Conference moira::parenting

    We had a similar situation with my kids (both boys) and the precocious
    little girl down the street.  My problem was easily solved - they were
    planning to move anyway.  I did, however, catch them in a precarious
    state in my basement.  I told the little girl that their play was
    inappropriate behaviour and that she needed to go home.  She left and
    soon after I met her dad on the street.  I explained what happened and
    that I would appreciate it if the kids were not allowed to play indoors
    alone in her home and that I would do the same in my home.  Luckily,
    the father had somewhat the same opinion I had and agreed.
    
    I believe that since you are not getting assistance from the other
    parents, you must deal totally with your own children.  It will become
    necessary that you not allow them to be alone together - but even
    before that you must explain what sex is and how it is to be used.  My
    personal opinion is that if you tell them that it is reserved for two
    people who love each other very much (like mom and dad) and I would add
    (and are married to each other - but that's my opinion).  You need to
    instill in them the idea of appropriate and inappropriate behaviour and
    what you will allow and not allow.  You need to be aware of their every
    move - yet without being too obvious (you want to be able to monitor
    without "hovering"). 
    
    This kind of thing scares me, too.  I had a little sampling of an issue
    last summer, but it was quickly stopped because 1) I had the support of
    the other parents, and 2) they moved out of state within two months.
    
    I certainly hope you find a formula that works for you and your family
    and will allow you to remain friends with the other family.
    
    Good luck and do spend time talking with your children.  I believe that
    is where you'll need to start.
    
    -sandy
    

    	I would venture to say that the behavior that you cited is in the
    realm of Normal sexual curiosity. The fact that the children did not
    really know what they were doing (lying on the ground to make babies,
    straightening out the penis) indicates that they are playing without
    intent.

    	That being said, the situation should be addressed but you have to
    be careful not to lay blame on either of the children. I remember
    playing "Doctor" with the little boy and his brother down the street,
    being caught, having the parents be mortified and never really
    understanding what the big deal was. I was spoken to and the behavior
    stopped (after a few more exams). We stopped not because the parents
    told us to, but that the game got boring.

    	In this particular case though, I think that the previous note of
    saying that the behavior is unacceptable makes it very clear that you
    are blaming (and shaming) no one. It is not the child that is
    unacceptable, it is the behavior. Supervised play is certainly in order
    (although be careful not to have the children think they are being
    punished).

    	Since you are entering this anonymously, I feel okay about saying
    this:

    	Some of the language that you used indicated that this situation
    has stirred up many, many things for *you*. You sound deeply pained. My
    guess is that there are unresolved sexual or molestation issues in your
    past. If that is the case, (You talk only about protecting your
    daughter - not your son) you'll want to be very careful about not
    placing your fears onto your daughter. If this is the case (and only
    you know the answer to that) maybe a few trips to a counselor who
    specialized in molestation issues would be a good step for you in order
    to begin resolving those conflicts.

    	Let us know what happens.

    				Wendy

    I have a very interesting reprint that was distributed by my son's
    school describing what is considered normal sexual interest and
    activity vs. questionable/borderline/abnormal. It's too long to type
    in, but if anyone wants a copy, please send me mail.
    
    I think it may put some parents' minds to rest (it did mine). 
    
    Lucy Patton
    PKO3-1/J31

    It sounds pretty much in the realm of normal -- not that it should
    necessarily be ignored, but based on just what you say here it
    doesn't sound like you need to worry too much.  
    
    I can remember Steven and his friend Caroline (a year younger)
    locking the door shut so they could have sex and make babies.  As
    near as I could figure out, their idea was that being alone
    together in a dark room with the door locked constituted "sex."  
    
    Caroline stuffed one of Steven's toy animals (I think it was a
    Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle statuette) up under her shirt and said
    she was going to have a baby, and then a few minutes later she had
    the baby by pulling the TMNT out from under her shirt.  
    
    Caroline's mother and I were both pregnant at the time.  We
    presume that they were mostly playing house, and that was what was
    going on in their houses at the time.  We also  agreed it would be
    really nice if it really were that easy!
    
    Whatever you do, I think it's important that it include giving
    both of your kids some accurate information about what the sex act
    and procreation involve.  As you said, it's not right that your
    daughter should learn this from another kid, and your neighbor is
    right that the other kids are going to talk about it.  Our society
    is saturated with the presence of sex and pretty much void of
    information about either the biology of sex or the emotions and
    relations around it; if you don't tell them they are going to hear
    about it from other kids.  
    
    Steven seemed totally absorbed in the general issue of sex for
    most of the last year (second grade) -- not that he ever did
    anything, but he said things that made it plain it was on his
    mind.  I presume there was an Oedipal component to it as well as
    normal curiosity.  But that stage seems to have passed. 
    
    --bonnie

I have no problems with teaching sex to children ... but this is a prize
example of a little bit of knowledge being dangerous.  An example of what
happens when only part of the story is told.  Never ever would I start with
the mechanics ... which is obviously what this other parent did and so when
you add percociousness to it, hey presto!

Lessons in appropriate behaviour and an awful lot of damage control are
now required in terms of teaching sex to these kids to fill in the missing
parts ... like only between *adult* loving couples and so on.  And I certainly
agree to keeping the kids in view for a while ... and I'd also be inclined
to limit the friendships for a while too until the novelty of their new
found knowledge declines!

Good luck!

Stuart

I think you need to expand a little on what Stuart said in .5.  Someone
told me recently that when she was little, her mom explained sex and how babies
are made, etc. and she was scared to death.  She was afraid *she* would have
a baby after playing sex exploration games.

I think explaining that sex occurs between loving *adult* couples, but go that
little extra and make it clear that only *adults* can have babies.  She can
pretend, but it won't happen for real.

And BTW, when reading note .0, I also had the impression that you were 
struggling with some issue from your own past.  Try to identify why the 
sexuality of your children seems to bother you, if you don't already know. 
At least then you can *choose* to pass on it to your kids, or leave it behind.

Best wishes,

Pat

Re .2 (Wendy):

Your conclusion that the basenoter must have unresolved sexual or
molestation issues struck me as a huge leap in logic.  I believe my
reaction would have been similar and that conclusion does not apply to
me.

The basenote removed his/her child from the situation and is now
trying to learn what is normal for that age.  I think few of us really
know what _is_ considered normal for children of a given age until we
actually face the situation.  That's where Parenting noters whose
children are older or who have faced similar situations can help.

I assumed that his/her concern was focused on the daughter rather than
the son because it was the daughter, not the son, who was
participating in the activities he/she are concerned about. 

I also believe that the many parents today are probably much more
"paranoid" about this type of things that _our_ parents were because
of the increased awareness of sexual abuse and its horrors.  It's
tough to find that fine line between being overly protective and being
unaware of potentially harmful situations.

-Tracy (mother of a 3 1/2-year-old and a 5 1/2-year-old)

    

    My reply was not a conclusion of any sort, it was based on my
    impression of the base reader's reactions (not necessarily actions) and
    wordings. You are right, my reply was based not on logic but rather on
    intuition, I see no harm in including that in a reply.

    The beauty of this notesfile is that not only do we get the experiences
    of parents who have older children, but we get the experiences of
    people with differing viewpoints and life experiences.


    			Wendy

    When I was teaching kindergarten we had a boy who was very advanced
    (!). His parents (who he called by their first names) had taught him
    all the mechanics of sex. I'm sure they explained the purpose and 
    emotions behind it but at 5 he didn't really retain all that extra 
    information. But he sure remembered the action parts! I found him and
    a female friend preparing to "fork" as he called it!!! Don't know
    where he got that but I can guess! Needless to say, I was very very
    surprised, but I wasn't overly worried due to the reactions they
    had. They were both very embarrassed and seemed relieved that their
    play, which they knew was not acceptable, was being interrupted. 
    We talked about it, and I was sure to not let them "sleep" together
    during nap time again. Geez! 
    
    I agree that 1. the kids need to understand that they are doing
    inappropriate behavior 2. that your girl will not get pregnant and
    3. she cannot play with anyone who will do that so she better learn
    how to say NO very quickly. 
    
    I think the play was definately in the realm of normalcy. But that 
    doesn't mean the other folks should ignore it. Exploration is normal,
    and parents letting kids know when it is inappropriate is normal. I
    think the first time you encounter this it is really a shock, which 
    accounts for your reaction (and maybe other noter's concern that it has
    brought up issues for you). We assume a lot of innocence in our kids
    and really it is innocence, but sex and kids is, of course, a hot issue.
    I would react the same way, despite my experience while teaching.
    
    Cyn

I agree that the curiosity the basenoter described would be upsetting to me
if it were my kids involved, and that removing them, at least for a little
while, from the situation is a good thing - a cooling off period.

I have to say, though, that kids pick up their cues about sexuality from
not only "the kids in the street" but also from their parents.  How we as
role models and authority figures react in situations described in .0 will
greatly affect how our children behave and feel about it.

I think that the level of curiosity in a young child is increased
proportionally to the level of mortification the parent exhibits.  If you
matter-of-factly explain that sex is part of reproduction (for ALL animals)
and leave the morality issues out of it till they are old enough to hear it
I think you might find the kids lose their interest as the subject becomes
boring.

I told my son all about the biological aspects of reproduction when he was
a preschooler (perhaps 5 years old).  We'd seen virtually every animal in
the world reproducing on TV (National Geographic), so he pretty well had an
idea of what it was all about - just wanted confirmation on how people get
to be here.

In other conversations, we've talked about strangers and private parts of
the body and what's ok and what's not.

At age 8 1/2 we watched the "Miracle of Life" video
together (I was pregnant at the time).  I answered all of his questions
about sex and reproduction in a factual, unemotional manner.

To my knowledge, the only incident that ever happened concerning my son was
in the first-grade when a classmate was over (a boy) and Sean said the boy
was in the closet pulling his pants off.  Alone.  I suggested that the kids
go outside and play for a bit, and that was the end of it.

So, I guess this might pose itself as an argument for early education.

~Caryn

I have had little experience yet with my son acting out sexual curiosity with
friends.  However, I do feel the same way that (Wendy?) had: that if any child
needs protecting, they all do. 

It is perfectly normal for children to experiment and play around with sex as
they would experiment and play around with washing dishes or pretending to
iron, etc.  I think the suggestion about the adults keeping the kids 
supervised is a good one, though, and that there should be more discussion
with the kids about what is and is not appropriate behaviour.

I have an additional suggestion, and I think it is an important one.
Telling the kids that this is something "only adults do" is not enough in
this situation. Driving a car is something that we tell kids that only adults
do, and they still play at driving a car.  I think when discussing these things
that we need to also tell the kids that they should not *pretend* to have sex,
either, and that they should not take off their clothes in play even if
pretending to bathe, and so forth.

	 Carol

    I'm hoping someone can help me with this one.  One of our 4 year old
    son's playmate is the neighbor next door.  She is 6 and will turn 7 in
    September.  Lately my wife and I have noticed that when ever the two of
    them get together they like to play "the hug game".  It appeared that
    my son would initiate it would want to hug my neighbor.  I have to
    admit I thought it was harmless, but I would emphasize to my son not to
    play it because even though he liked it, Nicole (and other children)
    may not.  I should also add that sometimes Nicole would not want to
    play by saying to him "Stop, I don't want to play".
    
    Yesterday, my wife saw Brendan and Nicole playing together.  The next
    thing she noticed was that Brendan had his shorts off and was "showing"
    off.  Well, my wife immediately brought him inside and we both talked
    to Brendan about this, and that it was not appropriate to do this.  We
    also told Nicole not to play that way with Brendan.
    
    This afternoon as soon as Nicole got off her school bus she came over
    to Brendan who was playing outside and asked him if he wanted to "play
    the game".   My wife could't believe it, luckilly Brendan told her that
    his mother and father said it was wrong to play that way (my wife was
    very proud of him).  My wife, more sternly, told Nicole not to play
    that way with Brendan.
    
    After this incident my wife was talking to our other neighbor, Mary
    Lou, and she said that she's seen Nicole and Brendan play the hugging
    game, but NICOLE is the one that initiates it, not Brendan (even the
    times Nicole says she doesn't want to play, Mary Lou said she was the
    one who started it).
    
    Now, I know children are curious, but I THINK this may be out of hand
    now, and I want to stop it.  My wife and I get along very well with
    Nicole's parents and we don't want to start problems, but I think they
    need to know.  I have no problems addressing it, but I'm hoping to get
    some advice on HOW to address it.  Please let me know some of your
    thoughts/comments.
    
    Once again, I know curiosity may be a factor, but I think I need to
    stop this "playing" NOW.
    
    Thanks,
    Mike

    Mike,
    
    I still have the article I mentioned in .3 of this note (somewhere...)
    If you would like a copy, send me mail with your USPS address. 
    
    Lucy

A few weeks ago our very good friends (happen to also
be our neighbors) were at Home Depot - now if you've 
ever been there you'll know how huge the place is!

While walking through the store their 3 year old son
had pulled his shorts & underwear down below his 
privates and was exposing himself to other shoppers.
NO ONE said a thing to the parents - they have no clue
as to how long this was going on.  And because he was 
walking in front of them they could not see it.

When they finally saw what was happening - they were 
so embarrased they had to leave the store.  When they got
home they sat him down quietly and asked him why he did
it.  His reply was he didn't really know why but it "felt 
good"!!.  They explained to him why he shouldn't ever do 
that again and he seems to understand.  Recently, he 
completed his potty training (no training pants even
at night) and I seem to think maybe the "freedom" is 
what incouraged this.  

    Ah well, toddlers...
    
    In the Goodwill store recently, my daughter sat on the floor and pulled
    off her pants because she wanted to try on an outfit.  Some 8-10 year
    old boys were playing nearby and were goggle-eyed.
    
    I stopped her, but not before those poor boys had a fit.
    
    :-)
    Laura

    re: 15 -- I got a huge chuckle out of that story - what a funny image.
    The thing that is sad is that the parents were so embarrassed that
    they had to leave the store.

    Kids are so curious about their sexuality at that age and have few
    inhibitions, as Laura's daughter demonstrated. It is so innocent.
    What do the parents teach with such an extreme reaction (hurriedly 
    leaving the store, having a big talk at home)? I think that teaches
    that he did something shameful and bad. Was it shameful and bad? 
    
    This is the way a lot of us were raised and frankly it didn't do us 
    much good. It would be far better, in my opinion, for the parents to 
    calmly say "This is not the time or place to pull your pants down" and 
    then go on with their shopping.

    Lucy                     

My neighbor is an intensive care nurse and she is VERY
open with her children when they ask questions - and
yes she uses the real words.  I guess I should explain
better - the reason they left the store was that as 
daddy was "realigning" his sons pants - his son kinda 
sensed something was wrong and started to cry - and from
experience he can be a screamer - for example - about
a year ago during the summer I heard the most blood
curdling screams coming from their house and after about 
5 minutes I couldn't stand it so I went over thinking
something had happened to mom and the kids were calling
for help.  I was guided to the kitchen where "said
child" was sitting on a chair with the "timer on" and 
he was voicing his opinion about being there.  He was so 
embarrased he even apologized to me!!!!  She has been 
very successful with the timer - the key seems to be to
gauge the time against the age (and start early) also
not recommended until child is two, then it's 2 min. for
a two year old, 3 min. for a 3 year old and so on.  She 
only has to say the word timer - and they immediately
change what ever behavior is happening at that moment.
Also, the frequency of the time has actually "lessened"
over the past year - I think it's actually working
long term (he's four now) - your probably thinking
wait if he's 4 now last year he was 3 how come he was 
screaming for over 5 min. ---- easy, every time he 
gets down off the chair BEFORE time is up - it gets 
turned up one minute.  This also quickly stops! especially
when mom doesn't back down - she told me he has never 
gone over 6 min. - this seems to be his limit. I 
invision someday when he's all grown up and married and 
his wife asks him to set the timer for the
 holiday Turkey and........well use your
imagination!!!!!!  Getting back to their discussion 
with him - they actually encouraged him to be open to 
his feelings BUT that there is appropriate behavior
in certain places - and that tubbies was the best place 
to be naked and he agreed!

Children - a blessing in disguise.........

Donna

    We were at a pool party with mixed sexes and all ages.  My son
    proceeded to change into his bathing suit on the steps adjacent to
    the pool.  He was 4.5 at the time.  I tried to stop him but he was
    naked before I noticed what was going on.  It got alot of laughs
    as the others noted him and my embarrasment.  Matt didn't mind a bit.
    
    Jeff

    My son is 4.5 now and will drop his pants to change at any time.  We
    were at the beach over the holiday weekend and there were tons of kids
    his age and older running around naked.  He just wanted to do the same. 
    He did get a nasty sunburn tho.
    
    Virginia

    I've got a couple questions, and want some advise.  (this is the Advise
    column isn't it? :>) !!)
    
    AJ's room is literally only feet from the bathroom's door.  Uusally we
    have him strip in the bathroom, take his bath and "streak" from the
    bathroom to his room to get dressed. (Unless we have someone beside us
    there, then we wrap him in a towel and tell him to run and get dressed.
    At 6.5 shouldn't he have enough modesty to *want* to wrap up between
    rooms?
    
    Second, either my husband or I will at least assist him during the
    bath, due to him not always "wiping" himself well enough during the
    day, he sometimes needs some assistance in washing that part of his
    body.  Outside of that, and some help with his hair washing, we just
    hand him a soapy facecloth and let him wash himself.  Of course lately
    with wearing shorts his knees and legs need a little extra help.
    
    Someone mentioned that because we are still washing his privates this
    may be considered "molestation".  I was taken back, and a little
    shocked that a parent can't even wash or wipe a child's rear end.
    What do I do?  What's next, I can't see him naked in the tub?
    
    Lyn

I don't know what 6.5 y.o. boys are like exactly, but here is my experience:

Evan is 5.  He has no modesty.  This week he was playing with a grownup
close friend of ours and they went to the park and slid down something very
wet and his pants were soaked.  We arrived at her house shortly after that
and suggested he take off his pants and I was amazed that his underwear was
just as wet and muddy.  When he sat down on her chair to play with her
computer, he spontaneously took off his underwear, too, and sat there playing
on the computer in nothing but a shirt.  (Shellie then searched the car for
something for him to wear, but he didn't care a whit.)

A year or so ago I was visiting a sick friend at her house and her 6 or 7 
year old boy had to take a bath.  While the bath was getting ready he
walked out of the bathroom buck naked and came into the living room where
we were and gave me a 5 minute description of some toy or game he liked.
His mother wasn't surprised a bit (though she suggested to him to go take
his bath).

<    Second, either my husband or I will at least assist him during the
<    bath, due to him not always "wiping" himself well enough during the
<    day, he sometimes needs some assistance in washing that part of his
<    body.  

I think you are both just doing your parental duty.  I'm sure you are already
trying to teach him to wipe himself better and to clean himself in the bath
better.  He'll learn it eventually and you won't have to continue doing this.

      Carol

    On the other hand, my six year old is painfully modest.  Example -
    yesterday I asked him to carry his folded laundry upstairs as I was
    opening the front door to the house for some air.  He was walking past
    the front door hold his underwear under his shirt.  He said he didn't
    want anyone to see his underwear.  He is just as modest with them on!!!
    His father and I are the only ones who can "see him naked anywhere",
    but his brother can see him naked in the tub because they like to play
    together in the water.  Go figure!!!
    
    When my kids were babies we washed them up to about 18 months old with
    a washcloth and baby soap.  The older they got, the less we did.  I
    figured they sat in the water and played for about 30m to an hour (we
    did the shampoo) all the dirt soaked off.
    
    Since they were potty trained we showed them how to wash themselves and
    they still take incredibly long baths (not every day, though).  Since I
    leave them alone (they are 6 and 8) in the tub, I do not know how they
    do.  But, I do know they are doing something right because they are
    clean and squeaky when they come out. 
    
    Lyn - my 6-yr old isn't the best wiper either, so I still keep
    babywipes in the bathroom and on occaision he will ask me to help him
    with one.  I think his arms are too short and he has a hard time
    reaching around.
    
    -sandy
    

    I feel sad that we're so scared of charges of molestation that we're
    afraid to help our youngsters keep their butts clean.  *sigh*
    
    L
    

    Are pictures of a baby's birth considered pornography as well?
    
    This is getting ridiculous!

    	Although the thought is ridiculous, I don't think that the noter's
    *concern* is ridiculous.

    	In a somewhat related instance, Spencer fell onto a hard square toy
    a few months ago and got himself a really nasty purple/black bruise on
    the side of his thigh right where (if one did) you might hit a child.

    	Don't you know that the baby sitter asked us about it?

    	"really, he fell on a toy"

    	"uh huh"

	I was somewhat thankful that Spencer had not started "real" daycare
    yet, as I imagined that some sort of report would have been filed under
    "suspicious bruise".

    	Yes, at times it appears to have gone too far, but I would still,
    anyday, explain red-faced to an official why my child has a bruise than
    let some other child's abuse go unexplained.

    	And as far as sexual abuse and molestation, I think that we as a
    culture are coming off of a really confused era. Our parents
    (generalizing here no offense intended to anyone) in many cases, having
    learned from their parents gave us many mixed messages about sexuality
    and self worth.

    	I, for one, was uncomfortable reading the note about the 7 year old
    coming into the living room naked. Maybe that's me, maybe I'm a prude,
    maybe this is what I'll be passing on to my kids.

    	I don't know, but I do know that (finally) people are starting to
    be advocates for children. Right now, we tend to go a little overboard,
    perhaps it will swing back towards the middle once we are all more
    content with our bodies and our selves.

    				Wendy

                      <<< Note 235.27 by SUPER::WTHOMAS >>>


>    	I, for one, was uncomfortable reading the note about the 7 year old
>    coming into the living room naked. Maybe that's me, maybe I'm a prude,
>    maybe this is what I'll be passing on to my kids.


>    				Wendy

I have always taken the cue from my kids whether they are uncomfortable with
a situation or not.  I don't want to pass on my inhibitions to my kids.  My
son, who is 11, doesn't walk around any more with no clothes on, but would
change into his pajamas watching television up until a year ago.  My daughter,
who is 6, does the same thing.  They show inhibitions, it seems to me only
when society, in terms of their parents or peers, shame them into it.

There is nothing inherently shameful in the human body and we need
to be careful how we pass our "adult" culture to our children.  My kids
understand about closed doors and privacy and that is enough for my needs.

They will choose their own times to be private and when not to.  

    HI,
    
    > Regards to 235.7 - Yes, at times it appears to have gone too far, <
    
      This really made me think since I first read it. I was born in a era
    were children were seen and not heard. A child's word was taken as a
    lie if an adult wouldn't admit to what the child was saying. We got the
    crap beaten out of us if we even looked like we did something wrong.
    The word sex or any sexual words were never spoken, couldn't ask a
    sexual question because that meant you were a whore if you knew any
    words like that. I feel I was totally in the dark as a child. Now
    as an adult I have to learn all the things that were supposedly hidden
    from me as a child. The trouble is I was sexually abused by a
    god-father because of this. No one would listen to me. I was the bad
    little girl because I dared to say a wonderful loving person was bad.
    
        As a mother I was over protective and petrified that someone would
    abuse my children. Now that I'm in recovery I not only watch over my
    kids, but I also keep an eye on other children and especially my 
    grandson. My daughter told me he was starting day-care in September,
    I commented that I hope she checks them out thouroughly. I've driven
    by the place a few times to see if I feel comfortable with it. I almost
    asked her if I could go with her to meet the people but haven't because
    I wasn't sure if I was going overboard. I think that I do go overboard
    because I'm so scared. I know what abuse can do and I don't want it to
    happen to any other child. I sometimes find myself wishing I could stop
    it dead in it's track. Through recovery I know I can't help everyone
    ,but I need to help those that are in my view. I've met a lot of 
    survivors like myself and I wish I could stop all of the pain that
    comes with being a survivor of abuse. So I guess that could mean that
    right now I'm at a stage where I could be condiderate too cautious or
    too overboard.
    
         I know as far as sexuality and what's appropiate as far as nudety
    and age I would never let a child see me naked, and I wouldn't feel
    comfortable with children or even adults in the nude. That's the way
    I was brought up and it's not any easy thing to relearn about what's
    right and wrong in that area. I'm not sure how this paragragh sounds
    or if it makes sense. It's just that I feel I have a lot of
    inhibitions and it's not easy to be inhitited overnight. 
    
    
    
         So, I just wanted to add this entry from a person that tends
    to go overboard in worrying too much about childrens bruises and things
    they say. If I don't feel comfortable with something I try to find out
    a little more until I do feel comfortable. 
    
         Rose
    
    

    In Scandanavia I've seen fully grown men and women changing on the
    beach with no inhibitions, I'm sure it's all a matter of culture and
    nothing really to worry about. The only thing I worry about when I've
    got no clothes on indoors is whether the curtains are drawn or if the
    Mother in Law is staying, otherwise I go anywhere !!!
    
    Ian
    
    

    Matt at almost six is very modest.  All of a sudden about a year ago
    he became aware of how well covered he is.  Prior to that he could have
    cared less.  One time at a swimming pool party I looked up and there he was
    completely nude beside the pool changing out of his bathing suit!  I
    was far more embarassed than he was. He wasn't embarassed at all.  I
    told him later not to do that.
    
    Its sad that someone had to wonder whether it was appropriate to 
    help their six year old clean himself properly because it involved his
    butt.  Of COURSE its appropriate to help him.  One must use common
    sense here.  However, with the heightened concerns regarding
    appropriate touching I am not that suprised that the noter wondered.
    There was no sexual intent involved.  Its also sad that many parents
    have to wonder whether its ok to hug their kids or express non sexual
    physical affection.  I wonder how long it will take before being
    inappropriately overly careful expressing physical affection will start
    showing up as emotional damage to kids. 
    
    Regarding the living room incident with the naked kid.  I think whether
    anyone was made uncomfortable should be the point.  I would not have
    encouraged him to walk in naked but kids do stuff like that.  I would
    point out to him that walking in naked is really not appropriate
    because some people would be upset by it.  Also, in this day and age God
    knows how some third party might interpret it.
    
    I will be glad if society sorts out child abuse issues and one can 
    dare express affection for ones' children in public without wondering
    if someone is going to accuse you of child abuse.  The entire situation
    is SAD.  (Yes, I know its better that even one kid be saved from child
    abuse because of increased awareness than have an incident passed by).
    
    What a COST to all of us though.
    
    Jeff
    

    
    I'm quite surprised by all of this!!  My boys are 8 and 5, and we've
    never given a whole lot of thought to being clothed/unclothed, at home.
    When they're out they realize that they need to stay dressed, but I
    think that that stemmed from a discussion once when we were out, and I 
    was complaining that I was hot.  They suggested I take off my shirt to
    get cooler, so we talked about "public nudity" and that it's against
    the law for women to not wear shirts, and everyone has to wear
    pants/shorts etc etc.  They're very impressed with laws, so undressing
    in public has never been an issue.  
    
    In private, Jason (the 5 year old) picked up some shame/modesty at the
    babysitter's house, and for a little while *REFUSED* to let anyone NEAR
    him if he wasn't fully clothed.  He's overcome it now, and has been
    known to buzz out of the apt in just his undies now and then, and it
    doesn't phase him.  Chris gives little consideration to being dressed
    or not, though he usually just feels more comfortable with underwear
    on.  And if they happen to barge into the bathroom after I get out of
    the shower, I close the door and tell them that they're supposed to
    KNOCK first, but I'm not going to freak out because one of them saw me
    less than fully clothed.  
    
    Does the man in your house ever walk around in his underwear?  They
    don't usually leave much to the imagination!  
    
    On the flip side, my boyfriend and his ex-wife and daughter have been
    MORTIFIED by the thought of nudity.  I couldn't understand WHAT was
    going on, when their daughter was 4 years old, and started getting
    changed for bed, and her mother SCREAMED and went racing into the room,
    slamming doors, because the little girl had taken off her shirt.  It's
    kind of too bad, because at 7 years old, she is so embarrassed by it
    all, that she just can't deal with any thought of discussing anything
    that could be construed as "private".  At her last b.day party, she was
    mortified that her grandmother had bought her a package of panties, and
    she actually UNWRAPPED them in FRONT of everyone, and now everyone SAW
    her panties!!  She's even told her dad to get dressed because in the
    a.m. he's been known to wander in just his underwear.  I think it's
    worse that she's so focused on the whole subject that she even NOTICES.
    
    When does it go from being modest, to being potentially damaging?  I
    don't want my boys running down the road in the nude, but I also
    wouldn't want them to feel so ashamed, that it would be painful if
    someone happened to catch them in their underpants.  I wash if they
    want help, but other than that, the whole issue goes unnoticed.  And in
    the back of my head, I'm also a little hopeful that maybe if we don't
    make SUCH a big deal about it, and treat it as natural as it really is,
    than maybe when they get older, they won't have the drive from
    curiosity that will make them become sexually active, sooner.  
    
    Draw the curtains, discourage STARING, limit "touching" (to what's
    necessary to be healthy/clean), and don't make a big fuss.  I'd like my
    kids to feel comfortable at home, when they're home, and that doesn't
    include getting all uptight because someone opened a closed door
    without knocking first.  
    
     

    I don't think you could have summed up a healthy balance better. 
    
    
    Jeff

    We're little concerned about nudity over here, public or private. 
    People generally change on the beach and there are many nude beaches
    where even families go.
    
    Last year we walked down the Grand Canyon.  When we got to Indian
    Garden, all the men took off their shirts, held it under the water, and
    put their wet shirt back on to cool off.  I was watching this longingly
    and remarked to Markus that I wished I could do that.  He couldn't
    understand why I couldn't.
    
    I take my clue from my children (except in the U.S. :-).  If they feel
    embarrassed about disrobing or being seen, then I respect that.  So far
    they are pretty natural about the whole thing.
    
    Cheryl

Cheryl,

Actually, you can do that, because I have.  It is very
common among backpackers and kayakers to be, shall we
say, pragmatic, about such things.

But, it is important to do what *you* are comfortable
with.  I think any kid would accept that as an
explanation - that you were raised not to do such things,
and you would not be comfortable doing it.  To Markus,
it may still seem silly, but at least it would demonstrate
to him how one should believe in oneself, no matter what
other people think.

Pat

    We had a situation over the weekend, and I keep wondering if I handled
    it properly.  AJ was taking a shower, but I was outside the shower door
    to help him wash his hair. He has ear tubes, and keeps his fingers in
    his ears while I wash his hair, the rest of the washing in the shower
    thing is his to do. I handed him the hand held part of teh shower head
    while I did the "sudsing", aparently the way he had the shower head the
    water was running on his penis.  His comment, which seemed filled with
    excitement, was Mom it's the water is tickling my wee wee!  I was taken
    back a little, I just wasn't expecting such a comment, and in a moment
    of trying to figure out an appropriate response in asplit second I just
    responded "OH!" and just kept on with my task. As it was I took the
    showerhead from him a couple seconds later anyway to rinse his hair,
    and then replaced the thing in its bracket.
    
    Should I have responded or acted differently?  What would you have
    done.  Realizing it is probably a normal response, it definitely wasn't
    sexual in nature, nor was it handled as such.  I just was caught off
    guard, and a little unprepared.
    
    Lyn 

    "Oh" sounds fine to me--give the same response as for "the water is
    tickling my nose".
    
    		-John Bishop

    I think you did fine with your response.  Of course the water tickled
    his wee wee... he just SAID SO!   Sexual?  Sure it was sexual in that
    he was experiencing an erotic sensation in an erotic area of his body.
    Whats wrong with that?
    
    You did fine I think.
    
    It DOES take us parents aback when we discover our kids do have a
    sexual side... even if it is a preliminary innocent water tickling
    experience.
    
    Jeff
    
    

I agree you done fine.  If it comes up again, you might take the opportunity 
to correct his terminology.

Clay

    
    re: I agree you done fine.  If it comes up again, you might take the
        opportunity to correct his terminology.
    
    
    To what?
    
    Also, I disagree that it was necessarily a sexual sensation he
    was feeling, I have been showering for many years and water running
    down my "front", sorry can't say the P word, never even remotely felt
    sensual.
     

    
>    re: I agree you done fine.  If it comes up again, you might take the
>        opportunity to correct his terminology.
       
>    To what?

from "wee wee" to "penis".  Not a big deal, though he's got plenty of time to 
learn.

I agree with you that the tickling sensation was not necessarily erotic or 
sexual.

Clay

    Not sexual?  I suppose its a matter of definition. I would consider 
    'tickly feelings' in my genital area sexual.  So what if the kid had
    'sexual' feelings?  That's one of the problems with our society.  Many
    people are so uptight sexually they can't even say penis or admit their
    own or other peoples sexual feelings.  We pass our up tightness on to
    our kids and then wonder why there are so many rapists and people who
    can't seperate sexuality from violence.
    
    Ok, off my soapbox, but thats what I think.
    
    Jeff
    

    Re. 235.42 one of my earlier replies.
    
    I did not intend to imply that any individual in this conference is
    raising their kid(s) to have sexual problems.
    
    I intended to make a generic statement about societies sexual hangups.
    
    My earlier reply was poorly worded because of the possible
    implications.
    
    Jeff

    I have a minor question re the closed door issue.  In our home our
    bedroom is upstairs, AJ's room and the rest of the house is downstairs.
    Last week I had put him to bed, thought he was asleep and was upstairs
    in my room, but the door was open as it usually is since it's so
    isolated from the main part of the house.  
    
    Suddenly here I am stark naked with my son standing there staring at
    me.  He had sort of a funny grin on his face, but I personally think it
    was more of a "I've been caught" kind of thing as opposed to "look
    mom's got no clothes on" kind of thing.  He really came up very
    quietly, and I really didn't hear him at all.  I gave him a very stern
    warning that he had better get back into bed, because it was past his
    bedtime and he had school in the morning.  Not a thing about the
    condition he found his (overweight and naked) mother in!
    
    We don't generally close, or lock our bedroom door unless there is a
    specific reason to do it, and the bathroom door if treated as
    "knockfirst" even if it isn't shut hard, almost shut constitutes a
    "knock first situation", because frequently we have two cats with a
    water bowl in the bathroom, and this is often when they will come in
    for a drink,while one of us is using the bathroom.  Frequently AJ will
    use the toilet while I take a shower, not a big deal in our home
    my husband will freqently do the same type of thing too, especially
    when the day has been hot and sticky.  We have a thing of grabbing a
    quick shower before supper, which is usually when AJ is sitting on the
    toilet, just simply so we can feel "human" again and relax for the
    evening.
    
    There is a joke in our house, you can tell what time of the year it is
    by how many towels are in the hamper and how many bars of soap have
    been used.  Many of each mean there's been a hot humid spell!
    
    Lyn

    I just reread my last reply, and need to add an explaination...
    
    I had gone upstairs to change, and I was changing into something that
    needed a complete change right down to underwear and bra.  I don't
    usually run around the house stark naked, even if it's only a towel
    from shower to bathroom or an oversized Tee shirt.
    
    

    Here, we are very little concerned about nudity, public or otherwise. 
    My boys, 15 and almost 13, will follow me around talking to me while I
    change, shower, etc.  The only time when I refuse to talk to them is
    when I am on the toilet.  We are fortunate here in that our toilets are
    generally separate from the rest of the bathroom.  In any case, they
    have been taught since a very early age (as soon as they could
    understand?) that they should knock on closed doors.  Markus did walk
    in on us once, however.  He found it funny (escaped before we noticed
    him, we didn't find it quite so funny :-) 
    
    They also see their father nude, for example when he puts on his suit
    before swimming or sometimes even swims without one.  Dirk is similarly
    unconcerned about nudity but Markus is more shy.  We respect that.
    
    When they were little and played with themselves in public we just told
    them to stop it.  Matter of fact, no big deal.  It was just told them
    as something that was impolite in public.
    
    Cheryl

Notes 235.44--.47 and .50, which deal with children fondling their
genitals, have been moved to the more relevant topic 661.  They are now
661.5--.9

Clay Satow
co-moderator

The Author of this note has chosen to remain anonymous at this time.  
Anonymous replies may be sent to me and I will forward them on to the 
Basenoter.

I have a soon to be 3 yr. old girl and my boyfriend has a 5yr. old boy.
Last night they were playing in the bedroom and it seemed to be to quiet
for me.  I had this gut feeling so took my shoes off and snuck in.  Sure
enough, my daughter was lying on her back with her pants down and the
boy was about to put his mouth on her behind.  I yelled, "What are you
doing".  He sure jumped up quick with that look.  I took her and went into
the other room and told his father.  From there he had a nice talking to
and had to stay in his room alone for a couple of hours.  The problem now
is that I can't stop thinking about this and wonder why.  Is this normal
for 5 yr old boys to do?  Was it and is it an isolated incident?  What
should I do about it?  How do I ask my 3 yr old if anything else has
happened?  Does a 5 yr old just have wild imaginations or would he have
had to see something in the past?  I have so many questions and any 
advice on what to do about this would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

It seems to me that kids learn to do things in two ways:

1) they see it done.

2) it is done to them.

3) they heard about it from other kids

>From there he had a nice talking to and had to stay in his 
>room alone for a couple of hours.

I think the recomendation on "time outs" is that a child not be left 
for more than one minute per year. So for a five year old a five minute
time out seems more appropriate.

I can only imagine how you feel about all this. It must have been a shock.

    re .55
    
    4) They discover things that feel good on their own.  Sometimes they
    want to share these good feelings.
    
    5)  Kids are curious and want to look at/ touch/smell someone who looks 
    different. 
    
    I think the best thing would be not to make much out of it, but maybe
    my mom's rule might work here as well.  We weren't allowed closed doors
    when we had friends over who were the opposite sex.  Started this when
    we were quite young and it continued on through highschool with little
    to no problems.  
    
    Emphasizing that her private parts are not something she needs to share
    with someone else might also be an idea.  But do it when you are calm,
    making a scene could have impacts later in life.  
    
    meg

    These kids are so little they can hardly know much about what they are
    doing.  My impression is that they are finding out about their bodies,
    and, yes exploring all parts of their bodies is normal.  I think we
    adults are shocked when once in a while we are reminded just how sexual
    kids can be.  Although in the situation being currenly discussed it
    seems more exploratory than outright sexual. 
    
    We adults are also quick to put adult motives 'onto' kids. I don't
    think you have much to worry about regarding the situation you
    described.  Try not to make TOO big a deal of it, or, as another noter
    suggested the kids (especially the boy because he is the older) may
    decide that the private areas of their bodies are bad.  God knows there
    are enough people who feel badly about themselves and their bodies
    already.  
    
    Jeff