Conference moira::parenting

I think I'd be talking to the organisation "Tough Love" ... there are
chapters all over  the place and should be one in Nashua.   The approach is
that sometimes you must be cruel to be kind but is often successful.  They
hold self-help type meetings for the parents and so on.

Perhaps another noter can give you a local pointer ...

Stuart

    Please see note 227 for information about Tough Love.
    
    L
    co-mod
    

Set mode pontificate = on;

There is a lot in this file about how to deal with babies (rather like the
problems are somehow not "their fault") but we seem to be less brave about
putting in problems dealing with our older children.  My son Markus still wets
his bed at 12 years old (we had one dry WEEK last week, hurrah!).  Jim Deluco
put in his teenage son's pregnancy and someone else has discussed middle
child syndrom.  Still, I feel we discuss teen problems less.  I think these
people have a real real problem that I, personally feel absolutely inadequate
to deal with and live in terror that one day my children may manisfest some 
aspect of the same problem.

We watch thes kids grow and they get to be 17 and beyond our "control" but we 
still love and want to care for them.  I think this person's problem deserve's
some thought from our community.  Everybody here who has raised a child to 
adulthood knows that the "baby" problems are "easy" compared to something like
this.

Set mode pontificate = off ;-)

OK.  here are somethoughts I have.  I don't know whether this is helpful or not
but it does involve a certain amount of "wait and see" along with some action.

One of my nieces (my brother's wife's daughter) got into trouble early.  She
matured to quickly, had too much family responsibility, no controls because no
one wanted her to feel "responsible" for the divorce, etc. typical product of
a divorced marriage.  She got into drugs, boyfriends, running away, etc.  My 
brother tried to "get tough" and was only the bad guy so he distanced himself
from the problem.

My sister-in-law finally got smart.  She had her daughter, together with her
ex-husband's consent, placed in a home for problem, addicted teens.  My niece
spent about two years there.  When she came out, she was clean.  Many of her
problems with authority were on the way to being solved.  After about two more 
years (it needed some growing time) she was able to hold down a job and live
outside of her nuclear family (very important!).  She is actually quite a nice
person now, but most importantly, her life has been given to HER to live as 
an adult removed from the criticism of her family (who, after all, really wanted
only this for her, that she is happy).  She went into the home when she was 
about 15 and is now doing fine at 22.

I think sometimes parents have to find a controlled environment where they can
remove themselves from their offspring.

JMHO.
Cheryl

    Dear Cheryl,
    
    In no way was my pointer to Tough Love intended to squelch discussion,
    nor does it imply that nothing more need be said.
    
    I put pointers in occasionally for readers' convenience.
    
    L
    

    I have only small children myself, and no direct experience (as an
    adult) with problem teens. However, Carole's description of the boy 
    in .0 reminds me very much of my husband's teenage years. 
    
    He went through a very tough time during which he became increasingly
    estranged from his parents, had problems with drugs and the law,
    dropped out of school, and so on. They finally threw him out of the
    house when he was 17. He moved into an apartment with an older friend
    and frankly, I think it served him well to be out on his own. He had
    the resources to take care of himself (he had worked since he was 14,
    and after leaving school worked full time; through all his problems he
    always worked.) Getting out of the parent-child relationship was
    probably the best thing for him at that point.
    
    The sad part of his story is that irreparable harm was done to his
    relationship with his parents. It didn't have to get as bad as it did.
    If it were my kid I hope I would get into some heavy family therapy...
    
    Good luck,
    
    Lucy

    Perhaps you are right Cheryl, I will not argue with your point
    about dealing with teens vs. babies. It appears (from my point of
    view only) that advice for babies may be easier to give than those
    for teens - the child grows into a more complex person with each 
    year and it is harder to give advice to someone who you don't
    personally know, about a child who is more complex (emotionally,
    socially and in his/her interaction with their environment) than
    a baby.
    I really hate to think what is a head for us who are starting out
    with babies now. I considered myself an average teen with few 
    problems, and yet, you ask my mom, she'll tell you what heartache
    both her kids caused her (and we were GOOD!) I hated being a 
    teenager. So now, as a parent I admit I live with a buried fear
    about that time for my child, as the world has become a bigger 
    badder place since I was a kid.
    
    Perhaps those of you who feel that you've successfully gotten 
    though that period of your children's lives may give us some success
    stories to think about (rather than particular advice for 
    complex teen problems) and relate to our own situations.
    
    Monica
     

    The following note is one I just pulled together from another file. 
    These are all *MY* notes... as I will not post someone elses.. some are
    in reply to other notes.. and where there was a name of a person I was
    answering or talking about (another DECcie) I put XXXXX in the place of
    the name!
    
    This was my expericence with a teenage problem last year!  I will state
    here that things are much much better... Sarah seems more "human" and
    willing to try to work out her problems with us, rather than against
    us... and we have been released from the therapists we had been seeing
    for 9 months.  
    
    This group of notes is long.... but it may help the basenoter with some
    suggestions!  Or at least let them know they are NOT alone!
    
    Thoughts,
    
    Mary-Lynn
             
    
    
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	         I think I just need some miracle to happen!        39 replies
MVDS02::BELFORTI "Time to get a new Timmy!"         198 lines  27-FEB-1992 12:30
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Let me preface this with an apology... I have not been in this file in several 
months... very busy at work and no time to even think.  Plus I felt like I was 
doing OK.... and was afraid of reading of others hurts... so what do I do???  
I bring you my hurt.... I am sorry!!!



Dear Friends,

My life has turned upside down!  I am fighting one of the worse headache/eye 
aches I have ever had, and I feel so desperately alone!

I have had problems in the past with my daughter, Sarah.  She turned 16 last 
November.  For a few years she has been very bullheaded, and combative towards 
me (in particular, everyone in general), and her grades have really hit rock 
bottom (she failed 3 of 5 finals this last time).... I have suggested therapy, 
but she is very adamant about NOT going... she has said that if I make her go, 
she will not say anything. I have talked with a therapist who said that until 
she is ready to talk to someone, it is useless to force her to go to sessions.

A year ago her best friend got pregnant, at just barely 15... Sarah was so 
upset with this friend that it opened doors for me!  She started talking to me 
about different problems she was having, we discussed everything.  And I mean 
everything.  She admitted that she had tried pot, but didn't like it, she had 
said she had been drinking but that she was in a group session at school, and 
she was OK.. she also admitted to losing her virginity... 

I guess I got my hopes up to high... I really thought we were communicating.  
We were doing lots more together, and it was running very smoothly at home.  
She told me just last Friday that she had been moved to the next level in her 
group sessions, for kids who had been dry for X amount of time. (BTW, I had a 
session with her counselor last year, and was told that the group sessions 
were private, they would not confirm or deny that she was part of it).

Friday night she stayed at a friends house.  Saturday she can home after work, 
she works at a Donut place, and took a shower.  I had to go grocery shopping, 
and left her standing the middle of the kitchen talking to a friend on the 
phone.  No bitter words, nothing happening out of the ordinary.... she was 
making plans to go out.  

She did not come home Saturday night!

I called her friends house Sunday afternoon, and got the mother.  Seems the 
girls had planned to stay at my house Sunday night, I didn't know this, but no 
big deal....  I called the donut shop, and her friend answered the phone, 
Sarah had gone to the store, but they had decided not to come to my house they 
were going back to hers.  I told her to have Sarah call me from her house when 
they got in. 

Sarah called and we talked for a few minutes.  I asked her if she was planning 
on coming home after babysitting with her friend Monday night, she said yes.  
It was a pleasant conversation, no big deal.  I felt OK with the talk.

Monday, no phone call, and she did not come home.  I knew she was to babysit, 
and figured she would get in after I went to bed.  So I went to bed, unknowing 
that she wasn't going to be there in the morning when I woke up.

Tuesday morning I called her friends house and told her that I wanted her home 
that day, no questions about it.  I had not seen her since Saturday, and only 
talked to her because I had initiated the calls.  I wanted her home, she had 
things she needed to do at the house, plus with this week being vacation, I was 
pretty sure she had homework.  She got mad and said she would get there when 
she could find a ride... I told her I didn't care how she got home, I just 
wanted her home.

She called me in the afternoon, to tell me that she had been called into work. 
I told her to call us to come pick her up.  She called her brother and told him 
it was going to be a late night, she was working a double shift, but that she 
would call for a ride home, probably about 11:00.  She called at 10:10, my 
husband took the call.  All I heard Steven say was, "Sarah, I am not going to 
get in an argument on the phone.... you do what you know is right".  

She did not come home. (BTW, she did get called in, I talked with her boss)

I left a note for her telling her that if she couldn't abide by my wishes then 
she should make plane reservations and go out to Colorado to live with her 
father.  Maybe she could live by his rules!  I also said that if she was not 
there when I got home I would be forced to report her as a runaway.

I called the house off and on all day, no answer.  Finally a little after 4:00 
yesterday, she answered.  She said she was only there for a short time, and 
that she would not be there when I got home.  I asked her where she would be, 
and she asked if I would have her picked up.  I told her probably, and she told 
her she wouldn't let me know where she was.  

My boss told me to leave!  By the time I arranged the phones and called my 
husband and told him to go straight home.... I finally got home about 5:20.... 
she not only was gone, but she had taken all of the clothes that she wears, all 
of her makeup (not a lot), her hair dryer and curling iron, and her whole 
penguin collection.  Her room looks like a cyclone went through it.

After crying for about 1/2 an hour, I was already crying here at work..... I 
started making phone calls.  I tried her friends house, no answer!  I called 
her old boyfriend, they had dated for about 9 months, and just broke up 2 weeks 
ago... he was really upset.  He called back a few minutes later, and broke down 
on the phone.... he told me the reason they had broken up was because he kept 
telling her she needed help, she was out of control with the alcohol and pot, 
and he said he wasn't sure what else.  She apparently had cheated on him with 
other guys, just to get what she needed for her addictions... and he felt he 
couldn't tell me, because after all I am her mother.  He is feeling guilty as 
hell right now, because he didn't do more... IT IS NOT HIS FAULT!

I got in touch with another friend of hers, the father of the friends baby... 
he's a good kid, just stupid at times.  He does not know her boyfriend, yet he 
gave me the same story.... he thought that she had things under control, but 
that she was heavy into alcohol and pot, but he didn't think there was anything 
else... that's one story from 2 different people.

I called a friend of my son's, who Sarah is close with.  He called me back and 
said he had made some calls... he also told me that she had told him about 
parties she had attended and got bombed at.... he said he didn't say anything 
because it was all hearsay, he had never seen it.  He also said that someone he 
knows who is into the drug scene at the high school said that she knew Sarah 
and that she was heavy into the alcohol and drug scene..... that makes one 
story from 4 different people, only 2 of them know each other!

My son said that she told him I knew she was drinking and that she was trying 
to get help.... that is why he never pushed the issue with me! (he is 18) So, 
let me see.... that is at least 5 with the same story!

I finally got ahold of the friend she had been staying with, she was floored.  
She said that when Sarah left her house she said she was going home.  Well, she 
did... long enough to pack.  Her friend said she did not know where she was, 
and if she did she would call me, if Sarah wouldn't.

I then called the police.  I put a runaway report in, and told the officer 
everything that I had been told.  I also told him that if I found out where she 
was, I would rather they pick her up.  She would probably just run again as 
soon as I got her home.  He said he thought it was a good idea too.  I gave him 
her picture, and description.  He seems to think that with her packing 
everything up, that it was a preplanned thing, and the note I left just made it 
happen sooner... but that it would have happened anyway!

My husband installed deadbolts, as we don't want her to have free run of the 
house when we are not there..... the police said that this was an excellent 
idea... because if she can come and go as she pleases, while we are at work... 
than what kind of help are we going to be able to get for her???  

After all of this... I sat and cried some more.... then I really took action... 
I called Lake Shore Hospital... they are about 1/2 a mile from my house.  I 
asked about in-patient care.... after telling them everything that I had found 
out, and what I suspected... they said she definitely met the criteria, and 
took all our information over the phone... now all we need to do is find her.  
They will admit her immediately... and start her on rehab.  I feel good about 
this... this is what she needs.. to get away from her associates... and into 
intensive counseling!

I talked with her father this morning!  I think she will also go live with him 
in Colorado... just to get her away from the influence here.  I realize the 
influence is everywhere.... but by the time she gets reacquainted with the 
outside world, maybe she will be able to make the right decisions... but if 
she were to come home to me, she would still have the same situation to go back 
to at school.

I'll tell you... this has been the worst 16 years I have ever spent, in the 
last 24 hours... I have relived her whole life since her birth.... just to see 
where I could have made things different!

Last weekend, off the wall, just in conversation... she said that she blamed 
Steven for the break-up of her father and I... this was 9+ years ago... her 
father and I talked for a long time about getting a divorce, but never did 
anything about it... Steven may have been what made me make the final move... 
but we had already discussed who would get what and who would have the kids 
live with them, and everything.... Steven did not cause the breakup!  When I 
talked to her yesterday, when she said she was leaving... I asked her what I 
had done to cause this... she said it wasn't me... she hates Steven, and she 
can't live by my rules...  the only steadfast rule I ever had was, I needed to 
know where my kids were at all times, in case of an emergency.  No other carved 
in concrete rules.....

Of course, with me being a sexually abused child.... one of the first things 
that went through my mind when she said she hated Steven was... well, you know! 
I talked with her friend, who she tells everything to, and she said that there 
was NEVER any indication of anything like that.... also, I asked my son if he 
possible suspected anything... he adamantly said no.... there was never ever 
anything like that.  He said he would never have kept quiet if there had been 
even the slightest idea of abuse.  I feel guilty, because I trust Steven with 
my live.... I love him so much sometimes that it almost hurts... yet, the 
question reared it's ugly head!  I do not think.... no.... I know that there is 
nothing going on, and never has been..... but the doubt is there and 
unfortunately will never go away, because of my own background!

So, after all this.... I am feeling like hell.... the headache is worse, my 
guilt towards Steven is there (my ex even asked if there was anything going 
on) and I'm afraid that will never be settled, more to feel guilty about... and 
then there is Sarah.... she is the real loser in this whole thing, she is 
losing her childhood, her hold on reality.. and I am so afraid her life!

I am sorry to go on like this.... but I really need to talk to someone, and 
let others in on my hurt.... maybe someone else can see something that I am 
forgetting to do..... and help steer me in the right direction!

I feel lost!

Thanks all, thoughts and hope...

M-L

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		I think I just need some miracle to happen!           3 of 39
MVDS02::BELFORTI "Time to get a new Timmy!"          27 lines  27-FEB-1992 16:22
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    Thanks to you all, off line too!

    The hospital called to tell me what my insurance company said...  they
    cover 60 days psychiatric care per year, or 30 days substance abuse per
    year.... they also said that they will cover 85% of the charges.... but
    anything over $1000 they will cover everything.

    And to answer the question....Lake Shore is a psych/substance abuse
    hospital...... I would never do anything but a specialist at this
    point!

    One of Sarah's friends (the father of her friends baby), was so upset
    that he didn't go to work today... he has been out cruising the streets
    of Manchester.... going to all the local haunts... he called and spoke
    to Brent, my son.  He wants to come to the house tonight, to just be
    with us!  I am going to tell him the same thing the police told us..
    jsut continue on with our everyday plans, as if nothing extraordinary
    was happening... otherwise it will eat us alive!!!  
    
    It's easier said than done... I have done nothing today... but at least
    I am here!!!!  If I were home, I would be going nuts!!!!
    
    Thanks again!
    
    Thoughts and hope,
    
    M-L

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		I think I just need some miracle to happen!           5 of 39
MVDS02::BELFORTI "Time to get a new Timmy!"          24 lines  28-FEB-1992 09:01
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    I finally was able to talk with her friends mother.... the mother works
    2 jobs, just to support the family.... she was very angry, as she has
    not seen either one of her girls all week... Jenn is almost 16 and
    Nancy is 14.  They have called her at work, but they have not been home
    while she has been there. 
    
    I told her everything that was going on, and begged her NOT to let Jenn
    know, as if she knows where Sarah is, it may cause Sarah to run even
    futher.
    
    I am going to be calling the police today, to see if they have checked
    with donut shop.... Jenn's mother thought she saw Sarah working
    yesterday... I just spoke to Sarah's boss yesterday and asked him to
    please call me if she showed up there.  He told me he would!
    
    So much for help from another adult!  I hope to hell he isn't
    involved... if he is I will prosecute to the fullest extent of the
    law...... starting with contributing to the deliquency of a minor.  No
    matter where she is, if there is an adult present they will be
    prosecuted..... 
    
    Am I being a bitch.... you bet!  
    
    M-L

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		I think I just need some miracle to happen!           7 of 39
MVDS02::BELFORTI "Time to get a new Timmy!"          34 lines  28-FEB-1992 15:31
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    New Hampshire!
    
    I don't know if it is against the law, but if the parents are willing
    to file a report, then the police are willing to help!
    
    Sarah's friend Jenn just called me.  She was crying on the phone.  She
    talked with Sarah on Wednesday night.... she told her that she thought
    it was stupid to run away... and asked where she was going to stay...
    Sarah said she wasn't sure... I know she isn't dragging tht big ol'
    suit case around Manchester... she has to be somewhere!!!
    
    Jenn feels like if she tells me anything she is betraying her friend,
    but at the same time she is just as worried as everyone else.  I told
    her if she would feel better, if she finds out where Sarah is... to
    call Brian... the friend who couldn't work for worry yesterday.... he
    has all kinds of feelers out, so any information he gives us doesn't
    mean it came from her... I think she felt better about that... at least
    she isn't feeling like a traitor, and she can be of help... if she can
    find out where Sarah is!  
    
    Jenn was at home with her mother when she called.... so she knows the
    fears ....
    
    Oh my God... she just called back... she called the police and told
    them where Sarah was..... I am shaking...  I pray (and I'm not a
    prayer) thta Sarah is at the house where Jenn says she is.... my heart
    is beating so fast.... and I am shaking so much I can barely even type
    
    I will let you all know... I may not be back in here until Tuesday
    monrnig, but will try to check in over the weekend!
    
    Thoughts and lots of HOPE!!!
    
    M-L

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	        I think I just need some miracle to happen!          11 of 39
MVDS02::BELFORTI "Time to get a new Timmy!"         126 lines   3-MAR-1992 14:28
                     -< Update for 3/3/92.. the weekend! >-
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    To all my dear friends.... it is all over, or should I say Now it
    starts!???????

    Sarah was picked up a little before 4 on Friday.  She was fairly calm
    until she saw Pete and Brian standing outside, and realized that they
    were the ones who reported her (she does not know that Jenn was
    actually the one who did it, Jenn wants to be the one to tell her).  I
    guess she really lost it.... Brian said he has never hear Sarah say
    some of the things she said, and not the combination of foul language
    that she was yelling at them.

    They boys went back to Jenn's to let her know what had happened, and
    there was a knock at the door.... it was a guy named Pete Holt, he has
    just recently been kicked out of an In-patient long term rehab center
    (it's pretty hard to be kicked out of a place like that).  Pete K. (her
    former boyfriend) and Brian went out the back door as Pete H. came in
    the front.  Pete H. asked Jenn where Pete K. was, his car was outside,
    so he knew he was there.  Luckily Pete H. had left the front door
    open.......  Pete K. and Brian came back in the back door, and Pete H.
    pulled a knife on them.... just as an undercover cop walked up to the
    door.  He had followed the boys back to Jenn's to make sure they were
    OK..... Brian said he had Pete H. on the floor faster than he has ever
    seen anyone move... they arrested him for assault with a deadly weapon,
    plus they pulled up his name on their computer, there are several
    warrants out for his arrest.... the cop told me that he will be sent
    away for a very long time.....  The cop wasn't going to tell me
    anything, but when he told me that one of the guys at the apartment had
    been arrested, I supplied him with the name... I had already heard most
    of the story from the kids.... Sarah swears she had nothing to do with
    Pete H., or his decision to go after the boys.

    Anyway, the police called me a few minutes before 5:00, and told me
    that they had her, and that I needed to come pick her up.  I called the
    chiropractor's office and told them to hold Steven there, that Sarah
    had been picked up and we needed to go get her.  I had an appointment,
    but bulldozed my way through it....

    We left Steven's truck in the parking lot and went to the police
    station.  She refused to talk to us, or to even look at us.... Steven
    asked the cop if he could speak to him privately, they went into the
    office and Steven told him he was afraid that if we just walked out
    with her that she would run again.  The cop walked us out to the car! 
    One problem solved... it is a 2 door... she couldn't get out without
    crawling over me first!

    The first words out of her mouth were "So when do I go to Lake
    Shore?".... I almost didn't answer her... but told her that we were
    going there first.  She asked if we could go get her stuff first, I
    told her no... there was no way I was going to let her back there,
    especially with what I knew had happened at Jenn's place.

    We took her straight to Lake Shore.... they admitted her!  The
    Admitting Dr. talked to her, and the only way he could get any
    answers from her was if it was a yes or no answer, she would shake her
    head.  After about an hour she finally started talking a little bit...
    but very little!  He asked her how our relationship was (hers and mine)
    she said fine, he asked about her brother, she said fine, he asked
    about her step-fathers, and she said so-so.... then they asked about
    her fathers... and she got hysterical..... we figure that the problems
    she is having regarding Steven are something along the lines of
    resentment... he father has hurt and disappointed her so much, yet she
    has only Steven to take it out on...

    He talked with her alone, and then talked with us!  I told him that I
    had something to say, but I did not want to give him ideas... I told
    him that I had been an abused child, and that both of my kids knew that
    I would kill to protect them from that.... and that I KNEW that nothing
    like that had ever happened, but was afraid that if she really gets mad
    enough at us for this, it may be a way to get even, by reporting it
    about Steven... he said that that was one of the first things he asked
    her, and she had said no, nothing like that had ever happened... so we
    did not have to worry about it!  It made me feel better knowing that
    she wasn't thinking along those lines... hell, you can never tell!!!!

    We went back to the ward, and the nurse on duty talked with us all,
    told us what was expected of Sarah, and gave us a copy of the rules,
    plus a list of what she can and can not have while there..... Sarah was
    much more responsive to Norma, the nurse, Still upset, but talking
    more....  I had to give them a list of who had my permission to see
    Sarah, and to call too... Sarah asked if her favorite teacher could be
    put on the list, and her guidance counselor... I asked and Norma told
    us it was fine.  Only immediate family and those 2 are on the list
    right now... anyone can write to her, but not visit or call!  (I have
    since met with the counselor and met the teacher, and feel very good
    about both of them)

    We saw her room, and the classroom.... she will have to attend 3 1/2
    hours of school per day, we co-ordinated with the school and the
    hospital yesterday..... she should get full credit for her classes, as
    long as she completes the assignments.....

    As we were leaving, I asked her if I could have a hug... she gave me
    the biggest hug ever... I told her that this was not fun for me, and
    that I was not doing it to punish her... I was doing it because I love
    her.  I think part of that at least sunk in!

    She told me Saturday that she would rather not see Steven, yet!  So he
    has not been back to the hospital... he is hurting too, even though he
    would never say anything... I know he is.

    She tested clean for substance... which only means that she hadn't done
    anything in the past 24 hours. But... they said she is extremely
    depressed.....  they started her on Prozac this morning... I don't know
    that I like the idea of drugs being used, but she is in-patient and
    they can watch her.... I am going to strangle the Dr. when I see him,
    he told her yesterday that she might get out next week, this was
    BEFORE he talked with me.  I do not want her home until they get the
    meds regulated, and until we all make sure she is on the road to proper
    recovery.... the Meds will take anywhere from 2 to 4 weeks to regulate
    properly.

    I talked with her clinician this morning.  We go in for family therapy
    Thursday night, I asked if Steven should be there... she said that he
    should come, but we would have to see how it went with Sarah.  

    So, that is the story... she went to her first AA meeting last night,
    and her first NA meeting is tonight.  There are 3 AA meeting during the
    week and one NA.  We'll have to see how it goes.

    Thanks all, but it really isn't over yet... keep the good thoughts
    coming... she still needs them.. AND SO DOES HER GETTING GRAYER EVERY
    DAY MOTHER!

    Thoughts and hope,

    M-L

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		I think I just need some miracle to happen!          16 of 39
CSSE32::BELFORTI "Time to get a new Timmy!"          60 lines   5-MAR-1992 15:36
                      -< Hope this clears up wht I said! >-
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    XXXXX, no problem.... I have heard of people saying things just to get
    other people in trouble (there have been instances where people were
    put in jail for something they did not do, because someone else was mad
    about something)... I know Sarah, or at least I thought I did... who
    knows what these other people (the ones she was staying with) said to
    her....

    I have no inner fears... except that damn demon... I know that Steven
    would rather slice his wrists then do anything to either of my kids...
    there is NO question in my rational mind... it's the irrational one,
    the dysfunctional one... the one I know enough not to listen to.... 
    Just because it happened to me, DOES NOT MEAN IT HAPPENS TO EVERYONE
    ELSE!!!  I know this..... 

    A long time ago, I baby sat for a little  one (about 8 years old) who
    told her teacher that her father had "touched her"... this was while my
    ex was in the military... all hell broke loose, he lost custody of her
    for a short while, and the stigmata NEVER was taken way... turns out,
    after much investigation... yes, he had touched her... he was a single
    parent, she complained of a hurt down there, and he checked it out..
    saw that it was red, and put some Desatin on it.... that was it... but
    is was blown out of proportion!  I did not want something innocent like
    that to happen to us!

    Hope that cleared it up!

    We go in for our first family counseling session tonight..... Steven
    has not seen Sarah since last Friday, as she wished... he is hurting
    that she has been like this... 

    Her father called her the other night, and all he did was cry on the
    phone... he says that maybe this is all his fault... not all of it..
    but a hell of a lot of it.....  when he was out of work I told him to
    keep his support check for a couple months and come out to see the
    kids... he refused... yet he took 3 weeks to go to Ireland (while he
    was unemployed).... and then didn't send any support to the kids for
    several months... They saw him for the first time in over 2 1/2 years,
    last summer!  He says it is too hard for him to say goodbye when they
    come back home.... well, how does he think they feel when he refuses to
    see them???!!!

    Just before Christmas, I wrote him a letter asking him to please help
    out with some added expenses.... my son's graduation picture package
    (with about 1/2 going to the ex's side of the family) cost us about 4
    times what I thought it would (boy have prices gone UP since I got out
    of school).... plus some other things... I let the kids read the letter
    before I sent it (my son begged me not to ask, he said he knew what
    would happen).... I got a really nasty letter back, saying that he
    didn't know what I perceived his situation... but he has a new family
    to think about... (he just remarried, a woman who's kids live with her
    ex).  I was so mad... I let the kids read that one too... 

    Maybe I am wrong to feel that he is a lot of the problem.... but
    damnit... when Sarah is asked about the different relationship within
    the family... he is the only one she gets hysterical trying to discuss! 
    How else should I read this????

    Anyway... sorry to ramble... but DAMN HIM!!!!!

    M-L

================================================================================
		I think I just need some miracle to happen!          17 of 39
CSSE32::BELFORTI "Time to get a new Timmy!"          15 lines   5-MAR-1992 16:52
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    My son just called... very upset!  There is a letter at the house for
    Sarah from the guy who was arrested..... the return address has his
    name and the NH House of Corrections.... Brent wants to burn the
    letter, without telling her about it.
    
    I called my mother, she was a legal sec'y for 25 years... I asked her
    if by law I had to give Sarah the letter... she said no!  I even have
    every right to open it and read it!  I feel weird about it, but I
    really do not want Sarah having anything to do with this guy!
    
    What do you all think???  I have a feeling I will open it, and if it is
    nothing, just a letter I may think about giving it to her!!!!  Then
    again... I may just burn it up and not even worry about it!
    
    

================================================================================
		I think I just need some miracle to happen!          20 of 39
CSSE32::BELFORTI "Time to get a new Timmy!"          25 lines   6-MAR-1992 09:11
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Thanks, XXXXX for the advise..... I took the letter with me last
    night, to our first family session.... before Sarah came in I told the
    Counselor that I had it, and who it was from.. and why I wasn't sure I
    should give it to her...  the counselor told me to open it, read it and
    if I felt she should have it to give it to her and tell her that the
    counselor told me to screen just that one letter (I have NEVER read my
    kids mail).
    
    I did, and boy am I glad I did!  He told her to remember who the only
    person was who really loved her, that nobody else does, just him.  He
    said he knew who told where she was and if she wanted he would take
    care of the situation.  He also told her he wanted to see her, but
    seeing as she had to have an adult with her, to call his brother... he
    would take her to the prison to see him.  
    
    I am going to stop by the police department today, with the letter....
    with him saying he would "take care of the situation", and he has
    already pulled a knife on Brian and Pete.. I am really scared for the
    boys, her friend Jenn and us as well!!!  Who knows what he will do! 
    His hearing is March 9.... I am really afraid he will get out and come
    after someone..... I want him to stay as far way from her as possible..
    
    This scares me more than what Sarah has done..... 
    
    M-L

================================================================================
		I think I just need some miracle to happen!          23 of 39
CSSE32::BELFORTI "Time to get a new Timmy!"          24 lines   9-MAR-1992 14:38
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I just spoke to Steven.  He took the letter down to the police
    department... unfortunately there is nothing they can do at this point. 
    They suggested we let the boys know what is going on, and let them know
    if anything happens.  He mentioned something about witness
    tampering..... as far as I know Pete K. and Brian have not been called
    to be witnesses, although, with Pete H. pulling a knife on them, I
    guess they could/should be!  
    
    Sarah is due to get out of the hospital on Friday... I am not sure I am
    ready for this!  Actually, I'm not sure she is ready to face the crowd
    at school.  Brent (my 18+yr old) has volunteered to try to spend more
    time with her.  Friday nights are normally his night to shoot pool with
    his friends, she has gone a few times... he is going to make her a
    regular for Fridays.  Saturday is his D&D group, they met at my house
    this week, and he says they will try to get Sarah interested in that as
    well (I don't think he is going to have much luck with the D&D, she
    hates games).
    
    We are working on things...... hopefully things will be better by
    Friday!!!!
    
    Will add more later!!
    
    M-L 

================================================================================
		I think I just need some miracle to happen!          26 of 39
CSSE32::BELFORTI "Time to get a new Timmy!"          42 lines  10-MAR-1992 15:42
     -< She is slowly realizing that her life is good, compared to other >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    XXXXXXX,

    She wants to continue with AA, but feels there is no need for NA.  I
    have told her that until her Dr. tells her she does not need to go, she
    will continue!  She has asked if I will accompany her to AA... I have
    said yes.  I rarely drink (we have several bottles of liquor that we
    got when we first got together, over 9 years ago... that are 3/4 or
    more full).... as my second step-father was a nasty alcoholic, and I
    saw what it did to all of us, but I will go with her if it will help 
    the situation.  She is currently looking for a sponsor, and was suppose 
    to talk to someone in her Monday night mtg.  I will find out if she did, 
    tonight!  She attends 3 AA mtgs per week, and one NA.

    I have not found out yet what happened yesterday, in court!  I did
    happen to ask Sarah what she would do if Pete H. came around... she has
    stated that he had no right to go after Pete K. and Brian, and she
    wants nothing to do with him.  She says if he won't take no for an
    answer, she will request we get a restraining order on him.  She still
    does not know about the letter... I don't think she needs to, yet!  We
    have talked with Brian and Pete K. to let them know that there was a
    threat, and that we contacted the police... if there is anything amiss
    with them they are to report it to the police IMMEDIATELY!!

    Now if we could just find a *cheap* used car for my son, so that he can
    take her to school, bring her back home, take her to work, bring her
    back home... we need some kind of leash on her until we know things are
    OK again!  She has a friend who wanted her to come visit, the first day
    she is due out of the hospital, and I told him that until further
    notice, she is welcome to have as many guests in as she wants... but I
    don't want her making plans to go out!  Her friends can stay until
    either their curfew, or Sarah's... 8:00 on school nights, and 12:00
    weekends... unless things get out of hand... then the times will be
    changed!

    Thanks EVERYONE, for all the support..... I'm not sure that I might
    have been in the room down the hall from her, if I hadn't had you all
    supporting me!

    I love you all!!!!!

    M-L 
 

================================================================================
		I think I just need some miracle to happen!          30 of 39
CSSE32::BELFORTI "Time to get a new Timmy!"         112 lines  20-MAR-1992 09:37
                           -< I  ***HATE*** limbo!  >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Well, as you can see the forthcoming update did not happen!

    So... here's the update, or should we call it a lowdate?

    Sarah made great strides while at Lake Shore.  She was in such good
    shape that she was the only in-patient with unescorted privileges.  She
    could basically leave the ward, and the hospital building all by
    herself.... as long as they knew where she was.

    She was doing all right on the Prozac, it gave her an upset stomach for
    about a week, and a mild headache every day around 10:00.  She was
    taking Motrin for that.

    Monday (3/16... my 39th birthday) she was released from Lake Shore. I
    picked her up in enough time to go get her re-registered in school, and
    drop off all of her books.... this way Tuesday morning she would not
    have that much to carry in and she could start going directly to
    classes... we talked with her counselor, and he told her that any time
    during the day that she felt she needed to, she was welcome in his
    office.  She was very nervous.... shaking like a leaf, and she told me
    later that when one of her friends walked up Monday, as we walked in the
    school, and gave her a hug she almost passed out... just from nerves.

    Monday night she asked me to attend her AA meeting with her... I felt
    like an outsider, or a peeping Tom, but I went because I felt she
    needed me!  (BTW, she gets her one month chip this coming Saturday...
    and has asked the family to be there.  Steven has to work, but will try
    to get some time off to go)

    Tuesday I dropped both kids at school, Brent walked her directly into
    Mr. Underwood's office, he is her counselor... this way she wouldn't be
    tempted to stand around outside with the friends she knows she really
    must give up, for her own good.  I called the house at 3:00, to see how
    everything was, she seemed OK. She had a bloody nose during the day,
    that came on suddenly.  We figured her nerves were really causing her
    bloodpressure to be elevated, and that was what could have caused this
    to happen.  She was still shaky, but OK!!

    Tuesday night she asked if we could take her to NA, and also her friend
    Jenn wanted to go with her.  No problem!!  Brent took them over and
    went back to pick them up after the meeting.

    Wednesday morning was the same as Tuesday.  She called me at about 2:00
    to tell me that she had forgotten her keys, and that she was going to
    go to Toys R Us, where Brent works... and wait there for me.  She was
    very upset and worried that if I called the house and she wasn't there,
    that I would report her as missing again.  She didn't want that!  I
    told her that she used her head, and I was VERY glad she called.  Proud
    of her for doing it!

    Wednesday night she came out from taking a shower and we could tell she
    had been crying.  She told us that she has not been sleeping, only
    getting at the most 3 hours a night, and that she has had lots of
    thoughts about how much better off we would be without her around.  She
    said she has thought about suicide, but just hasn't thought about how
    to actually go about doing it.  We talked to over 2 hours about how we
    are there for her, and how she might be able to channel her thoughts
    other ways, when those thoughts start coming into her head.  She seemed
    a little better!

    Yesterday morning, she told me that the thoughts were with her all
    night, and she had not slept most of the night again.  I took her to
    school, and went in with her to talk to Mr. Underwood, so that he would
    be aware of how she was feeling.  He suggested she stay with me.  She
    agreed, so Sarah was here at work with me all day.  (BTW, I would
    normally have taken the day off, but the other sec'y here broke her
    ankle on Tuesday night.. so I am sole support to the group.... and
    besides, Sarah was fine here playing games on the computer)

    We had lunch with XXXXXX XXXXXXX, and she
    seemed quiet but OK.  She has known XXXXXX for almost as long as I
    have, about 5 years.  So she wasn't being shy, just quiet.  XXXXX told
    me last night when I vax-phoned her, that she thought Sarah had lost a 
    lot of weight.... She has lost about 10 lbs., but when you start off at 
    just over 100, at 5'4"... it shows!

    Last night we had our first family session with a Dr. outside of Lake
    Shore.  We were with him for about 2 hours.  The whole time, Sarah was
    getting more and more angry with the situation, and more and more
    withdrawn..... he finally talked with her alone for a few minutes.  He
    came back out and got us, and told us that his true feelings were, that
    Sarah should be back at Lake Shore.. and she should go straight from
    his office.  She agreed!  He called and told Admitting that we were on
    our way.            

    We did stop by the house, it's only about 1/2 a mile from the hospital,
    so that she could grab some clothes, her comforter and her pillows...
    this way she would at least has some of her own stuff there.  I will
    take over some of her other things either tonight or tomorrow morning!

    The admitting Dr. said he thinks a lot of the mind drifting, and the
    insomnia are from the Prozac.... but it takes 2-6 weeks to get the
    dosage right.  Prozac has a slight stimulant in it, so she take it in
    the morning.  They are going to start her on another anti-depressant, I
    can't remember the name, will get it today, that has a slight downer in
    it.. this will be given at night, to also help her sleep.  I don't like
    the idea of all these drugs, but maybe she really does need them.  What
    she needs MOST right now, is to sleep.  Both Dr.'s think a lot of the
    problems are that she can't sleep.... sleep deprivation can do horrible
    things.. just look at me!

    Soo, that is where we stand!  She is back in the hospital... I am still
    not sleeping.... my headache is so bad today that I wanted to just stay
    home and pull the covers over my head... I will go to the Chiropractor
    tonight after work, go see Sarah and go home to bed!   
    
    Just thought you would want to know what was happening!  It was looking
    good, at least for a little while... now we are back in limbo!
    
    Thoughts and hope,
    
    M-L

The following note (431.8) has 767 lines.

Laura, I wasn't meaning to criticize.  The pointer was good but it seemed to me
that this plea for help got so little response.  I wanted to stimulate 
discussion.

This is important to me because so many of my family and my husband's family 
have gone through the base noter's problem or the problem faced by Mary-Lynn.
Another niece of mine had her boyfriend try to slit her throat (crawled in
the window one night and cut her, fortunately missing the jugular).  This
same niece is the one who ran off, got married, divorced and had a baby, all in
less than a year's time.

My two sons (12 and 14) are just entering this period and I want to know what I 
can do NOW before I have to suffer through what .0 and .8 do.  Especially I 
can see Markus, my 12 year old, getting up to all kinds of things he shouldn't.
I want to catch it before we need the counseling and I need help to know how to
deal with these things, the drugs, the alcohol, theft, lying, fighting, or better
yet see that he doesn't get involved in the first place.

Another thing that I have seen in many of my younger relatives (between 20 and 
30) is a tendency to "drift", to not be able to settle down to some sort of 
meaningful existance.  It may be a sign of our times and economic reality but
many of them have had everything handed to them and don't feel any urgency to
start looking after themselves.  I felt this also with the majority of the 19
au paires I had over the past 10 years.  No sense of the idea that "this is your
life and you'll only get out of it what you put into it", which is how I was
raised.

I think, as I said in .2 and as another noter mentioned, that a lot of the
problem with the boy in .0 is rebelliousness and an attempt to break away from
his parents and become independent.  We don't know if he is doing drugs or 
anything more.  There is a basic conflict here.  If the boy is just rebelling, 
then maybe as has been suggested here, the best thing to do is to get him out
of the house and let him have a go at life on his own.  However, if he is in
serious trouble with the law or doing drugs or anything else, he needs his
family and the right kind of friends to support him at the same time that they
let go.  I wish I knew what to do.

Cheryl

    Thank you for your responses.  I though it may be appropriate to paint
    a bigger picture of Jay. 
    
    First of all my brother and his wife are VERY good parents.  Jay is the
    second of four boys.  My brother and his wife have always spent lots of
    time with their children doing FAMILY activities.  They camp, motor cross,
    ski, boat, tube go on nice family vacation and are very religous.  Jay
    doesn't do well in school, shoplifts, has tried drugs (but drugs aren't
    his problem) drinks and worst of all hangs out with a real bad crowd. 
    His older brother who is 22 hasn't helped matters by allowing
    Jay to spend the night at his house, drinking and letting girls sleep
    over.  Once my brother realized what was going on he put a stop to
    over-nighters at big brother house.  The older brother feels that he'd
    rather have Jay drinking at his house instead of out on the street.
    
    Jay has run away three times since August, and no matter who talks to
    him, he claims he'll never do it again, but does.  He has caused his
    parents so much pain that it is taking it's toll on their marriage.
    
    Up until a year ago they didn't see the signs.  The friends Jay brought
    home appeared to be nice kids.  Most recently my brother has had friends
    tell him that Jay hangs out with a group of kids that look like they
    are part of a gang.  Jay admits that he can't get away from his friends
    and the inner city school he attends is frightening to the point where
    the teachers are afraid to question kids because of guns and drugs.
    
    Like I said in the base note, they don't want to give up on Jay, they
    just need to find help.  They have decide to put their house up for
    sale and move to another town.  They have two younger children to think
    about and Jay feels getting away from his "FREINDS" and out of that
    school will give him a new start.  Hopefully it won't be to late,
    houses around here don't sell as fast as they use to.
    
    Thanks again...
    Carole
                                                  

I think that Monica had it right when she suggested that it is a far more
complex issue when you start dealing with teens, in that every child's
emotional makeup is sufficiently different that the same symptoms can have
a million different sources.

I think that to discuss these things to be really helpful a lot of info is
required, and often more than anyone is really prepared to show in public.

Also, how many people in here actually have teens ?  I don't yet.  I can
relate some of my own family's teen experiences, but I'm not sure that I
can translate a lot of those experiences into much useful to help even when
my girls hit their teens.

Stuart

    
The following reply is being entered at the request of a member of
the PARENTING notesfile community who prefers to remain anonymous
at this time.

Carol Stolicny, PARENTING co-mod

I was a problem teen.  I don't know what to tell you about helping 
"Jay", but hopefully I can shed some light on what was going through my 
mind - now that I understand what was going on.

My father left when I was 10 years old. We had been very close. He left 
my mother for another woman. I was the oldest of 2 daughters, my sister 
is 15 mos younger.  This other woman had 2 very small children which my 
dad adopted.  Needless to say it was a very bitter divorce and he pretty 
much closed the book on our family and started a new one with the new 
family. He was dead wrong when he said he was "divorcing my mother, not 
us kids".  I don't think he realized the impact it would have. My mother
lost the house and had to move into an apartment.

I started failing in school. I got involved with the wrong kids. My
mother was working so we became "latch-key" kids. We had a lot of free
time on our hands. We did have household chores that we were assigned,
but that didn't seem to keep me busy or interested.  Over the next few 
years, things just kept getting worse.

I started taking off.  My mother was getting very frustrated. I started 
smoking pot, then I started taking speed, mescaline and occasionally 
cocaine (I was 14).  I started experimenting with sex, and got pregnant 
first try. I was going to keep the baby, but lost it. I was very upset.

I started skipping school regularly and hitching rides 
to nearby cities and I'd sit and drink all day with older friends.

One day I hitched a ride and met this guy, he seemed nice. He picked me
up around town a couple of other times too.  Once I skipped school and
we went back to my house to watch TV and smoke.  I got up to go to the
bathroom and when I was walking back down the hall I saw my mother
coming in the house with the chief-of-police asking what I was doing out
of school - again?? I looked into the room and there he was, sitting
there with no pants on!!! I was horrified! I had no idea what he thought
was going to happen. Needless to say the cop asked us if we'd had sex. I 
said no. He said no. We hadn't. He just let him off with a warning to
stay away from me and he warned me that he was trouble.  The last time I
saw him, I skipped school again, he picked me up again and this time he
took me into the woods and raped me.  I still had half my clothes on - I
put up a d*mn good fight, but not good enough. He called me a slut.  One
of his friends found me and brought me home.  I told my mother what
happened (this was on her birthday).  I had cleaned up, and she called
the police.  She kept asking me if I had been willing, why wouldn't she, 
I'd been seeb with this guy before - I told her no. The police charged him
with statutory rape (I was 14).  I tried to kill myself. I gave myself a
tattoo too. My mother flipped.

The drugs got worse, and I was getting deeper and deeper into trouble.
My mother would try to physically keep me from going out, but I would
physically move her.  She started me in therapy (she had tried when I
was little when my dad left, but I hated it).  I went through several
counselors. I hated them. I would lie to them and try to shock them with
what I'd been through. Finally they had me committed. (this was one of the 
few times I'd seen my father, once before he came to beat me up for
beating up my sister - which I was also doing on a regular basis. He
held my arm behind my back and told me he'd break it if I didn't leave
her alone. I told him to go ahead and I didn't shed a tear. He let me go 
and sat down and cried.)

I was in a mental hospital (they hate when I say that) for 2.5 months. I 
escaped 3 times, once I stole my mothers boyfriends car out of the 
parking lot, and a couple of times I snuck out for minutes to drink or 
sneak a joint or something.  I celebrated my 15th birthday there. The 
guy that raped me got 6 months probation because they didn't think I was
stable enough to stand trial - so he basically got off with a slap on
the wrist.

My parents didn't know what to do about me. Finally, I learned to play the 
game and I was released, but I was put on a plane to my Aunts in Georgia. I 
think she thought because she had a husband and 2 other kids that I would 
live a normal family life. That didn't work. I started smoking pot again
and made some friends, some which happened to be black. That didn't go 
over well. As a matter of fact, I guess they thought that was the worst 
thing I could possibly do.  They called the police, said I was 
incorrigible and I was arrested and brought to lock-up. 

The woman guard told me to strip and shower, I refused. She threatened 
that she would do it for me if I didn't do it myself. Naturally I did.
She deliced me and the whole place was disgusting. They didn't have 
shower curtains cuz she had to make sure you weren't hiding anything.

The next day my aunt came and got me and put me on a plane back home. It
was very tense.  A guy on the plane bought me some drinks, so by the
time I got home I had a buzz. My mother and Aunt picked me up and my
mother cried. They were planning on putting me in a foster home... I
promised I'd be good if she'd just give me another chance.  It was good
for a while, but then I started getting into drugs again and trouble in
school.  My mother would stay home and watch me get on the bus in the
morning to make sure I went to school. Well, I did go to school - I
walked in the entrance with all the kids and walked out the back door
and started thumbing rides again. It just so happened that I met and
started dating my husband.  I was still 15 and he was 22. I loved him
right away and he told me that he didn't want to be with me if I was a 
loser, a failure a high-school drop out. He wanted a woman that would be 
somebody. So for him, I tried.  They took me out of public school and 
put me in school for troubled teens. I was there for a couple of years. 
I did really well, and I was the first kid to actually get out of there 
and go back to public school. I went to a trade school and I was a very 
good student and virtually drug-free.  To this day, I am 100% drug 
free...although every now and then I do feel tempted.  I even quit 
smoking cigarettes.  I now have an excellent relationship with my 
mother and I have a good job, a house and my parents made up and I'm
trying to find a relationship with my father again. Well, that's the worst 
of what happened, of course there is so much more that I just didn't have
time to get into (like my relationship with my dad's wife, the fist fights 
I would get into at school, etc).  

What do I think the problem was? I wanted my parents to get back together. 
I wanted things to be the way they were. I wanted my father to reach out to me 
and tell me he loved me and I was acting out to get attention. I had too 
much time on my hands to think about all the terrible things that were 
going on.

Reading the base note makes me worry about having my own children some 
day. Now that I'm an adult and can look at things objectively, I don't 
feel any resentment for anything that my family did to try to help me. I 
really think they (my mother at least) were just grasping at 
anything they could that might help me and stop me from killing myself 
one way or the other.

I don't know how to help you get out of this mess, but for others that
are afraid of getting into this, the only thing I can suggest is to keep
your children active. Get them involved at a very young age in sports,
and help them to find something that they're good at and encourage them 
to build on it.  I would even try to not leave them home alone - if one 
of the parents can stay with them, I'd recommend day care. My mother wasn't 
getting any support at all from my father. She couldn't afford to keep
us busy. I think that led into a lot of bad situations. It's not her 
fault and I don't blame her. If I'm going to blame anyone, I'd blame
him, because he didn't offer any support emotionally or financially. The 
only time he'd "try to help" was when I was beating on my sister, or if
I'd been caught with a boy.  Try to keep the communication lines open. I 
don't think forced therapy is a good idea. I finally got back into
therapy 4 years ago and I went for 2.5 years. It was very difficult for
me to trust again because I thought if I said what I was really feeling
that I'd be locked up and never see light again. I think your child 
has to be willing to go, but encourage them to talk to you. Sometimes 
we don't even realize what's bothering us but talking about it can help 
us to figure it out.  Do the best you can with the resources you have.
Try to be their friend. Do things with them. My mother couldn't.

As a side note, my sister never did any of the things I did. I think she
saw what it did to me and learned from my mistakes (thank God). She
has/had her own issues with our family situation, but she never acted
out like I did. She did great in school, and through it all (even though we
physically fought a lot) we remained very close friends.

I wish everyone all the luck in the world and hope your families come
together again.

I can't remember who the author of "When Saying No Isn't Enough" is, but I
bought and read this book and think it is excellent for parents with a problem
teen.  It mainly deals with drugs and alcohol addiction but to do this you 
also have to deal with the milieu in which the teen is living.  The author
discusses at lengths the problem that Jay has about "not being able to get 
away" and what to expect if you do move away from the neighborhood.  It seems
the bad influences are everywhere and if you do not know how to make a basic
change with the move, the child will just find an equivalent group in the
new environment.

He also discusses "danger signs" and how to spot problems (and how to avoid
them).  What was pertainant in my case was the second on educating your children
so they never need the "what do I do now!??" chapters of the book.

Jay sounds like he needs some good counseling but so do his parents.  They
sound like fine upstanding citizens who care for their children and can't 
understand how this could happen to them (just my take here).  They need to
understand that this can happen in "the best of families" and what they can
now do to recover.

I bought the book in paperback in a normal US bookstore.

Cheryl

After reading a number of books regarding depression, I have become very
loathe to use the judgemental terms like good or bad parents.  Parents
can be Kind, loving, generous, strict, stern and so on (all the same
attributes you might apply to an individual).

Being good or bad parents really does not mean a lot when it comes down
to problem children (or good children come to that).  For one reason or
another, a problem has developed where there is obviously mistrust and
miscommunication between Jay and his parents and it really is not a matter
of being "good" or "bad" parents.  I have known many parents of childred
I grew up with that make me shudder in my boots, but they've had really
good relationships with their parents and turned into fine adults.

Alcohol is a drug ... to say a person ins't into drugs but has an alcohol
problem is a contradiction.  When it comes to behaviour patterns and treatment
of the problem, they are identical.

In some ways, Jay's brother does have some valid points in that it IS better
that he does do things openly in his brother's home than sneaks and cheats
while at his parent's home.   The hitch is though that it does show a
conflict that Jay's parents rules didn't work on his brother ... so why
should he obey them either ?

If Jay's parents were to take the tough love approach where a child has to
see how bad it really is, this could be badly undermined by the brother, so
it would definitely take some co-operation between brother and parents ...
and regrettably, it doesn't sound as if that would happen.

I don't know if these musings will be a lot of help, but it really
sounds like a lot of analysis of the situation by all the parties concerned
is really needed.  It's a shame that it has gone this far, because it is
going to be a lot harder.

Stuart

    
    Thanks Stuart,  I appreciate your outlok of problem children does not
    necessarily equate to "good/bad" parents.
    
    Maybe I have read a few of the other replies wrong, but I almost took 
    them as meaning that because I had had problems with Sarah in the past, 
    and that we were still working through some issues, that maybe I wasn't 
    a good parent!  I realize that that is my own perception of what was
    said, but that is the way it came across!

    Because I am divorced and remarried does not mean I am a bad parent.  I
    have raised my kids the same.... no stricter with one than the other,
    even though one is a boy and one a girl.  I have no prejudices that
    way.  

    Yet they turned out very much different.

    Again, like I said, maybe I am just reading them wrong... but I got the
    feeling that people felt it was my being a bad parent that caused the
    problems.  And I guess I am a little hurt that in my trying to help by
    relaying the story, I may have caused more heartache for Sarah and
    myself!

    
    Mary-Lynn
  

    Mary-Lynn,

    	If it is any consolation, I never read your story thinking that you
    were a "bad" parent, to the contrary I admired your strength and your
    inner persistence to help your daughter.

    	I saw you as a very loving parent who was doing the best she could
    to help change a very difficult situation.

    	I really appreciated reading your story (and yes I read the entire
    thing) and even though I am one of the noters in this file who have
    children on the baby end, I still think that I learned much from your
    experience. I felt your pain and frustration and I could also see how
    very much effort went into this situation because of the love and
    commitment that obviously existed.

    	Thank you for taking the time to post it.


    				Wendy

    It sounds like selling the family house to move Jay is a major
    obstacle.  Have the parents considered enrolling him in a different
    school, perhaps a private or parochial school?  This is common in big
    cities, where kids in a given neighborhood may go to a number of
    different schools.
    
    Some schools offer special programs for problem kids.  Maybe a school
    with an extended day or a mandatory after-school program would help
    keep him off the streets until dinner.
    
    Tell them not to rule out parochial schools no matter what their
    religion or lack of it.  Many parochial schools are quite hospitable to
    kids from other backgrounds, and "Jay" is old enough to ignore the
    religion classes if they are irrelevant to him.
    
    Another option is to locate another family member out of town with whom
    "Jay" can live, and transfer his schooling to this new location.  If
    the problems are in any way due to communication difficulties with one
    or both parents, this MIGHT provide a solution, even if it is
    temporary.
    
    I would certainly urge them into family counselling.  Therapists today
    are quite adept at working with the whole family as a dynamic,
    interrelated system.  This is most helpful to minors who get only
    limited help from individual counselling.
    
    I would urge them to look at these options because they need help NOW. 
    The months it can take to sell the house may prove deadly to their son.
    
    L

Mary Lynn

Remember that this medium is notorious for portraying the wrong picture because
it is not immediately interactive.  And it isn't because people aren't good at
expressing themselves either, it's just that when they reply, they don't have
the opportunity to get your immediate feedback to realize that maybe they could
have chosen different, more sensitive words.

So, I doubt that anyone here thinks you a bad parent.  I don't even know what
a bad parent is ...  Yes we all lack some skills that might make us better
parents, but because every child and every parent is different, some families
get along remarkably well with limited parenting skills ... never saw Parents
magazine ... never heard of Dr Spock.  On the other hand other families still
fall apart with a lotof parenting skills.

I have often said our children should come with an installation guide.  The
trouble is that everyone would be different. :-)

Stuart

Mary-Lynn,

Neither did I have any intention of implying that and hope I did not give you
that impression.  I also don't think my sisters and brothers and sister's-in-law
who have had all thes problems with their teens are "bad" parents either.  That
is the whole point to this thing.  We're all amatuers as parents and we all go
through it the first time and you don't get a second chance.  I also admire
your strength to have worked so hard through all the pain and suffering and am 
glad that there is for you (as well as our anonymous problem teen) some light
at the end of the tunnel.  And I admire your courage to be able to stand up 
and say this and talk about it.

I think that what anonymous said about getting teens active and involved in
healthy activities is very important.  Let's face it, we all can't be there
all the time.  I have "latch key children" who fortunately seem to be able to
deal with the situation in a responsible way.  I call them after school every
day.  Dirk is good at involving himself in activities.  Mark I have to push a
bit.

I appreciate this discussion very much.

Cheryl

    Thank you all for all the information and experiences shared.  I will
    tell my brother about the book, it sounds like something they should
    read.  I may read it, my six year old is beginning to look like my lifes
    challenge.
    
    Mary-Lynn, thank you for sharing your story, I didn't think you were a
    bad parent.  Your love, admiration and strength for Sarah proved that
    your a "WONDERFUL CARING PARENT".  We all have to do what needs to be
    done to save a child, even if hurts, eventually it pays off.  I wonder if 
    Sarah and Jay knew each other at one point, Jay also lives in Manchester.
    How is Sarah doing now?
    
    As for Jay, his parents can't afford a private school, they are a one
    income family.  My sister-law chose to stay home with the children. 
    Their religion would absolutely not permit any type of other schooling.
    I don't want to go down a rat hole on religion, so I will I try to keep
    away from it.
    
    I have thought about taking Jay in, but I have a 16 year old son and
    fell I don't want to subject him to any bad habits his cousin has.  I
    fell terrible feeling that way, but it's a risk I just can't take.  My
    son is an honor student and in to sports, and has great friends.  I don't 
    know how to help my brother other than to pull our family together to 
    help them get through.
    
    Thank you all for sharing you experiences, concerns and advise. 
    Sometimes it's just helpful knowing that your not alone, other people
    have gone through the same thing or worse.
    
    Thanks,
    Carole

    
    
    
    

    I too don't judge people as bad parents.
    
    Sometimes I don't reply because its hard to find the words to express
    my feelings.  Sometimes, I just don't have time.
    
    I also think I tend to avoid replying in topics that I have no
    immediate experience in.  My daughter is 2-1/2, so that is somewhat
    limiting.
    
    And sometimes reading this stuff is frightening!  Just what am I in
    for?
    
    judy

    I thought of putting this in the string of notes that Lyn has recently
    started up again about AJ but don't want to distract from that
    discussion.
    
    My dear darling, pride and joy, the child I love and fear for, MArkus,
    age almost 13 is at it again.  He started playing with Marki this
    summer again.  Normally the two are not allowed to play together
    because they are nothing but trouble.  They seemed to have outgrown it
    (we thought!) but it all happened all over again.
    
    Yesterday, the neighbor came and said that Markus and Marki ha twice
    shot at him with BB guns.  Once was from our garden and the other time
    was when he was driving past their "base" in the the forest just below
    our houses.
    
    Furious (FURIOUS !!!!) doesn't even begin to describe my reaction.  My
    god, these two are 13 and 14 years old.  I went down to the forest and
    crawled around trying to find them (I think they were hiding).  When I
    was unsuccessful, I went and talked to Marki's mother.  Her major
    concern was that the guns didn't belong to Marki (big deal!!!, they
    SHOT at people!)  I then went back, sneaked up on the two and caught
    them.  I told them to get down here right now, WITH THE GUNS.  MArkus
    opened his mouth to deny he had them, I yelled at him, and there was no
    more argument.
    
    When I got hold of them, eventually with both guns (they'd tried to
    hide one), they BOTH got the tongue lashing of their life from me.
    
    Then I found out that MArkus had taken money AGAIN from my billfold to
    buy the damn things.  I already watch my purse like a hawk from
    previous episodes but I guess he is cleverer than I am.
    
    SO, help me, people, I can not come up with a punishment that satisfies
    me although Markus is willing to submit to anything by now.  This is
    what I have done so far:
    
    1. Markus and Marki may not even TALK to each other.  Markus is
    actually relieved by this one because no one wants to be with him when
    he is with Marki.  All his other friends are back now.  HArdly a
    punishment.
    
    2. I confiscated every single weapon of distruction and picture thereof
    in his possession.  The BB guns get destroyed.
    
    3. He will not be allowed to join the shooting society when he becomes
    13.  This is really a punishment since he was really looking forward to
    shooting real guns.
    
    4. No pocket money indefinitely, at least until he has paid back what
    he took from me and an amount corresponding to a fine.
    
    5. He voluntarily forgoes television.  I find this impossible to
    enforce in the longterm so I am not making a big deal out of it.
    
    6. He has gone to the neighbor and apologized and offered to help him
    with a chore of the neighbor's choosing.  He will fulfill this today.
    
    7. Probably the worst punishment for him of all was that I was so mad
    and upset that I started crying.  He was begging me to hit him and I
    said that he had hurt me enough, I wasn't going to hurt him.  I told
    him the story of my brother who got into bad company and was caught by
    the police.  Louie, my brother Jim's friend, ended up eventually with a
    drug habit and in prison.  Jim managed to turn his life around.  I said
    he has a choice now, he can either be like Louie or like Jim.
    
    I can now expect a week of perfect behaviour because he is always happy
    when he has been caught and he doesn't have to continue with this cloud
    of impending doom hanging over him.
    
    Anything else I can do?  I told him that if he isn't careful, the
    other parents will be telling their children that they are not allowed
    to associated with Markus.  He has discovered how true this is because,
    now that he can't be with Marki, all his friend's are back.
    
    I really really fear for this boy.  Give me the terrible twos any day!
    
    Cheryl

    Cheryl,
    
    I really can't give you any suggestions, but can say my family has been
    there...
    I have 2 younger brothers...and at the age of 15 they both took a real
    turn for the worse...(dropped out of school, constantly getting into
    trouble, hanging with the wrong people...)  My parents were at their
    wits end, everytime my 2 brothers got caught, the played stupid and
    acted like they didn't know what was going on...
    
    I can now say, its 5 years later, and the 2 have done a complete 180!
    Both are holding down good jobs, are slowly paying back the money my
    parents lent them to pay fines (driving w/out licenses, no
    registrations and a slue  of others)...  When I look at these 2, I
    really can't believe how much they have grown up.
    
    So, There is hope!  Stick to your guns! there is a light at the end of
    the tunnnel!
    
    Anne Marie
    

    Cheryl,
    
    As far as joining the shooting society, well maybe not let him join,
    but it sounds like this kid could use a serious course in gun safety. 
    It might be worthwhile to send him to a firearms safety course, or
    hunter's safety course to learn some other consequences of pointing any
    projectile launching item at people.
    
    Good luck, I know from experience that 13 year-olds aren't very
    civilized, but they do come out of it eventually.
    
    Meg

Cheryl, just a couple thoughts ...

>    2. I confiscated every single weapon of distruction and picture thereof
>    in his possession.  The BB guns get destroyed.

I'd make Markus destroy ALL of this stuff himself, in front of me

I'd also llimit his play with all the other friends ... since he seems
to appreciate them, although it sounds like he may take their friendship
somewhat for granted.

One thing that comes out in your note is that he is relieved to be caught and
punished ... to the point of offering up his own punishments.  It looks to
me that for some reason he is seeking attention and doing it in a pretty
unsocial way. (Why is it when most kids seek attention they go about it with
misbehaviour?)  If I were you, I'd be looking for reasons he would be
seeking attention.

Stuart

    Cheryl,
    
    I do feel every bit of emotion right along with you.  Good grief there
    are days when I swear kids will drive us to an early grave.  I think
    you handled the situation quite well under the circumstances.  But I do
    agree that he does need a course in gun safety, and IF and WHEN there
    is a gun of any kind back in the house again, keep it LOCKED and KEEP
    the KEY completely out of his site, infact in a place where he CAN NOT
    get at the key under ANY circumstances without your control!
    
    You also might consider making arrangements for him to visit a hospital
    and a patient who has a gun injury, I think a morgue visit might be a
    little much for his age.  Just to show what CAN and DOES happen with
    careless gun usage.  You local authorities are probably more than
    willing to assist you in these visits.
    
    Of course all this comes from the mother who lost her cool (no pun
    intended) when the freezer became warm, a la my charmin'child!
    
    Lyn
    

    Cheryl,
    
    How did he buy the guns?  If there is just a few gun shops around,
    perhaps think of bringing them into each of them, have HIM explain what
    he's done, and make sure that the owners know that under NO
    circumstances are they to sell a weapon to him.
    
    Perhaps counseling may be an option - to find out why he's seeking
    attention and to deal with him stealing money from you .... 
    
    Good Luck!

    Thanks to all of you for your suggestions and also your mail.
    
    First of all, regarding gun safety.  We don't own guns.  The only place
    for him to get such a course is in one of the official "stand de tir"
    or shooting societies.  In many he has to be Swiss, in the one he was
    going to join he must be 13.
    
    He bought the gun in a hobby shop and there is nothing illegal about
    selling BB pistols to children as long as they are not automatic.  In
    fact, you can buy most any kind of weapon you want here.  A couple of
    years ago there was a sign posted in the local bakery of someone
    selling machine guns, grenade launchers and light artillery.  I am not
    kidding.  Every able bodied Swiss citizen has an automatic rifle at
    home (from the army).
    
    The issue isn't so much the guns but the lying and stealing.  I think
    we were able to impress upon him the danger of shooting someone, even
    with a BB gun, when we pointed out that it could shock someone into
    driving off the road into a ravine.  The neighbor he shot at really
    gave him hell.
    
    A complication is that my cleaning lady seems to be stealing (BIG
    amounts) but it is difficult to separate this from Markus.  I will fire
    her, of course, even though I have no proof (but neither do I have any
    doubts, she is the only one who could have done it, including Markus).
    But it complicates everything.
    
    IT's a good thing I'm not working.
    
    Thanks for your suggestions.
    
    Cheryl

Cheryl,
	I would echo the call for a gun safety course. There is a lot of emphasis
in most of these courses on injuries and consequences of improper use of a
firearm. Second, I would sit him down with the local police department's youth
officer for a long discussion of the legal ramifications of his actions. The
lying and stealing are a big deal but the potential harm to both others and
his own future could be a good tool for avoiding future incidents. 

	While I agree with denying access to the other child involved I expect
that, ultimately, this may prove as difficult as the TV ban to enforce. I do
not agree with the reply limiting access to his other friends. At this age 
kids do a lot of things with other kids that, while sometimes not making a
whole lot of sense to adults, help avoid more serious problems. An idle child
usually finds a way to make mischief his friend.

    I spoke with Mark's school principal today who agrees that the shooting
    society would be a good idea.  However, since he can't join until he is
    13 in November, for the moment he is being punished with the removal of
    all gun related paraphernalia.  I can only hope that in this club they
    teach them all about safety, etc. which I suspect is the case.  Don't
    forget, I live in Switzerland.  We do not have "youth officers" and
    open community courses or such things.  If you want to do an activity,
    you have to join a local society and pay your fees and many of these
    are closed to foreigners.
    
    I encourage his playing with the good influences in the neighborhood. 
    It is a very good education in what his peers find as acceptable
    behaviour.  They obviously don't find Marki, the other boy, acceptable
    and Markus needs to learn this.  At his age, peer pressure is much more
    important than what we parents say so the last thing I am going to do
    is remove good influences and having him sit around and get bored and
    then up to more mischief.
    
    There is no problem enforcing the ban on his playing with Marki.  For
    one thing, they are in different schools so they have now less
    occassion to socialise since school has started.  Secondly, they both
    realise how much trouble they've gotten into.  I doubt either of them
    will even LOOK at each other for a long time to come.
    
    Thanks for all your thoughts.  I love this chance to learn through all
    the ideas in this file.
    
    Cheryl

Cheryl,
	Most societies and clubs have some kind of structure. I would expect that
there might be some kind of officer (president type not police type) whom you
could sit down with between now and November and reassure yourself that the 
"right" things are being taught.

Mike

    Mike,
    
    YEs, of course we will investigate the society beforehand to see how it
    all works.  These groups are typically very serious and correct.  It is
    the means by which the country socialises its youth, whether it be
    through the local marching band, football team, or whatever.  But you
    must be a member, you don't just go along and "do it".  And also, they
    are not open always to just anybody.  Dirk had to work very hard to be
    allowed on the basketball team.
    
    Cheryl

    How about some steps forward?  Mine are still little, but I would love
    specifics on how to prevent or circumbent problem teens.  THe stories
    posted are incredibly helpful, in probing the issues and demonstrating
    the positive outcomes, and I thank you all for them.  
    
    How do we keep our kids growing up good?  What age should team sports
    begin?  do we encourage parties and friends over at our own homes? 
    What are the first signs, even those seen in retrospect that may have
    been missed?  How do we guarantee a continued interest through the
    onslaught of puberty (a horrifying period as I remember)?  How do we
    help ourselves get over the fears induced from our less than perfect
    transition periods?
    
    Hopefully,
    Adrienne
    

	Always emphasize the values you want to instill in your child. They
won't always agree and they'll often test the limits and consequences but in
the end they'll know right from wrong and thier own limitations.

	Don't go banannas with every mistake. Make sure the mistakes are noted
and consequences realized but if your child does something you didn't approve
of the only thing you can do beyond the above is voice your disapproval and
raise the consequences for future occurances.

	Communicate with your child. This is the greatest tool between a parent
and a teenager. Let them know where you stand on controversial issues that are
facing them or may face them in the future. Don't be afraid to let them disagree.
Listen to their point of view and be prepared to back yours(sort of like
a private SOAPBOX!).

	Communicate with other parents. The most often heard retort of the 
teenager is "everybody else .... does it, wears it, etc.". The "you're not
everybody else" line doesn't cut it. If the child proves, through your
discussion with other parents you respect, that you're out to lunch then
you have to big enough to back off but if those other parents agree with you
then you have to hold your ground. 

	Get involved with your child. Teenagers, while they are teenagers, will
profess loudly and publicly that they want nothing to do with their parents. 
Don't let this intimidate you into submission. Volunteer at school or in other
community activities that your child is involved with. That doesn't mean you
have to be joined at the hip. It simply shows the child that you're supporting
the things that are important to them (and at the same time making sure you're
comfortable that they meet your criteria for activities you want your child
involved in).

	Treat them with respect and they will respect you.

>>  <<< Note 431.34 by FSDEV::MGILBERT "Education Reform starts at home...." >>>


Good comments; I'd add this also:

Don't be a do as I say, not as I do type parent - if you expect them to 
behave a certain way, make sure that you also strive to behave along the
same standards.

Leslie

    In regards to sports.  I believe that is beneficial to keep them very
    active in sports, and to start at a young age.  My son started soccer
    at 5, baseball at 7 and eighth grade school football this year. He will
    also play basketball, and football for fun with the kids in the 
    neighborhood.  It has kept him so busy that he hasn't had the time to get 
    into much trouble.  I think the problem with teenagers now is that they 
    have too much idle time on their hands.  As a parent I want to know where 
    he is going, and what time he will be home.  I see too many of his friends
    parents let their kids wander around town, and then call my house at 9 p.m.
    and ask if I have seen their son.  They haven't seen him since 9 a.m. that 
    morning.  I agree with the previous note which says to get involved
    with school, so that they know you are interested.  The same goes with
    the sports also.  If you can coach or help with practice's all the
    better.  Or at least make sure that someone is at their games all the
    time.  Too many parents use it as a babysitting service.  I thank God
    that my son has turned out as well as he has.  When I read the paper,
    and see the news on what teenagers are doing these days I get a sick feeling
    in my stomach.  I hope that everything goes as well for the next 5 years.
    
    Cheryl

    I think getting kids involved in something they are interested
    in (sports, arts (drawing, pottery, ballet), gymnastics, etc.)
    has an added bonus than to just keep them busy..it gives them 
    something else to feel good about themselves for.  
    
    They may not start out being very good at it, but if they *want*
    to become better, they will *work* at it (important lesson in life
    there), and reach a level where they're recognized for their
    ability (if not their tenacity), which feeds their self-confidence.
    
    And I believe that a child's self-confidence may be the single most
    trait that protects them from succumbing to peer pressure (drugs, sex, 
    alcohol, etc.).
    
    Noranne
    (single mother of a 15 year old baseball/softball player daughter)
    
    

   I agree that outside activities (be it sports, music, art, or other) are
   important to give the child/teen other areas of interest and positive
   experiences.  But how do you arrange for such activities when you're a
   single working parent or a family where both parents work ??  How do you
   manage to get the kid(s) to softball practice or music lesson or such ??????


   Debbi J

re: .38

It can be a pain, but look into it before you assume you can't do it.  It 
also makes a difference if you have some flexibility at work -- for example 
if it doesn't matter to your boss if you come in early and leave early.

Some suggestions, though.  You can see if you can take turns with another 
working parent for transportation; that way you don't have to do it as 
often. You can see if there is another parent who could give your child a 
ride there if you can pick them up.  There are some activities that are 
coached, taught, or led by working parent volunteers that may start at a time 
that you can make.  For example, when I coached soccer, I didn't start 
practice until 5:15 because that was the earliest _I_ could make it there.  
Also, especially if you are talking about teens, they can assist you in 
finding transportation.  If it is something that they WANT to do, they can be 
very, very, resourceful.  (Of course, if it's something that they don't want 
to do, they can be absolutely helpless).

Clay

With younger kids it's very difficult these days to juggle things so you can 
get them to their activities. I would be inclined to look for things that occur
at or close by the school and are somewhat affiliated with school. Most school
systems do supply a late bus for transporting kids who stay after for help or
extra-curricular activities. Music lesson are often given in your home instead
of having you take the child somewhere. 

As the kids get older they can start "transporting" themselves to some things
by walking or arranging their own rides with friend's parents. I'm beginning
to find the tough age is around 15-16 as you, the parent, have to begin to 
assess which "friends" you feel comfortable with your child getting in a
car with. As children progress into middle and high schools more and more of
the activities are at night and, at least in my community, many of the younger 
kids activities occur on weekend mornings (I cursed the soccer association
for a long time for those 8:00am Saturday games).

    Activities don't always have to involve transportation to be
    engrossing and satisfying.  When I was a pre-teen and teen, I had a number 
    of very satisfying hobbies, and most of my hobbies were things I
    could do by myself or with my father or with a local friend or two at 
    home or in walking distance.  My mom always said I was an unusually easily 
    amused little boy, though.  :-)   I used to practice magic tricks,
    collect things, build models, read, and even did sports that didn't
    require a team or a field, like backyard wrestling and doing
    solo karate drills that I'd pick up from a local instructor.
    
    With all that stuff that I loved to do, I always wondered why other
    kids wasted all their valuable leisure time running around to classes and 
    ball fields and such.  ;-)
    
    							todd

    For us, it meant coming in one day a week late (I had the morning car
    pool one day/week.) and then picking Lolita up after X-country
    practice in the evenings.  After a few weeks and a few x-c meets I 
    met other parents in the same boat and we were able to "adopt" each 
    other's children for the meets and practices.  I have one of 
    my daughter's friends who still calls me mom and Lolita refers to
    Michelles mom as "mom" also ;-).
    
    Check around.  The Jr. High nearest us has an inter-generational center
    which has after school activities for all ages and it is within walking
    distance.  Also your local Park and Rec centers may have something. 
    The Boy's/Girl's Club in the area may have a bus which picks up kids at
    their respective schools to attend their activities as well.
    
    Meg    

This note is being entered for a member of our community who wishes to
remain anonymous.  For the purpose of this string, this noter's pseudonym
will be "Auntie".

      Carol duBois, PARENTING co-moderator

********************************************************

I apologize for the length of this note.

I'm hoping you folks can offer some advice for getting along with 
a 15 year old niece if I take custody of her.  I love this child, 
I just have doubts about being able to handle her at this stage of 
her life.  She doesn't like living by rules.

First a little about me:

I'm 32, no kids, am happily married (a little over 2 years), have a 
fairly stable job (as stable as you can be in digital), and my husband 
works for another company in a stable job.  Five months ago I went off 
birthcontrol and am trying to get pregnant, nothing yet.

A little info about my niece, Alice:

She just turned 15.  She has what I refer to as a jeckle/hyde personality.
When she's good, she's very good, when she's mad she's a monster (to even 
more a degree than most kids I've been exposed to).  It has been 
established that her sister, 1 year older, was sexually abused by a baby-
sitter's boyfriend when she was around 3 or 4 years old, it is possible/ 
probable that Alice was abused as well but she doesn't remember it.

The problem:

My sister cannot handle my niece.  She has asked me to take temporary 
custody.  The trouble that led to this started around two years ago.  My 
oldest niece started having memories of the abuse and talked about it 
to my sister, my sister and she started going to counseling to try to 
help them deal with it.  Alice wasn't told why her older sister was 
going to counseling, but got a general idea.  She started plying her 
sister with questions but the counselor said it would be best for Alice 
to remember what happened on her own and asked the older girl not to give 
her any information.  

[At the time the abuse happened my sister was working nights and drinking 
heavily after work.  Even if there were signs of this abuse she 
probably wouldn't have recognized it because she was involved with 
her own problems (she was also pregnant with child number 3).]

About a month after the counseling began my sister decided to file 
for divorce from her husband (my nieces step-father, my sister and 
their father were divorced when the girls were around 3 and 4) this 
divorce is coincidental to the abuse counseling.  My niece was upset 
because at least the step-father who really didn't want to spend very 
much time around them would buy them nice shoes/clothes etc (though he 
couldn't afford to), this is what her mother said she said, I have to 
take it with a grain of salt.

Shortly after my brother-in-law moved out she took up with someone new.
He moved in around the beginning of '93.  At the time he moved in he 
was under investigation for sexually abusing his nephew and his son. 
My sister said that he didn't do it, his ex-wife and ex-wife to be 
were just trying to set him up, it was really his ex-brother-inlaw (the 
nephews father) who did it.  He has 4 children who hate him, they're 
age 8 - 17.  He says it's their mother who turned them against him.

In Sept. '92 my sister's friend told Alice to do something, Alice refused 
to do it.  He told her to go to her room, she said no.  He then grabbed 
her by her shoulders, picked her up and took her to her room and left 
her there (my sister told me this).  She went out the window to the 
neighbor's house and the neighbor's reported my sister for child abuse 
(she wasn't there at the time).  My niece went into a group home, where 
she stayed for several months. Around Feb. she came home, was home for 
a week and ran away, she was put into another group home.   In June or 
July she was allowed to go home, she and a friend took off with some boys 
in a van and she came home 2 days later.  She is currently in another group 
home.

October 18 my sister is to appear in court and the court will 
probably put Alice in state care (Connecticut) or a relatives
custody (me).  Her father is a non-functional alcoholic who has told 
the court (in writing, he lives in the south) that he is unable to 
care for the child and does not want custody.  My niece, of course, 
wants to live with her father.

I really would like my niece to live with me, I feel I can give her a 
stable home life, the love and attention she needs, and help her self-
esteem.  I'm just really nervous about the whole thing.  Alice is a 
smart girl, she seems to be self-absorbed right now (very much like her 
mother at this age), I just want to be able to help her straighten out 
her life without risking my sanity or marriage (my husband is completely 
supportive of me, and this niece is his favorite, he hasn't seen her 
"hyde" side first hand).

Any words of wisdom?

Just call me "Auntie"

    
         Sounds so sad for these children. Even though the girl doesn't
    remember the abuse there a strong chance that she was abused. Her
    sister is remembering and she may suddenly remember. I would say the
    bad side of her is from the trauma of the abuse. If you want to take
    in these child I would say "Do it!" She desperately needs someone
    to love and care for her. 
    
         I do have to say though that it could be a roller coaster. If
    she was sexually abused she has a lot of trust issues, a lot of
    pain that she may not even realize. I was sexually abused as a child.
    It stopped when I was 12, but I can tell you my teenage years were
    a nightmare. There were times I didn't care about anyone. I did
    terrible things just to dare someone to punish me or make me stop.
    Unfortunately for me my mother just thought of me as a stubborn
    teenage brat, not a confused hurt child. At this very moment I wonder
    how I survived it. I only really started dealing with it the past
    couple of years when I hit bottom. I did something stupid and realized
    I desparately needed help before I destroyed myself. 
    
         I got out of the bad stuff in my 20's but lived a live of inner
    hell. To most people, actually everyone I knew, I had an air of 
    being normal. Inside I was crying.
    
    
         In fact several months ago I got into a conversation with someone
    about perception. I asked him what his persception of me was and
    he told me that his perseption was that I was somewhat of a joker. A
    person who didn't seem to care of worry about anything. He said he
    thought of me as a nice person but not serious enough. In my
    recovery I realized that this was an air that I had. I didn't want any
    one to know I was hurting. 
    
         I wish the best for these children and hope that with love they
    get to grow into adults with the knowledge that what happened to them
    wasn't their fault. It was the perpertrator's fault. They were children
    and not guilty. I carried a lot of guilt for many years. 
    
       Take care,
    
        Rose Marchand

	At 15 your niece is old enough to be dealt with in an adult manner. You
and your husband should sit down with Alice and let her know that you care about
her and will give her all the support you can. You also need to agree together on
what the rules are. A different environment may well be what this young lady 
needs right now. You stated that your sister and Alice's older sister were seeing
a counselor. Is Alice also? If not it may be a good idea for her to at least
get some of the hostility out in the open. It sounds from your note that there
may be resentment toward her mother and sister because the older one is getting
an inordinate amount of mom's time. When there are 2 parents to share the burden
it's still tough to balance your kids. I can't imagine what happens when you're
the only adult with a couple of teenagers. You should also let this young lady 
know that if this arrangement fails she's likely to end up in the care of the
state.

This note is being entered by a noter who wishes to remain anonymous at
this time.  It is a reply to "Auntie" in .43.

     Carol duBois, PARENTING Co-moderator

************************************************************************

	The note in .43 sounds VERY similar to what happened in our 
	family just a year ago with my own niece.  I'll try to briefly 
	describe the background...

	My sister has four children.  After 14 year of being married 
	to a husband who was immature and verbally abusive, she went 
    	through a long, and nasty divorce.  Much to her credit, she 
    	returned to school full-time, got her bachelor's degree, and 
    	landed a stable job.

	Unfortunately, while my sister was away at school, work, and finding 
	a new social life, a lot of the parental responsibility fell to my 
	niece, the oldest of the four.  In addition to becoming a second 
	mother at 14, she also had a very hot/cold relationship with her 
	father (favorite one visit, verbal abuse the next).  Add to that, 
	she was apparently raped by some neighbor boys she had become 
	friends with while visiting a relative.  

	About a year ago, she started doing exactly what your niece is 
	doing...  She began drinking (although none of us realized how 
	much) and running away.  A couple of times, friends would pick 
	her up, and she'd disappear for the entire weekend.  This disrupted 
	the family so much, that my sister was looking for ANY OPTION to 
	calm things down (btw... both sister and niece had been to 
	counseling during, and after the divorce, as well as after the 
	troubles began).

	This was also my favorite niece.  So, my husband and I ALSO 
	considered taking her in.  However, we had a new baby, and were 
	having enough difficulty adjusting to our new finances, schedules 
	and priorities.  

	She moved in with my uncle instead (mother's brother), who was 
	a single parent, with one son still in high school.  She would 
	be close (in the next town), and most of the people there know 
	my uncle, since he teaches in the high school.  This was a very 
	stable and loving environment, with an adult who could be home 
	when she was.  At first, this seemed like the ideal solution.

	Until my niece decided to act up there...  It didn't take long 
	for my niece to start telling everyone at the school about her 
	wild escapades.  My cousin (uncle's son) is a good student, and 
	is active in sports.  I think he started to be embarrassed to be 
	associated with this girl who had gotten so "wild".  On top 
	of that, my niece stopped returning to my sister's for weekends, 
    	saying that if she really wanted her around, she wouldn't have 
	farmed her out.

	The final straw came with my niece asked if she could go out 
	with some friends one night.  My uncle said "no", but she went 
	anyway, and didn't come back until way past curfew.  After that, 
	my uncle decided it was disrupting his home life way too much.

	The story DOES have a happy ending...  A friend of my mother's 
	is an ex-alchoholic, who offered to take my niece in for a while.  
	Since this woman went through the same types of behavior that my 
	niece was going through (ran away permanently at age 14), there 
	really wasn't much my niece could pull over on her.  In addition, 
	the woman worked cleaning houses.  So, whenever my niece wasn't 
	at school, she was expected to tag along.  

	Somehow, this seems to have worked.  My niece's grades are back 
	up, she's even started coordinating teen AA meetings in her 
	neighborhood, and has decided (after cleaning lots of houses) 
	that she definitely wants to go to college.  Things aren't 
    	perfect, but they continue to get better.

	All I can say is "GOOD LUCK".  Make sure you go into this with 
	your eyes wide open, know where your niece is at all times, keep 
    	her busy, and don't expect her to change overnight, just because 
    	you have a warm-loving household.  Most of all, make sure you 
    	keep reminding her how much she means to you, and that you WANT 
    	to have her around.  

    	I really don't have any good "answers", but can only share the 
    	experience my sister had.  It may turn out that, just like mine, 
    	your niece just needs to find a "good fit".  

I'd like some advice from other parents!...

Some info:
17 year old female, honor roll
no smoking, drugs or alcohol

so you ask why I need help?  :-)

I know that she is angry over alot of things:
1) I was married last fall,  we had been alone for a long time
2) I have changed and perhaps she resents it...
I have changed the way I handle my money (hopefully for
 the better)
and I have also changed the way I eat. (also hopefully for 
the better).
3) I was pregnant (I recently miscarried) and Im sure she
was jealous.

So I know and understand these issues.  She is in therapy for
herself and also in a group therapy.  I know she is dealing
with alot of issues.  She was molested at 14.
I have also a prefessional therapist that I speak with as well.

I do understand and try to be patient, but around the home
is like a war zone.  She calls me names, argues contantly and
its been very stressful for me and my hubby.

Any tips?  Leave her alone?  Dont speak with her unless she
can be civil??

Any suggestions would be helpful.  I feel that I am providing
her with all the professional help and support that I can but it seems 
that she is working on her issues only and not caring about the people
that love her the most!!!

Thanks for reading,  Judy

    Hi Judy,
    
    First, let me say that I'm sorry for your miscarriage loss and the
    trouble that you're having with your teenager..   
    
    I don't have a teenager so I don't have first-hand advice.  However,
    I did wonder on reading your note, if your daughter still gets 
    one-on-one time with you now that you've remarried?   If not, would
    it be possible to carve out some time to spend with her - not as a
    family?    Perhaps she needs a demonstration that she is still 
    important in your life..
    
    Best wishes!
    
    Carol

    Might be time to call a family meeting with one of the
    therapists present or both.
    
    Anger seems like a reasonable response to all she is
    facing.  Dumping the anger on you does not seem
    reasonable or acceptable.
    
    Family therapy sessions would focus on the dynamics
    and how each person in the "system" gets his/her
    needs met.
    
    Family therapy sessions can be set up in various
    ways so as to integrate the rest of the therapeutic
    work being done.
    
    Wishing you the best.  Being 17 can be tough.
    Living with one who is 17 can be tough too.
    
    Dolores

    
    One more thought.  Sometimes in a "family system"
    one person carries all the anger for the system.
    This "role" limits the person to deal with his/her
    own issues.  The role also STOPS others from 
    feeling their own anger.  It can be a protection
    for the family, in a sense.
    
    Again, the *dynamics* of the entire family system
    are important.
    
    Family therapy can be very powerful and effective.
    
    Dolores

    I have survived one teenager (and she survived me) but 17 is a rough
    year, come to think of it fneither was 15 or 16.  Neither Frank nor I
    could do anything right during that time, until she started making
    plans for college.  
    
    Things to be angry about?  Only child until the age of 11 1/2, when
    Carrie was born.  Again we had been pretty much together against the
    world until Frank became a full-time fixture.  "He is not my dad, nor
    should he live in this house!  I don't care if that brat is his kid! 
    Why did you have to go and get pregnant anyway?"  Not to mention the
    criticism of having a house always in some state of remodeling, (we
    still do that)  "how can I invite anyone over?" , the fact that we are
    counter-culture types and her boyfriend at 16 came from a leading
    conservative in town, and welll, "just everything!"  
    
    We did get through it, although the household would get pretty noisy at
    times.  When I found out I was pregnant with Atlehi, as Lolita was
    heading off to college, she was actually pleased, although it was, "gee
    mom, some of my friends are making their parents grandmas, and your
    still having kids instead."  Over the years, I have either gotten
    "smarter" or she and I are more tolerant of each other.  She actually
    calls me for advice now.  She is also almost 23.  
    
    Good luck.  I left home when I was 16, sparing my parents the 17's. 
    Although it sounds like you have a pretty level-headed kid.  
    
    meg

    
    Just a few cents...
    I think spending some time alone with your daughter is very important.
    I understand how busy your life has been, however, it may be helpful
    to set aside a few hours a week to do things with her and be a friend,
    not just a mother. You may want to talk to her about your life, your
    problems, as she needs to learn from you about life as well. Maybe once
    she realizes how difficult/stressful a situation you are in, she may come
    to understand you better and let go of her anger. Be very honest about
    yourself and your feelings, don't be afraid. Try to listen to her
    feelings/disappointments/whatnot without judgement and tell her you
    understand. Maybe all she needs to know is that you are still the same
    you and you still love her very much and be there for her no matter what 
    (new husband/baby/whatnot).  
    
    Eva

Thanks for all your replies.  My daughter and I have 'girls nite out'
scheduled every week.  Sometimes its girls-nite-in since I dont
feel that we need to spend money to be together....

We have had one family session with her therapist.  Im hoping 
that insight will help.
Tho the therapist did tell me that she only wanted to work with 
my daughter on one issue at at time which was the abuse...
she did say kind of that the family stuff would take a second seat...
I have been angry that the household suffers as Lauren goes
thru her own pain.

Thanks again.  Judy

Judy,

>17 year old female, honor roll
>no smoking, drugs or alcohol

Mine's 16.

The previous notes about spending time with your daughter are very good,
I just want to give a little different perspective.

My daughter really supported the idea of me "having a life" and dating,
but now that the reality is here, she's really uncomfortable with it.
She's also feeling very stressed by school, college choices, etc etc., 
so she's ambivalent about decisions, and has shown lots of uncharacteristic
irrationality in recent weeks. 

This seems to center on how much any woman I date is going to be around the
house. My daughter's attitude is that the household belongs to her and me,
so anyone else better keep their distance.

Here's what I'm getting at: you haven't mentioned how your daughter feels about
your husband, his introduction into the family, and how they relate.  Clearly,
yours is a different situation, but that's more the issue in my house. To give
a couple extreme examples, does your husband give your daughter orders, or
does he always step aside for you to deal with any issues? 

-Steve

Steve, thanks for your note..

My daughter gets along with my husband,  but if he wasnt
there she would be very happy.  I am the one that speaks with
her most of the time, discipline too.  However there are issues that
I seek out my husband before making a decison.  She doesnt
seem to like that at all.
For example, when we talk about college its a family discussion
not just a discussion with her and I because the decisions that we 
make also affect my husband.  Other decisions like curfew etc
are set by myself.   Of course I discuss these items with my
husband but  behind the scenes,  so to speak.
Of course when Im not home, he does speak to her if there
is something like her chores not being done.

One large issue that I havent mentionned is that she does not
consider us a family.  She considers her and I a family.
This makes me very angry because I feel that she needs to
accept that I am married and that we need to live together and
that her being unable to view us as a family is a large problem
to how we both are treated by her.
My husband knows and doesnt try to be her father but he is 
a parent and my daughter needs to grow up!

(sorry for the vent)

Thanks for reading, Judy

    
    Judy,
    
    	I certainly understand your desire to have your daughter accept
    your husband as part of the family. However, speaking for myself,
    when I was 17, I wasn't mature enough to see the big picture. A
    17 year old has an adult body, an adult stubborness and know-all
    attitude, but isn't quite adult in emotional and life issues. As
    adults, you and I can behave rationally, based on knowledge and
    experience. But a 17 year old still has a long way to grow beyond
    the self-centered view of things. It took me many years of marriage 
    and motherhood to understand my own parents. It must be frustrating 
    for you, as you view those recent life changes as positive (you know
    that because you've had enough experience) and your daughter isn't
    quite as excited about the changes (she doesn't have enough experience
    to know that). This is all new to her and sometimes the unknown is
    fearful and stressful. I think my point is it will take time for your
    daughter to learn about this change and to appreciate it. It sure is
    hair pulling madness right now, but if you can see her difficulty
    and not get angry at her (though you want her to know how hurtful you
    feel by her comments), maybe she'll grow up at her own pace.
    
    Best wishes.
    
    Eva

I am going to play the black sheep at the party here ... and I hope
that you do not take offense ... it is not meant to be offensive... although it
is difficult to discuss things which are clearly very personal without
sometimes touching some exposed nerves ...

>One large issue that I havent mentionned is that she does not
>consider us a family.  She considers her and I a family.

Sorry ... she's right ... You married your new husband ... she didn't
take a new "dad".  It's a complex situation ... blending families ...
but the bottom line is that just because you and your new husband are
a new family, and you and your daughter is the old family does NOT make
for one instant new larger family.  Her reaction is that this is something 
*you have to solve ... not her ... because <You> created this situation ... 
not her.*  And to be honest, it's a very logical stand.

Now, the fact that there are in essence 2 failies living under one roof
with some intricate financial and social obligations is making things
even more complex.  I think that if you work at it from her perspective 
and *show that you are doing so* will help a lot.

You must accept that she doesn't feel this new "family" and your insistence
that she must accept it is a major root of problems.  You are in essence
telling her what to "feel", and forcing her to deny her own feelings about
this situation.

>This makes me very angry because I feel that she needs to
>accept that I am married and that we need to live together and
>that her being unable to view us as a family is a large problem
>to how we both are treated by her.

Concentrate on the "all living together" aspect rather than the "family"
aspect ... "family" is too much an emotionally loaded concept.

>My husband knows and doesnt try to be her father but he is 
>a parent and my daughter needs to grow up!

Your daughter is probably growing up just fine ... it's just that
anyone will rebel against being forced into a situation that they
had no control over and to be told that they must feel OK about it.
Wouldn't you ?

Where to go from here ... Your new husband to your daughter feels probably
more like a landlord with some control over the household finances too ..
well accept that's how she feels and work with that.

Hope this makes sense ...

Stuart

    Stuart, that's *exactly* how I felt about my stepfather, and I also
    felt that I was being expected to "grow up" a lot faster so that I
    could move on out and cease being an irritant to *their* relationship.
    
    Hindsight is 20/20, so I now see how one-sided those feelings were. 
    They incorporated more than a few grains of truth, though, and as you
    pointed out, feelings can't be legislated away.
    
    Leslie

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>I'd like some advice from other parents!...
>
>Some info:
>17 year old female, honor roll
>no smoking, drugs or alcohol
>
>so you ask why I need help?  :-)
>
>I know that she is angry over alot of things:
>1) I was married last fall,  we had been alone for a long time
    
        Congratulations! As for the daughter, maybe she just needs more
    time to 'accept' the situation. I know how much a mother would want
    her children to love her knew husband , but love and trust take
    time. If she's 'pushed' into anything like this and not ready for 
    it, then she may push away and be angrier. Emotions and feelings for
    another person sometimes takes time. You may have fallen in love
    with him, but she doesn't really have to. She doesn't even have to
    like him if she can't. He may need to back off a bit until she's
    accepted him.
    
>2) I have changed and perhaps she resents it...
>I have changed the way I handle my money (hopefully for
> the better)
    
        I know for me that change is difficult, I've learned that in group,
    when we change others have to 'adjust' to us. We need to adjust to
    ourselves, but other will notice also. She may resent it, but with
    time she'll adjust.
    
>and I have also changed the way I eat. (also hopefully for 
>the better).
>3) I was pregnant (I recently miscarried) and Im sure she
>was jealous.
>
        Either she was jealous of the new baby coming, she may have felt
    that you were going to throw her away when that baby came. Or she is
    so sad that you lost the baby, maybe she somehow feels responsible?
    Maybe not, just a suggestion. Also, I don't know how you divorced her
    dad, did she feel responsible for that? Sometimes we get it in our
    heads that we can 'control' others and what happens to them. Of course
    this is another suggestion, not what may be happening here.
    
>So I know and understand these issues.  She is in therapy for
>herself and also in a group therapy.  I know she is dealing
>with alot of issues.  She was molested at 14.
>I have also a prefessional therapist that I speak with as well.
>
         Being molested is a BIG issue. It creates a lot of distrust and
    other issues that a person has a tough time dealing with. This may also
    be in part why she's having a hard time excepting a new man in the 
    home,, that is if it was a man that molested her. She may be afraid
    to 'trust' him and worry that if she does he'll hurt her. Especially
    if the molestation was by someone she trusted and loved dearly. The
    betrayal from that person is enormous. I know, my god-father sexually
    abused me and it created a lot of problems for me.
       
        Just a suggestion, if you want any info. on how to deal with a
    loved one who has been sexually abused, the rape crisis center can
    be of help. Also, I can't think of any titles at the moment, but there
    are books on how to 'support' a loved one who has been molested. 
    
>I do understand and try to be patient, but around the home
>is like a war zone.  She calls me names, argues contantly and
>its been very stressful for me and my hubby.
>
>Any tips?  Leave her alone?  Dont speak with her unless she
>can be civil??
>
        I wouldn't totally leave her alone, but I wouldn't keep pressuring
    her all the time either. Maybe sit back and take a look at the fights
    and see how they start and how they move along. Someone pushes a
    button, we set up our family buttons and then we use them
    subconsiously. Are you so hopefull that she will love your husband that
    you start in on her about it when the situation isn't really a good one
    at the time? Like are the 3 of you sitting at the table and you bring
    up her problems? It's tough, trying to find the right time for this or
    that. 
    
>Any suggestions would be helpful.  I feel that I am providing
>her with all the professional help and support that I can but it seems 
>that she is working on her issues only and not caring about the people
>that love her the most!!!
>
>Thanks for reading,  Judy
>
    
    
        Judy, that may be all you can do right now. Work your issues, she
    works hers, and keep with the professionals! Problems don't go away
    overnight,, but it sounds like your on the right track with discussing
    them and looking for solutions!
    
        Rosie 

Thanks for all your input.  Stuart your comments were taken as
constructive criticism, no offense taken from me.

I will take your advice and the advice of the others and concentrate
on how we all get along and not get into the 'family'.  I can see that
she is not going to accept him as a parent, tho I am not going to give
in and exclude him from major discussions that affect his life.

Ill try to remember to post an update as time goes by.

Thanks again,  Judy

    She may well end up taking him on as a "parent" in due course ... but
    your insistence that he is will force the issue against that goal.
    
    There is nothing wrong with including your new husband in the
    discussions that affect how you all live under one roof, nor on how
    things that require money for your daughter are impacting him ...
    
    Define those things to your daughter ...
    
    e.g. 
    
    He has to been involved in financial planning for your college,
    because it is going to impact all of us.
    
    When you define these things is *real* terms ... e.g. things of direct
    impact ... your daughter should follow the logic.  Right now she
    probably sees things as "new dad" trying to control daughter through
    you, and *you* are letting him!
    
    
    The comment somebody made about feeling they are being "forced to grow
    up" is a very valid thing ... although another possibility is a feeling
    of "eviction".
    
    My mother remarried when I was 22 or 3 ... The family home had been my
    base until then.  When my mother remarried, she moved to a our step
    father's house and while we were told that their house was now our home, 
    I could NOT feel comfortable there ...  I lived in our "new home" for 
    only 2 nights.  I liked my step father ... but I could not abide
    living in *his* home.  It was absolutely not *my* home.  Only now 20
    odd years later, do I start to feel comfortable in *his* home ... you
    see it still has very little of our family character in it ... it
    clings to his way of the world ... not even my mother's!
    
    I found my own rooms after that and have never *lived* in that house
    since.  I felt for the *longest* time that I had been evicted from *my*
    home, and I deeply resented that ... even as old as 22 ... it was the
    one stable thing in my life that I could always find a mooring tether
    there.
    
    Losing that tether was a real blow ... It was a period when I relied
    on friends to the point it was amazing they didn't shoo me away!
    
    My mother accepted my departure uncomfortably well ...  There was no
    attempt to help me to fit in ... That hurt ...
    
    No doubt ... it's a tough time ... but please remember, you went into
    this willingly ... She's being dragged along for the ride, like it or
    not!  I think when you and your new husband acknowledge this to her and
    indicate that you want her input to help solve some of the problems it
    is creating, it will help.
    
    Another important thing to remember is that it really will help to find
    consensual solutions to problems, rather than compromises.  In a
    compromise, both parties win a little bit, but both lose too!  In a 
    consensual solution (which often requires a lot more creativity) both
    parties provide ideas towards a solution that minimizes the loss from
    compromise, and hopefully produces a true win-win solution.
    
    Sometimes the solution is not in solving the problem immediately in
    front of you ... sometimes it's something else.  For example, your
    child wants you to buy something for him.
    
    You don't want to buy this for him ... you don't like the thing and
    he hasn't helped around the house for weeks ... so you do the normal
    thing and offer a compromise "I'll get X if you do Y"  Well ... you've
    lost because you still bought him X and he's lost because he had to do
    Y to get it.
    
    What's the win-win answer ... Explore other things he wants that maybe
    you would prefer and that he prefers.  Sure, Y may not get done, but
    he may be more amenable to doing Y after getting Z with a simple "Would
    you please do Y ?, without tying it to the purchase of anything!  Now
    you are both happier, and nobody has lost.
    
    Stuart

    
    Judy,
    
    	Maybe one way to help the situation is to let your daughter
    see how caring and respectable your husband is. For example, if
    you and your husband come up with a decision that affects her, 
    try to explain to your daughter how that came about, what are the 
    tradeoffs, what are the pros and cons. I think a 17 year old can
    follow logic and rationale. If she can see that you and your husband
    have her well being in mind, she can rest a bit easier. Maybe your
    daughter will never see him as a "parent", but seeing him as a very
    good friend, a wise man and a mentor may be just as endearing.
    
    
    Eva 

    Speaking as a stepmom of eight years, the best thing you can do is to
    continue to be supportive of your daughter AND also show her that you
    and your husband are a unified couple.  You and your new husband are
    responsible for parental decisions that will affect the new step
    family.
    It sounds like your daughter is trying to see what the limits are in
    terms of how much of her hurtful behavior you will take.
    I do not think it is fair for anyone to deliberately hurt anyone else. 
    If she is upset she needs to deal with it - with your help of course,
    but it is no excuse and it doesn't give her carte blanche for her to be
    rude to you.  Sorry, other people may think she is justified, however I
    think that part of growing up is learning to deal with feelings and 
    emotions.
    I became a stepmom when the kids were 5 and 6.  They wanted their mom
    and dad to get back together - their mom gave them the power to drive
    out their stepdad, however my husband and I saw the situation for what
    it was and let them know that we were (are) a couple.
    Second marriages have a higher rate of divorce than first marriages
    and the stresses your step family are going through are one of the
    reasons for this.  The process to become a family will take time, at
    least 2 - 4 years, but it is well worth the effort. 
    
    
    Nancy

    While I certainly agree it is important to show the children a new
    marriage is not going to be put asunder by their behaviour, Nancy
    talks about not allowing hurtful behaviour ...
    
    Who's hurting here, and who's responsible for it ?
    
    The person who's been hurt here is the child, as an innocent part of
    transactions over which she's no control, and continues to feel that she
    has no control.  She's been torn by her parents separation, and
    again by her mother's remarriage.
    
    If this were an adult child (as I was when my mother remarried), the
    answer was easy ... move out.  That allowed me to deal with the
    situation.  This girl is in a situation that she cannot do anything
    about it yet.  It's all very well to say that she should learn to deal
    with her feelings, but how well do any of us cope when forced to accept
    traumatic changes over which we have no control ?  Usually not too well.
    
    Sure her behaviour is not good ... but the way to deal with the
    behavioural issues is NOT to mix them back into the pot that's causing
    the problems in the first place.  That is just more "The beatings will
    continue until morale improves".  The issue of the bad behaviour must
    be dissociated from the situation that is producing it ...
    
    So for example, say the child bad mouths the new step father ... 
    
    Don't respond saying ... "Don't bad mouth your step-father like that",
    or "Don't bad mouth my husband like that".
    
    Rather ... "You wouldn't bad mouth anyone else like that so it is not
    OK to bad mouth <Tom> " 
    
    The negative examples are refer to the situation that is producing
    the problem.  The positive one puts the situation into a different
    context other than the "interloper in the family" as she sees it.
    
    It's all very well to say that the child has to learn to cope with
    feelings ... It usually takes MANY years for the "wronged and hurt"
    adult in a divorce to learn to cope with the problems ... and many
    cope astoundingly poorly.  The vengeful bitterness seems to last for
    years!  Can you blame the kids for feeling bitter ?
    
    Stuart

    
    I think Stuart has a very good point here. There is saying (as a
    matter of fact, they are teaching that in school) that a negative
    behavior performed by person A to person B is not about person B,
    it is about person A. So, if person A says something hurtful to
    person B, it is not about person B doing something wrong, it is
    about person A feeling hurtful inside and needs to find an outlet
    or resolve for his/her feelings. If person A is happy and secure,
    there is no reason for him/her to say anything hurtful to anyone. 
    Indeed, it is very difficult to be on the receiving end as person B,
    but it is up to person B to decide to take offense or not. In cases 
    where person B is the adult and person A is the child, it is only
    reasonable to ask the adult to act like an adult and the child to
    act like a child. When the adult decides to act like a child and 
    take offense and expects the child to act like an adult, the child is
    losing out big time. We are supposed to love, protect and cherish 
    our children, in situations where we fail and cause them heartaches,
    we should at least feel for them and act compassionately. Children
    are not designed to grow up expediently through divorces/remarriages/
    traumas, it is not fair for us adults to expect them to pass with
    lfying colors while most adults can't cope with such situations
    ourselves. If we, as parents, do not get into our children's shoes and
    feel for them, no one else will. They'll end up feeling lonely and
    unimportant and fall prey to bad influences. Lastly, we are our 
    children's only role models, if we can't do it right ourselves, they 
    are not going to learn it right, no matter what we tell them. So, before 
    we get irrate over our children's behavior, we should examine our own 
    behavior and intention first.   
    
    Just MHO, YMMV.
    
    
    Eva            

Thanks Eva ...  That took a lot of reading to understand ... 

but yes ... 

the parents are in a far better position to accomodate the child's feelings
than the child is, because the child usually cannot understand why the
parents could not work it out ... after all, they are the adults and supposed
to have all the answers (even a teen will admit that in spite of rebellious
behaviour that the parent is still supposed to have the answers).

It is a thin line that through generous parenting that can be made a lot
wider.

Important points, but on the other side of that, if we do not teach our
teens (and even younger children) to behave at least in a somewhat appropriate
manner to others, with respect, curtesy, and consideration for other's 
feelings and needs as well their own, how can we expect them to magically 
become considerate adults able to accomodate and cooperate with others?

Leslie

    Re: .67, that is the point I was trying to make.  My 2.5 year old can
    easily get frustrated at times, but we have taught her to say what is
    bothering her and not resort to yelling or throwing things.  This is
    (to me) an important part of being a human being, i.e. knowing how to
    communicate and knowing not to yell or throw things, even when one is
    upset.
    It is obvious that for many of her daycare peers, that these values are
    not important.  To me, it seems that it should be an iterative process
    starting when one is a toddler, to learn consideration for others.  And
    when one is hurting, one needs to understand how to deal with it.
    
    My two cents.
    Nancy 

>
>Important points, but on the other side of that, if we do not teach our
>teens (and even younger children) to behave at least in a somewhat appropriate
>manner to others, with respect, curtesy, and consideration for other's 
>feelings and needs as well their own, how can we expect them to magically 
>become considerate adults able to accomodate and cooperate with others?
>

By Example ...  If we show our accomodation in situations like this, we
show them how it is done.

We cannot force someone else to show all these things ... we have to find
ways to encourage this behaviour ... and one of the best ways is to take
our children seriously ...  to respect their needs.

Stuart

Thank for all of the replies and opinions.  I sat down with my
daughter and apologized for her feeling that I was forcing her into
a 'family'.  I explained that I understood how she felt that we (her and I)
were the family.  However I did explain that Steve was a parent
and that when rules are set he has the authority to enforce them 
ie: chores.   I have also changed my reactions to her and this has 
seemed to help.
Her behavior since this talk has improved.  When she starts being
rude and disrespectful I calmly explain that I am willing to have a 
conversation when she is calmer and able to talk civilly.

Thanks for all the notes.  Judy 

    Congratulations to you Judy!  A few months back, a friend I hadn't seen
    for a while told me about a similar situation that a mutual friend was
    having with her teenage daughter.  As the first friend kept explaining
    what was going on, it became more apparent that our other friend was
    contributing to her daughter's behavior by the way she reacted.  She
    had the daughter in therapy, and on lots of restrictions.  But, she
    didn't seem to be willing to take a look at the way she treated her 
    daughter, and try to make some changes in her own behavior.  It was
    sad, since I couldn't see how the daughter was going to change given
    the way her mom was responding to her. 
    
    It's nice to see an example of a parent who not only trys to see how
    she can change her teenager's behavior, but also looks to herself to
    see if she might be contributing to it in any way.
    
    Peggy

    I'm going through something very very similar with my teen age son.
    I moved in with a male and am in the process of selling the family
    home. Two of my other sons moved out on their own. My 14 year old
    didn't have a choice. At first he behaved so badly that he thought he
    could stop it. This was last year when it first started. We now have a
    counselor. Long long story..one day at a time. It's tough stuff.