Conference moira::parenting

I'll start this string with this question.

I don't remember this topic being discussed in v3, if so please provide a
pointer.

What is the best way to position 2 car seats (actually 1 car seat and an
infant seat initially then 2 car seats).  

I would like suggestions for:

	When I am traveling alone with both kids.
	When both parents occupy the front seats. 

If it makes a difference, both of our cars are 4 door sedan type that sit
two comfortably in the front (3 uncomfortably) and three in the rear.

Convenience tells me to put the infant in the rear facing position in the
front seat when I am traveling alone and leave the toddler in the middle
position in the back.  Is this the safest?  

When both parents occupy the front seats, should one child be placed on either
side of the back?  What happens if/when there is a third occupant in the back.
Given this is generally going to be someone not in a child restraint, I would
like them to sit on one of the sides so that the seatbelt with the shoulder
harnass can be used.

Are there any books that cover this topic? I am much more interested in safety
than convenience.

Thanks,
Barbara

    
    I'm not sure about when you have "2" carseats in the backseat, but I 
    was told by the fire chief who taught the Infant CPR course I attended
    that the *middle* was the best possible place for a child in the back
    seat.  He told us a sad story of a car accident when the child would of 
    survived had he only been 10 more inches towards the middle. 
    
    But not all cars seatbelts are able to accomodate this position. I know 
    mine won't reach. 
    
    Chris
    

    I was at the same CPR course as Chris, and I have twins, so I asked
    what to do when you have 2 car seats.  His response was to put them in
    the appropriate direction (rear-facing for infants and forward-facing
    for toddlers) in the back seat with them as close to the middle as
    possible.  We have always had our carseats in the back on the ends, but
    pushed as far towards the middle as the seat belts will let us.  That's
    the only way they would both fit.  When we only had 1 baby home, we put
    her carseat in the middle in the rear, but had to adjust when the
    second twin came home.

	What is the reasoning behind putting the infant car seat
	in the front passenger position vs. the rear middle ?

	Karen

    I kept my infants in the front with me because it was easier for me to
    "keep an eye on them".  Too often I found myself looking back to see
    what they were crying or even whimpering about.  It was much safer to
    have them next to me from my perspective.
    
    Don't most accidents happen head-on or rear-ending someone anyway?  I
    rarely hear of a side-hit.
    
    ...just a thought
    
    -sandy
    

    As much as I can understand the rationale for putting children up
    front, and I have done it, the front passenger seat is known as the
    "suicide seat".  I usually feel more comfortable with babies in the
    back seat, and pull over when they fuss.
    

In theory, yes, the centre is the best place ... but if your child is in
the centre and for some reason the restraint fails and the ffront two seats
are bucket type seats, a kiddy has a clear path to the windshield.

So, yes, the centre is best, BUT make sure restraint is fixed properly,
preferably with a rear tether if available (I know they aren't required in
the US but are in Canada ... I wouldn't use a centre position without the
tether for a forward facing seat.

Then for the second seat, generally, behind the driver ... Most accidents
seem to occur at intersections where someone shoots out of a side turning
and hits the passenger side of the car, especially in LOCAL DRIVING.  In
highway driving, this is much less clear though, because in essence this is
the "high speed" side of the car ... it is the side where on coming
traffic passes at about 110 mph as opposed to the passenger side which passes
stationary objects at 55 mph.  On the other hand, the stationary objects
have a lot more stopped inertia (they are usually rooted to the ground!)
than the travelling objects.

So, my choice has been a) centre b) behind the driver.

Stuart

    Stuart-
    
    What is the rear tether that you mention in .-1?
    
    Deb

    The rear tether is a strap that attaches to the seat frame near
    the top of the seat and then attaches by a strong metal clip that
    attaches through a bolt you put through the "speaker" deck behind the
    rear seat.  It is required by Transport Canada because of the number
    of accidents where the seat, when only held by a lap belt, flips
    forward, and ejects the child head first towards the windshield because
    the shoulder straps weren't tight enough and the child's shoulders were
    round enough to slide right through.
    
    They are available for Evenflo and many other brands, especially if the
    model is exported to Canada.
    
    Stuart

    My rationale for having Alex in the front seat was to be able to see
    any kind of choking trouble she might get into (if she spit up, for
    instance).  "Pull over when they fuss"?  Heck no, when they fuss you
    know they're OK!  It's when they're *too quiet* that I panic.
    
    After a few months (can't remember how long exactly) I put her in the
    back, in the middle; I think I figured I'd been tempting fate, and the
    middle-of-the-car proponents had just worn me down.  Plus, Alex had
    more control and strength.  When she'd graduated to a booster seat she
    fell asleep one day with her weight somehow cutting off circulation to
    her arm; it was blue when I looked back to check her.   =8-0  She's
    been back in the front seat ever since (no damage to arm, Thank The
    Deity).
    
    Leslie

Thanks for the response so far, BUT most of them seem to deal with where to
position one car seat.

I currently have my daughter in the middle of the back seat in her car seat.
My question has to do with where to put a second seat that initially will
be a rear facing infant seat.

Putting both in the rear as close to the middle as possible sounds the safest.
But I wonder given the angle vs how the seat belts are designed if this is
true.  I would think there would be more security in placeing the child
restraint in the middle of where the belt was designed for.  Given this
scenario the child seats would be directly behind the two front seats.

So, who gets the middle of the back seat, the toddler or the infant??

Thanks,
Barbara

    
> So, who gets the middle of the back seat, the toddler or the infant??

    I would say the least resilient.

    As far as who gets the middle, I have Brian (5 years old) in the middle
    in his booster seat and Neil (almost 2) behind the driver's seat in
    his car seat.  It's been this way since Neil was an infant because
    Brian likes to be able to see while we're driving.  He can see better
    through the space between the seats than he can when he's behind a
    headrest.  I'll probably leave them that way until Neil is old enough
    to realize the difference and complain.  For now, he usually sleeps in
    the car anyway.  I like having one in the middle so that a side seat is
    available for another passenger -- it would be hard to climb between
    the two car seats if they were on the sides.
    
    One recall I remember on the FP car seats was for the button that kept
    the shoulder straps from retracting too far.  In some cases, the button
    popped off.  In the newer models the button has been replaced by a
    thick piece of material that surrounds the strap.
    
                                                     Tracy

    We have a carseat for my (18 month) daughter that has the padded bar
    which flips from back to front when you buckle her in.  The problem is,
    she HATES that car seat, probably for several reasons:  the bar seems
    to press on her tummy, the bar blocks her vision (she's petite), and
    she just hates being restrained.  My husband adjusted the seat several
    ways but her reaction is the same.
    
    I've been seriously considering selling this seat and getting one that
    just has straps attached to a plastic breast shield.
    
    Are the straps-shield seats less safe than the straps-flip-bar types?
    
    Do other people's kids hat the flip-bar seats?  Did they fare better in
    the straps-shield kind?  Is it worth the money to sell one seat and buy
    another (new) one?
    
    (I'm the same Mom who recently asked about getting an umbrella stroller
    for my daughter who now hates her regular stroller.  It may just be
    that she's a very active free spirit who will detest any form of
    restraint.)
    
    Thanks,
    Laura

    One further question:  If we get the strap-shield type, is she more
    likely to wiggle out?  My daughter is a little Houdini.  If she can get
    out, I'd rather have her uncomfortable but safe in the bar type seat.
    
    L

    
    Hi Laura,
    
    I think you might just be in the "I hate my car seat" phase.  We went
    through this with Jason; he came out of it about the time that he 
    was big enough to climb in and out of the seat on his own.   Or, was
    it about the time when he learned to tell us to "Buckle up!"  8-) 
    Were it me, I don't think I'd spend $60-80 on a new car seat just yet.
    
    We have 2 Fisher-Price car seats ("strap-shield type") and one older
    car seat ("bar type seat") and we've never noticed a difference in 
    his preference to either - other than the fact that he seems to be
    more comfortable sleeping in the bar-type seat.   There's no place 
    to rest a nodding head on the Fisher-Price car seat. 
    
    As far as wiggling out, Jason has gotten his arms out of the straps 
    of his bar-type car seat, but has never done the same in the
    strap-shield type.   However, as I said, his bar type seat is about
    7 years old, I think, and I'm sure the safety of the new seats is
    better.
    
    Carol

    I have a z28 camaro.  Let me tell you...it is not meant for a car
    seat.  The shoulder straps break all the time and needless to say
    I am not comfortable at all about transporting my baby in it.
    
    First of all, there is a hump in the middle of the back seat.  There
    is no way you can put the baby in the middle.  Has anyone else figured
    out a way?
    
    Second, the seats do not go forward enough to recline the infant
    car seat where it should be while facing to the rear. Anyone else
    have this problem.  (I wish we could afford to buy a new car and
    get rid of the heap!)
    
    I am going back to the manufacturer to get the entire seat belt
    system replaced.  I, personally, don't think adults are safe
    either.
    
    Anyone got any advice?
    
    Thanks, Kristen

Just thought I'd add my European 2 sous.

In most European countries it is illegal to have a child under the age of
12 in the front seat of a car.  Many countries are now also making it law that 
rear seat passengers have safety restraints (seat belts or child seats).  It
has already been law for front seat passengers for quite some time.

I think infants can be in the front seat in a rear facing child carrier since 
a friend of mine had one and never had a complaint at the border crossing.

If you break any of these laws, the police will stop you and fine you on the 
spot if they see you.

In most European cars there isn't much room in the back seats.  If you want to 
put two child's seats, you put them behind the two front seats.

ccb

With the European law..... what do large families do?  What if there are
more children (under 12) than will fit in the back?  No exceptions?

    Around Christmas time we got another car set for my daughter.. an
    Evenflow Ultra Premier (real good sale price!).  Personally, I prefer
    the seats with the barrier in the front.  I think it gives a bit extra
    protection should Jackie get her arms out (which she has done in both
    this car seat, and her Century shield-type car seat) or if we ever get
    into an accident.  Both shield seats and barrier seats have good and 
    bad points, and I think it's a matter of opinion.  My brother bought a
    Renalux swivel seat for their son because of his back problems.  That seat
    is neither sheild or barrier, but has individual should straps that
    snap into the safety latch.  This seat has, as well as my seats have,
    the clip to hold the shoulder straps together to prevent the child from
    escaping or being thrown out of the seat.
    
    Mary                                                 
    

    One question concerning booster seats.  My daughter is 22.5 months and
    is a big girl (34", 30lbs or so).  At what point do children transfer
    from car seats to booster seats?  I believe at 30lbs the switch can be
    made, but I don't plan on doing this for at least another year because
    I'm just not comfortable with it.  What are you opinions?  Also, what
    kind of booster seats do you recommend?  I gave a Cosco seat to my SIL
    and I don't want it back.. I personally don't like this particular
    booster seat.
    
    Thanks,
    Mary
    

Re .20 

>>With the European law..... what do large families do?  What if there are
>>more children (under 12) than will fit in the back?  No exceptions?

If you have more children, you do not buy a small car :-)  There are no 
exceptions.   A friend of mine who has four children has a Renault Espace.
Most station wagon models are wide enough for three children in the back and
our Mercedes is also wide enough for three children.  You virtually NEVER
see cars here where you can put three people in the front in any case.

ccb

    Mary (.22),
    
    My understanding is that it is best to keep kids in their car
    seats as long as they fit them, which is generally determined
    by height. The child's  head should be supported by the back of
    the carseat...otherwise there is not enough protection from
    whiplash-type injury. (Please correct me if this is wrong,
    noters!)
    
    My son is approaching the height at which he will have to move
    to a booster (he's 4.5, by the way), so I am also looking for 
    recommendations for ones that can be used with both a plain
    lap belt or with both lap and shoulder belts, if possible.
    
    Lucy
    

>    by height. The child's  head should be supported by the back of
>    the carseat...otherwise there is not enough protection from
>    whiplash-type injury. (Please correct me if this is wrong,
>    noters!)
>    

According to the laws adopted by most states / countries etc ... the
criterion to move from car seat to booster seat (or in some cases seat
belt) is weight alone and this is usually 18kg (40 lb).  This is very
often ridiculous ... Many children have well outgrown many car seats
by height and or physical size by 40lbs.  Some manufacturers seem to
think children have a very high density!  Som jurisdictions use age
which is even more ridiculous.

The usual meaningful parameter kids outgrow car seats by first is height.
The bulge at the back of the head (i.e. back-bottom of the cranium) MUST 
be below the top of the car seat, or in the case of seats where the top of 
the seat bends backwards, the "bulge" must still be supported with very
little backward movement of the head.

If your vehicle has low backed seats, the child may not be able to use a
booster seat at all for the same reason.  The head must be supported by the 
seat back in the same way.  So if the child is too tall and the back-bottom
of the cranium is not backed by the seat back, then away with the booster seat.

While this is not written into the laws in most places, it is unlikely that
the police will give you grief.  This is one of those cases where the spirit
of the law is more important than the actual letter, becasue to follow the
letter could actually expose your child to more risk.

Stuart

    Stuart and others,
    
    What are your thoughts on booster seats and seat belts?
    
    1. Is a booster seat (with lap belt only) always better than just a 
       plain lap belt for a 30/40/50 lb child? 
    
    2. At what size/weight is it safe to put a child in just a plain
       lap belt in the back seat?
    
    3. Is it safer to put a child in a booster in the front seat with
       lap and shoulder belts than to put the child in the back with
       a booster and lap belt only?
    
    We are about to move our 4-year-old out of the car seat to make way
    for the baby, so these questions are bothering me right now. Thanks!
    
    Lucy

    Just briefly, and as I did in the previous version.  Call or write the
    Federal governments' Department of transportation.  They have a
    *generic* list of DOT tested and "approved" (that's a misnomer, it's
    not like the good housekeeping seal of approval, it simply means it
    meet the DOT's criteria for not breaking under impact of a car accident
    at XX miles per hour).
    
    There may be a charge, something like $1 to 3, but the last time I
    requested a list it was free, however it takes a few weeks to arrive. 
    They are in Washington DC, call 202-555-1212 for the number.
    
    I work for our town ambulance, an oncall systems, and have had a few
    pedi traumas, but for the most part if the child is *properly*
    restrained in a car seat, they usually will escape with little or no
    injury.  In fact many times we will not move the kids at all, simply
    move them to the ambulance right in the car seat, in this way they are
    pretty much immobilized.
    
    As for the toddler to booster seat question.  What I did, personally,
    was to leave AJ in his seat until he was 4-1/2, he was about 38" and
    30-something pounds.  But his seat was quite roomy.  We found it good
    that he could fall asleep in his seat and not "flop over".  We never
    actually bought a booster seat of any kind.
    
    The rule still holds, if the child's neck is above the top of the car
    seat, then it's time to move into a booster seat.  But there are very
    few I cold recommend.
    
    just some thoughts...
    lyn

    OK, here's my "what would you have done?"
    
    Last Saturday I stopped at the Hebert Candy mansion in Shrewsbury.  We
    were in and out before the bunny (and massive crowds) arrived.  As we
    left, perhaps a half hour before the bunny was due, comes a mini-size
    Blazer type vehicle.  First comes the driver, a woman of some "serious"
    weight, and in the back of the vehicle she looked like she either had
    an entire boyscout troop or every neighborhood child, looked to ages
    like 8 to 10, maybe 8 boys.
    
    I started to say something to her, like a gentle reminder that the
    state says ALL children under 12 MUST be in seatbelts.  But I figured
    if I did I'd start a scream scene.  
    
    What would you have done? or even better, if were the driver of the
    blazer what could I have said to you, in a gentle  non offensive way
    that would have made you realize that you were endangering so many
    young lives?
    
    The basis for this question is a result of an incident that happened
    just before christmas.   A young family was parked at the local
    convienience store, the young mother was in the front seat holding (I'd
    guess) a 2 or 3 year old in her lap, no seat belt at all.  This
    aparently was because the christmas tree was taking up the back seat
    and load space of the tiny station wagon.  
    
    I tried to gently suggest that what she was doing was dangerous, even
    if it were only a short and isolated venture, and maybe the tree should
    have been put on the roof.  This poor mother went hysterical started
    screaming and crying, I mean literally, about how she was a good mother and
    how she loved her child and so on.  The husband never said a word to me or
    his wife, I attempted to apologize for upsetting her, she refused to
    listen.  I was wearing my jacket from the ambulance squad (a baseball
    type we all bought personally, not the "official issue" jacket) and do
    have a "Fire Department" license plate on the front of the car, so it
    was clear (I assumed) that I wasn't out on purpose to make a scene, but
    maybe, just maybe had some true knowledge of danger.  
    
    I'm not out on a campagne or anything, just that these things make my
    skin crawl, and I really want to scream "where's the cops when you need
    them!"
    
    Any ideas for handling these situations?
    
    Lyn  

Lyn,

Why be so apologetic about upsetting her?  Maybe if she's upset, she'll
think harder next time about risking her children's life.

	-Neil

>    1. Is a booster seat (with lap belt only) always better than just a 
>       plain lap belt for a 30/40/50 lb child? 

Depends on the particular booster seat, height and weight of the child, but
generally, I prefer the booster seat, especailly where it has a large
padded front-rest.  Unless a lap belt is worn correctly, it can almost
slice the abdomen in an impact, and when a kiddy moves around you have no
idea where the lap belt will be.  There are some booster seats in which there
is no front-rest and the belt slides through seat "arms" and across the front.
The belt is the only thing protecting the front.  This type of seat is, IMHO,
potentially more dangerous than the seatbelt alone.

>    2. At what size/weight is it safe to put a child in just a plain
>       lap belt in the back seat?

Keep the child in a booster until the back of the cranium reaches the top
of the seat back.

>    3. Is it safer to put a child in a booster in the front seat with
>       lap and shoulder belts than to put the child in the back with
>       a booster and lap belt only?

I can think of no situation in which a child is safer in the front seat.
With or without booster in the back is safer than the front.  For young
children, the shoulder strap is usually useless anyway and has to be tucked
behind the back.

>    We are about to move our 4-year-old out of the car seat to make way
>    for the baby, so these questions are bothering me right now. Thanks!

Check your 4 years old's height in the seat.  Is the bump on the back of
his/her head withing an inch or two of the top ?  If so, time for a *good*
booster - If not consider a second car seat ... maybe rent an infant seat
for 6 months.

If in the booster, the back of the head is above the seat back still,
forget the booster.  (Some cars have low seat backs.)

Stuart

    
    Lyn,
    
    To answer your question, if it were a stranger, I'd mind my own
    business. Where do you draw the line ? Do you attempt to educate
    pregnant women you see smoking or drinking ? Do you chastise women
    who chose to formula feed ? I often see what you have described and
    it bothers me, but, I'm sure these people are well apprised of the
    dangers.
    
    When I say "where do you draw the line" I'm speaking hypothetically
    and not directed at you.
    
    Personally, I've read the books and taken the classes regarding 
    infant/child care and I'm well aware of the common dangers. If
    a stranger were to try to tell me what was best for my baby I would
    let them know, in short order, that their comments are not welcomed
    and to mind their own business.
    
    
    

   re: talking to strangers about potential dangers...
   
   Here's some questions.. no answer :-), just questions ... 
   
   Do you risk offending people who don't want or appreciate your
   opinion (even if completely factual) to possibly warn those people
   who really didn't know, or didn't remember, or who just weren't
   thinking for a moment?  
   
   As someone else asked - is it a big deal if you offend or upset
   someone by bringing this up?  
   
   Another interesting twist to this particular issue is the legal
   aspect - in this case, the action being discusses is not only
   risky, but illegal.  While it could be seen as equally offending to
   comment to a pregnant woman about drinking or smoking, neither of
   those actions is illegal.  Does that change the picture?  Does it
   change it enough to overrule the interest to avoid making a scene?
   
   Hmmmm..
   
   - Tom
   

On the way into work this morning, I heard a bizarre story on the radio news.

A man had just taken his children (one and infant) to the hospital to see 
their mother (the man's wife).  He put the infant in the car seat, and put the 
car seat on the car roof.  He then strapped the other two kids in, and drove 
off, with the car seat still on the car roof.  His travels took him down some 
side streets, then down Massachusetts Interstate 290, a high speed road.  The 
car seat started to shift, making a scraping noise on the roof.  The man 
realized what he had done, but before he could stop, the carseat went flying 
off the roof.

The baby was unhurt.

Clay

    I am so glad I didn't see that one!!  I definately would have freaked!
    
    -sandy
    
    (who has lost milk, papers, etc, but never a kid!)

    WOW...and to think that while pulling out of a parking space yesterday
    I was embarrased when a man stopped me and reminded me that my 
    purse was on the roof.
    
    I can't believe no one would have stopped him sooner???????????
    
    Angie

    I heard about this on the radio.  At first, I had this horrible scary
    feeling about the whole thing.  Like, how could he????
    
    Then, when I heard that the baby was okay, I felt so relieved.
    Some days (after being sleep-deprived, overwhelmed, or stressed out) I
    can understand how this might happen.
    
    What a story this baby will have to tell his grandchildren!  Imagine
    being 3 months old and surviving this just fine.
    
    judy

    This story made channel 5 news last night. The baby was reportedly
    giggling when a passerby stopped and picked him up out of the road!
    Probably thinking: "Let's do it again!"  ;-)
    
    Mike

   Well, I was running late this morning, and caught a few minutes on
   one of the national morning programs... this guy in Worcester is
   going to be famous... his story made it to a national show!  They
   even had a photo of the baby...  :-)

   - Tom
   

    re: being famous.
    
    I caught this story on our local news last night and I live in
    Pittsburgh, PA.
    
    Angie

It must have made all the national news stations...

I caught it on one of the local radio stations here in Phoenix yesterday
morning...

must have been quite a sight...

Can you imagine being the car following this guy?  Trying to get his attention,
but also being ready to avoid the carseat?


Then I called my husband to tell him, figuring we'd get a good laugh and he
says:  "I've come close to that".  He says he was just kidding, but I
don't know if I dare leave Elise with him ever again :-).

    I bet the Gerry Car Seat people are going to see increased sales over
    the next few months! ;-)
    
    Mike

    We had this story on the news last night in England. Now he's 
    world famous...
    
    Elizabeth

    I would like to go back to the discussion of when to move a child from 
    a toddler seat to a booster seat.  Chelsea, now 2 and two months, has
    been complaining of her "body hurting", or her "shoulders hurting", or
    her "tummy hurting" lately when in her car seat.  The car seat is a
    Century with the padded bar in front.
    
    The previous discussions were around when is a child two big for a car
    seat.  My question is when is a child big enough for a booster seat. 
    Chelsea is about 32 lbs, and 36".
    
    Any thoughts,
    
    Paula
    

    It is a judgement call which only you can make bsed on your child and
    your seat. Strictly, a child should stay in the child seat until he/she
    has outgrown it and not be moved on before.  That said, sometimes
    practical reasons, like another baby in the family needs the seat 
    and it's likely only a matter of a few months until the child outgrows
    it, tend to force the issue a bit.
    
    To be honest, it sounds like Chelsea is still a little young to
    graduate ... most kiddies are 3+ before they graduate to a booster.
    It sounds as if she is trying to find lots of excuses to move out
    of the car seat ... ours did!  This hurt ... that hurt and so on
    until we made it clear that this was non-negotiable!
    
    If I had to make a judgement call, I'd be examining fit closely ...
    when seated in the seat squarely is her front rubbing the bar, or
    is she just slouching into it.  Are the shoulder straps too tight
    pulling her shoulders down ?  Is the bump at the back of her head
    within a couple inches of the top of the seat?  Is her weight within
    a few pounds of the seat limit ?
    
    If she still fits the seat and there are no pressing reasons to move
    her on, then she should stay put.
    
    Stuart
    

    I know that there have been previous discussions about toddler car
    seats, but some are pretty old, so I thought I'd reopen this.  Our son
    is 6 months old and ready to graduate from his infant car seat.
    
    We are leaning towards the Fisher Price, over the Century (although, we
    were very pleased with the Century infant seat), and just wanted to
    hear any feedback.
    
    Also, does anyone know of the Consumer Reports recommendations off the
    top of their head?  (We're going to buy two seats tomorrow, most likely.)
    
    Thanks a lot,
    
    Leslie

    We got a carseat with the swing-bar design, as described in an earlier
    reply.  My daughter hated it.
    
    We were kindly loaned a carseat with the strap-shield design.  My
    daughter still doesn't like being restrained, but she obviously does
    not hate this particular seat.  She doesn't cry and struggle with it.
    
    A few considerations before you buy a swing-bar:  
    
    * Is your child small for her age?  She may have trouble seeing over
    the bar.  If the width of the bar is small, this may not be a problem.
    
    My daughter amuses herself by watching me turn the key and use the
    shifter.  (Her seat is in the middle of the back and she can see
    between the front seats.)  When I let her hop into the front, she knows
    where and how to insert the key, and expertly plays with the shifter
    and other controls.  Too bad she can't see over the steering wheel -:)
    
    * Is your child highly active?  Does he play with his feet?  If so, the
    bar will get in the way.  
    
    If you get the strap-shield design, just be sure to cinch up the
    sliding buckle, so it is right under the child's chin.  Otherwise she
    can wiggle out.  Even wiggling out one arm substantially reduces her
    protection.
    
    L

    We have two different types of child seat for Shannon, the "swing bar"
    type and the strap shield type (has a triangular shield attached to the
    straps).  We ALL prefer the latter.  It is easier to get her in and out
    of it, and she can see more, move more etc.
    
    We bought the swing bar type long before she was big enough to use it. 
    We have regretted it since!
    
    -beth

    We bought three of the 5-point harness type carseats (I think Cosco
    is the only one who makes this type) primarily because Consumer Reports
    preferred this style.  They had no _objection_ to the shield or swing
    bar styles, they just hadn't done any testing on them yet.  As an aside,
    the 5-point is also the least expensive type, but that was not a factor
    in our decision.
    
    If I had it to do over, I would not buy this type again.  The way this
    type of seat is designed, the length of the straps can only be adjusted
    by taking the whole seat out of the car, turning it upside down and
    playing with the strap locks underneath the seat.  This is a major
    pain, especially "between seasons" when you're never sure if your child
    will be wearing a heavy jacket, a sweater, just a shirt, etc.  The
    child is either tightly squeezed inside the straps, or not safely held
    in place if the straps are too loose.  It also means that you're
    constantly adjusting it as the child grows.
    
    But alas, since we own three of them (two for us, and one for our
    family daycare provider), I'll guess we'll live with them
    
    Looking forward, what type of booster seats do people recommend?

Re: .49
  >>  We bought three of the 5-point harness type carseats (I think Cosco
  >>  is the only one who makes this type) primarily because Consumer Reports
  >>  preferred this style.  They had no _objection_ to the shield or swing
  >>  bar styles, they just hadn't done any testing on them yet.  As an aside,
  >>  the 5-point is also the least expensive type, but that was not a factor
  >>  in our decision.
    
  Renolux and Evenflo also make 5-point seats. My Renolux has the ability
    to swivel which makes it easier to load a child into the middle of the
    back seat, although it is a pain to adjust the straps. The Evenflo
    model, which is difficult to find, has an up-front strap adjustment.
    
    Sue
    

    Well, we have the "swing bar" type (Century 5000 or something).
    We've used it for 2.5 years, and no complaints.  To each their own!
    
    /Deb

    We're satisfied with the Renolux 5-point seat.  
    
    We got it at the strong urging of my brother-in-law who has been involved 
    in litigating some suits against carseat manufacturers. 
    
    Gene
    
    who grew up before there were carseats and, even, seatbelts. 

    
    I would not reccommend the Cosco bar-type. We got one for a shower 
    present and aren't real happy with it, but due to finances it will have
    to do for now.   The thing I don't like about it is the straps are very
    close together, and tend to dig into Michaels neck. It looks very
    uncomfortable. I'm hoping it gets better as he grows, I've yet to take
    it out of the car to see if anything can be done with it.
    
    Chris
    
                    

    We have the Evenflo Ultara 1 (I think).  It has a padded bar that lifts
    up to put the child in, and the straps.  At first we hated it, but
    we've gotton used to using it.  I think it fits an older toddler better
    than a young one.

    
    We also have the Evenflo Ultara with the padded bar, and we love it. 
    Our second seat is the shield type, and it is very difficult to strap
    the kids into.  The straps retract into the back of the seat, and we
    end up yanking  on it to get it over their heads!  It is also much
    easier for my kids to escape out of the shield type than the bar type. 
    Keep this in mind if you have active children.

    I heard a news tidbit a couple of weeks ago saying that some
    recent study found that plain lapbelts for kids are worse than
    no belt at all (naturally all the details were missing - this was
    a radio news quickie). The idea is that plain lapbelts can cause 
    worse injuries than they prevent, in case of a crash. I assume
    that a booster is always safest, for a kid who has outgrown a 
    carseat, as we have discussed earlier in this note.
    
    Does anyone have any more information on this study, or remember
    where it might be published?
    
    Lucy
    
    

    What you heard is true, in a sense.  The lap belts alone can cause
    spinal injuries in a severe forward impact accident (front-end
    collision), but no seat belt at all can make the child a projectile,
    and send the child *through* the front windshield at some mind boggling
    speeds.  (there is a formula of speed of your car times something else
    times something else, but I never learned it, didnt' feel it important)
    
    The other thing to consider is that in all 50 states children under a
    certain age, in MA it's 12, MUST be restrained.  I typed the law
    verbatum in the previous version, but pretty much says in a DOT
    approved car seat up until age 5, and a seatbelt until 12. 
    
    Take it from someone who has taken enough injured children from motor
    vehicle accidents, it is NOT a pleasant experience for anyone.  Seeing
    an injured child hits home a little too much.  I wouldn't want to be
    the one to tell you your child is dead or permanently damaged, and could 
    have done much better had he/she had a seat belt on.  There is one
    thing that will make my blood boil, and that's to see a child or
    children bouncing around loose (unrestrained) in a vehicle.  The one
    that particularly bothers me is the kids that are loose and peeking
    forward between the two front bucket seats, or even worse the kids who
    ride in the parent's lap, in the front with or without seatbelts!
    
    I figure that if they are now making Pet seatbelts, there must be some
    validity to being restrained!
    
    Not a rathole here, just some real hard tough facts of life I have
    personally experienced.
    
    By the way, most cars built since the late 80's have shoulder belts
    installed front and back.  Usually the only seat without a shoulder
    harness is the one in the center of the back seat.
    
    Lyn
    (the EMT and then the MOM!)

THis is one of those things like the argument about being thrown clear of
an accident by not wearing seat belts.

Lap belts can cause extensive internal injuries, especially in serious
accidents.  But the truth of the matter is that they can save a LOT
more injuries in less serious accidents.  In an emergency stop for example
an unbelted child could easily be a projectile if not belted in, bashing
head into seat backs, windshields etc, with ensuing spinal injuries.

MOST accidents where people suffer extensive internal injuries occur because
the belt is NOT WORN PROPERLY.

The lap belt (whether lap belt only, or the lap part of a lap shoulder
combination belt) must be worn as low down on the abdomen as possible
such that the belt sits right in the torso leg bend.  The belt must NOT
be worn higher, around the waist for example ... IT MUST BE WORN BELOW
THE WAIST ... this way the pelvic and hip bone structure can take some 
of the strain ... the internal organs at waist level can't take the strain.

A lot of manufacturers put the buckle on a stalk, to make it easier to find.
The problem is that often the stalk brings the lap belt too high for safety
for thin people or children.  If your car uses stalks that don't allow
you to keep the belt easily below your waist, complain the the car
manufacturer.  They should fix this.

So the bottom line is wear it, and wear it properly ...  Yes, in serious
accidents, it may cause internal injuries, but what would have happened
to an unbelted child ... use your imagination  ...

Stuart

I just purchased a Dodge Caravan with the new integrated child seats.  Has 
anyone read or heard any info on the safety of these seats versus the 
conventional child seats you strap into the car?  


\debbie

    There was someone who noted in, I think the previous version of
    Parenting or in Carbuffs, that there was a metal hinge or bracket that
    protruded at or near head height that he thought made this seat
    arrangement dangerous ... something to check out.
    
    Also, from the appearances of these seats, they do not remove the need
    for an infant seat ... nor a toddler seat for a good while.  They
    certainly appear to solve the later years toddler seat / booster seat
    problem ... but seemed VERY expensive for that.
    
    Stuart

    Re: my entry .57 (lap belts)
    
    I didn't mean to imply that I or anyone else in this conference would 
    ever choose not to belt their kid in, in one form or another...I was
    just wondering if anyone had seen a complete version of this study
    or report. I wanted to see exactly what they were concluding. 
    
    Lucy

    I have seen the report, unfortunately it was light years ago.  I also
    remember an article on 60 minutes or some similar news type program,
    again light years ago.  It interviewed either the family or the boy who
    had been paralized by an accident where he was belted in by only lap
    belts, and suffered spinal damage, and paralysis.  There was a
    dramatization using the National safety council "dummies", and it was
    rather graphic.  (It may have been one of or in-service training film,
    but I tend to doubt that).
    
    My best advise is to contact the National Safety Council.  There is a
    branch in Boylston (might be W. Boylston) MA on route 70, or the Dept
    of Transportation in Washington DC for a complete report.  At the least
    you might get a verbal synopsis of the report.  The DOT will take your
    request over the telephone.
    
    Have not had any first hand experience with the car seats in the
    minivans, but just from looking at them they looked uncomfortable, not
    padded enough, and seemed to have a few unprotected hard edges
    (hindges mostly).
    
    Lyn
    

    I saw something too on Canadian TV, and hence my response.  The
    reaction of the Canadian Dept of Transport was as reported ...
    
    Yes in major accidents, there is a high risk of internal injuries
    from lap belts, but an unsecured body in these accidents would
    likely suffer severe to fatal injuries anyway.
    
    In minor accidents, there is a low risk of injuries but an unsecured
    body would still likely suffer minor to severe injuries.
    
    In most cases, the risks of lap belt only to no belt was well worth
    wearing the belt.
    
    To reduce the chance of internal injuries wear the belt as physically
    low as possible on the pelvis ensuring that the belt lays flat across
    the body (no twists etc.)
    
    Spinal injuries cannot really be avoided unless the upper torso is
    restrained with a shoulder strap, and even then neck injuries become 
    more common.
    
    Stuart
    

    Thanks, Lyn and Stuart, you guys always have good info -- one
    reason I love this file.
    
    Lucy  
           

    I have another question on the minivans with the builtin car
    seats. 
    
    How built in are they -- when your kid gets large, can you take
    them out at all? 
    
    Also, how large a child will they hold?  How much do they restrict
    the child's view? 
    
    --bonnie

    We rented a van with the seats.  They are "hidden" behind the cushion
    of the seat.  You have to pull a lever to get the seat cushion to fold
    down and the straps are concealed.  The cushion folds down and is the
    booster/seat for the child and the straps are the typical harness type
    straps - there are no shields, etc.  They seem secure enough and are
    positionable - we had a 21 month old sit in them for a short period, so
    I can't give you information for the long haul.  The seem extreemly
    convenient, but I can't vouch for their effectiveness.
    
    -sandy
    
    If you are really interested - check out a van at your local dealer. 
    
    

I have a question about car seats.

We are due in March and we've started looking at baby furniture, etc.  We found
a very nice carseat that we liked (an Evenflow Ultara) that is listed for 
newborns through the age of 7.  We thought that by buying this seat we would
overcome the expense of buying an infant carseat and then having to buy another
one later.  My sister in law told me that the newborn is still much too small
for the bigger car seat and that we would still need an infant car seat for the
first couple of months.  Is this true?

Thanks 
Maureen

    re: .68
>one later.  My sister in law told me that the newborn is still much too small
>for the bigger car seat and that we would still need an infant car seat for the
>first couple of months.  Is this true?
    
    Well, as the manufacturer said, technincally it is ok for newborns. 
    (Though some seats have a minimum weight requirement). However, 
    babies go though a lot of physical changes in the first several months.
    When they are first born they have little or no control of their neck
    muscles so they need a seat that can recline. This helps them keep
    their heads up and air passages clear. If the seat you're looking at
    reclines far enough it may work ok. Another option is to try to borrow
    or buy a second-hand infant car seat. Another advantage to an infant seat
    is that they may do double duty as a infant seat in the house. 

    
    I know that you don't have the same brands in the U.S. but maybe this
    will help.
    
    I just bought a car seat this afternoon.  The brand name is Bebe 
    Comfort.   The car seat is for babies from 0-4 years.  It can be 
    attached in the car either facing forwards or facing backwards.
    It has an adjustment knob which actually brings the arms of the
    seat in closer for a more snug fit or wider for more room.  As
    well, it has two heights.  One for reclining and one for sitting
    up straighter.
    
    For a baby from 0-9 kg, they recommend that it faces to the rear.
    For a baby from 10-18 kg, they recommend that it faces forward.
    
    At first, when I realized that it would have done Sean from when
    he was newborn through to 4 years, I wished that I had just bought
    it in the beginning. 
    
    Yet, in retrospect, we have gotten a lot of use out of Sean's current
    car seat.  It is for infants.  It has a handle to carry it like a 
    basket.  It is much lighter...much less bulky than this new car seat.
    It was great to use for leaving him at the sitters...for carrying 
    him into restaurants...etc.
    
    No answers...just my thoughts.
    
    Cheers,
    
     Carol

    When my baby was on the way money was pretty tight...and car seats
    don't come cheap.  During Lemaze I found an organization in my area
    that rents infant car seats.  It's called the Visiting Nurses
    Association.  The car seats are in excellent shape.
    
    The car seat cost me 20.00 and I kept it for 6 months.  When I returned
    it I got 10.00's back.  
    
    Your doctor may be able to give you the number for an organization
    in your area that does the same thing.....I know it helped me out a
    lot!
    
    

    Some combined infant/toddler seats come with a head pillow that can be
    fit in during the infant use stage. OR, you can purchase separately
    inflatable or padded/quilted inserts to place in a toddler seat for use
    with an infant. It makes it less wobbly, especially for a newborn.
    Commonly available at Toys R Us and department stores.
    

    Our carseat, not made any longer so brand isn't important, was one that
    went from infant to 40 pounds.  I do think I remember a 6 pound minimum
    weight sticker somewhere.  AJ was exactly 5 lbs at birth, so we cheated
    for the first pound.
    
    I bought one of those head stabilizer pillows, it had snaps if I wanted
    to disconnect it, we also used the thing in the Kangarockaroo, as the
    same principal.  Since he was born in winter we had the added bulk of
    snow suit, and an extra blanket around him.  I always felt he was
    "packed in" nice and secure.  We actually used this until he was about
    4, and almost 40 pounds.  It certainly got it's money worth.  It had a
    "five point" restraint system, and a padded thing that flipped over his
    head, to take him in and out.  
    
    My opinion, both as mother and EMT is if you can get an infant seat for
    little or nothing, fine then do it, If you can't then just get the one
    seat, it will do just fine.  You may also call the Dept of
    Transportation in Washington DC, and obtain a list of DOT tested
    (disclaimer:  not "approved" there is a difference) car seats.
    
    Contact me directly if you need more infor.
    
    Lyn

    To continue from my earlier reply - another consideration in having an
    infant seat is its usefulness in the house. Both my sons sat in their
    infant car seat in the house, both on the floor and on the kitchen
    table, for many months. I used to think that my first son would become
    an adult who only slept in chairs since he napped all the time the
    first 3 months in his carseat.
    
    So, an infant seat with the base that stays in the car could also serve
    as an infant seat in the house too.
    

    One of the problems with the toddler car seats being used for infants
    is that the bar that comes down over the head is designed to rest
    in front of the child's waist, but is often too high for a newborn and
    their head ends up hitting the bar instead of their waist. This was
    demonstrated to us by a pediatric nurse at the hospital using a
    newborn-sized doll.
    
    Mike

Thank you all for your replies.  I went to Burlington Coat FActory and put an
infant seat on lay a way this afternoon.  It is the type that you  can carry
into the house as well and it has a bonnett on it to protect the baby from
sun.  Its a Centry.  As it turns out my parents are going to buy us the bigger
Evenflow as a gift.

Maureen

    re: .67
    
    I meant to answer this a lot sooner -- 
    
    Thanks, Sandy, the reason I wanted to know is that we were trying
    to decide whether to rent a van with the seats or take David's
    seat with us.  We wound up using the van's seat and it was very
    nice -- no need to hassle with taking the seat in and out when we
    had an adult there instead of David, and he seemed more
    comfortable and could see out better and reach more things on the
    seat beside him, so didn't need as much help while we were
    driving.  (For instance, he could have his water bottle on the
    seat beside him.)
    
    I didn't notice any metal things sticking up anywhere near the
    head, so I guess they took the feedback to heart and fixed the
    design. 
    
    --bonnie

    I was wondering when I could switch the car seat from rear facing to
    forward facing?  My daughter is 6 1/2 months old and weighs 19lbs and
    11 ozs.  She probably is over 20 lbs by now.  She can sit up pretty
    well now and has good head control.
    
    We will be going on vacation next week and I wanted to use the other
    seat that will be used for forward facing.  We have been using the
    infeat car seat we received from the hospital and she is really too big
    for it now.  
    
    Thanks in advance,
    
    Joyce

    Joyce,
    
    Sorry, I don't mean to be confrontational, but this subject (front/rear
    facing) and child size for seat have been flogged to death in earlier
    replies in this note.  The recommendations won't have changed ...
    please read them ... otherwise the file and the host file system
    just get filled up with the same answers over and over and over again.
    
    Hope you understand ...
    
    Stuart

    I think that Stuart was trying to say that this particular topic
    (whether the car seat should face forward or not) has been covered in
    previous *versions* of parenting. (You might want to check those
    replies out) and that there is really no need to bring it up again
    *unless* after reading those replies you still have questions. (which
    you very well might)

    As Stuart implied, this is one of those topics that people seem to get
    very passionate about and the replies often reflect this.

    One thing you stated though, that bothers me. If your daughter is
    "really too big" for her infant seat, then it is *definitely* time to
    move her up to a new car seat. If she is not ready for the toddler seat
    that you have, then you either *have* to buy or borrow a safety seat
    that fits her well until she can fit into the toddler seat.

    It would only take one accident for you to never forgive yourself for
    not seeing to this.

    			Wendy

    Thanks Wendy.  I have already put my daughter in a bigger and safer car
    seat.  I think I will ask my pediatrician about the switching from rear
    to front.  
    
    joyce

re: .83

See the conference announcement or note 9.21 for access information for 
Parenting, Volume 3.  

For the front/back discussion, see note 395 of volume 3.

Clay

    Joyce,
    
    I started my daughter facing the front at almost 6 months...From what
    my pedi told me as long as she could hold her head on her own (steady
    and strong) she was all set...
    
    And much happier too because there was more too look at.......
    
    
    
    

Let me extend my apologies for sounding rather unpleasant in my response.  Most
people here will confirm that I don't normally respond like that ... All
I can say is that it had been a rough day ... and I should have kept my
fingers off the keyboard!

As Wendy indicated, your question has been discussed many times in the various
volumes of PARENTING (and I should have provided you with a pointer to one).
Basically though, you should turn your child to front facing when he/she can
adequately control his/her head ... generally after only a few months.  As to
outgrowing the seat, look at earlier responses in this note.

Stuart

    Sorry if I don't know where, if at all, this question has been
    discussed in PARENTING -- I have looked, but without success. 
    
    What are the guidelines for when a child is big enough to sit in a car
    without at booster seat. I recall reading an article (wish I'd saved
    it) which, if I recall correctly, said that 4 years, 40 pounds and 
    40" tall were minimums.
    
    Any comments from experienced parents?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Ed

    
    
    	I am going by those rules myself.  My son is 3.5, 35lbs, but
    already over 40".  The booster seat I have goes by the 4-4-4 rule, so I
    am too.  I would say as long as the child is comfortable and fits
    correctly in the seat, use it as long a possible.  I don't feel the
    shoulder straps in cars fit childern properly therfor the safety seat
    is always the best thing to use. IMHO
    
    vlm

    My reason for asking  is not to hasten getting my son out of his
    booster seat, it's more to know at what point normal seating begins
    to be an acceptable alternative, ie, I don't HAVE to move his seat from
    my wife's car to mine to take him with me.
    
    Maybe we'll wait until his little sister is old enough to use to his
    booster seat before we start seating him normally...
    
    Thanks,
    
    Ed

    For us, AJ was just 4 weighed just over 40 pounds, and was a little
    over 40" tall.  He had one of those "birth to 40pounds" 5 point
    carseats with a padded thing that pulled over his head.  It was just
    getting too tough getting it over his head without hitting him.
    
    My first reaction was how small he looked in the adult seat without any
    car seat, seconded by a sense of panic feeling as if he were not as
    well protected in just a seatbelt.  He now knows to pull his seatbelt
    as tight as possible, it's just simply a habit to buckle up first
    thing.
    
    My only downside to the transition is that he frequently will still
    fall asleep while in the car.  He no longer has the sides of the
    carseat to lean against when he sleeps.  Frequently he will end up
    laying across the back seat sleeping.  A practice that frankly scares
    the living daylights out of me.  I recently found something called
    "snoozies" (I think this is a repeat of another reply) which is a
    blowup thing inside a felt animal shape all about the size of a one
    litre bottle, you're supposed to put this thing in the "crook" of your
    neck while sleeping in the car.  I may just put a small pillow from the 
    sofa in the couch for the same purpose.
    
    Lyn

    As stated many times before, what matters is the weight limit for the 
    seat and the height of the child relative to the back of the seat.
    Generally speaking, it appears that most children outgrow their
    car seats (infant, regular and booster) more by height than weight.
    40 lbs is a standard limit for carseats, 60 lbs is common for boosters
    but the 40" height depends greatly on the car seat.  Some car seats
    would NEVER take a 40" tall child safely ... others do it very
    comfortably.  So ...
    
    For the infant and regular car seats, the child is too tall for the
    seat when the back of the cranium is above the seat height ... ie the
    bulge at the back of the head.  With the head back, the cranium should
    still touch the seat before the neck. (If your child has no bulge
    at the back it's a little more difficult to judge.)
    
    For a booster seat, the same thing applies, but the height limit now is
    determined by the height of the car's seatback.  Again the back of
    cranium should still be below the top of the seatback.  Our Dodge
    Caravan's bench seats were grown out of VERY quickly.
    
    Stuart

    Stuart,
    
    Just curious - what did you do when your kids outgrew the bench
    seats in your car or van?
    
    Another comment on when to move the child out of the carseat: my
    understanding is that in a rear-impact accident, the head of the
    child may not only be forced back against the back of the carseat, 
    but also upward at the same time (i.e. lifted slightly out of their 
    seat, upward and backward) depending on how much slack there is in 
    the shoulder belts/harness. (Naturally this is the same thing that 
    happens to an adult's head against a headrest, which is why headrests 
    should be up as high as possible.) 
    
    For this reason I moved my son out of his carseat before his head
    reached the point Stuart described, maybe when it was an inch or
    so below that point. I realize these decisions are always judgement
    calls.
    
    Lucy

    MY son is in a Century infant/toddler seat (I think it's the 2000).
    I've adjusted the straps to the top-most position over his shoulders
    for proper fit, but the straps are very snug.  They will never fit over
    his winter jacket.  Does anyone know of a replacement kit with longer
    straps?  Or is there a kit to lengthen the existing straps? 
    Sarah

    re .93
    
    When they were in the booster and grew too tall, they were then
    strapped in using standard seat belts.  Not entirely satisfactory,
    but the risk of injury from whiplash is still very high in low speed
    bumps and probably to occur more likely than "bigger" accidents.
    Now the older two (11 & 8) are taller than the seat and they are
    just like us and have to take our chances!
    
    re .94
    
    It sounds like your child has just about outgrown that child seat
    if the straps no longer fit ... we found that when they came close to
    outgrowing the seat, it seemed like it was only a matter of weeks
    before they had!
    
    Stuart

    My daughter grew out of her car seat before the age/weight limit was
    up.  She is tall, so when whe was in the car seat she would have to
    scrunch down.  Then she would complain about her back hurting her.  I 
    asked her pediatrician about this and since she was pretty tall, he
    suggested going ahead and putting her into a car booster seat. Once she
    was in this booster seat she quit complaining about her back hurting
    her.  She was fine for about 9 months in the booster seat and then
    started complaining about her back hurting her again.  I again asked
    the pediatrician and he told me that it was probably hurting because of
    her height and that she was probably not able to sit back against the 
    car's seat properly.  The pediatrician again suggested taking her out
    of the car seat and using the regular seat belt.  She has been using
    the car seat belt since she was approx 4.5 years old.  She is now 5
    years 4 months old and hasn't complained about a backache since she has
    been using the regular seat belt.  I didn't feel as secure with her in
    the regular seat belt, but when it came to her comfort, I had to do it.
    I had asked the doctor about the laws and that the child is supposed to
    be in a car/booster seat until a certain age/weight, but he told me
    that since she is taller than most children her age, that it shouldn't
    be a problem, and it hasn't......
    

    I checked and it's the Centruy 1000, not the 20000, but no matter.  My
    son is very tall for his age, but he is only 2.5, so I thought moving
    him to a booster seat was a bit premature.  Perhaps I"ll take him
    around to "test-drive" some new seats.  I only have shoulder straps in
    my car so I need to find a brand that uses them effectively.  I haven't
    been able to find a booster seat that makes good use of the shoulder
    strap.  Can anyone recommend a full-size toddler seat or a good booster
    seat that uses the shoulder belt?  By the way, my son is only 25
    pounds, so the weight limits are still quite a ways off (very tall,
    very thin).
    Sarah

    Sarah,
    
    The Kangaroo seat (discussed in this file, not sure where) might meet
    your needs. I saw one recently. It comes up quite high behind the
    child's head and gives side support to their head if  they fall asleep
    in the car. It is designed to be used with shoulder belts and can also
    be used with plain lap belts. It is just a carefully shaped piece of
    high-density foam covered with velour cloth that sits on the seat of
    the car.
    
    The gotcha is that it is  expensive, like $75.00 or so.
    
    Lucy

    One more thing about the Kangaroo - it is supposedly meant to be used
    til kids get to be pretty big (I believe the age guideline, which I
    know is not that useful) was seven years old. If you really could get
    four years' use out of it (and maybe more if there are other kids to
    follow) it might be worth the investment. That's my line of thinking at
    the moment, as I consider buying one...
    
    Lucy

    Thanks, Lucy.  My seats are bucket seats with shoulder belts, so my
    choice in car seats is a little limited.  For instance, the full-size
    Fisher-Price (the blue one, don't know the model) does not fit in the
    seats because the base of the car seat is too wide for my bucket seat.
    It wobbles around and can't be secured to my satisfaction. I'll check
    around for the Kangaroo.  At this point the price doesn't matter too
    much.  I'll gladly spend more for a comfortable, safe seat. Shopping
    for a seat is a real trip...first I have to sit my son in it, then I
    have to try it out in the car.  That's the tricky part, but so far the
    management has been pretty reasonable about letting me take a display
    model out and fit it into the car. My argument is usually "Well,
    then I may end up returning 6 out of 7 models after purchase because
    they don't fit well in the car".  Is the Kangaroo a popular brand?
    Sarah

When I was using a seat belt with our child's seat, I was able to purchase
from Mothercare an attachment to the shoulder seat belt.  It basically was a
clasp which turned the retractable combination lap/shoulder belt into a
fised length lap belt.  This "belt" then held the seat which was designed to
be used with a lap belt firmly in place.

We used a eat that sounds much like the Kangaroo seat mentioned previously.  At
the time, it was the only seat approved for its safety features buy the
German car safety agencies.  Much progress has been made since then I guess :-)
but Mothercare might still make this clasp.

Cheryl

I bought a Kangaroo seat after learning about it here and later seeing it
in use for a 4-year-old nephew.  It's great.  My daughter is 5 yrs and 35 
lbs and it is designed for use starting with kids bigger than that, but it
works well for her and seems like the safest option, as well as being
the most comfortable for her and most convenient for me.

You can order them mail order from some place in MA. (see ads in back of
Parents and other magazines) or find them at specialty children's stores.
I found ours for $70 at Tiny Totland in Manchester NH, but none of the 
chain stores had them.

If it's in reasonable condition, I think you'd have no problem getting most
of your money back selling it used when you're done with it.

    The only "problem" with the kangaroo seat is that it MUST be used with
    the shoulder-harness type seat belt.  Those of us with older cars
    [read: regular lap belts only in the back seat] can't use this seat in
    the back.  Too bad, because I could sure use one or two of them!

    re .103
    
    Why must the Kangaroo be used with a shoulder belt? I have seen
    one of them, and don't see why you couldn't use a plain lap
    belt if that's all you have. What am I missing?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Lucy

> Why must the Kangaroo be used with a shoulder belt? I have seen
> one of them, and don't see why you couldn't use a plain lap
> belt if that's all you have. What am I missing?
    
A lap belt alone isn't safe for a little kid - or maybe for anyone!  I
know adults who won't wear a lap belt if there isn't a shoulder belt too.

Lap belts put all the force in a part of the body that can't take it and
can cause serious abdominal injuries.  The shoulder belt distributes the
force over the chest - similar to what child carseats do, but not as well. 

I had shoulder belts put in my 87 Camry backseats for $250.  I think it 
could have been done for much less if it was an 88 - then they made the
cars to have the belts attached later if you want.

    A lap belt alone is still safer than no belt at all...
    
    --bonnie

    Thanks Bonnie, my sentiments entirely.
    
    If you are faced with only a lap belt, ensure that it is worn as
    physically low as possible on the hips and no twists.
    
    Stuart

    We're in the process of deciding what Sarah's next car seat will be. 
    While we still have about 2 more months before she outgrows the specs
    on her Century 590 infant seat, we're trying to gather info now.
    
    Sarah is 4 months old and is long and lean (at her 4 mo checkup she was
    14lb 8oz and 26in long).  While she likes to ride in the car, she HATES
    being confined in her seat.  She really likes to stretch and has a
    habit of pushing the plastic buckle down out of the way to get more
    stretching room.  I'm sure we'll have a real Houdini on our hands once
    she's older, stronger and more coordinated.
    
    What kind of car seat would be best for her?  Would she be less fussy
    with a shield type, be less apt to escape with a bar type, what about
    the 5-point harnesses?  Safety is my first concern, of course, but I
    want to make sure she's as comfortable as she's going to get since we
    do tend to go lots of places.
    
    Thanks,
    Susan

    Many earlier notes address this, including my questions.  See my note
    30.47 for the way we resolved things.  My daughter hates the shield
    seat less than the bar-type.  (I won't say she LIKES any seat much,
    including her high chair, at least not for more than 5 minutes.)
    
    good luck
    

    re lapbelts:
    Bonnie is right - particularly for kids - that lapbelts are better than
    no belt.  And... I didn't even answer the question: "can you use
    lapbelts with a Kangaroo seat?"  
    
    What I really meant to say was: the point of the Kangaroo seat is that
    it makes shoulder belts appropriate for kids by raising the child.
    Instead of passing across the neck, the belt crosses the chest.
    The seat doesn't provide any protection itself, like carseats do, it
    just lets the seatbelt provide it by repositioning the rider.
    
    You could use a Kangaroo seat with a lapbelt, but it would be no more
    or less effective than a lapbelt alone. (only more comfortable and with
    a better view)  
    
    For a car with lapbelts only, a booster type seat would be better 
    than a Kangaroo.
                  

    I've never seen the Kangaroo car seat in a store, but, have seen a 
    picture in one of my catalogs.  It looks like it doesn't only boost 	
    in height, but also has a back.  Is that correct?  If so, I think 
    you'd be more safe with a shoulder strap, to hold the child back, 
    and also to hold the back of the kangaroo to the seat.
    

    The Kangaroo is a single piece of high-density foam with a fabric
    cover. (So why is it so expensive? But that's another question).
    Yes, it has a high back.
    
    A shoulder-lap belt combination is always safer than just a lap
    belt if it fits right. However, I doubt that there is any reason
    that the Kangaroo *requires* a shoulder belt. It seems like its
    main safety advantage is that it enables a child to use a shoulder
    belt, whereas without the Kangaroo the shoulder belt would not
    fit the child correctly.
    
    How much does it cost to install shoulder belts in the back?
    
    Lucy

    The cost to install shoulder straps depends on whether the car was made
    for them or not.  My 87 Camry was not, so a body shop had to do some
    work and it cost $250 for two.  I think it's much less (anyone know how
    much?) if your car was made with them in mind.  88 Camrys and newer
    were. 

    Nicholas, who turned 3 today, is 41" tall and 46 lbs and has outgrown 
    his toddler car seat (Century 5000, FWIW). As one of his birthday
    presents, we gave him a Gerry booster seat. We used it for the first
    time this morning, and (so far) he likes it. I see a potential
    drawback, though, and am looking for some advice....In his toddler
    seat, Nick could rest his head against either side of the carseat when he
    wanted to doze. With the booster seat, however, he loses that ability.
    Can anyone recommend a method or product that will allow him some
    lateral head support for his catnaps?
    
    Thanks in advance,
    
    Freddie

    
    Freddie,

    They sell just what your looking for, it a cushioned collar that fits
    around the baby's neck. It's for lending support to the head once a 
    child has reached your predicament. Any store that sells the seats
    should have them.

    

I've seen a new design recently that has two rectangular cushions with
fabric between them, specifically made to go with car booster seats
like the kind you have.  I don't know what it's called, but I would
guess you'd find it in the bigger stores.

If you don't, let me know and I'll get more info.

    The Right Start catalog has what -1 described.  It is called Ride & Rest.
    It is designed to use with any booster seat.  It costs $27.95.  I just 
    ordered one the other day.  I should have it next week.  I can let
    you know how well it works out then.
    
    Ginny 

    re: last few...
    
    Thanks for the quick replies. Please keep me posted with updates and
    more information or leads.
    
    Freddie

    re: headrests for booster seats
    I don't know what brand I got but I think it was called Ride & Rest.
    I bought it at Rich's in Rochester, NH for $19.95.  I saw some at the
    Children's Orchard in Londonderry a few months ago for much less (they
    were used but looked like new).  Too bad I didn't pick one up then,
    I could have saved a bundle.
    
    Ruth

    My new born baby (8 days old) loves her car seat.  She can sleep all
    night in it without any complain.  However, if we put her in the crib
    , stroller (reclined type) or cradle, she will wake up easily.  May
    be the car seat is so compact that she feels secure in it.
    
    We are very concern whether the car seat will hurt her back although
    her Doctor said it wouldn't.  Her car seat is the infant type so it
    should be well designed.  However, sleep in it for 6~7 hours may hurt
    too.
    
    What do you think?
    
    -Aston

    
    Have you tried swaddling your baby in a blanket???
    Infants tend to like being "snuggled up" as they were in the womb, 
    this is why you will see them all swaddled up in the hospital after
    birth...makes them feel more secure...  I remember thinking how 
    amazing it was how tightly they wrapped them... 
    
    You might like to try it, and see how she does...  I remember keeping
    Michael swaddled in blankets for the first few weeks of life...
    (its tough getting a good "wrap", but keep trying, it comes....)
    
    Chris
    

    I agree with .1 - Swaddling is the key - Also I used to take
    X-tra blankets and all Samantha's stuffed animals and put
    them all around her so that the bed wouldn't seem so BIG!
    
    Some people say that's why a bassinet should(opinion) be used
    for the first couple of months...I also have heard about an 
    insert type of thing for the crib that fits into the crib to
    make it smaller (I suppose it's along the same line as using
    x-tra blankets etc...)
    
    Has anyone else ever heard of that??????
    
    

    Swaddling worked for us too!  We also had a bassinet and then used
    a Nojo Terrycloth Changing pad.  It was a perfect size when placed
    in the bassinet, had bumperpads all the way around it.  We would
    swaddle Chelsea, then lay her on her side next to the bumperpad and
    put a rolled receiving blanket in front of her.  This lasted about
    2 weeks when she decided that tummy sleeping was for her.
    
    ..Lori

    Yes, I did swaddle her but still she prefers the car seat :-(
    
    May be I should try the crib again this weekend.  Anyway, do any of you
    think sleeping in a car seat for couple of hours everynight will hurt the
    baby's back?  She is doing fine right now but I just worry...
    
    Thanks.
    
    -aston
    

    I just remembered that Samantha used to sleep in her snuggley
    seat a lot during the day -- Probably the same as the car
    seat...
    
    It didn't seem to hurt her back......It's funny - Samantha is
    only 10 months old and I already forget some of the things we
    did with her the first few weeks.....
    
    Everyone told me that if she was happy/sleeping/not complaining
    it was probably all right......
    
    If she's sleeping (and your resting) let her sleep in the seat ---!
    
    

    Aston,
    Your baby's spine is probably still very soft (like cartiledge kind of)
    and I would assume that is why the doctor said it wouldn't harm her to
    be in the carseat.  I think this is something she will grow out of
    shortly, so if it works for her, go with it.  You might feel better
    putting her carseat in the crib, thus getting her familiar with the
    surroundings.
    
    -sandy
    

    Thanks for all the replies.
    
    I'll still use the carseat and try the stroller or crib during
    weekends.
    
    Cheers,
    
    -Aston
    

	I need to buy a new car seat for Emily (~ 5 months) by next
	weekend, as I have to return her infant car seat to my sister.

	Does anyone know the difference between the Century 3000
	and 5000 ?  We went shopping yesterday, but the store didn't
	carry the 5000.  Also, can anyone recommend a good place
	to shop for carseats that has reasonable prices and a wide
	selection ?  Lastly, I'm looking for Consumer Reports type
	information on "best brands", "best features", et al. (Similar
	to Sue's reply a few back).  I've read all the replies here
	and haven't found much help...
	
	Thanks,
	Karen

    
    We bought the Centry 3000 based on the consumer reports. 
    I forget what it was about the 5000.  I believe it was more
    difficult to get the baby out.  I think you're like I was,
    "It's a higher number must mean it's better and It costs
    more so it must be better."
    
    Last January Consumer Reports did an article on car seets.
    Fisher Price 9101 (I think) and Century 3000 came out tops.
    I'll see if I can find it.   We paid $75 for ours at Wal-Mart.
    The 5000 was $110.  Toys-R-Us, Service Merchandise are other good 
    places for prices.
    
    Yesterday at the grocery store I saw a book by Parents. 
    It was: Everything you Need to know about Baby Products.
    
    It covered swings, carriages, car seats, etc.  That may help.
    
    The only thing about the 3000 that I'm not sure about is my 
    baby *HATES* the bar in front.  I'm hoping he'll grow out of
    it.  I think he doesn't like it because he can't bend forward
    at all.  I think he feels crowded.
    
    Hope this helps....Kristen

    RE:  .128
    
    My memory may be faulty, but I think the only difference between the
    Century 3000 and 5000 was the removable pad.  We ended up not using it
    at all.
    
    L

    We bought the 92 Century 1000 model.  We are very happy with it.  It
    has a five point harness and the padding has been extended to cover
    all plastic parts of the seat....the earlier model did not.  It is
    very easy to get Chelsea in and out of.  The padding is very thick
    and cushy....can also be removed for machine washing.  Consumer Reports
    January '92 listed this model as a good buy.  We paid $79.00 for it.
    
    ..Lori

If I remember correctly (doubtful) the difference between the 3000 and the 5000
is the 5000's bar is adjustable, in and out, to compensate for the growing
child. It's about $20 more. We went for the 3000 and have been happy with it.

Chris

	Thanks everyone, that's exactly the type of info I was looking for!

	Karen

    The Fisher Price does not have the bar, does have a removable pad, and
    sells for $69 at Toys-R-Us.
    
    We have been very pleased with it.
    
    Leslie

	I went to Toys R Us last night and checked out the carseats.

	I ruled out the "bar" type, as Emily is quite active, and 
	I'm hedging my bets she'll prefer the seat without the bar.

	That said, here are my comments on the seats without the bar:

	Century 1000STE - 50.00, removable pad, 5-point harness system,
			  adjustable straps (adjust in the front, quite
		 	  easily).  Rather than one buckle to connect, there
			  are two small buckles that connect into one latch.
			  3 reclining positions, slightly flimsy plastic
			  clips to hold pad in place on the armrests

			  I actually bought this model, but after getting
			  it home and actually trying to put the baby in
			  and out, have decided to return it.  It's not
			  worth the hassle.

	Century 2000 - 60.00, removable pad, 3-point harness (T shape
			between legs), 2 crotch positions, easily adjustable
			straps. 3 positions
			
			I didn't like the latch release on this model.  The
			mechanism was nearly broken, and I figure if it
			can't stand up to being tested out on display, it
		        won't hold up for successive kids.

	Fisher Price - 70.00, removable pad, 3-point harness (T), very
			easily adjustable straps (work like a regular seatbelt,
			and lock in place when buckle is latched).  Pad
			is attached with elastic.  3 reclining positions
	
			The only drawback with this seat, as was pointed out
		 	to me by a noter, was that there isn't really anywhere
			to rest the head if baby doses.  I figure we can 
			work around this when the time comes.  I'm going
			to get the Fisher Price.

	Hope this helps the next person that needs to decide on a seat!

	Karen

    I started out with the Century 590 Infant Seat.  Chelsea still has some
    time in it, she's about 14 lbs right now.  I had become quite
    comfortable with the ease of getting her in and out of this model.  We
    got for a gift the Century 1000 '91 Model....which I traded in for the
    '92 model, because the padding covered all plastic on the seat.
    
    At first, I was a little itimidated by the five point
    harness...thinking this is gonna be such a hassel.  I also wasn't using
    it correctly...I would try and put the top part of the harness over
    her head without taking the harness out of one side of the clip.  This
    made it quite difficult to get her arms thru....guess it takes a few
    times for this first time parent to figure out these things!
    
    Now that I know to slide the right side of the harness out of the clip,
    her arms fit quite easily thru...slide the clip up to her shoulders
    and the two leg buckles latch easy into the main buckle.
    
    So add it all up....I have no problem getting Chelsea in and out of
    her Century 1000 and at this time love it.  Its so cushy...very well
    padded....and when she dozes it provides good head support...she looks
    snug as a bug!!

	Lori, I figured that out too (about the clip), but when I
	showed my husband he said, "that's the one thing I always
	hated about the infant car seat (590), the stupid clip!"

	Oh well... I'm very happy with our new Fisher Price.
 Karen

    One more thing about the bar .... with the 2 carseats that we got (I
    forget the name brand), the front bar was optional, and they suggested
    *NOT* using it because in some accidents it can cause more harm to the
    child.  When the bar is used, there is now a hard object in front of
    the child that they will be thrown into when moving in a forward
    direction.  Using just the seatbelts, and no bar has worked out great
    for us!
    
    The Fisher Price one has the retractable seatbelts, right??  Make sure
    that that little button that stops them from fully retracting, is
    secure, and re-check it periodically.  That was a recall on those
    seats because the kids were getting them undone, and part way up and
    getting their necks stuck, and the only way to get UNstuck is to
    retract it further (ie into the child) ... yech!
    
    Patty

    After reading all of the replies in this topic, I think I know what my
    options are, but let me see if there is any new thinking.
    
    Our daughter Chelsea is almost 3, and seems to have outgrown her
    Century 5000 car seat.  The bar in front presses into her stomach and
    she constantly complains of it hitting her.  I cannot see any way of
    adjusting the bar to give her more room.
    
    Today we bought a Gerry booster seat, and installed it into our Dodge
    Caravan in the middle seat.  When we put her into the seat, her head
    was way above the top of the car seat.  The manufacturer of the seat
    says that you cannot use the seat of the back of the car seat is lower
    than the mid-point of her head.
    
    It appears that because of the low height of the back/middle seats in a
    Caravan, we cannot use a booster, yet the current seat appears to
    really hurt her.
    
    Do we put up with the screaming and complaining, or buy her a new
    toddler seat, or is there a booster that will work with the Caravan's
    seats.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Mark
    

Does the back of the Caravan have shoulder straps?  I have seen a contraption
(in the Right Start Catalog, I think) that fits over lap and shoulder belts 
to make the shoulder restraint fit across a child's body correctly (ie accross
the chest instead of the neck)

- Carol

    One issue is protection for the head and neck, and another is a 
    well-fitting restraint system. It sounds like the gadget Carol
    described is worth a try, because it might solve both problems by
    putting your child lower into the seat, and also helping the belts
    fit. 
    
    One minus might be that she is more prone to car-sickness if lower
    down on a back seat. My son has this problem. We now put him in the
    front seat in a Kangaroo booster, with lap and shoulder belts and
    headrest behind/above the Kangaroo.
    
    It seems like there's always a compromise to be made...
    
    Lucy

       Apologies if this is in the wrong place or if it has
       has been answered before (I couldn't find it).
    
       Where can I obtain a seat belt "locking bar"?  It looks
       something like the diagram below and lap/diagonal belts 
       thread through it when used with some car seats.
    
                    --------          --------
                    |      |          |      |
                    --------          --------
                    ||                      ||
                    --------------------------
                    |                        |
                    --------------------------
                    ||                      ||
                    --------          --------
                    |      |          |      |
                    --------          --------
      We were given a booster seat, but not the bar. We've tried 
      the usual outlets and couldn't find one. Maybe we
      missed it. Suggestions? Tewksbury, Maynard area please.

      Thanks, Howie       Mail to PARITY::DOW    DTN 247-2797

    Try calling the manufacturer of the booster seat.  They usually have a
    1-800 number you can get from 1-800 information.  I've had very good
    experiences with Century, when the frame for the bonnet on our infant
    seat broke I called them and then sent me a new one free of charge.
    
    

    I found one, made by Century, at the local everything-for-babies
    store. They call it a locking clip, I believe; it matches your 
    description.
    
    Lucy

    
    I have an extra - We don't use it in our cars.
    
    Send your mailng address. it'll take a week or so to get it, given the
    distance.
    
    Jamd

	FYI --	Good Article found in Globe dated March 6, 1993

	"Safe in mother's arms? Not in a car"
	  By Denise McCluggage

	The Babes in arms, a subject of paintings and sculpture since
	art begin, illustrates the essence of shelter and security. But
	not in the modern world. At least not if the protective arms are
	holding the baby while riding in a car.

	Statistics show that automobile crashes are the leasing cause
	of injury and death among small children. However nearly three-
	quarters of those injuries and deaths can be prevented with proper
	precautions. And that means that every child is secured in a child's
	car seat - not in somebody's sheltering arms - even if the parent
	is wearing a seat belt.

	Of course, every parent knows that car seats are necessary. States 
	require their use (though laws differ). But, sometimes, under the
	pressure of time - and  "We're just going around the corner" - 
	exceptions are made. Alas, those relentless statistics also show
	most injuries happen within a short distance of home.

	The answer is never hold your child in your arms while moving and 
	never neglect proper attention to the car seat, to it's comfort,
	its fits and its correct installation. (Belts and straps improperly
	fastened can make a child uncomfortable or even cause injury).

	To keep a child's seat as distant as possible from any collision,
	carry it in the back seat, inboard, away from side impacts. Clearly
	the vehicle of choice for parents of young children is one with 
	four doors or a sliding side door such as those in many minivans.
	And note: Chrylser minivans and some cars can be purchased with
	built-in child seats.

	In any vehicle, take some unhurried time to master installation
	of the seat. Study the directions and practice putting the car
	seat in place without the child in it. And then, free of pressure,
	stage several run-throughs with the child in the seat. Everyone
	who drives or rides in the car should also go through these practice
	sessions. The knowledge may come in handy.

	The rear-seat placement, particularly if the child's seat is in 
	the center, can make it harder for the driver to check child -
	and frequent checks should be made in case straps were incorrectly
	adjusted and the child wiggles or slips. When you are the driver, 
	alone with your child, you must consciously avoid a dangerous split
	in attention. Helpful are the small mirrors sold by auto supply
	stores and departments. They attach to the rearview mirror and 
	adjust separately to provide a wide angle view of the back seat.

	And to avoid the constant blind groping for toys tossed on to the
	floor, attach the items to the car seat with a shoestring - not
	too long to become a danger to your child. Limit the toy choice to
	cuddly items that won't hurt when hurled at the back of your head.

	For infants, starting with their first ride home from the hospital,
	their car seat should be positioned so that they ride lying down
	and facing the rear of the car. This assures the least damaging
	distribution of forces in case of crash or sudden stops. Toddlers
	can ride sitting upright and facing forward.

	Here are some points about child car seats:

	o Make sure your child's car seat complies with the current 
	  standards, particularly if it is a hand-me-down. 
	  Call the Auto Safety Hotline - (800) 424-9393 - an automated
	  service through which you can request car seat safety and 
	  regulations                            
	
	o If someone is not sitting in the back with the child, make a
	  point of checking temperature differentials. The heater and
	  the air conditioning may not be uniform throughout vehicle.

	o Be aware of changes in the sun angle as time passes and you 
	  make turns. Pull down blinds that attach with suction cups to 
	  the windows are available at auto supply shops.

	o Plan to leave on trips long enough after the baby has been fed
	  (30-60 minutes) to avoid ill effects of jostling.

	o Softly playing a cassette associated with nap time and the 
	  rock-a-bye effect of the car movement might prove helpful,
	  and you'll find yourself transporting a peacefully sleeping
	  child.

	o If your child is fussy and squirmy for an uncharacteristically
	  long time, stop where you can both take an out-of-car break.
	  Even if several people are in the car, don't let the baby be
	  taken out of the car seat while you are under way (start over
	  with "babe-in-arms" above).


	Note: Denise McCluggage has made a career of racing and writing
	      about autos - and is an award-winner in both categories.
                                                 

	Emily (10 months) has become quite the squirmer in her car seat lately.
        She'll push on the straps as though she's trying to escape,
	complete with grunts to accompany her efforts.  The straps are not
	too tight.  The squirming first started when she began to cruise,
	and has worsened as she started to walk.  She'll squirm if held for
	too long, so I know it's just her desire to be free.  Anyway,
	Friday I checked my mirror to find her with one arm completely
	freed from the strap.  I stopped the car and adjusted the straps,
	and she slept the rest of the time, so I had no more problems.  
	I'm extra careful to be sure the straps are retracted enough to
	hold her safely when putting her in the seat, but twice more this
	weekend, I found her with one arm out of the straps.

	I have a Fisher-Price car seat, which has two retractable straps and
	a T-shaped shield by the legs.

	Does anyone have any solutions to the problem ?

	Is it safe for her to ride this way (could she actually get out
	of the seat while I'm driving ???)  I assume this would significantly
	lessen the protection she'd get if we had an accident ?

	Any insight would be appreciated...

	Karen

    Karen,
    our Charlotte (also 10 mon) is doing a lot of squirming too. Although
    she isn't walking yet, she's free standing and cruising. In the car
    she will either slide into a slouch and then complain or try to lean
    forward and grunt (getting red with a funny expression on her face).
    
    We have an evenflo, and I don't think she could get the straps off
    since they are very close together and a little buckle keeps them there
    along with the solid t piece that buckles in between her legs.
    
    A member of the family who is a teacher and a mother of three small
    kids once told me to make sure the straps don't come off the shoulders
    since the child could fly out in a collision...
    
    Monica

>>  A member of the family who is a teacher and a mother of three small
>>  kids once told me to make sure the straps don't come off the shoulders
>>  since the child could fly out in a collision...

	Did she tell you *how* to make sure ??

    Karen,
    
    We have the same seat you do. My son went through a stage where he
    would try to free himself, and if the straps are loose enough, he
    could get both arms free. Obviously this defeats the purpose of
    the seat... I would stop the car, get him back in the straps, and
    make sure the straps were retracted as much as possible, the tighter
    the better, even though he hated it. (The design of the seat seems
    to prevent the straps being *too* tight.) I would then try to distract
    him by singing ridiculous songs or handing him a toy/cracker/whatever. 
    Eventually he gave up trying. 
    
    Lucy
    

Elise sits in the same Fisher Price seat and she *has* gotten the straps off her
shoulders.  But luckily, she tells me she has done it (very proud of herself),
and I stop the car to fix it and tell her she must leave them.  She has learned
not to do it.  May not work for all kids, as Elise is a pretty cooperative kid.

Pat

    
    	Well, Emily's still taking the straps off... but she only tells
    	me by the grunts I here as she tries to figure out how to do it!
    
    	Would it lessen the effectiveness of the seat if I took one
    	of the clasps used on Century seats to hold the straps together ?
    
    	That way, she couldn't get her arms out (I think she figures out
    	how to get her arms in between the straps and pushes them out the
    	side).
    
    	KAren
    

    I will be honest.
    When I first read about the idea of a 10 month old slipping out
    of the straps I was skeptical that the car seat was properly strapped.
    
    HOWEVER.
    
    I realized two things yesterday:
    
    1/ Charlotte (also that age) is a large 10 month old. Hence she fits
    better into her car seat and the restraint system probably works better
    than for an equally squirmy body that might be a little smaller.
    
    2/ Yesterday our winter did an about face, and while I brought baby
    to sitter in the morning with the regular big snowsuit on (which makes
    her look like the "Michelin Man"), by the time I picked her up at 
    noon, I had to change her into a light sweater.
    All of a sudden, my big white bundle was an active little squirmy baby
    again - able to curl up, move side to side (tearing off the velcro on
    her sneakers) and generally be less immobile and secure than that 
    morning.
    
    Now, I understand the problem!!
    
	Monica (seeing the light!!)
    

    I was cleaning the car today (first good day in a while) and noticed a
    piece of the car seat base chipped off. This is a Century infant
    seat/baby carrier which we've had for almost 4 years. It was used for
    our son and now for our daughter (weighs 18 lbs so we were going to
    have to get something for her anyway).
    
    A little more investigation into where the chip came from showed cracks
    on both supports. Slight pressure from my finger caused half of the
    plastic support to fall off. Somewhat scary. This particular model is
    almost all plastic and I can see where stress over time could weaken
    the pastic. I threw away the base, but we'll still use the carrier.
    
    I went to the Nashua Lechmere looking for the Kangaroo (I had seen one
    in Manchester a few weeks back). They had it as an unannounced special
    for $49.99 (normally $79.99).
    
    We'll give our son's Cosco (5 point system) to our daughter and our son
    will get the Kangaroo.
    
    The Kangaroo fact sheet was quite interesting. It advertises 50-80 lbs,
    but that's due to U.S. government requirements. In Canada, they
    advertise 40 lbs.
    
    Michael Moy
    DEC Rdb Engineering

        We've been very happy with the Kangaroo -- and I sure wish I had
        got the deal you got!
    
        The seat pretty well does what it advertises itself to do and I
        figure I'll keep my son in it for another two years. 
    
        Lucy               

    
    
    Just wondering when mom's and dad's switched over from the car
    seat to a booster seat?  My son is 14 mos. and I'm due for my
    2nd baby in June.  I will be back to work from maternity leave
    in September and need another seat for my newest addition.
    My son is very tall and big for his age (right now at 14 mos.,
    he's 32 inches tall and 25 lbs).  I went to Lechemere yesterday
    to check out the size requirements for booster seats.  One model
    said from 30lbs and over.  Another said from 30 inches and taller
    and didn't say anything about the weight.  My son will be 18 1/2
    mos. old by the time I'll need a new seat.  Is this too young
    to be in a booster seat?  I'm assuming that it goes by the weight
    (because of an impact) of a child rather than the age.  
    
    He has his 15 mos. check-up in the beginning of June so I'll
    ask my pediatrician what he suggests.  Just wondering what others
    have done with their children and car seats/booster seats.
    
    Thanks.

    I just took my almost 4 year old son out of his carseat last weekend. I
    felt why move him if he doesn't give me a problem about being in it. I
    feel its some what safer, than a booster seat.
    My second son will be two next month and I have no plans on moving him
    from his carseat for at least another year.
    
    I would see if you can pick up a second hand one someplace. If you
    might be interested I will sell you one of mine. (I have four).
    
    Lynne
    DTN:381-2242

    I moved my son to a booster seat at about age 3. 18 months feels a
    little young.
    

    I seem to recall a metric called '40-40', which meant not to move
    to a booster seat until the child was 40lbs or 40" tall. Does this ring
    a bell with anyone else?
    
    In any event, I, too, think 18 mos sounds too young. Nick's a big kid
    (always 95th (or higher) percentile in both height and weight), and we
    didn't move him until approx his 3rd birthday.
    
    However, since each child (and each situation) is different, the best
    advice you'll get will be from your pediatrician, who knows all the
    pertinent facts regarding your child and your situation. 
    
    Good luck...

    I moved my son to a booster seat when he passed 40 lbs. 
    
    One note: when deciding where in the car to place the booster seat and 
    the car seat (for our 18-month old), I reasoned that it was safer to have 
    the booster seat in the center of the car, and the car seat next to a door. 
    My thinking was that in a side-impact collision, my son, from the
    center of the car, could not sustain head injury from banging his head 
    against the car windows or pillars.  (Car seats have padded sides at
    head height, so this would protect the 18-month old in a similar
    accident.) 
    
    I'd be interested in hearing feedback on the hows and whys of other
    people's booster seat/car seat placements. 
    
    Joe
    
    
    
     

    Joe,
    
    I suggest you read through as many of the replies in this topic
    as you can, because a lot of issues have been covered already,
    so maybe you can find some info quickly rather than waiting for
    noters to respond.
    
    Specifically, I know .7 addresses where to position the carseat
    in the car.
    
    Also, I know there is a lot of info in this topic about how to
    determine when to move your child out of the car seat (it has more
    to do with head position than weight, I think).
    
    Lucy

    Thanks .-1  you are sooo right ... it has been dealt with in here
    and previous versions of parenting ...
    
    Weight (40 lbs) is usually the weight at which you must move your
    child from the car seat to a booster ... but the height of the back
    of teh head in relation to the car seat back is usually the limiting
    factor.  If the bulge at the back of the child's head is within about
    1" of the top of the car seat back then it is time to move them on.
    
    Like others in here, 18 months is probably too young ... unless you
    have a monster of an 18 month old ! (No offense intended here :-)
    
    Most children are late 2 to mid 4 when they are moved on.  Much
    depends on how the child is fitting the car seat.
    
    The best thing to do though is read the other notes in here on
    car seats etc.
    
    Stuart (whose name you'll see a LOT in those notes ... hmmmmmmm!)
    

    I've decided to add this here, as opposed to starting another topic all
    together.  Mods, feel free if you feel this isn't appropriate here...
    
    
    The following is only part of an article, I am putting in only part of
    the article that was printed on the front page of yesterday's Worcester
    Telegram & Gazette newspaper.  This tore at my heartstrings terribly,
    when I first heard of the incident, and tore at it again when I read
    the article titled:  HE WOULD HAVE LIVED IF ONLY HE HAD A SEATBELT ON"
    
    A 5 year old boy was killed earlier this week, on I 395 in Oxford.  The
    car he was riding in was hit by a truck in a 6 car pile up.  The boy
    was ejected through the windshield upon impact.  The others in the car
    received only minor injuries, they were treated and released.  The boy
    was riding on the lap of another teenager, while also in the back seat
    was the boy's 17 month old sibling, secured in a child carseat, as well
    as a three year old sibling, also secured in a seatbelt.  they were
    only slightly hurt, the infant sustained extremely minor injuries.  The
    adults in the front were belted, and received minor injuries.  Other
    cars involved had occupants with only slight injuries.
    
    The Massachusetts State Police Trooper who made these statements, is
    also investigating the accident.  The driver of the truck has been
    charged with following too closely, but not motor vehicle homicide,
    perrhaps manslaughter charges may be filed later.  The adults in the
    car were of and old adage that lap passengers faire better in
    accidents.  WRONG!!  unbelted and especially those riding in laps
    become projectiles, and just keep on going upon impact.
    
    Please, this whole incident broke my heart, I see it on the highways
    everyday, I see too much of it close up as I am the EMT who has to pick
    up the broken little bodies and put them in an ambulance.  It is a real
    hard thing for me to deal with as a mother.  It is also illegal in MA
    as well as most other states for children to be unrestrained.
    
    I want to offer a possible solution.  There is a HOTLINE to report
    site-ings  of cars with unrestrained children.  Although I;m not sure
    if it's nationwide or just in MA:  1-800-443-7233.  You need to give
    the license plate number, and location where you saw it.  Literature
    ONLY will be sent to the registered owner of the vehicle.  NO CITATIONS
    are issued, and it is completely anonymous.  
    
    On a positive note, in our area this week the State police were doing a
    sort of roadblock at the entrance to a supermarket's plaza.  Children
    were given stickers and a citation for having their seatbelts in place. 
    On the downside, parents were give $25. citations (tickets) per child
    if a child was observed not wearing a seatbelt.
    
    I guess as a mother, and and EMT I would ask for your help in making my
    job a little easier, this weekend and in the future.  This is the part
    of my job I truly HATE!  It's so simple, just BUCKLE UP!
    
    Sorry, now I'll climb down off my soapbox, and have a save, happy
    fourth!
    
    Lyn

   Lyn,

   It is truly horrifying to read - I remember hearing just the skimpy
   facts on the radio on my way into work yesterday and when they said
   the child had been killed, wondered to myself "was he wearing his
   seatbelt ?".

   From my side, I got into a major conflict with family members when I
   found out the cousin I had taking care of my child a few years ago -
   she asked if she could take him with her then boyfriend while she took
   the BF to a nightclass and waited for it to get out - I said fine but
   to remember *she* was responsible for him and that he *had* to wear
   a seatbelt.....the next day, my son told me that she had him riding in 
   the backseat (too "crowded" in the front for the 3 of them), WITH NO 
   SEATBELT, even tho' there was a belt he could have used in the front -
   topped it off when I found out that for part of the ride my son was
   on her lap in the back AND found out that she was letting a **learning
   driver*** drive the car while they waited for the BF to get out of
   class.........

   I was so upset over the whole episode, she was told she'll never take
   care of my son again - she's since had her own child and I worry about
   what will be her stand on this as he gets older.

   My son has also learned, if he's with someone else, and they want to
   take him for a ride, NO SEATBELT = NO GO !!!!!!!!

    This is really sad.   I've got my 6 year old conditioned that she
    doesn't get in the car withouth putting on her seatbelt.  If she gets
    in the car and I think that she is buckled in and she's not, if I start
    to drive off she will tell me.  "Wait mommy,  I need to put my seat
    belt on.  I don't want to be a crash car dummy...."  (Where did she get
    this crash car dummy?,  I know I've seen commercials but I didn't
    realize she had)   She will even tell me to buckle up and not to be a
    crash car dummy when I forget to buckle my seat belt.   She also
    recently got a bicycle with a safety helmet.   We've told her that if
    she wants to ride the bike, she will wear the helmet, so that she can
    be safe.   Well now,  when we are riding along and she sees other kids
    riding without helmets, she says to me, "mommy, they are being safe,
    they aren't wearing their helmets".   I tell her your right Jessica,
    you wont ride your bike without your helmet will you?  And she tells me
    right away.  "Oh no mommy, I want to be safe..."
    
    

    I believe there is a helmet law out there now in the legislature.  It
    will mandate helmets for children (might even include adults).  I've
    got a funny feeling it will probably breeze through since most of our
    legislators are parents.
    
    As for my previous note, I keep the 800 number handy, and oh yes I have
    stopped strangers and tried nicely to let them know they are both
    breaking the law as well as endangering their children.  Imagine my
    thoughts a few weeks ago.  There was an older child riding in the back
    section of an older station wagon, in a prone position above the level
    of the seatbacks.  I could only imagine what could happen if the wagon
    stopped short, or was rear ended.  This was in very heavy stop&go
    traffic.  Some people are grateful, most just don't know the law,
    others are defensive and quite verbal.  I guess I'll just have to
    develop a thick skin.
    
    Happy fourth everyone!
    Lyn

    THANKS SO MUCH FOR THE 800 NUMBER!!
    
    I can't tell you how many times I've also seen children unbuckled in
    the car.  The one that got me was the day I was walking out of stop &
    shop in Franklin and saw a new born baby girl all dressed up and being 
    held in the arms of the front seat passanger.  I couldn't help but
    think that they put so much care in her hand made knit outfit & other
    frizzle, yet they don't seem to care for her life.  The whole
    incident caught me at such surprise that before I knew it they were
    gone and I had done nothing.  Everytime I think about it I get so
    angry.
    
    My heart sickens at the tought of children being injuired or killed,
    especially since it can so simply be prevented.

I also live in Franklin.  The other day when picking my daughters up at day care
a man came to pick up his child on a Harley.  The kid was only about 3 maybe 4
best case.  Is there any laws about children on motorcycles besides helmets?

Michael

    RE: .168
    
    Nope
    
    JT

    and it continues....
    
    <flame on>
    
    Over the weekend the headline read "10 injured in a two car head on
    collision.  The only person uninjured was a 3 month old, secured in a
    car seat.  Others ranged from 3 years to teen, to adult.  Two remain in
    pedi intensive care in Worcester and Springfield, none of the occupants
    had seat belts on!
    
    What does it take to get these children to buckle up?  These kind of
    headlines make me phsycially sick!
    
    There was an associated bar graph in the local paper Sunday which showed
    that the year with the least injuries was the year there was a seatbelt
    law which was manditory for ALL people in MASS.  Does this say
    something for seatbelts?
    
    I'm going to call the 800 number as many times as it takes to keep our
    kids safe!
    
    <flame off>
    Lyn

    This past weekend as I was getting out of the car to go into the house,
    a friend of mine was coming down the street.  She stopped when she saw
    me.  Her 1 1/2 year old son was standing up on the front passenger
    seat.  I asked her why he wasn't in his car seat (which was in the back
    seat) and she replied, "You sound like my mother.  Why don't you mind
    your business.  I was only coming from the park."  I got really upset. 
    My heart started to beat really fast.   I let her know how much of a
    sore spot it was with me and how it was upsetting me.  She seemed to
    not care and just drove off making an assenine comment.
    
    If I don't know her license plate # but her name and address, can I
    call the 800 # and give them her name and address for them to send her
    the literature?
    
    Lori B.

    I have to add my note.  On Sunday a convertable (with top down)drove up
    behind me on Somerset Parkway and proceeded northbound on Rt 3.  For
    those of you not familiar with Nashua, NH. Somerset Pkwy is off of 101A
    which is a death trap itself, never mind that the car headed onto the
    Highway.  I looked in my mirror to see 5 people in the car.  A little
    blond haired boy was sitting on someones lap in the front seat.  I just
    cringed at the thought of her stopping short or worse yet having an
    accident and this poor child getting catapulted out of the convertable. 
    It bothered me so much that I just drove as fast as I could to get away
    from her.  I didn't want her behind me or in front of me.  
    
    Donna

    RE:-1
    
    I agree wholeheartedly. I have seen many a times people who let
    children either stand in the car by the windows, or on the seats
    looking at cars behind them from the rear window. It makes me wanna
    stop my car and theirs and give them  a piece of my mind. A close
    friend of ours was involved in an accident which totaled their station
    wagon and there were 2 children and a pregnant woman in their car. NONE
    of them were belted !!!! The kid (4 yrs then) got flung forward but
    luckily was sitting in her grandma's lap in the rear so she got flung
    only upto the front seat. The wife sustained neck injuries, the
    pregnant lady hurt her back, etc. Luckily noone was seriously hurt but
    the cop on the scene gave them a ticket for not having the children in
    seat belts. NOW THEY THINK TWICE BEFORE DRIVING WITHOUT THE SEATBELT.
    
    In our family, the car does not move without all passengers securing
    their seat belts. Our 4 yr old Avanti always reminds us to wear our
    seat belts. 
    
    Shaila

    This is also a hotpoint with me.  I wouldn't dream of letting
    Steven ride without a seatbelt, and even if I did, he wouldn't
    let me.
    
    We were away with friends this weekend and when their car
    started moving before he was belted into his booster seat,
    he got very upset and starting yelling "WAIT!  DON'T GO YET!"
    
    Since I'm in the "Car Seats, Booster Seats, Infant Carriers" topic,
    has anyone purchased the "Ride and Rest" pad that hooks onto 
    Booster seats?  It provides head support for little ones when
    they fall asleep in the car.  It's advertised in the Right Start
    Catalog.  It seems like a solution to our problem.  Do any of 
    the local stores (in Mass) sell something like this?
    
    		Linda

    
    We got the "ride & Rest" for Sophie when she switched to a booster
    seat.
    
    It does the trick... unless she's leaning forward  :-)
    We're glad we have it for longer trips!
    
    Jadm

    re .171, I honestly don't know if it can or can't be done.  However my
    feeling is that if the agency can tap into a database to pull up an
    owner and address through a license number, then in all likelyhood the
    same database can pull up what it needs by you just giving them the
    name and address, which is what they really need to mail the info
    anyway.  The reason it is set up by plate number is most people see
    cars on the highway, and don't know the driver.  In your case you know
    the parents' name and address and can provide it.
    
    re .173, the situation you described is NOT LUCKY!  It is the exact
    circumstances that killed a 5 year old boy on route 395 in Oxford a
    couple weeks back.  To clarify my note a few back, where the 800 number
    was originally posted.  The boy was riding in another teens lap, was
    struck from behind and was slammed into the front headrest, breaking
    his neck, killing him instantly!  NO NO kind of lap riding is safe!
    
    Lyn
    (the EMT and Momma!)

    My mother goes around in circles with this one - When I was little 
    she didn't use a car seat and can't see how (on the longer trips) I
    insist on making my little girl use hers (20 months..).
    
    She does use it when she has my little Sammy but...the other day she
    called and told me that a lady from the next town over was driving
    down the hwy (they are just 2 lane roads out there).. Apparently her
    baby had dropped her bottle and the lady leaned over to get it and
    crashed right into the back of a harvesters truck.  Killed the baby
    instantly, (head injuries)..and that baby was in a car seat.  Mom
    walked away. 
    
    I know it's one in a million but...it does happen..
    
    On the lighter side, Samantha tells me "Seatbelt on" when we get in the
    car and will continue to do so until I put it on.  That's one way to 
    protect mommy I guess!  
    

    
    Well, another vote for seatbelts!  I was in a car accident about 1.5
    years ago.  The boys were with me, and as always, were buckled in.  I
    wasn't.  We skidded across the road, into a tree.  I was thrown forward
    into the windshield and dashboard on the PASSENGER side of the car,
    broke the windshield, and injured my neck, back and knees pretty good
    from the impact.  The car was totalled.  I had to be taken to the
    hospital, and was in a neck brace for ~ a week, as well as a lot sorer
    than you could imagine!
    
    The boys?  Jason was perfectly fine.  Chris had a mark on his neck
    where the seatbelt (shoulder strap) rubbed when we hit.  Neither one of
    them was the slightest bit hurt, physically.  It doesn't take much to
    imagine how easily they'd have been tossed around, if I was tossed
    completely forward, over the shift and onto the other side of the car.
    And most likely, Chris wouldn't have even gotten the mark on his neck
    if I'D been buckled, because it seems that I pushed him against the
    belt more when I went across the car.
    
    So, that was all the proof I needed that, YES, they do work! 
    Especially after spending almost an hour in the FREEZING cold while the
    EMTs tried to get me out of the car.  To think I could've just walked
    if I'd taken the extra few seconds to buckle up!
    
    So, take the time to buckle your kids, and then take the time to buckle
    yourself so you don't "crush" your kids in a crash .... 
    

I've even managed to retrofit our 1924 Studebaker with lap belts so we can
secure the 2 booster seats for the kids.  I put in 4 sets of them (@$45/set) so
we all will be buckled in.

Our vehicles don't move until everyone's buckled in too.  The kids make sure as
much as we do.

Do school busses have seatbelts?

Dave

    
    re .30
    
    Dave, it's my nderstanding that most school buses do *not* have
    seatbelts; your school system my differ.
    
    Jamd

    
    
    
    Last night when I was out for a walk with the family I saw a camero off
    in the distance driving with two girls (around 7) sitting on the ledge
    of the open window and holding onto the roof of the car.  The car was
    going so fast around the corner that I couldn't get a number.
    I just couldn't believe a driver would do this.............maybe 10
    years ago that wouldn't have surprised me..........but we know to much
    now to be this stupid.
    
    rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
    
    

    Re: a previous note about "mom" saying that what was good enough
    for you should be good enough for your kids.
    This is a time for a diplomatic discussion;
    - at that time since very few people wore belts, very little
    statistical data was available on their safety.
    - We are still at the mercy of car manufacturers in terms of optional
    safety equipment. Thank goodness belts have made the law books in
    terms of standard equipment
    - Face it, cars are smaller and use less metal now than they used to.
    How many times have you heard stories where the old cruiser got a 
    scratch and the toyota was destroyed??
    - It is more dangerous to drive. More cars on the road, and the 
    teaching methods and licencing methods have not been updated to cope
    with today's situations. Many of the roads we use today were designed
    for the traffic of 30 years ago.
    
    Tell mom things have changed......
    
    Monica
    (from a family where buckling-up is religion)

Fortunately, we never had to deal with the grandparent issue.

As my daughter (13) approaches driving age, though, I'm starting to worry 
about peer pressure.  She's very good about buckling up automatically when 
she gets in the car, but in this and many other areas, peer pressure and 
teenage rebellion can undo years of nagging, cajoling, and good habits.  And 
it's especially a problem since teen drivers tend to get in more accidents 
than older drivers.  I cringe every time I hear of a carful of teenagers who 
are killed in an automobile accident, none wearing seatbelts.

Clay

    I have to say that 99% of my friends (including me) didn't wear their
    seatbelts in Highschool (most still don't..) BUT..there was one of
    my best friends that ALWAYS wore hers, no matter how many people
    we had crunched into a car, She always had a seat where she could
    buckle up!!!
    
    Keep nagging, it worked for her!
    
    -/andrea

    I made a comment to my husband last weekend that with any kind of luck
    the next generation will look at buckling up as naturally as tieing
    their shoes.  I don't even have to remind AJ anymore, it's just a
    knee-jerk reaction to him.
    
    RE: the grandparent issue, we had only a minor problem last summer with
    the two kids from Florida, staying with my inlaws.  They piled into the
    back seat of their car, and we stood there in our driveway waiting (it
    seemed hours) for the kids to buckle up.  Then my inlaws said "no they
    don't *Have to* buckle up"  EXCUSE ME-WHAT!!  There is a law that says
    otherwise.  They simple wern't aware of it, and aparently while living
    in Florida the mother had been not enforcing their state seatbelt law.
    This year the kids get in the car and automatically buckle up too.  Not
    bad on the surface, but what they are doing is not so safe, they take
    the shoulder belt and somehow manage to get it behind them, so all that
    is keeping them in is the lap belt.  I make sure they are fully belted
    in, in my car, and check frequently while driving to make sure they
    stay that way.  But AJ is a good "policeman" on that anyway, it's the
    only time I welcome him being a "tattle tale" or "showoff".  He will
    either sing out loud and clear that Jason has his seatbelt off, or I
    will hear him tell Jason how his seatbelt should be worn!  They are
    basically really good kids!
    
    I wish more places that cater to kids would post signs like McDonalds
    has, there is a sign at the exit to the road that says 
    	"Buckle up Childrens' seatbelts"
    
    Lyn

    Well, I hope buckling up is more natural than tieing shoes.  Most of
    the teenagers, and pre-teens, that I know/see don't tie their shoes :-)

    They either knot them very loosely so that they slip on, or the cut
    them short enough not to trip on, or they remove them altogether!

    As for the shoulder/lap belt .... depending on the size of the child,
    according to our pedi., the shoulder belt can do more harm than good.  
    Chris is BARELY big enough for it, Jason definitely is not.  So, it
    gets tucked behind them.  As long as the lap belt stays snug, it
    doesn't appear that it would be a problem at all.  And after seeing
    that mark on Chris' neck from the shoulder belt, I can definitely see
    where a child too-short could be more injured from the shoulder belt.
    
    -Patty

    We had the problem with Derek too that he would always put the shoulder
    piece of the seat belt in back of him.  I never liked him doing that,
    and at Caldor's found a "sleeve" that you put on the seat belt so it
    brings the should piece lower so it isn't bothering his neck.  It was
    about $13.00 - a little on the pricey side - but Derek is worth a heck
    of a lot more than that!!  I highly recommend this to other parents! 
    I've also sat in the seat that has it on the seat belt, and it also
    makes it much more comfortable - even for me - since it adds a little
    "pillow" to the seat belt where it hits your tummy.
    
    Barb

    I'm 4'11" and put the shoulder belt behind me 'cause if I don't, it
    irritates my neck.  But I always wear my lap belt.
    
    Lori B.

    Just a nit here...
    
    More pelvic and spinal cord fractures come out of not having a shoulder
    belt on!  But I guess if you weigh the pros and cons of NO seatbelt as
    opposed to a lap belt only, I guess it adds up half is better than
    none.
    
    This is how the law of having shoulder belts in the back of the vehicle
    came about in the first place.  Several people, mostly children,
    sustained permanent paraylsis in accidents, because they only had a lap
    belt one (only thing available at the time), and were thrown severely
    forward on impact severing the spinal cord, or breaking the pelvis
    bone.
    
    In my car the shoulder belt is adjustable on the upper side, (door post
    side) to accomodate shorter people.  I carry teens in my car
    frequently, some are still rather short.  The girls learned early on
    how to adjust the shoulder belt.  I REFUSE to move my car until
    everyone is belted in!
    
    Lyn
    (the EMT who has seen too many training films with real bodies and
    crash dummies, and knows the implications!)

    You can also get a seat belt extender from the car dealer.  It's just
    the buckle part of the belt, and snaps into the end of the attached
    belt and buckle.  I'm 5'4", and the belt didn't bother me when we got
    the car, but then again, it was OCtober and I was wearing heavier
    clothes.  I happened to mention it to the service people one day in May
    when  I was in, and they handed the piece to my husband the following
    week when he took his car in.  They didn't charge me, don't know if
    that's standard practice or just this dealership.  But it's been real
    nice not having the belt scraping my neck.
    
    sandy

    
    I'm interested in finding out more about the Kangaroo booster seat.
    Does anyone know why it's only approved in the US for 50 lbs and up?
    What is it about the seat that would make it unsafe for a child under
    50 lbs?
    
    My daughter is 3 years old, but very tall (42 inches),and weighs about
    36 lbs.  We've had her in a Fisher Price car seat, but her head is
    above the top of the seat, and the straps really cut into her neck.  I
    can't see a way to lengthen them while the seat is buckled.  (Before
    it's buckled, there's plenty of slack in the strap.  I think it cuts
    into her because the slots where the strap comes out of the seat are
    too far below her shoulders.)   I haven't seen a "regular" booster seat
    that I like.  I've seen children climb in and out of some of them
    easily, and I can't see how they'd hold a child in an accident.  We
    have a booster where the center piece is held by the lap or shoulder
    belt, but it's too tight.  My daughter is very thin, but she cries
    because the seat is too tight on her.  Also, I'd prefer that she was in
    a seat with head rests.
    
    The Kangaroo seat looked like the answer, until I read the weight
    requirements.  I know it's approved in Canada for 40 lbs.  We're in MA.
    
    Also, at what weight/age in MA can she be out of a car seat?  I want to
    keep her in one as long as possible, but I'm wondering if say, the
    law said she just needed a seat belt after 40 lbs, would it be OK to
    use the Kangaroo at 40 lbs instead of just a seat belt? 
    
    Thanks,
    -Lynne

    I use a booster seat for my 2.5 year old, which has a thick, padded
    "bar" in front of him.  The problem is that the bar itself, and the
    booster seat in general, is so restraining that he is truly 
    uncomfortable.  He can't reach any part of his hips, legs, or feet
    if he needs to scratch.  He can't even squirm around to just settle
    into a slightly different position on a long ride.  (He's only 34 lbs,
    so it's not that he's too big for the booster.)  I make him use it,
    of course, each and every time he's in the car, but I do feel sorry 
    for him when he screams for me to pull over (when I'm on the highway!)
    and scratch his knee for him.  
    
    I think more parents would adhere to the usage of booster seats if
    they were more comfortable for the children.  After all, I wear a 
    lap and shoulder belt at all times, but at least I can't shift around
    a bit or reach down to scratch my knee.  So why do we have to put our 
    children into "straight-jackets"?  
    
    Jane
    

To answer my own questions in .192, in case anybody else is interested:

>>    Also, at what weight/age in MA can she be out of a car seat?  I want to

I called the state police, who told me the law says a child must be in a car
seat or booster seat until they're 5 years old.  No restriction based on
weight or height.  (I found that kind of strange.)

>>    I'm interested in finding out more about the Kangaroo booster seat.
>>    Does anyone know why it's only approved in the US for 50 lbs and up?
>>    What is it about the seat that would make it unsafe for a child under
>>    50 lbs?
    
I called Down Under Designs in Concord, MA.  They're the
manufacturers/importers(?) of the Kangaroo seat.  The woman there told me that
the US Federal standard for car seats was written when there were usually only
lap belts in back seats of cars.  Therefore, there is no provision in the law
for boosters that use shoulder belts, such as the Kangaroo.
She said that based on their safety tests, they feel that the seat is safe for
30 lbs and over, and that they've passed the crash tests with 3 and 6 year old
dummies.   But until/unless the law is rewritten to take shoulder belts into
account, the seat can only be sold for 50 lbs and up in the US.

FWIW,

    -Lynne

    Interesting, that it can be sold only for 50 lbs + -- I've been using
    one of these seats for the past six months, and my daughter doesn't
    weigh 50 lbs yet, at age 5 3/4.  She's over 40 lbs though, and too tall
    for a regular car seat.  I'd been using a booster seat for her, w/o the 
    bar across the front [combination of it being too tight plus the bar broke 
    off!], and a shoulder harness-type seat belt, but she'd have problems if she
    fell asleep, so I bought one of the kangaroo seats [a used one] and
    have been very satisfied with it.  I like especially the fact that it
    helps keep the seatbelt from cutting directly into her neck.
    
    sandy

    My daughter is 6 and weighs 37 lbs.  (She's 25th percentile, so 1 out
    of 4 six-year-olds weigh less!)  She's been using a Kangaroo seat for a
    year and it fits perfectly with the shoulder belt.
    
    She's the only kid her age I know in any kind of car seat.  The thought
    of her in a booster seat until second or third grade seems downright
    silly to me.
    
    We're hanging onto the Kangaroo seat until the shoulder belt comes to
    the right place without it.  At that time, about 5 different in-laws
    think they have dibs on it.

    
    I saw a different type of booster seat in the mall this weekend.  It
    looked like a miniature bucket seat. It has a high back with a little
    headreast.  The one I saw had a black cover.  It's made by either
    Fisher Price or Century.  I believe this thing gets strapped into the
    car like the bigger infant/toddler seats.  A shield type shoulder
    harnes us used to keep the child in the seat.  I think the weight range
    was 40-85 lbs.  One of the advantages I could see was that it did offer
    some support if the child falls asleep.  Has anyone seen/tried one of
    these seats?  I'm thinking about one for my son.   
    
    marianne

    Does anyone know where I can buy a locking clip for a child's car seat
    in the greater Nashua/Westford/Burlington area?
    
    Carol

    If you mean the H shaped metal piece that holds the lap belt and
    shoulder belt tightly together under the car seat, they are very
    easy to get.  I've been in some car repair shops where they have a
    bucket of them sitting out for you to help yourself.  If you go to
    your car dealership and ask for one, they'll probably give you one
    for free.  Or you can call the manufacturer of your car seat and 
    they'll probably send you one for free.
    
    Jane
    

    I have a 3 year old, who is 37 lbs and 39" tall.  We have two cars,
    and have a booster seat for him in each car.  
    
    My concern is for when I go into labor with child #2 (due in January).
    If this occurs during the day while my child is at day-care, I will
    call my in-laws and they will go pick him up from day-care at the end
    of the day and take him to their house for the night.  But, what will
    they do about a car seat for him while they are driving him from
    day-care to their house?  (About a half-hour drive.)
    
    I know one option is for me to take one of our car seats out of the
    car every day and leave it at the day-care center, in case I go into
    labor that day, and put it back in every night when I pick him up.
    But these car seaats are a pain to put in, especially with the 
    shoulder/lap belts and the locking clip.  It's pretty tough when 
    you're in your last trimester to constantly be leaning into the
    back seat struggling with a car seat.  
    
    I've heard varying reports about when a child is legally allowed to
    be in a car without a car seat.  Some say 4 years old or 40 lbs, some
    say 5 years old or 50 lbs.  My son doesn't meet either of these 
    requirements.  But just for the sake of argument, does anyone know
    what the true law is in Massachusetts?  If it's 40 lbs, maybe I can
    get some weight on him before I have the next baby!  
    
    In general, how do you deal with having your child in someone else's
    car and the car seat issue?
    
    Jane
        

    I think the car seat you saw is the Century Breverra.
We have two.  It has worked out well although we never 
tried the "standard" booster seats so I can't compare.
As far as support for the head while the child is sleeping
it does not provide much.  My son complained that he liked
sleeping in his old car seat better.  We now keep a pillow
in the car and he is happy.  Also the shield can only be
adjusted by using a screwdriver and hammer.  I think the
shield is only designed to be used up to 45 pounds.
  To use this car seat without a shield requires a car with
BOTH lap and shoulder belts.

Elizabeth

    I recently talked with Spencer's Doctor about putting him in a booster
    seat in the car and not the "full car seat". Basically she said that he
    is large enough to be put in a booster seat but that they could wiggle
    out of booster seats (if they want) and it does not offer the head
    support if they fall asleep. (2 years 37 pounds). Her advice was to
    keep  him in the car seat for as long as possible but not to sweat it
    if we "had" to move him to a booster.

    	In the case of picking up your 3 year old, you might want to  buy a
    booster seat (something that you will have to buy eventually) and let
    your inlaws keep it until the new baby is born. They could use that for
    picking him up.

    	We were hoping to avoid having a million car seats but Griffin grew
    too fast and Spencer did not fast enough. In our house we have 1 infant
    seat, 2 car seats and a booster seat in waiting. We are hoping that
    this formula will cover all of our future needs.

    	And by the way, when you are "severely pregnant" IMHO even carrying
    your lunch is too much. ;-)

    			Wendy

rental - rent a car seat for a month.  Either
leave it in your parent's car or at your
daycare providers...

Pat

We'll be visiting my parents over Christmas.  They borrowed a carseat 
in an effort to avoid us having to bring ours.   

The brand they borrowed is a Bobby Mac.    It sounds like an 
infant/toddler seat, faces rear up to 20 pounds, and forward up to 40 
pounds.  We have a 13 pound 5 month old.  

I've never heard of it and want to be a little more sure before I 
trust it.  Anyone know anythign about these?  

Hi,

Has anyone else used or purchased the Century car seat and can share their 
opinion on this seat?  Is anybody else marketing a similar product?  (Has
Consumer Reports done a piece on the Breverra?)

Thanks,

Ron

    I rec'd a discount sheet from Pilgram health care the following is an
    example:
    
    Century 5000 STE through Pilgram's buy program $72.35 Toys are us $89.00
    
    They have other products available.
    
    

    FYI 
    
    
    
    Midas sells "Century STE 5000" cars seats for
    $42.00 plus tax.   
    
    My son will make the transition from infant
    to "big boy" car seat this week.  Where does the 
    time go... :0( ..
    
    Susan
    

I just called Midas... They told me it was the 1000, not the 5000.

Also, once the child grows out of the car seat, you can bring it back
and they will give you a credit of $42 towards Midas services.

Sounds like a good deal... now I have to find out if I like the car
seat.  

Karen

Question...

	Lauren is 7 months old, 27-3/4", and 18 pounds.  Her car seat
	says that infants should be rear facing until they weigh 20 lbs
	yet they also limit the height to 26".  

	So, can I turn her around yet?  

	Karen

    Well, We turned Nicholas around 2 months ago.
    
    When we got him his "Big Boy" car seat, we put it facing front.
    He was 18lbs and 26".....
    
    He was a lot happier riding in the car facing front.
    
    Anne Marie

I also turned Noelle around "early".  She had outgrown her infant car seat,
but was not over 20 pounds.  I suspect it was a moot point since we didn't
have an accident.  You might want to call your pediatrician and get his/her
advice.

    When the child is at or near the cutoffs, I've always read these
    specs. as - if using rear facing the child should weigh no more 
    than X and be no taller than X. I assumed it was more to do with 
    how the seat reacts in a collision, rather than the comfort of the 
    child.
    
    Rowan's 1st seat (rear facing only) specified an age and a weight but
    no height, he moved to a bigger seat because he was too long for the
    first one. But then we've never had an accident with him in the car, so
    fortunatly my theory has never been tested.
    
    Why not ring the manufacturer for a definitive answer?
    
    Andy

    I just turned Jonathan around this w/end.  I'd guess he's about 18-19
    lbs.  His seat says they should remain rear facing until 20 lbs, or
    until they have VERY good control of their head/neck, whichever comes
    later.
    
    BUT, with his seat facing rear, and no A/C in the car, I think he was
    actually sweating off the lbs because there was no air getting to him. 
    He LOVES facing forward ... and I think it's a little safer since
    suddenly I can see out my passenger side and mirror again (-:  I
    haven't been able to cause of the car seat blocking it for the past 9
    mos!  A pound or two can be the difference in jeans and a soggy diaper
    versus a light (dry!) summer outfit - not a major difference, as long
    as you're close.
    
    ...plus he loves the vents blowing in his toes...(-:

    For those people who have booster seats, what do you do when the kids
    fall asleep.  
    
    We just bought a booster seat for Lindsey but did not consider that she
    sleeps in the car.  Her head was bobbing back and forth and she did not
    really sleep.  I would not think that this is the most comfortable
    position nor would it be the best for her neck. 
    
    Any suggestions?  Is there some type of head protector that would rest
    over the back of the seat?  
    
    Thanks,
    Lisa Cozzens
    

    
    My boyfriend had this dilemma with his 3-year old.  His solution was to
    move the booster seat to the back seat, as close as possible to the
    edge (door/wall, depending on your car).  Then he takes a regular bed
    pillow, and puts that between his son and the wall, and kind of "leans" 
    Greg onto it.  Works like a charm!  
    
    Of course there's still times when he flops horizontal on the seat,
    minus his waist/legs ....

    I got a back cushion from the "Right Start" catalog, that basically
    bolsters him in the booster seat and gives him an edge to lean on.
    

    I looked but did not find reference on whether to use a car
    seat again, if involved in an accident.
    
    I was involved in a broadside accident Sat afternoon in Westford
    (woman did not see stop sign and I swerved to avoid her, but
    unfortunately I could not react in time).  My right front corner
    is totalled.  
    
    Had it not been for my airbag, I'd be dead or severely injured
    since both of us were going 35-45 mph.  The Gods were watching
    over us that day.  
    
    My daughter was in rear right side, in her Renolux 5 point car
    seat.  She was not injured, and hardly even shaken, not even
    a bruise.  
    
    What is the advice/experience of using car seats once they've been
    in an accident?  Seat does not appear damaged, but mgf'r advises    
    against using it again.
    
    What a year it's been!
    
    Thanks...Kathy

    
    The "rule of thumb" is, that if you've had to "use" the seatbelt in the
    event of an accident, that the belt/seat should be replaced.  The belt
    because it's been stressed, and the seat because they're usually
    fiberglass or plastic, and hairline cracks can develop that could
    weaken the car seat, and not provide the protection you need in case of
    a future accident.  YOUR car seatbelts should be replaced as well.  I
    believe that insurance covers this - you just have to make sure it gets
    written into the estimate.
    
    Think of it this way .... you spent $100.00 on a car seat to provide
    your child w/ the best protection possible.  It did.  Would you do it
    again??  It stinks to have to dish out the money again, but it's worth
    it.  
    
    Call Renolux - maybe they'll recommend just replacing the belt, and
    sell you just the belt assembly?
    
    

    I agree with replacing it, it's not worth taking a chance.
    
    Would the person's that hit you insurance company pay for the
    replacement?  Afterall, it sounds like they were at fault and the
    paperwork that came with the car seat should say not to use it after an
    accident.
    
    Glad to hear that you're both ok.
    
    /Susan

    Glad to hear that your both OK.  Everytime I put Alyssa in her car
    seat, I always think to myself "will this seat really save her life"
    and I guess they really do work.
    
    I agree with replacing it.  The money is nothing compared to what could
    happen in the future (lets hope it doesn't).

Hello,

I have just recently reread this entire note, but am still hoping someone
out there can help me out a bit.

My son is 3.5, about 34 lbs, and about 40 inches tall.  I have an
'83 Subaru hatchback.  The back seat back backrest is not very high.
My son has been in the Fisher Price blue Carseat since he was about
11 months.  I have loved this carseat, and he has been happy in it as well.
I always place it in the middle seat in the back, as I know this
is the safest place.

A few months ago I purchased the Fisher Price Booster seat (mostly
because I was out of town with my son and needed a car restraint
in a hurry).

I think he is now too tall for the FB blue car seat, as the back straps
must come up and over his shoulder.  I believe I've read that this
is not safe.  He head is still low enough, however, to protect him
from whiplash.

I only have lap belts in the back seat.  I do have lap/shoulder belts in
the front seat, but as I said, I know the back seat is safer.

When he sits in the FB Booster seat, the level of the bump on the back of
his head is just about as high as it can be without being over the
top of the back seat.  I suspect within a month or so he will be too
tall.

I have been trying to figure out a solution, other than buy a new car,
for several months now.

I looked at the Century Brevarra car seat at the store, and felt this
might provide a solution until he weighs 45 lbs.  He could use it 
now with the t-shield straps along with the lap belt to hold the seat
to the car.  After 45lbs, you must use this seat with lap shoulder
belts only.

Has anyone used the Century Brevarra?  I've read the reply mentioning that
it was a pain in the neck to adjust the straps, and this worries me.
Also, another Mom at the store told me that she purchased this car seat
and ended up returning it because the seat belt looped through the
back of the car seat too high up on the base, causing it to tilt up.

Sorry this is so long, but one of my biggest fears is getting in a
car accident with my son in the car.  I insist he be secured safely
at all times.

Does anyone have a suggestion I've overlooked?

Thanks much,

Ginny 

We just got the Breverra and have been using it for about a week.

My daughter is just 30 pounds, so I wanted to get this type which had the
shield and not just use the seat belt.  So far, it has worked out well.

>I think he is now too tall for the FB blue car seat, as the back straps
>must come up and over his shoulder.  I believe I've read that this
>is not safe.  He head is still low enough, however, to protect him
>from whiplash.

I think the correct way to judge is where his head hits the back of the
car seat which you say is still ok.  My daughter's shoulders are above the 
strap slots also in the regular car seat, and she is less than 40" and still 
fits well.  We went to the booster in the second car as we wanted to use the 
toddler seat for the baby.  You might want to look through your literature on 
the FP seat to see if there is a max height listed, or call FP.

>I've read the reply mentioning that it was a pain in the neck to adjust the
>straps,

I just looked back through the notes, and someone adjusted the plastic
shield with a screwdriver.  I don't know why they had to do this, we didn't,
and moving the straps from the top slots to the bottom was similar to doing
it for the regular car seat.

>Also, another Mom at the store told me that she purchased this car seat
>and ended up returning it because the seat belt looped through the
>back of the car seat too high up on the base, causing it to tilt up.

We have a Ford Explorer and its seat has an incline to it already and the
Breverra fit in without a problem.  I don't know their rationale of putting
the holes to thread the belt in so high (about 1/3 of the way up the seat back).
You might want to just try one and see how it fits, but it sounds like you
can still get some more use out of your regular car seat.

Jackie

    We also bought a Breverra about a month ago.  My 3-year old daughter
    had previously been in the F-P car seat with the t-shield.  She did not
    outgrow it but my son outgrew his infant seat and we needed another
    kid seat.  We already have 3 FP car seats and I didn't want to buy
    yet another one since she'll outgrow them soon.
    
    I basically like the Breverra although it is a little more difficult to
    get my daughter strapped in.  Unlike her other carseat the straps do
    not extend/retract so you don't have much to work with.  It is a little 
    difficult to get the strap over her head, especially now that she has a 
    hat and/or hood on.  Also it requires 2 hands to buckle the strap
    whereas the FP could be done with one head.  This doesn't bother me but
    my husband likes the one hand entry/exit.
    
    I don't think she sits up quite as high in it so she probably can't see
    out the window as well.  She hasn't complained about this though.
    
    I didn't have any problems getting it into my car - a 4-door Honda
    Accord.  She is on the side these days since my son is on the other
    side so the bump in the middle isn't an issue.
    
    It does seem safer to me than the normal boster type seats so I thought
    that was a plus in its favor.
    
    Carol

Just a quick update.  I purchased the Breverra Booster/Car seat this
weekend at Best for $49.97, on sale.

Adjusting the strap length and height is quite easy, although nothing
will ever be as easy as the Fisher Price carseat!  I did read in
the literature that the pre-1994 models had a different type of
mechanism for adjustments, so it could be that you did need a 
screwdriver on earlier models.

I did have to put the straps on the top-most opening on the seat back,
as his shoulders were just over the middle slots.  The literature
says that the straps must come down over the shoulders, not up
and over.  Also, the literature on the F.P. seat says the same thing,
by the way, which is why I felt he had outgrown his F.P. seat.

He can stay in this chair until his shoulder height is over the top
opening slots, or he weighs 45lbs.  At that time, he can still use
the chair up till 60 lbs, but it must be used with the lap/shoulder
restraint.  This will mean either putting him up front, or
buying a new car.  Probably getting a new car will win!

Also, I found the Breverra very difficult to get strapped securely in
the back middle seat, although I did succeed, but only after a struggle
and a few broken nails.  The problem seemed more related to my
seat belt (it is not self adjusting), rather than the car seat.

Ginny

    Well, after replying to this topic on 11/28 (note 30.220) I never
    imagined that my husband would of gotten into an accident.
    
    Last night, he fell asleep at the wheel and awoke when he rammed into
    someone in front of him.  From him describing his car, I don't know how 
    we walked away alive (or just "walk away")....he said that his air bag 
    did not go off....he is lucky.
    
    Anyways, I assume the same is true - replace the car seat.  Thank god
    Alyssa was not in the car at the time.  It doesn't matter how the
    accident happened (all the damage is to the frontend) replace the seat
    no matter what?
    
    

    If there was no "stress" to the car seat or straps I wouldn't think you
    would need to replace it.  It didn't suffer the sudden deceleration
    with a 6-55 pound person hitting the straps.  Depending on if the car
    survives to be repaired, replacing the seat belt the carseat was
    fastened into, and your husbands would be a must IMO.
    
    meg

    
    On our book, it says "If the seat was used in an auto accident", so
    since there wasn't anyone in it, I would feel safe to assume that you
    don't need to replace it.  I would have any/all belts replaced that
    were used (your husband's, assuming he was wearing his, and the car
    belt that held in the seat).
    
    I'm glad to hear that your husband is okay!!  
    
    Take it easy, and try to enjoy the holiday...
    
    Patty

    My daughter is currently in an infant carseat.  However for the past
    month she has been a Houdini baby unclipping the clip for the shoulder
    straps.  She'd pull the clip down and slide one side of the lap belt out 
    of it. She will soon need a seat for greater than 20Lbs.  She is five
    months old, about 28" long and about 18 lbs.
    
    Rather than have me suffer from a heart attack over this - I am going
    to buy her a seat that is good for a child up to 40 lbs.  I was
    wondering if anyone has seen the Consumer Reports latest ratings on
    carseats.  (I can always go to the library and check it out - but with
    so much expertise here....)
    I've read all of the replies to this note but any additional comments
    would be welcome.
    
    Thanks,
    Nancy
      

    For the Houdini baby, I think that the 5-point harness systems seem to
    work the best.
    
    FIRST because they're more comfortable and less restraining, and leave
    the front of the child "open" (ie no plastic shield), your child may be
    less likely to WANT to get out.
    
    SECOND because they're just plain difficult to get out of.  On kid #3
    with a 5-point system, and none have been able to get out. 
    Occassionally Jason would get 1 arm out, but that's about it.  Toys R
    Us carried a few different manufacturers last time I looked.   They
    were near the $80-$100. price range (a bit steep, but probably worth
    it!).
    
    The ones we have (I can't for the life of me remember the
    manufacturer), have 1 belt that loops around (so it's easyto get both
    straps the same length), has the standard 2 straps come down at the
    shoulder, and exit through the seat, near the butt/thigh, and each side 
    has a clip, that you clip into a strap that comes up between the legs. 
    Then there's a clip in the middle that uses a SNAP to close across the
    chest.  
    
    I had bought a CHEAP one at JC Penny for the sitter (~$30.00, Cosco),
    but the padding pretty much fell apart, and the belt was very 'soft',
    so it ended up folding over and being a real pain. (guess you get what
    you pay for!)  The one that I'm using now has been in use for about 4-5
    yrs, and aside from some discoloration from the sun, appears to be
    holding up just fine (If you like I can get the mfg name, but the
    seat's ~7 yrs old).
    
    
    

    
    I bought a very inexpensive Kolcraft 5-point harness seat at
    Toys-R-Us and I love it.  It is probably the least expensive
    car seat you can buy.  One of the best things about it is that
    it is very light.
    
    ............................beth

I highly recommend the Fisher Price carseat.  It used to be in an all blue
color, but I believe it is now multi-colored, but it appears to be
the same design.  It is VERY easy to close and is self adjusting.  My
son who was in the seat from 11 months till 3.5, never was able to 
undo the clasp.  He is also the Houdini type (can open everything including
child proof medicine containers and all types of baby locks since 1.5 yrs old).

I know that the 5 point seats are supposedly safer in an accident, but it
is very easy to use these types of seats without the belts fitting correctly.
The beauty of the Fisher Price, is the shield/belts self-adjust easily.
Also, it is easy to fasten by an adult with one hand.  When he was older,
my son was able to clasp himself in.  He will not let me even start
up the car until he is 'buckled in'.

I hated to see him outgrow his Fisher Price carseat!

Ginny

	While I personally love the Fisher Price car seat for ease
	of adjustment and putting the kids in the car, I was rather
	dismayed at how easy it was for my daughter to get out, even
	with the straps tightly adjusted.  At ten months, she could
	get both arms out, and would have only the shield protecting
	her.

	We took to turning the shield over twice, which would twist
	the straps into a criss-cross, but in a very short time,
	she figured that out, too.

	When Andrew needed a carseat, we gave him Emily's, and bought
	her the newest Fisher Price, which has the self-adjusting
	straps, but also has the bar.  Emily will occasionally take	
	one arm out of the straps, but has been much more well-behaved
	in the new seat.  She has never stood up in it, which was a problem
	with the original FP seat.  I'm very very pleased with this
	seat.  It's expensive, but we were lucky to hit a big
	sale at Toys R Us and save $20.

	So far, Andrew has not caused any trouble, but he's not quite
	ten months yet (and he *did* just figure out how to stand up
	in either the highchair or stroller even with straps on... sigh...)

	Karen

    
    I will be buying an infant car seat in the near future. We
    are looking at the evenflow carseat which has the handle
    which is twisted.  Umm...  so that where you hold the 
    car seat is parrallel to your body instead of
    perpendicular.  
    
    Has anyone used these?  Are they really easier to carry the
    baby in?
    
    Amy

    Amy,
    
    I can't speak for the new "twisted" handles, but having had a heavy
    baby, I can say that the fact that our infant seat was perpendicular,
    made it difficult to carry him.  I would imagine that parallel would be
    REALLY wonderful!  The other advantage would be that if you HAD to, I
    think it would be easier to "balance" the seat on one arm.
    
    On the flip side - I think the "old fashioned" handles did a lot for my
    upper arm muscles (-:
    
    

I just purchased a new car with dual air bags.  I know that it
is not safe for an infant to be in the front passenger seat with
an airbag, but what about a 3 year old?

At what age would it be considered safer to have a child in the
front passenger seat if equipped with an air bag, versus in the back
seat (center or side)?

I've checked with the car dealership and my insurance agent, and they
did not know.  I also called my pediatrician, and they didn't have any
info.

My son uses a booster seat.

Thanks,
Ginny

    I understood the passenger side airbag was a danger to back
    facing (infant) car seats.  Front facing is not so great an
    issue.
    						cj *->  
    

    
    That's what I've seen .... the rear-facing infant seat can be pushed
    into the seat-back of the car.  Not that the air bag itself was a
    problem, but being jammed into a seat could be a problem.
    
    I'd bet that the infant/pediatric section of your Dr or Hospital would
    know for sure.
    
    -Patty

    My local dealer told me that a passenger side air bag is a danger to a
    child in a child seat, either way.  If the child seat is facing back, 
    it can be jammed into the car seat.  If the child seat is facing
    forward, the child will be too low to breath around the bag.
    
    M.
    

    The advice I received in the UK was that only rear-facing seats are a
    problem. Front-facing is OK, the issue of breathing round the bag is
    not meant to be a problem, since the bags deflate so quickly.
    
    FWIW.
    
    Chris
    

My daughter is four months old and hates the car seat.  I am guessing that
she is around 13 lbs.  She hasn't yet outgrown the car seat (it's a 
Century 590 that can also be used as an infant carrier).  It doesn't seem
to matter whether she is tired or not.  I have tried giving her a soft toy to
play with, or hanging a small toy on the bar of the seat, and playing with
her before we actually head off, and nothing seems to work.  She is 
actually pretty happy until the car starts to move.  I try to talk or sing
to her so that she knows that Mommy is close by, but that doesn't help either.
After about 60-90 seconds (literally), she will start to whimper and then
scream, and she can keep up the screaming for quite a while.  She doesn't
really like pacifiers, so she spits it out after just a second or two.

This may be a phase she is going through, but I know I would not like to be
sitting restrained and backwards in a moving car.  It's too early to turn
her around, although I think this would really help.  Her carseat is in the
back seat of our car, in the middle.  The only thing she can look at is the 
back of the car seat.

She is fine almost as soon as I pick her up out of the car seat.  I have not
been able to find anything that might be uncomfortable in the car seat itself.
I thought she might be getting car sick, but I wouldn't know what to do to
avoid this.

Finally, this has been going on for about one month, and seems to be 
getting progressively worse.

Has anyone run across this and been able to keep their infant happy?

Thanks very much.

Geeta

    
    My youngest son was the exact same way.   I dreaded taking him in the
    car.   We'd be going somewhere and people would say "oh, he'll probably
    sleep in the car".   No way, not our Alex - he would cry and/or scream
    the whole way.   Motion seemed to make it worse; he would usually quiet
    down a little 8^) at stop lights.  
    
    I never found a way to make him happy; it continued after he was moved
    to the toddler seat.   Fortunately, he did seem to grow out of it and
    isn't too bad now at 13 months.    Still, if he's fussy in the car now
    I find it better to not acknowledge him at all - if I talk to him, he
    just whines/cries more - almost like he's given up fussing until he
    hears my voice again. 
    
    One thing that I can think of that I didn't try is to lay a brightly
    colored quilt or mat over the seat backs to give her something to 
    look at or concentrate on.   
    
    Good luck - it is a pain!
    Carol  

You could try moving her to the front seat (as long as you don't have a 
passenger side airbag)

Lori

    
    
    Why "as long as you don't have a passenger side airbag?"
    
    Is there a safety issue?  Is it only with infants?
    
    (I don't have any airbags in my car so I don't know what the warnings
    are)
    
    

    Rear-facing carseats and airbags don't mix, according to the
    instructions on both of my car seats.  I guess there must be a risk
    with the seat being bounced around more by the bagts deployment as well
    as the collision.  
    
    I don't have any good hints for you.  Atlehi was not a car traveler for
    the first year of her life, if she could help it.  This was
    unfortunate, to say the least as I wound up having to take her on
    several long trips during that time, and she gained the nick-name
    "car-alarm" by one of the passengers.  
    
    Things that did help:
    
    Stopped the car every two hours and walked around with her.  (Not fun
    in cold weather)  
    
    Night driving made things worse.  Getting off the road as soon as
    possible after dusk was a priority.  
    
    As soon as possible, I turned her seat forward.  This at least gave her
    more than the back seat to look at.  Four months is still too young for
    you to do this though.  It did make it possible for me to see that she
    wasn't being injured by anything when she had her fits.  
    
    FWIW, at 19 months she started sleeping in the car, and now it is often
    the only way Frank can get her down for a nap.  
    
    meg

    
    I have a passenger side airbag and the visor in the car says 
    not to use it.  It says that forward facing car seats can be
    used however with the seat in the farthest back position.  I
    think that the airbag hitting a rear facing car seat is a problem
    that car manufacturers do not want to find themselves liable 
    for.  And for forward facing seats, they want to prevent the
    child from being smothered, I guess.  I thought airbags deflated
    really quick however.
    
    Hi Geeta... you heard my suggestions already!  But for others
    reference, I suggested using the seat around the house to get
    her used to it more.  Maybe adding a little rocking motion to
    simulate car movement might help too once she is used to "her chair".
    
    Karen

    I recently purchased a new car (Volvo) with front and side air bags.
    I was told (by several Volvo dealers)to absolutely not put any kind of 
    infant or toddler seat (forward or rear facing) in the front seat.
    Even if the car didn't have side air bags, I was told to absolutely not
    put a child in the front seat.  I was told it was because of the great
    amount of pressure that one would feel when an airbag inflated.
    In my current car (older Volvo) I keep Alyssa in the front seat.
    When I get the new car in a couple fo weeks, it'll be an adjustment for
    both of us.  (She tends to fuss in car seats anyway!)
    Nancy

    Is the car seat comfortable?  David fussed in the Century seat, but
    when I switched to a more padded Gerry seat he was fine.  The Century
    seat was hard vinyl and he couldn't move his arms around very much so I
    think he felt confined and uncomfortable.  Maybe try adding a car seat
    pad to see if it's a comfort issue?
    Sarah

Re: problem with airbags

I was under the impression that, with rear facing infant seats, the airbag
could push the infant seat into the car seat back, possibly crushing the
infant; with forward facing seats, the airbag packs a pretty hard whallop, and
a forward facing seat improperly positioned may put the child in the middle of
the deployed bag instead of just behind it.

Airbag instructions also advise you not to have anything in front of you
(between you and the airbag) while driving (or a front passenger) in a car with
an airbag, and that glasses may be hazardous.

Makes you wonder, doesn't it?

						Brian

Thnaks for all the great suggestions!

We actually have two car seats - one is a Century, the other is an  Evenflo that
is an infant/toddler car seat.  Neena cries in both of them. We have two cars -
one of them has a passenger side air bag, but we have the  car seat in the back
in both of our cars.  She actually can look out the window in one of our cars...

I never thought about padding the car seat or draping something bright or
patterned on the back seat, but I'll give it a try.

Thanks again!

Geeta

    If you have a cassette player, put in a children's tape
    (Raffi, Sharon Lois and Bram etc...)  This worked for us
    when Steven went through this phase and seems to be working
    with Katie also.
    
    To this day, the Mainly Mother Goose songs remind me of our
    vacation to Vermont.  I think the tape played continuously 
    for 4 days!
    
    good luck!  Linda

Yes, there is a safety issue with passenger airbags and carseats.  I believe
it is only with the rear-facing infant kind, but I won't swear to that.  I
don't remember the exact story, but it had something to do with the air bag
inflating in an accident and hitting the carseat and giving the baby whiplash
or something like that.  There should be something in the instructions for
your carseat if it is relatively new.

Hope this helps.

Lori

	I believe I also read that the front passenger seat is the 
	last in the list of preferred places for car seats (I think
	it goes middle of back seat, left of back seat, right of
	back seat, and front passenger seat) regardless of
	airbags.

	Karen

    Has anyone heard about the recent car seat tests that supposedly found
    problems with three seats?  It was on the news here in Chicago last
    week but I didn't catch it.  The people who did can't remember the
    model names.  

    I heard something about that too.  I know one was Century, and
    all three were failing at 30 mile an hour colisions.
    
    					cj *->

    I thought they said one was a Century 590 :-( -- one of the most
    popular infant seats around.  I tried calling Century last week but the
    line was busy.  If anyone gets through please post what the company
    says.
    
    Lisa

	I actually watched this on Dateline or one of those type shows
	last week.

	I remember the Century model was the 590 (its an infant seat that
	attaches to a base, on inpact the base stays secure in the safety
	belt, but the car seat seperates from the base). One of the other 
	models was made by Evenflo, I don't remember the name of the
	third manufacture.  But I assumed (maybe incorrectly) that they
	were all the type that had a base.

	The report said that Evenflo was recalling the model it manufactured
	but Century and the other manufacture were disputing the findings
	in the test.

	Sorry I don't have more details, but we don't have any of these
	kind of car seats so the information kind of went into my head
	and then out....

	Karen T.

The report I saw said the the gov't tests the infant car seats with
a 17.5 lb dummy but allows the manufacturers to specify a maximum of
a 20 lb baby.

The new tests by Consumers Union (?) found the extra weight was
enough in some cases to cause the seat to fail.

Garry

    
    Here we go again, more tests where the findings seem to be defective
    equipment and the manufacturers denying anything is wrong - just like
    Chrysler and their minivans - whats it going to take for those
    particular manufacturers of the car seats to correct the problem? 
    
    Hopefully, no children will be flung out of cars!
    
    

    I believe the issue with the Century 590 seat was when it was in the
    base ONLY.  The seat would fly off the base.  The seat can however be
    used in the car without the base and there is no safety risk.
    
    Nancy

    Just an FYI - If your car seat has emergency locking retractors 
    (shoulder/lap belts that lock if you tug on them!), you should
    probably get a tether strap for the child's car seat.  
    I called the manufacturer of the child car seat that I own and
    she said that there are a lot of people out there that don't realize
    that they need the optional tether strap.
    I recently got a new car so I called both the car consumer affairs
    office and called the car seat manufacturer and asked a lot of
    questions.  This is because even reading through the car seat user's
    guide, I wasn't sure what emergency locking retractors were!
    And my car owner's manual said to refer to the child car seat
    literature!  Installed without the tether strap the car seat 
    wiggles a little bit so if you rely on how it "feels" you could be 
    endangering your little one.
    Just an FYI, if you aren't sure, make a few phone calls.
    Nancy
    
    
    

    My new car came with an installable hook for a "car seat anchor".  I
    had my husband install that and he put together an anchor to make
    sure that the seat stays where it, should in the correct position. I
    also had him modify the idea for his truck.
    
    sandy

    Yes, it sounds like the anchor is similar to the tether strap.  My car
    has the anchor itself positioned under the headrest so the headrest has
    to be removed and the strap is attached to the anchor.
    
    nancy

    This is sounding like something I need.  I have the Century, I don't
    know - the 2000 maybe?  My back seat slopes so I feel the seat is not
    real stable to start with, and I also hate the way the seat belt just
    goes through the back.  There seems to me to be a lot of "play" from
    side to side too.  I am not comfortable with it's security.
    
    I'm going to re-examine all this when I get home tonight.  Maybe there
    is something in the papers that will tell me how to get this more
    secure.  
    
    						cj *->

>    Just an FYI - If your car seat has emergency locking retractors 
>    (shoulder/lap belts that lock if you tug on them!), you should
>    probably get a tether strap for the child's car seat.  

In some cars (like mine), the "emergency locking retractor" belts have a 
feature made especially for child seats...  If you pull the belt all the way 
out first, and then fasten the belt in place (as tightly as you can) then 
there is no slack or play in the belt - it is locked in place.

I got this info from the owner's manual - and it's also printed on a tag
at the base of the seat belt.

Dan

Both car seats I bought (infant and toddler) came with locking clamps for
retractible (sp?) seat belts.

Lori

    
    I have the Evenflo Scout.  It has the locking clamp for the retractable 
    seat belts, however it also says that the tether strap is *required*
    with the locking clamp for the retractable seat belts (belts that 
    automatically lock in a crash).  
     
    I had called Evenflo to verify, I called Volvo to verify that the
    tether was needed as well.  Evenflo is sending the tether strap.
    It was interesting that I tried to mail order the bracket parts for
    my car from a Volvo dealer and they had sent the wrong part.  I had
    called two Volvo dealers and they had never heard of the bracket
    parts either.
    I called ToysRUs to see if they had the Evenflo tether strap and they
    had never heard of it! 
    (You need specific hardware for your car and specific hardware from the 
    child seat manufacturer.)
    They don't make it easy for the consumer.
    
    Nancy
                             

    The Septmeber issue of Consumer Reports rates the child car seats.
    
    (Disclaimer - I haven't read it yet!)

The sep issue of Consumer Reports includes a review/test
of safety seats for children.

This report is different than the report Consumer Reports
had a few years back. Then they used the federal testing results
and reported on them but did no testing on their own, mainly
reported on features and convenience etc.

This time Consumer Report did their own testing which included some
heavier dummy-dolls to simulate children of a somewhat older
age (9 insetead of 6 month olds) than the federal testing had 
included. Two of the seats tested were found unacceptable in the 
test since they failed in the crash test, one of these seats was 
the popular Century 590. With the seat attached to the base, the seat 
was pulled from the base, without the base the seat was considered safe.

Cant remember which the other failing seat was.

The report is well worth reading

/Malin

    An FYI on the Evenflo On My Way Infant carseat, I called the 800
    number to check to see if there was anything I needed to make the
    carseat safer (like a tether strap, after reading these notes). I
    was given another 800 number to call and there is a retro-fit kit
    that is being sent to anyone who calls or is registered as having
    one of these seats.  It appears in some cases using the seat 
    WITHOUT the base can case the seat to crack and possibly not hold
    in an accident.  So if anyone has one of these seats they may want
    to call or make sure they get this retro-fit kit sent to them.  I 
    have still not talked with a person to get the original question
    answered, now the 800 number is experiencing technical difficulties.

I called Century consumer relations at 1-800-837-4044 and got a phone
number handling this issue: 1-800-614-3322. Calling that number gets
you an automated (semi-long) message talking about this issue and lets
you wait at the end if you want to talk to someone.

Basically, they say they have re-tested the seat again (July 1995) at
several independent labs (including the one that made the claim that
the seat separates from the base in a crash) and all found the Century
590 seat safe (contradicting the consumer reports findings).

They also say that since they started selling the model, they have never
had this claim made before for any seat involved in a crash and that since
1991 they have sold well over 2 million of them.

They also give a government number to call (national highway safety
department 1-800-424-9393) for their testing and they insist that the seat
is safe with or without the use of the base if used correctly and kept in
the rear facing mode.

Century says the seat is safe, that it meets all federal safety standards
and they are not recalling it.

Personnally, I'm glad to hear it, I like the seat!

Craig.

    I made a few calls about the Century 590 and I'm still a little wary
    after CU's findings, but I wanted to share with you what I have found.
    
    Both Century and the National Highway Dept. are strongly disputing CU's
    findings.  I believe Century said in its message that it did do tests
    with 20 lb. dummies, but I'm not quite sure (I'm sorry, tomorrow is my
    last day here, so I won't be able to tell you for sure, the info is at
    home).
    
    I called the Century number and the Nat'l Hwy. Dept. number that Craig
    gave in the last message (and for which I am eternally grateful!). 
    Then I called information and got the number for Consumers Union.  That
    phone number is 914-378-2000.  The first thing the message says is to
    press 7 if you're calling about the car seats.  Don't bother.  The
    message is very old and doesn't tell you anything new.  At the end I
    had the option of pressing the * button to get a customer relations
    person, which I did (try to get one at the beginning of the call!). 
    I asked her if CU had changed its position at all given the strong
    disputes.
    
    What she said was that CU did not change its position.  She said that 
    not one, but all of the car seats tested on the Century 590 failed the
    crash test with the base, using a 20 lb. dummy.  She said CU recommends
    using the seat without the base.  I asked her if she thought it would
    be okay to use the seat until the baby reached 17.5 lbs. and she said
    yes.
    
    I believe CU tested four of the 590 seats.
    
    I'm still a little confused, since Century and the Hwy. Dept. are so
    strongly disputing CU's claim.  But I feel better having all sides
    of the story.  I think I may use it with the base until the baby
    reaches 17.5 pounds (and in the meantime, I may try using it without
    the base to see if that's so difficult).  I have a feeling I'll want
    to be able to use the base the most when the baby is new (he's due
    in a few weeks).  Or I may just switch to the convertible seat at
    17.5 pounds.
    
    I haven't had time to access this board, unfortunately.  But I feel
    very lucky both that someone here has been kind enough to forward the
    car seat notes and that you have been sharing all this important 
    information.  Just want you to know I appreciate it, and I hope this
    note is helpful to you all.
    
    Janet
    

    re .271:
    
    	My daughter just had her one-year well baby checkup last week.  At
    that time, she weighed in at just about 20 pounds.  She has been out of
    her Century 590 car seat for quite some time now... I'd say probably
    since she was about six months old.
    
    	So, if the issue is using this seat past a certain weight, I'd
    think that you probably won't do this anyway.  When my kids were used to
    sitting up on their own, they weren't much interested in reclining car
    seat positions.
    
    	Peggy

There used to be a discussion about *why* car seats shouldn't be used in
the front seats of cars with airbags.  

I just found the following, from an Associated Press article.  I include
the entire article after this portion of it.

           Carol

<    Airbags can be lethal for babies riding in rear-facing infant seats
<    strapped in the front passenger seat. The inflating airbag will throw
<    the infant backward and the seat will then fling the child forward. 

<    Larkin said the motion is severe enough, even in a low-speed crash, to
<    cause severe and even fatal brain injury. 

<    For this reason, new auto safety rules soon will require that cars
<    without back seats have switches that will deactivate the passenger
<    side airbag. This will enable parents to turn off the bag when carrying
<    an infant in a rear-facing car seat. 

*********************************************************



    AP 13 Sep 95 5:05 EDT V0297
 
    Copyright 1995 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.
 
    Docs.: Airbags Can Hurt, Kill

    WASHINGTON (AP) -- An airbag can save a life in a high-speed car crash,
    but if drivers or passengers sit or lean in the wrong way, the
    inflating bag can break bones, injure eyes and even kill. 

    Emergency room physicians say they are seeing more and more people with
    minor injuries caused when auto airbags inflate in low-speed crashes. 

    Most of the injuries are minor, said Dr. Gregory Larkin of the
    University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine, but they would be avoided
    altogether if people became more aware of the dynamics of the airbag. 

    "People should sit with their head and face no closer than 10 inches
    from the airbag," said Larkin. "When airbags deploy, they fly out at a
    speed of more than 100 miles an hour and can cause damage." 

    Larkin, an emergency room doctor, make his remarks Tuesday at a
    national meeting of the American College of Emergency Physicians. 

    Drivers who put their hands or arms over the airbag container, which is
    in the center of the steering wheel, can experience broken bones. If
    the head is within the 10-inch zone, said Larkin, the fast-moving bag
    can cause cuts, abrasions, bruises and eye injuries. 

    "If you are hunched over the wheel and the bag deploys you can suffer
    damage to the head and chest even in low-speed accidents," said Larkin. 

    He recommended that drivers put their hands at the 10 o'clock and two
    o'clock positions on the steering wheel. This will keep limbs clear of
    a rapidly inflating bag. 

    Even more serious injuries are possible for children who may be allowed
    to stand on the floor of the passenger side in a car's front seat. In
    an accident, the airbag deploys with enough energy to fling the
    youngster backward, causing injury. 

    "Airbags are no substitute for common sense," said Larkin. "They really
    don't work well unless people also are strapped in." 

    Airbags can be lethal for babies riding in rear-facing infant seats
    strapped in the front passenger seat. The inflating airbag will throw
    the infant backward and the seat will then fling the child forward. 

    Larkin said the motion is severe enough, even in a low-speed crash, to
    cause severe and even fatal brain injury. 

    For this reason, new auto safety rules soon will require that cars
    without back seats have switches that will deactivate the passenger
    side airbag. This will enable parents to turn off the bag when carrying
    an infant in a rear-facing car seat. 

    The switch is only a stopgap measure because better technology is on
    the way, said Jim Erickson of Morton Automotive Safety Products, a
    leading maker of airbags. 

    He said the industry is now developing "smart airbags" that will be
    able to sense if there is a person in the passenger side seat and
    determine the exact position of the driver. Erickson said the master
    control will even know if a weight on the passenger seat is from a
    person, an infant carrier or a bag of groceries. Based on what it
    senses, the system will either inflate the passenger airbag or not. 

    The smart systems also can calculate the severity of a collision and
    determine how much the protective airbag should be inflated. 

    All of this is accomplished, said Erickson, in one-third the time of a
    typical eye blink. 

    Auto safety engineers also are developing airbags to protect from side
    collisions and floor board bolster airbags that will protect the legs
    in a high-speed crash, he said. 

As Janet (in reply 271) mentions (it was her last day here), she is no longer
at Digital but she saved my EMail address and sent me more information. This,
I am posting for her but I haven't confirmed any of it for myself... Ok?  Craig.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:	21-SEP-1995 16:50:04.17
From:	US1RMC::"Orcheski@aol.com"
To:	craiga::schomp
Subj:	590 Car Seat/Parenting Board

Hi, I really appreciated your note on the Parenting Board about the 590 car seat.

I posted a message following yours giving some of the info I got. Since
then, I found out just a little bit more. What I found out is related to my
original message.

I'm not at DEC, so I can't post this information. Would you mind posting a
brief message adding this information?

This is what I found out:

I saw two press releases (they were posted at Baby Warehouse in Woburn).  One
was from Century and the other was from Kolcraft.

Century claims that it did indeed test the car seat 200 times with a 20-pound
dummy.  After learning of CU's results, it tested the seat again with a
20-pound dummy, I think maybe 10 times (sorry, I don't remember the exact
number).  It passed every test.

This is what especially bugged me about CU:  In their press releases, both
Century and Kolcraft claim that they were given one day's notice by CU of its
findings.  A day later, CU planned to release the results.  Both Century and
Kolcraft said that they were concerned about the findings and wanted just a
few days to look into the problems and find out why there was a discrepancy
between their tests and CU's tests.  CU refused, claiming that the
information was a safety issue and so important that it couldn't wait even a
few days. But, Century pointed out, CU had come up with the results a few
months earlier and had not felt the same inclination at that time to hurry up
and share the results.

I had always respected CU, but all this leads me to believe that Century is
acting more responsibly than CU.  I do hope I'm right!  I just wish I knew
why the test results were different.

I hope you'll have the time to post this information.  If you do, I thank you
for your time and effort.

Janet

Does anyone know if I can purchase some kind of "sun brolly" for an
infants car seat. We just moved our month baby from a "toddler" seat
to a new infant care seat (the one recommended by Consumer reports - I
forget the name).  

One problem is that the sun is low in the sky here in New England and
therefore she gets hit with sun from almost all 4 sides, depending
on the direction one drives, so buying a "sticky" for the side window is
not useful.

I believe that one solution would be something like the "brolly" that is
on a stroller; can one get one that clips onto a car-seat and is safe ?,
otherwise, a pull-down hood, like on the "toddler-seat" would suffice ?.

Anyone have a formal solution, or a good and safe work=-around ?

Thanks. (E-mail me on STOWOA::COADY if you wish)

   We bought something like that from a catalog somewhere... its a round
   plastic disk with a flexible extension arm.  The arm has a clip on it
   for the visor and stuff, and also has a suction cup for the windows.
   You move the disk around to block the sun.  Its tricky if you're the
   only one in the car with the child and you're not driving straight -
   you end up having to re-adjust regularly, but it does work well.
   
   Its not heavy at all, so it probably won't fall off - the biggest risk
   is that the child will grab it and pull it off, but they won't get
   hurt.  Usually my son won't pull it off if its really working - he
   only tries to play with it when its still attached but the sun's not
   bothering him.
   
   Like I said - it was mail order, and I think it was called "Kid Lid",
   though I suspect there may be others out there too.
   
   fwiw,
   
   - Tom

    I also need the type of sun visor you described in the previous
    note.  I have never seen this type in any of the children's
    catalogs I receive.  If anyone sees something like, this could
    you post a note of the catalog.  It would be greatly appreciated.
    
    Thanks,
    Terry

Re: .274

>> Century claims that it did indeed test the car seat 200 times with a 20-pound
>> dummy.  After learning of CU's results, it tested the seat again with a
>> 20-pound dummy, I think maybe 10 times (sorry, I don't remember the exact
>> number).  It passed every test.

I recently got the most recent Consumer Reports.  Their "update" on this issue
summarized the above as "The manufacturer continues to deny there is a
problem."

I, too, get a little fed up with the arrongance of CU.  They can't even
acknowledge that the manufacturer is attempting to duplicate their tests?

						Brian

The NHTSA is trying to dupicate the tests though and CU said so.

If CU found a problem and Century and NHTSA didn't there are all kinds
of reasons possible, but something must be different ... The only fair way 
to be sure that test results match is for everybody to share and take part 
in common tests so the differences can be found.

It is not very fair to CU to say they're being arrogant ... one could say
the mfr is for denying a potential problem.  Cigarette makers do it all
the time!

Stuart

>> It is not very fair to CU to say they're being arrogant ... one could say
>> the mfr is for denying a potential problem.  Cigarette makers do it all
>> the time!

The impression left by the statement "...continues to deny..." is that the
manufacturer simply stated that there is no problem and continues to say so,
without necessarily any facts to back it up.  CU's failure to acknowledge that
the manufacturer has attempted tests similar to theirs, and has repeated such
tests after the CU results were reported, is IMHO arrogant, regardless of
whether CU believes the manufacturer's tests were correctly done.

They could have said, "The manufacturer claims to be unable to duplicate our
test results."  That would have expressed skepticism while acknowledging
Century's efforts.

Totally separately, while I strongly support CU's efforts and read their
magazine religiously, I find that they frequently like to blow their own horn
and make grandiose claims, which I find off-putting.  Taken with a grain of
salt, though, the service they provide is invaluable.

						Brian

    
    We're travelling soon by plane and will have friends on the other
    end to pick us up at the airport.  The problem is they have no
    child car seat.  We don't want to bring ours as it would be a real
    pain to check it in and we'd hate it if it got damaged.  Our friends
    are asking around to borrow a car seat, but so far no luck.
    
    I called rental car companies, and they don't rent *just* the
    car seat.  They are happy to rent you the seat if you rent a car,
    though.  Anyone been in this situation before?  Have any creative
    solutions?
    
    Thanks,
    
       Jim D.
    

I've always just checked the car seat as baggage.
I've seen baggage covers for carseats in one
of the catalogs (Right Start or One Step Ahead)
if you end up having to go that route and want
to minimize wear and tear.

Do the Rent-All places rent carseats?

Good luck!

- Deb B.

    Check with the hospitals, local to the area that you're going to.  A
    lot of time they'll rent out car seats.
    
    We just got back from Seattle, and checked the seat.  It was fine.  I
    even left the terry cloth car seat cover on the seat, and that was fine
    too - no damage, stains or anything.  And Jonathan was *THRILLED* to
    see something he recognized at the other end (-:
    
    Good Luck!

    I believe that I also saw carseats to rent the last time we were in
    U-Haul.  We travel with our kids a couple times a year and always just
    check our car seat(s) as baggage.  We've never had any problem with it. 
    If you do curb-side checkin, they're not really a pain to carry. 
    Besides, I figure we looked hard to find the car seat we felt the
    safest with.  I don't want to compromise for anything less for the sake
    of what's easiest for me.
    
    Irene
    

    
    
    Check the Rent-all places.  If you are going to a resort area there is
    sure to be a place where you can rent car seats, cribs etc.  My mom
    rented a car seat for us in Florida and we checked one with the airline
    for our vacation.  Both ways worked out well.
    
    -b
    

    
    	If your child is old enough to have his own seat, you might
    	want to consider bringing the car set right on the plane and
    	using it for your child.  A recent news magazine show that
    	dealt with plane crashes recommended it.
    
    	Karen
    

>>    	If your child is old enough to have his own seat,

Children are *always* old enough to have their own seats.  They may be young
enough so that they are not *required* to have their own seats, but you can
*always* buy a ticket for your child, bring an approved car seat on board, and
use it.  Occasionally, if the airplane is not full, you can get away with
"borrowing" an empty seat next to you for the car seat, but there are no
guarantees that one will be available.

						Brian

    The first time I flew with Sarah (she was almost 4 mos) I carried her
    in her infant seat.  I was lucky enough that the plane wasn't full (who
    goes to FLA in August?) and I moved to where I could buckle her car
    seat into the seat next to mine.
    
    The last time we rented a seat from the car rental agency, never again!
    I had them drag 3 seats out before I found one that was acceptable.  
    
    This time we're lucky in that my parents drove down to FLA last week
    (we're flying down on the 20th) and they brought their seats for the
    girls.  They'll meet us at the airport and we'll have seats we trust.
    If that weren't the case, we'd definitely check ours through.
    
    /Susan

    Another idea for a car seat is to use Midas Muffler.  They loan you a
    seat that you can return.  Ask your friends to find out about this.
    (I'm sure you have to give them a visa number or some money to ensure
    its return, but that may not be a problem.)
    
    judy

AAA also rents car seats, if you're a member.

I agree with .288 though, we always buy my son his own seat and bring his
car seat along.  You can ask if they have a discounted rate for kids.  I
happen to think it's worth the money for the peace of mind.

Just my opinion.

Lori

    When we traveled with our 3 month old, we took a stroller and a car
    seat.  The car seat fit into the stroller for 1 easy push everywhere.
    At check-in time, we pre-boarded and stowed both pieces of equipment
    in the overhead compartments.  Fellow passengers  were very helpful in
    assisting us in the retrieval of these items above their heads when 
    the jet parked at the gate.  
    
    At the worst, gate checking is a possibility if the overheads are full.  
    They will put your car seat in a plastic bag for protection if you ask.

       I have a question. What if you only have lap belts in your car's
        the rear seats? My son is in the Century Breverra booster seat now,
        using the booster seat's belt. But when he reaches 45 pounds the
        Century is supposed to be used with the vehicle's shoulder belt --
        you remove the booster's belt. You're never supposed to use the Century
        with a lap belt only. And the car manufacturer doesn't offer
        shoulder belts for this car.
    
        Has anyone else encountered this problem? What did  you do?
    
        Thanks.
    

    Hello,
    
      I was wondering when do you turn your infant's car seat so that
    it faces forward.  My son is 6 months and 17lbs.  I was thinking 
    of turning his car seat around.  It a pain in the butt with it 
    facing backwards and he kicks his feet against the back seat 
    pushing the seat into mine.  My husband says to wait till he's
    over 20 lbs. but I'd like to try it..Any comments/advice???
    
    thanks,
    Renee

What do the instructions say?

    re.294 -- i turned my kids around before 6 months for the same reason
    -- they were both too cramped -- neither was the suggested weight for
    front facing [my son didn't even hit 20 lbs till he was over 12 months
    old but he was tall].  

    
    Is it possible to put a car seat in the front seat of a car
    if it has a motorized shoulder belt?  There is no way to use a
    locking clip with this type of seat belt.  Is there a special
    attachment that the car manufacturer provides?  Or am I out of
    luck?
    
    thanks..........................beth

    I turned my son's car seat around when he was 6 months and around 17
    lbs, that was the minimun weight for forward facing according to my
    infant seat instructions.  We soon put him in the larger seat (that
    holds 6 to 40 lbs) and he was so much happier in that seat, he used to
    scream as soon as we put him in the infant seat, now he only cries if
    he's had a bad day!
    
    sandy

    
    	I read a 1992 report at the Doctor's office that recommended
    	a much longer wait before turning the kids around.  20
    	pounds is the limit of most infant carriers, but I believe most
    	of the larger seats can be faced backwards.  I know I turned
    	my kids at 6 months, 18 pounds, but this article was the first
    	I'd read that recommended rear-facing for at least twice that long.
    
    	A question - why do people with backseats continue to put
    	their kid's carseat in the front ?  I've seen folks with one
    	adult in the back, and the baby in the front passenger seat.
    	Isn't that the most dangerous seat?
    

    re: .297
    
    does the motorized belt include the lap part of the belt?  Usually
    just the should part is motorized (I hate those things).  My car
    is set up with the lap belt as manual, and the shoulder belt as
    automatic (motorized - so when the door shuts, it swings over you).
    However, the shoulder belt can be detached and you can just use
    the lap-section of the belt on a carseat (with mine anyway).  It
    even had a tag on the lap belt instructing how to use it with a 
    car seat... you pull it ALL THE WAY out and latch it through the 
    car seat, then pull it until it is tight.  This way is is locked
    and you can't get any slack.
    
    I don't think I've seen a car with both should and lap belt 
    being motorized, but then my car is a '91 so I'm sure they've
    changed.
    
    Julie
    

    I was guilty of putting the car seat in front.  My reasoning was this. 
    When they were in back I was constantly distracted by them.  Either
    trying to calm them, or entertain them, or hand the bottle back, or the
    toy back, or wipe their spit, or whatever.  So I was a MUCH safer
    driver with them beside me than with them behind me, and therefore less
    likely to be in an accident.

    Same here.  I did it only while my son was in his infant, rear-facing
    seat though.  As soon as he moved to his larger, front-facing seat (at
    about 7 months), I put him in the middle of the back seat.  If he
    whines for something, I just pull over - or he waits (if it's nothing
    too important and we aren't going very far).
    
    I felt more comfortable being able to see him when he was smaller and
    in the rear-facing seat.  
    
    ymmv
    
    julie
    

    Alex rode up front so I could be sure she wasn't choking.  She was a
    very gaggy baby, and even though the rearview mirror could "see" the
    center of the back seat, a view of the back of her infant carrier
    provided no information on whether she was still breathing :-)
    
    Leslie

    Driving long distances with the baby in the back seat drove me nuts
    when they were very small.  Carrie would just sleep which would
    eventually unnerve me, and Atlehi just plain hated riding in carseats
    until she was front facing.  (Count me as one of the guilty mom's who
    swaps the seats to front facing early)  I had over 5K miles to drive
    when she was between the ages of 6 months and 1 year schlepping her 
    older sister to her internship, from the internship and then home from
    college in VT.  she was/is  a lightweight but quite tall and even with
    the seat that is supposed to handle kids up to 50lbs, her feet were
    whacking the seat back from the age of 5 months on.  If I had just been
    running around town she might have stayed rear-facing longer, but when
    you are trying to get at least 2 hours in between stops and she won't
    tolerate facing backwards more than an hour without screaming for the
    next hour you have a problem that demands a solution.  
    
    I feel she and I were much safer with her facing forwards.  She didn't
    scream as much, I could see her in the rearview, and she quit puking
    after 4 hours in the car.  
    
    meg

    My front passenger-side air-bag keeps me honest. Evan rides in the back
    seat. I have a little mirror thingie that lets me see what he's up to
    while he faces back-wards.
    
    Rick's truck doesn't have a passenger-side air-bag. Evan has been
    riding up front with Rick for the last week or so because there is
    problem with the center-rear seat-belt which is scheduled to be fixed
    either tomorrow or next Tuesday.
    
    Evan's in need of a new seat, having exceeded the height recommendation
    for the seat he's in. [although he has a pound or two to go on the
    weight limit] The new one's on order. I can face him front a pound or
    two early or scrunch him.
    
    I will probably face him front.
    
      Annie

    
    re: .300
    
    The motorized belt is just the standard motorized shoulder belt.
    I'm pretty sure that pulling out the lap belt all the way does not
    lock it but I will give it a try just in case.  Has anyone else 
    heard of any solutions?
    
    thanks.....................beth
    

    
    re: .306  
    
    I thought the seat belt clip was used to make an effective 
    lock on the seat belt.    I pretty sure that's how we used
    it in one of our cars that has motorized shoulder belts.  
    
    Carol

    
    My car has a motorized shoulder belt with a manual lap belt. I
    disconnect the shoulder belt first. Then the lap belt gets pulled
    all the way out and I use a locking clip to keep it secure. I had
    to scour through my car's manual to determine how to do this. Check
    your manual for the proper installation.
    
    Patty

    Yes, your owner's manual should have some detailed instruction - if
    they don't, call the car manufacturer - quite frankly you are talking
    about your child's life here.
    
    Regarding an earlier question regarding when to turn a rear seat
    forward, the latest word is to wait until the child is a year old or at
    least 20 pounds.  This is because of the immature strength of the
    child's spinal column.
    
    My last comment - in my older car, I always kept the car seat in the
    front seat, however since my current car has front and side airbags for
    the front seat.  The safest spot is the middle back seat.  I though my
    daughter would resist being in the backseat by herself but she loves it
    and is less bothered by the sun shining in.  I am able to tilt my
    vanity mirror to keep and eye on her.  I think she has a better range
    of vision as well.
    
    Nancy  
                      

re .293

Our kids are out of car seats, but mainly ride in the back seat anyway.  One of
our cars only had lap belts in the rear (1971 vehicle) so I bought a generic 3
point retractable belt for each side, welded in a few nuts to mount the holders
and retractors and installed them...

Depending on the car, this could be a fairly simple modification, but access to
a welder (or a weldor) makes it easy.

Dave

    re rear-facing/front-facing seats
    
    This problem hit us when James was six months old and reached the top
    weight for his infant seat (part of the Silver Cross combination pram
    system). 
    
    I phoned our Paediatrician at the Hospital in Fontainebleau who told me
    that he strongly recommends that all babies remain rear-facing until
    they are twelve months old. However, he recognises that car seat
    manufacturers don't follow this, and that parents also want to see
    their children. His bottom-line advice was that a child should remain
    rear-facing until he can sit up totally unsupported - this is because
    the spine is still supple, and sitting forward-facing can put pressure
    on the base of the spine.
    
    Because I felt happier with buying a seat made by a company in car
    safety rather than manufacturing prams, I phoned Britax in the UK (I'm
    in France, but a Brit.) and spent quite a long time discussing the
    problem with their car seat advisor, and chose their Club Class seat,
    because it could be used both ways. The Britax advisor also talked me
    through the pros and cons of fitting different models of seats into
    different cars - something I'd not thought of, but apparently there are
    some vehicles which are a child car seat manufacturer's nightmare!
    
    There's also a Child Car Safety Advisory Centre in Milton Keynes (also
    UK) which is very helpful.
    
    In Sweden, the rule is that all children have to be rear-facing until
    they're eighteen months old. But they also have the seats made to meet
    this regulation. For what it's worth, Britax make the Club Class to the
    Swedish standard, but for export to Sweden only. The Car Safety
    Advisory Centre reimports the same seat into Britain for children with
    special needs, and the price is more than double the standard Club
    Class seat!
    
    The Club Class has its own harness, with the nice feature of being
    (relatively) easily adjustable. It's a nice seat, and James seems very
    comfortable in it. The only drawback is that it's a bit of a pain to
    fit, so not the seat to choose if you're swopping between cars. 
    
    As a second seat, we bought the Super Cruiser, also Britax. This is
    forward-facing only, and uses the car's own seat belt. It's easily
    movable between cars. 
    
    For any UK readers, I'll try and remember to post the numbers of both
    helplines. Britax get a big vote from me for helpfulness - especially
    when I'd mislaid fitting instructions for the Super Cruiser: the
    relative pages arrived by fax the same afternoon, and the complete
    hard-copy booklet by post two days later. That's service!
    
    Jacquie
    

	I turned my son's car seat around when he was tall enough that his 
	feet jammed the seat back.  He was a bit young, but tall.  There
	were several benefits from this, and I was able to adjust his car
	seat to the most reclining position which eased any possible pressure
	on his spine.  The biggest benefit was that he stopped barfing all 
	over the car.  Up until that point he barfed EVERY TIME he road in the
	car, short ride or long!  The other benefit is that I could see him,
	which made me a safer driver.  Our doctor did not seem to think it
	was a big problem, he said the ages and weights were a general guide-
	line and comfort and drivers safety have to count as well.

	My son is now four, and quite active.  Although NH law says he may now 
	ride in only a seatbelt, we continue to keep him in a car seat.  He
	is too willing and able to unbuckle a seat belt or booster seat.  I
	will keep him in one until he is physically too big to fit.  He doesn't
	seem to mind and he has a better view of the world from his carseat.

    I read in some consumer column that kids should stay in some type of
    car seat or booster until they weigh 70 pounds!  Has anyone else heard
    this?  My daughter is 5-1/2 and doesn't even weigh 40 pounds yet.  At
    this rate, she'll be 12 before she weighs 70.
    
    I gotta wonder if the 70 was a typo...
    
    judy

    I've never read it or seen it, but it sort of makes sense.  Chris is
    10, weighs 55 pounds, is about 55" tall, and is still too short for a
    regular (shoulder) seat belt.  A booster seat would fix that problem.
    But, you'd never catch him in a booster seat either!!!  (-:  Aside from
    the fact that I think that most of them are only rated to 60 lbs
    anyway, he'd look pretty silly trying to get in/out of it. 
    

I'd guess it's a typo, because some states (FL, MA?, NH) require
a carseat of some type until the kid is 5 years old.  After that,
a seatbelt is enough.

Elise is tall for a 5 year old and is uncomfortable with only a
seatbelt, altho we do this when our timing is off.  I'm thinking
of getting some climbing webbing (a thick nylon strip in various
widths) and sewing velcro on it so we can compress the shoulder
strap down a bit (wrap the climbing webbing around the lapbelt 
and the shouldler harness, pulling it away from her neck).

Of course, she would then whine that she can't see out the window.


Pat

    There is a company, (don't remember who) that makes a belt adjuster for
    short people.  Short is apparently anything below 5'10" in some cars I
    have had the "privelege" to ride in. 
    
    meg

    re seatbelt adjusters:
    
    I tries the nylon webbing (homemade) adjusters with not much success. 
    They kept slipping.  I picked up some heavy rubber and velcro adjusters
    at Boscov's (don't know is this is a local store or not) for $5.00 a
    piece.  It does the same thing as my version, but doesn't slip.  I used
    them for the truck (for me) as I got tired of being choked by the
    seatbelt.  
    
    I just bought a new car and it has adjusting seatbelts.  I took Deena
    (7yrs) out shopping on friday and the lowest position was perfect for
    her.  I had to keep reminding her to use the shoulder strap in front of
    her though.  Some habits are hard to break!
    
    If you decide to go with the homemade version, you may want to put
    something on the inside of the webbing to prevent slipping.  Perhaps
    some of that slick fabric paint?
    
    Good luck
    

    Most car dealers should be able to provide the seatbelt extender -- I got
    one for me [I have a Sable wagon] because the belt cuts right
    underneath my chin when I'm not in my winter coat.
    
    	As far as a carseat for the child, a Kangaroo booster seat might be
    your answer.  They look like an armchair, but will only work with a
    shoulder harness.  I used one for my now 8-yr old until last summer
    when she just got a bit too tall.  They're rated thru 70 pounds. 
    What's nice is that it keeps the seatbelt where it should be [not on
    the neck area], plus the kids can sleep in them.  They run about $90
    new, but often you can find used ones [that's how I got mine; it's gone
    now].
    
    My son still insists on some sort of booster [and he's 12!but short] only
    because we won't allow him to sit on his legs in the back seat. He's
    been using the bottom of a booster seat, the bar broke off ages ago.
    He's finally now almost tall enough to see out comfortably, so
    hopefully that piece of apparatus will disappear from our long car
    trips as well.  He uses my seatbelt extender when we 'forget' the
    booster bottom and that solves the problem of the belt across the neck.
    
    sandy

    I second the Kangaroo seat, we have one for Sarah and she loves it.
    
    I like that it's very light weight, ie, easy to move between cars, but
    sturdy.  You MUST use it with a lap/shoulder belt combination.
    
    New ones go for between $65-$75 (the $65 was at the Right Start store
    in Natick on sale).  We paid $70 at The Baby Place in Natick last May.
    All in all, I don't think it's that much more expensive than a good
    booster seat, ~$40, plus the head support surround you buy to keep
    their head up when they fall asleep, ~$25.  The Kangaroo seat is also
    all one piece.
    
    They are made right here in MA, I think in Concord.
    
    /Susan

    
    I live in NH and occasionally will have a chance to drive around with
    my 3 1/2 yr old grandson.  However, I have no car seat yet.  Can
    someone fill me in on what I need to acquire to meet the NH
    requirements?  In reading this string, I see that forward facing
    is a good choice for this age but I find myself at a loss when reading
    some of the notes discussing various shapes/options.
    
    any help gratefully accepted.
    carol

Find out what type of car seat he's usually in.  A 3.5 year old will probably
have a preference.

    
    He's in one of those car seats that are built into the seat of the 
    van.   I can't duplicate that or share it even. 
    
    thanks for any input
    
    

So what type of carseat is that?  Does it have a bar across the front, a
Y-shaped piece that snaps into a socket between the legs, or is it a five-
point style?

    
    oh I get it... clearly I don't have enough information to ask the 
    question.  will write again when I know more.

    
    I don't know if I'd agree that you don't have enough information.
    
    You probably need to know the weight and height of your child. 
    I *think* that most toddler car seats are good for children 
    up to 40lbs.  If your grandson is at or near that weight, you
    might need to look into some sort of booster seat.  If he
    isn't, then I think it would probably be a pretty safe bet
    to go with one of T-shield type car seats (Fisher-Price definitely
    makes one, probably others as well).   These seem to be the most
    flexible and popular with the parents that I know.   I think that 
    a car seat that has a bar that swings over the child's head can 
    be a problem when kids get bigger -  so I'd stay away from those.  
    
    It seems like someone is always selling used car seats either
    in Parenting of Classified_ads.  You should be able to pick
    up something in reasonably good condition for $25-30 bucks.
    Were it me, I don't think that I'd pay retail for a car seat
    that is going to be used as little as your note implies.
    
    Carol

    
    re -1
          
    I seem to remember when we purchased ours for Kathryn (5 years ago) that 
    there was a leaflet in the box which said if you were in a car accident 
    and kiddie seats were in use, then their strength and resistancy to 
    further impact could be reduced.  
    
    Now, could just be a marketing ploy, but I would want to take the risk,
    so would not buy a 2nd hand car seat without knowing its history.
    
    Jackie

    
    	I cannot locate the instructions to our new Gerry
    	Booster Seat.  I would like to switch the shield on
    	my daughter's seat from closing on the right to closing
    	on the left, but I can't see how to remove the shield.
    	
    	If any noter can remember how to do this, could you please
    	let me know ?
    
    	thanks!
    	Karen
    
    	CNTROL::JENNISON