Conference moira::parenting

	Ellen,

          I had a similiar problem with reoccurring ear infections in
        my daughter which started when she was around 2 months and we
        finally had tubes when she was about 8 months.  After that she
        did great, gained weight and every one was happy.  Her tubes 
        finally fell out when she was around 2 years old or a little before
        that.  We never had them put back in because she has only had
        2 mild infections since then (she's now 2.5).  I do know that when
        she had her tubes put in the doctor told us that her adnoids where
        huge and that they may give us trouble in the future, but he said
        at the time that he would never consider taking them out until
        the child is over 2.

          My sister had the same problem with ear infections in her boy when 
        he was around 2 years old.  He had is adnoids removed when they put 
        the tubes in and he never had any problems after that.

          My biggest question for you is why did you put the tubes back in.
        Did the ear infections come back?  Or was the doctor using it is
        a safety measure.  I don't know the medical history of your child,
        but I would question the need to put the tubes back in without
        giving the ears a chance to readjust to no tubes.  It also worries
        me when you say that your child is having difficulty with the 
        second tubes.  Maybe that's an indication that they aren't working
        anymore and you should try something else like removing the adnoids.

	  My best advice is to go with you gut feeling.  If you're not 
        comfortable with having your childs adnoids removed then seek a
        second or third opinion.  You know whats best for your child and
        if your not comfortable with the situation its because somethings
        not right.  Make sure you get all the answers before you do anything.


	Lisa
 

    
    	Matt has had a constant ear infection since the last insert of
    	his tubes in December.  His ENT suggested that his body didn't
    	take to this set, that's why one fell out.  He still has
    	a tremendous about of fluid built up in one ear, hence the need
    	for the third set.  He's sleeping horribly at night...so it looks
    	like this is the only route to go.  My ENT also mentioned that
    	he's one of his worst cases (makes me feel good).  That at this
    	point, when there not doing well with the tubes, they usually
    	decide to do the adnoids as well...
    
    	Thanks for the response!

	Well good luck and I hope your little one is feeling better soon.
     There is nothing worse than having a sick child.  I hope the third
     time works better then the second.

	Lisa

Dirk had constant ear infections until he was four years old.  That winter he
had fifteen of them.  The pediatrician and the ear-nose-throat specialist
decided that his adenoids should be removed.  He never had tubes.

It was a day surgery.  I took him in in the morning.  We stayed until he was
sedated (there were about four children in the ward for the same thing).  We
went back in the early afternoon as he was coming out of the anesthetic.  I
had brought an indian headdress for him but he wasn't terribly interrested
at the time, he just wanted to sleep.  We left him for about four hours and
then we could take him home.  He was rather groggy the next day and after that
was back to normal but without the ear infections.

Following the operation, we then only got one or two infections a year, 
sometimes none.  There were no other significant changes (voice, etc.).

If they remove tonsils, that is a much more serious thing and they keep the
children at least overnight because of the possibility of hemorrhaging.

Cheryl

    
    Can someone tell me the purpose and location of the adenoids?  Why does
    removing the adenoids stop ear infections?
    
    My daughter has been on antibiotics since last Oct. for chronic ear
    infections.  They are waiting one more month before they go the tubes
    route...hopefully her ears will clear up by then!!
    
    Carol

Adenoids are growths in the area up behind the nose throat.  They are made of 
lymphatic tissue and act as a filter.  In some individuals the adenoids
become enlarged, sometimes sufficiently to block the nasal passages but, 
presumably if it has gone this far the doctor has already recommended 
removal :-)

The reason they are related to ear infections is for the same reason that
the specialist is called an ear-nose-and-throat doctor.  The entire ear/nose/
throat system is very well connected and allows easy passage of bacteria 
throughout the upper respiratory system.  When the adenoids become enlarged,
fluids build up in the nasal passages and act as cultures for the bacteria
which can infect the ears.

Removing them allows the fluids to drain and the system to clear itself more
easily.  Similarly with the tubes, it just provides another way to drain off
fluids so the bacteria don't have the cultures in which to grow.

ccb

    
    	Cheryl,
    
    	Thanks so much for that wonderful explanation.....My ENT really
    	never explained it so thoroughly...it makes sense.  My husband
    	will enjoy reading it....he's as paranoid as I am.  I just spoke
    	to my sons pediatrician.  He also recommended taking the adnoids
    	out...so it looks like thats the route we'll go.  I just pray that
    	it helps the infections!!!  I think the hard part of it all is
    	seeing them go through it...Matt had a real hard time coming
    	out of the anesthesia last time. He was thrashing and crying
    	for a half hours time.  He's getting it done at the Worcester Surgical
    	Center...there wonderful.  I had him in my arms when he was just
    	coming out.  
    
    	Please keep sharing your experiences with me!  
    
    	Ellen

    
    Hi Ellen.  I wrote about this in Parenting II.  I have 3 little boys
    and the 2 older ones have had their adenoids removed.  My oldest son
    has also had his tonsils removed (he is 6).  I've had one good and one
    bad experience.  In both cases their voices never changed.  In both
    cases it was because they had chronic ear infections and multiple tube
    surgeries with little relieve from the infections.  In both cases the
    adenoid tissue was extremely swollen and blocking the base of the
    nasal passages and exacerbating the ear infections.  In my oldest boy's
    surgery they kept him overnight because that was the procedure in 1988.
    (We had it done at Mass Eye and Ear Infirmary in Boston).  His recovery
    time was nil.  In my 2nd son's case he bled and wouldn't clot (much to
    my alarm).  They had to do surgery again and cauterize him.  They kept
    him overnight because of the complications but he was fine and chipper
    within a few hours.
    
    I know what you're going through.  It's no fun with them sick and 
    putting them through surgery is unnerving and scary.  But the end
    result is terrific.  Neither child has had ear infections since the
    adenoid surgery.  The subsequent tonsil surgery was for chronic
    tonsillitis and strep throat (sigh...out of the frying pan into the
    fire...).
    
    Good luck,
    
    Dorothy

    At age 5, my older son, Zachary, had his adenoids and tonsils removed
    when he had his second set of tubes put in.  The reason they both needed to
    be removed was because they were so large and once the first set of tubes
    fell out he had reoccurring  ear infections plus had 2 cases of strep
    throat inseason.  His ENT suggested the removal of the adenoids and tonsils
    because he felt that (in his case) he would have reoccurring problems.
    
    
    The recovery period was longer than when he only had the tubes put in.
    His surgery was around 9:30am  and we didn't leave the hospital until
    5pm.  He slept most of the time.  The next day he was alittle groggy/tired,
    and by day 3 he was himself.  
    
    It's been 2 years since his surgery and I was/am pleased with the
    outcome.  Since then Zachary has NOT been on any antibiotics (a major
    event for him); he has had only minor colds which were treated with over the
    counter cough medicine.  He also no longer snores.
                                                         
    I can relate to your anxiety and sympathize.  As a previous noter suggested,
    get a second opinion and/or a third until you feel confident with the
    decision you make.
             
    Good luck.
    Nancy
    

    
    
    	My son, Nicholas, has been having speech/hearing problems, due to
    fluid buildup behind his eardrums due to infection,  since early
    last September. We went the try_another_antibiotic route with his
    pediatrician, who finally gave up and sent us to an ENT a couple months
    ago. The ENT said his ears would need tubes and his adenoids would need
    to be removed. 
    
    	I said no and began looking for alternatives. Without surgery or
    tubes, Nicholas can now hear again. We have been using a combination of
    homeopathy/vitamins/diet/allergy/decongestants, etc. It's slow but it's
    working.
    
    
    
    	Craig
    
    
    	

    My 3.5 yr old son had chronic strep throat, fluid in the ears, croup
    and ear infections all winter.(1991-2)  Family history supported tubes,
    tonsil and andoid removal.  My ENT specialist recommended T&A removal
    but not tubes.  In my son's case, it was the opinion of the ENT that by
    removing the enlarged tonsils and andnoids, it would allow the ears to
    drain.  The surgery was day surgery.  In at 8am - home by 4pm.  An
    overnight stay is no longer the "norm" and insurance companies will not
    pay for it unless there are complications.  My son was very upset,
    uncontrollable crying and vomiting most of the day of the surgery. 
    After a good nights sleep he asked for cookies the next morning!  I am
    SOOOOOOO glad the surgery was done.  He actually eats a meal instead of
    holding it in his mouth.  (it hurt too much to swallow!)  He has gained
    weight, sleeps at night without snoring AND no ear infections.  Oh and
    his voice did change.  No more nasal sound.
    
    Just my 2 cents....

    Ellen,
    
    My daughter Abbey suffered from ear infections since she was about 6
    months old.  She was on antibiotics all the time - in fact, she was on
    Pediazole for a two year period from age 3 to 5.
    
    While attending Preschool, her teachers noticed a definite decrease in
    her hearing ability - not in a one-on-one situation, but in group play
    environments.
    
    We went immediatlly to our Pedi who said it was time for definite
    hearing retyesting.  Could not believe the results - 50% loss of
    hearing in one ear with a 20% loss in the other.
    
    Went to an ENT who recommended tubes plus adenoid removal.  Went for
    our second opinion per John Hancock and was told to have both tubes,
    adenoids and tonsils out.  Thank God we didn't take the second ENT's
    advise!
    
    Before the surgery, routine blood tests showed borderline clotting
    ability in Abbey's blood.  The ENT said lets go for the tubes, and
    assess the adenoids during the procedure.  Then we'll either go for it
    or not.
    
    Well, the tube insertion was a breeze, but the adenoid removal resulted
    in major hemorraging - again, this was due to Abbey's blood clotting
    ability, not the adenoid removal itself.  She came out of her first
    surgery at about 9:30 a.m. and went in for a second surgery at about
    1:30 - she was hemmorging from her nasal area.  The second surgery was
    successful in stopping the bleeding - she was hospitalized overnight
    for observation.
    
    I, of course, was a wreck, but she came out of it great!  
    
    One side note, is that the ENT took Abbey off Pediazole as it was a
    sulfer based antibiotic which attributed to her temporary
    clotting problem.  Because she was on it for two years, her blood
    did react in that manner.
    
    I was very glad we did not opt for the tonsilectomy.  My ENT (The 1st
    opinion) said no due to the bloodwork reports - he was right!!!
    
    Abbey is now 7.  Its been two years since her surgery and I'm happy to 
    say that she has had maybe two ear infections in that time period.  Her
    hearing also came back - 98% in one ear with 100% in the other.
    
    My only note of concern is to be aware of the pre-op bloodwork reports.
    
    Judy
     

We had Michael's adenoids removed, and tubes put in this past February.  He 
had had one ear infection after another, and the last one wouldn't clear up 
even after we tried four different antibiotics.  In fact, he was taking an 
antibiotic when he GOT the infection!  In addition, he tested with some 
hearing loss in one ear.

They came and got him about 8:00am, and took him to surgery.  Fifteen 
minutes later, the surgery was completed and the surgeon had finished 
briefing us!  No kidding!

Recovery was more difficult than tubes alone, but all in all we're very
glad we did it!  Michael was in some discomfort, but not too bad, for a few
hours ... mainly he was just terrified.  The recovery problem was not pain,
but swelling.  His nose was almost completely stopped up for almost two
weeks, making it nigh onto impossible for him to sleep at night.  We ran a
vaporizer and gave him a prescribed decongestant, and still were up with
him about every two hours all night every night for two full weeks.  That
part of it was awful! 

The good news is that he has not had a single ear infection since the 
surgery.  He even had strep throat about a month ago, but no accompanying 
ear infection.  He's like a different child -- able to hear and not in pain 
for the first time in a long time.  We've discussed it, and Pat and I both 
feel that the surgery was absolutely the right thing to do for Michael.

Steve

We had my daughter Julie's adenoids out last November.  Her doctor
did an x-ray to find that the adenoids were totally blocking her
nasal passage.  Didn't everyone else have x-rays?  He also did the
blood test for clotting.  He insisted that she stay overnight.  It was
his standard procedure.  Julie was fine by noon.  It took a couple of
hours more for her to recover than from the tubes.  I sleep overnight
in the hospital with her and I will say that she thoughly enjoyed the
entire experience.  She got to report about it at school and tried out
every movable object and toy in the hospital!  She was 4 1/2 at the time.

Jill Diewald

    My neice is 5 yrs old and had her tonsils and adnoids removed the same
    time.  Family history with ears is really bad (5 of 7 have no tonsils
    or adnoids and still have recurring ear infections as adults) her
    breathing improved greatly especially at night when she would sometimes
    choke because she couldn't breathe.  But is seems that now it is
    getting bad again.  She doesn't complain about her ears anymore but
    can't hear or breath well.  They can't aford a Dr. to tell them she's
    fine. do they grow back or something?  Any advice out there?!?

    Tonsils and adenoids don't generally grow back.  What you seem to be
    describing sounds like the need for ear tubes.  Fluid in the eustatian
    tubes, might even be excess mucous caused by pollen allergies can cause 
    the symptoms you describe.  Obviously I'm no doctor but is sounds like
    it ought to be checked by a pro.
    
    What do you mean there's no money for a doctor?  First if the T&A was
    recently done there should be some provisions for one or more
    post-operative check up.  Even if this isn't the case most doctors will
    adjust for "professional courtesy" treatments if the money isn't there. 
    Isn't there some kind of insurance?  If nothing else most cities and
    major teching hospitals have free clinics for kids who need treatment
    but are unable to pay.  In this day and age, there is no reason for a
    child to want for medical care.  
    
    Lyn

    Tonsils and adenoids can both grow back if they weren't completely
    removed.    
    
    If that's what happened, the doctor should cover it
    himself/herself, for not doing it right the first time. 
    
    Though I'd be more inclined to suspect allergies.  Right now I
    can't hear well or breathe either thanks to the wonderful
    pine-pollen season. 
    
    --bonnie

    
    Time to turn to parenting conference.

    My son had on-and-off ear infections for over a year (4.5 years old).
    I took him to the round of specialists (ENT and allergist) last fall
    and they found nothing wrong with him.  He had an allergy test and came
    out negative.  He had a blood work done to test for low immunity and it
    came out fine.  The doctors thought he'll outgrow it himself.
    When the weather gets better, most kids do better.

    Well, since then he has 5-6 ear infections and after 3 recurring
    ones, we are back to ENT's office again.   When he's on antibiotic,
    he's fine, but as soon as he's off there he goes again.

    The doctor now recommends (so as his pedi.) to have ear tubes put in,
    plus T&A (tonsils and adenoids removed).  My son never had throat
    problems before, so I was really surprised to hear about tonsillectomy.
    His nasal passage is almost always blocked, and I do think adenoids 
    may need to be removed, and may be tubes. The doctors say he does have
    slightly larger tonsils.

    My inclination is, if nothing is wrong with it, don't remove it. 
    However, there is another school of thoughts that if he is going under
    surgery, we may as well take care of everything possibly necessary.
    It'll save him from going under the knife twice, if he has tonsil
    problems later on.

    What do other parents think????

    I think I'd go for the second surgical opinion before going through
    with the surgery....

    Thanks for letting me mumble....
    Masami

    Masami,
    
    I can only give you my own history.   Aprox. 29 years ago, I was deaf
    in one ear, the doctors decided to take out my tonsils and adenoids
    to see would that help.   Well it solved my problem.    
    
    I do not know if the above is of any help to you.   With medical
    advances, they may have other treatements available now, check out
    all your options.
    
    
    
    Bernie
    

    I can only offer my experience with my son.  He had one set of tubes
    for two years, he still had a few infections.  We had them surgically
    removed at 2years+, and within two weeks we had a 90% hearing loss, an
    ear infection that drove all of us crazy, plus he was infecting the
    whole house, we were all on antibiotics for strep throat, cold and ear
    infections.
    
    My understanding is that if there is a strep throat history then
    tonsils ought to be looked at, in the sense of removal.  Has your son
    had strep?  How old is he?
    
    The other "sanity check" with the tonsils is the second surgical
    opinion.  Or even a third.  If you've go two independant doctors who
    say tonsils, then I'd say they have enough medical background to know
    what is right.  The insurance companies today won't pay for unnecessary
    surgery, they are out to save themselves money!
    
    I too am of the belief that if he's going to be under anesthesia, and
    doing adenoids with the tubes, then go for the tonsils.  Our ENT said
    of the two removal of the adenoids carries the greater risk, because
    they can't actually be seen, they have to use a special mirror to see
    the adenoid for removal.  The tonsils are "right there" and easy to
    take out.
    
    Does this help or confuse?
    Lyn

    My own experience...
    
    I had bronchitis/pnemonia on and off for the first 5 years
    of my life.  They removed my tonsils at 5 years old and I
    haven't had a problem since!
    
    FWIW,
    

    From what I understand, the tonsils can go from being an effective
    germ eliminator, to a massive germ collector. In that case its time
    for them to go.
    My brother had his adnoids removed at an early age because of countless
    sinus problems. Alas, in his 20's he had to have the tonsils removed
    afterall since they were swollen for a long time.
    I agree with the noter who said that you should get enough medical 
    opinions to make your decision, and that having everything done at
    once minimizes physical and emotional trauma.
    
    Monica
    (Whose tonsils "hit the road" at age 11, after a YEAR of tonsil
    infection)

    I had my son's tonsils and adenoids removed at age 3.5.  He had 
    constant ear infections and tonsilitis.  I had rushed him to the 
    hospital to many times with double ear infections and tonsilitis only 
    to be given an antibiotic and the encouragement that he would outgrow it.
    It got to the point he was infection free only on the antibiotics and
    as soon as he finished a 10 day routine on amoxycillin he'd be sick
    again.  After seeing two specialist and having Matt test for hemophilia 
    we decided to have the surgery.  
    
    He is 11.5 and has had one cold and one ear infection just this past 
    spring.  Not to mention he no longer snores;-)  I was not thrilled with
    having him operated on at that age. However, having him dependent on
    antibotics wasn't a choice either.
    
    It is a fairly simple procedure, with an overnight hospital stay.
    I slept in the room with him and he was home within 24 hours.
    The hospital staff and surgeon were excellent and made an
    unpleasant experience tolerable.
    
    Good Luck.
         

My 2.5 yr. old just had tubes put in. I agree with Lyn...get a second
opinion, maybe even a third. Tubes can be effective without removing the
tonsils and adnoids.

Chris

    Tonsil and Adenoid surgery is now considered Day surgery and the child
    goes home (barring complications).  My 7.5 year old son just had his
    tonsils and adenoids out in the beginning of July.  Both were so large
    that the surgeon had to "alter his technique" because he couldn't get
    all the instruments in to get the things out.  We went to the hospital
    at 7:30 AM and returned home at 8:00 PM.  Ryan was quite sick for about
    5-6 days after surgery but is now (3 weeks later) completely back to
    normal.  His voice has changed a little bit and he no longer SNORES!
    
    After what Ryan went through, I'm glad both the tonsils and adenoids
    were removed - I'll NEVER get him to go back for more surgery!
    
    Linda

    Just FYI, so you won't be taken by surprise like we were.  The T&A and
    tubes operation is now considered "day surgery" by most insurance
    companies.  We were there at 6:30 a.m., he was done around 8, and we
    were not hurried to leave, in fact we didn't leave until nearly 9p.m.
    
    If your child doesn't come out of the anesthesia, or is extremely sick
    the insurance company will pay for "overnight observation", but
    everyone we talked to said almost all the kiddos come home sometime
    late, after supper time.  His was done in March '92.
    
    His tubes last spring was in by 7:00 and we were home by 1:00.  He was
    up raring to go almost immediately after coming from the operating
    room!
    
    They are very careful with preop testing for tonsils, to be sure the
    blood clotting factor is good.  Tonsils can create post op bleeding
    problems, but in most cases there isn't a problem.
    
    Lyn

    Maybe I am just missing it, BUT.. I did a DIR on Tonsils, and came up
    with nothing.  Please move this if need be! Thanks!!

    Sarah, my 18 year old, just had her tonsils removed yesterday.  It's
    just been 24 hours since the surgery, but she is still in horrible
    pain.  She can barely eat anything, pudding just kind of slides down,
    but it burns, she says.  Popsicles are almost useless, they hurt too
    much.  She still has the ice pack on her throat, it does seem to help
    somewhat.  She is trying not to take the liquid tylonal with codeine,
    too often, but when it gets to bad she does take it.  

    I had my tonsils removed when I was 4, so don't remember too much about
    it.  I know she will be in pain for several days, but shouldn't she be
    better today then yesterday?  She says it hurts more.  I am home with
    her, but really must get back to the office to pack up my stuff (I am
    suppose to be TFSOed next week, if the approval came through).  I hate
    to leave her.  Can I assume she will be better tomorrow, or should I
    plan on taking another day?  

    I have never felt so helpless in my life, even 2 years ago when we had
    her in the hospital for depression, and the meds they gave her pushed
    her over the edge (she became suicidal).  Yesterday, as she laid
    crying that she wanted to come home, knowing that she was really out of
    it, but still hurting... I just felt like crying myself.  I left my
    husband holding her hand, at one point, because I thought I would break
    down right there.  She didn't need that!!!!

    Have any other parents had to have their kids tonsils out at an older
    age?  Or you yourself have to have them out at an older age?  What
    exactly can we expect?  Sarah's thresh hold for pain is very low, as is
    mine.  I just feel so sorry for her.

    Thanks for listening.

    M-L

>    I had my tonsils removed when I was 4, so don't remember too much about
>    it. 

. . .

>    Have any other parents had to have their kids tonsils out at an older
>    age?  Or you yourself have to have them out at an older age?  What
>    exactly can we expect?  Sarah's thresh hold for pain is very low, as is
>    mine.  I just feel so sorry for her.

I have no personal knowledge of tonsillectomies in older children/adults, but 
I have many friends who have, and the almost universal response was that 
there is no comparison with tonsillectomies in younger children.  I had mine 
out when I was very young, and I actually remember it as a pleasant 
experience.  I remember no pain whatsoever, but I remember getting to eat ice 
cream for every meal.

Every instance I've heard of in which tonsillectomies are performed on older 
children has been described like your daughter's; a lot of pain and a long 
recovery period.  While her threshhold of pain may affect how MUCH it hurts, 
it probably doesn't affect WHETHER it hurts.

Sorry I can't be of more help.

Clay

    My sister had her tonsils out when she was older (early teens).  She was 
    looking forward to ice cream/popsicles and the like.  I remember how
    devastated she was because she could BELIEVE that it could hurt to just
    swallow ice cream.  She didn't eat ANYTHING for 2 days because it hurt
    SOOOOOO much.  And she has a very high tolerance for pain.  I
    distinctly remember that the first 2 days were sheer misery for her,
    and I think that part of the problem may have been that she was NOT at
    all prepared for it hurting that much.  About the 3rd day it started to
    feel better, and it took about 5 days before it was only hurting about
    as much as she thought it would.  
    
    BUT .... that doesn't mean I wouldn't call the Dr!!!  I had my wisdom
    teeth pulled when I was 18 and I remember how much it hurt.  And how
    much more it hurt the 2nd day.  And the 3rd.  I had it done the Wed.
    before Thanksgiving so I'd have to miss less time from work.  By
    Saturday I wanted to just kill someone it hurt so much, and even
    though I felt like I was being a wimp about it, I dragged myself back
    to the dentist.  Only to find out that a stitch had torn, and one of
    the "sockets" from the missing tooth was badly infected.  They told me
    that it should never hurt "sharply" any more.  To expect a soreness or
    throbbing to increase perhaps the day after, but any type of "sharper"
    pain is probably a problem.  
    
    The best sign at this point is probably a fever.  If things are ok, she
    shouldn't have a fever.  If something else is going on, she probably
    has a low grade fever.  Call just to be sure ...!
    
    

    	When I've had surgery (and I've had far too many operations, my
    first at age 18) someone once told me and I've always kept in mind the
    following.

    	The first day following surgery is the worst.
    	The second day following surgery is better and invariably you do too
    	much meaning that....
        The third day following surgery is the worst.

    	From the fourth day on though it is always much easier.

    	I have literally had many turning points at the end of the third
    day. During one operation in particular where I received a transplant,
    I was in so much pain and in such bad shape that I could not sleep
    until the third day following surgery. When I awoke following a two
    hour nap and had realized that I had overslept the time for my next
    pain killer by 1.5 hours, I knew that I was going to make it.

    	Surgery, to put it plainly, sucks and it's scary and it hurts.

    	The only thing good about it is that you eventually recover from
    it.

    					Wendy
    	

    My son had his tonsils/adenoids out this past summer when he was 7.5
    yrs. old.  He had a MISERABLE time.  He was in terrible pain for 5
    days.  This was complicated by the fact that the Tylenol/Codiene
    medicine made him throw up (which made him hurt more).  The dr. almost
    had us bring him back to the hosp. but he SLOWLY stated getting better
    around the 4th day.  By the 5th day he was pretty much back to normal
    and eating soft foods.
    
    My nephew had his tonsils/adenoids out when he was 21.  Her pretty much
    went through the same timeframes as my son. 
    
    So, I wouldn't worry about your daughter (but call the Dr. anyway) but
    plan on a very trying week!
    
    Linda

    Thanks for all the note, here and off line.  I am at work today, but
    Sarah and I have worked out a phone code, if she needs me.  She is
    still having a really hard time talking, she sounds like she has
    marbles in her throat... and cotton in her mouth.  She said it wasn't
    as bad today.  I finally talked her into brushing her teeth yesterday,
    she has been afraid to... and she said that helped a lot.  Not with the
    pain, but with just not feeling as yucky.  I heard her at 3:00 this
    morning.. brushing her teeth.  She said it has helped.  She finally eat
    a scrambled egg yesterday, and some pudding.  She tried applesauce, but
    said it hurt (probably the acid in it).  Funny thing, she can't eat
    popsicles, she said the cold hurts too much.  
    
    If the weather is a lousy tomorrow as it says, I will probably take
    tomorrow as another sick day... hopefully she will be better and I can
    gt her to eat something.  She is 5'5", and normally only weighs 105, so
    she really can't afford to lose too much weight.
    
    Thanks again,
    
    M-L

Justin, now 18 months, has continued to have problems.  He had constant
ear infections since September.  He throws up an average of once every 
few days.  He still doesn't gain weight well (weighs about 19 pounds).
He doesn't have much of an appetite.  He has ear tubes, which are sometimes
clogged (but not currently).

We saw the Ear Nose and Throat doctor a few weeks ago and he said there were
3 possibilities to help with the ear infections:
	1. allergies
	2. surgery to take out adenoids
	3. something else (can't remember what)

We had just found out that Justin was allergic to something.  Out of a normal
range of 0-12, he scored a 37.  We took him off milk products.  Immediately
he didn't have any ear infections.  That was 2-3 weeks ago.

Now he has a double ear infection.  We found out his daycare hasn't been
giving him dairy products, but they *have* been giving him food which was
made with milk!  I'm wondering if the ear infections may have restarted because
of that.

Our pediatrician and ENT both want to do the surgery, even though the ENT
says he doesn't know that the adenoids are a problem, and that he didn't
know if the adenoids were too large or not (I believe he said they did not
look particularly large).

I'm waiting on a call back from the doctor right now, but am concerned.  
Why should we subject Justin to yet another surgery if we don't even know
if it will help?  I know doctors talk about scarring of the ear drum.
Can he be permanently deaf or significantly hard of hearing because of this?
Is there a better way than surgery?

      frustrated Carol

    Carol, first things first.  Sending you hugs and as much support as I
    can.
    
    IMO, I'd  take a long, hard look at his overall health.  He really has
    had his share. Before making a surgical decision.  Didn't he have some
    cardiac problems, are the under control?  That would play a major part
    in decision making.  
    
    From where we are coming from, I too was faced with a similar decsion
    but probably  he was a little older, may 3+.  I too toyed with tubes,
    T&A surgery etc.  We spent a whole year on low dose anitbiotics, and
    still had infections pushing through despite the medication.  Finally
    with a noticeable hearing loss we decided enough is enough and opted
    for the first set of tubes.  Again it was another winter of infections
    both with and without full and low dose antibiotics, and more hearing
    loss, and finally decided it was time for the T&A.
    
    Would I do it again? YES only this time I wouldn't wait so long.  He's
    been through so much so far, in perspective this T&A would be a
    cakewalk!
    
    Hugs to all of you, and especially Justin.
    Lyn

    I'm looking for more stories/advice on the removal of the adenoids.
    
    My son is now two.  After 6 months of constant ear infections, we had
    the tubes inserted when he was 1 year old.  Everything was great for a
    year, at which point the tubes fell out.  Since then (2 months), one
    ear has
    been constantly infected.  Also, he is breaking out in hives from the
    antibiotics.  Needless to say, we have decided to have another set of
    tubes inserted.  When my husband took him for the consultation with
    the surgeon, the surgeon said that he would remove Jon's adenoids at
    the same time because "studies show that the adenoidectomy helps in
    cases of cronic ear infections".  Thus, he recommends always removing
    the adenoids for any child receiving their second set of tubes.
    
    I am a nervous wreck about this.  We are going to get a second opinion.
    In the meantime, I am wondering if anyone in a similar situation has
    decided not to remove the adenoids.  Also, if anyone's doctor did a
    more complete diagnosis (an MRI, for example?) before recommending 
    the procedure.
    
    I'd welcome any advice/support from the parenting community,
    Deb

    Deb
    
    we just had the 2nd set of tubes put into Nicholas's ears in June, he
    had his 1st set in November.
    
    His ENT never suggested anything about his adenoids being removed.
    
    I do remember as a kid, though, haveing my adenoids removed when I had
    my toncils (sp?) out, and my brother had his adenoids out when he had
    his tubes put in... 
    
    If you are concerend, definately get a second opinion! and if you are
    not satisfied w/that, get a 3rd!
    
    Anne Marie

When we were considering getting tubes for my son (still in for now) we asked
the ENT about this option (my husband had this done as a child)  He said
that he never removes adnoids in children that young (he was 15 mths) because
they often grow back.  I'd get the 2nd opinion.

Lori

I can empathize with you, my son is allergic to 2 kinds of antibiotics.  That's
what pushed us toward the tubes.

    RE: .33 -  You mention that exposure to milk could potentially have
    caused some of the infections.  My daughter is allergic to milk
    products and I am amazed at all the foods that have milk protein.
    I was going to give her some tuna fish but Bumble Bee brand has cows
    milk protein in it!!!!  You may want to talk to a Pediatric allergy
    specialist to get another opinion and cut out *all* milk products.
    This will mean reading alot of labels and essentially avoiding most
    breads and processed foods. (BTW - luncheon meats, hot dogs and brown
    sugar are other foods to avoid due to the milk protein). If you could  
    get to the cause of the ear infections that would go along way in 
    prevention.
    nancy

re -1:  But can you get rid of the colds as well?  (they were what seemed to
cause most of my son's infections)

Lori

    How do you identify milk protein in a product?  Does it
    list milk protein on the list of ingredients?  My son is
    allergic to milk protein and has had his share of ear
    infections.  We saw a ENT specialist yesterday and he
    also suggested we cut out all milk products from Christopher's
    diet.  I know whey contains milk protein, but what other
    ingredients should I be looking for?
    
    Many thanks,
    Terry

Kosher symbols will help you determine if there are any milk products at all.
If you see the word "Pareve" or "Parve" on the label, it should contain no
milk products.  If you see "D" next to one of the kosher symbols, it contains
some kind of milk product.  Among the more common kosher symbols are a U with
a circle around it, a K with a circle around it, a K inside a sort of backwards
C, and a K inside a five-pointed star.  Hydrolyzed protein can be a milk
derivative.  Certain brands of tuna contain this, and thus have a U-in-a-circle
with a D next to it.

    Terry,
    
    You might want to ask your Dr. specifically which protiens to avoid.  I
    know Casien is one Lolita had problems with, and it is amazing to see
    how many processed foods use casien.  (some of the buttery crackers,
    for example)
    
    meg

>    How do you identify milk protein in a product?  Does it
>    list milk protein on the list of ingredients?

The Food Allergy Network has a bunch of information on identifying various
allergens in food.  They provide handy reference cards.  I entered contact info
in a topic on food allergies somewhere here.  It's a great organization.

						Brian

    The following are ingredients to avoid for milk protein allergy:
    
    Brown sugar
    Casein
    Caseinates
    High protein flour
    Hydrolysates
    Nogat
    Simplesse
    Milk protein can be found in hot dogs, luncheon meats, non-dairy
    creamers, prepared pastas and soups, most store bought breads, 
    many crackers, cookies and artifical butter flavorings.
    Nancy 
       

I've never seen brown sugar that's not marked pareve.

    I'll repeat what others have said - ask your doctor for a list of milk
    proteins and by-products to avoid.  I had to put myself on a no-milk,
    no-MSG/MSG-look-a-likes diet for about two month to get migraines under
    control, and the list of milk proteins and products that typically
    contain them that my doctor gave me was LONG!!!  The MSG list was
    almost worse, but very educational -- hydrolized animal protein 
    has the same effect as MSG?!!
    
    M.
    

I don't know the difference between milk products and milk proteins
specifically.   However, I do know that we look in the ingredients for
mention of whey.  Whey is a milk product, and is the liquid that you 
see around cottage cheese (remember, "curds and whey"?).  Whey, cassein(ate),
milk itself, and cheese are the milk products we find listed in ingredients
most commonly.

       Carol

    
    A friend of mines daughter needs to have her  adnoids out and tubes put
    in her ears.   She also needs to have her tonsils out but was told that 
    this could wait.   She now doesn't know if she should do the tonsils
    now or later.    Has anyone had any experience with doing both at the
    same time?  Her daughter is six.   
    
    She is worried that the recovery would be more difficult, then again
    she would rather do it all at once.   We don't know of anyone else 
    who's been through it.  

    My daughter had her tonsils and adenoids out last September.  I am
    thrilled that we did it.  She really needed the adenoids out and the
    tonsils could have waited, but based upon family history of severe
    tonsilitis and the fact that she had a growth on one of her tonsils, we
    opted to do both at the same time.  She was 4.
    
    She was uncomfortable for about 4 days, but after that did great.  If
    the tonsils will need to come out, I don't see why you would want to do
    two surgeries, have two recuperation times and expose the child to
    anesthesia for a 2nd time.
    
    My vote is to do it all at once.
    
    /Susan

    I have 2 friends who have same situation as .52. They opted to have
    tonsils and adenoids out and are thrilled with the results. The thoughts 
    of 2 surgeries were terrible to the parents. Both of these girls were so 
    sick so often and have barely been sick since.   

    Another reason for tonsil/adenoid removal is because of sleep apnea.
    Listen to your kids sleeping (PARTICULARLY if they snore), and see if
    you hear them stop breathing.  Usually followed by a chokey/coughy
    sound, and more snoring.  My 3yr old does this, and we're hoping he'll
    outgrow it.  If not, tonsils/adenoids come out when he's a child -
    which is a LOT simpler than as an adult (I'm told).
    
    -Patty