Conference moira::parenting

    katy,
    
    None of our kids have been out of our bedroom before they were two so i
    have no advice there, I think it is where babies belong.  YMMV.
    
    He is two and tow is a boundries testing age.  with my kids, if they
    are a young two, I just tell them no and remove them from the situation. 
    If they are older I still say no and remove them from the situation, but
    add in why, if they are verbal, and work on a distraction.  My
    two-yer-olds have all been impulse-driven and what I think they should
    know is naughty is often not the case.  they are more in the mode of
    "because it is there."  I do rate temper tantrums.  Atlehi hasn't been
    able to rate more than a 6 in the last few weeks.  (To get over a 5
    requires throwing herself on the floor and kicking)
    
    meg
    
    

    	kyle has been in his own bed since he was 3 days old. I never
    wanted to end up like so many with a family bed.  I try to get him back
    in his bed at night now, but man does he pull a fit. 
    	I want to punish him like we always have, if I don't I am afraid he
    will start to think that he only gets the "real" punishments when daddy
    is home. That he won't get punished when daddy is away. I guess I just
    have to bear with it and do my best. He is also going through his 2
    year old testing period with me and others.....which makes it all the
    harder now. 
    	He has also been acting up at daycare since daddy left. The lady
    who watches him said the other kids were going home and telling thier
    parents that Kyle hit me, Kyle kicked me...etc.... I told her to please
    bear with it. If the parents have any concerns to call me at home. 
    	When he is with our close relatives, he behaves fine. But when he's
    with just me, or at daycare, he's very testing! What is the best way
    for myself to understand him and keep my frustration to a minimum?
    While letting him know, nothing has changed as far as his limits??
    
    		Katy

    As for kicking and hitting - what is his reason NOT to??  It doesn't
    sound like "time out" is very effective with him - may be time to try
    another approach.
    
    He's still only two, and easy enough to physically pick up.  With my 2
    year old, when he's misbehaving, he gets told No.  Up to about 3 times
    (depending on how lazy I feel, and how drastic the 'bad' behavior is)
    Then, depending on what he's doing, I TAKE CONTROL.  Either he's
    removed from the situation, a toy/pen/whatever is removed from him,
    etc.  He sometimes has a fit, which I *COMPLETELY* ignore. (being the
    3rd kid, it's a LOT easier to ignore).  When he's been crying for a few
    mins, I'll calmly ask him "Are you done yet?" and he'll answer yes or
    no, depending on how frustrated he is, and it goes from there.  A Yes
    usually reults in a different toy, and a hug.  I do try to distract him
    a lot, or offer other alternatives to try to ward off the "Fit", but
    once he goes into it, that's the immediate end of ALL "negotiations".
    
    As for nighttimes ... Jonathan's still in a crib, so can't come in my
    room.  BUT, a lot of times I'll let him sleep in my bed (what the heck
    - it's usually empty).  If he wakes in the middle of the night,
    sometimes I'll bring him in (though he usually prefers to go back in
    his own room).  No matter what the case, whenever he stays in my bed, I
    make it sound like a **BIG** deal, so that he realizes it's not really
    HIS bed, and is something 'special'.  (is 3-4 times/week 'special'??
    (-;)  ESPECIALLY on w/end nights, since he sleeps in a lot later in the
    morning, when he's in my room.
    
    Lastly, one thing that I've found that most *DEFINITELY* decreases the
    2-yr-fits, is to spend a LOT of time with him.  I find that if I'm
    extra busy, he gets especially "naughty".  So when he starts acting up
    more, I make it a point to spend a good chunk of time just playing or
    just cuddling with him - it works quite well ... and what the heck,
    we'll do the laundry after he's asleep (in his crib (-;).
    
    We have yet to hit full-fledged temper-trantrums ... hopefully we'll
    avoid that!! (he's 2 1/2)
    
    

    Is there something special you can do with him in the evening?
    Let him know it's a special time for the two of you because Daddy
    is gone.  I have done this with great success.  Usually I promise
    a supper trip - to Grammie's, or to Burger King and then play in
    their play area.  But it is discussed in the morning on the way
    to daycare, and clear rules are set up.  We can only do this special
    thing if she behaves.  We don't do special things for girls that
    don't behave, we don't get punished, we just try again tomorrow.  
    The rule could be that the daycare teacher must say that she has 
    been extra good.  I have found much more success with rewards than
    with punishments.  I'm sure it depends on the child's personality.
    
    And I'm not saying she never gets punished!  Just that we usually
    don't need to resort to that, the rewards USUALLY work.
    
    Janice

    
    	No offence but I don't want to use rewards to adjust his behavior.
    I believe that only leads to worse problems in the future. 
    	He has been doing much better lately. I spend a lot of time with
    him. He's the opposite, he is less needy for attention when I am doing
    housework then if i were to sit with him and play. He likes to help
    sweep and stuff, so it doesn't bother him if Mommy is cleaning, he goes
    into his rooma nd plays or reads. If I am on the floor with him, he is
    very.."come see, lookit it mommy, come here, watch..."
    	Daddy called this morning and he was very interseted and wouldn't
    give me the phone back! So, I think he is getting used to the fact that
    daddy isn't here. I can't wait to his reaction when daddy comes home!
    	thanks. Katy

Sometimes instead of putting my son in "timeout",  I put one of his
favorite toys in timeout, especially if he was throwing it or using it
to hit his brother. Putting him in timeout doesn't always work if he
doesn't want to be in timeout.  He won't always physically stay there.  
I can put the toys out of his reach.

Garry

    I do the same thing with my two (4 and 7).  If they're fighting over a
    toy, or using it in an inappropriate way, I'll "impound" the toy for a
    period of time.  Same with the TV...any arguments, the TV is shut off.
    Period.  
    
    It gets them both bickering with ME instead of at each other!
    
    Kate

    Katy:
    
    Have recently experienced the same thing with my near 3 yr old.
    Unfortunately, his Dad isn't coming back. 
    Two - things that ai want to commecnt on -
    
    The phone thing - it's OK. As you said, he probably feels abandoned by
    his Daddy, which is normal and OK. He is wounding Daddy when he does
    talk to him, but because he DOES love him and DOES miss him, he acts
    out on the play phone.
    
    Punishment/behaviour - again, a normal reaction. Who was the main
    disciplinarian, you or your husband?  It sound as though Daddy was
    maybe the most effective. With Daddy gone, your child sounds like he's
    saying . pfewwy on you - You're not Daddy.
    What my pediatrician stressed, was do not, DO NOT, waiver on the
    discipline. Time your child out in his room. Shut the door or put a
    baby gate across the door. Set a time and stick to it. But, if he
    fusses, start the time from when he calms. You don't necessarily have
    to swat his diaper. Stick to your gungs. Give him fair warning, though.
    Tell him that if he doesn;t do such-and-such, he will be put in his
    room.
    
    Good luck - been there, all too often recently.
    Let us know how it goes.
    
    - Sarah

    re .6+7 .... oh yes -- the object of the argument/fit/whatever, is
    always removed.  I refuse to listen to kids arguing about which tv show
    to watch, or hollering because they can't play appropriately with a toy
    or whatever -- in my mind, TV, *ALL* those toys, etc, are luxuries.  If
    it's causing stress, it's going away.  Period.
    
    I forgot to mention a KEY thing to Jonathan's 'fits' (That I got to
    quickly remember last night (-;).  He wanted to watch the Care Bears
    tape again, but it was bedtime (and the 3rd time he'd seen it).  He
    threw a fit, BIG (tired) tears, and that awful "wailing" cry.  He
    didn't want me to be anywhere near him, and wanted nothing to do with
    anything.  So, I just took his pacifier and blankie, and put it next to
    him, and went out into the kitchen.  He was funny, because he didn't
    see where it was, and then starts yelling at me "Where is it?!  Mommy, I
    want it!"  I pointed to where it was, he grabbed it, I asked him if he
    was done yet, and he whimpered No!, and I went back in the kitchen.  A
    couple mins later, he's half-crashed on the floor with his pacifier and
    his blankie all scrunched around his face, and I hear this pitiful
    little "yes"  "Yes." -- signalling that his evil twin has left, and
    he's back to normal now.  I went in and he got lots of cuddles, and
    within seconds was all giggly again.  I think (I HOPE!) that that makes
    it clear to him that he just can't act like Damien, but otherwise, I'll
    always be there for him ....
    
    By far, *completely* refusing to take part in his rotten mood, AND
    giving him a simple way to calm himself (pac. + blankie), has worked
    tons better than any approach with my older two boys (when they were
    2).  Fortunately none of my kids have been the kind to self-inflict
    pain, or to trash the place (much), so I CAN just leave them.  Some
    people aren't so lucky ... 
    
    Patty

    	Actually, I am the one who gives out the punishments. I am with him
    more, daddy works 3rd shift. But when daddy is there, Kyle tends to go
    to him when I give him a timeout or whatever. Almost as if to get a
    second opinion from dad.
    	If I give him a timeout, he goes straight to dad and whimpers, but
    dad tells him the same I did, Which causes a fit ofcourse. 
    	Daddy called this morning.....he'll be gone another 2 weeks,
    extended from only one more week. I have noticed this week that Kyle is
    doing the little things to get immediate attention. He stands up on the
    kitchen table and screams and laughs. I just say no, and put him on the
    floor. He does it over and over agian, until I can finnally get him
    intersested in something else. I know kids will accept any attention,
    positive or negative. But it seems I've been in the mode of more
    negative attention dur to his "bad" behavior. The only thing I can do
    to give him more positive attention is spending more time with him
    playing.
    			Katy

    I think your approach of positive attention - doing fun things together
    is right on.  It tends to minimize the negative attention moments.
    Sticking to your child's normal sleeping, eating, play (with friends)
    schedule also keeps some stability in their life.  Good luck !

    	Yeah, unfortunately his regular schedual is just about completely
    distrupted, no matter what I do. Daycare is the same, but instead of
    Daddy picking him up, it's his Aunt. Instead of spending 7-3pm  at Aunt
    house on Fridays, it's 7-6, and then 6-9 at Grandma's. Saturdays,
    instead of 7-2 at grandma's, it's 7-9pm! He's ajusting well now,
    finnally. For him, daddy being gone a major loss in his schedual. His
    eating habits have changed as well, he barely ate at first. I
    considered that ok, he was eating a vitamin everyday and did eat some
    of his meals. He's finnaly back on his nap schedual. 
    	How do stick to a normal sleeping pattern? It's already lost. He
    will not go to sleep unless he is tired beyond belief. He refuses to
    fall asleep in his own bed. Last night I put him in his own bed, he
    wanted my bed, so I let him lay down and doze off. I put him back in
    his bed and i had gone to bed at 1am....sometime between 1 and 6 am he
    had gotten in bed with me, I never woke up like I usually do....when
    the alarm went off....I noticed how uncomfoprtable my pillows
    were.......it was Kyle behind my head sleeping sideways under my
    pillows!!!  Boy, daddy won't be too happy when he gets a taste of this
    new sleeping pattern!!
    	Any ideas on how I can gradually get him to sleep on his own again?
    I've tryed and tryed.
    			Katy

Good luck.  I think everyone in this age range goes through something
like this.  From what I see they're very much creatures of habit, so
changing things is very confusing for them.

For us it was a baby brother upsetting our now 3 year old's life.
He did calm down (a bit), but it took a lot of time and patience to
get beyond the turbo-tantrums.

I saw a lot of the "smiling" when I was disciplining him.  That made
me feel that I had to get through to him that this isn't a game.
He didn't like that.  And the tantrums went from mere crying to full
blown death wails.

Something to note.  Things change.  What used to work for disciplining
might not any more.  Another approach is needed.  I used to be able to
get through to him by using a loud commanding voice.  He basically needed
to hear me (above what he was doing) to realize not to do something, etc..
Now he's turned into a sensitive soul who doesn't want me to "yell" at
him.  Talking quietly works much better (if he's not screaming), and if
need be, I can threaten to raise my voice.  We try to avoid hitting.
And we found that time outs don't work as well as they used to, now
he seems to just get more upset by them.

Jamie also works well with denial of something he wants.
He likes to be chased when its time to put his coat on.  So if its an
errand he wants to go on, I simply threaten to leave him home with mom
if he won't cooperate.  My going out the door is enough to clue him in
with "wait!!!"

We only had a brief bout of his trying to sleep with us, I only got around
it by being extreamly firm that he had his own room and would sleep there.
I was willing to change things in the room to make him happy (night light,
move the bed, leave the door open), etc, but no discussion of sleeping with
us.  (This stemmed from "noises" and a tired daddy giving in to letting him
nap with me ONCE over the holidays...)  I don't know what to suggest once a
kid is used to sleeping outside their own bed...

And yes, you should proably expect some interesting behavior when Dad
returns.

Charlie

  You have gotten a lot of great feeback here.  I don't have a 2 year old but I can
really relate to the traveling spouse.  One of the things that used to work well for
me was letting the kids make their own calendar.  They could then measure how long
until papa returns.  This of course only works if you have a realiable return day.
I stopped doing this when he called and said he would be 4 days late :^(

  I also try very hard to have a consistent schedule - it's not the same as when papa
is home but it is consistent throughout the absence.

  I also had the problem of the kids wanting to sleep with me.  My kids are older
than yours (5 and 6).  I have been firm about everybody sleeping in their own beds
and so far it works.  The kids never seem to sleep as long when he's away though.

  As for the return - the kids are always excited to see papa.  But then they often
give him the cold shoulder for awhile.  This seems to be lessening the older they
get.  I think it also helps that they have traveled quite a bit themselves.  They
can understand the time difference.


Hang in there and be good to yourself,

Elizabeth

    
    	Thanks. He just had his 2 year birthday yesterday. We had a party
    with lots of kids and relatives. That gave him a surge of energy for 3
    days!! New toys to play with and balloons everywhere. He was happy,
    still is. 
    	I am thinking of having another within the next year, any
    suggestions on some good books I can get for Kyle and myself? I know it
    will be a difficult time for Kyle, and us.
    
    			Katy

    
    	Hi Katy,
    
    	I'm confused.  Your son spends Fridays from 7Am to 9PM
    	with relatives and the same on Saturday with your husband
    	being gone?  So that means he only sees you for a few 
    	minutes those days and the rest of the time he sees you
    	for a couple of hours and on Sunday.  Are you working two
    	jobs?  Maybe you should cut back with your husband being
    	gone?  
    
    	Just wondering... seems to me that with your husband
    	being gone and you working all those hours its not
    	surprisine that he is acting up.
    
    	Good luck!
    
    	Karen
    

    
    	I confuse a lot of people.
    
    Sunday....I am home all day with Kyle.
    
    Monday...Home all day.
    
    Tuesday..Home all day.
    
    Wednesday...every other Wed, I am home::at work.
    
    Thursay...I am at work. Kyle daycare 7-3, sister 3-6, mom 6-9
    
    Friday....I am at work. Kyle sister 7-6, mom 6-9
    
    Saturday..I am at work. Kyle mom 7-9
    
    		Sooo.....yes, on the days I work Kyle and I only see
    eachother for about....2 hours a day. I stinks on my long week(4 days)
    
    	I work 8am to 8pm. Nope, only one job. On my work days we have from 
    6:15am to 7:15am...which a busy time getting ready..but I set aside 10
    min, for extra special hugs. Then we have from 8:30pm to 9:30pm at
    night, that's the major hugs and kisses time for us. I try to get him
    in bed for 10pm the latest so he will rest good for the morning.
    
    	He used to go to bed by 8:30, but with this job, I adjusted his
    schedual to go to bad late so we can still have our special goodnight
    rituals.
    
    			Katy

    
    
    ooppsss...I meant it stinks...not I stinks!!! ha ha ha. 

    Maybe it has been suggested...
    
    I found my daughter got impossible at 2 1/2 and so did I. Now that she
    is nearly 5, I have reinstated a ritual which used to be more frequent
    when she was younger. We play "tickles";  call it tickle therapy.
    
    The idea is that I play with her, not with her toys...and she plays
    with me. We get physical, lots of hugs, lots of laughs, and lots of 
    being out of role. 
    
    I recommend it. I think it helps immensely when you just aren't getting
    the kind of time together you need; it is play at a toddler level;
    you can see the fun and love in each other's eyes.
    
    My daughter asked the other day if I would play tickles with her
    always, even when she is big.

    
    	That's cute. we have our special events together. What he really
    misses the most, which I can't really take the place of, is running
    through the house playing.."touchdown, fumble, and score!!"
    	In our words...football. That's a daddy game. I stink at it. I
    tryed to play with im when he asked to play "touchdown", but he got mad
    because I didn't run the right way, too slow or too fast. I didn't fall
    down right,, I didn't fumble right!! So I gave up!
    	We color together, paint, housework, etc.......we do rough housing
    too, but the mommy way!
    			Katy

    
    	Hi. Daddy is home. Kyle is thrilled. Yet, he has been extra fussy
    and pulling many tantrums all day long. I expected it, so it hasn't
    bothered me(yet). He won't let daddy console him if he gets a boo-boo
    or is just unhappy. That'll take time. He pulled an enormous tantrum
    when I dropped him off at daycare this morning. Poor thing, I almost
    cryed myself. But I'm sure he was happily playing 5 minutes after I
    left. He'll be psyched when daddy picks him up in the afternoon. 
    	Normal schedual again!! Yipp-eeee!!!
    
    		Katy

    
    Yup - it's "normal" ... he's punishing Daddy for "desserting" him. (or
    is that deserting?)
    
    And he's probably worried it'll happen again or with you, thus the fits
    when he's left ...
    
    Good Luck!

    re: .15 "I am thinking of having another within the next year, any
    suggestions on some good books I can get for Kyle and myself?"
    
    My husband and I have an 11-month old daughter, and have been enrolled
    in the "New Parents as Teachers" program offered by Burton (Bud) White
    in Newton, MA.  Bud has been studying children in their home
    environments for 30-some years, and has a philosophy and specific
    recommendations on child-rearing so that one ends up with a happy,
    unspoiled, intellectually-stimulated and eager to learn child at the 
    age of 3.
    
    We have been very happy with the program, which has helped us with
    things like sleep habits, eating habits, development of eye-hand
    coordination and language skills, preventing/curing bad habits, etc.
    There are so many things which I wouldn't have noticed myself until
    they were a problem, or cues which I would have missed that speak
    to some early developing aspect of the child.  I think this is
    especially true with a first child, when we are clueless!  The emphasis
    in this program/philosphy is to make the child very secure, loved,
    and stimulated by his/her environment, and also to learn that there
    are limits of acceptable behavior (which is important to learn young),
    most notably when it comes to safety issues or infringing on the
    rights of others.
    
    While the program is only open to first-time parents and they should
    join within the first 9 months (they prefer you to join BEFORE the
    child is born), Bud has two books which I recommend.  "The First
    Three Years of Life" - now in it's 4th completely revised edition,
    and "Raising a Happy and Unspoiled Child."  Both books are split
    up by the child's age, so you don't have to tackle the whole thing
    at once.  The second one is faster reading, and doesn't cover all
    the developmental/learning issues and clinical observations of the
    first, but they are both good reading.
    
    You should be able to readily find these in your library or at
    the bookstore.
    
    Good luck!
    
    Jennie

    
    	How much does this program cost?  Seems very interesting. I love to
    read so I think I'll get some good books about it. I have a book by
    Penelope(sp.) Leach..."Birth to Age Five".  It's good but very one
    sided and it's written as if "this is the only way to raise a child",
    which I don't agree with but I like to flip through it now and then to
    get some ideas on what to expect.
    
    		Katy

    The program is $70. per month, which includes one home visit each
    month at your house, a group meeting at their house about every
    six weeks (you plus the other parents/kids in your group), a
    "warm line" which you can call with your questions and concerns
    between visits, and their "toy service," through which you can
    buy some new toys they stock which they think are particularly
    good (and at good prices), and you can rent equipment very cheaply
    from them.  For instance, I rented their battery-operated swing
    for 4 months for $15., and also a walker for 3 months for about
    the same amount.  When you don't need it anymore, just return it!
    
    FYI, Bud White is a fan of Penelope Leach, but not of Terry Brazelton.
    
    Regards,
    
    Jennie
    
    P.S.  He's also opinionated, as is Penelope!  But I think he has
    some good ideas and observations.