Conference moira::parenting

	We did this successfully on a weekend away at a hotel/guest house.

	We went down to the restaurant for dinner, taking a radio-type
	monitor with us. I put a wristwatch next to the baby-end so I knew
	the link was working!

	Richard.

    I've done this - we were working at a summer camp and we brought a
    babysitter with us.  At night while the kids (age 1 & 3) were asleep we
    were in the kitchen about 70 yards away with the monitor.  I was
    surprised it worked so well - we even heard the kids snore!  Keep in
    mind this was in the back woods of Maine - there was NO fear of
    tresspassers.
    
    Also when my oldest was about 12 months we were in a hotel and had a
    poolside room.  We locked and secured the inside door and met with
    friends at the outdoor pool - also using the monitor.
    
    Just do a double check to make sure the stove is off, the toilet
    stopped running, the coffee pot is off, etc.  I personally am not an
    over-paranoid parent - but I do rely heavily on my gut instinct!  So
    far it's worked well for me.  Remember to keep checking every so often
    so that you are comfortable.
    
    -sandy
    

    Was there any concern over you child/children being scared because
    you weren't in the house?  How did you handle communicating to them
    that you would be next door?  Our children usually play in their cribs
    for half-an-hour before falling asleep.  Should we wait until they are
    asleep before leaving?  As you can tell, I'm a little nervous about
    this but I see nothing wrong or dangerous about it!
    
    Jennifer
    

    
    I think I would feel better if I knew they were asleep and knew they
    wouldn't be listening for idle chatter in the other room...
    (maybe leave the TV on so they don't hear total silence..?)
    
    Monitors are great! And so high tech too, its amazing how much you can
    hear on them!
    
    Chris
    

    	You have obviously not been watching Rescue 911. If you watch that
    show you would know that if you even dare to blink while you have the
    responsibility for a child that something will happen.

    	let's see, based on that show, Spencer;

    	will never be near a school bus
    	will never be near a pool
    	will never be near a plate glass window
    	will never be in a car
    	will never be allowed to eat solid food

    			;-)

    	Your proposal sounds like a reasonable request to me, and if I were
    in your shoes, I would probably do the same.

    				Wendy

    I've done this, while going to a party at our neighbors' upstairs.
    First we did a test to make sure the monitor would send/receive
    between the two apartments. Then we made sure someone was near the
    monitor all the time and that party noise didn't drown out any baby
    noises. It worked fine.
    
    Naturally, being the cautious types, one of us would go down and
    check the kids every hour or so anyway. 
    
    Lucy

     Assuming you mean that you live in the same building, in an adjacent
apartment, I'd say go ahead, with a few precautions.
     If the gathering is going to be noisy, make sure that one of you is
near the monitor at all times.  Don't put it down and rely on other
partygoers -- it's possible that something might get put on top of it, or it
might get turned off, or something like that.
     If you lock your door (I'd recommend it if there are a lot of people
coming and going) make sure that both of you have a key, and make sure you
keep it with you, so that you can get in the door quickly in case of
emergency.
     Make sure your smoke detectors are in working order.
     I really like the idea of leaving the TV on.  Not only does it provide
the background noise, but it also serves the purpose of .1 clock -- if you
can hear the TV on the monitor, you know it's working.

Clay

    One of the notes a few back made the comment that you sure can hear
    alot on the monitors.  
    
    I found this out one morning when I had turned off the one is Stephen's
    room and was walking into my room to turn mine off.  I heard a baby
    crying and a women yelling at another child.  When she said the child's
    name, I recognized her as the women about 3 houses down.  She is always
    outside yelling at this kid, I am sure everyone in the neighborhood
    knows his name.  Anyway, I could hear all this plus the husband came in
    and was telling the wife to stop yelling.  All this in a 1-2 minute
    period. It made me glad I didn't live in that house. 
     
    So, when I go in to get Stephen in the mornings, the first thing I do is
    turn it off.  Someone could listen to everything going on in your home
    on one of thoses things.
    
    You sure won't have any trouble hearing everything in your home from
    down the hall.  If you feel comfortable with the idea, go for it.
    
    Kathy

    
    More on how much you can hear on Monitors:
    
    Have you noticed that most monitors have 2 channels? I found out why.
    One night I was awakened by a baby crying, and while coming out of a
    deep sleep to listen more clearly, I realised it was not my son! It 
    was a brand new infant type of cry. And after checking on my son
    anyways, I spoke to my husband about it, and we realised:
    
    The pregnant woman across the street must have had her baby!!! And was
    on the same "wavelength"!
    
    We couldn't hear alot more than the babys cries tho. Needless to say,
    we just changed the channel, and all was well.
    
    Chris
    

    One blistering hot summer night a couple of years ago, my two-doors-
    up neighbor invited me to go swimming in their pool.  I can see
    their backyard from my backyard, and vice versa.  Our son was sound
    asleep in his crib, so I locked up the house and went on up.  It
    wasn't till my neighbor asked me, "Where's James" that I realized
    that I should have at least brought the monitor with me.  I just
    didn't think to do it, especially as I can see our house from
    theirs.  So needless to say, I kind of left the pool party under
    a cloud of disapproval -- you know what I mean....nobody said anything,
    but they didn't need to, I could tell they thought I was being
    neglectful.  
    
    If one of you is going to stay near the monitor at all times, and
    it's an apartment in the same building, then I think you should
    be OK.  I'd leave after the kids are sound asleep, though,and would
    take extra precautions as noted in a previous note -- doors locked,
    toilet lid closed, stove/coffee pot off, hairdryers/hot rollers
    unplugged, etc., etc.  Maybe check the cribs, too, just to be on
    the safe side.

	A question was asked in either the November or December
	Parents' magazine that was similar to the one here.

	A woman's husband felt it was ok to leave his sleeping baby
	in a locked apartment while he went downstairs to do laundry
	for 10-20 minutes.  The wife did not feel it was ok.

	Parents' magazine agreed with the wife, saying that the most
	important reason for being in the apartment with the baby was
	to help it to safety in the event of fire or other catastrophe.

	FWIW,
	Karen

    I use the monitor to let Ilona finish her nap in the car when she falls
    asleep on the way home.
    
    I park the car right next to the house where there is an outside
    outlet.  (How nice to be married to an electrician.)  In rainy weather
    (not so far) I'd insert batteries into the monitor.  Anyway, I plug it
    in and put it in the car, then take the listening unit with me in the
    house.  I lock the car doors.
    
    With winter coming, I can't leave her out there for long.  I worry that
    the temperature will drop too much.
    
    L

re: .12

Of course, you'd want to be careful of where you park it and/or provide 
ventilation, since a car can overheat quickly in the sun, even in cold 
weather.

Clay

    How do you thread the cord out of the car?
    
    Leslie

>    How do you thread the cord out of the car?
    
     Crack the window.    

    I just close the door on the cord which is very narrow.  The door has a
    plastic gasket and a narrow crack between the sheet metal panels.
    
    As Clay mentioned, if developing heat is a concern, crack a window. 
    But I can't run the cord out the window and hope to reach the outlet.
    
    The driveway is on the north side of our house so heat is not a
    consideration most of the year.  It's out of direct sunlight.  Chilling
    is much more of a concern.
    
    I also race out there as soon as she awakens because she gets upset
    about being abandoned out in the car.  If I get there while she's still
    groggy, she's ok about it.
    
    L
    

    I really do not believe I am reading this - you leave your baby in the
    car???  
    
    What if something happend - the handbrake slipped, or someone crashed
    into the car whilst parked.
    
    Sorry I disagree with everyone in this note, I would never leave my son
    alone in my house or apartment, and never, never, never in my car.

    RE:  -1
    
    
    We live on a dead-end street in a quiet suburban neighborhood.  The
    only times I've left her in the car were when the car is parked in our
    driveway at home, right next to the house, and too far from the street
    for anyone to see that she is even in there.
    
    Nobody'd crash into the car unless they started drag racing in our
    driveway.
    
    The car won't roll because it is in park and the whole area is level.
    
    Everybody's sense of safety is different.  I respect your feelings.
    
    L

    I leave my kids sleeping in the car all the time -- that is,
    when the car is in the driveway behind the house, the weather
    is warm (for comfort, and so all windows are open so I can 
    hear and see them well), and I am close by. Such practices have
    ended for this year, alas; too cold now!
    
    Lucy

    I don't write into this notes file to offen, but this note really
    caught my eye. ...   We were invited over to our next door neighbors
    house for dinner, and my son (19 months old) goes to bed at 7:30 and we
    considered using the monitor that night.  But, at the last minute I had
    second thoughts (called the babysitter).   My concern was a FIRE, even
    though we have smoke dectectors, fires spread fast.. and smoke is very
    life threating to a little one.  I figure that I would smell something
    or see something before the dectectors go off, and would have that much
    more time to react, but having to run over when I heard the smoke
    dectector.....
      
    Call me paranod..
    Alice 

    One reason why I am so paranoid about this subject is that very
    recently there was a case in the papers and news on TV of a family that
    left their baby in their van outside their house asleep (not wanting to
    disturb her after a shopping trip).
    
    Tragedy struck - the van caught fire and exploded whilst she was still
    inside.  

    The times I have let my son sleep in the car, I stay in the car too.
    Why are we all in such a hurry? The chores can wait. I have my wife get
    a magazine or the paper and read while he sleeps.
    
    Or if they are that tired, they will tolerate the move out of the car
    into their bed.
    
    We also noticed that the monitor would also shut down sometimes
    without knowing it - perhaps interference or something.
    
    To each his own.
    
    FWIW,
    JR

    Though this note has caught me off guard, and I saw it the day it was
    posted, I have been hesitant to reply based on all the positive
    responses.  I too, could never leave my child unattended in a vehicle
    or in an apartment, house or whatever.   If my son is sleeping in the
    car when we arrive at home, he gets taken into the house and laid down.
    Sometimes he stays asleep, sometimes he's up for a while, but at least
    I know that he is safe.  I personally would never leave my children at
    home without a babysitter, I think it's called common sense, the
    childrens well being and my not having to be worried sick and not be
    able to have a good time.  To each his own, but to me my children and
    their safety come first.
    
    Von

    
    To me the set up seems safe. The parents will be in the apartment
    next door and will have the monitor. They will probably be closer
    to their children than I am to my child when I am at my mothers.
    My mother has a 2 story home with a full basement where the TV room
    is. When I put my daughter to bed (on the top floor) I go back down
    to the TV room. There is now a whole floor and 2 flights of stairs
    between us. I really don't see what the difference is here. They, as
    I, are in the same building. They could probably get to their kids
    quicker than I could. Do I feel I need to sit in the next room
    with my child at my mother's...no. I feel very comfortable being
    downstairs. Once I know she is good and asleep I turn off the monitor
    except for occasional checks. Now in Jen's case I would definitely
    keep the monitor on at all times and with me, but I would not have
    any qualms about going next door, in the same building. Just my
    thoughts on the matter.
    
    Patty
    
    P.S. Hi Jen!!!

All the positive responses caught me by surprise, too.  I would never
leave my child alone at home or in a car.  It's not worth the one-in-a-million 
chance.  

It's also not worth the possible neglect charges that can be brought
against parents whos' child/children get exposed to dangers, real or perceived,
due to lack of proper supervision.  

If you choose to do this, make sure you understand your state/country
laws on child neglect before you leave your child unattended.  

    Just curious - to the author of .25
    
    If you let your 5-year-old play in your back yard while you watch her
    out the window, do you feel she is being neglected?  
    
    There are always terrible things that can happen - that doesn't mean
    they will. 
    
    Lucy

    Count me as another nay-sayer.  
    
    A monitor only replaces a parent's (or babysitter's) sense of hearing.
    It does not replace their sense of sight or smell.  Something could go 
    wrong that you would have seen or smelled before you would have heard
    it, or heard it on the monitor.
    
    

	For .26:

	My reply (.25) was in response to the original note and other
	responses regarding leaving a child in one apartment/home alone while
	the parents were in another with a monitor and leaving a child
	alone in a car.  I shared my personal opinion of choosing not to
	do this and also shared a 'potential' problem with these scenarios. 

	Whether or not I consider any of these practices neglectful doesn't 
	matter. If the state she lives in does consider either one of these 
	scenarios neglectful and someone (say an unfriendly or concerned 
	neighbor) wishes to start something, she can 'potentially' be in deep 
	water.  

	Deanna

    Deanna,
    
    I certainly respect your own practice of never leaving your child
    unattended. My question in .26 was intended to explore that gray area 
    where we parents can/might let go of worrying about that "one-in-a-
    million" chance of something happening, and making reasonable decisions 
    based on experience. I make my decision to leave my kids in the car 
    based on a blend of caution and common sense. I would rather watch my
    through the open window as she sleeps in the car ten feet away, while
    I unpack the groceries in peace, than have her wake up cranky from a
    too-short nap.
    
    As for the neglect issue, I personally don't base my childcare 
    practices and decisions on what other people may think about them, at
    least I try not to. I do understand the concern you raise. When we
    "Ferberized" our kids it occurred to me that neighbors could wonder why
    all the crying. When my son screams bloody murder during a shampoo, I
    wonder what they think upstairs. But I try not to let that interfere 
    with my everyday life.
    
    Lucy                  

re: .30

     To me, the clarification in .28 says that taking this particular "one in
a million" chance isn't worth it TO HER.  While that's not my position, it
seems reasonable to me.
     As for the "neglect" statement, I don't think she was saying that it
matters what the neighbors think.  I think she says that it matters what the
AUTHORITIES think.   In some states there may be regulations that say leaving
a child alone under age x is per se neglectful; and if that's the case, it
won't just be a matter of what the neighbors think, it could also represent a
nightmarish, not to mention expensive and time consuming, experience for the
parents, defending themselves against the state.  Once again, not my
position, but I think a reasonable one.

Clay, the noter

     This appears to be a topic on which some people have strong opinions. 
IMO, the entries so far have stated personal opinions, but have avoided
judgments.  Let's please keep it that way.  Also, I'm glad that the "nay-
sayers" weren't dissuaded by the initial positive response.  If parenting
were easy, this notesfile wouldn't be necessary.  If we all though alike,
then it wold be boring.  Let's keep it interesting, but civil.

Clay, the moderator

It is all a matter of acceptable risk ...

Take the van explosion ... it could have exploded a few minutes earlier
with mother and child in it, taking both lives and nothing could be done.
Let's face it vehicles do not normally blow up!

I live in a bungalow.  Our youngest had a bedroom at the end of the
bedroom hallway.  If a fire started in any of the rooms down that hallway,
there is likely NO chance I could have got there without going outside
and breaking the window ... and that might be questionable.

To be perfectly honest, I see far greater risks than the ones outlined here
by taking your child out IN A VEHICLE on the road. FAR greater risks.  I
see far greater risks of baby choking on food.  I see far greater risks
of a toddler falling and cracking his / her skull wide open.

For those that mentioned neglect ... what is negligence ?  You can be
at home with your child in plain view and be negligent.  All to often
I've seen some poor kiddy toddling around with a superduper absorbent
superdisposable diaper hanging like a trash can halfway off.  That's
negligence.  I've seen hundreds of households where pot handles stick
out over the edge of the stove within reach of toddler hands with mummy
right there but busy, just waiting for a scalding accident to happen.
That's negligence.

In these cases, the parent has taken REASONABLE steps to ensure their
child's safety, through the use of a monitor.  As long as you've taken
reasonable steps, unless you've allowed your child to be in a known
dangerous situation, then, I don't think you can say you 've been
negligent.

Stuart

    Speaking of the law:

    Here in Texas I read about a women who was put in jail last summer for
    leaving her 10 month old in the car with the engine running.  She had
    ran in 7Eleven to get a newspaper.  A police car happened to pull up
    while she was in the store, saw the baby unattended and dragged the
    mother to jail no questions asked.  

    I also remember reading a few years ago (again in Texas) about a man who 
    had his children in the back of this pickup.  The truck was hit and went 
    into a spin, the kids were thrown from the truck and all killed.  They 
    ranged from 6-7 to 2 and a half in age.  He was put in jail for having
    the kids in the back of the truck.

    What gets me really angry is seeing someone just holding an infant while 
    in the car, or children with out seatbelts on, roaming around the car.  
    IMO that is neglect and an unacceptable risk.

    RE: leaving kids in driveway to finish their naps:

    I personally wouldn't leave my son in the car after returning home, 
    but then he is a deep sleeper and moving him doesn't disturb his sleep
    any.  I feel safer knowing he is in the house with me.

    RE: going to a neighbors apartment w/monitor:

    I don't see anything wrong with that provided that they check on the
    kids often and have the monitor with them at all times.

    Kathy

>    Here in Texas I read about a women who was put in jail last summer for
>    leaving her 10 month old in the car with the engine running.  She had
>    ran in 7Eleven to get a newspaper.  A police car happened to pull up
>    while she was in the store, saw the baby unattended and dragged the
>    mother to jail no questions asked.  

    Well, this looks like an over-zealous police officer.  While it was
    poor judgement on the part of the mother to leave the engine running,
    it certainly wasn't what I'd call negligent to leave the child in the
    car.  Personally, I'd lock the car and turn the engine off, and ensure
    that it is visible from the location.
    
>    I also remember reading a few years ago (again in Texas) about a man who 
>    had his children in the back of this pickup.  The truck was hit and went 
>    into a spin, the kids were thrown from the truck and all killed.  They 
>    ranged from 6-7 to 2 and a half in age.  He was put in jail for having
>    the kids in the back of the truck.

    IMO, this is clearly negligent ... this is worse than no seat belts.
    
>    What gets me really angry is seeing someone just holding an infant while 
>    in the car, or children with out seatbelts on, roaming around the car.  
>    IMO that is neglect and an unacceptable risk.

    Again ... negligent.
    

    Stuart

    I too hesitated to respond to the note when I first saw it.
    Honestly:
    I am not being judgemental when I say that I had not even THOUGHT to
    leave the baby in the car. It would be something totally out of the 
    realm of my consideration. What is so terrible about waking the child
    and bringing them into the house? Face it, its not a matter of whether
    or not you are very near the child or not, its where the child is more
    secure.
    
    Cars ARE less secure. A good friend of mine had a new car TOTALLED
    while parked high up a long driveway at a friend's place when a man
    drove his car, out of control up the lawn and hit it.
    I also mentioned some time back the story of a woman in Edmonton who
    ran into a store leaving her child asleep in a parked and locked car.
    The car was stollen and found hundreds of miles away with baby still
    in it. 
    
    I am not saying that decisions of this kind should be made on the 
    basis of anicdotal evidence, but doesn't hearing these stories 
    frighten you? Sure does that to me.
    
    Again, the decision AND the judgement has to be yours. Only the 
    parent can judge the risks we take every single day with our kids
    (even in driving with them in our cars, carrying them, etc). Its 
    up to you. 
    
    Monica

>    Cars ARE less secure. A good friend of mine had a new car TOTALLED
>    while parked high up a long driveway at a friend's place when a man
>    drove his car, out of control up the lawn and hit it.
...
>    I am not saying that decisions of this kind should be made on the 
>    basis of anicdotal evidence, but doesn't hearing these stories 
>    frighten you? Sure does that to me.
    
    Sure, it's frightening; but is it relevant?  Suppose a child had
    been playing outside in the lawn?  For that matter, you occasionally
    read about someone who loses control of their car and drives into
    someone else's bedroom, so the child in the crib may be no safer
    than the child in the car!
    
    The only real message of these freak horror stories is that there is
    no perfect safety -- that there is always a one-in-a-million
    disaster that *could* happen.  I think that trying to organize one's
    life around protecting against the one-in-a-million chances is a
    plan for madness, not for safety.
    
    	-Neil

	There seems to be another possible question/topic that has
	arisen from this particular note.  It has to do with how
	much concern and worry is just plain too much.  This may
	not be the place for this response but I thought I'd share
	my perspective on where I draw the line in order to maintain
	my own sanity :)

	Agreed that it is a once-in-a-million chance that the car could get
	stolen, that the baby could get abducted, that the car could
	roll, that the car could explode, etc...  My view, however, is
	that I have COMPLETE control over this once-in-a-million chance.  
	If something should happen while my two year old daughter were in 
	the car and I weren't, I could never live with myself knowing that 
	it was a bad choice on my part and that my daughter would have been 
	safe had I taken her with me :(

	As far as leaving a young child home alone with monitor while in the
	next home/apartment.  I use the same philosophy.  If that once-
	in-a-million chance of something going wrong happens that could
	have been avoided had I or someone been there, I couldn't live
	with myself :(  

	Now, if I or another responsible adult/sitter is at home, in a car, 
	in a plane, on a boat, etc... and something goes wrong that endangers 
	the safety of my child, I do the best I can do and will live with 
	whatever the outcome is (to me this is life and there are no 
	guarantees).  I choose to avoid	the above two scenarios because they 
	are in my COMPLETE control.  For all other situations, I do the best 
	I can do to minimize risks.

	This certainly isn't the philosophy for everyone but it works
	for me.  I know exactly where I draw the line and work, to the
	best of my ability, within the boundaries I consider acceptable.
	It minimizes the worry for me so that I can enjoy life with my 
	beautiful little girl who will, amazingly enough, be two years old 
	on December 7 - Pearl Harbor Day.  And yes, what a day it was!  :)

	Deanna

    While it makes sense to consider your own control in a situation
    as being a determining factor as to whether to accept a risk or
    not, it is important to consider the degree of risk.
    
    The risk of a car losing control, entering your drive and smashing
    into your car is about the same as it smashing into your house.  In
    either case it could injure your child ... in either case, there
    is nothing you can do about it.
    
    There are so many million to one type risks to avoid that you really
    need to concern yourself with the significant risks.  Give the risks
    a priority.  Now some people are going to give not leaving a child
    alone under conditions we've described a very high priority ... but
    recognize that some people are willing to take million to one risks
    and they really shouldn't be punished for doing so.  Taking hundred
    to one risks on the other hand is another matter altogether.
    
    Stuart

    There is yet another element to the risk vs protection issue. Parents
    have to consider how their children of toddler age and older learn to
    assess risk on their own, and how they relate in general to the world
    at large.  Parents who are extremely protective run the risk of raising
    children who learn to mistrust their naturally adventurous nature
    (physically and intellectually).
    
    Incidentally, I am not suggesting that the parents who oppose the
    "monitor solution" here are in that category of those who can injure
    their children by the kind of paranoia engendered by tabloid journalism
    (electronic or print).  Although I side with those using the monitor, I
    think the opponents make reasonable and compelling arguments against
    against its use.
    
    Kit

    In the situation described in .0, the monitor is being used as a 
    replacement for a person; perhaps as a convenience or money saver.
    I would not make decisions of this nature (human life is involved)
    primarily based on convenience or saving money.
    
    Do you have babysitting co-ops where you live ? In Colorado Springs, 
    neighborhoods form co-ops and trade time.  I highly recommend this
    option to a baby monitor.

    Just had to add some more $.02....
    
    First, one previous reply suggested ranking the risks, making the 1 in
    100 risks a higher priority than the 1 in 1,000,000 risks.  Well,
    normally I'm a very analytical person, too, and I tend to equate everything
    to numbers, but not in this case.  I don't think you can make decisions
    based on mathmatical odds when the life of your child may be at risk. 
    We're not playing poker here.
    
    Other previous replys have said that a car could just as easily crash
    into a house and the child's bed/crib as it could the car parked in the
    driveway.  Well, yes, but there's something about being in a parked car
    in the driveway that makes the child seem so exposed and trapped.  I 
    admit that this is just an emotional response to seeing a child left
    alone in a car, but I think many people share this reaction.  
      
    Other previous replys have compared some of the discussed scenarios
    with letting a 5 year old play alone in the backyard.  However, I don't
    believe this is a fair comparison.  A 5 year old playing in the
    backyard is 1) awake, so he can call or cry out if something goes
    wrong, and 2) not trapped, such as in a car, so he can run to Mom or
    a neighbor for help if he needs it.  This is very different from the
    discussion of leaving an infant or toddler asleep in a car or alone in
    an apartment.
    
    I fully agree with -40 who noticed that some parents are making some of
    these decisions based on their own convenience or entertainment, or to
    save money.  It is more convenient to let the child continue sleeping
    in the car, it is cheaper to use a monitor than to hire a sitter, it is
    more fun to go to a party than stay home if you can't get a sitter.  
    Hmmmmm.....  
    

    >I fully agree with -40 who noticed that some parents are making some of
    >these decisions based on their own convenience or entertainment, or to
    >save money.  It is more convenient to let the child continue sleeping
    >in the car, it is cheaper to use a monitor than to hire a sitter, it is
    >more fun to go to a party than stay home if you can't get a sitter.  
    >Hmmmmm.....  
    
    I almost take offense to this.  It is making a very unfair value
    judgement.  I know a lot of homes where people cannot hear children
    in their bedrooms because of TV / Radio / Music and so on ... and
    this in days before baby monitors too.  Were they considered neglectful
    of their children for their own entertainment ?
    
    The letting a child sleep in a car is more than convenience to the
    parent ... some children can be bears with sore-heads if awakened
    from a nap.  Who is the one doing a favour for who here ?
    
    
    You said in your response "We're not playing poker here."  Think about
    it ... we expose our children daily to higher risk activities (both
    in chance of occurance and outcome ... both of these must be a part
    of the risk factor) than for example leaving them in an adjoining
    apartment with a baby monitor.  The ONLY difference here, is that
    the higher risk activities that we expose our children to daily are
    those that we have grown accustomed to and we treat in a more "blase"
    manner.  The lesser percentage risks that we are not accustomed to
    we have a greater fear of and so make an emotional decision.
    
    Leaving our children out of it, take as an example flying ...
    Many people given the opportunity to fly or drive will drive, because
    they are afraid of flying because primarily, it is something they
    rarely do.  A lot of people think about the possibility of a plane
    crash when they fly, but rarely do they think about having an
    accident when they drive!  Statistically, the odds of injury or
    death from a plane trip are hands down lower than when driving,
    either on a per trip or per passenger mile.
    
    We are "comfortable" with the risks of driving, but not with flying.
    
    Why shouldn't you use mathematical odds to make decisions ?  After
    all, it IS a life we are talking about here !  
    
    Stuart

    I guess I think of the "if only" rule. And, still wonder why people are
    so rushed/tied to schedules that they get into these unfortunate
    choices.
    
    If something happened (no matter the odds) how would I feel/live with
    it?
    
    Example based on some of the situations posed so far:
    
    If my child is sleeping in the car, and some drunk driver somehow
    travels down the driveway and smashes into the car - I would say to
    myself the rest of my life "if only I had taken him inside".
    
    The "if only" has a *reasonable* answer - so I don't do it.
    
    If my child is playing in the yard and a drunk driver comes down the
    driveway and over the lawn and hits him - I would not say "if only I
    never let my child play outside"
    
    The "if only" does not have a *reasonable* answer.
    
    I know reasonable is different for everyone, and can understand other's
    decisions. I just keep playing the "if only" scenario.
    
    Again, each his own! Just my thoughts....
    
    JR

    Judgement of the parent is also tempered by experience. Even those
    who may consider the risks analytically under normal circumstances,
    may make a decision that some might consider over-doing the mothering
    at best, and irrational at worst. 
    As our every present example - if parent had child killed or injured as 
    a result of our hypothetical drunk driver racing into the back yard and 
    hitting him, don't you think that when another of that parent's
    children is put into the yard (regardless of the chances that this
    might happen again) the parent will be filled with a MUCH higher
    anxiety than with the first child?
    Personal experience: After Daniel died in utero in the eighth month
    last year, a number of people started quoting odds to me about the
    chances of a knot in the cord killing him. Since that time I start
    steaming everytime someone suggests that a risk is acceptable
    since "the odds of something happening are....". I had to correct
    someone (and I wasn't too polite about it either) when I was pregnant
    with Charlotte - when they said that the odds of the same thing
    happening are......Well, as you all know that the odds of the same
    thing happening are identical in each case. The odds that it would
    happen to me AGAIN, are a lot smaller.
    Sorry I am ranting and raving here, but this odds thing is something
    that puts smoke out of my ears....
    
    Monica (The improbable is NOT the impossible)
    
            

    Obviously, the issue here is basically a matter of what people are
    comfortable with, and that's very personal thing. 
    
    From my point of view, it's important to keep in mind that every
    precaution has a cost.  The cost may be inconvenience, or
    discomfort, or forgone opportunities, or lost money, or actual harm
    of some sort.  But even a minor inconvenience, repeated often
    enough, may amount to a significant cost.  Does it make sense to
    incur that cost, in the interest of protecting against an incredibly
    unlikely risk?  I don't think so.  For example, if I were to weigh
    the relative risks of my child being cranky all afternoon because of
    an interrupted nap against the risk of my car exploding or a drunk
    driver coming up my driveway, the loss of sleep would win out pretty
    easily.
    
    But obviously, your milage may differ.  For example, I would tend to
    regard the risks of letting small children get in the habit of
    watching television regularly as totally unacceptable, and the
    benefits as negligible; and I'm obviously completely out of step
    with the rest of the world on that one; so why should I be any
    different about assessing other risk/benefit trade-offs?
    
    	-Neil

I grew up in a family of 8 children and we were encouraged to be independent
and _try_ (i.e. take risks).  My husband is the opposite.  As a result, his
duaghter from his first marriage is nearly incapable of trying anything new or
making a decision without asking her father.  Our two boys on the other hand
are already pretty independent.

We also had a neighbor who was unwilling to let his child "take risks".  She was
not allowed to go up and down steps until she was about 4 years old.  We built a 
little set of "practise" steps which also served as a stepping stool for the
sink for Dirk so he could learn about steps almost as soon as he could walk.  
She was the only child in the neighborhood not allowed on swing sets and 
climbing toys, etc.  Again, the child grew up over protected and insecure.

I think we set an example to our children by taking reasonable risks, things that
we can feel comfortable with, and encouraging them to do the same.

By the way, there was a story on the news the other day of a couple driving
down the street with their child in the back in a child seat.  They heard a
"pop" and discovered a bullet had entered the pickup, hitting the child in the
head, killing her instantly.  I simply can't protect against freak accidents.
And I put the drunk driving into my parked car in this category.  It's a
situation beyond my control.

Cheryl

    I think we can all pretty well agree what we all consider high risk
    dangers that are truly parental neglect.  With the low risk dangers
    then we are going to start to have to consider every case on its own
    merits ... like leaving a child in a running car to dash into a store.
    
    But with extremely low risk "chance in a million dangers", I think we
    have to be very careful to not condemn others for making these judgement
    calls that we might otherwise be reluctant to take.  Remember that
    there may well be judgement calls that you might make that others might
    find unacceptable.
    
    Stuart

I'm not sure if this should go in here or not, but here goes:

We went away for Christmas and flew from Atlanta to Boston on early
morning flights both ways (left between 6:00 and 6:30 am.)  Because of the
early return flight we decided to stay at the Hilton right at Logan airport
so we could get up relatively late (5:00 am), catch the 2 minute shuttle bus
and hop on the plane.

At check-in I told the clerk we had a 25% off coupon but it was in the luggage
somewhere.  She said to just bring it back down sometime before check-out
and they would adjust the bill.  So, we all head up the 5th floor with our
luggage and two car seats.  After unpacking some of our stuff we found the 
coupon and my wife suggested I take both the kids downstairs with me to
turn it in.  Samantha (21 months) and Anthony (4yrs, 1 month) and I get on 
the elevator and go down to the lobby.  I turn in the coupon without a hassle
and start walking back up the hallway to the bank of three elevators.  

I'm walking along with Samantha and Anthony charges on ahead.  Anthony runs up
to the elevators and just as I look up he walks into one that has the door
open!  I'm about 25-30 feet from the doors and suddenly the door closes!  I
grab Samantha and run for the door, but it was too late.  All I could hear was
Anthony screaming as the elevator took off.  I immediately hit the down button,
but realized it would not stop it anyway.  There was a porter standing next to 
one of the other elevators and he suddenly realizes what just happened.  We
quickly come to the conclusion that we'll wait until Anthony's elevator stops
and then the porter will take the elevator he's holding up to that floor in case
he gets off.  I'll wait were I am for Anthony's to come back down in case he
doesn't.

Samantha just has this slightly worried look on her face.  She senses something
is wrong, but can't quite understand what.  Anthony's elevator starts coming
back down from the 9th floor and when it arrives, no one is one it.  The 
porter's elevator is starting to come back down so we wait for that one.  When 
the door opens I here the porter call "Dad?"  Four people, the porter and 
Anthony are on the elevator.  Anthony comes running out, crying and jumps 
into my arm (Samantha's in the other one.)    

They both cling to me as we ride back up to the 5th floor and get back into the 
room.

Dave

    Well that is certainly food for thought when around elevators. What a
    frightening experience for everyone.

    			Wendy

    Along these lines, a friend of mine had two children under two years
    old.  She went shopping with them pushing the baby in a carriage and
    having the toddler walking and being carried on one arm.  As is
    normal in Geneva, she didn't have a car and used the bus.  When she
    went to get off the bus, she placed the two year old on the sidewalk
    and turned to get the baby.  The bus drove off!  She grabbed the two
    year old and had to run all the way to the next stop.  By then I guess
    the other passengers had alarmed the bus driver who was waiting
    patiently for her to collect the carriage.
    
    Cheryl

    Just for curiosity sake, how did the basenoter make out at the party?
    
    As I read the base and replies the one question that came to mind was,
    how much noise was there?  We lived in an apartment house style condo,
    and frequently we were next door or across the hall visiting.  I
    remember several times being able to hear my phone ringing, the wall I
    swear were made of paper!!
    
    Just FYI, as the wife of a firefighter, I would have no problem with
    leaving a child in the crib, leaving only AFTER the child(ren) were
    asleep for the night with the monitor on.  The only thing I would have
    done differently is to make sure the baby's door was SHUT!  This way
    should a fire start at least the smoke would not get to the room before
    the general house smoke detectors went off.  I would think though, that
    the smoke detectors in the public hallway would probably go off first,
    if someone in the building didn't notice the problem first.
    
    Even now we make sure AJ's door is shut at night.  His room is at the
    end of a short hall that connects to our kitchen.  Smoke and odors seem
    to get to his room first and linger there longer.  
    Cooking odors..yuck!!
            

    RE: shutting doors "in case of fire"
    
    This is not directed at anyone in this conference. I just want
    to share a childhood experience that has affected my entire life.
    
    When I was growing up, my mom would insist I keep my bedroom door
    closed when I slept "in case of fire."  What she didn't know was
    that it took my hours to get to sleep because I layed there worrying
    and wondering if this would be 'the night'. 
    
    Of course it didn't help that she also told me my eyes might 'stick'
    if I crossed them. :^) So I'd worry about that as well, staring
    straight up at the ceiling, I'd make sure my eyes were perfectly
    aligned then I'd close them slowly, checking and rechecking to make
    sure they didn't accidently cross while closing. I did this until
    exhaustion and/or fear of fire took over. Then dragged my poor,
    tired body to school the next morning.
    
    To this day, I will not (cannot) close any door in the house. Even
    the bathroom door, unless we have company.  
    
    Be careful what you say to your kids, you never know what's going
    through your children's little heads and what kind of fear, casual
    remarks can inflict on the minds of naive, innocent children.
    
    Jodi-who's eyes are just fine, thank you :^)

    Jodi, glad you're eyes are fine....
    
    AJ for MY own son, we've never actually told him the reason for
    shutting the door.  For what its worth, I don't think he's got an ounce
    of FEAR in him anyway.  Lately he's been such a pain in the butt going
    to sleep we've actually left his door open until he's asleep.  But
    that's another story with Batman tucked under his pillow, the younger
    cat insisting on snuggling for a few minutes then leaving, and coming
    back and so on... but this all belongs in another note.  
    
    This note brought back memories of condo living, boy talk about a lack
    of privacy..... !!!  No loud arguments, stereos, AND QUIET sex!! ;-)
    
    Lyn

re .48

After buying and watching Home Alone and Home Alone II Anthony seems a bit more
comfortable talking about his little adventure on the elevator last year.  No
real revelations, but for a few months after the trip he'd just clam up if we
mentioned elevators.  Now he is at least willing to talk about it, even though
he still makes sure we're with him when we get near one....

Dave