Conference moira::parenting

    If he is doing this to get your attention, why not just
    ignore it for awhile.  Let him clean up his mess and make
    him wash his pants.  Is he doing this during the day or just
    at night?  If he is also doing this during the day, make him
    wear diapers during the day, let the peer pressure do the trick.
    
    Meanwhile, give him plenty of love.  Don't punish him.  Let him
    knows that you really care of him.
    
    I know this is tough, hang in there.
    
    Wendy
    

    You say that this is a foster child that has been living with you for
    only a short time?  Of course he's wetting his bed and pants.  The kid
    has probably just gone through some very traumatic times.  I don't know
    if he's just lost his parents or has just been taken away from them, or
    if he's been passed around quite a bit in his few shorts years, but
    whatever it is, he's going through some very difficult times right now
    and wetting his pants/bed is all probably psycological.  I don't think
    he's doing it just to get your attention.  What ever you do, don't
    punish him or yell at him for it and don't treat him like a baby.  Give
    him lots of love and support and in time, he'll over come it.
    
    Lori B.

    I know a woman who's children wet the bed.  I guess it's caused from
    them missing a certain chemical.  It runs in the males on her side.
    Her doctor gave her a prescription for a medication (I'll get the name 
    tonight) and there hasn't been a problem since.  Maybe this would work
    for the child.  
    
    Don't punish him for wetting the bed.  Who knows what the other
    guardians did when they had him?  Poor thing'll go crazy!
    
    Be patient, and make him feel like he's part of the family and not an
    outcast.

    I agree with most here  - do not punish him!  He probably feels bad
    enough already!  Also, don't make him clean it up by himself - this
    will only add to hi humiliation!  You said he checked out okay
    physically - did the doctor suggest psycological possibilities?  I'd
    check this route first of all.
    
    Also, if the child has been with you for a while now and has just
    started this, is it possible that the child is feeling more at home and
    at ease and finally sleeping soundly?  The reason I mention this is
    that I have a child who slept so soundly she didn't even realize she
    had wet until morning came.  We went to the doctor and tried all the
    usual remedies (i.e. no drinks after dinner, wakin gher up 2 times
    during the nite, etc.)  The ONLY thing that worked was a product
    supplied by Sears - The Bedwetter Alarm!  This really works!  I would
    try that approach!  It took less than a week before she was
    automatically getting up on her own during the nite!  When we woke her
    up at nite to try and get her in the habit of getting up on her own she
    had no idea what was going on - she was still asleep - didn't remember
    getting up during the nite!  The alarm is VERY LOUD and goes off when
    the pad it's connected to gets wet - this does indeed wkae up the child
    (and every other member of the household!).
    
    Good luck - I hope this info helps!
    

    We are only his 2nd foster home,he spent 6 months with a 
    family who had 3 boys of there own and from what I have been
    told it was to much for them to handle. He does see his mother
    on a regular bases and the previous foster mother never punished
    him and treated him like a infant.
      This wetting is all new,he's a great little guy who fully understand
    what foster parenting is and tells us he knows his mom is sick and
    hopes she gets better soon. Don't get me wrong,we don't jump down his
    throat for wetting,but when it happens occasionally and it doesn't seem
    to phase him a bit for doing it it makes me wonder if we are over
    looking something. Thanks for the imput and keep it coming.
    
                                      JIM

    I agree with 104.2
    
    He's going thru a very tough time and is probably confused about 
    being separated from his parents. I don't think punishment or
    embarrasment is the answer at this point.  
    
    Show him tons of love and be patient.
    
    Sheila

As the mother of the world's all time bed wetting champion (Mark is now 11.5
and still wets every night), I would recommend a number of things.

1. Don't ignore it, heknows he's got a problem.  Try to work with him without
being condemning to help him overcome it.

2. If there is nothing physically wrong and he has been dry in the past, then
it is most likely caused by changes in his life.  It is difficult to say what
he is hiding inside himself, even if he is outwardly well adjusted.

3. The alarm system is expensive and it doesn't work for every one.  It did
not work for my son and I almost had a nervous breakdown trying to use it.

4. The medicine refered to in one of the previous notes is Tofranil.  We have
been through this cure twice with success in the beginning but gradually it
became less effective.  It is related to drugs used to treat hyperactivity and
must be used with care.  It can not be given indefinitely.

5. Do not put diapers on him unless he asks for them.  This ruins their fragile
self esteem.  My son is now back in adult diapers but because he could no
longer stand waking up soaked every morning and was embarressed on school
field trips.  But it was his choice.  You can make up the bed with a rubber
sheet on top of the bottom sheet, then a half sheet over it for comfort.  Use
no top sheet and a children's washable comforter.  This reduces the amount of
laundry you have to do.

6. We NEVER punish Mark for wetting but do insist that he is clean.  This is
for his own well being as well as ours.  If his sheets are wet, he takes them
to the laundry room so his room doesn't smell.  He bathes daily so that he 
doesn't smell.  He does this voluntarily because he doesn't want his friends
to notice.

7. We have tried every cure known to man.  I found these cures had less and less
effect because Markus started to believe that he is uncurable.  From my
experience, I wouldn't push the cures.  Try and find out what is behind it (and 
in your foster child's case, I really believe that this is psychological). 
But mostly be there and be helpful.

8. Lastly, and most important, get Ferber's book.  It has a very good section on
bedwetting.  I have actually written to Dr. Ferber who sent back an interesting
reply.  Since we live in Europe, we are unable to avail ourselves of his help
but I would certainly suggest reading his book as a way to understanding the
problem.

Good luck.  Having gone through this for so long, I can imagine what your little
boy is suffering.  I think I feel it for Markus almost as much as he does for
himself.

Cheryl

We're also in a foster parenting situation now.  We're dealing with a very
different set of problems, but I think there may be some commonality.  We've
been going to family counseling, and although he's still resistant, it has
helped immensely.  Bottom line -- it sounds psychological.  Don't do anything
that can be construed as punishment, but get some psychological help.

    You are ALL going to *blast* me for this suggestion... but:

    Have you considered a chiropractor?  I am NOT saying this is a 100%
    guarantee, but it is worth a try (even Dear Abby has written about it in
    her column).  Sometimes the nerves that normally trigger the response
    for us to know we have to go to the bathroom are not functioning
    properly, and a chiropractor can sometimes help this situation.

    BUT... as most have already said, Please do not punish him, or make him
    feel any worse than he does already.  Wearing diapers (unless he REALLY
    wants to) is a very degrading thing... I know from personal experience,
    as when I have a terrible cold and am coughing all the time, I have to
    wear adult diapers because I lose all control of my muscles... and am
    constantly wetting my pants (this has started since I had surgery, and
    there is nothing that can be done for me, thank goodness it only
    happens when I am coughing a lot).

    Michael Landon was a bed wetter up into his Jr. high/high school days,
    and he turned out OK!

    My son wet the bed until he was 12.  His problem was he slept just too
    soundly.  The doctor told me if he didn't stop by the time he was 16!
    then we had a problem.  Quite a few members of my family (mostly male)
    were bed wetters which the doctor also said was hereditary.  We also
    tried every "cure" in the book.  We even tried a reward system. 
    Nothing worked.  I just had to wait it out.
    
    Marie

    To Marie...
    
    At what age did he finally stop? (Assuming he has)
    
    
    To Cheryl...
    
    Our eldest son, Josh, is only 6.5 and sleeps more soundly than we could
    have ever imagined. He had a babysitter last nite, and she is infamous
    (with us only, of course) for not tucking the diaper he wears (at his
    request) inside the diaper wrap. We had to get him up because he was
    soaked. This entailed getting him out of a top bunk, taking off his
    pj's, washing him down and drying him, putting on a dry diaper, putting
    on dry pj's, and changing his bed. He remembers absolutely nothing of
    all this! His eyes were barely open, and he was like a dead weight
    through this all. That's how soundly he sleeps! We do not make a big
    deal of it, and it doesn't really bother him yet. May as he gets older,
    but we'll deal with it then.
    
    Now... does any one know if you can get really *big* diaper wraps
    anywhere?? Josh is 4 ft. 3 inches tall, and weighs about 60 -65 lbs.,
    at not quite 7 yrs. old! He does *not* want to go without a diaper, as
    he wakes up in the morning sopping wet and freezing cold as a result of
    the wetness. He is able to help change his bed, and willingly does so.
    But he's *stuffed* into the diaper wraps he now wears, and the velcro
    frequently gives way as he moves in his sleep. We could go with the
    smallest size of "adult" diapers, but they don't seem to fit him really
    well, and he leaks with them (consistently). Any suggestions? Baby
    diapers and pull-ups are much too small. He requires 4 cloth diapers
    inside the diaper wrap to keep him dry 50% of the time. Any help people
    could suggest would be gratefully listened to!
    
    --dave--

    I don't know what adult diapers are like...but if they are like the 
    baby ones....can't you masking tape them to the size you need?

    Dave (.11)
    
    I don't think I've seen diaper-wraps as large as you need them...
    but I will check the ads (I have back issues of Mothering magazine,
    which has ads for every wrap made anywhere.)
    
    Gee, I was starting to get impatient with my 4.5-year-old for
    wetting the bed so often; now I see it's common. I do what Cheryl
    suggests: put a rubber sheet over the bedsheet and skip using a
    top sheet all together. In summer I will use a cotton half-sheet
    over the rubber sheet to keep him cooler. This saves on laundry.
    
    Lucy

    Lucy, Cheryl, and anyone else who makes beds that way....
    
    don't the blankets on *top* of the kids get wet?? Seems ours get
    wet about 10% of the time, even *with* a top sheet!
    
    --dave--

Re. .14 Dave:  Yes the blankets get wet too.  That is why I don't use blankets
but use a washable cotton comforter (a duvet over here).  I have two so one
can be in the wash while the other one is on the bed.  This is no longer a
problem since Mark has decided that he doesn't like the hassle and would rather
wear diapers.

Re .11 Dave: Ah yes, the diaper problem.  I can only buy one size of adult 
diaper over here and they are enormous.  We (actually Mark puts it on himself)
just tuck the excess around the back.  I would dearly love to find a cheaper
solution.  These things cost almost a franc ($.75) a piece.  I have tried a
rubber lined panty with a diaper insert but they leak.  Most of the rubber pants
are too small (baby size) or two big (adult size).  I am considering making my
own since the diaper liners are real cheap.  It would have to be something that 
fits snugly (like closed with velcro) to stop leaks.

I figure I am lucky to find adult diapers at all.  They only just came on the 
market.  Most adult aids against incontinence expect only minor leakage and
are inappropriate for night use.

Dave, Markus is also a very sound sleeper.  When I used the alarm pad,
I would hold this horrible alarm which had woken the whole house with the
dog barking and everything right up to his ear and he wouldn't wake.  I would
shake him and get him at least semi conscious to turn it off.  Then we would
have to wake him up with cold face cloths, etc.  It is important when using this
method to get the child completely awake.  This would happen as often as three
times a night.  It is worse than a newborn because of the trauma of all the
noise.  I was literally a nervous wreck.  It had no effect on Markus whatsoever.

By the way Markus, at 11, is a normal size- 150 cm tall and about 38 kg.

    Dave (.14),
    
    Yes, the blanket does get wet sometimes. I too use a washable
    (cotton/poly mix) comforter and/or cotton blanket that can be
    washed and dried easily. So a typical day's wash (for Daniel)
    consists of rubber sheet, pajamas, and perhaps blanket. Sometimes
    he even manages to get the pillow, or his teddy bear! Fortunately
    all are washable.
    
    I looked for ads for extra-large diaper covers; didn't find any.
    There must have been 15 different makes of covers, most of them
    describe their largest size as fitting kids over 30 or 32 lbs.
    The largest said "35 lbs +" -- not big enough, I bet. I'll keep 
    my eyes open.
    
    Lucy

    I sure as heck wouldn't punish the boy.  If it's attention that you
    think he wants, then for pete's sake, what's wrong with that?  But, if
    that's truly what you think, then I wouldn't make a big deal (negative
    or positive) over the bedwetting.  This way, the attention he thought
    he was going to get (neg. or pos.) backfires.
    
    But, I really don't believe this boy would wet all over himself just to
    get your attention.  
    
    I remember when my mom remarried and my youngest sister was about 2
    years old at the time.  My step-dad was very (I mean very) angry at my
    little sister for wetting the bed and her pants during the day.  So, he
    would spank her butt so hard, that I nearly slapped him myself when I
    saw him do it.  The way I was raised, I was not to question my parents. 
    I cried for a long time over this.
    
    So, anyway all this ridiculous potty training technique led what I
    believe to my sister's fear later.  She wet the bed at night until she
    was almost 9 years old.  Also, sometimes she would sleep with my mom,
    when dad was working at night.  And then her own bed when he wasn't. 
    So all the bed swapping wasn't such a great idea neither.
    
    Believe me, she did not intentionally wet the bed.  Luckily, my parents
    did not punish her or reprimand her at this time.  Just washed the
    sheets.

    I haven't read all the responses and maybe you've already gotten this
    but.... I have 2 things to suggest.
    
    My neice at age 7 was wetting the bed. The doctors told my brother
    that what was going on was related to sleep stages. That is, she was
    partially waking but not fully waking. In the process, her bladder got
    the signal to release and did. In her case it was related to adenoids
    and snoring. 
    
    What I am suggesting is that maybe he is having trouble with sleep phase 
    transitions and is partially wakening. Making sure that he is not
    overtired may help. Is he having bad dreams ?
    
    In my own case, my mother tells me I wet the bed until I had my tonsils
    out. What I remember is wetting my pants long after that. (As I
    reassured my neice, wetting your pants doesn't mean your going to grow
    up to be a freak. I was probably 10 before it was over.) I think what
    was happening with me was a combination of a frequent need to urinate
    (still have) and a strong desire to not interrupt my play. I don't
    think I wet in school but I remember wet pants when I was at play. I
    was not rebellious, not stupid, not bad, and not troubled but I
    couldn't get my play versus interrupting play priorities straight and
    always thought I could hold it longer than I could. It took me a long
    time to realize that I had to pay attention to the need to pee feeling.
    Then I could change the behavior.
    
    Go easy on him. Put up with the inconvenience. If he were younger you
    would consider it part of the territory that comes with parenting.
    Tell him that lots of grown ups (he can call me) had the problem when
    they were younger and that it won't last forever. Don't let it become
    part of the way he identifies himself.
    
    Good luck. I'm sure you want to do what's best for him and it is hard
    to have the patience. 
    
    I'm sure you are taking close note of when it is happening. Maybe some 
    scheduled pit stops during the day would help.

   I don't have any personal experience in this matter, but I do remember
reading an artical in Parenting magazine about a year ago.  The artical
was about a boy around 7 years old that wet the bed nightly.  His parents
took him to a specialist that dealt with this kind of thing. What she told
his parents was that his problem was probably due to a small bladder and
week muscles that control wetting.  She set up the alarm thing at night
that was triggered when it got wet, but during the day she had him on a
little program that was suppose to strengthen his controlling muscles and
stretch his bladder.  Everyday when the boy came home from school he was
allowed to pick a can of soda (any kind he wanted) and he was suppose to 
drink the whole thing.  Then he was not suppose to go to the bathroom at
first urge.  He was suppose to hold it as long as he possably could and then
go to the bathroom.  The story had a happy ending.  I know that there was
alot more to it than my little description above, but it is still food for
thought.  I'll try and see if I still have a copy of the article.

   Best of luck to all of you who handle this problem daily...

Lisa

                       <<< Note 104.0 by AIMHI::CONNOR >>>
                -< 5 1/2 YEAR OLD WETTING THE BED AND PANTS??? >-

	We've had various problems along these lines.  We initially
had a problem at night.  While our son was in the 3-5 year range,
the doctors just advised he would grow out of it.  I found that
I was quite overwhelmed with all the extra work it entailed, and
sometimes would yell and storm and take it out on my son.  I discovered
that when I would consciously make it ok, the problem would abate.

	Also, around 5 years old, I found a massage technique
that stimulates the bladder meridian in acupressure systems.
It runs down both sides of the spine, and then down the outer
front thighs and calves.  In the morning, just as my son was
waking up, I would rub his back and run my thumbs down the spine
and legs.  That seemed to wake him up enough to get him to the
bathroom on time, and stimulate the nerves.  It's hard to tell
if it worked effectively or not, but it certainly didn't hurt to try.
The night-time wetting has stopped.

	When I had my second child, day-time wetting began, and
we're still searching for a solution.  We've tried some tests and
some medications, and rewards instead of punishment.  It seems to
correspond to a play period in the afternoon, and since it has
so little obvious physiological origin, we think it must be stress-
related.  We're going to try a different after-school arrangement 
next year, and a different camp over the summer.

	These experiences may not apply to your situation, and
we're just feeling our way around too.  My doctor and my husband
make me wrong about my techniques (but provide precious little
in the way of alternative), and that may be having an effect.
You need to be encouraged to keep trying realistic ways to improve
family life and your child's self-esteem.

    He is a foster child.  That suggests that as earlier notes have 
    mentioned he is going through some tough adjustment times.  The
    Dr. already assured you he doesn't have a physicial problem so
    that leaves either deep sleep issues (doesn't wake up to pee
    because he is too deeply asleep) or emotional issues.
    
    I strongly urge you NOT to punish him. If he IS doing it to get
    attention then he certainly is succeeding isn't he?
    
    My son Matt at five still wets the bed.... maybe 1 night in 3.
    We make a minimum issue of it.  HE decides on any given night
    whether to wear diaper pants or not.  If he guesses wrong then he
    helps to clean things up... no big deal.... just something that
    has to be done (clean things up).
    
    If your son is wetting during the day as you indicate he is, that is
    under his conscious control.  I would ignore it.  Yup, let him run
    around in wet pants.  He will get attention all right... from his
    FRIENDS.  My bet is that the daytime wetting will will stop fast if you
    ignore it and as much as possible let HIM live with the consequences.
    
    The night wetting is not under his control.  You might want to try what
    we did with Matt, which is outlined above.
    
    Jeff

    Our son Robin is in first grade....he's about 6 2/3.
    Until about a month ago, he wet the bed pretty regularly.
    Then he was dry for about a week, maybe wet once, and has
    been dry since!  Its amazing...

    We're also of the school "dont make a big deal out of it".
    He has 3 younger siblings (our kids are 2, 3, 4, and 6)...and
    our youngest was the first to be regularly dry all night...she's
    got an amazing bladder, can hold her pee for a long time.  About
    6 months ago, we started an award system.....3 kids dry at night,
    they got some gum (and always shared it with whoever wet).  All
    4 kids dry all night.....Hot Fudge Sundays!  We went 4 months
    without any sundays.  Then one....maybe about a month later
    another one.

    Now we're getting an 'all dry night' about once a week...we'll
    have to stop the program before too long.

    They all get there eventually!
    bob

Re. .22
>    They all get there eventually!
>    bob


Markus is going on 12 and it is still every night :-(

ccb

>Markus is going on 12 and it is still every night :-(

oh....it must be hard to stay cheerful about it.
Do you walk him when you go to bed? I'm surf if I didn't walk
Robin, he'ld still be wet regularly.  He's SUCH a sound sleeper.
I envy him that.
bob

    If you check through the last version of Parenting you will discover
    that Markus and I have been through every tactic known to man and then
    some.  It's not a big deal.  It only gets to you if you let it.  He is
    so much fun in other ways (and there are also many things about him
    that are a MUCH greater trial than bedwetting :-) that I guess I'm not
    bothered much anymore.  Who know's, one day he might even outgrow it
    :-) (Yeh, and I know, water runs uphill :-)
    
    But thank you for your kind thoughts :-)
    
    ccb

Well, as you may have seen, I have posted the bedwetter's alarm system for sale.
Markus has decided to, in his words, "get a new life"!  He went into his room
three days ago and this morning he showed us the finished product.  He had
cleaned out every single cupboard and shelf and everything was neat as a pin.
He filled up one 110 lt garbage bag and took all his little boy toys to the
basement.  One thing he doesn't want anymore is the bed wetting alarm which 
was in his closet.

Not that his wetting has changed but I think it has to do with a mind set that 
is encouraging.  I think he WANTS to be adult now and maybe this is what is
needed.  A few weeks ago he was dry for almost the entire week.  Then I 
suggested he try it without a diaper and he flooded the place.  Discouraging.
So we had a talk and I said maybe it IS now possible because maybe he is
entering puberty and the changes to his system will make it possible for him.
(He's now 12.5).  We talked it over and he decided to take over "his" problem.
So, I don't even ask him anymore.  If he runs out of diapers and wants more,
it's his problem to write it on the list.

A few days after this and just before he decide to change his whole life, he
had a real long face and, when pressed, broke down crying, saying he was
"minable" (hopeless) and had so many problems.  A few days later, he decides
to "get a life" :-)  

I hope his "new life" works, for his sake.

Cheryl

    At his request, I took 8-year-old Nathan to a pediatric Urologist
    yesterday.  After a full history/exam, he recommended a medicine called
    Ditropan.  What he said was that the treatment takes about 2 months,
    that there are no side effects which are worth worrying about, and that
    it is 80% effective (no relapse).

    According to the doctor, the medicine treats the condition by directly
    causing the bladder to enlarge.

    Nathan is very excited about this, but I'm frankly a little skeptical. 
    The doctor made it sound too easy.  

    I wonder if this treatment is so easy, effective, and available (it's
    been around for a while), then why isn't it more commonly discussed
    (here, for instance).  Also, why didn't our regular Pediatrician
    recommend it.

    (Actually, our regular Pediatrician recommended the specialist only
    after repeated nagging and has stated clearly "in no case" would he
    recommend drug-treatment of any kind for an 8-year-old with this
    condition.

    Does anyone have experience with this treatment.  I expect Ditropan is
    the brand-name.  The drug may go under other names as well.

    L.

LEt me know if it works.  I thought we had tried everything known to man :-)
Markus still laughs over some of the things I tried with him.  The hot pepper
seeds are his favorite.

Maybe if Nathan believes it will work, it will.  

Sign me hopeless...

Cheryl

    By the way, I don't want to depress you, Cheryl, but the Urologist said
    that the problem is not uncommon even for children in their teens, and
    that he's treating a patient now who is 18 (this, he confessed, was
    quite rare).
    
    L.-who-stopped-wetting-circa-age-14/15

    Matt at 5 1/2 still wets.  We have been trying the ignore it approach
    except for the required cleaning/laundry.  That is, we have not made
    a big deal of it or punished him or delibretely made him feel badly
    about it.
    
    Help.  Last night he wet twice!  For a while 4-5 years old he wet
    once or twice a week.  Now its 4-5 times a week with some nights twice
    in the same night.  We have restricted fluids after 6 PM made sure he
    went right before bedtime etc.  Nothing works consistently.  My
    wife maintains there is nothing wrong and that he simply will outgrow
    it if we wait long enough.  Maybe she is right.... but I am not 
    convinced she is.
    
    How much does the Sears Alarm cost?  Has it worked for others?  Is
    it worthy buying and trying?  Matt is a deep sleeper, but I do think
    the alarm would wake him.
    
    Should we make him do as much of the clean up work as possible, or
    have him simply change himself into clean p j's and wash himself off?
    
    I keep hearing that this is a 'sleep disorder' (too deep a sleeper)
    and since wetting is out of his conscious control he has NO control
    over it whatsoever.  To me it implies that unless his sleeping pattern
    lightens up as he get older or the alarm wakes him up it is inevitiable
    he will continue to wet?
    
    My wife doesn't like drugs so won't even consider the medication which
    someone mentioned in an earlier note.
    
    Jeff

Jeff,

I think I've written the book on bedwetters in this conference.  Markus is 12 
and wets every night.  I suggest you read back over some of the rest of this
string and the string in the previous version.  Sure they outgrow it.  I'm
thinking Markus might when he is 40 or 50 years old :-)  We also had periods
where we thought he was stopping but then something would set it off again.

I suggest you read Ferber's book on sleep problems.  It has a rather extensive
section on enuresis.  I actually wrote to him to see whether he had a colleague
in Geneva and got a nic letter in reply.  Unfortunately it's a long way to the
US And I wouldn't consider treating him except in French.

I have tried the alarm.  I know it has worked for many people.  It didn't work
for us and I think part of the problem is that my husband has problems sleeping 
and, since I work full time, I need my sleep too.  The alarm usually involves
getting the whole family up several times a night, every night.  I was so
stressed out, I turned into a monster.  I am selling it now if you want a cheaper
deal than Sears (where I bought it).  You'd have to wait until June when my
husband makes his next US trip.

Good luck.  This is really trying, especially for the poor kid.

Cheryl

    I looked all the way back to note 100 for a topic on bedwetting, but 
    couldn't find one, so here goes.
    
    My son who is almost 5 wets the bed most every night.  Last night, he
    did it twice.  And I hate doing laundry!  my wife and I have tried
    everything including waking him up before we go to bed, and making him
    sit on the toilet.
    
    We have tried to show him how to do the laundry, in hopes that we could 
    make him do the wash if he does wet, but that is to hard to stick with.
    
    My latest brainstorm is to make a chart with stars for each night he
    does not wet, then offering him prizes for a weeks worth of stars, but
    I know him, and doubt this will work.
    
    Any advice? 
    
    
    Also, I made the mistake of offering him a dollar sometimes to help me
    out with things, and I fear he is the most greedy kid in the world.
    Now if his mother tells him to pick up, or something, he says that he
    will for a dollar, and whines if you say he will do it because he is
    responsible for his messes.
    
    How do I offset this little ones greed?  Or should I call it ambition?
    
    Thanks
    

If you wish to reply to the bedwetting aspects of the previous entry, please 
use this note.  If you wish to reply to the "greedy kid" aspect, please use 
note 188.

Clay Satow
co-mod

    (I will reply to both aspects here but only in so far as it relates to
    bedwetting :-)
    
    First of all, divorce the bedwetting from the greed.  Bedwetting or
    lack of it is nothing to be rewarded for or punished for.  If you have
    eliminated all problems, there is no unusual stress in his life, there
    is no infection, etc. then it is something completely beyond his
    control.  I am speaking as the mother of a 12 year old who, until
    recently, wet every single night.
    
    Rewarding for not wetting doesn't help if he can't control it.  Markus
    only got frustrated when he saw the lack of stars appearing on his
    chart.  You can read all the things I tried and Mark tried in this
    string of notes and in V3.  There are also suggestions as to how to
    handle the laundry problem.  In the end, Markus voluntarily wore an
    adult diaper.  Even though he has stopped wetting, he is still wearing
    the diaper.  I have left it completely in his control as to when he
    chooses to leave off the diaper.  
    
    I used to have MArkus help clean the bed but in the end felt that was
    too much like punishment.  Afterall, Dirk doesn't change his bed nor do
    i change mine (the cleaning lady does that :-).  I did insist that he
    keep his body clean and take a shower in the morning.  That is a matter
    of personal hygene, not punishment.
    
    Take the time to read through all these replies and V3.  I am sure you
    will get some insight into the problem.  Maybe you won't be able to
    cure it, but at least you can gain some understanding.
    
    Cheryl

My son, Jason, was 4 and wetting the bed every night.  At his annual checkup my
wife and I stressed our concern regarding his self-esteem and the cleanup
problem during the morning rush.   We were pretty sure that he had a problem as
my brother and I were "bed wetters" and there is a strong hereditary influence. 
We had heard about tofrinal (inhaler) but didn't want to take what we felt was
a drastic step.  Our pediatrician agreed and would not recommend the drug until
he was older and we had tried the alarm.  He gave us some information and we
ordered the alarm (I think it was about $50) through the mail.  We explained
the process to Jason and after 1-2 week he was on his way to dry mornings. 
He'll be 6 in February and he's probably had one wet night in the past 4-6
months.

But, it takes a real commitment for this to succeed.  Even with a 6 and a 3 yr
old I'm not accustomed to getting up in the middle of the night but when the
alarm went off both my wife and I got up and and made sure that Jason knew that
both his parents were there and we were trying to help him.  When the alarm
triggered the first thing we did was comfort him and unplug the damn alarm then
we got him to the pot and made sure that he finished emptying his bladder. 
He'd want to go back to sleep but we brought him to the bathroom so that he
would associate waking up with going to the bathroom and peeing.  I remember
carrying him to the bathroom once or twice and standing him in front of the
pot.  Once he got to the pot he usually had quite a bit left and he emptied his
bladder.  Only on 1 or 2 occasions did he trigger the alarm twice in one night. 
We used pullups and attached the wires to the inside so usually the pee was
limited to the pullup (you'd stop quick too if a buzzer was ringing next to
your ear) and we had no sheets or jammies to change.  After going to the pot we
had him put underpants on and put him back to bed without the alarm because his
bladder was empty.  That was used as an incentive to go to the bathroom and
finish peeing; "if you don't go you'll have to put pullups and the the alarm
back on".

I think we kept using the alarm for about another week of dry nights.  Its
great waking up in the morning now and seeing the yellow water in the pot in
the bathroom next to Jason's room knowing that he got up all by himself and
went pee.  One of the joys of parenthood! 

So, the alarm method worked great for us and I highly recommend it.   One thing
that I did was tape a hankerchief over the buzzer to muzzle the sound as it was
REALLY LOUD.

    Bill





    

    My son has this problem. He is 9 years old and has all the symptoms of
    bedwetters. Very heavy sleep, allergy symptoms, very quick to go to
    sleep, attention problems at home and school,etc...
    
    We had a company visit us last night to explain their "cure" process. They
    went through a lengthy discussion of the problem and took notes on
    Brandon's (my son) personal behavior patterns etc...
    
    Their approach to the problem is to use a alarm device, augmented by a
    personal counselor at their remote "help desk" location. I associated
    this to the CSC's and remote support offerings from Digital. They have
    a very well documented approach to recovery, with case histories and 
    reference accounts. They tie the problem to a sleep disorder and have
    charts showing the normal sleep pattern and the the "wetters" pattern. 
    The REM state is clearly missing from the wetters pattern, whereas it
    occurs 5 times a night on average for normal sleepers. The only time
    the wetters come out of deep sleep is for a 15-45 second duration
    when wetting the bed. Otherwise, they remain in very deep sleep. They
    say the sleep disorder will revert to normal if we cure the wetting
    problem. A side benefit is an improvement for the attention deficit
    problems and "staying on task" at home/school.
    
    They indicate the average cure rate is 98%, over 3-4 months. They have
    a money back gaurantee. The cost is app.1400.00. 
    
    The company is Pacific International. Has anyone used or had any
    experience with them?
    
    BTW... I think we will first opt for the 50$ buzzer to see if it helps.
    
    Richard Drye

    
    The first thing required is an exam by his doctor to make sure
    there isn't anything physical causing the bedwetting.....
    
    

    
    I've been told I'm TOO tolerant of this.  My oldest son wet the bed
    till he was 6, and my middle son just turned 6, and still wears pull
    ups.  Their pediatrician doesn't see a problem in either case, and
    since the only "inconvenience" to me is the cost of the pull ups, it
    doesn't particularly bother me.  And certainly not $1400.00 worth!
    
    A long time ago, when we were thinking about potty training Jason, the
    Dr asked me if we're done with the "food battles" yet.  Apparantly
    around 2-3 there's a normal developmental stage where they STOP
    fighting you about food and what to eat/not eat because Mom/Dad
    suggested it.  They said that there was no sense even TRYING the potty
    training till he got through the food-wars.  And they were right.  When
    he finally agreed that he needed to eat SOMETHING, his toilet training
    came right along.  During the day.
    
    Now, we've still been in the battle of WHAT to eat, and only just
    recently has he begun to try new foods.  I distinctly remember this
    phase with Chris as well, because it was *SO* unlike him to want to try
    anything "new".   Now that Jason is trying new foods (And OHMIGAWD he
    LIKES them!), he seems to be doing better at night.
    
    Now, maybe it's all hogwash, but it seems to be playing true with my
    children.  He's not even really aware that it's making a difference,
    but I notice that he's drier in the morning, and that he wakes more
    easily (in the past, I couldn't wake him for ANYTHING!!).  Once he gets
    to the point where I can wake him, or the baby wakes him, I'll know
    that his sleep patterns have developed well enough to ALLOW him the
    consciousness to stop himself before he wets.  
    
    I don't know how it all ties in with the food thing, but it seems to.  
    Obviously my boys aren't 9 years old, and I suppose in a few years if
    it was still going on, I'd be more concerned, but after reading other
    notes in here, I'm convinced that this is pretty much an individual
    thing that will happen (staying dry) when it's ready to happen, and
    pretty much not before.  Ask Marcus' Mom!
    
    Good Luck!!
    

    Has anyone heard of bedwetting being related to milk products?  I
    read a small clip in a magazine a couple of months ago from a lady
    who was having problems with her 6 year old wetting the bed.  She
    tried everything and happened to come across an article that related
    milk products to bed wetting.  She immediately took her son off of
    all milk products and within a week he had stopped wetting the bed?
    
    It said that her pediatrician, when asked, said that milk products
    can make you sleep sounder - hence the accidents?
    
    -/Andrea

    an addition to my note:
    
    The reason that the milk products supposedly made the child sleep
    more soundly had something to do with an allergic reaction?
    
    I'm going to have to find the article...
    

    Several of the previous replies refer to a 'nite time alarm'
    for detecting wetness and helping with bed wetting.

    if its not too expensive, I'ld like to give it a shot.  Robin
    is still wetting about 3-4 times a week, and his sister Molly
    wets every night.

    Yesterday I went to SEars, Toys-R-Us, several discount stores...
    none of them carried it.  Perhaps I didn't know what to ask for.

    does anyone have an old one they want to sell?  Can anyone suggest
    where I might get one?
    thanks
    bob

    From an expert on all-matter re. bed-wetting:

    They cost about $50.  You buy them at drug stores.  Ask a pharmacist at
    a Walgreen's CVS, etc.

    Do they work ?  Sometimes.

    We're working a new angle with our 9-year-old.  We've had him on a new
    medicine for the last month or so.  It's a nasal spray that's taken
    every night before bedtime.  He has gone from wetting every night to
    95% dry.  The pediatric urologist warned us that stopping the medicine
    will likely result in the behavior coming back.  He has suggested using
    the medicine for 1-2 months until the child is used to being completely
    dry.  Then the child is "weaned" from it and the alarm is used.  He
    claims a very high percentage of success with this approach.

    We'll start the alarm in August after vacation.

    If that works, then, we'll start the same plan with our daughter (also
    wet every night).

    L.-who-was-wet-until-puberty

    
    I never tried the alarms, so am no help there, but hopefully can
    provide a little moral support.  
    
    It seems to be somewhat "hereditary", and more of a sleep issue than
    anything else.  I have 2 older boys, one's 9 and one's 6.  Chris was
    wet until he was 6.  Jason *JUST* started staying dry last w/end.  I
    had plenty of people trying to tell me what was wrong with them, and
    what I was doing wrong, and that they weren't "trained" right, and I
    was just being too lazy to "MAKE" them be dry at night etc etc.
    
    Neither one of my boys ever woke up "dry".  If I tried to wake them to
    get them to go during the night, it was pretty much IMPOSSIBLE!  They
    just wouldn't wake up or wouldn't/couldn't go.  When Chris was about 5,
    I just gave up on the whole thing, and deserted the morning battle of
    "wet sheets"/wet clothes, and put him in diapers/pull ups "forever".  I
    forget exactly what happened with him, but pretty much he decided he
    didn't want/need diapers anymore (when he was just about 6), and he's
    been dry ever since.  Last w/end the had a sleepover at ther karate
    school, and Jason was too embarassed to wear his pull-ups, so he
    decided to "give it a try", and much to everyone's surprise, he woke up
    dry, and MUCH more comfortable, and with the exception of 1 night, he's
    been dry ever since.  He was 6 in Feb.
    
    I never said/did anything to try to get him to try harder.  I firmly
    believe that his body was just "ready".  
    
    I don't know how the drugs work either, but with both kids, the pedi
    was pretty adamant that it's NOT a problem, mostly just an
    inconvenience, and as long as there's not a medical problem, it's not
    anything that's worth worrying about, or much that can be done.  Of
    course there's plenty of "friends" who'll disagree with the Dr.
    
    Go with what feels comfortable, but I think that you'll be a lot
    happier if you can just try to take the stress out of it and "accept"
    that it may be a fact of life for you for a while.  Jason was
    responsible for his own pull-ups, and anything else that ended up
    "wet", he put in the laundry.  We just tried to be "matter of fact"
    about it, and put him in diapers/pull-ups to prevent the mess, and it
    sure helped ME anyway, not have to get upset about the extra laundry
    and all that.  
    
    Good luck!
    

    thanks for the comments/support.

    Our 3 older kids are adopted...so i have no 'genetic' data.
    the age when they their mom/dad stopped wetting the bed is
    certainly one of the things the agencies dont provide.

    the youngest 2 kids have been dry for a long time.  the two older
    ones (6 and 8) wet pretty often.  The oldest (boy, Robin) just seems
    like a REAL sound sleeper.  and Molly has a real small bladder.

    We dont put a LOT of pressure on them....they are supposed to strip
    their beds if the sheets are wet.  Molly started wearing pullups
    again about a year ago (her idea).  but she'ld love to stay dry
    all night.  Robin's dry sometimes.

    It may be that there is nothing you can do to have an effect on
    when they can stay dry all night reliably.  I tend to think that
    letting Robin and Molly wear diapers for a REAL long time
    caused them not to pay a lot of attention to when they had to pee
    during the day.  Maybe it had nothing to do with it.  the younger
    2 had a big reason to get out of diapers early.....they didn't want
    to be thought of as younger!  so when Robin and Molly quit, the younger
    2 quit right away.  and they started being dry all night right after that.

    I think Robin and MOlly will want to give this a try...for their
    sake more than ours.
    bob

    Bob,
    
    There's also "bladder-stretching" exercises that can be done, that may
    be a bog help to Molly.  Your Dr should have more information on this.
    I think the basic idea is you just always try to hold it absolutely as
    long as you can, and (in theory) this helps fill, thus stretch, your
    bladder more.  As I said, my two just won't wake up for anything ....
    they never even woke up when they wet the bed, which was a clear sign
    to me that they were SOUND asleep.  Do either Robin or Molly wake up
    when they wet?  
    
    I'm anxious to hear how you do with the alarms!!  
    
    Good Luck!
    Patty

    -.1> There's also "bladder-stretching" exercises that can be done, that may
       > be a bog help to Molly.
              ^^^
    
    :-)
    Leslie 

    I'll let you know how they work...we're off for a week at
    overnight, family camp and will start when we get back.

    We do often try to get MOlly to 'hold it' a little longer
    than she wants to.....hard to know if it helps.

    I think Robin often wets in the early morning...and I
    think its mainly from laziness.....he'll admit that he woke up
    having to pee and just didn't feel like getting up.  but
    sometimes he's wet and sound asleep when I walk him at 11PM.
    bob

	To order one of the bed wetting monitors, you can call
		1-800-346-7283 - 

	They run around 50.00.

	/Robin

    I have a wierd problem.  My daughter (4 1/2) has been toilet trained
    since she was 2 1/2.  I had no problem training her and she has been
    religiously using the potty except of late.  She has had few accidents
    during the night but they are very rare and far apart.
    
    Of late, she has started wetting her pants almost every time she wants
    to go.  She will be playing (not intensively) or just walking or
    reading the book and then she has an accident.  This started 2 weeks
    back and since then the frequency has increased.  She is least bothered
    with the wet dress and continues to do what she is doing without even
    feeling the urge to change.  I have to remind her to go in and change. 
    There has been no change in the environment or her schedule.  Is this
    just a phase????  She is not self-conscious about it and when I ask her
    why she does it she just says "I don't know".  Anyone had experience
    with this.  What worked???
    
    Thanks for listening....
    
    Jay.

    Jay,
    
    Yes, we went through this with our son when he was between 4 and
    5.  I think the most important thing to do before you devise a
    "cure" for the problem is to determine why it is happening and
    I think that for every child it is different.  For some children
    it is due to inability to 'hold it' til they get to the bathroom,
    maybe a urinary tract infection, not knowing when they need to
    go or, like my son, laziness.  Nathan was just too busy to go
    and he, too, was not selfconscious about it.  
    
    We tried being gentle with him and saying that he should just
    come in the house and change.  This was until we realized that
    he only wet his pants when he was playing with his friends
    and didn't want to stop to go to the bathroom.  So, we told
    him that if he wet his pants while playing with a certain person
    or doing a certain activity, he would not be able to play with
    them or do it for the rest of that day and the next day.  It
    worked.  We have not had a problem since.
    
    Of course, there is the rare instance when you are out and can not
    find a bathroom. Accidents happen but they are few and far between.
    
    That's our experience. 
    
    

    We've been through this with my (almost) 5 year old too, drives me
    crazy.  We have firmly adopted the rule that "after you use the 
    bathroom, you may.....".  No exceptions, no negotiations.  Period.
    
    Our daughter flips and is extremely upset when she has an accident,
    which is good, I think but seems to be so busy she forgets till
    it's too late.  Usually too late is at another house where she's
    not familiar with the quickest route to the bathroom, which basically
    insures an accident.
    
    At this point, using the bathroom first has helped a great deal.
    She is so anxious to go do (whatever, play, go to Nana's, etc.)
    she is motivated to use the bathroom.
    
    Good luck, I empathize.

    I have tried to remind her wherever go to use the bathroom.  Even after
    asking her to use the potty just before we go out I make sure that she
    goes to the potty right after she arrives at the destination - say, for
    Spag's (which is 5-10 minute drive for us).
    
    I have tried to tell her firmly, ignore it, remind her, reward her if
    she stays dry for a day ... to no avail.  Some times I have told her that 
    she cannot go to the nursery school if she has so many accidents.  She
    is least bothered about it and keeps on playing, or reading, or
    watching TV. There are times when she has to go and I remind her about
    it.  She goes in the direction of the bathroom but starts playing with
    something on the way or with her baby sister.... During this time she
    would have pee'ed in her pants.  I am at my wits end on this....
    
    - J. 

    First, IMHO, you should get her checked to make sure that there's no
    urinary tract infections.  I don't know if you've ever suffered from
    one of those, but I have, and let's just say that "accidents happen".
    Even to those who have been potty trained for years <ahem>.

    Years ago I lived with a man who had a then-5 year old daughter, who
    also would much rather {play|watch TV|read|whatever} than take the
    time out for potty break.  So she's just pee where she was.  Including
    at one of the old DEC outings to Canobie Lake, but that's another story ;-)
    So anyway, we told her that if she couldn't pee like a big girl, she'd
    have to wear diapers.  

    I guess this made a pretty big impression, because when we dropped
    her back off at home after the weekend, the first thing she told her
    mother was that she "was a big girl, and won't need any baby's diapers!"
    
    And, although I'd love to say there were no more accidents, the 
    frequency certainly lessened to the point that they were real 
    accidents, and not deliberate.

    of course, YMMV.

		- Lorri

    I have had her checked for Urinary tract infection.  I have also told
    her that I might have to put her back on diapers if this continues. 
    Her reply to it is : Ok, Mommy.  Let us go to BJ's to get me some
    diapers.  Can I wear them now!!!
    
    What do you say to this!  She has something to say for anything I say.
    
    J.

Rule #1 of discipline - never make a threat you aren't prepared to carry out.

(Now, I won't claim I've never broken this rule, but it is a goal!)

I would consider getting diapers for her (you will probably need to get pullups
or night-weight training pants, to be big enough for her?).  It would keep
the "accidents" contained, so there would be less mess to clean up, and
if it's treated matter-of-factly, she may decide it's not so neat to wear
them after all.  I dunno.  We had very smooth daytime toilet training, so I
can't say for sure what will be successful for you.  One of my sons needed
diapers or training pants at night until he was 7, but that was not something
that he had any conscious control over.  The daytime thing is obviously a
different situation.

Good luck!
	cheryl

    
    We tried the reminding to go to the bathroom bit also.  It didn't
    work.  We switched to the 'you WILL go to the bathroom right now'
    tactic and it worked much better.  He had no choice, no excuses,
    no diversions.  But, this did not solve the problem of his 
    laziness.  It just solved the problem of wet pants.  We did not
    know exactly when he had to'go' each time so there were 'accidents'
    until he decided to stop.  YMMV
    
    Pam

    Is there something going on in your family that might be affecting her
    in this way?  A new child, a move, family members fighting?
    
    My daughter had some regression in the last few months.  She wanted to
    use a bottle when her baby brother did.  It lasted a month or so and we
    gave her one with water only.  She finally stopped asking for one,
    right around her 5th birthday, and since we are about to wean the baby
    from bottles, she won't even have the visual reminder.
    
    If we had this situation, I would give her a logical consequence to the
    accidents, and not be punitive about it.  Like make her clean up the
    area, get fully changed, and perhaps even load the laundry into the
    washing machine.  Or tell her that every time she does this she needs
    to bathe to clean up.  Something that will make the accident more
    trouble than it is worth.
    
    Linking the accident to attending nursery school may not be a good
    idea, since she will link the two and may use this in the future to
    avoid going to school.
    
    Just one Mom's opinion,
    
    judy

    
    My 5 Year old had this problem last October...She just started wetting
    and I was going crazy.  For one weekend I was really upset with her
    about and couldn't believe she was reverting back to old ways.   I
    kept telling myself something is wrong - so I had her check.  Sure
    enough she had a urinary tract infection....then tests...result was
    she has Reflux.
    
    I wouldn't wait, I'd have your child checked.   My daughter felt no
    pain whatsoever to indiate an infection...but she had one.
    
    Just my .02 cents
    
    Denice

    J,
    
    Hmmmmmmm ... maybe I'm the big mean mommy, but in reading your reply, I
    still see (from your daughter's perspective) no reason WHY she should
    use the toilet.  Cause and effect, actions and consequences,
    temptations and deterrents.
    Keep telling yourself that.  She pees, mom or mom and her clean it up,
    she continues playing.  What's the big deal?!  You need a deterrent. 
    The golden rule of parenting
    
    	Children will do whatever they're allowed to get away with.
    (Actually, this applies to adults as well, but let's keep it simple for
    now)
    
    She has no reason to NOT pee her pants.  It doesn't physically bother
    her, and she doesn't "lose" anything by doing it.  I like the noter's
    approach, that if their child wet their pants, than they weren't
    allowed to play with that thing|person for the rest of the day.  Very
    real action/consequence.  
    
    She's "allowed" to get away with it because there are no consequences
    for "ignoring" it.  You KNOW that she can go by herself, and have
    determined that it's nothing medical or a simple inability.  She needs
    a REASON why it's more important (to HER!) to continue the trip to the
    bathroom, than to stop and play with the baby along the way.  
    
    It'll in the long run, also help her learn how to make appropriate
    decisions based on the information at hand.
    
    If I don't go to the bathroom, and stop and play, I'll get to play. 
    Mom might yell, but that's no big deal. (so she pees her pants)
    
    versus
    
    If I don't go the bathroom, I'll pee my pants, and then I won't be able
    to play with her at all.  )-:  ... (might just send her off to the
    bathroom quicker).
    
    OF COURSE! every child is different ... but you have to give her a
    reason to NOT pee her pants.
    
    Good Luck!
    Patty

    To find out if she's just being lazy, versus really having a problem, 
    another approach might be a reward system...start her out with say 20
    pennies.  Every time she wets her pants she must give back a penny. 
    at the end of the week if she has say 10 pennies left she gets to pick
    something out at the dollar store or get to go to McDonald's or
    someother treat that you find appropriate.  Each week you can lessen
    the amount of pennies she is allowed to lose....
    
    Roberta

    Thanks for all the good suggestions.  My husband does not like me to
    threaten her like in - If you pee in your pants then you do not get to
    play with whatever you were playing with when you pee'd in your pants. 
    He feels that those type of threats make her more stubborn like in - So
    what, I don't get to play with it today then so be it.  I will play
    with it tomorrow.  Then she starts doing it on purpose.  I liked the
    non-cash reward system.  I noticed that she likes a particular snack
    and I told her that if she did not wet her pants for one whole day then
    I would make it for her.  Guess what!!! That seems to be working.  She
    has not had any accidents for the past 2 days.  Of course, now I need
    to know how to keep motivating her.  
    
    Thanks everyone.  As I had mentioned earlier, I too felt that it must
    be something in her system like UTI and got it tested.  I had her
    tested for everything.  I knew that there was nothing physically wrong.
    
    J.

    Non --cash rewards.....skittles, m+m's, a trip to the park, roller
    skating, the movies, a video rental....
    
    Roberta

    I just got back from the doctor's with Paul who is 3 1/2.  He trained
    at 2 1/2 within a week and only wet twice since then and both times it
    was when he was sick in the middle of the night.
    
    For the past five days, Paul has wet his pants each day once.  Its a
    different times of the day.  Each time he acknowledges that he has to
    pee but doesn't get to the bathroom or his pants down in time.  He is
    really embarrassed over this also.
    
    The doctor said his urine showed no signs of infection.  I'm not sure
    what to think of this.  There has been no changes in his lifestyle and
    he is a happy child.  
    
    Any ideas?
    
    cj

    
    	Yes.
    
    	Emily went through this last summer.
    
    	Basically, she was having too much fun to bother going,
    	and each accident occured in the bathroom, one step from
    	the potty.
    
    	Without belittling her, I explained that it was her job
    	to remember to go potty, and if she forgets, I would have
    	to start taking her to the potty myself so she doesn't forget.
    
    	Apparently, that was bothersome enough, because the accidents
    	stopped immediately.
    
    	Emily was a little over 4 when this happened.