Conference moira::parenting

    I don't have any experience, but I saw an artical in my Seasame Street
    Magazine Parents Guide about it last night.  I will make a copy and
    send it to you if you want.
    
    Sasha

    I don't know the number of the note but I know there was a note in
    P.V-3 regarding blood taking and testing.  (It was around summer of
    1990 or so)
    
    The moderators could probably direct you if you want info on blood
    taking note (I don't think there was anything in that particular note about
    lead paint though).
    
    NF
    

    Hi Janet,
    
    My son underwent the lead paint testing at 9 months and they drew the
    blood from a vein.  I was very apprehensive about how he would tolerate
    the proceedure, also.  They sat me in the chair with Forrest on my lap
    and put the bar across.  They asked me to hold him still (sure) while
    they did the rubber tubing on his right upper arm and drew the blood
    with a *tiny* needle from inside his elbow.  All in all, it was very
    quick and Forrest didn't have a chance to fuss before it was all over.
    
    So in my experience, the people who drew the blood were very adept and
    used to dealing with small children, so they were *very* quick.  It
    wasn't even close to the disaster that I had expected.
    
    Good luck,
    

    I have two children ages 4 and 8 and they have never had this test.  Is
    this test for just lead or lead paint in particular?  Because you can
    get lead from your pipes.  They don't even have to be lead pipes, you
    can get lead in the water from the sodder used, especially if you have
    a water softner.
    
    belinda

re: .2

>    I don't know the number of the note but I know there was a note in
>    P.V-3 regarding blood taking and testing.  (It was around summer of
>    1990 or so)

Whatta memory!  See Parenting_V3, note 175 (July 1990).  See note 9.21 of this 
notesfile for access information for Parenting_V3.

Some of the responses to note 118 of this notesfile are also relevant to the 
blood taking issue.

Clay

    Janet,
    
    (Hi!) I have had my son tested on several occasions, both finger-stick
    and from the vein in the inside of the elbow. My daughter had blood 
    drawn from her heel as a tiny baby. In my experience, the person on the
    other end of the needle is the key...you could try asking for the
    person with the best needle technique, or best at drawing blood from
    kids.
    
    Even if it doesn't go well, it is *so* important to do, and it will
    be over fast. Good luck.
    
    Lucy

    re: .1
    
    Could you post that article here.  I would be very interested in what
    it had to say.
    
    Virginia

    Be aware that if the child is very difficult to restrain they may use a
    device called a papoose to physically restrain the child while the
    blood is drawn. It's no fun (especially for the parents) but it beats
    the heck out of ripping a vein or poking an eye with a needle.

    			Wendy

    Janet,
    
    I meant to add a more positive tone to my reply (.6) - none of
    our blood-drawing experiences have been bad. Some were outstanding
    (my son watched with interest and didn't mind going back). I think
    phlebotomists are getting great training these days.
    
    Lucy

    
    Hi,
    
    My daughter had the same test at 12 months - they also called us
    back due to questionable results.  I held her on my lap while they
    drew the blood from her vein - she was very interested in what
    they were doing and it went very quickly.  Turns out the lab
    made a mistake the first time and everything was fine.  Good luck.
    
    Jane Marie

    We had similar experiences with Sean when he had his blood taken at
    4 mos and again at 7.5 mos from a vein in his arm.

    The first time, the nurse put the test off one day to ensure that 
    there would be a specialist there for handling a young child.  The 
    second time, I made sure to ask that the specialist would be there 
    again.

    Both times, I asked the assistant to hold Sean as I thought she would
    have a stronger grip and not let up when he started to cry or fuss.
    He did well and cried more because he was being restrained than because
    of the needle.  

    Their procedure was simple.  A nurse at the clinic sat in a dentist type 
    chair which had wide arm rests.  She held Sean in her lap.  She held his 
    his arm with a firm grip onto the arm rest while the specialist took the
    sample in the normal fashion.  They took two vials of blood for testing.

    I stood in front of Sean and talked to him while they took the blood. 
    Two minutes afterwards, Sean showed no signs of even remembering that he
    had a needle in his arm.  

    I felt worse the first time when he was only 4 months old.  Now he seems
    to be taking it all in stride...still with a few tears but it is not really
    any different from when the doctor gives him a vaccine.

    Best of luck.

      Carol
    

    Also look at the notes in 1140 in Parenting_v3.  My daughter's finger
    test also came in high, I was worried about having a blood test from
    her (tiny!!!) vein, and everything came out normal.  Hang in there!
    
    					Mair
    

    I have experience in this area. I always have my kids tested yearly (in
    Boston that is now a standard). After we had our house painted
    (outside) in 1989, I immediately took them to be checked. One showed up
    in the 30s, which counts as moderate poisoning, and puts you into a
    legal system that requires deleading. I was on leave for a year
    following the birth of our 3rd. Rather than pay the estimated
    $15-20,000 to have the house deleaded, I took a course to become a
    deleading contractor and did it myself -- total cost about $7,000. A
    very onerous and physically demanding job, even for me -- strong, a
    lifetime of carpenntry and renovation behind me.
    
    Meanwhile our daughter took kelation medicine daily -- the most
    godawful tasting medicine on earth, that I had to crush, soak in juice
    and literally force down her screaming throat. It took 2 8-week courses
    to get her down. Also, there were nearly weekly blood drawings --
    again, a screaming, raging trial for the poor thing as I held her down
    (even though they were the most efficient and quickest blood drawers
    I've ever seen).
    
    As for a lead level of 10 --- until last year the triggering figure was
    25. Ten is extremely conservative, is based on some long term studies
    that were recently published,  and is netting immense numbers of
    kids. But I wouldn't worry about it, especially if your child is just
    at 10.
    
    It's an issue of immense difficulty, because the danger is real and
    because if you live in a house built before 1970 you likely have lead
    paint, so you are in legal position of living in a toxic waste dump
    from another era and being privately responsible for the cleanup.
    Eventually, I believe effective encapsulates will be developed and
    approved that will permanently enclose lead paint in place, but we're
    not there yet. And what government does not legislate (states like MA
    have very strong lead paint laws), insurance companies will handle
    through the marketplace: it is now almost impossible to be covered by
    lead paint liability for rental property, and I'm sure single-family
    residences will follow.
    
    Kit

    My daughter Samantha had to be tested for allergies at about 4
    months - They needed to take a blood sample - I got 2 choices,
    I could either have her finger pricked or it taken from one
    of the veins in her arm.  They told me that the arm was much
    easier and quicker (the finger could have taken up to 5 minutes!)
    
    I had to hold her and she cried (not much more than a regular shot
    kind'a cry).......
    
    It won't be as bad as you think.......
    

    
    As an update to the base note.  Karen was retested, my husband brought
    her as I knew that I would be uptight when we got there and she would
    sense that.  She was very upset again during the retesting.  We just
    heard from the doctor that her test came in at 1 instead of the initial
    10 and everything was just fine. 
    
    I can't tell you how many times since Karen was born that I have
    worried and lost sleep over things that have turned out fine. I
    should learn by now that worrying is just part of parenting!
    
    Janet
         

    My baby had his well-baby check and they checked for anemia.
    
    He is anemic and has to take iron drops.  Has anyone else had
    problems with anemia?  My dr mentioned it is an early sign
    for lead poisoning.  Has anyone else heard this?
    I'm waiting for him to call me back to see if this is a possibility.
    My husband never asked.
    
    Also, the dr said the iron drops will make his teeth black. 
    Anyone have a way to prevent this?
    
    I live in an apartment and the tap water has always concerned
    me.  He drinks iron fortified formula (32 oz a day) plus iron 
    fortified cereal.  I'm just stunned that he has a problem and
    think it is more than just not getting enough iron.  Other babies
    don't even get as much as he is getting and they don't have anemia.
    
    Thanks for any input.
    
    Kristen
                         
    

I've never heard that anemia is a sign of possible lead poisoning.

Both my kids were on iron supplements in addition to iron-fortified formula,
but it never really concerned me as anemia runs in my family, so I would have
been surprised if they didn't need it.  With us, they were only on it about
6 months, and then they were fine.  The only side effect that I noticed was
that the extra iron really constipated Jessica, so we had to compensate for
that.  Brad, however, didn't have that problem.

I'm sure your doctor will be able to fill in the details for you. I don't
believe the need for an iron supplement is uncommon, however.  

Cathy

    All babies are routinely tested for iron at around 10? mos. Our Doctor
    explained that at that time, the babies have used up the mother's
    supply of iron (why do you think so many of us have to have extra iron
    while pregnant?) and their own little systems kick in and start
    producing their own iron.

    	In some babies, their systems are not quite ready to start
    producing their own iron and need to be "kick started" (her words).

    	having a young child on iron supplements is not that unusual, I
    imagine that they will retest your child in awhile to see if
    everything is okay.

    	Although Spencer did have to have his iron test repeated (it was
    low) the second test was low normal and they decided to not do anything
    extra for him.

    	I had not heard the connection between lead and iron and I had also
    not heard about the teeth turning black (although I had heard of teeth
    discoloration for some antibiotics). they usually test for lead at the
    same time that they test for iron, were the results available for that
    or do you have to go in for another blood test :-(

    				Wendy

    Well wouldn't you know the dr calls my husband instead of me...ARGH!
    
    He doesn't really ask what I wanted but basically Mitchell's iron
    is just a little low.  He does want us to get our water tested
    because lead poisoning is worth looking into. It definately could
    be a sign for lead poisoning. I called the water dept and they are 
    sending us viles to use and we'll send them back.
    
    I know their iron stores are gone by 4 months of age.  He is just
    taking in so much more iron than other babies because of all the
    formula he still drinking....it just doesn't make sense why he
    could be anemic.  There has to be a reason why what he is taking
    in isn't enough.
    
    As far as the staining of the teeth, according to the Ferin-fate
    insert, their teeth will be temporarily discolored.  This discoloration
    is the membrane around the teeth, not the enamel.  They say to use
    baking soda and brush his teeth frequently to minimize/remove it.
    
    I spoke to the dentist and they claim the discoloration is permanent
    but be glad they are only baby teeth. (I didn't particularly like
    this attitude!) 
    
    So I guess I'll have a baby with gray teeth....so frustrating.
    
    Will update on how my water tested out....Kristen
    
                    

    Kristin,
    
    Did I miss something -- wouldn't it make sense to test the baby
    for lead exposure? A lead test would give you something to go on, 
    and perhaps put all fears to rest.
    
    Lucy

re .20:

>    Did I miss something -- wouldn't it make sense to test the baby
>    for lead exposure? A lead test would give you something to go on, 
>    and perhaps put all fears to rest.

However, if they can be confident about the absence of other lead sources,
then the water is the only thing to worry about.  A drinking-water lead test
runs around $20.  I don't know what a lead exposure test for a child costs,
but I'd expect that it's a lot more than that.  I can see why you'd just go 
with checking the water, unless you had specific reason to suspect lead 
poisoning.

	-Neil

    Neil,
    
    My comment was based on my feeling that it's very hard to really be
    confident that my kid is not being exposed to lead.
    
    Is there lead from old paint chips in the soil around my house? Is
    there lead dust from windows opening and closing, or from renovations
    (even light sanding and scraping before repainting?) Does the
    babysitter's house have lead sweat joints on the supply pipes? Can I be
    sure my kid has never put her mouth on the railing on my neighbor's
    porch, which probably has exposed lead paint (suggested by the pattern 
    of cracking)? 
    
    Most of the housing where I live and where my kids spend most of their
    time was built a long time ago and I know there's plenty of lead there.
    That's why I have my kids tested yearly. They are in a safe range, so
    I don't need to be paranoid. 
    
    Lucy

    My son tested low for iron at 9 months and has been on an iron
    supplement since then (he's 15 months). He was tested at the same time
    for lead levels, and they were very low - my family doctor mentioned
    nothing about a correlation between low iron level and suspected lead
    poisoning.
    
    Christopher's teeth have not turned black. The only thing that _has_
    darkened is his stool.:-)  Some children experience constipation with
    iron supplements; others experience diarrhea. Chris has had neither.
    
    There is one caution with iron supplements - it cannot be taken at the
    same time as dairy products since the dairy products render the iron
    useless - so, you have to take the iron 1 hr before or 2 hours after
    eating dairy products for it to have any benefit.
    
    

    I was under the impression that Lead Testing was now required by the
    state?  I believe that was what my dr told me when I took Samantha for
    her 9 month check up - Anyone else heard that?  I'll have to check
    on that next time I see him.
    
    andrea

    RE .23
    
    I knew that iron and dairy should not be taken together....BUT
    why do they put it in the formula if they cannot absorb it?
    
    I was wondering if this problem has contributed to his low iron.
    Even though he has all this formula, maybe he is just not absorbing
    enough of the iron because of the milk products in the formula.
    
    Your child's teeth haven't discolored?  Are you using drops or
    pills?
           
    Thanks, Kristen

    The reason for iron fortified formula is that babies need the iron -
    how it is absorbed with the formula is different than taking an iron
    supplement with dairy products.
    
    My son is taking a liquid - 1 teaspoon in juice each morning.
    

    
    I was exposed to lead water at a customer site and Digital's response 
    follows:
    
    I was at a customer site every day for several years in Downtown 
    Cleveland.  It was a very old building and I drank the 
    water from the fountains daily.  I drank at
    least 32 oz. a day while at work since I was on a diet and trying to
    lose weight.  I found out I was pregnant and a few weeks later, a
    mandatory testing of city water was started in all buildings downtown. 
    Almost every fountain in this building was way over the EPA recommended
    levels.  One fountain was tested at 200 times over this level.  Can't
    remember exact numbers now.  All of a sudden, signs went up over every
    fountain with a big WARNING label about the water, stating that you
    shouldn't drink from it!
    
    When I went to have a blood test for the lead, which cost me $300.00, I
    tried to submit the bill to workmen's comp.  My manager was behind me
    on this and I was told by personnel to get as much evidence as
    possible.  I sent them (workmen's comp people) the official letter sent
    out to all employees at this site stating the water had unusually high
    levels of lead and should not be used as drinking water.  I cut out
    articles written in several newspapers about it too (it was a big STORY
    in the city since several cleveland schools were also found to have
    high levels).  
    
    Point is, they turned me down, would NOT pay my bill.  I ended up
    testing slightly high but was told it was still in safe range.  These
    ranges kill me, it's like saying, oh you have a little lead, but it's
    ok, not to worry...  That was my first pregnancy and I lost my son at
    20 weeks.   I'm not saying it was because of the lead.  But then again,
    they don't know what causes chromosome defects now do they.
    
    Loreen 
                                            

    What is the Mass law for lead testing for children going into
    kindergarten ?  Is there one ?   My son has been tested several
    times since birth with no problems. I was told this was mandatory.
    Now he needs one (supposedly) before he can go to kindergarten. 
    
    My issue is that he had an oral polio vaccine, TB test, and booster
    shot all in one day last week. Needless to say when he got up to the 
    lab for the lead test right after that, he went crazy and we could't
    have the test taken.  His last lead test was 5/91.

    According to Ma law, lead tests should be done yearly.  As long as
    there was a lead test that showed normal for the last annual exam, you
    should be OK.
    
    Dan

    yearly until when ?

The law on physical examinations for school students is Chapter 71 Section 57.

The law gives broad powers to school committees, boards of health, and the
Department of Public Health on what is required for entrance and/or continued
presence in the school environment. To the best of my knowledge there is no
state law requiring lead testing on an annual basis. However, the DPH may
have ordered lead testing for school age children in certain cities and towns.

The best advice I can give you is to start with the school and ask why it is
required and on whose authority. I would also contact the local board of
health as it is possible that they may have issued this regulation. 

I will check further with some other contacts I have. 

    the answer from the our school nursing office was that 'it is required by 
    law every year but if he's had it done once before kindergarten age, it is
    okay'.
    
    nice answer, eh ?
    
    pediatrician's office says it is only needed once in the pre-school
    years. (so why they booked us for a third test, i don't know...)
    this pediatrician's office seems to be in an automatic mode of 
    once a year regardless.

    some schools require it. some don't. 
    

I suspect then that this is a school district policy at the school committee
level. BTW - I wouldn't simply take the nurses word. I would go to the 
Superintendent's office and ask for the policy. If they say it's a law
then ask for the Chapter and section (since I can't find it).

    Last year, August 1992, AJ had his pre-K physical.  He too was
    subjected to the usual "booster" shots, oral vaccine and lab work. 
    When the subject of the lead test was addressed, the pedi told me she
    wouldn't do it.  Her reasons seemed logical and valid; he had never
    shown any level of lead, from birth to current, and our home as well as
    all day care providor's homes were lead free.  (our home due to being
    fairly new, the daycare center as well).
    
    I may have it checked until he's out of elementary school on an
    everyother year basis, since the blood is drawn anyway for cholesterol
    screening, what's another vial more or less.  BTW, I do request his
    cholesterol be checked annually, just because of my family's history.
    
    Lyn
    

    
    
    Why can't a child be testing for lead poisoning until they are 10
    months old?  This is what Harvard Community told me and I don't
    understand why.
    
    I am pretty sure that the apartment we rent has some lead paint but the
    landlord says no.  I know, just test it myself but I honestly thought
    we would of moved a long time ago and didn't think about it recently
    until that article in the paper about water having lead in it with
    certain well water and piping.
    
    In any case, there was no lead in the water but still I thought he
    should of been tested and they said no.  
    
    Any thoughts?
    
    cj

Not sure I understand the situation.  It seems much easier and cheaper to 
test for lead paint than to test for lead in the child.  Why not do that, or 
have it done?

Also, the big danger with lead paint is from ingesting flakes of paint.  I 
don't remember when kids start doing things, but I'd say until they are 
somewhat mobile and put things in their mouth, there isn't much danger from 
lead paint.  How long has your child been mobile, and does he put foreign 
objects in his mouth?

Clay

    Also if the paint is in good shape, not peeling or flaking, you don't
    need to worry unless your child chews on the window sills or other
    woodwork. 
    
    meg

I believe it takes a while for lead to build up in a person 
enough to register significantly in the test.

Also, breathing dust from lead paint is sometimes more of a 
worry than a child eating the lead paint.  That's partly why 
de-leading a place can be so expensive... sometimes it's more
of a hazard than old paint that's been painted over but not 
peeling.

-Tanya

P.S. my Dad used to work in a lead factory, and his blood level was 
tested regularly.  Sometimes scare stories that influence legislation 
are taken out of context, since I believe long-term exposure is 
more of a worry.

Remember the hullaballo about taking out asbestos insulation?
Usually more of a hazard than leaving it there!