Conference moira::parenting

    The age of the average onset of menstruation for a young woman in
    this society has gone from about 15.5 around WWII to just over 11
    in the mid-1980's.  Which means it's about a month earlier every
    year.  
    
    Improved nutrition, high-fat diets, and growth hormone residues in
    the food have all been variously blamed.  
    
    --bonnie

    Regarding .1:  Many people from other cultures are now part of
    our society, too.  (Not that they weren't before World War II,
    but I think statistical reporting techniques have improved so
    that all people are a little better represented.  Just MHO, no
    basis in fact.)  Anyway, women of African and Mediterranean
    heritage tend to reach menarche (onset of menstruation) a little
    earlier than women from, say, northern Europe.  I do not know why this
    is.  The age 11 that Bonnie mentioned is an *average,* remember, so
    some girls will begin earlier, some later.  In any case, a girl who
    doesn't menstruate by age 15 or 16 should certainly be seen by a
    doctor in case there is a medical/biological cause.
    
    Regarding social/emotional maturity.  I believe that some parents
    see the outward signs of puberty or the first blossomings of interest
    in the opposite sex and think that's it, my kid is grown-up.  I don't
    want to tar all parents with this brush.  But I know myself that I've
    been in this circumstance, seeing a young person who appeared to be
    mature, only to realize after conversing with her/him for a few minutes
    that *this person is only a kid.*  
    
    Socially, many kids have been exposed from an early age to day care,
    dance classes, adults besides their parents, and other enrichment
    programs, so that they conduct themselves very nicely in social
    settings.  My own 4.5-year-old is a very sociable kid who behaves
    nicely about 99.95% of the time; I think my 15-month-old daughter will
    follow in his footsteps.  (Hope so, anyway)  And kids aren't quite as
    sex-segregated as we were when we were growing up, Tom (I'm in my
    late 30s; I guess you are about the same age).  I mean, girls get right
    in there and play sports with boys; boys baby-sit just like their
    sisters and girl cousins; and (fortunately) a lot of kids have dear
    friends of the opposite sex.  I always did.  Unfortuantely, a lot of
    parents see this and make the mistake of thinking that a 10- or
    11-year-old kid is ready for one-on-one interaction with the opposite
    sex.  
    
    The way I see it, there are lots of issues here:
    
    1)  Some parents' reluctance to provide leadership for their kids.
    	It's easy to say yes; "no" automatically puts you in the wrong.
    	But kids are *dying* for us to give them clear guidelines!  They
    	know they don't know.
    
    2)  I have seen parents of older kids behave as if, "You leave me alone
    	and I'll leave you alone."  In other words, in some cases you find
    	parents and kids who live like roommates.  The parents live their
    	life, the kids live theirs.  
    
    3)  Don't overlook the influence of the media.  Just because you are
    	strict about TV (for example) doesn't mean that the parents of
    	your kids' friends are as strict.  Same goes for rock music,
    	movies, etc., etc.  I was pretty surprised to hear my nieces
    	talking about an R-rated movie they'd seen.  They're 15 and 13.
    	How the hell did they get in to the theater?
    
    4)  The overall social fabric is tearing.  In the 1970s, a lot of
    	schools said to parents, "Leave us alone.  We're the professional
    	educators and we know what's best."  With rising economic
    	pressures (inflation, college costs, real estate costs, etc.)
    	meaning that a second income became a neccessity, a lot of
    	beleagured parents were only too glad to comply.  Now the schools
    	are saying, we need your help, and parents are saying, "Why?"
    
    5)  There's just so much going on out there that I feel a lot of
    parents feel really inadequate to the challenge of raising children.
    	Taking myself as an example, my nearest blood relative is an
    	aunt who lives 40 miles away from me.  All I've got is in-laws
    	neighbors, friends -- and all my dear PARENTING noters!  Thank
    	God I've got all of you.  Some people don't have event that for
    	 support system.  And it seems like every day you hear something
    	else that makes you doubt your competency as a parent.  Remember
    	the Jeffrey Dahmer serial killings?  When he was tried, the
    	defense stated that he had been made that way "because his parents
    	didn't spend enough time with him."  Now I work full-time, have
    	a long commute, and I'm lucky to see my kids 3 hours a day.  Don't
    	you think THAT made me feel like Mother of the Year!!!
    
    So in conclusion, I think this is the hardest time to raise a family 
    since the Great Depression.  Older folks may disagree, but I stand
    by my statement.  It isn't just you, Tom; a lot of us feel that the
    world is in too much of a hurry.  Yet many of us feel pretty powerless
    to stop it.

    Well I don't know about about the onset of menstruation coming earlier
    every year...but in 1969, I was 9 and started mine.  I needed to
    shave by the time I was 7-8.  I never knew about it until it
    happened and thought I was going to die or something.
    
    I was a major tom boy and had a real hard time with this.  I
    found it very difficult to climb trees with a bra and my mom
    and I had wars trying to get me to wear one.
    
    I do know what you mean.  I feel like I lost out on being a kid
    because I had to worry about 'grown up' things once a month
    so young. Very traumatic...especially the kind of protection back then.
    You had to carry a purse large enough to put the kitchen sink
    in.  Everyone knew 'it was your time'
    
    I don't think that people 'mature' earlier and earlier every year.
    I think you just hear about it more.  In 1969 my mom wouldn't think
    of telling anyone I became a 'woman' at 9 years old.  Many of
    my classmates started by the time they were 10-11.  As a matter of
    fact, one of them had a baby at 13 and had to be 'put away' to
    have the baby because it wasn't accepted.  Just because no one
    ever heard of this stuff happening doesn't mean it wasn't going
    on.
    
    20-30 years ago people were more private about these types of
    things.  Classes in sex education in grammar school were unheard
    of....now they are considered normal.  Could you imagine watching
    an episode of Rozanne when Leave it to Beaver and Father Knows
    Best were on prime time TV?  
    
    I think it is genetic.  My mom started when she was 10 and her mom
    before that started very early.  I have a friend who's daughter is
    17 and still waiting.  My friend was very late as well.  
    
    The good news for those of us who start early....it usually means
    menopause will happen late....it also cannot be connected with
    breast cancer.
      
    Just another opinion.....
    Kristen
    
    

    My baby is 4 months old and from the beginning, right after being born,
    he had more head control than one would expect.  People kept saying
    that babies born these days have more head control than before.  Maybe
    this is in line with the subject of this note.  
    
    Has anyone heard this same thing?  Is there proof?  Maybe we are just
    imagining all of it because of the pace of our society.  We see what we
    are trained to see. 

After comparing my children with their cousins of the same age, I think we 
tend to confuse precociousness with maturity often.  My boys don't have any
where near the exposure to television that their American cousins do.  They
also have a much more relaxed attitute to sex and nudity than their American 
cousins.  

Their cousins seem to be able to converse on a wider range of subjects than
my boys.  My boys seemed to accept authority more and not to expect to be
treated as equals in adult conversations as their peers did.  My boys did,
however, have a better understanding of geography and world affairs.

Physically, I don't see any big difference with some maturing earlier and
some maturing later but then my sample is rather small.  Dirk started growing
hair and his voice started changing at around 10-11.  Markus is almost 12 and
still has shown no signs of changing.

My family seemed to find it strange that my boys (12 and 14) still had a
fixed bedtime and asked if they could have food or drink.

I've also noticed in my extended family that European children tend to live
at home longer and be dependent on their parents longer than American children.
My cousin in Vienna was still living at home until he married at 34.  He still
asked his parents when considering major purchases.  Vienna is very old
fashioned.

In this area it would probably be considered very normal to be dependent on
your parents until well into your twenties.  In Germany, even longer since
you have to wait a year or two for a place in the University.

So, I guess my take is that physically I don't notice any earlier maturity in
today's youth.  As far as my boys are concerned, I think their social and
mental maturity correspond to what I remember and what I would expect for
their age.

Cheryl

    RE .4
    
    My 2 boys were able to lift their heads in the delivery room, far in
    advance of what the books tell you is possible.  They were both big
    babies (9lbs 8oz & 9lbs 1oz) and seemed quite strong from birth.  
    When my first was born, the nurse put him in my husband's arms and 
    said, "Here, bond."  My husband started to talk to the baby, and
    the baby (who was eventually named Jesse) lifted his head and looked
    his Dad straight in the eye.  I have a photo of him at 10 days, lying
    on his tummy getting a sponge bath, with his head raised up to look
    at the camera.
    
    I thought at that time that I had a superbaby, since he was so
    advanced (compared to the literature).  But his brother is the
    same way, and other parents tell me similar stories.  What I
    don't know is whether previous generations of infants were even
    more helpless.
    
    They're too young yet for me to know if their adolescences will
    be early, but I reached menarche at 16 in 1976. Late bloomer!

>   In this area it would probably be considered very normal to be
>   dependent on your parents until well into your twenties.  In Germany,
>   even longer since you have to wait a year or two for a place in the
>   University.

   Interesting... actually, that's happening more and more around here,
   but not because of tradition or society being "old fashioned".  From
   what I've seen, its more a matter of economics for some people -
   having trouble finding jobs, or getting one that pays enough to move
   out, etc.  (I know, I know, for some people its a matter of their
   parents letting them be lazy or undisciplined with money, but that's
   not true for everybody..)
   
   - Tom
   

    Regarding .7, is it so awful for a young person to live with her/
    his parents until s/he is married?  Let's assume that all adults
    involved work to communicate openly, there is mutual respect, 
    house rules are discussed and observed, etc., etc.  While there is
    a lot to be said for living on your own -- I had a TERRIFIC time
    when I lived on my own -- I don't think it is necessarily bad for
    a young adult to live at home till marriage.  AGain, everyone 
    involved has to work really hard at the relationships, and the
    young people have to bear some responsibility.
    
    I think the economy is forcing a lot of things on people.  Choices
    are becoming narrower and narrower in some sense.  I see a lot of
    kids thinking about careers where they can "make money," to the
    point where they don't even consider their own interests, passions,
    etc.  I did it myself.  I seriously considered an acting career,
    but I knew I would encounter the hassle of a lifetime from the
    parents, and I didn't think I had the stomach for the endless
    auditions, rejections, etc., etc.  So I became a writer instead,
    and now I get plenty of rejections and only a little more money
    than I would have earned if I'd decided to thumb my nose at the
    family and do something that I (at the time) really wanted to do.