is on Saturday, May 2, from 9:30
thru 12:00 and costs $20/person ($35 for two people if you bring a friend).
Child care is not provided (to bad - I would have liked to volunteer my 
2-yr-old as a demo toddler ;-).  It just so happens that my peditrician,
Dr Schneebaum, is the speaker.

The hospital asks that you pre-register.  You can do so over the phone using a 
credit-card.  The number is 369-1400.  Ask for the Community Service department.

    Hi,
    
    Like Charlene, I have a child (daughter) who will be three in
    July, and we are expecting our second baby in July also. So I
    can relate to Charlene's "short fuse" and general worried feeling,
    as well as to the other parents' trials with the two-year old
    stage. Charlene, if you are like me, you are probably feeling
    a loss of control over your life, to some extent anyhow, as you
    get bigger and more tired and more unable to get around. Your
    body is taken over, which means your life is! Add a controlling
    almost-three-year old throwing tantrums because her cartoon
    isn't on RIGHT NOW or she doesn't want to get dressed or she
    WANTS to throw her Cream-of-Wheat on the floor, and you're in
    for a good time.
    
    I am lucky; in our house, it hasn't come down to the heavy duty battle 
    of wills which Charlene described. I think that there are a few
    reasons for this: our little Sarah is good natured and the
    urge to throw Cream-of-Wheat is not an every day event. At the
    same time, both her father and I are fairly laid back also.
    I can pretty easily swallow a two-year old's need to try out
    independence; if she doesn't want to eat, oh well, guess it's
    OK with me; if she doesn't want her hair combed, I'll get in a
    few quick swipes with the comb and then put it away. Of course
    she doesn't want me talking on the phone; she can't be the center
    of that conversation, can't hear or see what I'm putting my
    attention on (the other person), she feels she's being left out 
    of something interesting by one of the most important people in 
    the world (me.) So, I get in what conversation I can (sometimes
    a good amount, sometimes none at all) and then enjoy being the most
    important person around.
    
    At the same time, I am very firm, perhaps a little too firm, about
    my own rights. Sarah is an independent person, and so am I, 
    and we both have to learn how to allow the other person her rights. 
    Some things I can give up, like cutting a phone conversation short
    or serving juice...NO, milk...NO, juice...
    but no way am I going to spend 45 minutes every morning battling
    to get her dressed. She needs to get dressed, I need to... drink
    my cup of coffee or whatever. If she wants to get dressed herself,
    fine. If not, she gets some unwanted help. She might have a fit
    of tears -- that's OK, tears are fine -- then she cheers right
    up again and is seeing how many stuffed animals she can line up
    around her room. And I'm drinking my coffee.
    
    Don't know if I'm being clear here. I guess I'm just saying that
    I try to build in some flexibility, depending on the situation,
    and if the issue isn't something that costs me MY rights, I give
    right in. If I can't handle the situation, it's almost always
    because *I* got up on the wrong side of the bed; certainly it's
    not because Sarah is suddenly a different child. When this happens,
    I hand the situation over to lucky old Daddy and I escape.
    Then Daddy gets to clean up the Cream-of-Wheat (thank goodness
    for sweet natured spouses!) 
    
    By the way, I think that that "blowing off steam" upon getting home
    from daycare is very common. To me, it's less blowing off steam
    and more just another example of toddlers' difficulty with 
    transitions. 
    
    I know I've said this in one or more other notes in PARENTING,
    but I believe fully that how a parent deals with control comes
    down to how control was dealt with when the parent was young. We mimic
    our own childhoods, I'm sure. Every child has his or her own
    personality which feeds in to the equation, of course. Yet every
    child is looking for pleasant firmness (that's the same thing as safety,
    because it shows that the parent has power in the world and so can
    protect the child with it,) clarity of boundaries, and all the loving
    attention that can be grabbed.
    
    My four cents.
    Barbara

    Regarding using the phone:
    
    My son (20 mos)does the very same thing when I am on the phone.  He will 
    climb on me and try to get the phone out of my hand or try to hang it up.
    If this doesn't work, he will get the noisest toy he has (a car that pops
    when you push it) and play with it right in front of me so I can't hear 
    anything.  As he is pushing the car he looks up at me waiting for a
    reaction from me.  If I don't give him one he will stop and go in his
    room to play.  
    
    I have noticed he bothers me more if I start to laugh or sound like I'm
    having a good time.  That really bugs him.
    
    When you really get down to it, they are really smart and very sharp to
    know how to "push your buttons".
    
    Kathy

    I am also having problems with the terrible twos...but they are
    starting too early!!  Kelsey is 15 mos. old and has been throwing
    "heavy duty" tantrums since she turned a year.  She has been a very
    advanced child since birth (rolling, crawling, walking and talking
    early), so I am hoping this will end soon instead of going on until she
    is two.
    
    Her temper tantrums are very physical, and she usually ends up hitting
    her head against a wall or floor.  She usually throws "fits" for
    anything from not being able to have a toy to having to come into the
    house (she loves to play outside).  She is already talking alot and can
    say two or three word sentences, which is the same point my older
    daughter was at 18-20 months.  I believe a lot of temper tantrums occur
    from the frustration of not being able to communicate their desires, so
    maybe she is entering the terrible twos earlier than most children for
    this reason.
    
    She has always hated having her diaper changed, but really started
    fighting us at 1 year.  My husband any I often act as a tag team in
    order to get her changed (and dressed).  We try to distract her with
    juice or toys, but this doesn't work very often.  Just last month she
    started hitting me a lot.  She will come up to me (or my older
    daughter) and hit me, and when I tell her "NO" or "BAD", she laughs and
    hits me again.  I usually have to remove her from the situation, since
    nothing will stop her...then she throws a fit!  
    
    My older daughter is 2 1/2, so I really have my hands full!  Shannon
    has always been a very independent strong-willed child, but does not
    come close to the fury of my 15 mos. child, Kelsey.  My babysitter has
    a 2 1/2 year old son who has a real problem with hitting (hit Kelsey a
    lot over the last 6 mos. when his Mom started caring for a new baby),
    so she has had some good teachers and she learns REAL fast.
    
    Before Kelsey came along, I had always believed that the "terrible
    twos" didn't start until about 18 mos., but Kelsey's behavior changed
    this.  What I want to know is have other people had children who started 
    going through the "terrible twos" at 12-15 mos. of age and does it subside 
    at 18 mos or get worse?  If Kelsey's behavior multiplies at 18 mos. like
    my older daughter's behavior did at that time...I might as well have
    myself committed right now!
    
    Carol

.25

     Like all developmental phases, some stages happen in different ways, at
different times, or not at all.  The period of 18 months to 24 months
remains, to this day, my favorite period for both of my children.  Every day,
they would do something new, witty, charming, innocent, and touching, or some
subset thereof.
     Two wasn't quite so pleasant, but by no means were they "terrible."  
Then THREE hit, and there was enough defiance and unpleasantness for BOTH two
and four, which are supposed to be the ages of instability. 
     So yeah, it might get worse.  Or she might have the "terrific twos." 
Who knows?  Nobody ever promised us it would be predictable.

Clay

Just a couple of cents worth on eating (or not), and on tantrums/testing.

On eating, I can heartily second all of the comments on not making a big deal 
about food.  Not eating is a *great* attention getter; a child can do this 
three times a day! Remember, children like attention, lots of it, and they 
don't often differentiate between what we call "good" attention and "bad"
(misbehavior) attention.

If your child is healthy and growing, don't worry about it.  After all, are 
you hungry at the stroke of noon every day?  I know we can't drop everything to 
feed a toddler when he/she decides its time, but we can start teaching them that
there are specific meal and snack times.  If they want to skip one, fine, but
then they have to wait until the next one.  Just remember they probably can't 
wait hours between meals like we do.  Try to keep the snacks healthy

Some friends of mine have the same problem with their daughter, who is now four.
She wouldn't eat at home.  She would eat at the sitter's, but not at home or 
on the weekends (she would, however, drink gallons of juice).  This drove her
parents CRAZY!  They would hover around her saying "here, take one bite for
daddy", "doesn't this look good!", etc. etc., while she sat there smiling
smugly, (yes, smiling!) shaking her head.  Then she would get up and run away. 
After she got down, they would stick food in her mouth whenever she ran by. 

She's grown out of some of this behavior (I don't think she can get by on just
juice anymore), but the "eating on the run" continues.  Her parents apparently
feel it's worth putting up with to get food in her (funny, she seems to enjoy 
it too!).  8-}


On tantrums, I have always tried to ignore tantrums, meaning that I try to 
never give my daughters whatever it is they want while throwing a tantrum.  Now
there have been times when I've wished I had given them that "whatever"
(because it really wasn't a big deal), but once a tantrum started there was no
way I was going to reinforce that behavior.  This has been really hard at 
times; I've been one of *those* mothers with the red faced, screaming, kicking
child in the supermarket.  For that I've gotten looks that ranged from 
"I've been there" to "Can't you control your children" (gee maybe I should
have taught them to heel...:-) ).

After the tantrum ended, I would act as if nothing happened.  I wouldn't 
punish them; they lost control and they *were* just toddlers.  IMHO, punishing
them would not have prevented future tantrums anyway.  

I do allow myself to be "talked into" a yes; I think it's a really good
learning experience for them to learn simple negotiating.  This skill is very
handy when they go to preschool and start playing with lots of different kids. 

FWIW
BArbara

    Rebecca is 13 months old and is starting to throw tantrums.  She will
    get so mad at me she will hit me.  I say "NO" and she comes right up to
    my face and says "HI!".  She gets very frustrated at anything.
    This morning, I was putting her sweater on her, an noticed that it
    had juice stains on it so I proceeded to take it off and she go so mad
    she started screaming!  I didn't know what was wrong.  Oh, she woke up
    at 4:45 this morning and didn't want to go back to sleep. She usually
    sleeps till 6:00 or so.  Sometimes she gets so mad that she grunts!
    
    I am not looking forward to this, I have a feeling it is just her 
    personality.
    
    What do you think?
    
    Thanks
    KIm
    
    

    Hi Kim,
    
    What you are going through with Rebecca is normal.  Try to remember
    that she is asserting her independence, and that is a normal stage for
    kids starting at 12 or 13 months.
    
    Try not to turn it into a battle of the wills.  You will only make
    yourself miserable.  She needs to know that you are calm and in control
    of yourself.  YOU need your sanity.
    
    At this age, distraction works well.  For instance, for putting on a
    diaper, give the child a book, a toy, or the tube of Desitin, even
    another clean diaper to hold.  If she clings to a sharp knife, remove
    it and quickly give her something else to play with.  Take her into
    another room if necessary, for a change of scenery.  She will quickly
    forget.
    
    Think about what's really important.  If she has a fit about removing a
    dirty sweater when she just got dressed, so let her wear it.  In a few
    minutes you may be able to remove it without any problem.  If she
    really wants to wear this sweater, is it really such a problem?
    
    Begin to clearly communicate your expectations.  It will take a few
    more months until she really understands.  But it is a good practice to
    calmly, clearly, and firmly tell her what you want her to do, such as
    "When we are at the table, you must sit in your highchair."  
    
    Develop routines and stick to them.  Routines for mealtimes, for
    bedtime,  and so forth.  Children love routines and they quickly learn
    and repeat them.  If YOU set the routine, you can prevent undesireable
    behavior.  Even little things become part of the ritual.

another couple things that help a lot:

try to let them know what's going to happen, like "Mommy's going to get your
sweater and then we'll put it on", or "Drink your milk and then we'll change
your diaper".

Give them as many choices as possible, even on ridiculous things.  Like, "Do
you want the blue sippy cup or the red sippy cup".

At 13 months they won't understand a lot of what you say, but with gestures
they can get the idea.  They understand more than they can let on at this age.
I know people recommend this for 2 year olds, but I had a lot of success talking
and explaining at a year too.

Ah, the irony.  I entered the last reply a month ago, when Elise was still
perfect and well-behaved.  Now she's driving me nuts.  (And so is my husband,
but I suspect I'm taking my frustration out on *him* instead of on an 18
month old.  Seems a "fairer" fight, but not fair, if you know what I mean.)

She seems so angry at us, particularly at her father.  Last week he had to leave
for work at about 7:30PM every night, so she had less time than usual with him.
(He tends to do evening child chores, like baths, I do morning child chores.)
We rearranged so he picked her up from daycare, so they got a little more time
together.  But she refused to hug and kiss him, unlike a week earlier, and has
been more clingy with me.  She actually was upset when I dropped her off at
daycare one morning last week, for the first time in a year, maybe (a very long
time ago, anyway).

I realize that at 18 months, she's becoming more of her own person and we try
to encourage her to take control of the things she's ready to control (like,
milk or juice, blue pants or red, bath or shower, etc). I'm also wondering if 
she's able to comprehend there's a new baby coming and is worried about that.

Two weekends ago, she spent most of the weekend telling me *she's* my baby.
(Pointing at herself, saying, Mommy Baby).  I kept agreeing with her and gave
her more attention than usual, since I suspected she was feeling somewhat
insecure.  If I told her she's a "big girl", she disagreed, pointed to herself,
saying "Baby".

She doesn't have temper tantrums; I almost wish she would, as that seems easier
to handle than this non-specific crying and frustration.

One example of what we're struggling with:  when dinner is ready, (and she's
had the 5 minute warning, the 2 minute warning, and the hand-washing warning),
she'll absolutely refuse to get into her high chair.  She screams, goes stiff,
yells, "NO! NO!", and starts crying like her heart is breaking.  Two weeks ago, 
she *loved* sitting down to dinner with us. I don't care if she eats, or even if 
she sits there the whole time we're eating, but I care that she joins us at the 
table for at least 5-10 minutes. One of us will hold her until she calms down, 
then she is willing to sit in her chair.

Does this sound like normal terrible twos starting?  Could the new baby be a part
of it?  Granted, I'm more distracted, tired and short-tempered than usual. Could
she be picking that up?

    
    Lately my daughter (21 months) has been throwing these screaming fits
    when she can't have her own way. I know the Terrible Two's are upon us
    but this is drving me crazy. The hard thing about it is that my husband 
    sleeps in the late afternoon to evening because he works 3rd shift. And
    I am limited to how high I can raise my voice to control her. Last
    night at about 7:00 she wanted juice and as a rule I don't give her
    anything to munch or drink within an hour of her bed time. Well, she
    screamed so loud because I said no, I'm surprised the neighbors didn't
    hear her. This will continue for at least 15 minuets untill I do
    everything I can to get her mind off of what she was screaming about.
    She only does this to me not her daddy, and not every night but maybe 
    3 times a week. Telling her that daddy is sleeping doesn't help.  
    
    Anyone have the similar situation, that can give me some hints on how
    to control her when she get's like this? I don't want to spank her
    bottom becuse that will lead to crying and screaming.
    
    Thanks in advance
    Sandy  

    Two suggestions.  One) Have daddy wear earplugs to bed for the
    immediate future so that the screaming won't bother him.  Good kind are
    called stopples, made of wax, gotten in drugstore.  Two) Find the place
    farthest from daddy and tell her she can go and cry and yell and scream
    there and to tell you when she's done.  No need for you to scream at
    her, merely to say no.  This has worked pretty well with Daniela.  The
    nice part is how charming she is when she comes and tell you she's all
    done crying.  

    Thanks for my laugh of the day!  Kaitlin is 16 months old now and
    has been having temper tantrums when she is told "no" for a couple
    of months...otherwise she is a little angel.  So far, we just try
    to change her attention to something else, or we give in as long as
    it isn't something that will physically hurt her (like climbing on
    a toy).
    
    Good luck--and let's hope the "terrible 2s" don't last too long!

    Kids seem to know what buttons to push.  She is probably testing you at
    this point - because you are trying to keep noise to a minimum.  When
    my husband worked the off-shift I would always run the fan in his room
    (even in winter) so the noise we make would be drowned out by the "hite
    noise".  As far as the baby goes, don't give her any special treatment
    when she does throw her tantrums.  She should receive the same type of
    handling as if daddy were awake.  Try to hold her to get her attention
    and wait out the sreaming - then lovingly work thru it with her. 
    There are a lot of notes in here about tantrums and dealing with them -
    mostly in public, but they work at home, too!
    
    

    How far is her room from dad's sleeping area?  The reason I ask is the
    method we used was to carry AJ to his bed, (similar to .1) and tell him
    he can come out when he's done having his tantrum.  Option to this is
    if you have an established "time out" place, or this may be an
    opportunity to establish one, and take her to the time out place and
    say the same thing to her.
    
    One thing we learned in the parenting classes for ADHD kids, is you
    don't have dialog while in time out, in fact you pick the child up with
    no words at all and carry them to wherever the time out will happen.  
    And if it's necessary to physically hold the child in time out chair
    then do so.  Stand behind the chair, (but keep your chin away from the
    child's head, they've been know to thrash and hurt the adult) and
    gently cross your arms over the child's chest, and gently hold the
    child's hands in his/her lap until they settle down.  Sort of like a
    big, comforting hug which is the object of this exercise.
    
    Another method, which may show kindness is to pick her up, wrap your
    arms around her, and tell her you're going to give her a real  
    big hug until she gets over her can settle down.
    
    I admit that in moment of frustration simply saying NO!, and letting
    him wail until he got it all out his system.  Somehow I think this may
    be the best approach, if hubby is understanding at all.  This way
    you're not "enforcing" the negative behavior, then give big praise when
    she calms down and starts acting human again.
    
    I picked up a real "nasty-nice" phrase from some unknown place lately,
    I too need to loose this one... after telling the kid NO for the
    umpteenth time..  "which part of NO didn't you understand?"
    
    Lyn

My daughter entered the terrible-two's early, too ... 'round about 18 months.
If ever I thought I would "go off the deep end", it was during her 18-26'ish
month stage.

Then, just after she turned "2", she started snapping out of it.  At 2-1/2,
she became a cute, likeable, loving "little person".  I actually could take
her "almost" anywhere and talk her into or out of almost anything.  We still
have an occasional "disagreement", but NOTHING LIKE the pre-two's!!!

What I "learned" from that stage was:

.  Juli is very much into "set patterns".  If Jim "typically" does bathtime
	and I "typically" do the dressing routine ... than that's the way
	it MUST BE (in Juli's mind!).  Juli did not adjust to routine and
	schedule changes very well.

.  It's better to give her a choice that really isn't a choice, than to make
	statements or demands ... and explain things  (e.g.  it's really
	cold outside today, so you need both a coat and a hat, or you'll get
	REAL COLD, your ears will hurt ... or ... please pick up your toys,
	Juli and I'll help you  vs. pick up the toys NOW).

.  Positive re-enforcement does have payoffs!  In the grocery store, I'll
	give her a hug and tell her how "good" she's being and how much I
	appreciate it.  I also thank her for cooperating and helping me
	(even when I question if I should be ... eg. helping JULI pick up
	HER toys!).  Now she's apt to say "am I still good, Mommie?"  and I'll
	says "yes, you're the best!" ... or "well, Juli, you could be a
	bit better"  vs. "you're being bad, Juli!"

.  Jim/I were adamantly AGAINST spanking or hitting, however, the pre-two's
	used to trigger my mouth on a regular basis.  I quickly learned
	that yelling is TOTALLY INEFFECTIVE ... it only increases YOUR
	high blood pressure and makes you MADDER than you were before!
	I gain more ground in warning Juli that "I'm getting upset, Juli
	... if those toys are not picked up soon, you're going to miss out
	on your bedtime snack (or whatever!)".  I'm thrilled that the prospect
	of "upsetting me" really concerns Juli!

.  Have a united front.  I really have to bite my tongue (and Jim does, too)
	when you want to stick up for the kid, but your spouse has already
	taken a stand.  And today's rules have to be tomorrow's rules.  It's
	so much easier to just plain "give in" because you're tired,
	overwhelmed, behind schedule, frustrated ... but don't!  Otherwise,
	if you think the pre-two's are tough, the two's will be even tougher,
	and the 3 & 4's will be deadly!

.  Lots of love, support and praise.  No matter what kind of a day or
	evening we've had ... Juli gets bedtime hugs and kisses and a
	backrub and storytime  (I don't use storytime as a means to
	reprimand).  End every day with love (and forgiveness).

Hang in there ... for us, I never believed it could get any better (or any
worse either!) ... but it did improve ... 'round about 26 months of age.
I can honestly say "I DO love the 2's"!!

Dottie

    
    Well, I will try turning on the airconditioner in our room so that will
    drown out the sound for my husband. I think she is a little young for
    "time outs". I have tried this by telling her to sit on the couch for 5
    minuets to cool down and she doesn't grasp it.  She was much better
    yestarday, because she played outside for a few hours and I think it
    tired her out. :)
    
    Thanks for the advice...
    
    Sandy

    Hi,
    
    .36 had a good idea with the white noise. You can buy little 
    "white noise" machines from Hammacher-Schlemmer. I have one and
    it drowns out everything outside the room.
    
    Also, maybe your child was actually thirsty that night? Sometimes I 
    think my daughter is wanting extra drinks but doesn't really need them, 
    then when I give her something, she just gulps it down because she
    was really thirsty. 
    
    Elizabeth

One trick the airline pilots use when trying to sleep in hotels during the
day (my husband is one) is to turn the television on to a non-broadcasting
station.

If you already have a TV in the bedroom, you can do that.  They also turn the
brightness control to the dimmest, so the picture isn't distracting.

(Just as an interesting tidbit on how these guys try to survive this lifestyle - 
one guy carries an industry strength stapler and staples the bedspread over 
the window.)


Pat

    When I have to tell Brad "NO" and he throws a fit he goes into time out
    for 2 1/2 minutes (one minute for each year of age) then we have hug
    time and discuss why he went into time out.  This really works well
    with Brad.
    
    Sasha

    We time Michael out for 2 minutes, but you don't just tell him to sit
    on the couch and then leave and expect him to do it.  Whichever one of
    us is disciplining him tells him he is being timed out and to sit down
    on the couch.  If he refuses, we pick him up and sit him there.  We
    then set a timer, and stand back, out of sight or at least on the other
    side of the room where we won't be a distraction.  The TV is turned
    off, and any reading material is removed from his reach.  If he
    attempts to get up, we tell him no, that his timeout is not up yet.  If
    he persists, then he gets another timeout and the timer is reset to 2
    minutes.  When it's over he gets a big hug and we talk about the reason
    for the discipline.
    
    Pat and I were both firm believers in spanking, and we have been
    absolutely amazed at the effectiveness of this seemingly mild
    punishment.  I believe Michael would rather have a spanking any day!
    
    Often the mere threat of a timeout will end bad behaviour.
    
    Steve

    My husband has a good technique for discipline with our toddler.
    
    For example, she refuses to put away her toys.  He says, "You can put
    away your toys now, or you can have a timeout and THEN put away your
    toys."
    
    She gets the message.  As the previous note says, she HATES timeouts. 
    This is excellent discipline.
    
    L

Like Steve/Pat, Jim/I are also against spanking -- and yelling only raised
my blood pressure, had no effect on Juli whatsoever!  We have found the "chair"
to be MOST effective.

We do try to reason with Juli first and we only use the chair for things that
truly deserve punishment (temper tantrums, defiance, physical stuff), not 
for carelessness or testy kinds of things -- those kinds of things we "talk
through".

So, at best, Juli sits on "the chair" (kitchen chair), dragged to the middle of
the kitchen floor, about 1-2 times weekly.  Rest of the time, we're able to
"communicate" with her.

Recently, Juli "pitched" her bear into the china hutch  (I was cleaning the
kitchen).  Sheer shock and terror came over Juli's face as some knick-knacks
hit the (carpeted) floor and glasses tingled.  When Juli's eyes met mine, she
said "I'm hurrying, Mom ... I'm hurrying ..." -- ran to the kitchen, dragged
HER chair to the center of the floor, climbed up in it and didn't say "boo"!
I picked up the couple of (cheap!) knick-knacks (relieved that's all the
damage there was!), never a word transpired between us!, finished cleaning
the kitchen and then asked Juli if she understood what happened, she said
"yes" (and vowed never to do it again) ... and even now I snicker when I 
recall her "punishing" herself!  She'll even now walk "the long way" to
avoid the hutch.

One thing I can't bring myself to do is to shut Juli out (move her to another
room, turn her back to us, etc.).  To me that is a bit harsh.  Juli doesn't
dare get off the chair (and never has!) and she knows she can't get down until
she CALMS down (stops crying).  So the "chair" not only punishes her, but
calms her down.  On average, I doubt she's on the chair more than ONE MINUTE!
So we don't really "time" her punishment, but rather let JULI control the
stay (e.g. when she calms down and understands what went wrong, she can get
down).

Many times, all I need do is to mention the chair ... "Juli, if that baseball
bat comes in contact with the dog's head, you're going to find yourself ON
THE CHAIR ... so you had best make sure you're in control of THAT BAT!"
Oh, she'll make eye contact (and flutter her lashes) and mini-swing the bat
... but 90% of the time, she'll only "test" ... because she knows she's been
warned of the consequences.

BTW ... Juli's 2-3/4rds now ... and I've seen a distinct marked improvement
in her attitude and behavior these past couple of months ...  for me, the
pre-two's were by far the worst!!!  Hope this isn't a short-lived "calm before 
the storm"!

Dottie

    
    When can you start using time-outs. Anna is not quite 14 months (will
    be on Friday) and every once in a while will throw a fit when I don't
    let her to continue to do something she shouldn't, like play with the
    water in the dogs bowl, or pull the fan plug out of the socket, etc.
    I figure, how much does she understand at this point. Sometimes I think
    she completely understands and is just being defiant. I'll tell her
    "NO!" and she'll look right at me, smile, and do it again. If I take
    her away from whatever is when she'll throw the fit, but as soon as I 
    distract her with something else, she calms down and the plug or the
    water or whatever is forgotten.....for now. Should I sit her on the
    couch and try and get her to sit there for even 15 seconds??? Or is she
    just too young?? I'm just afraid if I don't start something soon she 
    may get out of hand in a few months, or is this just typical of this
    age??
    
    Patty

    I'm sure lots of people will disagree with me, but we didn't start
    Michael on timeouts till he was around 20 months old.  And even then I
    don't really know how effective they were.  Distraction seemed to be
    the best route even at that age.  By the time he reached 2, however, he
    knew what they were, and what they were given for.  And that knowledge
    is what makes them effective.
    
    Steve

I agree with Steve ... we didn't do timeouts until Juli was coming up on her
2nd birthday (around 20-22 months).  We, too, did the "move it", reason,
explain, distract, reprimand (and ignore Juli's protests) ... lots and lots
of talking and explaining!

I remember Juli's 10-20 month stage to be one of total exploration ... 
she was overwhelmed (and tempted) by EVERYTHING that shared her environment.
'Round about 20-22 months of age, she pretty much KNEW right from wrong ...
and it was then that the time had come to re-enforce the limits and rules.

But timeouts were not the catch-all for all "upsets" ... mostly reserved for
deviant "crimes" and distinct "violations" or out-of-control tantrums
(which usually occurred when Juli was way-past the state of exhaustion --
and nothing was going to go her way!).  And we don't call them "time-outs"
because they are not time-outs in the sense that Juli is REMOVED from our
sight ... she's just placed on a chair in the kitchen, usually within sight
of us ... often still in the same room as us.  I still tend to "warn" and
"reprimand" most of Juli's negative behavior ... rarely do we need to actually
use the chair ... 80% of the time a warning suffices and curtails her
behavior.  I'm hopeful that Juli can control her behavior rather than me
BREAKING her behavior.  I want her to be able to control herself and "respond"
to warnings and commands (e.g. teachers, other adults, other kids) vs.
provoking Juli to plant her feet firm or retaliating or worse yet, fear
punishment will always result.

Every parent and every kid is different, but I believe actions (from parents)
set the stage for REactions (from kid(s)).  Remember, an out-of-control parent
often creates an out-of-control kid.  (It just stands up the hair on the back of
my neck when I hear a tired, fed-up mother yelling at her kid in the grocery
store -- "If you don't sit in THAT CARRIAGE and SHUT UP, I'm going to take you
out to the car and SPANK YOU ... and SPANK YOU GOOD!" ... Now think about this
folks?, what choice does the KID REALLY HAVE?  Even if he sits down, he's
as mad at you as you are at him AND you just made a spectacle out of him in
public -- and he's not going to forget that for some time!  ... and I love the
threat "Keep it up, just keep it up and you're going to be grounded until the
year 2000!" ... Come on, does the kid really believe you on this one?).
So if you do resort to threats, as Jim says, make darn sure you can live up to
them!  (you ... not the kid!)

I have always said "save your heavy artillary for the big wars" and they are
NOT at 14 months of age ... or even terrible two's ... folks, I hear it gets
much, much better "with time"!  Someone once told me  "Terrible Two's are
from 2 to 22 ...".

Dottie

    After three days of dinner-time tantrums by my almost-two daughter, I'm
    starting to dread going home. )-:
    
    The only big change recently is that we had family visiting as house
    guests for several days, and we kept Ilona home from daycare.  My 
    parents were the last to depart, on Monday morning.  The tantrums
    started Monday night.  Ilona had returned to daycare Monday.
    
    She seems to be unhappy with everything at dinner time, except playing
    outside.  I can't watch her play outside and prepare/serve dinner at
    the same time.  And we are all exhausted, cranky, and hungry.
    
    Last night I tried holding her when I got home and giving her two sippy
    cups of warm milk.  She liked that but had a tantrum afterward anyway.
    
    Her normal bedtime is 7:30 to 8:00 p.m.  I am very tempted to toss her
    into bed at the first signs of a tantrum tonight, even if it is 6 p.m.
    
    Can someone please offer me some advice or reassurance?
    
    Thanks,
    tired Mom

    I don't know if this will help or not, but I'd try and nip it in
    the bud even before it starts.  She's old enough to understand
    certain things and be expected to remember for at least a minor
    amount of time.
    
    What I'd try is, before dinner, before there's even a hint of
    conflict, put her in a chair, make her look at you, and tell her
    that she has two choices: (1) eat supper without complaint,
    in which case she gets to do something favorable afterward
    (but NOT a bribe), or (2) throw a tantrum, in which case she
    goes to bed without supper (or maybe all she gets is some cheerios).
    
    Make sure she hears you and cannot pretend she didn't.  If she refuses
    to listen, tell her she has a choice: (1) listen, or (2) go to
    bed.
    
    From time to time we've had problems with our son at supper time.
    This seems to work well, especially since he's over the tantrum stage
    and we can address the problem when it arises.  Basically, what we
    tell him is that if he eats enough of his supper he can eat anything
    he wants afterwards, but if he doesn't he gets nothing. Or we refuse
    to let him play until after supper.  I can't recall the number of
    times he's eaten a reasonable supper only because what he really
    wanted was something else to eat, and eating his supper was the
    only way of getting what he really wanted.
    
    I'd expect to be tested a couple of times, but then she'll eventually
    catch on real quick.

Laura:

I can sure empathize with you ... as I felt the pre-two's were just terrible
... the two's were much better (and lots of fun).

Last summer (pre-two's), Juli, too, wanted to be outdoors in the late-afternoon.

Somethings we found helped was:

	1.  Jim would watch her (and play with her) while I fixed dinner.
	2.  Neighborhood kids would come by and she would chase them in
		her walker ... or just watch them play.
	3.  We BBQ'd (from the backyard deck) OFTEN!  And ate on the
		deck.
	4.  My kitchen window overlooks the backyard, so I would let the
		neighborhood kids come into our yard (totally fenced in)
		and play ... and be big brothers/sisters to my 19-month-old
		and the neighbor's 2-year-old.  (I really didn't have any
		major problems, because they knew I'd send them home if
		there was any rough-housing and EVERYONE picked up the
		toys.)  There was a 12-year-old girl (and her 6-year-old
		sister) who used to WAIT for me and then WAIT for Juli to
		come home so they could play in our backyard (they didn't
		have a swingset or sandbox or tricycles!).  She was
		EXCELLENT with my daughter.  Ocassionally, Jim would give
		Sandy $5 for helping us ... but she just seemed happy for
		the opportunity to use our backyard -- and gladly watch Juli
		in return.  She even wagoned her about!

We found that being outdoors tends to "tire out" Juli ... she would push her
walker all over the place!  And the fresh air was great for her.

This year, at 2-1/2, Juli has more freedom and flexibility.  The neighborhood
kids come over often, but she plays in their yard (next door), too.  I can
see our yard and their yard from my kitchen.  I often sit on the deck, too.
We have a WONDERFUL neighborhood ... much like an extended family.  Kids are
constantly running between our house and the next door neighbor's house.  We
can hear voices betwen the two houses.  We watch each other's kids if one of
the mother's want to run a quick errand.  We take kids along with us and they
take my kid along with theirs.  Last Sunday morning Elizabeth came over, in her
nightie with bear in tow and said "can I have breakfast?" ... it was precious!
I just called her Mom and said "Elizabeth's over here ...".

It's a WONDERFUL arrangement ... gives all us mothers a much needed break ...
and while the kids are wearing each other out, they're leaving us alone.
I just love the summer months ... Juli runs herself "ragged"!!!  We often
pair the kids up ... just last Saturday, I watched Elizabeth during the afternoon
hours and then her mother watched Juli during the evening hours.  If they go
out for dinner, they take Juli.  If we go out for dinner, we take Elizabeth.
Juli and Elizabeth are like sisters  (we buy for both kids, too ... Juli has
red sandals, Elizabeth has pink ones!).  Two nights ago, Elizabeth's Mom piled
the two kids into a wagon (and with her two older kids), they strolled down to
the Pet Store.

Often (2-3X/week), we'll toss together our leftovers or pull together our
BBQ meals ... put the kids on the deck and us on the porch and have a fun
dinner!  Sometimes we'll have 3 families pulling together.

Not sure if this could materialize in your neighborhood ... but it has truly
been a God Sent for me!!

Dottie

    Laura,
    
    When David, who's 2.5, starts wanting to play rather than eat, and
    throwing temper tantrums, the first thing I suspect is that he's
    coming down with a cold or ear infection.  
    
    Sometimes he gets so tired that he doesn't want to eat even though
    he's hungry, and that makes him very crabby.  Feeding him either
    before or after the rest of the family eats, so we can take the
    time to help him calm down and slow down, sometimes helps that. 
    
    Another thing that often helps is to give him a snack as soon as
    we get home.  If there's not much time between when you get home
    and when you sit down to eat, you might give your daughter part of
    her meal as soon as you get home, then let her play while you get
    the rest of dinner. 
    
    --bonnie

    Thanks for the advice, folks.
    
    re:  .49

    I like the idea of the serious talk before the tantrum.  You mentioned
    the choices of a. dinner or b. go to bed.  Can she handle a third
    choice:  c. play nicely while we eat?  Or would this be overwhelming?

    I feel uncomfortable saying she can eat anything she wants if she eats 
    dinner.  This is a kid who can skimp on dinner and eat a whole basket
    of strawberries.  Once she ate so many blueberries she threw up.  I
    always ration her fruit and cookies.  She is a bottomless pit.

    She doesn't want to play indoors, only outside.  She stands by the
    table, or clings to me, or gets in and out of her high chair, and 
    cries.  (For the record, on nice days she plays outside for hours at
    daycare.)

    re:  .50
    
    Maybe we should set up the screen tent and card table and try eating
    outside.  If she'll stay within eyeshot (no fencing) we'd be ok.
    
    We don't have your type of neighborhood relations.

    re:  .51

    Maybe I'll take her to the Dr. to check her ears.  She's never had an
    infection (knock on wood) but it could be. . . Or her 2-year molars. 
    The other night she was sticking her fingers in her mouth while she
    cried.  I could give her a dose of Tylenol and see if that helps.
    
    She snacks quite a bit when we get home.  I freely give her juice, milk,
    cheese, and crackers.  It doesn't make much difference in the tantrums.
    
    L
    

    Since my husband and I have both had weight problems all our lives, we
    are very careful not to _force_ Marc to eat anything, and especially,
    not to make desserts a reward for eating dinner.
    
    The rule in our house is that he doesn't have to eat anything, but he
    _does_ have to come to the table when the family is ready to have dinner. 
    He seems to understand and accept the rule.  Most of the time, he'll
    eat something, however little, we try not to care.  On rare occasions
    he'll eat nothing and just want to get down.  We usually let him go
    play on those days assuming he really isn't hungry.  
    
    Also, although I hate to use T.V. as a babysitter, he is usually very
    willing to sit quietly and watch a Kidsongs tape while I'm making
    dinner.  After a whole day at daycare, I think it helps him unwind.

    Two-year molars would do it too.  
    
    She might also just be having trouble adjusting to going back to
    the old routine.  All three of my kids at that age didn't take
    well to that kind of changes. 
    
    --bonnie

    Hi Laura,
    
    My three-year-old daughter seems to have tantrums at dinnertime
    almost every night. She refuses to eat what we eat most of the
    time. When she starts crying and screaming, we tell her to go to
    her room and rest until she feels better. She hates this idea as she
    equates it with "going to bed" for the night. Sometimes she goes
    by herself, but usually we take her there (to her room) telling
    her to not come back to the table until she is feeling better.
    
    Generally, about 5-10 minutes later she re-appears at the kitchen
    door saying, "I feel better now." 
    
    Elizabeth

Can you more experienced parents help make a list of tactics to use with
a budding two-year old?  Elise is changing on me again, and I haven't yet 
discovered enough strategies and tactics to manuever her into wanting her 
to do what I need to get done.  (Does this sound like war games?  Somedays I
feel like it is.)

I'm not talking about punishments (like time-outs), but techniques for getting
cooperation while still making her feel in control.   Dottie had some good
comments in .3 and .32, and Deb in .11

The list I've so far managed to accumulate.  I would greatly appreciate anymore
ideas people have used successfully.:

1) Give a limited choice whenever possible - like the red shirt, or the blue
shirt?

2) Give a warning of an upcoming event:  "A couple more minutes, then it's time
for bath."

3) Distraction - get her attention away from the forbidden by providing something
more enticing.

4) If I want her to do something, try to get her to show me she can or have her
do it herself.  ("Can you show me/Grammy/daycare provider how to climb into 
your carseat?" "Here, put your shoe on.")

Any others?

Pat

re: .53

>Since my husband and I have both had weight problems all our lives, we are
>very careful not to _force_ Marc to eat anything, and especially, not to
>make desserts a reward for eating dinner.

Deb,

Does this mean that you don't routinely have desserts, or that Marc gets to
eat dessert whether or not he eats his "regular" meal?

Clay    

    re: .56
    
    What I've noticed with my 25-month old who is very much into the
    terrible two's these days:
    
    1) Let him try to help me if that's what he wants. This takes a lot
    of creativity and patience. For instance, I now let him help me water
    the hanging pots of flowers we have on our screened porch. ( I take
    them down first!). Yes, he gets water on the floor. But it makes him
    very happy. He's also always been facinated by our water cooler. I now
    let him push the lever while I hold his cup. This was probably not such
    a wise move as he tries to do it by himself, but we'll see.
    
    2) I noticed that I was relying too heavily on speaking/yelling at him
    when he was doing something I didn't want him to to. I now seriously
    make a effort to *do* something after the first verbal warning. I've
    noticed that he tends to respond more willingly to the verbal warning
    now.
    
    3) I'm pretty sure that a lot of his antics lately are just meant to
    be attention-getters. I'm nearly 6 months pregnant with #2, and I'm
    sure that I'm not as active with him now as I was several months ago
    and I'm sure he notices the difference. So I try to find ways to be
    involved with him besides (and in addition to) just physical play.
    
    Sue

    We routinely don't have any desserts.  On the rare occasions when we
    do, though, (usually ice cream), we offer Marc some no matter what
    he's eaten.  Sometimes he'll have some, other times he'll just not be
    hungry and won't.

    This "dessert strategy" works with my nephews too.  They try not to
    have too much real desserty stuff around the house, but when it's
    there, eating dinner is not a prerequisite to having it.  Being hungry
    is the only prerequisite to eating.  So far this has worked well.  The
    kids are 5 and 2 and they seem to have a good attitude about food. 
    They are just as likely to ask for a carrot or a piece of cheese for a
    snack as they are to ask for cookies.
    
    The other thing that my sister and brother-in-law are being careful
    about is not using "going to bed early" as a threat or punishment. 
    That way bedtime is just another part of the day rather than something
    that happens to you if you misbehave.
    
                                                        Tracy

    I've had good luck with having desserts that make up part of the
    day's nutrition -- like fruit and cheese, puddings made with
    low-fat milk, that kind of thing.  Fruit over ice cream, or fruit
    with a dab of whipped cream on top (all right, sometimes more than
    a dab :) ) is a favorite, too.  
    
    I don't put sugar on the fruit or in the whipped cream, by the
    way. 
    
    --bonnie
    
    p.s. I agree about the bedtime.  Going to bed isn't a punishment,
    it's what you do at night when you're tired.  We do use "Go to
    your room until you feel able to behave civilly around other
    people," but not go to bed. 

Pat:

One tactic that works well for us is to FULLY UTILIZE Juli's love for books!
Juli has a bookcase shelf of books and another 3' stack of books on her
bedroom floor!  (my folks have bought many of them at yard sales and Jim/Juli
visit the bookstore - and each purchase a book - quite often).

So I keep a couple of books EVERYWHERE ... on her dressing table, IN HER BED!,
in the car, in the duffle bag (diaper bag) ... even in my POCKETBOOK!  I also
have books here on my desk shelf (which have been used by MANY kids who visit
our office area).

We are constantly reviewing stories and discussing them ... during dressing,
during potty sessions, travelling in the car, pre-bedtime, preparing dinner,
relaxing on the deck, in a doctor's office, etc.

Books are an excellent way to "capture" a child's attention and get them
"involved" ... makes dressing them in the morning a breeze, takes their mind
off time during potty time, relaxes them during bedtime ... I just can't imagine
life without books!

Many times it's just "interaction" ... ask them what the picture "says" to
them ... ask them to point things out in the picture ... (there are many
Find Waldo-like books for toddlers ... the pictures are bigger and objects are
easier to locate -- the pictures are STUFFED with activity).

Choices are a big thing for Juli.  She likes to make decisions ... what kind
of yogurt to eat, what sneakers to wear ... today she went to school with last
night's undershirt hanging out from under her tanktop ... so what?!  It was
easier than fighting to get the undershirt off!

We try to praise and encourage "good" behavior vs. always acknowledging bad
behavior.  Be careful when you give warning messages  (e.g. "... and don't
give your treats to the dog!") ... because you often "plant seeds" with toddlers
... they may not have given it much thought, but now that you gave them an
idea AND an ultimatum ... watch what they choose to do now!

Juli pretty much potty-trained within 3 days!  Yes, folks ... no accidents.
Then she decided that she WANTED and NEEDED her diaper (baby lifeline to Mom!).
So we had a relapse BIG TIME this past week.  Pretty much continual accidents.
Yesterday, I stopped by the Country Candle Store (Northboro, MA) and picked up
stickers, balloons, printed pencils/pens (Juli's very much into drawing with
pens/pencils these days), super-flying rubber balls and some little trinkets
and put them in a handled basket and put the basket on the bathroom vanity.
She's been dry ever since ... of course, our house is filling up with "blown-up"
balloons ... and she went to school with stickers surrounding her belly-button
and lined up her arms!   Jim was amazed how effective a bag of balloons was!

When Juli's upset about something (this morning she wanted a diaper) ... sit
down and hug and talk to her.  Juli cried and cried ... she was so convinced
she wanted and needed a diaper ... and she told me "I be your baby, Mommy ...".
Try to understand their fears and feelings.  I reassured her that being
Mommy's Girl had as many, if not more, benefits than being a baby ... but
Juli stood firm ... I gave her hugs, dressed her best I could (tanktop over
a tshirt) ... and in the end, she still gave me a big hug, I wiped her tears
and gave her a big hug ... and as she/Jim drove away, she gave me a big wave.

Yes, toddlers DEMAND attention ... give them a little, give them a hug,
acknowledge their existence ... and they will usually go about their business.
If not, let them help you peel vegetables (they'll eat them as fast as
you peel them!) ... set up a pile of toys around your feet ... sit them on
the countertop with a wooden puzzle or book and interact with them while you
do your chores ... let them ride the vacumn and knock around a dust rag with
you ... it doesn't last for long (maybe one room at best!).  

Save your energy and commitment for the wars that MUST BE FOUGHT!  You can get
a lot of mileage out of a good, hearty hug, kiss and "I love you, Honey-Bun
... you're such a good girl" ... much more effective than reacting to the
negative things that happen ... I believe you can mold a child just as
effectively with "lots of love", than with lots of "control and discipline".
It's a bit harder, but you're investing in their independence, self-esteem,
self-confidence, personality ... and teaching them LOVE and trust".

Give lots of hugs and praise ... it really does work!

Dottie

PS:  For those of your who have Shrewsbury CableVision.  Our Pedi,
     Dr. John Harding (Worcester), is doing a 30-minute special on raising
     kids.  The same show is aired 3X weekly (Channel 57 ... I don't have
     the times handy ... you can call his office:  756-2020 ... or check
     the program listing).  It's called Raising Children with God (although
     he only lightly touched on religion ... most of it was parental
     guidance and advice).  Last night's show (8-8:30 pm) talked about
     1-year-olds.  It was EXCELLENT.  He co-chaired the show with another
     female Pedi from UMass Med Center.   He said his next show would be
     on "Toddlers" (I can't wait to watch this one!!!).

Dottie,

Thanks for the advice.  Now that you mention it, she has been demanding more
attention lately.  I think I'll find a little more time in the mornings
just to snuggle or play or whatever. That's when she seems more demanding.
(HA! There goes another 15 minutes of sleep!)  (Another clue is that she's been
clingy when I drop her at daycare - almost unheard of before.)

The hugs is good advice too, altho sometimes I think I hug and kiss her more 
than she wants me to.  But on the other hand, she's been asking me to hug her 
bear and her baby and her Elmo, etc.  Maybe there's something there too.

I very much like the book idea.  Elise also has tons of books - she loves them.
I hadn't thought of scattering them around in convenient locations.  Good tactic.

I try to let her "help" me with chores, but I still haven't quite got the hang
of being a toddler mother.  I tend to underestimate her abilities (she's changing
so fast!), and my imagination is stuck in infant mode..

I suspect a side issue is the new baby due about Halloween time.  She's been
talking babies and perhaps she understands more than we give her credit for.
Lord knows she's noticed my belly; she'll pull up my shirt, pull down my shorts,
so that "Belly" is flapping in the breeze in all its glory.  Then she tells me
all about it, where my belly button is, etc.  She occasionally throws a "baby"
in there, but I'm not sure she really gets it.  So far, the baby hasn't been
partying when she does that, but one of these days I'll get my opportunity to
"introduce" them.

I agree on encouraging her, rather than disciplining her, after all that works
better on me!  I agree it takes more time and energy.  I keep telling myself
"I appreciate independence.  I appreciate independence. I appreciate 
independence."

Thanks for the advice and encouragement.

Pat

Pat:

Yeah, Juli lifts my shirt and checks out my belly button (I'm not pregnant,
though) ... tends to irritate me sometimes, but it happens so quick, I just
find myself "hanging in the breeze" before I realize half the time what
caused it!

This morning, Juli (upset over the "no diaper" situation), had a sheet of
tiny happy face stickers, which she had "circled" around HER belly button,
while I was putting on her socks and sneakers ... and before I knew it, she
raised my jersey and stuck one on my belly!  I kept telling myself ... "remember
to remove it!  remember to remove it!" (after Juli leaves).

Like I said, toddlers can be a lot of fun ... often you just have to bring
yourself "down to their level".

I've had to really loosen my standards lately!  Not only because toddlers tend
to make more messes, but worse yet, they're now demanding more attention!
So you have two strikes against you.  During the pre-two's, I was so
overwhelmed trying to stay on top of things, that I tended to try and find
ways to "keep Juli OUT of my way" ... took awhile to figure out that the
most effective way of getting things done is to INVOLVE her ... with a
toddler, this will quench their appetite for your attention and secondly, with
their short attention span, they tend to experiment (peel 1/8 of a potato),
get bored and GO AWAY!

And... just talking to them entertains them!  Even now, I find myself
thinking and talking aloud when "by myself"!  I just got so used to chattering
(so Juli thought I was giving her attention), that it's become a habit!

Juli will be 3 in September, so she's exiting most of the 2's behavior ...
and I'm going to miss it ... REALLY!  The imagination, curiosity, innocense,
independence, determination, learning curve, lovingness ... was fascinating
and fun to experience.  Dwell on the goodness of the two's ... it really
can be enjoyable and exciting  (well, most of the time!).  You'll always have
those moments when you want to go outdoors, not realizing you're barefoot and
there's a foot of snow out there ... and scream at the top of your lungs ...
and then come back in the house feeling MUCH BETTER!  My sister-in-law told
me that she'd go in her bedroom and pound the living daylights out of her
bed pillows and then fling each and every one of them across the room ...
smooth her hair down, take a deep breath ... and return to reality.  She said
it relieved a lot of pented up frustration and anger without pounding the
living daylights out of the kid!

Motherhood is NOT for whimps, folks.

Dottie

    Within 5 days of my parents' departure, my daughter settled down at
    dinner time.  She still has small snits pretty often but not the
    hour-long misbehavior that was so awful.  I think she just had to
    settle back into her routine.
    
    Now, she is merely -;) tired and hungry.  We try to rush her dinner
    onto the table as soon as possible, even if our dinner is not ready.  I
    give her a good ole PBJ sandwiche if necessary, with a bit of yogurt. 
    She'll gladly eat that.
    
    With the late sunsets as we near solstice, I can often take her out for
    a walk after supper.  She really likes it when we all walk together.
    
    A reward of a BIG KISS or a bath after dinner also helps sometimes.
    
    It's such a drag when she is hungry but too tired and worked-up to eat. 
    Sometimes I just rush her upstairs to get ready for bed.  THEN she can
    down a few cups of warm milk.  
    
    Laura
    

Well, things have improved with Elise.  Her father was gone for a four day
weekend, so it was just us until Wednesday.  I was really worried about whether
we would struggle all weekend.

I found that if I purposely set aside time to play several times a day, she 
was much happier about amusing herself when I was busy.

But I think what really made a difference was not to rush her so much in the
morning.  I get her up before I'm dressed now (it used to be when I was 
completely ready, car loaded and all), and she talks to me while I dress.  Then 
she's much more cooperative about getting dressed herself.  Looks like she's a 
night person like her father, instead of a morning person like her mother.

Liberally sprinkling books around where I most needed them helped enormously
too.

She's still quite outspoken, but I think it's going to be ok.  (Or shall we
say *I'm* going to be ok.  She wasn't the one who had a problem).

Thanks for the support and advice,

Pat

My son, Justin, is about to be 3 years old.  For the last approximately 3 months
he always starts to act up just before dinner time.  The preschool/daycare where 
he goes all day thinks in 9 times out of 10 he is the best little boy.  He 
always listens and picks up when asked.  The only time I've gotten an 
aggressive report on him is when he has ended up getting sick (once for almost
a week).  

When we tell him it's time to eat he just gets real firm and "I don't want to"
and will kick the table.  If you force him he screams and yells and fights
at the table.  I just wish for once we could have a quiet dinner the three
of us, but, he always seems distracted.   As far as I'm concerned he can
sit up in his room and not eat at all.  But usually you have the hysterical
screaming/crying in the distance while we have a very strained meal.  
And then when he's worked himself up so much and knows we are serious I can 
go up and get him and he'll usually sit and eat something.

It just seems like he's either wound up from the whole day at school (and he
still naps for an 1 1/2 or more usually.  I'm at a loss.  It just is terrible 
the only time we get to spend with him we are all doing nothing but fighting.
It's getting real old.

Sometimes at stores, he won't sit in the basket, and it seems that it's
always me he's fighting.  He hardly ever acts bad with his father.  A lot
of times I feel he's just tired (he needs at least 9 hours of sleep) and 
other times I think  he might be hyper but there are so many signs that 
he's not.  We have a doctor's appointment next week and I'm going to be talking 
to him about this.  

Can anyone offer any advice.  I'm just at wits end.

 Our sons must be going through the same stage.  Christopher will be 3 in a
couple weeks.  For the past few months he has really come into his own, 
expressing his opinions (about bath and bedtime), demanding certain things 
(particular clothes and foods) and refusing to do others (sit at the table
or in the shopping cart).  

 We have also found that he HATES for us to talk to each other.  This becomes
an effective way to get him to the table at dinner time.  My husband and I
start a convsation, "Gee, this is great, too bad Chris doesn't want any" blah,
blah blah. Until he comes to the table, usually takes less than a minute!

 Since Chris loves us to tell him stories; another way to get him to the table
is to BECOME the story.  We'll either be the TMN turtles, characters from ALL
DOGS GO TO HEAVEN, etc... eating our dinner (every one stays in character and 
we call each other by their new name).  It's actually alot of fun.

 I gave up on the shopping cart....Now, he either helps me pick out the 
groceries from the pictures on the coupon or hangs off the back of the cart.
Granted he is harder to keep track of, but much happier.

 All this testing does get a little old, I agree.  But I'd rather he be his 
own person than someone who is easily manipulated.

    Good luck,  Laura

    My daughter is 21 months old.  She has these horrible periods of
    "screaming" and no matter what you do it isn't right.  Is she hungry? 
    Is she tired?  You can't pick her up and comfort her???  We have tried
    to guess maybe she's teething or something.  Maybe this is just a
    toddler phase.  Also my husband travels extensively and since this past
    weekend he was home, she clung to him the whole time,  "My Daddy!"  "I
    want my Daddy!"  I guess I should be enjoying my time off!!??  
    
    Any ideas on the screaming!! Let's hope it passes soon.....
    
    Anne
    
    

Anne,

    I don't have any personal experience with the type of situation you
describe, so I don't have any strong suggestions.  But Parents magazine
had an article about holding your children through temper tantrums that
may be relevant to your situation.  The basic idea was that when the child
pitches a fit, you hold them very close and talk to them soothingly and
lovingly  [sounds pretty difficult - holding and comforting a kid that is
screaming and hitting and struggling to get away].  According to this article
the child will eventually calm down and appreciate being held.  Over time,
they will have fewer tantrums, and the time it takes to calm down from
each tantrum will decreace.  I got the impresion that the first time you
try this technique, it can take a very long time for the child to stop
fighting you.

    Just a thought.  Good luck.

- Carol

How do you react to the screaming? Parents have a tendency to reinforce
the behavior by rewarding it with attention, even negative attention.

At 21 months, a toddler is old enough for the concept of time-out. Remove
her from the center of action, let her calm herself down. We occasionally
had to remove my son to his room until he got it together. By trying very
hard to not react (overreact) and feed the tantrum/screaming, we eventually
got him to learn to use words to tell us what was wrong. Holding her may
also give you the same effect, if you can do it with a neutral emotional
state (not overly loving, not angry, not upset, just calm).

Also, when does it happen? My son was also affected by "night terrors". He'd
wake up from a sound sleep screaming/crying. Nothing worked to calm him down
until he was more fully awake. It was like sleepwalking, in that he was
apparently still asleep. It went away after a few months at the new daycare
center. He was around 22 months at the time.

This is just the beginning a a tough 2 years, while she learns better 
language skills, and can effectively communicate with you. Help her by being
patient, and by encouraging her to use words. Listen to her...

    I tell Paige (no longer a toddler, but still a screamer) that if
    she needs to yell, she needs to go do it in her own room because
    nobody else wants to hear it.  It actually works pretty well.  (She'll
    often go in her room and continue to scream, then come out once she's
    up to being civil.)
    
    -Tracy
    
    

Anne,

I am going through the same thing with my little girl who will be two in a 
couple of days. I also read the same article as mentioned in a previous 
reply and read a good book on discipline.  I don't remember the authors but 
here are some of their suggestions:

	o  Talk to the child calmly and let her know it is ok to be
	   angry/frustrated/upset and then try to get the child to talk
	   about her anger or find other ways to express it.  We
	   haven't been too successful with this but I do make it a point
	   to let my daughter know it is OK to be upset but try to give 
	   her other outlets to express her frustration.

	o  Holding the child, as mentioned in the last reply.  I have done
	   this as recently as yesterday but only if I feel my daughter
	   is receptive.  I don't push it because I know I wouldn't like
	   to be restrained if I were upset.  This did work yesterday 
	   but only for a while.  Once I said ANYTHING, it would set her 
	   off again.  But I did hold her and rock her several times
	   through the tantrum.

	o  Try whispering to the child.  Yes, this was a funny one and I
	   tried it several times and it worked!  My daughter stopped crying 
	   to hear what I was saying.  It can defuse the situation at which
	   point you can try to engage her in some other activity.

	o  Make sure the child is safe from harming herself while
	   having a tantrum and then just walk away.  This has worked for
	   us from time to time (but not always).  My daughter will stop
	   crying and come looking for us to make sure we are watching/
	   listening and then start crying again - it's kind of cute :-).

	o  Try to pick your battles carefully.  If you sense a tantrum
	   coming on, try to assess whether or not the battle you may
	   be starting is important enough.  If you have the time and
	   energy to let the child do as she pleases (providing it
	   isn't dangerous) then let it go.  There will be other times
	   to teach and set limits.

	We have tried all these different suggestions at different times.  
	Sometimes they work and sometimes they don't.  Along with all 
	these suggestions, stay calm and be patient.  I count to 10, alot :-)

	Our children are quite normal and, from what I read, should outgrow 
	this behavior as they develop other means for expressing these kinds 
	of emotions.

	Good Luck!  I think I can dig up the article.  Send me vaxmail if 
	you'd like a copy.

	Deanna
	

    Here is something that I sometimes do when my 2 yr 3 mo. son's temper 
    tantrums begin.  
    
    I hold him upside down by his ankles.  Within 10-30 seconds, he calms
    down and can listen to what we have to say.  Maybe the extra
    blood/oxygen to his brain is the cure ?  Or maybe the energy it 
    takes to have a tantrum in this vertical position is a tranquilizer ?
    
    Anyway, it works.  But you may get some strange looks if you try this
    in public...

    
    
    	What do you do when they get bigger and have the terrible 4's like
    mine is doing.  Just picking him up to give him a hug is hard enough. 
    I guess I could just get gravity boots.
    
    V

    At age 2 yrs. 2 months, Ilona is having a resurgence of sheer
    crankiness.  So before replying here, I reviewed all 75 replies.
    
    Did I get a big smile!  I notice that exactly 6 months ago we went
    through similar difficulties when my parents returned home after a long
    visit.  Guess who went home 3 days ago?  Right.
    
    Hopefully Ilona will again settle down.  These long family visits (this
    time grandparents AND 4 other relatives)
    are very tiring for Ilona.  While she has LOTS of fun (and this time
    LOITS of presents), it really upsets her stability.   She even had a
    resurgence of diarrhea starting a few days before my first guests
    arrived.  I was in a tizzy getting the house ready, ordering food, etc.
    
    One question I do have, that is an ongoing problem.  Ilona will take a
    proper timeout from her father but not from me.  When I put her in the
    chair she fights it physically and vocally.  I have to restrain her as
    best I can while she kicks, pulls my hair, bites, and screams.  I
    thought that this would get better with time and determination, but so
    far, no such luck.  
    
    I think my technique is just like my husband's.  He says I'm a softy
    with her but I really try hard and it is fatiguing and upsetting, plus
    I feel quite frustrated.
    
    I'm the only person with whom she pulls hair or bites.  Is that old
    song true, "We always hurt the one we love"? ;-)
    
    Laura

Laura, in our home timeout is only used for a "major offense", such as
biting, hitting, etc.  Timeout doesn't go well for us, either, but our way
of dealing with it has been to ignore Evan.  Officially he is supposed to stay
on the stairs.  He doesn't do it until the last time (I keep resetting the
buzzer until he stays on it the entire 2 minutes).  I can't say that it has
been totally successful, but something must be working because he almost never
hit us and I don't remember him scratching or biting.  It's hard to ignore him
sometimes, but after all, that is part of what "time out" is supposed to be.
The couple of times I did try to restrain Evan I noticed that 1) it only
made both of us madder, instead of calming us both down, 2) it gave him
attention when I was trying not to, and lastly 3) if I tried to lock him
in his room he would start more violent behaviours like kicking the door.

Ignoring worked much better, as well as always pointing out that if he
was angry and wanted to hit something that he could hit a pillow (or his
bed or something else that wouldn't get damaged).

Good luck.

    Carol

    Hi All,
    	This past weekend, my Wife and I went to Maine with our 25mo.
    old Son,Cameron. He was a madman. It seems for the last 2 weeks, his
    temper has been unbelievable. He's forever throwing things, and
    whenever he's given a timeout, he sits there until he calms down and
    then he goes back to the same behavior. 
    	Whenever he touches things he's not supposed to or we take
    something away from him, he goes to the nearest table, couch, chair,
    whatever is closest, and clears it. I mean he flings pillows, cosions,
    placemats, anything he can get his little hands on and throws it to the
    ground in rage. Timeouts in the corner only seem to work for a little
    while. He also gets spanked in the diaper now and then but it lasts
    about as long as the timeouts. I don't know what to do anymore. HELLPP!
    
    					Butch

    Butch,
    
    He'll do whatever he can get away with .... my boyfriend's son is
    almost 2.  I have 2 (older) boys, so I KNOW what this kid is going
    through, and I know from my own previous mistakes, that I'm not willing
    to put up with it.  And it's interesting because Greg gives his dad a
    *MUCH* harder time than he gives me.
    
    What I've found to be most effective, is the lesson of "cause and
    effect".  Greg says "No", and that means No.  Period.  He throws
    something, then he doesn't get it back.  He misbehaves and he gets a
    *VERY* stern NO! and I'm right in his face, and he understands.  It's
    hard because they're SO CUTE when they're behaving, and some of their
    behavior is so unexpected it'll make you laugh.  
    
    I don't pretend to have all the answers for all the kids, but what
    seems to be effective with Greg, and seemed to work with my own two, is
    that as their behavior progesses, so does their punishment/reprimand. 
    That doesn't mean that by the end of a particularly bad day the kids
    are beaten, but perhaps they go to bed earlier or don't get to watch a
    video or whatever.
    
    THINK about what he's doing, and what you will and will not tolerate. 
    Some battles aren't worth fighting.  Others aren't even worth having
    battles over because it's NOT an issue you want to compromise on.  Twos
    are the testing times, and he's trying to see what he can get away
    with, and exactly how far he can push you.  And if he's like any other
    2-year old I've ever seen, one of you is more lenient than the other,
    so when he's starting to act up, he'll look to the more lenient parent
    and most likely crack a smile right before he dumps his cup of juice on
    the rug.  
    
    He also most likely understands more than you realize.  TELL him why
    he's being punished.  A simple "NO THROWING!" and then remove him from
    the area (this is where a playpen is nice!).  If he cries, let him cry.
    Your reaction needs to be firm and swift.  If you let him clear the
    table twice, then you get upset the third time, it clouds the issue.
    And one last thing we save for more "drastic" reactions, is to slap on
    the hand.  Since Greg's in a hitting stage, I really prefer not to do
    this, but when he's grabbing at all the videos and whipping them across
    the room, sometimes the only answer is to smack his hand.
    
    Who's more stubborn - your son or his parents??  THAT'S who'll win in
    the end....

    My daughter is 26 months and is beginning to drive me nuts.  Yesterday,
    we were almost at church (across the street), when I realized I'd
    forgotten something and I had to turn around and go back for it.
    Tantrum #1.  When we got home, I suggested that she take a nap (she'd
    been rubbing her eyes since 10 a.m.).  Tantrum #2.  At bedtime, I put
    a onesie on her (it got pretty cold last night!), and tried to put her
    pajamas on over it...Tantrum #3.  This morning, she howled because of
    something else, I don't even remember what it was.  I've read some of
    the tips in here for coping with tantrums, but does anyone have any
    ideas on how to forestall them??  She doesn't talk too much yet....I
    know she understands a lot of words, but sometimes I'll ask her to
    please stop doing something and it's like talking to a brick wall.
    Any ideas?

    In a nutshell, you CAN'T reason with a two year old!  So don't even
    bother.  The best advise, the one which has been tried and worked by
    so many beside me, is simply ignore the behavior.  
    
    If she wan't to throw herself on the floor, kick yell and scream, then
    walk away from her, period.  If she sees she isn't getting any reaction
    from you then isn't that much simpler than attempting to talk and
    reason?
    
    Oh and does it get any better, nope!  AJ even tried the tantrum routine
    yesterday in the grocery store.  I said NO to something he wanted me to
    buy.  He threw himself down on the floor. I just kept on walking,
    pushing the cart, when I turned the corner to the next aisle he
    realized he wasn't getting any dialog or reaction from me, and gave up
    the act.  He's 6.5, fortunately he rarely ever did this, and this is
    the first one I've actually seen in a couple years.  Ever once in a
    while they just have to TRY and push a couple buttons.  Mine are
    *forever* out of order!  Oh I did do one thing that could be called a
    reaction.  I asked him afterwards in the car how on earth he got such
    dirty knees?  I knew, I just wanted to see how he would react, he acted
    a little embarassed for doing something so immature.
    
    Lyn

To prevent tantrums, what we did was try to give lots of warnings of
things to come.  For instance, I learned not to say, "okay, it's time to
go" unless I had first said "we'll be leaving in 5 minutes" and then later
"we'll be leaving in 2 minutes" and something like "get ready to leave, honey,
only 1 more minute".  

It didn't make all the problems disappear, but it reduced the number quite
a bit.

A similar help was trying to give power to the child where at all possible.
Things like, do you want to go now, honey, or play another 5 minutes and
then go?  Or, "do you want to wear this shirt or this shirt when we go to XXX
this morning?"   With time situations, quite often my child would announce the
time was up before the actual time had passed.  It was important that I didn't
give an option I wasn't willing to deal with, and tried to make things win-win
as much as possible.  He got something he wanted (like weird combinations of
clothes sometimes) and I got what I wanted (a happy trip to xxxx).

     Carol

    We have a (almost) two year old and I believe that I can (to some
    extent) reason with him.

    Spencer does not really have temper tantrums but he can get incredibly
    frustrated and cry. Usually these "fits" are because:
    	
    	1. He is tired
    	2. He (like your daughter) does not have advanced language skills
    and often gets frustrated because he can't *tell* us what he wants.

	Instead of ignoring him we acknowledge him (boy, you sure are
    angry, or my, my. you must be very tired) and essentially give him
    permission to be angry or tired or whatever. In our case, once we
    acknowledge him (hey, kids are people and adults like to be acknowledged
    why not kids) the fits seem to subside.

    	We also use distraction *after* we have acknowledged the emotion.
    We'll try another toy or another food or whatever.

    	Lastly, if he is so far gone that he just needs to emote, we let
    him and just make sure to give him hugs afterwards so that he knows he
    is not "bad".

    	Granted, in our house, temper tantrums are far and few between and
    so it is easy to be patient when one comes up (I'd guess we get one
    where he loses it about every three weeks). I have a friend who can not
    take her child to the store without at least four or five throw himself
    on the ground hysterical fits.

    	I'm afraid that I would not have advice for that situation as I
    would have run away from that long before ;-)

    	God certainly knew what he was doing when he gave us our kids, I
    honestly would not be able to cope with some of the kids that I have
    seen and I have nothing but respect and admiration for parents of
    willful children. You are doing a job that I don't believe I ever
    could.
    
    
    				Wendy

                                                        

I have found that giving Noelle advance warning has worked.  She is only 13
months old, but she started in with some tantrums a few weeks ago.  And the
common catalyst seemed to be that I would interrupt her activity to pick her
up and take her to some new activity (like a meal!).  Now, I spend about
2-3 minutes babbling about whatever it is that I want her to do next.  Then
we go do it without a fuss.  I doubt that she understands *everything* I
say, but I suspect she picks up on a few key words and gets the general gist
of things.  

Try to imagine things from your child's point of view.  She's involved in
some activity or anticipating the next activity, when suddenly she's whisked
off in a different direction.  It must be frustrating to have so little
control.

Hope this works for you!

- Deb

    Be careful how you say things, that might cause a tantrum.  For
    example, when you had to turn around and go back to the car, don't 
    say, "Oh, darn, we have to go back."  And when you put the onesie on
    under the pajamas, don't say, "You have to wear this".  Instead try to
    sound like you think it's a good thing, as in, "You get to wear this!"
    
    Of course, you may have already been announcing things in this positive
    manner, so this advice may not be helpful to you.  But I found that my 
    little boy usually mirrored and magnified whatever emotion I displayed 
    about a situation.  When I am able to keep things cheerful and upbeat,
    it seems to reduce (although not eliminate) the tantrums.
    
    Jane

    We are having fewer and fewer tantrums, but at around 2 we would have
    them daily.  Getting ready for work in the morning was the worst!  It
    wasn't fun at all...
    
    We would offer her a *lot* of choices.  Do you want the onsie with the
    cars or the bunnies?  Do you want your cereal with milk in the cup or
    in a bowl?  Do you want the red or the green sippy cup?
    
    Our goal was to give her a choice in everything that really didn't
    matter to us, but seemed to matter a lot to her.  (The color of the
    sippy cup was one of those critical issues that I just never
    understood.)  It did help a lot. 
    
    This questions stuff is hard.  It takes more time to do things and can
    be frustrating.  But dealing with a tantrum is also frustrating.
    
    Now that she is 3, life is much, much easier!
    
    judy

What Wendy said, too!  I forgot about being tired.  (HOW could I forgot
THAT?!)  That is the #1 reason for problems with our kids and with other
kids that we have witnessed.  You are just *asking* for it when you
bring a tired kid somewhere.  I remember shopping and watching kids 
tantruming, and saying to Shellie, "It's nap time; what do they expect?"

Then, of course, we started taking Evan out when he was tired, too.
We knew better, but sometimes we adults just *have* to get out of the house.
Often, we paid for it.

So, all of the choices and warnings are great, but the #1 preventer is
to make sure they get rest when they are tired.  :-)  Plan your schedule
around those times so you don't take them out or do anything else important
when they might need to sleep/rest.

      Carol

    Looks like are terrible twos with Neel have started early. He is 15
    months old and since about 4-5 days ago can have a really entertaining
    tantrum. I know it is entertaining now, but is going to get
    non-entertaining real soon. He has a bad temper (gets it from Mom and
    Dad...times 2). When he does  not get what he wants usually his
    pacifier or not being taken out for a walk, he sits down on the floor,
    puts his head on the floor and cries/screams. Oh, first he starts
    walking backwards until he reaches a wall or furniture to stop him and
    then he proceeds to sit and scream. He will do that for a while, then
    stand up, hold on to the nearest piece of furniture and bend over and
    scream and look at us in between screams to see our reaction. We let
    him go one day to see how long he can keep it up. He clocked at 15
    minutes before he was tired.
    
    Now we have his playpen which he rarely used and he spends his tantrum
    in there, like a timeout. Got to see how effective it is going to be.
    He has also started to pull his sister's or my hair, especially
    Avanti's. Yesterday he pulled her down by her shirt to get at her hair.
    He also likes to hug her and then proceed to try to bite her tummy.
    Either he is getting to be a bully or his gums are really bothering
    him.
    
    Time for some strategic parenting. We never had to do this with Avanti.
    He is making up for her :-(
    
    Shaila

    Carol's note about tired children reminded me of our neighbor.  her
    little girl (6 months or so) came with them for coffee one afternoon. 
    This was the typical first time overbearing South American mother.  She
    could not leave the kid alone.  She would not let anyone touch the
    child, nothing (even today, at 6 years old, the kid isn't allowed to
    play with the others in the neighborhood).
    
    Anyway, it's mid nap time and this child is FUSSY.  Rather than putting
    her to bed or holding her quietly so she can sleep, the mother starts
    jostling her around and shaking her to keep her awake!  In the
    meantime, this kid is doing everything she she can, despite the
    interruptions, to fall asleep LOUDLY.  And the mother is apologizing
    all over the place that the baby has always been difficult and fussy
    and what can you do?
    
    :-)
    

    15 months? Sounds like teeth.  His molars could be coming in.  My kids
    were both cranky with their molars.  Make sure you have something to
    put on his gums, like Orajel or a teething ring that is cool and smooth
    and hard.  My daughter liked the handle of a toothbrush.  Don't ask!!
    
    Hair-pulling is totally unacceptable behavior in our house, so when
    the kids started it (they do it just to see what it is like), I would
    gently untangle their hands from my hair and say, "No.  Hair pulling
    hurts."  If they did it again, I put them down, saying something like,
    "I can't hold you if you're going to pull my hair.  Hair pulling
    hurts."  I don't know if I ever got through to them, but I noticed that
    they usually started hair pulling, eye-gouging, etc., when they were
    tired/bored/etc., so usually the change of scenery (on the floor,
    bedtime, etc.) was something they needed.
    
    I think ALL kids throw some kind of tantrum when they don't get what
    they want!!  Our son, now 5, will pout and sulk.  Our daughter, the
    26-month-old of .80, will tantrum.  I think this is normal.  
    
    If your 15-mo.-old is watching you for your reactions, I suggest you
    try ignoring him completely.  Easier said than done, I know.  I wasted
    a lot of precious time and energy trying to reason with my son when he
    was all wound up, and we both ended up yelling.  Don't do it.  You
    can't win.

    RE:-1
    
    I think it is teething as well, since he has been chewing on his
    fingers aimed at his molars. I can see his teeth thru the gums but they
    have not cut. He has been drooling excessively over the last 10 days.
    
    He has reduced his hair pulling episodes since I have been saying "No
    hair pulling! Gentle! <the word for love in our native language>" while
    gently untangling the hair from his hands. If three attempts don't work
    then he gets removed from the situation and seated on one side by
    himself and I tell him why he was put there. Wonder if he knows what I
    am doing? He now starts to put his hand in Avanti's hair, stops and
    then retracts after looking at me.
    
    Whenhe gets a tantrum we have learned to ignore him while stifling our
    laughter since he looks very funny when he does his routine.
    
    Oh, 2 milestones : (I know different note) he seems to have given up
    his pacifier- he went 24 hours without asking for it. He now says "Look
    at this", "What's that","This", "That", "Doggie" and "Bowwow" in
    addition to "Dadda" "Mamma" and others. Ok, OK I will continue inthe
    appropriate note :-)
    
    Shaila

    
    okay, whiney 15 mo twins! I do a 4 day week, and so moodswings in the house
    are wider than usual, as its either all go, or all stop 8-)
    
    For the past month I've noticed the kids are particularly whiney, when
    they want something they'll whine and point at it, if we take them in
    the back to play and they don't want to, they'll stand at the patio door
    whining, if they want to take something off but can't, they'll stand
    there and whine until we help them. Etc! If they're hungry they'll
    stand in the kitchen wailing for the 5 minutes it takes to get things
    together. There doesn't seem to be any medical things like teeth or ear 
    infections or splinters or rashes.
    
    So I'm looking for advice for how to get my babies back to being happy
    and go-with-the-flow kids, like they were before! 
    
    What we're started yesterday was to try and structure the day, rather
    than going to bed whenever we all feel like it, we're going to start on
    a 8:15 bedtime with 15 minutes in the bedroom first getting changed,
    regular activities during the day (30 mins drawing, 30 mins reading, 15
    mins outside, 10 minutes cuddle, all mins). What else have people done
    to turn whiney kids back into happy kids?
    
    thanks ! Simon

	Emily whined at about that age to indicate something that
	she wanted (ie. if I was feeding her and she wanted more,
	she sort of whined and pointed)

	She outgrew this as her vocabulary grew.

	We tried to help by asking, "what do you want Emily ?" or "do
	you want more food?"  If she whined when she knew the word, like
	Juice, we'd ask if she wanted some, and ask her to say juice and
	would make a big fuss over her when she did.

	It only lasted about a month, if that.

	Karen

    Charlotte was about like Emily - whines for something she can't 
    describe (and we are being bone-headed about understanding her 
    gestures and pointing).
    The twins could be either tired or frustrated at being unable to
    communicate their wants better. You can help the tired part I suppose,
    but the frustrating will only be eased when they learn to communicate
    better or learn to do some action better.
    I think the structuring of sleep times is a good idea though - it 
    helps.
    
    Sit tight - it'll pass (eventually!)
    
    Monica (waiting to be hit by terrible twos....)

    
    just read the previous 94 notes! Whew! I didn't identify this as the
    terrible twos, but since Clay the moderator moved my note here, it sure
    rings a lot of bells!
    
    We're going to try a bunch of the previous ideas,
    
    Simon

>>>>	 Monica (waiting to be hit by terrible twos....)

	Shouldn't be too far off.  Emily's discovered tantrums - luckily,
	they're not too bad, but it's rough to see her laying on the floor
	crying irrationally for even a minute or two.  

	So far, we've only had a problem when she's tired.  Unfortunately,
	she's starting to shift from two naps to one, so by 5:30, she's
	starting to get cranky.  I assume it'll take us a couple weeks
	to figure a new nap schedule for her, then things will even out
	again.

	Karen

    I have seen the tantrums once or twice; mostly when its time
    to stop with crayons before SHE's interested in stopping. That
    gets a surprisingly dramatic response.
    
    Charlotte has been napping only once a day for a long time now; 
    she averages about 1.5 hours, but can vary from 1 to 3 hours.
    
    She's sleeping from 8pm to 7am (when we wake her to take her to
    the caregivers).
    
    Monica

    Yup, we're going through the same thing with Sarah.  It mostly happens
    when she's frustrated, can't figure out what she wants to do or how to
    tell us what she wants (and she's extremely verbal).  There's also a
    bit of a power struggle, too, no you may not play with your crayons
    anywhere else but in your high chair.  Usually I'll let her vent for a
    few but if it continues I'll diffuse the situation.  I can't say that
    it's been bad.
    
    Sarah's nap schedule has also changed, too.  She used to have 2 naps
    but is now down to one afternoon nap and that seems to be for about an
    hour and a half.  She is just like her father in that she's a night
    owl, loves to stay up late and sleep late.  Right now I put her to bed
    at 9 (from 8 to 9 we have a momentous burst of energy) and she sleeps
    until we wake her up in the morning (although I think she'd sleep until
    8 or so if we didn't).
    
    Susan

    2.5 year old Hollis has started throwing tantrums for what appear to be
    no reason at all!!!  Last night I said -- and I quote -- "Come on,
    honey, it's time for supper," and she threw herself on the floor and
    started screaming.  Monday morning she threw a tantrum because she
    didn't want to leave the pediatrician's office --she was having too
    much fun playing.  Now I'm glad she doesn't throw a fit about *going*
    to the doctor's any more, and under other circumstances I would have
    let her play a bit, but I had to go to work and James had to go to
    school, so.....This morning, my husband got her up, carried her into
    the kitchen, gave her her juice and then sat down on the sofa with her
    -- you guessed it, another tantrum.
    
    Another thing is, she wants her pacifier *a lot,* much more than usual. 
    I've tried telling her she can't take it to day care with her, but
    that causes *another* tantrum, and I'm not very good at handling
    morning tantrums.  (It makes ME want to have a tantrum!!)  
    
    Any help/sympathy/etc. out there?  I've been trying to "pick my
    battles," but I'm afraid I've only succeeded in spoiling her.
    
    Kate

    
    << (It makes ME want to have a tantrum)
    
    Why not?  It worked for my mom when my nephew started the
    "terrible two tantrums" during a visit....
    
    My S-i-l gave in to avoid conflict, so he started doing the
    tantrums at the drop of a hat.  He pulled a tantrum on my
    mom, including throwing himself on the floor, and flailing
    about.  My mom also dropped to the floor, and joined in whole
    heartedly.
    
    Completely floored the kid!  He didn't know what to do....
    And he stopped pulling that garbage at my mom's. (8
    
    

	My daughter's only 19 months old, so I'm no expert on 2.5, but
	for the tantrums Emily's started, we've mostly ignored her until
	she's done.  

	If they were occuring with much frequency and we needed to get somewhere,
	I'd probably start allocating more time to get ready, planning time
	into the schedule for a tantrum.

	Other suggestions I've heard is to allow the child a tantrum, but
	carry them to the bedroom and say, "you can have your tantrum here,
	then come out when you're done" and walk away...

	Karen

    	Ah, you too. Spencer is firmly in the two stage. We have to be
    careful how things are done, if the french toast is cut in the wrong
    direction, he spins off. If we pour the juice into the wrong color
    glass, he spins off.

    	He is being two.

    	I think that what is happening is that he is realizing that he can
    control his environment and is testing us to his limits. And believe
    me, sometimes, he certainly tests me to *my* limits.

    	Another thing is that Spencer is figuring out that he has
    preferences and yet he does not have the verbal skills to express that.
    Life can sometimes be very frustrating when you are two.

    	Defuse, defuse, defuse, change the scenery, change the
    circumstances, tell her you love her, allow her to vent and 
    maintain as much patience as you can.

    	This two shall pass.	

    				Wendy

    And give warning before things happen, don't just say "time to go"
    and expect a calm child.  Sometimes just "We'll be going in two 
    minutes" is a big help.  Twos don't like being pushed around (who
    does?).
    
    		-John Bishop

    Russell (3 yrs) went through the same thing.  We started giving him
    choices - we ask him which cup, which way to cut things etc.  We also
    place a time limit on how long we wait for an answer!  If we ask/tell
    three times, then it just gets done.  If a temper tantrum erupts, it's
    either the naughty step (if it was over cleaning up etc) or up to his
    room to take a "nap" (Russell's word at home for grabing all his
    stuffies in bed and calming himself down). When he was just starting
    the 2's we would put him in his crib with his favorite blankie/stuffie
    and let hime calm himself down after lots of hugs.  Seems to work - and
    it will pass.
    
    marianne (who wrote .0 some time ago and is now a pro at handling the
    tantrums)

    Charlotte is starting too. 
    
    My husband said he heard somewhere of an amusing parental tactic
    when faced with a public tantrum.
    Child lying on floor in mall screaming and flailing arms, legs, etc.
    Parent puts little sign over toddler that says: "
    Tantrum in Progress, please disregard."
    
    Monica
    

Elise did the Pheasant Lane Mall tantrum once - I
was 7 months pregnant with Sarah, and I had pushed
us both too far.  We needed food, and we were on
our way to Burger King.  She couldn't hold out.

She threw herself to the floor and cried like I
had tried to kill her.  I just sat down on the
floor next to her, belly and all, and waited 
until she finished.

I got interesting looks - encouragement from people
with small kids, amusement/encouragement from
grandparents, horror from teenage girls (GOOD!!!),
completely ignored by teenage boys.

Eventually, Elise pulled herself together, and we
chatted for a few minutes about how we were too 
hungry and should have gone for lunch sooner.  Then
we walked off to go eat.

Not really all that embarassing....

Pat

    We are in the same place with Christopher, who is 2 1/2. I notice that
    his terrible two's are very distinctly different from what I remember
    of Ryan's (now 5 1/2).  Each child varies, that's for sure.
    
    He also wants his pacifier more lately - I think mid-2's are a time of
    underlying anxiety in a way, as they strive to be independent and
    babies at the same time. We set the limit that he can sit in the
    rocking chair in his room with it, and when he's done, put it back in
    the crib and come out of his room.
    
    We also have a lot of tantrums that come seemingly out of the blue. If
    it happens, for example, just when we're sitting down to supper, I'll
    say that he can either sit down with us or go into time out. Depending
    on how hungry he is:-), he'll usually opt to sit with us.
    
    Ah, what a great age!
    

    Our oldest, Connor, will be 3 next month.  He recently moved up in his
    daycare program into the preschool room.  Coupled with the fact that
    he is seeing some new "behaviors" at school and is approaching 3, he
    is becoming quite difficult.  Actually there are times he is like a
    Jekyll and Hyde.  He has a 11 month old brother who he is generally
    quite good to, but boy when he's in a bad mood he has a mean streak
    in him (will taunt, push, etc) his brother.  Generally when Connor
    breaks the rules he goes on time out.  Until about a month ago this
    usually worked.  But lately it just sets him off even more and he'll
    work himself into a full blown temper tantrum.  Any suggestions on
    how to help him deal constructively with his anger and pull him out
    of these tantrums before they become "extreme"?  This past weekend
    was especially difficult - Saturday was deplorable and Sunday he was
    an angel (well..almost).  Thus, our Jekyll and Hyde.  Any suggestions?
    If it makes any difference his preschool teacher said he is VERY well
    behaved at school, it's a rare occassion he is on time out, and
    typically reminds some of the others of the "rules".  Why is he acting
    out so much at home?  

    We have the same problems with our daughter Mirjam, 3y6mos, and have
    traced it to 'impression overload' at preschool. We have cut preschool
    back a bit, and she is improving. There is simply so much to do, see,
    learn, that she get's too tired to wellbehave at home. The more intense
    your child is, the more you may see this behaviour IMO.  
    You might check if Connor usually recovers a bit during the weekend.
    Solutions? Check if he can catch extra sleep I think. Do not give him to
    many new things when he's at home. Do not expect wonders, and hope it
    will go away in time.   

My daughter is 22 months old and in the past two weeks, we have noticed a 
marked increase in the tantrums!  They all seem to be related to her frustration
at doing things.  For ex., she will try to pick up a whole bunch of flash
cards..one of them will slip out of the pile....she gets so frustrated that
she will fling the whole lot away and scream!  She can verbalise very well...she
can tell us that the cards fell down...but there's seems to be nothing that
we can do to help her deal with the frustration.  This usually leads to her
screaming and crying...a timeout only seems to increase the screaming. 
Distraction works occasionally!  Help...we are open to ideas!!

    I'm there too with Atlehi.  
    
    it will get better once she gains some more skills, but....
    
    Long experience with three kids over 21 years has taught me that this
    will be ongoing.  
    
    (Of course I am so even tempered that I never do anything like this and
    it is always a shock when the kids do.  Must be their father's side of
    the family)  ;-)
    
    meg

    From what I've read, this is their "self criticizing" part.  You can't
    help her much, because she's mad that SHE can't do it.  Giving her a
    "timeout" may only aggravate it because it may re-enforce her own
    thoughts of failure.  
    
    I don't have any great ideas .... maybe if you're playing with the
    cards, you can drop them all and laugh about it or something.  SHOW her
    that doing something incorrectly can sometimes be funny (or more
    lighthearted than ANGER!).  
    
    When Jonathan (who's not quite at the terrible twos, but is working up
    to it!) "fails" at something, I'll say UH OH!  With a big smile, and
    try to "right" it for him, or give him something that he CAN do well.
    
    For my older two, when they hit this stage, I used to HIDE things that
    they couldn't do well.  You may say it's not good to do because then
    they don't learn different things, but my feeling was what they were
    mostly learning at this age was self-confidence, and having a bunch of
    toys they couldn't play with "properly" or that frustrated them, wasn't
    helping them any at all.
    
    Your mileage may vary....
    
    

    My son starting going through this when he ~20 mos. He just turned 2
    last Tues. and I can tell you that this frustration comes and goes. 
    
    He used to get frustrated with certain toys, like puzzles and shape
    sorter things. He would display similar behavior to what you've described. 
    He would push the toy away or throw it and let out a yell.  
    
    The way I've dealt with it is to just encourage him and say it's OK
    over and over again and to help him out with it. I don't think a
    timeout would be effective. I think it's a normal response and behavior
    that's acceptable although trying. 
    
    Now that Andrew's 2, he gets frustrated about different things, like
    getting dressed. It's the same thing. We just work through it. 
    
    Trantrums are a different story. I will not give Andrew attention for
    throwing a fit. If he throws a fit I will stand nearby so I know he's
    not hurting himself but I will ignore him (not go to him and hold him
    and not talk to him) until he stops. I don't want to enforce negative 
    behavior. I think it's worked because he rarely has a trantrum. 
    
    Good luck with this "stage". 
    
    Karen

I need some help/advice/encouragement desparately!  I have an 18-month old
boy who I love very much, but he is a parent's worst nightmare - or at
least my worst nightmare.  To look at him, you would think he was such an
angel.  He started with the biting and head butting at about 6 months.  He
would usually just bite when he was teething.  He has always seemed to lack
patience had thus the head butting and tantrums when he didn't get what he
wanted when he wanted.  This included (and still does sometimes) not
getting feed quick enough.  He has been a GREAT eater - even likes brussel
sprouts, cauliflower, carrots, etc..  I just can't seem to get him food
fast enough.  I have learned not to put him in his chair until his food is
ready and on a plate which does seem to help.

What he has progressed to is biting out of frustration or anger, hitting
and slapping and pinching and pushing.  Mostly the pushing he does with the
other kids at daycare.  This past weekend is when he started the hitting
and pinching.  Both my daycare mother and myself are at wits end in trying
to discipline him.  As she said, she gives him timeouts, but it doesn't
seem to deter the behavior (except for the moment).  Next time he gets
frustrated or angry he repeats this behavior.  I just spoke to my daycare a
little while ago to see how he was doing today and she said that he only
had one incident so far where a little boy in daycare (15 months old) was
playing with a toy telephone and Corey (my son) grab it away.  The daycare
mother took the toy from Corey and said no, that AJ was playing with it and
gave Corey a different toy to play with.  He "seemed" to handle it okay,
but a little while later when AJ had put down the toy Corey picked it up
and hit AJ with it. 

This is his third week and this daycare.  The daycare we had previously
decided to go back to work.  He was biting (as I said mainly when he was
teething) at this daycare, but none of this other stuff!  I do believe he
is getting his two year molars in so I'm sure that has something to do with
the biting, but what about the hitting/slapping/pinching/pushing?  He's
turning into a bully.

At church this past Sunday, I was holding him and he started hitting me in
the face and pinching my mouth.  I tried to hold his hands and say "no
Corey, be nice to mommy", but he would smile and do it some more.  He did
seem a little tired, cuz every so often he would stop, put his head on my
shoulder and suck his thumb (he's a big-time thumb sucker).  At one point
my husband said, "give him to me" and Corey did the same thing to him
(hitting, pinching, etc...).  The only other thing is since he has been
going to this new daycare we have been working to get him to take one nap
in the afternoon instead of his usual two naps.  

I am also expecting a second child in January and I am quite concerned
about how he'll behave towards his new little sister - will he bite and
pinch her too?

I'm really at my wits end!!!  Any help, suggestions, encouragement,
identification would be GREATLY appreciated!!!

/Karen

               
    Karen,
    
    I can only offer you my condolences - you have described our youngest
    son Alex to a "t".  I just don't understand where Alex even got the
    *idea* to hit, scratch, and bite when he gets frustrated (and he gets
    frustrated/angry about the darnedst things...).  Alex is 17 months old
    and is pretty much non-verbal; I'm hoping that as he gets older and
    can express his frustrations with words that this behavior will
    subside.  Funny thing is that in spite of this nasty behavior, he is
    a very sensitive child (cries when he gets yelled at, wants to be
    held alot, etc.)
    
    I hope your note generates some good ideas for curing this problem
    (or at least coping suggestions!)
    
    Carol   

    My youngest son, Logan, went thru this too at about that age.  He was
    a monster!  I, too, was pregnant around that time and it seemed that
    I had a harder time handling him becuase i just didn''t have the
    energy to discipline him consistently.  Anyway, what I have noticed
    with my son is now that he is able to communicate better with words
    (he is 26 months old now) he's not quite as aggressive as he was.
    He still has his moments (!) but for the most part has grown out of
    the hitting stage.   I think alot of their frustration comes from
    not being able to communicate their needs.  Also, at that age,
    they are still learning about sharing and taking turns and tend
    to be very aggressive in order to get what they want (toy, attention,
    etc...)
    
    Lila
    

re: -1, -2

it's funny both of you mentioned communication.  my daycare provider went
to a meeting last night with her daycare group and discussed this
agressiveness and many of the other daycare providers agreed that this is
his way of trying to communicate and to get attention.

when i pick corey up from daycare, first thing he does when he gets in the
house is point to the cabinets or refrigerator and goes "uh-uh-uh".  I know
he wants some juice and i do say "corey want some juice?  can you say
juice, corey?"  then he'll get frustrated and start the "uh-uh-uh's" in a
much louder tone.  he also does this when he wants to watch barney, when he
wants something at the dinner table....just about all the time.

i am not always consistent about saying the "word" when i know what he
wants.  sometimes (if he's really frustrated) and i'm tired, i'll just give
him whatever i think he's asking for.  if i pick the wrong thing though,
watch out!

also, as carol mentioned, when corey is not frustrated or tired, he is a
very sensitive little boy and cries when he gets yelled at and wants
attention ALL the time.........except in the tubby where he content to play
by himself - he loves his tubbys - thank god!

/karen

    
    Is it possible that they're bored??  I find this a lot when it hits
    this time of year especially - the kids are BORED to death, and are
    much more easily aggravated.  In which case, you can try to make a
    point of REALLY entertaining them to the point of exhaustion.
    
    The other possibility is that they ARE getting some sort of attention
    for their bad behavior, and thus keep repeating it.  Are the timeouts
    very "removed"?  A lot of times sitting in a high chair or playpenor
    some place that's very removed from the rest of the kids is more
    effective.  When Jonathan acts mean like that, he gets scolded, if he
    starts swinging/kicking at me, he gets a spanking.  That usually puts
    him into total breakdown/crying etc.  Then he gets ignored.  When he
    finishes crying, I'll ask him if he's done yet, if he's all better now,
    explain what he did wrong, we cuddle (if he'll let me (-;), and then
    he's off again.  He's a little older than the kids here (he's 2), and
    I'm not sure when I started doing this, but I just refuse to partake in
    that sort of behavior at all, and he gets the message pretty clearly. 
    He's certainly not perfect, but more than acceptable.
    
    Good luck!
    Patty

	Hi,

	I don't really remember my daughter going through this particular
	stage at that age (thank godness)  But she is 2.5 now and started
	biting a few months ago.  She's only bitten about 3 times and I
	was always the victim.  The first time I was shocked and yelled out
	in pain.  Then I explained it hurt and wasn't nice.  The next
	time she was hugging me and very upset about something (frustrated)
	I immediately stopped hugging her and told her that I didn't want
	to hug someone who was biting me and explained again. Then I said
	if she could give kisses instead of bites, I was ready to hug again.
	The next time the same thing happened and I explained that she 
	could bite her blanket or stuffed animal if she was frustrated,
	but not people. This seems to be working.

	Anyway, since it might be teething pain along with frustration,
	maybe you could say something like " I know it's very hard and
	you get upset when you can't have the toy you want (or whatever
	is frustrating him)  but you can not bite people.  You can bite
	this teething ring (or blanket or stuffed animal) if you want 
	though"  Maybe that will help.  I find that explaining that you
	understand their feelings and explaining what they can do about
	it helps alot. 

	I sympathize with you though, each child is so different and you
	just have keep trying things until something works or they outgrow
	the phase, good luck.  It seems so hard when you're in the middle
	of these things.  But Kristen was 18months a year ago and it's
	hard to remember now how she acted then.

	Good luck,
	Karen T.

    
    Funny how I just read 119 replies and all replies that talked about
    their children not listening to them but the other parent were the
    mothers.  Just *how come* the father's seem to get the point across and
    not the mothers?  I don't believe for a minute that its all because of
    their stern voice.
    
    Anyways... Paul is now a few months shy of being three years old.  He
    has been the average child so far.  We experience some trantrums and
    the ol' timeouts have seemed to work.  Not anymore though.  
    
    I am especially aggravated with the lack of respect in public places. 
    Paul tested me to the limit last night in CVS.  He started grabbing the
    nail polish remover and pretending to drink it.  I got concerned
    because I figured it I let him do this then eventually he would try and
    take the top off and then he would be in big trouble so I firmly told
    him not to do that and put it back.  He hit me in the face and said NO
    Mommy.  So I more firmly told him to stop it and he just laughed and
    started to pull my hair.  It was obvious that he thought we were joking
    around... until he got put in the carraige.  From then on he was
    repeatingly told that he would not get to walk because he was not being
    a good boy.  He then told me to "Go away Mommy!"  I was mortified as
    some grandmother looked on like I used to do when I didn't have kids
    with the ol, "Can't you control your children" look.
    
    Any advice on how to handle public outbursts like this?   
    
    And while I'm on the subject, Paul has not been listening to me at home
    either.  Everything seems to be joke with him when I tell him to do
    something.  He hits me more than I remember.  Not hard mind you, but
    the pushing and shoving is so aggravating.  From what I have read in
    these replies .. he is testing me and I should be more firm with the
    timeouts.  But what about the public places?  I just couldn't of let
    him sit there and pretend to drink the poisonious liquids!
    
    cj

    
    Cj,
    
    	YWMV, but I have a very short fuse. The first couple of times
    my daughter made a scene in public, I just took her and went home.
    I tried not to bring her shopping with me when she was that age.
    When I had to shop with her, I would tell her before entering the
    store exactly what I would do in the store and what I would expect 
    from her, if she didn't cooperate we would leave. I didn't discipline 
    her in public since it wasn't an appropriate place - too much pressure. 
    That worked for us - after a few incidents, she got the idea. 
    
    
    Eva
    

    Depends on how extreme the outburst is on how I handle it.  Atlehi is
    not permitted to run loose in stores, as she is at the "bolt phase,"
    and unlike the dog, who has learned to keep me in eyesight, I don't
    feel safe enough in a store environment to hide until she figures out
    mom is lost.  
    
    Hitting is a major offense that we are working on right now.  At home
    it is dealt with by setting her down on the couch firmly and being left
    in timeout for a bit.  Except when she is in hyper-tired mode, this
    works pretty well.  In stores, again it results in being in the cart,
    in the seat part (which she hates, she likes to ride in with the stuff)
    and belted in.  
    
    As far as the no mommy and "go away" or, in her case "Shut you mouth!"
    (Picked it up from me yelling at the dog, I guess) to me the best way
    to handle this is not to respond to this, as this seems to be an age of
    figuring out what gets a rise out of people.  As for what other people
    think?  tough!  They may have forgotten what 3-year-olds are like, or
    possibly have never experienced one of their own.  My oldest, who is
    known by many as the "perfect grandchild," did the same thing to us,
    and she is quite nice, polite, responsible and adult now.  
    
    meg

I'll do timeouts in public places as well.  Hitting is *not* allowed in
our family, no matter who does it or where.  It's harder to figure out a 
way to do a timeout in a store, but it can be done, and it can be effective.

On the lighter side...One story I remember well, and so far it hasn't happened
to us.  A friend was in a grocery store with her 3 year old son.  He was
full of mischief as ever, but the day wasn't extraordinary.  They were walking
down the aisle when suddenly he ran ahead of her, threw himself on the ground
in front of her cart, and screamed, "Don't beat me, Mommy!" 

She nearly died of embarrassment as people turned and stared at her.  What did
she do?  Moved the cart around him and kept going.  :-) 

       Carol

    
    Hitting like that is definitely a phase (well, with my kids anyway!),
    and it all seems to matter how quickly/sternly it's dealt with.
    
    I didn't used to be as stern w/ Jonathan, and now it's gotten to be a
    problem.  I don't agree however, that it's just Moms that have trouble
    with the kids.  Jonathan's dad is only partly in the picture, and
    Jonathan seems to hold out some sort of "punishment" for dad most of
    the time.  Usually this is mostly withholding affection, but the kid
    can be a downright BRAT to his father, and try things he wouldn't
    *DREAM* of trying with me.  Dad looks to me to "do something". 
    Sometimes I do.  Sometimes I tell him it's his son too - deal with it!
    But Dad doesn't always deal with it, and the problem goes on.
    
    Jonathan will slap at me occassionally, but it's almost ALWAYS
    predictable.  I remind him before he hits me "Don't you hit me!", and
    that's usually enough.  He definitely picks on his brothers more, and
    on one a lot more than the other.  But the one that he picks on never
    says "no" to him.  The other (older) one is right there telling him "No
    Jonathan!!  DON'T HIT!" (of course then he'll hit the middle son, but
    that's another story!).  
    
    Timeouts in public .... usually the cart or stroller for us.  If he has
    a fit, oh well.  I've listened to plenty of other people's kids' having
    a fit.  Jonathan's are pretty short lived, and usually reserved to a
    few mean words.  "Go away!" is definitely one of them.  I tend to
    completely ignore him when he's in this phase, if it's at ALL possible.
    If I'm shopping and going to be in one place for a while, I'll sit him.
    And occassionally his 2 older brothers need a reminder, so they'll have
    to sit, sometimes on their hands, with their eyes and mouths shut (when
    they're REALLY bouncing off the walls!).  It's hard to get into trouble
    or be too disturbing in that position.
    
    As for listening in general ..... welcome to the age of "actions and 
    consequences".  When I swear the most prominant thought in their brain
    seems to be "Well, what's the WORST that she's going to do?" and then
    they act accordingly.  There has to be a good deterrent, in my opinion.
    Hey - why NOT throw the spaghetti all over the walls?!?  It looks
    pretty cool!!  Sure, mom will get upset and yell for a minute.  She
    might even let me sit on the big poofy couch while she cleans it up. 
    But that's it .... And when I get done with that, I think I'll spill my
    punch on the rug and fingerpaint with it.  And if she tries to stop me,
    I'll smack her - that always makes her react 'big'!!
    
    If he throws supper, there's no more food *PLUS* he can help clean it
    up.  If he moves on to plan b, and c and d, and it's successive in the
    same night, bedtime gets closer and closer.  Timeouts on the couch,
    turn into the stairs, turn into the middle of the kitchen floor with
    Mom nearby.  
    
    Luckily, I haven't had to go that far .... Jonathan's very aware of
    being "punished" and he REALLY hates it, so he tends to behave pretty
    quickly.  I wish Icould say the same for Jason, who's spent a
    significant portion of his life on his way to, in or on his way from,
    timeouts.  (-:
    
    .... and when all else fails, tell him there's monsters in his closet,
    and if he doesn't behave you'll let them out!  (-:  hahaha (that's a
    JOKE!)