Conference moira::parenting

    My son is only 20 months old so I haven't tried this yet but 
    I've seen "Chore charts" for sale at various places.  It looks like
    they have spaces on the left side to write down different chores
    (like, brushing my teeth, washing my hands, making my bed, cleaning
    my room, etc.... ) and then across the top is the days of the week.
    You make little check marks by each chore completed and at the end of
    the day there's a place at the bottom that you (or the child) can 
    place a sticker(s) as a reward for a job well done.  The lady who
    lives across the street from me has a daycare in her home and she
    uses one of these and says "her" kids really like it - especially
    when they get to pick out their own sticker for the day.  Might
    be worth a try!   You could make your own very easily with poster
    board and use the removable stickers.   
    
    Lila
    
    

I've seen the "assigned chores" chart (including Mom/Dad!) on the refrigerator
MANY times ... with "stars" used as recognition (sometimes a gold star for
excellent performance and a red star for "effort").

A friend of ours mentioned that they were introduced to using bingo chips as
a means to reward.  That way you can give 2 chips for effort, 5 chips for a
good job, 10 chips for an excellent job.  Then they had a "rewards" chart ...
eg.:  100 bingo chips => trip to the zoo
       10 bingo chips => an extra bedtime story
(they were told not to use "food treats" as a reward).

For us, we just "warn" Juli (2-1/2) of the upcoming event (e.g. we're going to
have to pick up your toys soon) ... then we "say so" (e.g. time to pick up the
toys now) ... and either Jim/I will "help" her (but try NOT to do all the
picking up) and praise her for her help and "fine" job.  We find that Juli
gets a "high" from the praise, more than from a reward.

We also try to minimize the "damage", too.  Along the lines of "put the
crayons/books away BEFORE you dig into the toy box".  If the neighborhood
kids contributed to the backyard mess, EVERYONE picks it up BEFORE they leave
the yard and I STRONGLY ENFORCE this.  "YOU" made the mess, "YOU" (as a group)
clean it up ... and God help the kid who "splits" prematurely, because I do
get after him/her the next time they come by to play!  I tell them how unfair
it was to saddle the other kids with all the cleanup and I want equal
participation from now on.

I believe that pitching in and cleaning up begins at a VERY YOUNG age ...
if they're old enough to dig the toys out of the toy box, then they are old
enough to put them back!  Granted, a 2-year-old only gets about 30% (at best)
back into the box, however, once you start the process, it's much easier to
improve on it.

My two cents ...

Dottie

    We used chore charts.  For little ones who can't read we would put a
    picture of a toothbrush on the chart, or a picture of a bed, or a toy
    box/shelf, etc.
    
    Post-It makes removable stickers so your charts can be reused each
    week.
    
    -sandy
    

    
    We have a system for our 21 month old daughter. When it comes time to
    pick up her toys, we make a game out of it. We say "Danielle, let's see
    who can put the toys away faster" and she starts running around picking
    them up and putting them in the toy box, we walk away after picking up
    a couple and before we know it they are all put away, by her.  She is
    so happy after she's done she says,"Look mum, I'm good girl!"  Other
    than that she doesn't have any other task to perform unless she wants
    to, she's still kind of young to be making beds and things! HAHA.
    
    But when I sweep the floor or dust the furniture, she's right behind me
    with her little broom and dust cloth.....
    
    
    Sandy

A couple thoughts/experiences on chores.

A four-year-old is old enough to not only take care of his/her own things
like picking up his/her laundry and room cleaning, but also to do 
family chores.  Our 4.5 year old routinely sets the table (of course, you
have to redefine what "sets" means --- getting the right utensils placed 
in front of each chair is a good start) and feeds the dogs.   Now, if
we could only get our 8-year-old to do these things :-(

Room cleaning is always a major ordeal at our house ...  usually because
it only happens when the rooms become health or safety hazards.  By then,
the room is so bad that it overwhelms the child.  So we make a game of it.
First, dirty laundry.  Then books.  Then blue toys.  Then red toys, etc.
We work together...."I'll pick up the books while you pick up all the 
green toys".  This is much more effective than "Pick up everything."

Frank

    How do you get kids to start doing this?  James doesn't do
    much of anything around the house.  He has to pick up the toys
    in the living room, but that's about it.  He doesn't even dress
    himself (not all the time, anyway).  How do you get them started?

    
    Maybe it's all in the approach?  For us the first move was to locate a
    clothes hamper right across from his room, so he can't forget to put
    his clothes there.  It's also very close to the bathroom, so after he
    gets done with his bath he picks up his dirty clothes and "dumps" them
    in the basket en route to his room.  In the morning, much the same
    thing, he puts his night things in the hamper, since that's the first
    thing he encounters as he is leaving his room.
    
    I also try to "cut him some slack" in the chores.  I showed him how to
    make his bed.  So I accept whatever he does, OK it's not perfect, we'll
    never bounce a coin off of it, but at least he's made an attempt and
    that's all I ask.  I ask him if he need or wants some help with it and
    play it by ear.  (except when we're expecting company then it's made
    right!)  We use the approach of "let me help you do such and thus".  If
    you will put on  or take off the pillow case when I'm changing sheets,
    or would you please take your stuffed animals off the bed so I can
    change your sheets, or for that matter he does a great job taking off
    the sheets and blankets anyway!  He has been since he was about 3-1/2.
    I also ask him to "help me" pick up his room, as a team I think I get
    more cooperation.   
    
    OK I've resorted a few times to "your room is a mess, please go pick it
    up" but not really that many times.  I fold the laundry in the
    livingroom, and he is really good about getting it into the drawers.  I
    set it up in piles of sox, t-shirts, underwear, and tell him"OK top
    drawer and either left-right or center"  thankfully he does know right
    from left.  And he knows where his PJ's, shirts and pants go without
    being told.  He's usually pretty good about getting himself dressed. 
    But I still try to pick out an outfit, so he doesn't get two really
    loud prints as a shirt and shorts.  But he can handle getting his sox
    and underwear both in the morning and for bedtime.  I sort of do
    everything I can to project a positive attitude about chores, and tell
    him that since he's such a "big-boy" that I just "know" he can do it.
    
    Sorry to ramble, but this really is an important thing to me.
    Lyn

    Since my kids were old enough to dress themselves (3+) I stopped doing
    it.  Like Lyn said - it's in the approach.  We always insisted if they
    were physically capable of doing it, then they did it.  Sometimes I
    have to remind them they are "big enough to do it".  I still help my 5
    year old get his over-the-head shirts off, but everything else he does
    himself.  I stopped choosing their clothes, too.  I let them know what
    the weather/plans are for the day.  If they chose a hot sweatshirt on a
    warm day, I suggest we put a t-shirt on underneath so they can remove
    the sweatshirt if they want to.  If they put on holey pants when we are
    off to church (no pun intended), I suggest they put on something more 
    appropriate.  We have no problems with stripes and solids because I try
    to purchase their clothes in a coordinated way.  All pants will go with
    all shirts (all pants solid, all shirts neutral color and plenty of T's
    for the summer).
    
    As far as room cleaning - they are not perfect - but my room isn't
    either.  I don't ask for more than I can give.  I do tell them that the
    remainder of the house is to be free of toys etc, but their rooms are
    basically their business.  We do a "down-and-dirty" clean about once a
    quarter just to get stuff put in the right place or even moved to a
    place for the toys that don't get played with that much.  Eventually,
    I'd like to have all the toys in the basement play area.  
    
    I use a similar approach mentioned - let's pick up the legos first. 
    Let's put the clothes away next.  I have a new rule - since folded
    clothes end up in the laundry basket (I know, I used to do this) on
    occaision I now put all folded clothes in their room and they have to
    put them in the drawers.
    
    If we are expecting guests who will likely play in the bedrooms, we
    have a clean up before.  If the kids want help with cleanup from their
    guests, I make sure they ask the others.  
    
    I have on many occaisions sent the boys upstairs to clean and hear them
    playing together.  Usually they are playing so great together I don't
    bother them.  I will allow them time and then go up and rally them to
    clean up. 
    
    I want my kids to know that I am their mother nad that I am here for
    them.  I do at times remind them that I am not their hired help or
    their slave!  I will work with them not for them.  So far we have a
    good relationship in that respect.  
    
    -sandy (rambling on again...)
    

    My son, who is 4 days shy of 23 months has been doing "chores" since he
    was about 18 months old.  He picks up all his toys at the end of the
    day and puts them in the toy box, he puts his clothes in his hamper and
    his diaper in the trash when I'm done changing him (all of these with a
    little bit of prompting), he also puts his cup and plate in the sink
    when he's done eating, no prompting needed with these two.  As a matter
    of fact, he's so good about it that the other day, we were finishing
    the last of a pint of ice cream and instead of immediately getting up
    and putting the carton in the trash, I put it on the coffee table. 
    Shane got off the couch, picked up the carton and brought it into the
    kitchen and put it in the sink.  It made me smile.
    
    Also, another "chore" of his is to "feed the cat".  When the cat's bowl
    is empty, he brings it to me and says, "Mom, owwww eat" (owwww = meow =
    cat).  I take the bowl, fill it with food and give it back to him.  He
    then puts it back in it's place.  Now if I could only get him to clean
    the litter box! :-)
    
    Lori B.

Elise has been "doing chores" since she could walk.  Chores consist of "helping"
put the toys back in the toy chest before bathtime, giving the dogs a dog
biscuit after breakfast, putting her laundry in the laundry hamper every night,
and helping empty the dishwasher (if she can get tupperware *out* of the
cupboard, she can put it back, I say).

We started this as soon as we realized she wanted to "help" and
we're hoping it will become habit to pick up after herself.  We don't expect
her to do any chores alone yet, but that will come as she gets bigger.

I just wish she could figure out how to put books back on the bookshelf.  She's
great at pulling them onto the floor, looking for exactly the right book to
read, but they just don't seem to fit in the same space when she tries to put
them back.

    Both of my boys (ages 5 and 1/2 and 2) both help around the house.  The
    older one now looks after the younger one.  When we come in from
    outside and its time to get ready to get cleaned up.  The oldest takes
    the youngers shoes off and places them in a basket that we have.  He
    does the same for him self.  He also helps Evan with jacket.  His daily
    job is feeding the dog.  She suddenly becomes his best friend.
    
    Evan also loves to try and help unload the dishwasher.  His job is to
    remove the tupperware plates and stack them up.  He also helps with
    some silverware.
    
    Since we put our house on the market to sell in March, both have been
    very helpful in keeping their rooms clean.  They both know that they
    must pick up all of their toys and replace them in the toy box. 
    Jeffrey (the oldest) has even learned to make his bed.
    
    I think that it is important for them to learn these chores while they
    are young.  It will help when they are older.  
    
    They both love to help Mom "cook" dinner.  The have a stool in the
    kitchen.  It helps us all relax so we can wind down from a busy day to
    have a great dinner and a quiet evening.
    
    Lillian

    Brad has also been doing chores since he could walk.  He insists on
    clean out the lent tray in the dryer.  When putting close in the dryer
    I take them out of the washer hand it to him and he puts them in the
    dryer.  When I dust the end tables or anything he can reach I spay it
    down and he wipes it with a rag.  He hands me the dishes out of the
    dishwasher and I put them in the cabinet or if it a bottom cabinet he
    puts them up.  After bath time we have a short playtime in his room,
    and the I sing a song that goes, "Now it's time to pick up out toys,
    pick up our toys, pick up our toys so we can hear a story", and we
    don't have storytime until its done.  I make it a team work effort and
    Brad thinks it is a game and loves it.
    
    Sasha

    Excuse all the typos in .12 I meant to read it before I entered it.
    
    Sasha

Perhaps this should be in its own note but .0 asked about assigning chores and
tying them to an allowance.  IMO, the purpose of an allowance is to teach 
children to handle money.  A four year old cannot handle money, it really has no
value to him/her.  Besides, parents don't get paid for maintaining the home, why
should children?   If you tie an allowance to chores, then what do you do when 
your child says " I don't want to clean my room, so take my allowance away!"
You're really trying to teach him/her to take care of themselves, to be 
responsible, and to be proud of their contribution to the family and the home.

An allowance should be introduced when the child can understand the concept of 
money; that it can be saved up for a toy or a gift, that it can be spent (and
then it's all gone!), and that it is not a toy, like marbles or pretty stones.

My eight year old receives an allowance, which she saves up in her piggy bank
and then deposits (sometimes) into her account at the DCU.  She has purchased
small gifts with it for her friends and her grampa and herself.  She can
handle her lunch and snack money for school without any problem.

My six year old, on the other hand, loads up her purse with change, takes it
to school and hands it out.  This gives her a lot of pleasure, but I think she'd
enjoy handing out M&Ms just as much.  She also tends to lose it, or use it 
for food when playing house.  It'll be awhile before she gets an allowance.

FWIW

Barbara

    Here's a "Daily job list" that you can modify to meet yours and your
    child's needs.
    
    
    
                              DAILY JOB LIST
  
  
       				       SUN  MON	 TUE  WED  THU	FRI  SAT
  
  CLEAN MY ROOM
     o Make Bed			      |	   |	|    |	  |    |    |	 |
     o Put away clothes		      |	   |	|    |	  |    |    |	 |
     o Pick up and put away toys      |	   |	|    |	  |    |    |	 |
       				      |	   |	|    |	  |    |    |	 |
  DAILY				      |	   |	|    |	  |    |    |	 |
     o Brush teeth (am/pm)	      |	   |	|    |	  |    |    |	 |
     o Take bath, hang up towels      |	   |	|    |	  |    |    |	 |
     o Put dirty clothes in laundry   |	   |	|    |	  |    |    |	 |
     o Lay out next day's clothes     |	   |	|    |	  |    |    |	 |
       				      |	   |	|    |	  |    |    |	 |
  SCHOOL			      |	   |	|    |	  |    |    |	 |
     o Complete Homework	      |	   |	|    |	  |    |    |	 |
     o Did I work hard & take price   |	   |	|    |	  |    |    |	 |
       in my lessons?		      |	   |	|    |	  |    |    |	 |
     o REMEMBER: Lunch money, notes,  |	   |	|    |	  |    |    |	 |
       library books due	      |	   |	|    |	  |    |    |	 |
     o _____________________________  |	   |	|    |	  |    |    |	 |
       				      |	   |	|    |	  |    |    |	 |
  FAMILY			      |	   |	|    |	  |    |    |	 |
     o Pick up all personal belongings|	   |	|    |	  |    |    |	 |
       around the house		      |	   |	|    |	  |    |    |	 |
     o Clean up after meals & snacks  |	   |	|    |	  |    |    |	 |
     o Did I treat my family with love|	   |	|    |	  |    |    |	 |
       and respect?		      |	   |	|    |	  |    |    |	 |
     o Special chores, (set the table,|	   |	|    |	  |    |    |	 |
       take out the trash, ...)	      |	   |	|    |	  |    |    |	 |
     o _____________________________  |	   |	|    |	  |    |    |	 |
       				      	   	     	  ALLOWANCE
       				      	   	     	  EARNED   $______
  
  A SPECIAL PRIVILEGE I would
  like to earn this week
  
  __________________________________
  
    

    What's your opinion/thoughts/feelings?
    
    My son is 7 1/2 years old and in my opinion not very responsible.
    He has been pestering for quite some time to be allowed to mow
    the lawn.  Luckily, our push mower isn't running.  We have a
    ride-on tractor mower.
    
    This weekend, the kids went to their father's house and my son
    said he mowed the lawn.  Now, I know there is nothing I can do
    about what his father let's him do.  But in my opinion, he is
    not old enough to mow the lawn.
    
    How old do you think a child should be before you let him mow
    the lawn?

    My neighbor's son is 8 years old.  He started mowing this summer.
    They also have a ride-on tractor mower.  His father does keep a
    eye on him the whole time though.
    
    Wendy

    In my neighborhood, a man in his 30's lost a toe when mowing his lawn,
    and another man in his 60's lost a finger.  After hearing about these
    men, I think I'll make my son wait until he's about 10.  Or 29!
    
    Jane

    Can't offer any first hand experience yet, but thanks for posing a
    question that has sort of been sitting in the back of my mind lately. 
    We have a neighbor with an 11 year old boy, he a little "chunky" in
    size and personally I think pushing the mower might be good exercise,
    but that's another story.  Anyway I came home a little early and saw
    him cutting the grass on the riding mower, and I'm thinking isn't this
    a great scene helping out mom and dad.  (mother went in today for a 
    planned c-sec on number 4, the other two girls are both under 2.5) The
    next few minutes made me cringe, all I heard was crunch, sputter and so
    on as he seemed to be constantly running over *lots* of rocks, twigs,
    and branches.  Did he think he was driving a mulcher?  I'd say he needs
    either a couple more years or a little more guidance in the basics, or
    better yet, scrub the "rider" for a push mower.  After all it's only a
    half acre lot!
    
    I will be interested in others' opinions.  We let AJ "help", he sort of
    stands between us and the push mower and thinks he's doing all the
    work.  thank heaven for the self propelled mowers!
    
    Lyn

Yeah, call me over-cautious (while my mother and sister call me UNDER-cautious!)
... but I do think 7-1/2 years old is too young for ANY power equipment
(and I think a ride-on tractor is MORE dangerous than a push mower).

One of Juli's worst accidents was due to a lawn mower!  Jim (or I - can't recall)
had just finished mowing the lawn (with a push mower) and it was parked.
Jim was putting away the trash barrels and Juli (just walking -- ~10 months
old) wobbled after her Dad.  Jim was tieing the bag closed and Juli turned
around (so quick!) and TOUCHED THE MUFFLER!  It was like a steak hitting
a hot BBQ grille!  It was HORRIBLE!!  Juli was stunned and we were SCARED.
We treated it and took her to the hospital and she had several followup
Pedi appointments.  The palm of that tiny little hand had multiple blisters
(within hours) and one blister went from her thumb to the tip of her first
finger.  Pedi said she'd have scarring  (although we don't see any now!).

Our neighbor lets his grandkids hold the handle of the mower while he
pushes it and it scares me.  I can't watch them!  His wife got after him
and I haven't seen it happen since.

I, too, have heard stories of ADULTS losing toes and fingers.  And I've heard
stories of adults being thrown from a tractor (if they misjudge and hit
an inmobile object).  Jim also mentions that rocks thrown by the mower blades
can be deadly ... even just a pebble.

I just don't think a 7-1/2 year old understands the risks involved ... or
would have the maturity to handle a bad situation (do you jump ... and
where to).

Call me neurotic ... but I'd say "NO WAY".

Dottie

I must have been around 7 when my Dad let me mow the lawn.  Our yard at the time
wasn't that big, the part he let me mow was perfectly rectangular and flat. He
didn't just let me have at it.  To this day I have quite a memory of being shown
what a running lawn mower can do.  My Dad took a rolled up newspaper and stuck 
it in the ejection chute. (no claim that this in itself was a wise thing to
do!)  But I sure saw for myself what can happen!

It really has to depend on the child.  I'm overly responsible, my sister on 
the otherhand couldn't be trusted with a can opener until her teen year! ;-)

Then again some adults shouldn't be using power tools either.  My Dad had to 
take care of two guys once (He's a surgeon) who actually thought it would be
a good idea to try to trim the hedges with the lawn mower.  So they each got on
a side of the mower, picked it up by the body, and were both almost left with
only 2 thumbs!  I'm sure these bozo's have drivers licenses too!!

W-

I let my son mow the lawn with the riding lawnmower for the first time this
summer.  He will be nine in August.  I let him ride it (with the cutting
blade disengaged), alone, last summer, which was just short of his eighth
birthday.  Last summer, I walked alongside the mower for the first few laps
around the lawn.

The factors I considered:

     -    What he really wanted to do.  Last summer what he really wanted to
          do was ride, not mow.  So I could leave the cutting blade
          disengaged. This summer, he really wanted to mow (wanted to earn
          some money).

     -    Whether he follows specific instructions, particularly those
          related to safety.  Whether he operates the mower recklessly.  (Is
          that what you meant by "responsible?").  For example, a portion of
          our lawn is quite banked, and the tractor could tip over.  I told
          him to stay away from there, and he did.  I set it for the slowest
          speed.  He didn't try to make it go faster, even though he knew
          how; when he wanted to go faster, he asked me.

     -    How he reacts to situations I didn't explicitly cover.  Nothing
          particular happened while he was riding or mowing, but my
          experience with him in other situations is that he does not panic,
          and makes good decisions.

I will not argue with anyone who says no.  Power lawnmowers are much safer
than they were ten years ago, but are still dangerous.  I will say, though,
that many if not most of the injuries to adults are a result of the adult
doing something dumb.  A properly instructed child who follows instructions
is probably less likely to get injured than a careless adult.

Clay

My wife and I just battled over this issue this past weekend.  I was getting
ready to cut the grass and she said, "I told Robbie that you would pay him
$5 to mow the back yard."  (Robbie is 8).  I said, "He's not old enough"
She said, "He's done it before"  I freaked.  I had no idea she had let him
use the mower.  I proceeded to cut the lawn, front and back.  The issue 
is still unresolved.

Here are my thoughts.  Our back yard is level, but it had been four rainy
weeks since it had been cut.  That is, the grass was a good 8-10 inches high.
(Our back yard is completely fenced, so no one sees it but us)  If the 
grass were only a couple of inches high, I might have considered it.  
We have an electric mower with a "deadman switch".

The front yard had only gone about a week since the last cut, but
it is a hill and I worry about my own toes, and certainly do not
think he is old enough to do that.  Or actually big enough.

But based on what I have read here, I think a good safety lesson and 
close supervision on cutting the back yard might be OK.  I have no idea
what if any instructions my wife gave Rob before she let him cut the grass.
She did say that she supervised the whole time.  

Not sure if this helps...........but I'm curious how others have
handled this.......I sure look forward to the day when he can cut
the grass without supervision so that I can do other things :-)

Frank

I agree with some of the others.  Dirk is very responsible and does exactly
as he's told.  Markus isn't and doesn't.  Dirk has been mowing the lawn since
he was 10.  Markus shows no responsibility in any task we give him so he
isn't allowed to mow the lawn.

Dirk had to work up to lawn mowing by helping (and getting paid for) the more
boring gardening tasks.  He then went on to the electric scissors for 
trimming the edge.  Markus doesn't have enough patience and doesn't listen 
well enough to even do these simple things so it will be a while before he
will get to mow the lawn.

Cheryl

    I live in a Town house and don't have a yard to speak of.  My son (3.5)
    does have chores.  He sets the tabel for dinner, put the clean
    silverwear away, helps with the vacuming, and puts mommy's clothes
    away, I guess his clothes are not as interesting.  He loves to help and
    my mother and I let him do just about what he wants.  The other day he
    wanted to clean the toilet (I think he missed).  He asked for a sponge
    and the brush and went to work.  He was so proud of himself when he was
    done.
    
    

    Has anyone heard how that little boy (not sure from what state)
    made out....I heard bits and pieces of it on the news but never
    heard the end or really even what happened...
    
    Apparently he was riding on a lawnmower with an adult and it 
    tipped over and he got hit in the head with the blade. 
    
    After hearing that I'm not so sure that mowing the lawm is
    safe for anyone...........
    

    
    If you are referring to the child in Danvers, MA, my understanding
    is that he died. But I didn't hear the story from the news, but from
    someone living in Danvers. 
    
    Cyn

    >  After hearing that I'm not so sure that mowing the lawm is safe
    > for anyone...........
    
    This is correct.
    
    --bonnie     

    IMO...
    
    No one but an adult or an adult-sized teenager (and a very responsible
    one at that) should be allowed to mow the lawn.  I have been mowing the
    lawn since I was 13; thankfully with no mishaps.  I do, however, know
    of two people who have had very bad mishaps -- a childhood friend lost
    her big toe on her right foot to a lawnmower accident.  Her father was
    cutting the grass and she was playing in the yard.  Also one of my
    bosses a few years back severely damaged the tendons, etc. in the top
    of his foot while mowing the lawn.  The grass was wet, he slipped, etc. 
    He had leather work boots on or probably would have had more damage. 
    He was on crutches for six weeks that I can recall.
    
    Please NEVER let your children use power tools unsupervised.  I don't
    even allow my children in the same part of the yard when I am mowing
    the lawn.  I have had numerous occasions that rocks, sticks, etc. have
    been ejected from under the lawn mower and scared me silly!
    
    I love to have my oldest, 4 years old, work in the yard with me but not
    while mowing the lawn.  He helps rake leaves, dig in the garden, even
    prune trees and bushes (not very successfully).  No power tools.
    
    As they used to say on "Hill Street Blues,"
    
    Let's be careful out there...
    
    Kathy
                                 

    Hi,
    
    Haven't had to deal with the bedwetting - yet :) but on the $ maybe you
    could set up a list:
    
    special chores he gets $ for 
    chores he is responsible for doing every day/week/whatever
    
    Keep tabs of what he does/doesn't do. If he does a special chore, don't
    pay him but put a star or something on the chart. Every time he doesn't
    do a regular chore or whines about it take a star away. That way you
    can track it for a week and he has incentive for doing nonpaying
    chores.
    
    Takes a lot of the day to day hassle out for you but still gives him
    something to work for.
    
    Pat

The following note related to two topics; bedwetting and chores/money.

The note has been reposted in a bedwetting note (104).  The chores money 
portion of the note has been moved here.

Clay Satow
co-moderator 

           <<< MOIRA::MOIRA$NOTES:[NOTES$LIBRARY]PARENTING.NOTE;1 >>>
                                 -< Parenting >-
================================================================================
Note 549.0               BED WETTING/GREEDY LITTLE KID?                  1 reply
BRLLNT::PETERS                                       28 lines  29-JUN-1993 13:09
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

. . . .
    
    Also, I made the mistake of offering him a dollar sometimes to help me
    out with things, and I fear he is the most greedy kid in the world.
    Now if his mother tells him to pick up, or something, he says that he
    will for a dollar, and whines if you say he will do it because he is
    responsible for his messes.
    
    How do I offset this little ones greed?  Or should I call it ambition?
    
    Thanks
    

We also got tired of bargaining for everyday stuff.  It even got to 
(half-kidding) asking for a nickel for passing the salt and pepper.

We give them an allowance.  It is not linked to tasks performed.  They have a 
set of chores that they are supposed to do.  It is not linked to chores, but 
it may be linked to getting to do something that they want, like watching TV 
or going to a friends.

For doing stuff "above and beyond" the standard chores, they may get paid, 
but only if they've done their standard chores first.

It feels awkward giving them money for "nothing", but the message we are 
trying to get across is that the money is for you to learn to manage 
money and for taking care of things you want, but that we aren't willing to 
pay for (i.e. snacks at the store, book clubs at school, renting videos).  
The standard chores you do because it's your responsibility to this family.  
Just like it's daddy's job to earn money to support us.

Clay

    	I heard on the radio yesterday (while stuck on 495 for hours) that
    little blurb about giving allowance and not making it related to jobs
    around the house, we've all heard that message before, in fact it's in
    the previous note.

    	I'm starting to question this. Why should I just give my kids money
    for nothing? I realize that the purpose is supposed to teach money
    management, but if we're trying to teach real life values shouldn't the
    kids earn the money (doing tasks above and beyond)? When in our lives
    are we just given money to manage (short of an inheritance ;-))?

    	I'm not sure how I'm going to do it, but I think we'll try setting
    up an earning system for money. This does not mean that they will get a
    nickel for passing the salt ;-) but it does mean that once they have
    completed their chores (and believe me, with both parents working, two
    cats and a dog, there are a lot of chores) they have the *option* of
    earning money towards something that they'd like.

    	One of my biggest goals is to step back and make my kids as self
    reliant as possible (visions of me being in college and not knowing
    how to do laundry or cook because our maid always did it still haunt
    me).

    				Wendy

    My aunt has a cool system which I might try when my child is a bit
    older (now 21 months).  She has a chart with her 3 kids and what chores
    each child must do every day (some chores get rotated or are seasonal). 
    Some tasks are Key task (meaning must be done everyday) and if it's 
    not this child looses a priviledge and a point.  At the end of the week
    the points are counted and the child is compensated for the work done.
    I don't know what amount of points are given for each tasks.
    
    At the bottom of the chart she has some extra tasks if anyones
    interested in making additional money.
    
    Her kids are 16, 14 & 7 and they are wild boys, but they pretty much always
    follow the schedule because they like to buy stuff and they know the
    points system it the way to get money.
    
    
    Both my aunt and uncle work long hours and they found that this system
    got the things that needed to be done completed during the week which
    left more time for family activities/sports on the weekend.
    She was telling me that when gameboy came out with the're latest
    cassette her oldest was doing all the extra chores.
    
    Also, the chores are suited to the age.
    
    
    That's all the detail I have.

    I'm really confused by all the stuff I read about the ages that
    kids "should" do certain things -- i.e., make their beds, pick
    up their toys, wash themselves, put dishes in the dishwasher, etc.  
    James is 5.5 and Hollis is 27 months.  He's pretty good about picking
    up the living room, but if I ask her to help him, she looks at me like
    I've got two heads and four sets of teeth.  So I've kind of given up
    on her for the time being.  I honestly don't think she understand
    what I'm saying.
    
    But is it reasonable to expect my son to:
    
    	-take  his dirty dishes into the kitchen
    	-put his dirty laundry in the hamper
    	-put his clean laundry away
    	-make his bed (i.e., pull the bedspread up and smooth out the
    sheets
    	-wash himself in the bathtub (He always wants me to do it!)
    	-pick up the toys
    	-perform simple housework, like run the Dustbuster and put the
    	  newspapers in a bag for the recycle bin.
    
    If this is reasonable, how do I get my kid started and how do I make it
    consistent?  When can I expect my daughter to start following suit?
    
    also -- this isn't really related, I just want to get some ideas --
    when did you start teaching your kids to answer the telephone?  We have
    an answering machine and I usually let it pick up the phone calls, but
    James is getting interested and I wondered if this was an appropriate
    thing for him to do.
    
    Ideas welcomed....  

    My son, Shane, turned 3 at the end of July.  Some of the things I've
    taught him to do (and I may say, he does them quite well) are:
    
    Picking up his toys and putting them in his toy box.
    Getting himself dressed in the morning (I pick out his clothes).
    Scraping his dinner plate into the trash and putting his dishes into
    the sink.
    Washing himself in the bath (I do his hair and ears and check out
    everything else).
    Putting his clothes in the laundry room.
    Helping me with the dustbusting.
    Answering the phone, but only when I ask him to.
    
    I don't think he's old enough yet to teach him how to make the bed or
    wash dishes, but he tries like h*ll to help me.  I think it's all
    because I'm a single parent and I've taught him early because I can use
    the help and he seems to enjoy it.
    
    Lori B.

I think all the chores listed in .34 are reasonable for
a 5 years.  Elise will be three shortly, and she does
all these things, except the newspapers and making the
bed (we simply don't make beds.  It is below the
dotted line in our house).


We started her out doing things that were directly
related to her, like putting her dirty clothes
in the laundry hamper (she was maybe 18 months -
walking well).

Recently, we've started adding chores that benefit
all or one of us, directly, like setting the dinner 
table,  being responsible for Sarah for 2-3 minutes
(while I visit the bathroom, for example), feeding
the dogs or cat.

Next we'll start adding some chores for which the
benefit is a bit obscure - carrying groceries,
folding laundry.

Our goal is probably clear - that we live in a
household and all of us contribute to maintaining
it.  Only Sarah is exempt from chores, because
she's still a baby (not yet a year).

I think the key is to accept their standard of
"done".  If her clean laundry gets into her
dresser, that's good enough.  It usually is
unfolded by then, and in the wrong drawers, but
hey, *she did it*.


Pat

My kids are 29 months, and they have been doing little things for a while now.
I add tasks as they show interest so that it's something they've decided 
they want to do, and they feel like they're really the ones in charge.  Since
we still have the gate up, I have them throw all laundry over the gate, and
that is considered done, so when they change at night or in the morning,
or if the dishtowels are dirty, I just hand it to them or call out 'laundry'
and one or both of them head for the gate with it.  And since they've been
eating at the table, I let them help set it and clear it, but I don't insist
they do it every night. I always ask, and if they say 'no', I let that go as
I do want them to learn they have choices, and most nights they do what I
ask. The nights they don't want to help tend to be when they're involved 
with something else, so I don't mind.

And they both insist on being in the kitchen when I cook and clean, so I
have them bring dishes out to the kitchen, and they put all the stuff
back in the refrigerator. They also clear off the plates into the garbage
disposal, and either hand them to me to go in the dishwasher or put them in
themselves.  I have noticed that Brad prefers to load dirty dishes where 
Jessica likes to unload and put them away.  And Brad thinks mops and vacuums
are wonderful, so he helps a lot with those chores.  I've also just started
letting Jessica help with hand-washing some of the dishes.

I think that any chores they can help with is good as they are learning to 
contribute to the family, and they feel good about themselves as they
accomplish things. They're also learning that these things have to get done.

And then there are the side benefits like when my Mom and Dad are babysitting
or we have a new sitter who can't find something -- the kids always know
where things are.  But there are also disadvantages -- Jessica really nags
if I don't do something like shut off the light or put away the tablecloth.
Guess she's learning that part from Mom.

	At 16 months, Emily's already learning a few "chores".  She figured
	out how to get the Cheerio Box on her own, so Daddy began to have
	her get it every morning, bring it to him, wait while he puts
	some on her high-chair tray, then return the box to the cabinet.
	She loves it, and always turns to applaud herself after closing
	the cabinet back up.

	From that, she's learned what it means to put something away, so
	if she comes out with something she shouldn't have, we can tell
	her to put it away, and she will.

	She likes to sweep with the broom, and has begun to help with unloading
	the dishwasher by handing a plate to Mom or Dad.

	As she shows interest, we encourage her and praise the job she does,
	even if it means we have to correct it a bit when she's not looking.

	It's amazing how quickly a small task becomes habit.  Last week, Daddy
	asked her to close the door after we got in the house.  Now, every
	night, she stands by the door waiting until everyone's in, then shuts
	the door.

	Karen

    	I am a big advocate of chores for *everyone* (including the parents
    ;-().

    	With Spencer, (24 mos) he has to help us put away his toys and he
    puts his dirty dishes in the sink (Unfortunately he puts the toys he is
    cored with in the sink as well).

    	He also has learned to turn off the PC when he is finished and puts
    the keyboard cover on top of the printer.

    	Other than that he does not do too much right now, as his verbal
    skills are not that great, I've found it difficult to get him to do
    things on verbal command, I usually have to show him. As his skills
    get better (day by day!) I anticipate that he will be given more and
    more "family responsibilities".

    				Wendy

Re .39

That reminds me of my daughter.  I'm not sure how it happened, but somehow
we have ended up with a neat freak (switch at the hospital?).  If Jessica
sees something she perceives to be trash, she just picks it up and throws
it out. If the tablecloth is on the table, she washes and dries it. She's
even been known to grab a dishtowel and dust the furniture.  And her
big thing lately is that when we get home, all the coats and jackets have
to get hung up in the closet. This has been especially helpful in getting
her Daddy to put away his stuff, something he normally doesn't even 
consider doing.  But who can resist a 2-year-old's nagging?

I think all this has helped us to be more disciplined about putting things
away, and she and Brad are learning to do these chores and enjoy the 
gratification of doing things on their own.

Not being a full-time parent, I'm at little inexperienced about age
appropriate responsibilities.  My husband has found out that his children 
from a previous marriage, are, at ages 8 and 11, (just turning 11 this week), 
totally responsible for all of their own laundry, breakfasts, and lunches.  
Does this sound reasonable or a little much for those ages ?

Leslie

    I know that at 11 years old, I was doing laundry for the entire family
    (4 kids - 2 adults).  I don't think I made my own breakfast or lunch
    though.
    
    Lori B.

    If "breakfast" means cereal and OJ, and "lunch" means "pack yourself
    a sandwich" it seem perfectly possible for an 8-year-old, and downright
    trivial for an 11-year-old.
    
    Or do they have to go buy seeds at the seed store and plow and plant
    and mill and bake?
    
    Laundry is easy too--despite what my wife claims, you can do everything
    in one load with cold water: you just have to adjust (i.e. throw out 
    stuff that shrinks, and don't sweat the colors). 
    
    		-John Bishop

>    Laundry is easy too--despite what my wife claims, you can do everything
>    in one load with cold water: you just have to adjust (i.e. throw out 
>    stuff that shrinks, and don't sweat the colors). 

This attitude is due to a defect of the Y chromosome.  Just ask your wife.

    Actally, my kids get their own breakfast (ages 6 and 8) and have been
    for 2 or more years.  This means anything cold (cereal, cold toaster
    pastries, etc) and my 8 year old just started using the micro to do his
    instant oatmeal this year.  He will do it for his brother, too.  I am
    not a morning person and probably never will be.  They can do their
    lunches too (PB&J sandwiches, etc), but we usually monitor that one. 
    My kids don't get left alone to take care of themselves, mind you. 
    They do it because they are capable and we nurture independence.
    
    On the other hand, they are boys - and when it comes to laundry, I
    don't even let my husband touch MY clothes.  I don't care how he ruins
    his, just don't touch mine.  I think it will be awhile before I get the
    boys into that battle.
    
    My girlfriend has three kids (10, 12, and 13) and all do their own
    laundry and have for the past year.
    
    -sandy
    

    I have a situation with my 6 year old daughter that is frustrating me
    to no end.   There are few things that we actually expect her to do at
    her age, but the things we do expect is to:
    
      1.  Listen and do as we ask with no arguments.  
       (This is a laugh because she always argues with us about everything
        unless its something that she wanted to do in the first place)
    
      2.  Brush her teeth when she gets up in the morning and when she goes
            to bed at night.   (She always argues about this.  She will tell
            us she hates her teeth and wants them to fall out)
    
      3.  Make up her bed and pick up her room.   (I'm not asking for
            expertise here, just a little co-operation with picking up
            after herself and as far as making up her bed, I don't really
            expect it to be totally made up, but straigtened up somewhat.)
    
    Her argument for this is that "I'm not Cinderella".    
    
    Any advise?   Am I expecting too much for her age?

    So what are the carrots and sticks available?
    
    C. S. Forester wrote a story once ("The Man on the Yellow Raft")
    wherein a British captain pointed out the great benefit of the
    rum ration (which each sailor used to get once a day) was that
    it was a highly-desired daily benefit which could be withdrawn
    when a punishment was needed.
    
    "No TV" or "no going out to friends" or "no telephone" might be
    good sticks--but if you can find a daily carrot and take it 
    away, maybe that would have more impact.
    
    		-John Bishop

    The chores don't seem excessive to me, but I'm uncomfortable with
    
    .47>  1.  Listen and do as we ask with no arguments.  
    
    It just reminds me of Archie Bunker saying "STIFLE, Edith!"  How about
    modifying that to "with *few* arguments" or "with limited discussion"?
    
    Leslie

    -.1
    
    Discussion:  thats where the problem comes in.  I can't seem to have a
    discussion with her.   I try to talk to her reasonably about why I'm
    asking her to do something, but the entire time I'm trying to explain
    to her, she is yelling and screaming at me about why she doesn't think
    she should do it.  She thinks I'm being mean, and sometimes she has
    actually told me she didn't like me. So since I really don't want to/or
    like to  get into a yelling/screaming match (which it always seems to
    turn into) I don't know how to handle the situation.  It escalates from
    there.  She is telling me that I don't listen to her at the same time
    I'm trying to explain to her why she needs to do what I'm asking.
    
    Some of things that I do not consider up for discussion since I believe
    these things are part of a normal daily routine are: 
    
    GOINT TO THE BATHROOM BEFORE GOING TO BED AND GETTING UP IN THE
    MORNING: she even argues about that, its several hours from the time we
    get home and have supper and she hasn't been to the bathroom the entire
    time we've been home.  She argues and argues about it saying she
    doesn't have to go.  I push the issue and make her go to the bathroom. 
    She is screaming and crying the entire time, but she really does have
    to go badly when she finally sits down.
    
    EATING SUPPER:  Always an argument about eating supper.  
    
    BRUSHING HER TEETH (i've already mentioned)
    
    GOING TO BED at bedtime.  She is forever asking to stay up past bedtime
    to watch TV. We've experimented with this:  If we let her stay up, even
    as much as a 1/2 hour, she is unbearable in the morning when trying to
    get her up, eat breakfast and ready to go to school.   She is already
    unco-operative enough in  the morning to begin with, and to allow her
    to have her way is not something that we can allow.  The problem is,
    I'm not sure how to stop the cycle now.
      
    Sometimes when I ask her to clean up her room and she throws the temper
    tantrum, I'll tell her that she can't do something that she wants to do
    until her room is clean.   She'll tell me that she didn't want to do
    that anyway and that she isn't going to clean up her room. "I'm not
    Cinderella" is her come-back. Sometimes, I'll tell her OK, you don't
    have to do it now, but before the end of the day you have to pick up
    your room.  She'll agree to do it later, but when later comes, she
    pulls the same stuff.  By the way, I only push picking up her room on
    the weekends, because that is the only time she is able to spend enough
    time in her room to really tear it up.  She will also tell me that she
    hates her room, its an old room and she wants to move. (As if her room
    won't get any messier in a new house)  As far as her "I'm not
    Cinderella" comeback, I try to explain to her that all little girls and
    boys are responsible (at some point in their life) for keeping their
    rooms clean and she is not being asked to do something out of the
    ordinary, nor is she being treated like Cinderella.  I even suggested
    she ask some of her friends in school and see if they had to clean up
    her room.  I do not get any response from this suggestion at all.
    
    I'm really at my wits end.   I work all day, I pick her up from her
    sitters, get her home, and it seems that we are at cross-purposes from
    the moment we walk in the door.   She is arguing and talking back the
    entire evening.   I am not able to spend as much time as I would like
    with her since  I work full time and it is not an option for me to quit
    work. I really want the time that we do have together to be happy times
    but at this point I do not know how to achieve this goal. There are
    times when she is so out of control in the evening, that I  end up
    telling her she has to go to bed, before its even her normal bedtime
    because her behavior is so bad.  So, then I feel real guilty since I
    feel like I should have handled the situation better, but am at a loss
    as to how I could handle it better.
    
    Any suggestions would be helpful. I guess I need to know if I'm being 
    unreasonable in my expectations as well.  Maybe all the conflicts are
    really my fault?

How's she doing in school?  Presumably she's asked to follow rules there too.

Someone else, help me out here:

There's a book called ... Talking So Your Child Will Listen
or some such title.  I haven't read it, but it's been highly
recommended in other notes here.

I've read "Siblings Without Rivalry", by the same authors, and
found it to be excellent.

Can someone supply the correct title and authors?

    School:  So far, I think OK.  We did have a couple of notes from the
    teacher/nurse at the beginning of the year with some concern about her
    following through on instructions, but she had an active ear infection
    at the time which may have caused a hearing problem.   Since then the
    ear infection has cleared up and the hearing screening test appeared to
    be OK.  There is another topic in parenting that I wrote about this. 
    Since the ear infection has cleared up, we haven't heard anything from
    the teachers (so far) about there continuing to be a problem.   There
    is a parent/teachers conference in November where we will probably find
    out if there is a problem, but I intend to call her teacher some time
    next week to ask her and verify if everything appears to be OK and not
    wait until November.
                        

It sounds like a control issue to me.  (Mind you, I'm the mom of a 
15-month-old, so I'm certainly not experienced, but I've always got an
opinion :-)

My reasoning here is that, from your description, you and your daughter
fight over her going to the bathroom before bed.  You want her to go,
she needs to go (badly even), and she still fights you.  Maybe your daughter
feels you're trying to force her to do things, and she wants to feel more in
control?

Taking just this one area:
   What would happen if you just stopped pushing this issue?  If your
   daughter really feels defiant, I suppose she might wet the bed or
   herself.  Could you tell her where fresh sheets are, and give her
   instructions on what to do if she does wet the bed, but leave it up
   to her when she goes to the bathroom?  (And I'm not really sure if
   it's reasonable to expect a 6-year-old to make the bed in the middle
   of the night.)

Eating dinner is another area where you could just refuse to get drawn
into the battle.  She can eat her dinner or not.  If she chooses not to,
she cannot snack on sweets later.  She can, however, snack on healthy food 
that she can prepare herself.  

I guess my general idea is to offer a suggestion to her, tell her the
consequences of non-compliance, and let her make the choice.  There are
certainly areas that would be non-negotiable -- bedtime and brushing
teeth come to mind.

Maybe at sometime that you are both relaxed, you could have a discussion.
Something like:  I don't enjoy it when we have fights about ____________.
Can you help me understand what upsets you when I ask you to _____?

Another thought is that maybe she's very unhappy about something totally
unrelated to the things that you're arguing about (and unrelated to you!),
but you're the one she feels safe taking it all out on.  (Lucky you :-)

Here are some suggestions.  I'm not an "expert", so use your own judgement
in regards to what I offer here.  

First of all, perhaps you are trying toO hard.  Do have you times when you
play games with her, read, just "mess" around ?  I know how taxed one gets
for energy and time, working full-time, maintaining a home, raising children,
and giving attention to the marriage relationship and one's spouse.  Sometimes
you just need to let the housework or the dishes or whatever, go though, and
well, relax with your child.

Perhaps loosen up a little on the bathroom thing, and let her choose to go as 
she feels she needs.  Let her take that responsibililty for herself and if she
makes a mistake or two as a result don't go on the "I told you so" route, but 
have her cleanup after herself.  If she needs to get up to go after she has 
gone to bed, let her, but don't let her use it as time to dilly-dally, come 
back out to where the television or whatever is.  I think kids resent it when 
we try to control them completely and don't give them any credit for at least 
a little mind of their own.

Bedtime is probably something I'd remain firm about, especially on weeknights.
Some of the other things though, I consider what my goal is, and then adjust
what I required of her accordingly.  I used to have battles with one, and 
sometimes both of my step-children, but I've finally decided that all I can
do is provide tasteful, nutritious meals and they can choose whether to eat
it or go hungry.  They do come to the table for supper, but if they finish
before we do, they can ask to be excused from the table, and we will let them.

Also, have you talked to her teacher at school to find out if she is cooperative
or rebellious there ?   Perhaps the teacher or a school counseler would have 
some ideas for you.

Leslie

Notes collision !  __Leslie

Well, I think my Jessica is your 6-year-old-in-training ;>)

We've had lots of battles with Jessica, who's only 2 1/2, about just about
everything these last few weeks.  One thing that I've found that has worked
with Her Royal Stubbornness is to give her lots of choices so that she feels
she's in control.  Things like would you like a banana or grape with breakfast?
Would you like the banana whole or sliced in your cereal?  Would you like
Cheerios or Rice Krispies?  Cereal or a bagel?  Want to sleep in the big
girl's bed or the crib?  The message she gets is that she has to do what
I want, but she gets to pick how she does it.

In your position, I would stick firm on bedtime, and in fact, that's something
that I do, so lately although Jessica doesn't want to go to bed, she has 
to go. We've ended up leaving her in her room crying and closing the door,
but she calms down after about 5 or 10 minutes and goes to sleep.  Of course,
I've probably got the only 2-year-old in the world who gets dark circles
and bags under her eyes if she doesn't get enough sleep, so bedtime is pretty
non-negotiable at my house.

I wouldn't push the supper thing. I believe that a kid won't starve, so they'll
eat if they're hungry. We don't insist the kids eat, but we do insist that
they sit at the table at dinnertime so we're all together, and they have to
behave or they get time-out.  I wouldn't make eating dinner a battle.  As long
as she knows that the food is available and there's something there that she
likes, she'll eat it if she's hungry.  If she doesn't eat, just don't let
her have a snack after.  It's possible she's just not hungry. It's also 
possible that she is hungry but she's using the food as another way to 
have control, but she will eventually figure out that she eats at supper or
she doesn't eat.  And I think if you relieve some of the pressure to have the
battle at dinner, she may surprise you and eat more as it will become something
she chooses to do.

After reading your note, I can see I'm in for fun as Jessica gets older!

Cathy

    The book referred to a few back is "How to talk so kids will listen and
    listen so kids will talk" by Adele Faber and Elaine Mazlish.  I also
    like the suggestions of previous notes -- getting to bed seems
    important, but if she gets hungry or wets the bed she'll be
    uncomfortable herself and will get the picture without a battle.
    
    Of course, I'm not an authority, but it sounds good.
    
    Beryl

Re: a few back -

Our 6 year old gave us the "I'm not Cinderella" line, too.

So we stopped calling the tasks "chores" and instead we call them
"responsibilities".  We've also tried to avoid the carrot and
stick approach of "no TV unless/because", and instead we use 
"no TV (or coloring, or playing, etc.) *until* you finish cleaning your room / 
feeding the cats / etc."

So far this has worked.

/bruce

>    The chores don't seem excessive to me, but I'm uncomfortable with
    
>    .47>  1.  Listen and do as we ask with no arguments.  
    
>    It just reminds me of Archie Bunker saying "STIFLE, Edith!"  How about
>    modifying that to "with *few* arguments" or "with limited discussion"?
 
I agree with Leslie; I'll put a little different spin on it though.  I'd 
suggest treating what she SAYS and what she DOES (or with respect to chores, 
doesn't do) as different issues.  While there seems to be problems in both 
areas in .47, at least it opens the door to some positive feedback -- if she 
gives her "Cinderella" speech, then does what was requested.  As the father 
of a teenager, I've learned to filter out the sarcastic responses if she does 
what's asked (and quite honestly, I wonder where the "I'm not Cinderella" 
came from; my guess is that the source is an older sibling of someone in 
daycare or school).

Another thing that I try to do with regard to chores (kind of falls into the 
"control" thing) is to say "When are you going to . . .", then not saying 
anything unless the activity was not done by the agreed to time.  That gives 
them a bit of control, but doesn't give an indication that the task is 
negotiable.

Note also the discussion in note 204.

Clay

  FWIW, the way I've been trying to differentiate in our house (I have an 
  almost 9 year old who has been difficult lately too) is as follows :

  (1) there are items which he HAS to do AND they HAVE to be done a
      certain way - e.g., teeth brushing, showering/washing hair,
			  good table manners......  - on these,
			  I'm like Leslie I guess in that I don't want
			  an argument about it !

  (2) there are items which he HAS to do but he can choose HOW to 
      do them - e.g., making sure his room is picked up/neat but
		      he can decide where to put things, doing
		      his homework before/after he has some playtime
		      after school, making sure the trash is ready for 
		      Monday morning pickup but what room comes when 
		      is up to him,  which order to get dressed in.....

  (3) then there's the stuff I'd LIKE him to do, but if it doesn't
      get done, it won't hurt anyone except maybe himself if something
      doesn't happen or come out the way he wants it - e.g.,I'd like
      him to work on his Scouting activities, but if he chooses not
      to, he understands it's HIS problem if he doesn't get arrow points,
      pins, belt loops, etc., at the next pack meeting; if he doesn't
      do the chores he's supposed to do during the week (he has one each
      day after school) then he has to do them on the weekend and he
      loses playtime.....

  I've been working really hard lately on trying to remember to think 
  about the distinction between 1 & 2 - does he really HAVE to do this
  and does he really HAVE to do it a certain way ?  If so, I'm trying to
  be more clear about it so we don't end up in the argument about how
  it was done/not done and having to constantly re-do............

    As the parent of a 4-year-old who sometimes would rather get
    wet than go to the bathroom, I'm used to the control issues
    around toilets!
    
    I know that if I were a 6-year-old and my mother were insisting
    I "go", I'd really resent her assumption of control--even if I
    did have a full bladder.  For your sake and hers, you should get
    out of that issue--as others have said, let it be her problem if
    she makes a mistake.
    
    From what you say, it sounds like you might be over-controlling, 
    and that you don't have much "fun" time together.
    
    If you can swing it, why not ask her "out" to dinner, at the
    pizza/sub-shop/burger place of her choice?  Then let her pick
    the meal (even if it's four milkshakes), and just hang out,
    _with_no_discussion_of_home_issues_like_beds_!  Maybe you could
    pick one night a week to be "rent-a-video" night--she choses
    the film but you get to veto.  Life is not all work.
    
    		-John Bishop

    Wow,  what an eye opener....  I really didn't realize that I was really
    trying to be SO controlling of my daughter.   There are times when
    she does co-operate, but there is a lot of times she doesn't either.
    I really don't mean to be controlling if I am.  
    
    More than anything, I feel that we are at cross-purposes when we are
    trying to communicate with each other.  An example of this is that last
    night when we got home for work, we hadn't even been in the house two
    minutes.   Its pouring down raining outside, my daughter tells me that
    she is going outside to play.   I tell her no she can't go out because
    it is raining too hard.  She immediately starts yelling and screaming
    at me that I never let her do anything that she wants to do (which
    isn't the case because I will tend to give in to her rather than have
    arguments about it).  Well her yelling and screaming/crying about never
    getting to do what she wants really got to me and I told her that I'd
    had enough and that she'd better go to her room right now, because I
    wasn't going to take being treated like that. She doesn't even let me
    explain to her why I say no about something, she just immediately goes
    into a temper tantrum. Well, she went to her room and in a few minutes
    she had calmed down enough for me to talk to her calmly about why she
    couldn't go out in the rain.   So is everyone telling me I should have
    said "OK go play in the rain?"    When do you draw the line for taking
    the anger and the temper tantrums and not allowing my daughter to be so
    disrespectful to me.   I have nightmares even thinking about what my
    daughter is going to be like as a teenager, if I don't get a grip on
    this "seeming" idea of hers that if she throws a big enough tantrum,
    she will get what she wants.   I keep feeling more and more like a 
    BAD parent as every day goes by.

    -.1> If you can swing it, why not ask her "out" to dinner, at the
       > pizza/sub-shop/burger place of her choice?  Then let her pick
       > the meal (even if it's four milkshakes), and just hang out
    
    
    YES!  Alex (8.5) and I do this every Thursday night, and the venting of
    meal-frustration is almost palpable.  Although kid cuisine does get *real 
    old* in a hurry (and I could certainly live without the kazillion mini
    toys that are pressed upon us by such establishments), there are some
    perks.  Letting Alex pick the restaurant and food (within a monetary
    ceiling!) gives her a good weekly dollop of POWER  :-) and even though
    her choices are sometimes content-free, she has recently become a
    salad-bar hound!
    
    She likes the arrangement so much that she accompanies me afterward,
    without complaint, to the grocery store for the weekly provisions.
    
    I also agree with previous noters about choosing your battles and then
    giving choices.  Alex likes to wake up at, say, 3AM and try to crawl in
    with me; sometimes I don't mind, but when I do mind we have a
    full-blown "DISCUSSION" that usually ends in tears.  A year or two ago
    we talked about it *during the daytime*, when we were relaxed and not
    furious at each other  :-)  --I batted it back to her court and she
    came up with a *schedule* for when she can bunk with me (a specified
    two nights per week)!  I wouldn't have come up with that on my own, at
    least not without a lot more yelling, heartburn and tears.
    
    Good luck on this (and I don't really mean that you ARE an Archie
    Bunker, I was just trying to read your rule the way a supersensitive
    6-year-old [is that redundant?] would).
    
    Leslie

    
    re: wanting to go out in the rain
    
    Jason has been known to refuse to put on his jacket when it's
    cold enough to warrant one.   I once let him go without one;
    he quickly came back in asking for his coat.  This doesn't
    happen nearly as often as it used to.   He is a child that 
    can NOT be told ANYTHING - he has to learn it on his own. 
    Occasionally, we'll go out on the front porch in the morning
    to "decide" if he needs a coat.   In this way, he feels in
    control of the situation or as if he has a choice.  
    
    Sometimes they are just testing you.   What would she have
    done if you said "go ahead".   We make a game out of
    it at times.  In your example of Jessica wanting to go out
    even though it's pouring (ludicrous idea, right?), I might
    say something like "sure, go ahead, if you're silly enough
    to want to be a duck, but I like you better as a little
    girl...".  Sometimes a little humor can diffuse the tantrum
    and make everyone happy

    re: playing in the rain.
    
    I remember having a neat time walking home from school one
    rainy day when I was about ten.  I felt so free to be already
    wet due to the rain, so I wasn't doing anything bad by standing
    under downspouts and jumping in puddles.
    
    I think "go ahead" would have been instructive...after all,
    research proves that colds (despite the name) are not caused
    by cold or exposure to wet weather.  Next time, let her go
    out and prepare some hot chocolate for when she comes back in.
    See if that works better.
    
    I don't think you're a "BAD parent"--I suffer a bit from
    over-controlling myself--it's a natural thing when you're in a
    hurry to hurry up the kids!
    
    		-John Bishop

    
    also, if the problem is at its worse on weeknights, is 
    there something you could do to change your routine?
    maybe she's just seeking attention - and doesn't care
    whether it's negative or positive.
    
    could you or your husband give her your undivided attention
    for 15-30 minutes as soon as you get home?   maybe do
    most of your dinner preparation the night before - so
    that you just need to reheat?  maybe involve her in the
    the dinner preparation while having a conversation with her
    or listening to some music she likes?    
    
    just a few ideas...it must be frustrating to have every
    evening turn into a battle
    
    cj/

RE: the rain & the temper tantrum.  I think you did fine.  How did she
    react to what you said when you talked to her later after she was
    calmer ?  The idea isn't to always let your child do what they want,
    or to allow temper-tantrums to be successful, but to know your goals,
    stick to them in those areas, and not sweat the smaller stuff.

    Perhaps during a time when she is calm, you might want to sit down
    and discuss things with her.  I'd ask some questions about why she
    feels so angry when you ask her to do something, and let her do a 
    lot of the talking if possible, before explaining your side of things.
    Find out what she is thinking and feeling and why, and then maybe you
    can come up with some solutions or different things to try.  Perhaps
    you could explain to her about how one can communicate disagreement 
    without resorting to temper tantrums, yelling, screaming, and shouting.  
    Give her other options for expressing frustrations, maybe she doesn't 
    know how else to communicate disappointment, frustration, sadness, 
    fear, etc.

    Maybe you can work out some sort of a deal/partnership thing with her:
    each time she does as she is asked without a fuss, and each time she 
    is able to control her emotions and calmly and respectfully raise her 
    objections to what you have said or asked, she gets X number of points 
    on some chart - say 20 points for doing as asked, and 10 points for 
    disagreeing without yelling and shouting.  Use stickers or something 
    to keep track of this, and then when she has accumulated so many points, 
    she can redeem them for some prior agreed upon activity that she enjoys 
    or some object that she wants.  Temper tantrums could mean negative points-
    say -5 for each occurance.  The number of points for each thing should 
    be worked out in advance, and always adhered to in a fair and consistent 
    way.

    I don't remember seeing an indication about whether you were a single
    parent or not, but if you are not, is your partner able to help defuse
    the situation with your daughter ?  I know that my sister and her husband
    will switch off when their three-year old has taken his toll on one or
    the other of his parents patience and stress limits.

    Don't let our suggestions discourage you either.  We're not there, and
    all we know about the situation is what you write in here, and then our 
    own experiences color our perceptions about what we read.  I hope we've
    given you some ideas and hope though.  I wish you well, hang tough !

    Leslie

    I haven't been the mother of a six year old yet, so I'm no authority,
    but it seems to me that it's OK to let kids voice ONE objection to 
    something a parent says.  After all, maybe the child really does have
    a point in her argument.  So I would listen without interruption to
    her once as she explains why she wants to go out in the rain, or
    whatever.  After that, I would (appear to :) consider her side, then
    say yes or no (ocassionally even changing my initial statement based on
    the child's argument), then accept NO more arguments.  At least this way 
    the child feels that she has some control, but the parent has ultimate 
    control.
    
    Also, something I've seen another mother do very effectively is this.
    Whenever the child screamed or yelled their argument, the mother would
    say, "What?  I can't hear you?"  And really act like she couldn't hear
    such a loud noise.  At first the child would just yell louder.  The 
    mother would continue with "I'm sorry, I can't hear you."  Finally the
    mother would let on, "My ears are too sensitive for me to understand
    you when you are so loud.  If you talk more quietly, then I'll be able
    to hear you."  This usually brings on a laugh from the child, and 
    finally a lower, calmer voice.  If you do this consistently, it may
    teach your daughter to state her arguments a little more calmly.  
    Just an idea.
    
    Jane

    I really appreciate all the ideas.   The ideas make a lot of sense and
    I will try to try them out but I don't know if the ideas listed will
    work with my child.
    
    I tried to keep my past weekend relatively fight free, by just trying
    not to make any suggestions that she might think I'm ordering her
    around.   She had a halloween party to go to saturday night, so instead
    of saying to her, Its time to take a bath, which would probably start
    her arguing with with me, I said that it will soon be time to get ready
    for the Halloween party and would you like to take a bath so that you
    will be nice and clean.   Well, it worked asking her if she'd like to
    take a bath rather than saying its time to take a bath.  Even though
    taking a bath is one of her most favorite things to do, telling her
    that its time to take one seem to always throw things into a turmoil. 
    
    Sunday, I told her that since her room needed to be picked up, I would
    be willing to HELP her pick up her room.   So she said OK and we went
    into her room.   I started to help pick up and she just sat on the
    floor and played.   Well, I didn't say anything, I just got up and left
    the room.    A little while later she comes and ask me why I left her
    room.   I told her that I promised to HELP her pick up, not to do all
    the picking up myself.   I told her that I wasn't going to do all the
    work and just let her watch me.  So she said OK and we went back into
    her room and she helped pick up.  This seem to work OK, but I don't
    know how to have reacted, if she had said no I'm not going to pick up
    even if you help.   So,  I will continue to try and not argue or demand
    that she do something.  Especially if its not something that really 
    matters, but I still think that there are a lot of things that are
    non-negotiable and no matter how much she argues she should get her own
    way.  One such instance is going out in the rain:  Although I know that
    it's never been proven that bad weather can make a child sick, I do
    feel that bad weather CAN have adverse affects on a childs' health,
    especially if that child tends to get sick easily.
    
    And then there are instances such as this morning with Jessica and her
    hair.   She is at an age where she feels that she can do everthing
    herself and she doesn't need my help.   So my daughter wanted to put
    her hair in a ponytail this morning and she brushed her hair and had
    her hair up in a ponytail.   But, the ponytail (no matter how hard she
    tried) just didn't look very neat.   She had strands of hair falling
    down out of the pony tail, and I was concerned that she would get to
    school and other children would make fun of her hair.   So I asked her
    very nicely if Mommy could help smooth out her ponytail.   She started
    yelling at me that she couldn't do anything right and that she never
    would.   She was getting very upset, and I said OK Jessica, thats fine,
    just leave your hair as it is and go to school.  Even though I didn't
    want her to go to school with her hair looking like a rats nest, I
    didn't want to argue with her about it either.   So how about this
    dilemma?    When you want your child to look nice for school, but they
    don't want your help.  Is this another one of those, "Dont fight about
    it and just let her do it how she wants?" kind of situation. I did  try
    to explain to her that just because she didn't get her hair perfect,
    didn't mean she couldn't do anything right and that she could keep
    practising and with time, she would be able to do this well also.  
    
    Sometimes, its like I'm not sure what is right and wrong here:  where my
    child is concerned because it seems like most of the things that I try
    are wrong.....
    
    What things are important enough to stand your ground on?   What isn't
    important enough?    I'm confused........
    
    

    Ah *rain* ...I love it!
    
    Whenever the first big rainstorm hit each year, my mother
    would bundle me up and we'd go for a long walk or take a
    bus downtown and window shop.  It left me with fond memories.
    
    Now that I have kids of my own. I take my kids outside the
    first rain of the season and we dance with our arms stretched
    up to the sky.  It doesn't matter what time of day it hits.  
    Two weeks ago we had a small rainstorm that hit at 10:45pm.  
    I got the kids out of bed, told them it was raining and without
    any further explaination, they followed me outside to dance. :^)
    
    If they want to go out and play in the rain without a jacket,
    I have no problems with it. It's just water for heaven's sake.
    
    Jodi- 

    You are in California?     I'm in Massachusetts, and I am already
    finding the weather toooooooo cold and wet.   When I was growing up and
    lived in South Carolina and it rained, my parents always let me go out
    in the rain also.   I can't take that chance with my daughter since she
    has already had two ear infections since school started and although we
    know that germs are what causes colds and not weather, my daughter
    seems to be vulnerable to bad weather.

Here's what we do with our 6 year-old in a similar situation to the
rain instance:

If the answer is "no", then the answer is no.  Period.  No explanation
given unless she asks for one.  If she asks "why", then we have an
opening for the discussion, and possibly negotiating something else.

As for the rain, our daughter goes out in the rain in her bathing suit
(if it's warm enough) otherwise in her raincoat, with clothing that
doesn't matter if it gets wet, and knows that as soon as she comes in,
she needs to get her clothes off and herself into a warm (not hot) bath.

She also tries the "but I never get to..." line on us - our response is
along the lines of "I know you're upset right now that you can't ..."
and not let it "get to us".

/bruce

    RE: .72
    
    
    Yes, we live in California (southern) so the opportunities to 
    actually play in the rain are far and few between.  But...I
    grew up in Seattle, Washington where it rained a good deal
    and could get pretty darn cold.  A kid will generally know
    when to bundle up and get warm.  We live by the live and
    learn philosophy.  
    
    When my son said he didn't want to get dressed for preschool
    (oh so many years ago) we simply said "it's your choice" and
    drove him to school in his underwear.  By the time we reached 
    the parking lot he realized the error of his ways and asked 
    for his school clothes that we brought along (just in case).
    
    Jodi-
    

    Re: cleaning up the room
    
    Sometimes the entire room is too daunting, and kids don't know how to
    tackle a big task.  I would teach her how to break down the tasks. 
    For example, if there are books, barbies, puzzles, and trucks scattered
    about I'd let her pick which one she wants to pick up while you then
    pick one.  Then just finish the task item by item.  This way, she
    learns how to look at a job and figure out how to complete it.
    
    Re: hair
    
    With the hair, you may need to send her to school looking messy
    sometimes.  If you fix her hair after she has tried to do it, it sends
    the message that she isn't up to the job.  I'd ask her every day if she
    wants to do her hair, or if she wants you to do something special with
    it.  If she does it and then goes to school and is unhappy with it
    because it falls out or she gets teased, then the next day she can ask
    you to do the special thing (like a braid).  
    
    This way, she has an alternative that isn't "Mommy's going to do my
    hair because I fail at it every day."  
    
    Or maybe you an convince her to brush it while you put it in the
    ponytail.  Let her comb your hair to show her that sometimes, people do
    things for each other to help each other out.  Or have her zip you up
    or button you up.  Arms just don't reach everywhere and you can show
    her that this isn't something that is related to being 6.
    
    Sometimes it is hard to be a responsible parent who allows a child to
    learn and fail on their own, but in the long run, it is the best thing
    for the child.
    
    judy

    On clothes and hair, within reason, I let Carrie dress and do her hair
    the way she wants it.  She is currently into some sort of "grundge"
    look but she will agree that holey clothes will not be worn to school. 
    (She can wear them on Sundays ;-))  sometimes it is difficult for me to
    see what she has put together to wear, but if it is within my
    definition of decency, oh well.  She is taking better care of her hair
    these days and we no longer have the half hour marathon screams while I
    try to get the rats out of her hair.  (FWIW she is 8)  
    
    As far as the clothes are concerned, I know it is a matter of a few
    years and I will be having the arguements over how much I can spend on
    clothing, I went through this with Lolita through her later teem years. 
    Thank goodness she is now in a college where dressing up is a rarity,
    and bluejeans and work pants are the hieght of fashion.
    
    Meg  
       

    
    Arrrghh!!!
    
    So much to think about and know.  ::Stooker, you have my sympathy.  My
    almost 4 year old and I are going through much of the same, so I have
    readthe replies with interest.
    
    and decided...
    
    I *will* be more patient, REALLY!
    
    I will re-read "How To Talk So Your Kids Will Listen and Listen So Your
    Kids will talk" again.
    
    Try to remember to be more patient and build in more time.  ("Mommy,
    you're always pulling me!")
    
    Give her more choices and know that choices are usually a do-able option
    
    Keep to our few basic rules
    	- you must eat two bites of everything. nothing more
    	- IF you eat a full meal (5 bites of everything) dessert is an
    		option
    	- Teeth brushing must happen once a day
                       
    	- and a few others
    
    Remember to let her dress the way she wants (I love the Jammies at
    Pre-school story: I have a hunch it's in my future!)
    
    Be patient
    
    And, 
    Dance in the rain (or snow) as often as possible
    
    
    
    
    Jamd
    PS
    You're not a Bad Mommy (for what's it's worth, my husband and I are
    known, on occasion, as the Mean Mom and the Bad Dad)
                      

I have to agree with most of the previous replies, and
yes, Elise has gone to school several times in her
jammies.  Once in the winter, without a coat.


I have a story that is related, altho it was my dog,
not my kid.

My sweet, intelligent dog was getting more and more
difficult.  She was always in the trash, or moping
around.  Her appetite was falling off, and she was
not very interested in the world.  The only time
she showed any energy was to misbehave.

I really wondered what was going on, until I realized
I was always yelling at her for one crime or another.
She could not win; it was the only attention she was
getting.

The only solution I could see was to ignore all "bad"
behavior, and praise the hell out of her for *anything*
she did right.  *Anything*.  If she twitched her tail,
I would praise her.

Within 48 hours, she was a new dog, happy and bouncing
again.  Her misbehaviors stopped cold, and she was
pleasant to be with again.

Now, kids are not as simple as dogs, but more than
once in this conference, someone has been at the
end of their rope, and what turned it around was
emphasizing the positive.

So, maybe give it a try.  When she fixes her hair,
tell her you like it.  When you want her to clean up
her room, ask if she'd like you to help her
rearrange the furniture how *she* wants it.  When she
dresses herself (weirdly), tell her she looks nice.
When she plays in the rain, tell her she looks cute
soaking wet.  Hug her alot.  When she screams at you,
fall back to toddler techniques (after all, she's acting
like one), like, please tell me when you are finished,
and wait patiently until she stops screaming.  Don't 
let her get a rise out of you, and if something
doesn't get done, then the hell with it.

And, you aren't a bad mother. If anything, you are
probably expecting too much out of yourself. There is 
so much pressure on us, working and raising kids, 
that we can very easily fall into the trap of trying to
keep that hamster wheel going, without realizing
we aren't getting anywhere.


Good luck.

Pat (aka, Monster Mommy)

    Glad I found this, and have read most of the replies.
    
    Now here's what is driving me positively BALISTIC!
    AJ has to be the worst for Dawdling!  I mean it
    takes hime 15 minutes to get his shoes on for 
    pete'sake, and another 10 to tie them.  Now
    that I'm back at work, chaos prevails.  I feel
    guilty as it is making him get up at 6:45, do 
    I have to haul him out at 6:30?  Will he just use
    the extra time to dawdle so more?  
    
    All he is required to do in the morning, literally
    is go to the bathroom when he gets up, and get dressed
    (I lay out his clothes while he is going to the BR)
    He goes to the "breakfast program" at school, and can
    arrive there anytime after 7, usually I try for 7:15.
    He gets a hot breakfast around 8, and I pack a granola
    bar and milk to hold him until the "breakfast lady"
    arrives.
    
    I've tried everything from praise to screaming, nothing
    seems to speed up the morning.  I've got a headache
    the size of the Grand Canyon from this morning.  His
    winter shoeboots were not to be found, and he ended up
    in his sneakers, which I only pray will arrive home
    not too soaked.
    
    Help me!
    Lyn

    Just a a quick ps to this, my husband is generally
    gone to work by the time AJ gets up.  He also goes
    to school three nights a week, and a study group
    at our house the fourth, so I sort of handle it 
    all.  Not much support from the husband/father.
    
    

    Lynn,
    
    Will the ubiquitous phrase "This is a developmental phase and he will
    grow out of it help?"
    
    Getting him up at 6:30 may help you both out, and gentle prodding
    without screaming helps to.  In this case actions and consequences
    sometimes help.  also, if you have time, maybe tying his shoes for him
    will get the point across tht mornings are time for moving.  With
    Carrie, it is amazing!  This kid can barely move on school days, but is
    often up by 6:30 on Saturday to catch cartoons.  Oh well, just like her
    big sister, I do know this will change.
    
    Meg 

    If he doesn't have his shoes on - why not carry him to the car
    and let him put them in while you are driving.  (so long as it isn't a
    safelty issue).

    I have this same problem in the morning with my seven-year-old
    daughter.  I think she does her early morning thinking at that
    time, because she will just stop what she's doing -- choosing
    which panties to wear, or something equally important -- and ask
    a question that tends to be pretty profound, like "How old do you
    have to be to get married?".
    
    Anyway, I can sometimes solve the problem by making the dressing
    up a race.  She loves the competition and as I'm dressing when she
    is, it's easy for me to say across the hall, "I'm putting my
    socks on.  I'm going to win the race."  Anyway, a number of
    mornings she accepts the challenge and dresses quite quickly.
    
    Another game is to pop in once in a while and really reinforce
    whatever they've accomplished since the last time you popped in.
    "Wow, you've got your socks on already?  Boy, you're quick.
    What'll you have on the next time I show up." 
    
    On the other hand, some mornings are just slow!
    
    Good luck,
    Diana

    re a couple back, dressing in the car isn't an option.  His school
    is literally in our back yard, and a couple turns and we're there.
    I have threatened him that if he isn't ready to go when I am, then
    he can either walk, which is of course an empty threat, or he can
    go as he is, and explain why he is still in his PJ's, or stocking
    feet.  Oh and if I do get him dressed in a reasonable time, the
    latest "thing" is to put his shirts on *backwards*.  He just 
    doesn't seem to care lately.
    
    I have tried to make games of it, and usually end up dressing him.
    It seems that the later I'm running the slower he seems to go.
    Interesting observation though, a couple weeks ago a friend of
    ours who does snow plowing stopped by early on a Saturday morning.
    He offered to take AJ with him, I told AJ if he wanted to go, he
    had to be ready NOW!  The boy was up, dressed (snow clothes too)
    within 5 minutes!  I keep telling him that I just know he can do
    it (this is positive reinforcement right?) so why doesn't he
    pretend that "Ed" is waiting to take him plowing when he gets
    dressed.  That hasn't worked yet either.
    
    Help!!
    lyn

    Lyn, it sounds like AJ doesn't want to go to school and so
    postpones getting ready to go--just as adults might drag 
    out getting ready for an unfun unimportant chore.
    
    Other than getting him up earlier, or having something he
    wants to do/get in the morning contingent on being dressed,
    I don't have any suggestions.  Could you say "No TV until
    clothes are on," for example?
    
    It's also possible he's a slow starter, and another half-hour
    of wakefulness in the morning would help.
    
    You have my sympathy--I'm familiar with the way that the
    more hurried the parent gets, the slower the child gets
    in response.
    
    		-John Bishop

    Maybe you can dress him yourself while he's mesmerized by his favorite
    TV show.  This works for Ilona and Barney.  She's so fixated that she
    doesn't notice I'm putting on her clothes.
    
    It's also important for her to have food in her belly first, so she
    doesn't get cranky.  AJ might just have low blood sugar and feel
    sleepy.  Ilona gets her breakfast before anything else happens.
    
    L

>    I have threatened him that if he isn't ready to go when I am, then
>    he can either walk, which is of course an empty threat, 

Suggestion -- don't make empty threats (or promises).  They encourage your 
kid not to take you seriously.

>   or he can go as he is, and explain why he is still in his PJ's, or
>   stocking feet.  

Have you tried following through on that?  Sounds like a great idea.  Take 
his clothes to daycare.  It might mean you'll have to carry him in, but I bet 
you won't have to do this too many times.  In fact, if it's safely possible 
for him to dress in the car, I'll bet he'll do it.

>    Oh and if I do get him dressed in a reasonable time, the
>    latest "thing" is to put his shirts on *backwards*.  He just 
>    doesn't seem to care lately.

My take on that is to just let him wear it backwards.  By the time kids reach 
AJ's age, most grown ups realize that it wasn't YOU who did it.  So he's the 
one who will get kidded if it's backwards.  If doing it has no shock value 
(to you) then I'd bet that it won't continue.

Clay

    
    Maybe he's tired?  Why not have him
    go to bed earlier, making sure he knows the reason why he is going to
    bed earlier.  This worked for a co-worker, who's son was doing the
    same thing to her.  When she made him go to bed earlier, the problem
    disappeared, both because of the added rest, and the idea that if he
    didn't get going in the morning without causing delays, that bedtime
    would come sooner........