Conference moira::parenting

    
    I agree with the sister-in-law.  It's more like a favor.  I'm sure if
    he had just said "I'm not working tomorrow, but do you mind if I drop
    off ??????? anyway?  I'd like to play a round of galf with some
    friends." she would have said O.K.  A day-care provider should know
    where both parents are at all times.  My mother-in-law is a day-care
    provider.  She was p*ssed when she found out the parents of one of the
    kids went to the beach for the day once.  What would have happened if
    this kid got injured??  She told them that she wouldn't have minded if
    they asked.
    
    Chris D.

    I just read the note on "etiquette for noting"...forgot to leave my
    name with the original entry...don't want to seem unfriendly!  8-)
    
    Linda
    
    p.s. to .1:  This is why I'm torn -- because I *do* appreciate her
    		 point, however, I am always reachable at my office,
    		 since I work 5 days a week & she has my number.  I
    		 think my husband just thinks it's unfair for her to
    		 dictate under what conditions she covers those 25 hrs &
    		 if we don't use them all & she says no to him -- tough.
    		 (BTW -- she's so sensitive about this because golf is
    		 a sore subject between her & her husband -- to the point
    		 he quit joining the league he was in each spring.)

    We pay for a full time place at the Creche where Iain goes. That means 
    8am to 6pm 5 days a week. We don't use all those hours but that is what
    we pay for. Lately, since the weather started getting better Angus and
    I have taken some days off work to decorate the house or work in the
    garden and we have taken Iain to the creche for the day. We told them
    we would be at home for the day.
    
    This is, however, a professional day care company and not family day
    care.  Nevertheless, I think that if she agreed to care for your child
    25 hours a week then it shouldn't matter what you or your husband do 
    with the time as long as she knows where to contact one of you in case of 
    an emergency. But, since this is a family arrangement, you may not have a 
    "business" type agreement and I know that over the years things tend to
    slide sometimes and assumptions become practices and if no one says
    anything about it then it is tacitly agreed.
    
    I don't think that you are being unreasonable.  If you pay for 25 hours
    you are entitled to use them regardless of whether you are going to
    work or not.  Maybe it is time to review your agreement with her to 
    clear up any misconceptions and maybe put something in writing if 
    there isn't already.
    
    LaDonna

I am on your husband's side.  If you are paying for 25
hours, I believe you can expect 25 hours of daycare to be provided - during the 
agreed upon hours, and of course allowing for flexibility.  

However, I think it is important for you both to tell her what hours you will be 
needing her each week as soon as you know, if they are not the same every week. 
(And being a pilot's wife, I know they can vary a lot).  Otherwise, she is
basically providing a drop-in service and that's a difficult way to live.  If 
you haven't been doing that, I can see that she would be disturbed at the last 
minute-ness of dropping the kid off so he can go play golf.  Is it possible
that is really the issue? 

.1 has an excellent point.  I believe it is an absolute
necessity that a parent be accessible by telephone when a child is at daycare
(or being babysat). If you're going to the beach, you should inform them you 
won't be available by telephone and agree how many times you should call to 
check in, in case the provider needs you.

Just my opinion,
Pat

    Linda,
    
    I agree with you.  I don't think it's her business to know
    that your husband go golfing.  Although she is your S-I-L, but
    she is also operating a business.  She is paid to watch the children.
    As long as the parents can be reached during emergency, there is
    no need for her to know what parents are doing.  Occationally, I
    will take a day off and still send my kids to daycare.  I don't
    see anything wrong with it.  Ask your S-I-L, did she ever hire
    a sitter for couple of hours so that she and her husband can
    go to the movies?  Was her sitter upset?
    
    Wendy

    
    Hmmm.  I didn't see this mentioned anywhere.  Does she give you a break
    since you are relitives?  If she does, then I REALLY agree with your
    s-i-l.
    
    Chris D.

    Linda,
    
    I agree with you.  I wouldn't say it was none of her business where 
    you both are at...as long as she can reach someone that should be all
    she needs though.  If you are paying for her service, I do not think 
    she has a right to tell you which activities are covered and which are
    not...no other daycare I have heard of does this.  I know people that 
    use daycare who don't even work...so that they can have some of their
    own time or to get things done at home/errands...
    
    Linda
    
    

    Time to clear the table and renegotiate.  I'd say something like
    "something small but uncomfortable has come up, and I'd rather define
    all our terms and make sure we're both happy with this situation *now*,
    than have misunderstandings build up and 'bite us' later."  The
    discussion could be fairly informal but when you agree on terms, get it
    in writing.
    
    I think everyone agrees that S-I-L needs a phone # where she can reach
    at least one of you (and it will almost always be your number, so no
    problem), and that she deserves to know the hours as soon as you know.
    Other than that, it's none of her GD business WHAT you do.  Make sure
    she isn't passing along tsk-tsk disapproval vibes to your child, though
    ("The very idea!  Leaving her child so she can go contemplate her
    navel!").
    
    Leslie
    with your alone-time

Whether or not she is giving you a "break," is the only reason that she is 
doing daycare AT ALL because you're relatives?  If so, then it seems to me 
that it's within her prerogative to restrict the circumstances under which she 
will watch your kid, but NOT to charge you for hours that she doesn't watch 
him/her.

Do you get the impression that it was GOLF that was the issue?  Would she have 
been as upset if he had gone to a baseball game, or watched TV at home?  If 
that's the case, then she's projecting personal issues on you, which IMO is 
unfair whether or not she's watching your kid as a favor.

Clay

    Thanks for all the feedback -- we've been feeling pretty badly about
    this.  My sister-in-law is absolutely one of the best people I know --
    I've never seen someone so willing to pitch in and help others out
    (both in family & in the community).  She truly is a wonderful person.
    I think this is part of the reason why this situation bothers us --
    she normally is very accommodating to others & this obviously bothers
    her so much that she has brought it up -- so it means a lot to her.
    
    Regarding "special consideration" -- we always try to give advance
    warning of the days we'll need her (but my husband doesn't get his
    schedule until the Friday before the next week, so at best, she knows
    the Friday before, or by Saturday morning).  When it comes to golf,
    etc., when my husband has given her the schedule, it usually included
    the day(s) he would need her for these things too. If he's ever asked
    on short notice, he's understood when she couldn't accommodate him
    (because she planned a doctor's visit for her boys, etc).  On money:
    we pay what everyone else pays per hour.  In fact, when she first
    decided to up her prices, she told us first & we didn't make a fuss
    about it -- she's worth it -- we just started paying the new rate.
    
    I really think she's getting to a point in her life where she's trying
    to find a happier balance between what she does for work & giving
    herself more personal time to do some things she's denied herself, 
    because of choosing the job of full-time, at home parent.  When she
    hears about others HAVING the time to do personal activities, I think
    it just re-inforces her frustration of trying to find that happy medium
    for herself.
    
    Oh well.
    
    Linda

    I'm on noone's side, it sounds as though you need to talk it out with
    her.  I think it should be easily resolved.
    
    Mike

I can play psychologist and speculate on several reasons she might be feeling
this way, but leaving the psychology out there are several issues:

(1) What is her standard policy that she applies to all customers?  If she
provides child care only when all parents work (or perhaps are sick?) then
so be it.  But then what about doctor appointments?  Perhaps she excludes any
recreational activity - but what about a work-related social?

(2) Does she provide child care by the hour?  Any provisions (i.e. minimum
hours per week, minimum notice for cancellation/changes)?

Given your good relationship and your strong desire to keep it that way, I
would suggest that you approach her and express concern over the misunder-
standing of the policy, and ask her to clarify her policy for her customers.
Position your concern in a positive manner and be ready to be accomodating and
compromising, but expect the same in return.

If she is working under #2 above, she has no basis to tell you what you can
do while you are paying for her child care services.  Obviously she needs to
know how to reach one of you.  It appears that the nature of your husband's
job would make it difficult to reach him anyways, so perhaps he should hide
the fact that he takes recreation once-in-a-while, or you two should invest in
a beeper!

Kristen

This note is being entered for a member of our community who wishes to 
remain anonymous at this time.

      Carol duBois, PARENTING co-moderator

******************************************************************

My son is in a licensed daycare center; he is 5.  Earlier this week he fell
from the top bar of the swingset at the center.  Generally children are not
discouraged from doing much of anything during the outdoor play time, and
he is not the first child to get hurt.  I have been there when children have
come in with bloodied lips and noses etc.  He fell a distance of 4.5 to 5 feet
to packed sand, landed on his hip and had to be carried into the center by
his teacher, because he was unable to walk.

After he had his lunch then someone beside his teacher called to tell me of
the incident and suggest that I take him to be examined by a doctor.

I have been very pleased with every aspect of this center, this is probably
the first negative experience ever.  I have several concerns, and questions
and need opinions..

Should I ask the center to assume the cost of the medical care, or at least
what ever the insurance doesn't cover.  I also lost a day's pay because I had
to stay home with him to keep him quiet, and will lose another half day 
when he visits the orthopedic doctor for a follow up.

Fortunately he didn't break anything, but did bruise his hip bone.  I had him
transported by ambulance, something his teacher seemed to think not necessary.
But with the height from which he fell, I feel he shouldn't have been moved
at ALL, but the ambulance called right then and there.  She actually had him
attempt to walk after the fall, and he couldn't support his weight and fell
again!

I want to speak to the director of the center, she is generally good to talk
to when I have concerns, but not sure which approach I want to use.
Suggestions?  I returned him to the center today, and asked the teacher to try
and keep him quiet, and discourage him from climbing to the top bar.  She
probably won't do anything differently, IMO. 

I question the teacher's judgement in moving him in the first place, it would
seem she ought to have some basic first aid training, and know not to move
an injured person.

Any input would be appreciated.  The center is in MA and handles children
from birth to kindergarten, divided by age group.

    These things are always judgement calls ... lots of kids fall from
    those kind of heights and nothing is wrong apart from bruises ...
    others fall and break bones ...
    
    First reaction sounds like the centre was negligent, but second
    thoughts make one wonder.  Put yourself genuinely in their shoes ...
    
    . Would you have let him climb ?  First time ... with help; second
    	probably ... with hesitation; third probably ...
    
    . What would you have done for him medically ?  If he stopped
        crying relatively quickly your reaction would probably be
        to keep an eye on him.
    
    . Would you have called a parent right away if their child fell
    	... YES ...  This is probably the only area in which they were
    	really negligent to leave it until after lunch to call you.
    
    I don't see that you have any claim against them for lost time at
    work because they weren't negligent.  Maybe lacking a little 
    supervision ... but not negligent.  Your son could have just as easily
    had a similar accident with you supervising him in a playground.
    This is just one of the risks one takes as a part of balancing
    job and family.
    
    Stuart

I'm inclined to agree with Stuart.  You may not agree with the decisions
that the daycare personnel made, but they sound basically reasonable.
And as Stuart points out, accidents can happen anywhere -- just because
this one happened at daycare doesn't seem to justify an expectation that
the daycare will assume part of the costs.

	-Neil

depending on what the costs are you may want to present your case to an 
attorney skilled in this area of law and see if you have a case. This most 
likely won't cost you anything. If the attorney feels you may be right but 
the costs aren't worth it then you may wish to pursue it with the provider
directly. In any event I would ask for a meeting with the director to discuss
your concerns about the manner in which they acted. In fact, many day care 
centers now have a board of directors to handle policy matters and you may wish
to request policy action in order to prevent any future problems.

	Kids will be kids and they'll all get their share of hurts
	over the years.  But what happens when a child gets hurt
	at a daycare setting or when they are in someone else's care
	seems to affect some of us parents more than if they did the
	same thing while we were there !!

	I had a similar experience with my son about 1-1/2 yrs ago
	(he was then @ 6 yrs.old).  He had been playing, doing
	something he shouldn't have and the adults were busy else-
	where and not watching.  The daycare was VERY good about calling 
	me almost immediately after - my problem is that it was one of
	those rare days when I went OUT to lunch - and telling me
	what they saw/believed happened and how my son looked.  They
	asked if I wanted THEM to take him to the Hospital ER to get
	checked out or did I want to come myself (I was only @ 25 minutes
	away).  We agreed they'd keep him quietly sitting and I'd
	be right out.

	When I got there, I immediately called the dr.'s office and
	we saw him, then proceeded to see an oral surgeon.  Through
	all of this, the daycare center and I agreed that we'd let
	my regular insurance take care of what it would and then the
	center re-imbursed me for the remaining balance.  This wasn't
	in any way given by them as admission or construed by me as 
	"they were wrong" but their way of showing me how badly they 
	felt that my son had gotten hurt and that they did take some
	responsibility in regard to the accident.

	I think if you talk with the daycare supervisor, you can
	approach it the same way - ask if they have insurance
	coverage (this place had some special kind of rider beyond
	their regular policy to cover things like this) and if 
	they'd be willing to share the costs.  If you weren't
	comfortable with the way they handled you/your child after
	the incident, be honest with the supervisor and tell him/her
	that "I would have felt better if you had......" so they
	know how you feel and what to do in the future.  You can
	also ASK what kind of First Aid training everyone there has.
	And hopefully, you'll avoid any more major mishaps in the
	near future !!!!!!!!

	Debbi

re .16:

> depending on what the costs are you may want to present your case to an 
> attorney skilled in this area of law and see if you have a case. 

It seems to me that the first question one should ask oneself is whether one
has been wronged.  If the answer is yes, then the *second* question is
whether the legal system will make it possible to receive compensation
for that wrong.

Perhaps it wasn't your intention to suggest that the first question should
be what sort of legal recovery might be possible; but that was the impression
I received, and I find that position rather troubling.

	-Neil

    Thanks Neil ...
    
    I was bothered when I read that ...
    
    The first question should be has my child suffered anything other
    than what would be a fairly typical childhood injury ... i.e.
    is he likely to be going to doctors and have operations for years.
    
    The second question is have you been wronged either deliberately
    or through gross negligence or incompetence ?
    
    You were inconvenienced, but, say your child came down with some
    illness while at the day care ... you'd be similarly inconvenienced
    and maybe moreso ...
    
    So, if you can answer the first two questions in all sincerity that
    you've been wronged by the day care ... then you talk to a lawyer.
    BUT beware, there are lawyers who will go after anything on the off-
    chance of raking in some cash ... and remember that in going after
    the day care with a lawyer, you are as likely as not to end up forcing
    a) the closure of that day care
    b) an increase in liability insurance for day cares
    c) an increase in day care costs.
    
    
    There are some things in this world that we have to accept the risk for
    and except for the gross negligence or malicious acts of others, that
    means MOST things!
    
    Let's not forget the important thing in this really should be to
    ensure that the risks for other children are reduced ... so your
    discussion should be with the administration and say that you are
    concrened about the level of supervision for children *CLIMBING* on
    high equipment.  If you indicate that you are afraid of further
    incidents then they should arrange better supervision or less
    dangerous equipment.
    
    Most important though ... how is your son doing now ???
    
    Stuart

    
    I have to agree with Stuart and a few of the other replies...
    Please don't take offense, but you may be overreacting a little...
    (I know what that is like....as you can see by my thousands of
    replies....:^) I do it all the time)
    
    Comment on the ambulance....
    My husband is a paramedic in Atlanta...he's sees stuff happen
    to kids all the time, about 1 out of 10 require an ambulance...
    all others could have been transported by their parents and
    saved them and insurance $410 per trip.  Was the situation 
    really life threatening?  (After hearing all the stories of 
    people using ambulances for hang nails....it's a sore spot
    with me 8*)) But none of us were there so it was your call....
    I hope I wasn't stepping out of line...8*)
    
    If your son stopped crying after a period, he probably wasn't
    hurt that bad (thank goodness that was true) and you can't blame
    the daycare for moving or trying to get him to walk....probably
    a hundred have fallen like he did with no adverse affect and
    cried longer.  BUT they should have called YOU!....
    
    I asked our daycare upfront what their policy was on an injured
    child....the owner used to be a paramedic so I feel real comfortable
    with my daycare...
    
    As a matter of fact last Monday one of the 10 month old babies
    started screaming....they knew he was in pain but were not sure
    why or how.  They called his mom and layed him in his bed. After a 
    time, he started continuously vomiting....his mom was on the way.
    It was about 6 minutes later and she walked in..any longer and they
    were going to call an ambulance.  The mother was
    wondering if she should take him to the dr.  The owner said,
    take him to the ER...this is definately something more than a virus.
    At 2 am they did emergency surgery...seems his intestine turned
    into itself and was pressing on his stomach causing the vomiting.
    Thank goodness the daycare people told the mom to take him to the
    ER.
    
    I think people should discuss up front how they handle emergency
    situations with their daycare people...

    
    Boy, some people are pretty quick to jump to a legal resolution.  I
    waould at least talk to the daycare about covering the expenses first
    before I jump for a suit!!!!
    
    I personally think that if the kids o.k. and the daycare covers the
    MEDICAL expenses after the insurance, then that's that.
    
    Chris D.  

I was NOT advocating a suit. Lawyers (at least reputable ones) routinely provide
advice to people on what their rights are under the law. The basenoter should
clearly understand their rights before advancing any discussion with the daycare 
center. This is a protection to both parties. 

BTW - I did have a similar occurance. My daughter at age 5 fell from a 
jungle-jim on the school playground. I was called immediately but no medical
personnel were called despite the fact that she her scalp was bleeding. I
immediately took her to her physician. Who cleaned the wound and examined her.
He determined that, to the best of his knowledge, she had a cut and a bruise
and that was all but to watch her for signs of a concussion for the next 48
hours. A week later, while washing my daughter's hair, my wife discovered a
depression in my daughter's scalp. After further examination by the doctor
and a neurosurgeon in Boston it was determined that she had suffered a
depressed skull fracture. Could any of the situations involved in this have
been avoided? Sure. Was anyone negligent? I didn't know. I spoke to an
attorney and asked advice. I'm a big boy and can draw my own conclusions
from that advice as to whether to proceed with any action. I determined,
as an INFORMED individual, that my only action would be to meet with the
school principal and request that the jungle-jim be removed from its asphalt
surface and placed over an area that contained sand to reduce the potential
for a fall in the future. 

P.S. to .22

	I am a school committee member and you can be sure that the board of
directors and/or the center director has already consulted their attorney in
order to understand their rights and liabilities on this issue as well. 

    The hitch is that there are attorneys and there are attorneys.
    
    There are some who will indeed give you a genuine honest opinion on
    whether you have grounds for any kind of action, and then there are
    others who will attempt to have a go for the sake of having a go.
    
    But it still boils down to a matter of negligence, willful neglect
    and so on.  If you can answer that then why take more time off work
    to see a lawyer when you are already concerned about taking time off
    work !  If you aren't convinced that they were negligent then there
    is no point consulting a lawyer.
    
    If people want to bring cases against day cares and so on for cases
    where the day care didn't act a lot differently than you would have
    then the answer will be simple ... fewer and fewer day cares ...
    more and more expensive day care due to lack of spaces and higher
    liability premiums ... and richer and richer lawyers ... and more
    and more limited liability clauses in daycare contracts.
    
    You weigh it all up.
    
    Stuart
    
    
    
    

A response from the anonymous noter.

      Carol duBois, PARENTING co-moderator

******************************************************************
    
    First and most important, since this seems to be going in one 
    direction, I DO NOT want to sue anyone.  I'm no lawyer, but can see 
    enough to know there is nothing here to base any kind of legal action.  
    I did call the MA office for Children, anonymously, and ask what if any 
    part of the Center's insurance would provide for this kind of thing.  
    Their answer was none.  The insurance the state requires is not for 
    accidents that occur on premises, but many providers do take a policy 
    covering accidents.  They were very helpful and cooperative, and 
    offered to investigate the center, which I promptly discouraged, in 
    fact I refused to identify them by name, except to identify the town 
    they are in.
    
    I have in the past lodged complaints against two providers, one a home 
    care situation, and the other a center.  Both were investigated, both 
    are still licensed and operating. In fact the homecare provider is 
    still on the Digital Referral list, even though I've told them that I 
    have lodged a complaint regarding physical abuse against the woman!  
    Kind of shows how much impact a complaint makes!
    
    My son *appears* to be recovering nicely, but I will follow up next 
    week, per the hospital's instructions, with his orthopedic specialist.  
    He still seems to be a little cautious of running and jumping, as if it 
    might still hurt a bit.  We have yet to determine what if any part of 
    the bill will not be picked up by the Insurance Company (HMO).
    
    re .20, I have a problem with your thinking that a fall from 4.5 to 5 
    feet equates to calling an ambulance for a "hangnail".  He landed on 
    his hip, tried to get up by himself to walk, was crying, and fell again 
    because (and this was his teacher's words) because he couldn't bear 
    weight on it.  Every simple first aid chart, including the one 
    published in Woman's Day recently says NOT to move someone who is 
    injured, except to remove them from danger.  Would you want the 
    responsibility for moving a child with a possible spinal cord injury, 
    broken pelvis, or hip?  I wouldn't, and didn't!  I actually told the 
    teacher when she called to call the ambulance then and there, but she 
    said she would wait until I arrived.  I work a half hour from day-care, 
    and she was still sort of not excited about me calling the ambulance.  
    (By the way he was still crying when I got there)  I had been in touch 
    with the pedi's office before I left the office, and asked them if I 
    should stop at the office, and the pedi said no, that an X-ray would be 
    the only sure diagnostic tool.  We don't have X-ray eyes, yes we might 
    be supermoms, but can't see if something is broken, or dislocated, and 
    I have no guilt about calling the ambulance and would do it again!  I 
    also know for a fact the Paramedics class themselves as "ParaGods!" 
    and find minor injuries "boring".  The two young (assume rookies) who 
    are by the way, full time firefighter-EMT's were caring, sensitive and 
    very courteous.  They even gave my son a small white teddy bear for 
    comfort to keep.
    
    I only want to approach this with the staff of the day-care center in a 
    positive manner.  Perhaps suggesting another material beside sand to 
    put below the swings and climber.  I thought someone had made 
    suggestions in the previous version of Parenting.  Does someone recall? 
    Was is mulch or grass or something else?
    
    I returned him to day-care yesterday, and when I picked him up last 
    night he and the others were in fact climbing, but no one seemed to be 
    on the top bar.  Perhaps they have already addressed the issue?  The 
    staffing seemed to be a body or two above the usual as well.
    
    The director seems to have been out most of this week in a class, 
    however is keeping in touch by phone.  I know she's been informed, 
    because there was a call from her on my answering machine before I got 
    home from the hospital Tuesday asking how he was doing.  His own 
    teacher called to ask how he was doing the day we were home.
    
    I have been in touch with the director by phone, but this sort of issue 
    needs to be addressed in a face to face conversation, in as positive a 
    way as can be done.  Thanks for the suggestions, please keep the input 
    coming.  My intent is to resolve the problem, not create a legal one!
    
    THE MOM!!

    Thank you for your response ...
    
    I recognise that it was a bit of a rat-hole but the idea of consulting
    lawyers for any and everything does gall me because it serves to make
    lawyers rich and us poor!  Yes there are things for which we need
    the law  ...  but this didn't seem to be one of them.
    
    It certainly sounds like there are four real concerns regarding the
    day care ...
    
    1.  better supervision for children on climbing equipment
    2.  other materials than sand underneath climbing equipment (like
    	sponges ?)
    3.  more prompt notification of parents
    4.  procedures to follow in the event of medical emergencies /
    	accidents
    
    Stuart

I would guess that sand is one of the best materials to be under
this type of equipment.  Perhaps they just need to rake it more
often so it won't get as hard.

     Carol

    re: .25
    
    I will not rathole this topic but I do feel your comment:
    
    "I know for a fact that Paramedics classify themselves as
    Para GODS"
    
    was uncalled for....I do not see how criticizing paramedics
    has anything to do with your problem, nor how you could be any kind of
    an expert on paramedics.  My comment regarding hang nails was
    just to point out that people die because ambulances aren't available
    for life threatening calls....just last week a home delivery died
    because the ambulance had to be dispatched from another station
    farther away while the paramedics that should have taken the call
    were helping a woman whose son banged his head on the table that
    didn't even draw blood, knock him out or barely cried - But she
    had to have him transported to the hospital in an ambulance. The boy
    left the hospital before the paramedic was finished with the paperwork
    
    Even through calls like this, my husband's company is nothing but
    professional to the patient....but how would you feel knowing
    that your baby's life could have been saved if the other woman
    would have taken her son to the hospital herself because it was
    not a critical situation?  Don't you think you'd get a little uptight
    with non-critical calls?  I tried to make my comments so you wouldn't 
    take them too personally...but I guess I failed....as I said in my 
    note....none of us were there and it was your call.  I find it
    interesting that the daycare people weren't too excited either....
    I retract my comments....and apologize if I have offended you...
    
    Please be sensitive that some people see situations differently
    and not everyone is going to agree with you....I am sensitive to
    emergency calls because of my husband's job...and I have never
    considered him a PARA GOD...nor does he consider himself....I
    do not believe you should stereotype ALL paramedics....
    
    Kristen
                                                           

There is a special type of sand used on playgrounds that is considered to be
best for impact-resistance. It doesn't harden when wet and is usually soft and
pliant. Also the depth of the sand is important as well.

    
    Not sure if this is the right spot for this, but didn't notice anything
    else on this topic (in here anyways), so here goes. Mods, please feel
    free to move this if necessary.
    
    
    Sending your child to daycare - Finding new daycare
    ____________________________________________________
    
    For the last 6 mos I have had my son alternating between my best friend
    and my step-mom (Grammie) for daycare. It has been a little out of my
    way, travel wise, but something I was willing to deal with, being as I 
    felt comfortable having him with them, and not ready to hand him over 
    to strangers. He is 9 mos old now. Well, my girlfriend is due for her 
    second child Aug 11th, and I am in need for new daycare, and nervous 
    as heck!
    
    This is my first time having to find "outside the family" daycare, and
    my husband and I (him more than I, beleive it or not) are very nervous
    about the idea, but we have no choice.  I guess I feel a little better
    with him being older now and all, but its still scary. After all the
    horror stories they show on TV of child abusers etc..
    
    I realise there are many wonderful daycare providers out there, or at 
    least thats what friends and relatives say,(but of course theirs are full!)
    but how do you know whos who?? Lets see if I can come up with some specific
    questions here:
    
    *What questions to ask?
    
    *Do I look for daycare closer to home or work?? (I have a 35 min commute
     from Leominster to Maynard via Rt 2) *What are the pro's and cons to 
     your choice?
    
    *What rates are reasonable for a 9 mos old?

    *Any tips on making this transition easier on all of us???

    All your input will be appreciated and welcome. This is more difficult
    than I thought it would be. 

	Chris

    Hi Chris,
    
    Rely on the Digital-funded service for referrals to licensed providers. 
    Licensing guarantees you certain standards and periodic inspections. 
    You can also use non-licensed daycare, but then you are on your own.
    The referral service can provide the Massachusetts daycare regulations
    and standards, so you can read them.
    
    I recommend daycare close to home if you and another person (eg spouse)
    will share pickup and drop off.  It also gives you greater flexibility
    if you change job location or if you are sick at home but want to leave
    your child at daycare.  I don't like the idea of inflicting my commute
    on my daughter.  One of my coworkers brings her son close to work.  It
    gives them more time together and she can visit him at lunch,
    particularly if he is not well or has a problem.  Your mileage may
    vary.
    
    Rates are completely dependent on the town where you choose daycare. 
    When you get referrals from the agency, you will quickly see the
    prevailing rates.  In my town, licensed family daycare is $40 to $50
    less than a daycare center.  
    
    I recommend that you visit quite a few daycare situations.  You will
    learn about your preferances and needs, not only hours and cost, but
    style.
    
    In PARENTING, parents have often expressed your concerns about the
    safety and wellbeing of children in daycare.  I believe that the horror
    stories are rare and highly sensationalized.  I believe that most
    daycare providers are well-intentioned.  However, there are many subtle
    things that make a big difference in the environment, particulary the
    ratio of caregivers to children (including part time children), and the 
    age distribution.  It is highly unlikely that your child will be
    grossly mistreated, particularly if you ask many questions, talk to
    other parents, and trust your gut instinct. You do the best you can. 
    If later on you really feel the need for a change, realize that your
    child will adapt in a few weeks.
    
    Best of luck,
    L

    Here's another note slightly off the topic of the basenote (maybe
    should should change the title to Daycare Worries :-))...
    
    My son is 2.8.  He went to a WONDERFUL family daycare provider full-time
    from 4 mos. to age 2, then part time (and part-time at a daycare center) 
    from age 2 until this month.  Now he goes full-time to the daycare center
    and is enjoying it very much.
    
    I'm expecting another baby in February, and will probably only be able
    to stay home the same 4 months I did last time, if that much.  So now
    I'm wondering what to do about daycare with two kids...
    
    I don't want to put the baby in a daycare center.  (I really think a
    baby needs one-on-one care).  I could look for another family daycare
    person for the baby, but due to my husband's work situation, I have to
    do all the daycare driving.  My gut feel is that getting two kids
    out of the house in the morning, and dropping off/picking up two kids
    at two different daycares, is going to be very difficult and time-
    consuming.  Not to mention the expense of double daycare.  Do people
    agree?
    
    So it seems like my only other option is to look for a live-out nanny
    to come to our house (I don't want an au-pair or live-in nanny living
    with us).  Never having had a nanny, I can only think of a number of
    benefits, such as reduced schedule pressure, ability for Marc to take
    advantage of certain stay-at-home-kid activities, such as story hour,
    etc., but none of the drawbacks.  What are the drawbacks of a nanny?  
    
    Another major benefit I see is the possibility of enrolling Marc in a
    good educational-type nursery school in September '93 (he'll be 4),
    rather than a daycare center, which I could never do as long as I'm
    working full-time.
    
    Can people help me sort out the best approach?
    
    Thanks!
    

    Personally, with an infant and a preschooler, I would have someone come
    to the house.  It seems easy enough to do.  I have three neighbors on
    my little circle alone who do this (three different sitters).  They
    just advertise in the local paper and start interviewing!  If we had
    an infant, this would be my route.  I would not want to put an infant
    in a large daycare center for my own personal reasons.  This way you
    can take Marc to the center a few days or he can be at home, too.  Much
    less morning hassle! 
    
    My husband has to leave the house at 7:15 - too early for the boys(5&7) 
    to head to daycare, so I bring them at 8:00.  He gets home at 4:30, so he
    picks them up.  I prefer to have them at daycare only for as long as
    necessary! - I love my daycare, but my kids love to be home more!
    
    Good luck!
    
    -sandy
    

    One issue is, are you going to take the older boy out of his
    school if you get an in-home caregiver?  If not, then the expense
    is going to be about even.  
    
    Getting two kids out of the house is a bit more of a challenge
    than getting one, but it's manageable, especially if you can get
    the older one to help with the younger one.  Two dropoffs can be a
    pain, but I found I got used to it pretty quickly. 
    
    You might be able to find an in-home daycare who is willing to take
    your older son to his daycare center.  I know at least one of my
    neighbors does this for the kids she cares for (no, she doesn't
    have any openings, unfortunately).  Caregivers in the neighborhood
    of daycare centers are more likely to offer this service, so you
    might want to talk to your son's school to see if they know of any
    contacts. 
    
    It actually gets worse when the older one hits regular school. At
    least now he's taken care of for the full day.  When he's in
    school, the school hours won't correspond to any known schedule --
    in all likelihood the bus will come later than you can afford to
    wait to go to work, and then he'll be home by 3 p.m. and you'll
    either have to find care for the afternoon, or make arrangements
    about your hours, or go to the split shift strategy (one parent
    takes to the bus and daycare, the other parent picks up). 
    
    --bonnie

    I went through the same decision process several months ago and it is a
    very tough decision.  I have both my girls 4yrs and 8mos going to a
    wonderful daycare center but I would prefer having the baby going to a
    family daycare situation.
    
    When my first was a baby she went to family daycare.  This was ok but I
    found that it could become inconvenient when the babysitter became sick
    or had an emegency and cold not watch her.  I also found that she would
    actually get less attention from the sitter because they would be in
    their own homes doing their house cleaning, shopping, etc.  
    
    When I moved Alicia to the daycare center (at age 3) I noticed a real
    difference in her.  She loves daycare.  She gets to play with her
    friends and do all kinds of fun things.
    
    When I had Jessica I decided to put her in the same daycare since my
    mother drops them off for me.  She doesn't have to be at work until
    9:00 and I start at 7:15.  Having someone come to my home is not an
    option either since Alicia loves daycare.
    
    I have no complaints at the care Jessica is getting at the center but
    their strict policies drive me crazy. I understand the policies but
    what a pain.  For example,  Alicia and Jessie got pink eye several
    weeks ago.  Alicia got it first so I called the doctor and he
    prescribed drops for her and I kept her home for several days. I had to
    end up taking Alicia to the doctors because I had to have a release for
    her to return.  Next Jessica got it.  I took her to the doctors so I
    would have an excuse.  I was told to use Alicia's drops so I wouldn't
    have to buy more.  When I took Jessie back to daycare they refused to
    give her the drops since they were prescribed for Alicia.  A family
    daycare person would have given them to her.  
    
    Its a hard decision no matter what you do.
    
    Angie

    
    
    I found my daycare provider through DEC referral Familyworks.
    This person has been wonderful.  But she runs everything by
    the book.  If my son is on medication I have to fill out a 
    form that has the prescription number and the amount and time(s)
    of day the medication is to be given.   She enters on the bottom
    of the form on a chart the amount and time that she has given
    the medication.
    
    Jeanne
    
    
    

    If I get an in-home caregiver, I see no reason to continue to send Marc
    45 hrs/week to the center he goes to now.  That would be part of my
    motivation for getting an in-home provider in the first place.  I would
    either cut down his hours there to a few mornings a week, or I would
    find a "traditional" nursery school for him.  Depending on hours/location,
    I could drop him off at nursery school, and the nanny would pick him up.  
    
    What are typical hours of a nursery/pre-school?  What does it cost?  
    (For a full-time daycare center in Nashua, I would expect to pay about
    $90-100/week for a 4-year-old).
    
    Also, I'm curious what the differences are between a daycare center and
    a nursery school?  (other than hours and cost).  

    By the time my son was 4, he'd have been climbing the walls at home. 
    He really needed the social interaction and the structured program of
    the nursery school.  He went to a program at Hobby Horse in Nashua. 
    They had classes part of the day and organized play, quiet time, and
    such for the rest of the day.  He would up going there for Nursery,
    prekindergarten (4 year olds) and kindergarten.  As I recall, it was
    about $80/week three years ago.  
    
    The only difference I usually assume between a nursery school and a
    daycare center is that nursery schools usually start at age 3 and I
    would assume a daycare center would start younger, at 18 months or even
    tiny infants.  I assume by "traditional" nursery school you mean one
    that doesn't have a full day program?? Or is there another definition
    I'm not familiar with? 
    
    --bonnie

    Caileigh has been in both a daycare center and two "traditional" nursery
    schools.  In fact, Paige may switch to a traditional nursery school
    this fall when C. starts kindergarten.  We're also trying to figure out
    what to do for daycare after the summer.  Anyway...
               
    Nursery school is typically two or three days a week for 2 1/2 to three
    hours.  The big differences we found were: 
    
    (1) The teachers, while 
    wonderful, did not develop the type of relationship with and understanding
    of the individual children that the daycare teachers did
    (understandable given they usually deal with several groups of children
    for fewer hours each).
    
    (2)  The time the kids ARE there is more "packed" with all the activity
    in that short period of time. Caileigh never got a chance to be bored
    and was consistently disappointed when school was over.
    
    (3)  Most of the other mothers either did not work or worked in
    non-professional jobs that gave them the type of flexibility they
    wanted to be home days with their children.  Therefore, there were a lot
    of invitations to play at someone else's house, to start playgroups on
    non-school days, or to attend weekday birthday parties.  This is okay
    if your nanny can participate in your place and you don't mind missing
    some of these activities.
    
    (4)  The nursery school teachers tended to be older and more prone to
    gender stereotyping. 
    --
    Caileigh has always loved school and has enjoyed both types of
    preschool (daycare and nursery).  I think she liked nursery school
    best when I was home, but likes full-day school better than a combination 
    of nursery and sitter.  
    
    A lot depends on your child and the nanny you are able to find.  For
    kids who find it tough separating or being away from home, the shorter 
    nursery school day may make it easier, but the long time between school
    days can make re-acclimating each week tough.
    
    This is all from our limited experience.  Hope it hopes.  In general, 
    I think nannies make sense when a second child comes along 
    and half-day preschool is a good transition for a child who is used to 
    daycare.
    
    
    -Tracy
    
    
      

    Deb,
    
    I got a live-out nanny right after my daughter was born.  My son
    was 26 months old at the time and was attending daycare center full-time.
    
    For the first few months, I continued to send Eric to the center
    full-time.  I wanted one-on-one attention for Monica.
    Then, when Monica was 4 months old, I cut down Eric's daycare center 
    hours to 2 days per week.  It worked out great!  
    
    When Eric turned 3, I started him at a Montessori
    preschool.   The Montessori class ran 3 days a week (Tuesday,
    Wednesday and Thursday).  Eash class is 2.5 hours long.  He was in
    the afternoon class.  He continued attending the daycare
    center on Monday and Friday.  This was great for Eric.  He
    got lots of stimulation from both schools.  And he got to stay home
    3 mornings.    We kept this schedule for a year. 
    
    Since Montessori school is closed for the summer,  I now have Eric in 
    daycare center full-time.  He will be 4 years old this month and gets 
    bored easily at home.  I also started my 21 months old at the same 
    center.  She was terribly bored at home.  And now the weather is nice, 
    the daycare center provides lots of outdoor activities.
    Originally, I only planned to have her at the center 2 days a week
    and cut down my nanny's hours to 3 days a week.  My plan didn't
    work out with my nanny (she is only interested in full-time
    employment).  Therefore, Monica also goes to the center full-time now.     
    
    I plan to get my nanny back when Montessori
    school opens in September.    By then, Eric will be in Montessor
    school 5 mornings program.  He will spend the afternoons at
    home.  And I will cut down Monica's daycare center hours to
    2 days a week.
    
    As you see, it can be really complicated.  But it really work
    out well.  Both kids have no problems switching the environments.

    In response to .32...
    
    I have both of my boys in the same day care center (in Landover, MD). 
    My oldest is four years old and the youngest is 5 months old.  The four
    year old, Alex, has been in this center for two years now and I am very
    comfortable with the center, staff, etc.
    
    I was kind of nervous about exposing a very young baby to all the other
    infants (there are nine infants to three staff members) but everything
    has worked well so far.  The baby, Noah, has been in day care for two
    months now.  I am amazed at how much it has stimulated him!  We had a
    great time together when I was home with him but I still had chores,
    etc. to do and did not spend all my daylight hours playing with him. 
    That's exactly what they do at day care; either the staff or the older
    babies interact with him constantly.  He is so full of energy and so
    full of himself now that it is amazing.  He is like a different baby!
    
    Both of my children have benefited greatly from day care; they have
    become more outgoing, more vocal, more social little people.  Don't get
    me wrong, there have been some downs too; i.e., biting episodes with
    the eldest, playground accidents, etc.  All in all I would not hesitate
    to do it all over again.  I never tried the home care route so I can't
    comment or contrast the two.  I can, however, put a plug in for this
    day care center....
    
    If there is anyone in the Washington, DC (Maryland suburban) area who
    is looking for an excellent day care center I can recommend:
    
    Metro East Play and Learn Children's Center
    8400 Corporate Drive
    Suite 109
    Landover, MD 20785
    301-459-1023
    
    The director's name is Pam Pizzano.  The day care center takes children
    age 8 weeks to 5 years.
    
    Feel free to send me mail if you need more detailed info or have
    specific questions I might be able to answer.
    
    A MEPAL Parent,
    
    Kathy Schlickenmaier
    GUCCI::SCHLICKENMAI
    or Kathy Schlickenmaier @COP
    

	Not sure if this is the right place for this reply, moderator
	please move if appropriate.  Thanks.

	This is kind of long, but I've got a lot to say!!!  :*)

	I am a new mother.  This is my third week back at work full
	time.  I wanted to hear from others about their experiences
	from daycare.

	My 13 week old son is in a daycare center.  There are about 11
	young infants there with 3 providers.  I am having a tough
	time letting them take care of him because I know that no one
	can do the job as well as mom can!

	The first week I went home really upset one day because of the
	way they dressed him.  I had him in an outfit with some
	moccasins on his feet with an undershirt on (onsie) as he
	wears one everyday.  Well, when I picked Bradley up he had
	a new outfit on.  What they had done was put the pants on
	over his moccasins (the pants had feet in them...they didn't
	bother to remove the shoes) and now the pants barely came 
	over his bellybutton...his stomach was 	hanging out because 
	they didn't put on his undershirt!  Needless to say, I drove 
	home in tears (and it still upsets me)!!  The next
	day when I regained my composure I sat down with the director
	and told her what happened.  I also complained about some
	other things I was unhappy about. I complained that he came
	home with soiled clothes  (dried formula on his shirt, from
	spitup that wasn't cleaned up).  This never happened when I
	took care of him!

	Well, a week and a half later things are better.  I now 
	shove the undershirt in the sleeve of the clean outfit so
	it doesn't get lost, they feed him with a bib to keep his 
	outfit clean and I tell the provider immediately if I don't 
	like something.  

	NOW this week, they are feeding Bradley ever 2 hours!!  He is eating
	28oz a day plus nursing 2 times.  I called my dr. (I was
	concerned that gosh this kid eats so much maybe he needs
	some food!) and he said, 'you are feeding him way too much!'
	
	I now instructed the daycare to feed him not more than every
	3-4 hours and if he gets cranky it's because he is tired not
	hungry..... put him to sleep DO NOT GIVE HIM A BOTTLE!  Day
	2...they tried to feed him a bottle after 2 hours AND THEN
	decided oh he just ate I bet he is tired (after feeding him
	an ounce, put him to bed.)  Now, I told the head of the infant
	room twice not to feed Bradley more than every 3-4 hours and I
	even wrote it down on his sheet!  She leaves at 3, this happened
	at 3:45.

	I know one mother (who's baby is the same age as mine) who
	gave a schedule from 8-5 which included nap time, feeding
	time and playtime!  I thought that was extreme because when
	I was at home I just fed Bradley when he was hungry - not
	by the clock.  Maybe I should resort to this though.

	Oh yea, one more nitpick...I overheard a mother the otherday
	telling the providers to, 'make sure you wipe "Bobby's" nose
	when it needs it'.  Now come on, do you really have to tell
	them that?  I guess so.

	I am really trying to be fair to this daycare center.  Everyone
	seems to really like it and they have a great references.  I know many
	Digital parents have their kids enrolled here....a lot have 2
	kids there!  I keep telling myself this place must be good but
	I am still not convinced.

	One last thing, since I work so close to the daycare I can go
	over and visit often.  What really bothers me is (I'm there 
	often so I see a lot that goes on) is feeding time.  They feed
	the babies and carry on conversations with the other providers
	about their weekend or whatever totally ignoring the baby they
	are feeding then when they are done.....plop...puts them right
	in the swing!!  Their 1/2 hour is over with that baby they have
	to now pay attention to another baby.   

	Am I being too picky?  Maybe I just came back to work too soon.

	Lynne	

    Lynne,
    
    You are being a normal first time mom with worries over her baby!  That
    said, you need to trust your instincts and judgement.  If YOU are not
    happy, move your son!  You will not be able to work, sleep, whatever,
    if you are worrying about your daycare situation.
    
    I did not have to work after my kids were born, so I don't know exactly
    what you are feeling.  After you've been a mom awhile, you will settle
    in to a more comfortable niche and find that sometimes it's OK to leave
    a dirty shirt on the baby when things are extremely busy.  You will
    have to decide what you can and cannot live with. 
    
    Good luck!  And my rule of thumb has always been "go with your gut
    feelingS!!"
    
    -sandy
    

    *I* don't think you're being too picky... altho you*will* have to make
    some compromises using daycare.
    
    Despite "everyone else's" satisfaction with this place, if it doesn't
    work for you, keep looking!  Have you considered an "in-home"
    situation?  I called many friends for ideas and references, and found
    that worked best.  Also, if there's more than one working mother in
    your neighborhood, you could share a nanny.
    
    Having daycare you feel comfortable is (IMO) the single most important
    thing you can do for yourelf, your family, and your child.  Without it,
    you'll be a nervous wreck.
    
    Jamd

Hi Lynne,

On some counts, I don't think you're being picky at all.  It is reasonable to 
expect that your child will be fed at the intervals which you and your 
child's pediatrician decide is right.  

At our daycare center, the teachers ask us for a schedule, and they 
follow it closely.  They also want to know how the baby's night was, so 
they are prepared if the baby is extra fussy or tired.  As the baby grows, the 
schedule changes, and we always discuss those changes with the staff.  They 
keep written notes about each child's schedule for reference.

I would also be concerned about the teachers not paying attention to the 
children when they're feeding them.  Of course, it's not fair to expect 
that the teachers talk and play only with the children.  It's normal for 
the teachers to have conversations among themselves.  But they are being 
paid to take care of your child and that should be their first concern.  
Talking to a baby while you're feeding him is certainly an expectation 
of mine.

You can't, however, expect other people to take care of your baby exactly 
as you do.  After 3 1/2 years, I still can't get my husband to take care of 
our son exactly as I do :-).  You have to decide what things are important, 
like, is the child being fed when hungry, taking naps when sleepy, dressed 
so that s/he's not cold, changed so that s/he's not wet/dirty, etc.  

I think it's unreasonable to expect a daycare center to dress your 
child exactly as you would.  What's important is that your child is 
clothed, dry, and warm.

I often send my daughter to school with a one-piece, footed outfit on, and 
socks over the feet.  She usually comes home with the sock inside the 
outfit.  Probably because it's easier to change her that way.  It bothered 
me at first, but then I realized that it doesn't really matter, as long as 
her feet are warm enough.

Also, it's impossible for a teacher, who is taking care of 3 or 4 infants, 
to keep each child completely clean.  I've learned not to let dried up baby 
food, or a little spitup bother me.  I'd rather that my kids are a little 
dirty, than neglected because teachers are spending all day changing 
clothes that have a little spit up on them.

As long as my kids come home from daycare happy, rested, and well-fed, 
then I can't complain.

If those things are very important to you, perhaps a one-on-one daycare 
situation (nanny) would be better for you.  Though, I personally, think 
good daycare centers are great for children.

If I were you, I'd ask the director and the teachers to sit down for a 
    conference to calmy discuss your concerns.  If you feel comfortable
    that your baby is safe there, then give it some time and try to work it 
    through with staff, before you look for another daycare situation.  

Leaving your child at daycare has to be one of the most difficult things a 
new parent has to deal with.   Lots of luck,

Sheryl

    

    
    	Lynne...
    
    	I don't feel your asking too much, but my one observation is that
    	maybe you'd be happier with an "in-home" center while your child is 
    	still so young.  I know I wanted my son to have the most attention
    	possible in my absence, and felt there would be no way he would get
    	this in a center with many other infants to tend to.  He was with a 
    	friend of mine (with her 2.5 yr old) for 6 mos, then when I had to 
    	find other arrangements, I was particular to find a place where
    	he was the youngest..(ie: maybe a little bit more attention on him
    	while he was still so young.)  Now that he is 14 mos, he doesn't 
    	need as MUCH attention, but when already going thru the emotions of
    	having to leave my baby with someone else(being a first time mom)
    	I couldn't deal with thinking he had 10 other "babies" to compete
     	with for attention in the beginning.(toddlers are more self-sufficient).  
    
    	Think about it, and check out some home-providers and see what you
    	think.   
    
    	Just MHO.....
    
    	Good Luck
    	Chris
    

    
    Hi Lynne,
    
    I have to agree with the "in-home" care situation. 
    
    The situation that we have is a mother who has a 4
    year old and one that will be 2 in March.  She takes
    in a 2 year old and my son who is 16 months.  
    
    Her house has been inspected by the health department
    and the fire department.  She participates in a state
    food program, so all my son's food has been provided
    since he started table food.   She has to make meals
    from scratch.  If they have macaroni and cheese, it is
    not kraft from a box.  She has to submit a menu to
    the state on a monthly basis and is visited by a 
    nutrionist 3 times per year.  
    
    Her parents come and spend one afternoon per week.
    Just to visit not to watch the children.  But since
    my son does not have any grandparents that live near
    by, I think this is a nice experience for him.  He
    really loves my daycare provider's father.  
    
    I feel very fortunate to have found this person.  I
    know my son is getting good food, he is being taught
    good values (such as to be nice to others and learn
    to share toys).   She also really loves him, and he
    loves her too.  He hugs her good-bye each day. 
 
    Good homecare can be found.  I felt it was important
    for my son to be in a home environment.  When he
    gets older I would like to put him in a center.  By
    then I think he will want to be with more kids and
    participate in the different activities that will prepare
    him for school.
    
    Jeanne
    

    My experience - 
    On Jan 6th I will be returning to work. At first I started to get 
    stressed at the prospect of finding care for Charlotte (who will be
    8 months by then) but now, I have found someone.
    I registered at 2 home-care agencies. One, after some confusion about
    which office to register at, they provided 2 interviews for me. The
    second was nice enough, but not on the ball at all, and called me back
    way long after my decision was made. In the meantime, my buddy (who 
    works next to me at work, is a very good friend of ours and also is
    my car-pooling partner) said that her neighbour, who she knows quite
    well, might be willing to take a new baby (she has a 4 year old who's
    been with her for 3.5 years).
    Lo and behold we decided on her. We just had a "test drive" today. I
    went with Charlotte, we talked about arrangements then I left for
    2 hours to do last minute xmas errands. 
    I think I might be able to do this after all. I didn't really feel
    terribly stressed.
    When I returned Charlotte was napping, and the caregiver went on about
    how they had a good time playing. 
    
    I think it'll be okay....sigh.
    
    Monica

This string of responses about in-home care is makeing me a bit uncomfortable.

For the past year or so the majority of notes I have read in this conference
regarding daycare have argued or implied that daycare centers provide better
care than in-home providors.  I took a little bit of offence to those notes 
because I have an in-home providor who is provideing what I believe is the
best available care for my daughter.  So I wouldn't be surprised if there
are a number of parents reading this string with excellent day-care center 
experiences who may be somewhat offended by the claims that in-home care is 
better than day-care centers.

Forgive me if I'm being over-sensitive - I'd just like to remind people that 
day-care decissions are personal and what is best for one parent/child may not 
be for the next.

    
    I don't think anyone meant to step on toes, or is saying that "one" is
    better than the other...  I think the comparison came in because the
    noter said she had had her child in a center, and we just pointed out
    that there is more than one kind of daycare "experience" out there.
    Home care & Center care.  
    
    Another reason "I" personally pointed out homecare setting is because
    her child is still very young, and as I said in my note, "I",
    personally, felt my son would get more attention in this enviroment
    while still so young and demanding. This is not to say that centers are
    "right" or "wrong", just an experience.
    
    Chris
    

    Do most daycare providers take paid holidays? 
    If so, what do you do when they call something a holiday which DEC
    doesn't?  Do you end up paying twice? (Once for the regular daycare,
    once for a backup).
    
    What about when DEC has a holiday but the daycare place doesn't?
    

    
    
    We take our son to a home daycare provider.  We
    signed a contract that stated what holiday's
    and vacation time would be taken up front.
    
    For instance she is paid for New Years Day,
    Memorial Day, July 4th, Labor Day and two 
    days at Thanksgiving and Christmas.  So that
    is 7 holidays.    
    
    We pay her for 50 weeks per year.  She chooses
    one week for her vacation and we choose one
    week for our vacation and those two weeks she
    is not paid for.  If we decided to not send our
    son on any other days or weeks we still have to
    pay her.  If she is sick and cannot take him,
    then we do not have to pay her.
    
    So far it has worked out well.  I also have a 
    backup daycare in case she is not able to take
    him due to sickness, or when she takes her 
    vacation.
    
    Jeanne
    
    
    
    

    I do not know if this is the right place for this, if not, mods please
    feel free to move to a more appropriate note.
    
    A friend of mine is moving to the States shortly.   She would like
    to mind children full time.   She asked me to ask you all the following
    questions:-
    
    		1.  What does she need to do to get a daycare provider
    		    licence.
    
    		2.  If she were to mind children in her own home, would
    		    an apartment do, or would she need her own house.
    
    		3.  If she was to work in a creche, what qualifications
    		    would she need.
    
    
    Thanks in advance for any help with the above.
    
    
    Bernie	
    

    The first thing we would have to know is ... what state is she going to
    live in.  The laws vary by state for being a home-based provider as
    well as working in a center.
    
    Joyce

    She is going to live in or around Boston, Mass.
    
    
    Bernie

    For Mass. I can help ... to become licensed you need to call the local
    Office for Children and they will send out a form (very lengthy).  Fill
    it out and return (with fee ... last I knew it was $100) for a 2 year
    registration.  It took 2 1/2 months for mine to be approved.  You do
    not have to own your own home, but you do have to meet certain space
    requirements (so many square feet of living space/child).  Outdoor play
    space I'm not so sure on ... I know if you are in a busy area, you are
    suppose to be fenced and again there is so many square fee of outdoor
    play space/child.  They are suppose to inspect your home twice/year.  I
    was licensed for 2 years and they never inspected mine.  Oh yeah, you
    must have to exits from all floors accessed by the children.  Might be
    hard in an apartment.
    
    The form:  they will ask all kinds of information about your home, your
    police record (?), all people in your home and if they have a police
    record (?), what a sample day at your daycare would be, sample meal
    plan, how you would handle discipline, activities away from your home,
    how you would handle a medical emergency, what kind of toys you have
    for specific age groups, what age group you are willing to take, what
    hours you will be open, how much you would charge, do you offer a
    discount for multiple children.  And that's just a small sampling ...
    the form was roughly 20 pages long.
    
    By the way ... the form/requirements may have changed since I applied
    in 1989.
    
    Good luck to your friend ... we need all the quality daycare providers
    we can get.
    
    Joyce

    RE: .-1
    
    Well Joyce, the laws have changed a bit sonce 1989.  There are even
    more restrictive laws which become effective in May.  
    
    RE: .-2
    
    Once this person arrives, send me a note and I'll pass on the copy of
    the laws pertaining to daycare.  The requirements are very clear in
    terms of square footage requirements etc.
    
    Dan

    Re: .57
    
    Dan-
    	Could you also post the process, address and $ amount required to 
    obtain the latest set of Massachusetts laws on this subject? Seems to me, 
    2 yrs. ago when I was last investigating home daycare and center-based care,
    I got a copy of the law creating the Office for Children and the
    regulations for Massachusetts daycare from the secretary of state's 
    publications office. The process for obtaining the info. might be of 
    interest to other noters. 
    
    Lisa

    Thanks for the information, I will pass it on to her.
    
    
    
    
    Bernie

    Back a few....
    
    On the whole, I am very pleased with our daycare provider.  She is very
    trustworthy, takes good care of my daughter and my daughter really
    likes her.   The problem is that she isn't very customer conscious.  It
    appears that daycare is the only source of income for them, so it would
    seem that she would be a little more accomodating.   Even though I
    signed a contract that stated the rules:  her vacation, her late fees
    and how she runs things.  At the time, the rules didn't seem to be that
    bad, but as time has gone by, it has caused a problem.  
    
    The rules:
       She takes vacation :  We don't pay for the days she takes vacation.
       We take vacation   :  We pay her for these days.
       Holiday's          :  She takes all government holidays but none of
                              her customers work for the government. When
                              Digital doesn't take that day off, my husband
                              and I usually take turns staying by using a
                              sick day or vacation day.  She takes extra
                              days off as well, that we have to find
                              alternate means for care:  Usually one of us
                              stays home with our daughter.  The problem
                              comes when there is a school day.  We only
                              have one car and the bus picks my daughter 
                              up the providers house, which means we have
                              to keep our child home from school. Luckily
                              she's only in kindergarten this year.
       Late:   If we are 1 minute past 5:30 its an automatic $10 fee. To me
                 this is a little outrageous and since we have 45-50 minute
                 drive to home, if there is bad traffic or an accident it
                 could easily put us over the time limit, since the
                 earliest we can leave work is 4:30.
    
        Pet peeves:
           -  Not allowed to park in her driveway.  During the summer this
               is not a problem.  Its light when we get there and I can see
               to get into her house with no problem.   During the winter,
               its dark and the drive way is icy and they do not provide
               lights to the driveway or garage.
           -  If we go on vacation for a week we are required to pay for
               2 weeks upfront otherwise pay a late fee.  This may be fine
               for someone who doesn't live from week to week on their      
               paycheck and has some backup savings, but for me this is not
               possible. 
    
      Maybe I'm the one being unreasonable here, but I have this idea in my
        mind that when someone is opening themselves up for business in any
        circumstances, that they need to accomodate the customer's needs.  
        Even though I signed a contract for these rules and will abide by
        them, it still seems a little unfair.  And I do not necessarily
        want to find another provider because as I said before, the quality
        of the care is not in question.......   How about some opinions...
    
    

    
    My opinion is that yes, she does seem s bit strict with her rules. 
    Some of the things I picked up as differences between your provider 
    and mine are: 1. You must plan yor vacation around hers if you don't
    want to pay for a week or 2 that your daughter is not even there. My
    daycare provider takes 3 weeks a year (set up in Jan.) that she is not
    paid for. We are also entitled to 2 weeks a year ourselves we are not 
    asked to pay for, but must let her know 2 weeks ahead of time. 
    2. Parking in her driveway. I can understand this especially with what
    has jsut happened at my providers home. Your provider is probably
    worried about damage to her personal vehicles. My providers car was
    damaged this year when someones vehicle slipped out of gear while
    running and rammed into her car. Due to this tho, she has asked us all
    personally to not leave our cars "running" in her driveway, and also 
    added an extra sheet to her contract to be signed stating that anyone 
    no observing this request will be responsible for any damages incurred
    if something to this affect happens again.  I can really see her point.
    I do feel tho, that she should keep her driveway clear and salted when
    necessary for your safety, and hers (you could sue) 3. I personally think 
    that being less than say 5 mins late and having to pay $10 is a steep 
    charge.
    
    You asked for opinions, those are mine. Another good thing I like about 
    my providers rules, are she allows for 4 "sick" days a year per child.
    As you said, if this is her only form of income, you would think she
    would try to be a bit more accomodating, to keep her customers. ???
    
    Chris
    

    I was wondering about infant/toddler rates and what is considered
    standard.
    
    My daycare provider has two rates, infant and toddler.  I had just
    assumed that toddler rate would take affect when the baby has his 
    second birthday.  It hadn't occured to me to ask until the other
    day because his first birthday is coming up, and I was surprised
    when she said that the rate changes when he is potty/toilet trained.
    
    This surprised and dissapointed me, because chances are that's 
    adding at least another year at the higher fee.  I have no idea
    what the standard is for this, could somone fill me in?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Gail             

    Is your provider a day care center?  My understanding is that as long
    as children are in diapers, Office for Children requires the center to
    have more personnel on hand to change them, thus the higher fee.
    
    For what it's worth, my center has THREE rates, infant, toddler, 
    and preschool.
    
    Only preschoolers HAVE to be potty trained.

    Please remember that in the US, each state's licensing requirements are
    different.
    
    Thus, if Massachusetts uses, say, the out-of-diapers rule for dropping
    the staff ratio, another state, like New Hampshire, may drop the staff
    ratio when the child passes a set age.
    
    Probably most states have several ratios depending on the children's
    ages.
    
    One can generally say the the drop in rates for a toddler (at whatever
    age or training level) is tied into reduced staffing requirements.
    
    L
    

    Sorry, I should have been more specific.
    
    This is a in-home daycare in Massachusetts.
    
    Gail

    re. .60
    
    Our first daycare provider charged in 15 minute increments, only for
    the time our daughter was actually there.  No paid
    holidays/vacations/etc.  No overtime.  We weren't thrilled with her style 
    of caring for an infant tho, so we took a neighbor up on an offer to watch 
    her.
    
    Our current provider is paid a flat fee per week.  If Kaitlin isn't
    there for 1/2 day or more, we pay less, but since we're thrilled with
    the way they treat her, we don't pay less if she's there only a bit
    shorter.  Oh, the hours are approximately 7:30 - 5:30.  We're usually
    early, but sometimes late.  
    
    As far as parking in the driveway, I think that sounds ridiculous!
    You should be able to drive up as close as possible to drop off your
    child, and walkways should be shoveled and salted in the winter. 
    Doesn't your provider have a garage to park her own car, or is that
    her reason?  This one makes me laugh!  I can't imagine telling anyone
    not to park in my driveway.  That's what it's for.
    
    Robin

    The reason for not parking in the driveway is because her husband
    doesn't want for any oil drips to get in his driveway and that
    sometimes someone is parked in the driveway when he gets home.  Not us
    mind you, we are the last to pick our daughter up and both cars as well
    as their sons car is in the driveway.  And its not like the car is
    running unattended either, because my husband and I drive to work
    together and he sits in the car while I go in.
    
    Well, we had decided that we would pull up in the drive way, I'd get
    our daughter out and take her in and he would pull into the street.
    Well the straw that broke the camels back happened when we were asked
    not even to pull in long enough to get our daughter out of the car.  My
    husband went in and flatly told them that we would respect there wishes
    not to park in the driveway except for when its snowing, raining or
    things are icy.  He also told them that he didn't see what the big deal
    was about pulling in long enough to get our daughter out.  Well the
    provider's husband did agree that there wasn't a big deal about that,
    but he could make everyone else follow the rules if we didn't.  But
    anyway, at this point in time we are allowed to pull in, get our
    daughter out and he will pull out again, except for when the weathers
    bad in which case we will park in the driveway for our safety's sake.
    
    
    

    .67> The reason for not parking in the driveway is because her husband
       > doesn't want for any oil drips to get in his driveway 
    
    Can you say "anal retentive"??!
    
       > and that sometimes someone is parked in the driveway when he 
       > gets home.
    
    Poor pitiful pearl!  You mean... he might actually have to park *on the
    street* for, say, *five minutes* and walk all the way to the house to
    ask someone to move?
    
    I know, don't sweat the small stuff, and it's all small stuff.  I just
    had to express my indignation, and I feel better now, thank you  :-}
    
    Leslie 

    Stuff like this would really bother me.  How does he feel about kids
    throwing up on the carpet, spilling juice on the kitchen table, or
    creating a wear pattern on the floor from walking throughout the house?
    
    My child's safety would be foremost.  I think it's safer to park in the
    driveway, no matter what the weather.  Kids run away when you are
    getting them out of a car. I'd rather have that happen in the yard than
    in the street.
    
    And I'd be so annoyed by this that my stress level would raise just
    pulling in the driveway.
    
    judy  

    I'm so gladddddd to hear that others would be annoyed by what seems to
    me petty stuff.   Even my husband was ticked off, especially with all
    the other rules and regulations that this women has in her contract.
    Granted, I signed the contract and I have to live with the rules, but
    I still feel that when daycare is pretty much her only source of income
    that she could be a little more accomodating. Not parking in her
    driveway is not mentioned in her contract, but my husband told her that
    if she really wants "no parking in her driveway" then she will need to
    revise her contract with this as well.   But, like I said before, when
    it comes to the care of my daughter and my daughter liking her, I just
    can't complain about that aspect.
    
    We always pay her cash, and she mentioned to me that from now on when
    she signs on someone new, she is going to request cash payments because
    it is so much nicer.....  She'd better put that in the contract too....

    Hey, tell her your advisors (us) tell you that paying cash means you
    can't claim for child care, and ask for her Social Security number
    so you can file.
    
    That'll scare her, as it's quite possible she's not reporting
    her cash income.
    
    I think you should get out of this contract.  There're enough
    other choices that you don't have to go with something that's
    full of irritations.
    
    		-John Bishop

    No,  can't do that, because she keeps track of all she recieves from us
    and gaves us a statement with her license number so that  we can claim 
    it on taxes.  Shes legit as far as thats concerned.
    
    Thanks for the idea though..
    
    
    Sarah

    
    Sarah,
    
    I have been reading all these replies and some have
    been great!  While reading I have been biting my
    lip...
    
    She is providing a service to you.  You are her employer,
    and a customer.  She should be trying to please you and
    make the situation easy for you.  
    
    With my provider we agreed on hours, pay and days off.
    But there are no rules.  She asks me what I would like for
    her to do for my son and to make things easier for me.  
    
    On snow days unless it's really bad out the walk and 
    driveway are cleared and salted before anyone arrives.
    She prefers people pull into her driveway for safety
    reasons.
    
    Charging a $10.00 fee is unreasonable.  It sounds like
    this woman wants everything her own way and is only in
    it for the money.
    
    I would have my child out of that situation so fast.  Because
    it sounds like there is always going to be something that they
    are going to make a new rule about.  
    
    I am so thankful to have the situation that we have now.
    
    Jeanne
    
          

    Sarah,
    
    I think the $10 fee is unreasonable, too.  When we were interviewing
    daycare providers one of them had a $10 fee for every 10 minutes that
    you were late OR early!  Didn't even give this woman second
    consideration (although that was just one of the things I really
    disliked).
    
    Currently my provider is 2 miles from my home and 5 miles from my
    office. While this is GREAT now, my office is moving to MRO in 3 weeks,
    heavy sigh, and I'll be 30 miles away then.  I'm supposed to pick up
    my daughter by 5:30 (my husband has to be in school in Boston by 6 3
    nights a week, so I handle most of the pick up), but once we move it's
    going to be harder getting there on time.
    
    What I plan on doing, which may be something you should do, is sitting
    down with my provider and telling her that I plan on leaving my office
    by x in order to be there at 5:30, however, I can't plan for traffic
    jams, etc.  At least that way she knows that I'm not stopping off and
    shopping or taking advantage of my daughter being with her when I
    should be picking her up.  I also plan on calling her before I leave
    work on the days that the weather looks bad.
    
    Sounds like you need to sit down and tell her how much you like her
    care but there are some things that need to get discussed.
    
    Susan

    
    I think that you'll find that there often valid reasons why 
    daycare providers have rules that may at times seem unreasonable.
    My daycare provider has had customers who came early and/or picked
    up late, who didn't pay her in a timely fashion, or who gave her
    rubber checks (notice this is all past tense 8-).   Daycare providers 
    have lives/families of their own and also have bills to pay.  It's
    unfortunate, but I think the bad habits of a few tend to spoil it
    for the masses.   
    
    I do agree, however, that the daycare provider should keep his/her 
    driveway free and clear of snow and ice whether you can park there
    or not.!   As far as paying up front for vacation weeks, why not
    just pre-date the checks so that she can cash them at her regular
    pay day?
    
    Carol
    
    

    RE: $10 charge.
    
    I also agree that the $10 is a bit steep.  But...  You must also
    understand where that might have come from.  In our situation (my wife
    is a provider) we have a similar charge ($10/ quarter hour).  In three
    years of providing care, we have yet to charge it.  There have been a
    number of times when the parents were late.  We view the charge as
    necessary to prevent REPEATED occurances of tardiness or early arrival. 
    Since we generally open up at 7:00 AM, any early arrival is a problem. 
    If the mentioned provider charges the $10 for ALL tardiness, I view
    this as a problem.  Charging for repeated tardiness is appropriate.
    
    Also, constant contact by phone is also helpful.  I would be less
    likely to charge a late fee, if I was aware beforehand that the pickup
    would be late for a legitimate reason.  Providers should be reasonable
    and somewhat flexible.  On the other hand, the provider must have a
    life too.  We are generally open from 7am to 5:30PM.  As it is, we have
    little free time with our own kids before bedtime.  If the pickup time
    were to stretch to 6:00 or 6:30, there would be little time for play
    assuming we also have to feed and bath the kids.
    
    Remember too that at daycare centers, the rules are even more
    restrictive since they must pay someone to stay late.  The per hour pay
    cost can be around $10+ per hour.
    
    Dan

    
    
    Yes the late fees are to prevent abuse.  When my wife was doing
    daycare, we had folks habitually show up late.  We instituted a late
    fee and voila, no more tardiness.  It's amazing how people will make
    the extra effort if they are going to be hit in the wallet/pocketbook.
    
    Also, you are not the employer of the daycare provider as has been
    previously stated.  You are indeed a customer, but not an employer.
    In my opinion, if you are happy with the care, you should be able to
    overlook the little quirks that may come along.  It's funny how, in
    this file there is intolerance for the provider (my way or the
    highway), a noticable lack of tolerance that the provider is being 
    accused of.  Talk to them, work it out.  IMHO-The best solution for all
    involved.
    
    Mike 

    I need to add my 2-cents worth to this.
    
    The last few years AJ has been in a couple day care centers.  One of
    them was close to our work site, but closed at 5:30.  However what they
    frequently did was to bundle the kids up before 5:30, before the parent
    arrived, shut off the lights and either wait at the upstairs landing,
    or in a few annoying cases he and the teacher were waiting outside on
    the steps. (it was in a church).  I really was annoyed by this
    practice, after all just because he was the last to leave doesn't give
    them the right to give me the bums rush.
    
    I put him in a better run daycare center after that.  Their policies
    were clearly set.  There were just two cases where we ran past their
    6p.m. closing time.  I did call both times, to let them know that due
    to uncontrollable circumstances I may be a "couple" minutes late.  The
    first time I was reminded that ordinarily there would be a late fee,
    but because it was my first time, and I had called it would be waived.
    The second time, it was a miserable night weatherwise, I again called
    and it was never mentioned.  I think several other parents' ran into
    the same problem.  I do understand that in a center people will have to
    be paid overtime for staying late, keeping cleaning people waiting etc.
    
    Since AJ is now in kindegarten our needs are somewhat different, but
    still very much the same.  Our provider lives on the next street to us,
    and is available from 7:30 to 6:00.  Unfortunately I need to allow a
    minimum of 35 minutes time for commuting.  I was late a couple weeks
    ago, because of an accident and slow traffic on I-290 in Worcester. 
    She never criticized me, but rather was concerned that it had been me
    in the accident.  She mentioned a couple other parents were a little
    later than usual as well.  Usually my husband picks him up, since he
    leaves work at 3:30, I work until at least 5 most nights.  So usually
    making it there in time is no problem.
    
    Comments on the contract:
    I have never been asked to sign any contract, until I got to our
    current provider.  I was initially disturbed by some of the
    requirements, and mentioned this to my husband.  His opinion is that a
    contract is written for the benefit of both parties, and if I had any
    concerns that I should speak to her (negotiate if you will) BEFORE
    signing the contract.  I did this, and have negotiated her 2 week
    termination notice down to one week, and have negotiated the fee I have
    to pay to "hold" his spot should I take vacation or not need for for a
    few weeks, down a bit.  I was also concerned that she needed her fee
    one week in advance, but since he is only there most weeks for a few
    minutes before the school bus in the a.m. and it varies how long at the
    end of the day from 1 to 1.5 to 2 hours I have trouble "guestimating"
    how much I will end up owing her.  We have basically agreed that we
    will use about a set amount, and pay her that amount.  But she isn't
    really strict about whether it gets to her Friday (am or pm) Monday or
    even later in the week.  The last two weeks I had been unemployed, (oh
    the unpredictable life of DECtags!) I paid her the fee to hold his
    spot, and just let him go to her home until I had used up the fee
    amount.  The other reasoning on that is to not interupt AJ's schedule
    too much.  
    
    Lyn
    

    Well,
    
    This came to mind the other day when a co-worker was discussing what 
    she was going to do during her lunch hour (stop by the mall, go out to
    lunch etc) she has 2 kids in daycare.
    
    When I was a family daycare provider, I never got a lunch break.  Even
    if you plan on getting all 6 kids to take a nap, without fail one always
    can't sleep or needs to go to the bathroom etc.  I was a daycare
    provider for about 6 years and don't ever remember having a full 45
    minutes to sit back and relax.  
    
    The hours were 7AM to 5:30 PM, without fail several times a week
    someone would arrive at 6:30AM and say "Oh he will sit in the corner
    and color"  yah right!  Also without fail several evenings a week
    someone would be caught in traffic or get stuck late at work.  This
    increases an already LONG workday (10 1/2 hours) by at least an hour.
    
    Also keep in mind that your daycare provider has to plan her/his
    time accordingly in order to get to the bank to cash your check. 
    Forgetting your checkbook on Friday and not paying until Monday
    morning could quite possibly cause your daycare provider not to be
    able to cash it until Thursday or so when the bank is open in the
    evening.  You would not like it very much if DEC decided to wait until
    Monday to deposit your hard earned $$.
    
    Just some food for thought when you think your daycare provider is
    being unreasonable.
    
     
    Judie_who_loved_working_with_the_children_but_parents_were_another_story
    
    

Hi,
   I'm presently experiencing some problems with a daycare center. Last week
when I went to pick up my child I was told that the daycare center would be
closed the next day because they were experiencing some problems with the heat.
Well, I can understand that but they were also very prompt to add that I would
have to pay for the day they were closed.

This is, by the way, the second time they close for the same reason. Do I 
have any rights as a parent to say no? Why should I have to pay if I have
to either miss work or pay someone else to care for may child?
I talked to the director and she said that they were legally entitled to
charge for that day.  I also called the Office for children and they said
that I should talk to a lawyer, that there was nothing they could do about it.


How do you deal with a problem like this?  Please advice,

Angela

    Angela,
    
    Does your center have a handbook, or a policies and procedures
    document that they give you when you first register? I would
    expect every center to have an explicit, written statement that 
    covers situations like this.
    
    I went through the same feelings you have around snow days. I 
    hated to pay for something I wasn't getting, especially when my
    *job* didn't close for snow, but the policy handbook was clear
    that they could charge for it. My loss...
    
    If there is no such written statement, I would press for one;
    it's only fair to parents. To be fair to them, remember that they
    still have to pay staff salaries and some other overhead for days 
    when no kids come.  
    
    Lucy

    Angela,
    
    I meant to also offer a little more support -- if you feel they
    are taking advantage of the parents, perhaps it would be worth
    asking other parents if they share your feelings. Then make an
    appointment with the director and let him/her know in a calm way
    that you are unhappy and what you would like done differently. 
    
    The two centers I've used have been very aware that they are 
    competing in the open market and need to keep the customer
    satisfied.
    
    Lucy

Lucy,

   I did talk to the director and she doesn't seem to be very willing to change
or negotiate anything. When I first talked to her about it, she simply said
that if I don't like the daycare center policies that I should look for another
daycare center. I was very surprised to hear something like this from a director.

She  could care less if I take my child to another daycare center. The reason,
as I said before I haven't done it is because my child is very happy there 
and I'm afraid to try a new one. I am not complaining about the staff and
the facility itself but their policies. I do have a copy of the daycare center
policies and I don't see anything in writing  that would cover the 2 days they
closed because of heating problems.

I have talked to other parents and I know they feel the same way. They are
pleased with the daycare except for its policies and we wish we could change
some of them at least.

I know a mother of two, who takes her two kids to the same daycare center.
She had to take one of the kids to the doctor. When she came back to the center
it was a little after 10:00am and they refuse to take her child because their
policy says the if you take your child to a doctor's appointment, the child
needs to be back to the center before 10:00am. This woman ended up losing a
day of work because of this policy.

I strongly feel that, as mad as I am right now, I don't have to run away if
I know there are other parents that feel the same way. I can't believe that
they can get away with all these policies and there is nothing we(parents)
can do about it.

Angela.

I certainly don't understand the policy about taking a child to the doctor
and returning by a certain time.  I mean, it's *my* kid, and I will take my
kids out and return them anytime I choose.  (But, let me be clear that I
talk to the provider's at the daycare center to make sure they know what's
going on and that I'm not screwing up their staffing.)

You can always do something about policies you don't like - you can
vote with your feet.  Not easy to do when your kid is happy there, but as
it's been pointed out in this conference before, you have to trust and be
able to work with the people providing daycare to your children.  If you
are having difficulties, you should consider looking for other daycare...


Pat

Angela,

While I recognize the difficulty of looking for daycare, it seems to me that 
the fact you are reasonably happy with the care your child is getting, could 
make the process easier.  The worst time to go hunting for daycare is when you 
are under the gun.  Right now you have the luxury of time.

What I'd suggest is exploring other daycare situations.  Take the time to 
explore thoroughly, and pay particular attention to the things that bother you 
about the situation you are in now, such as the policies that you've 
mentioned.  Of course don't forget to make as sure as you can that the 
prospective daycare also has the things that you LIKE about your current 
situation.  A lot of the early looking you do may be over the phone.

If there some others who feel as you do, perhaps you could work together in 
your search, so that the hassle would be split up (which would be especially 
helpful if you had to take time off from work to visit.

You may find a number of things.  You may find a daycare situation that has 
everything you have AND more flexible policies.  You may find a daycare 
situation with more flexible policies, but who charges more, so that you 
end up paying more even if they don't charge for days they are closed.  You 
may find that you're getting a reasonable deal now.

Clay

    Angela,
    
    I understand your feelings.  Just remember there are many good
    daycare centers.  You really need to feel comfortable with the
    center staff (including the director).  If these policies really
    bother you, you should consider looking for another center.
    
    Wendy  

    Angela,
    
    It seems like your daycare's director needs to wake up!  If you do end
    up leaving, you might let her know that her uncompromising attitude
    was what led you to leave. You might also mention that you know a *lot*
    of people who use daycare and you do not intend to recommend her center...
    
    I have faith in the marketplace on some level, for stuff like this.
    It may not help your immediate situation but eventually she should
    get the message (I hope). 
    
    Good luck,
    
    Lucy

    
    To put things in perspective.  If Digital has a snow day, they
    shouldn't have to pay you, right?  And if there is a mechanical
    malfunction at a DEC facility and they need to close it dow, again 
    you expect not to be paid, correct?  I suspect that the daycare
    facility still has anopbligation to pay its employees, etc.  
    
    Also, if I'm happy with the dayvare, I would not mind paying the money,
    especially if it is written in the policies and procedures.
    
    
    Mike 

Re .-1

I almost agree except for the fact that this seems to be a recurring problem
at the day care.  They also have an obligation to their customers to have the
place in working condition and to see that things like furnaces get serviced
so they don't have interruptions in the service.  If it happens once, you can
say ok that's life.  Twice I'd start asking why they didn't get it fixed the
last time around.

The rest of their rules sound rather arbitrary.  I'd be voting with my feet
but that is JMHO :-)

ccb

    Just FYI, if Digital closes a facility you ARE paid. (according to the
    Orange P&P Book)  If YOU choose to take the day off because of snow
    then you ought to find a way to get paid, i.e. vacation day.  (we
    DECtags just loose a day's pay, so I personally make every human effort
    to get here somehow)  But yes, I suspect the staff are still paid even
    if they close for whatever reason, holiday, weather or heat, but my
    feeling is that ought to be budgeted for when they figure out salaries
    and benefits.  Just curious is this a regular daycare center (for
    profit) or a non profit sponsored by some church or civic agency,
    please clarify?
    
    I also have a problem with the thing about no one being allowed to drop
    off after 10:00 a.m.  That would make me suspicious about WHY they
    don't seem to welcome parents after a certain time.  What happens in
    the afternoon, is it that you can NOT pick up your child until a
    certain time?  Or perhaps you should make your doctors appointments for
    late afternoon.  
    
    As a parent you have a right by law to drop into any daycare center at
    ANY time of day.  Perhaps you might want to drop in UNANNOUNCED at some
    point the next few days.  Just be sure everything they are doing is on
    the level.  Wouldn't hurt as well to call the Office for children and
    let them know of their policy, both the time limitations as well as the
    lack of heat in the building, and ask if they might be interested in
    making a visit in the near future.  The way I see it they are obligated
    by the OFC to give your child a safe, comfortable place to stay. 
    Without heat in the building they are not providing either of these.
    
    My sixth sense as a mother says you ought to get your children out of
    the center ASAP, something just doesn't seem right.  (OK it's just my
    opinion).
    
    Lyn
    (who didn't plan on coming on so strong)
    

    
    I agree about dropping by, Lyn and about limited access to the
    facility.  If the parent can drop by any time, then that would 
    eliminate any suspicions and I would take advantage of the policy.
    
    I play the devils advocate with regards to daycare many a time, I guess
    I view it as if you are happy with the care your child is getting then a 
    few seemingly dumb policies could be overlooked.  Just my $0.02.
    
    
    Mike 

    RE: .90, .91
    
    Are you sure that the words were "don't drop by at all" or was it more
    like: We'd rather you not show up at this time due to naps/meals etc.
    My wife is a provider and I know that there are times during the day
    where parents showing up would be a major disruption to the kids'
    schedules.  This does not mean that you can never show up during these
    times, its just that it is not the best time.
    
    I find it interesting to view the opinions in this file about daycare
    centers and family daycare.  While I can understand concerns from
    parents, I can also understand the feelings from the providers
    perspective too.  I read many comments that the providers are being
    unreasonable in their demands.  If you take a step back for a moment,
    you may realize that some of the rules and requests are ones you
    yourself would probably make to your employer as well.
    
    For example, paid vacations!  I have read a number of notes in this
    file where parents complain that they must pay for the providers
    vacation while still finding a way to get care for their kids.  Do you
    get paid vacation?  
    
    Another example is the hourly rate.  I have heard people complaining
    about the pay rate.  This is your child here!!  You probably pay a
    sitter $3.00 per hour to stay with your kids when you go out.  Yet, I
    hear grumbling about paying $2.50 per hour for daycare.
    
    Yes, I agree that there are a number of providers who shouldn't be in
    the business.  Jumping to the OFC is not the best solution necessarily. 
    I have seen a number of occassions where this has resulted only in the
    daycare going "underground".  When there are propblems, they need to be
    fixed, but a defensive approach (in my opinion) is not the way to go. 
    As mentioned earlier in this stream, a request/demand was made for
    parents not to show up at a specific time.  Immediately, it ia assumed
    that the center is trying to hide something.  WHY???  Perhaps they have
    only the interest of the kids in mind.  Ask first for an explanation
    rather than jumping to conclusions.
    
    Sputtering flame off...
    
    Dan

 Thank you all for your input.  Thank you Lyn for your concern about my child's
wellbeing. I never said that the daycare does not allow parents to drop in any
time. Believe me, I have done that several times. The policy is towards doctor's
appointments only!. Normally the child needs to be in by 9:00am but if you
need to take your child to the doctor, you have to make it back before 10:00am.

How do I work around this policy? I try to make the doctor's appointments for
late afternoons. 

Mike, I don't think that these are silly policies. These silly policies as you
call them can become a real problem for people that can't work around them
like I am trying to. No all working parents have a flexible job and flexible
hours. No all parents have a backup place or person whenever the daycare 
closes. I strongly believe that a daycare should be more aware of the
incoveniences and the problems that they create to the parents before they
make up these "silly policies". 

I know that a lot of you are thinking that if I don't agree with them then
I should just leave. But having talked to other parents I know that I am not
alone and maybe if we can get together and talk to the director's supervisor
or put something in writing they may consider changing these "silly policies".

Another question you may ask is: You knew about these policies when you  first
put your child in this particular daycare, so why conplaining now?  Yes, I was
aware of the snow policy : When public schools close, the daycare center closes.
Yes, I was aware of the 12 holidays they take. Yes, I was aware of the doctor's
appointment policy. No, I wasn't aware they would close for heating problems.
No, I wasn't aware they would call me at work whenever it snows and they decide
to close early. No, I wasn't aware that if you're ONE MINUTE late to pick up
you child they would start calling all the emergency phones numbers that I
gave them.
I may agree with some of you who may be experiencing other types of problems
that these silly policies can be overcome by the quality of care I am getting.
The problem is that I am afraid that if we let these unrealistic policies go,
we don't really know how many more they'll come up with and we will always be
at their mercy. IT'S NOT RIGHT AND IT'S NOT FAIR.


Angela.

I guess I'm feeling kinda curmudgeonly overly sensitive this morning, but a 
couple of analogies kind of set me the wrong way.

Mike, suppose you're generally satisfied with your job, but your company has 
some policy that really bothers you.  When  you went in and complained, 
respectfully and politely, to your boss, and he responded, "Well, if you don't 
like it go find a job somewhere else."  What would you do? If it bothers you 
enough, isn't one rational approach to look for other another employer who has 
different policies?  Of course that other employer will probably have some 
policies that you don't like, and changing jobs has disadvantages, but you'd 
have to weigh that.  And, of course, you may find out that it's best to stay 
where you are.

As for the vacation issue, the business model of an independent daycare 
provider is much closer to an independent contractor than it is to an 
employee of a corporation.  If you've hired an electrician to do some work in 
your house, and s/he decides to take a day off, or can't get to your house, do 
you expect to pay them for that day?  Do you expect to pay for a doctor's 
appointment that the doctor doesn't keep?

You might say, but the electrician charges $60 an hour.  True enough.  The 
electrician has set his fees high enough so that he can occasionally take a 
day off and still have enough to pay his bills.  The daycare provider could do 
that, too.  That's precisely why, when looking for daycare, it's important to 
find out policies around sick days, vacation days, holidays, and such, to find 
out the cost per year (not just per hour) for daycare.

I think the benefit of a daycare provider charging for some amount of vacation 
and holiday time, and possibly even for some "down time" like snow days is 
that it evens out the cash flow for the daycare provider and the client.  If I 
were a daycare provider, and I set my policy that way, I would explain it by 
saying "I *could* set up my business so that you did not have to pay for days 
that we are closed.  But I would have to charge a higher hourly rate to do 
that.  I prefer to have a more consistent cash flow, and I think most of my 
clients do also"  I wouldn't try to analogize my small daycare operation to a 
multibillion dollar corporation, or say "If you don't like it go somewhere 
else."

Clay

    Clay the curmudgeon ;').  The policies are set by the daycare center,
    they are applied to all of the parents.  If you don't like it, the
    alternatives are to bring it up, say nothing, leave.  If you bring it
    up and the provider does not agree to change, then you either leave or
    stay.  Someones business is not a majority rules (of the parents).  You
    assess the situation and decide whether the quality of care is worth or
    not worth the policies you don't like.  To me (as I believe I said
    before), the quality of care outweighs policy disagreements.
    
    Mike 

>    If you bring it up and the provider does not agree to change, then you 
>    either leave or stay.  

Mike, while making the leave or stay decision, I'm merely suggesting finding 
out what other daycares do.  As I said before that search process may result 
in a finding that the policies (whether or not "unreasonable" or "unfair", 
which are matters of opinion) are very commonplace.  Or as I mentioned, she 
may find more lenient rules, but higher rates.

The daycare business (and I don't mean business as a pejorative term) has 
changed a lot.  When we were using it several years ago, we paid for full 
weeks at a daycare center (even if they were closed for one or more days 
during that week); we didn't pay if they were closed for a full week (such as 
between Christmas and New Year's Day), but for home daycare, we only paid for 
days that our kids were there (not even for days that our kids were home 
because they were sick).  In recent years, I've heard more and more of home 
based daycare providers requesting payment for holidays, vacations, etc., and 
paying for sick days (of the child) seem almost universal.  I think it's a 
good idea for daycare consumers to stay aware of the trends.

>    Someones business is not a majority rules (of the parents).  

Not directly.  ANY business -- billion dollar computer company, auto repair 
shop, or daycare provider -- will eventually fail if is fails to listen to 
its customers and give them what they want. 

>    To me (as I believe I said
>    before), the quality of care outweighs policy disagreements.

Quality of care and flexible policies are not mutually exclusive.

Clay

When I had au paires, I paid them monthly (as we are all paid here)  They got
the same amount of vacation as I did and at the same time.  I had to make 
alternative arrangements if one got really sick or had to go for a funeral or
something but we worked around it.  Effectively, they got all the benefits
that I did.  They got around $600 a month plus room, board, insurance, etc.
paid.

Now, if I were taking my children to a large daycare, I think I would look upon
it this way.  If you pay for a service and they can't provide it (one of their
employees is ill and they have no replacement, heating goes, etc.) then they
should be prepared to take the hit.  If you don't take your child in for the 
same reason or by choice or whatever, then you take the hit.  It seems a 
large establishment should have insurance/alternatives/backups/etc. to be open
without fail for the time that they say they will.  The one large creche that I
know here does this and takes off the month of August.  The parents do not
pay for August.  This corresponds the most to a "business" type of arrangement.

For a small center which doesn't have these backup possibilities I think it
goes back to one of the earlier replies here.  Either you pay a higher rate
per hour and don't pay for days when they can't provide or you don't take your
child or you pay a lower rate and cover the times when your child isn't being
looked after.  It comes down to whether the provider wants a lower steady
income or a higher irregular income.  I suppose it all averages out in the end.

Cheryl

    
    Saw over the weekend, a center that has a timeclock type operation. 
    You pay by the hour.  
    
    
    Mike

    One is opening here in Co Springs, where you pay by the hour.
    ($3) and they buy formula, food and diapers.  I think they have a 
    time clock type of operation too.
    
    

    Mike, interesting thought with the timeclock.  Might make keeping track
    of time a little easier with all those little people making things so
    chaotic...
    
    Now for a new topic....mods might want to make this one separate, or
    attach to something already in existance...
    
    I wondered about moving AJ back to the preschool he was in until he
    started kindegarten just for the school vacation months?  Any comments?
    They are willing to accomodate children through the first grade. 
    My reasoning was that it's a little more structured, they do seem to
    learn something everyday, they offer swimming lessons and field trips
    during the summer, and I've noticed that AJ and the current caregiver's
    son seem to be not getting along quite as well as I'd like to see.
    February vacation was a constant reptoir or her 4 year old son biting,
    kicking, hitting AJ with Sticks etc, having temper tantrums etc, and AJ 
    not being sure how to react to this sort of thing (his father's suggestion
    to AJ was to "belt the kid with a fist", which I squelched real quickly so 
    it never happened).  I'm not looking forward to April vacation...
    Don't get me wrong, she's a great caregiver in small doses, but her son
    who just turned 4 is really out of control and has constant temper
    tantrums and fits of frustration.  
    
    Of course this leaves me with the indecision of will she still have
    room for him come next September when he goes back to school (it will
    be first grade)?  I don't plan on paying her weekly fee to "hold" his
    spot from June to September.  She had two openings when I placed him
    the first of this year, and still has an opening which I seem to think
    may remain open by her choice.
    
    Comments, suggestions, has anyone tried anything like this?
    
    Lyn

    Well, Lyn, my kids will probably be there for the summer if that helps. 
    (If I still have a job then!) 
    
    -T.
    

    
    He will probably be one of the oldest and that might be good as he may
    shoulder some of the responsibilities for the younger kids.  Genna
    (about to tur n 6) has become a great help in taking care of her
    younger sister (Lauren 4) and brother (Randy 2).  She takes it upon
    herself to do so, not that she doesn't still have her mamoents. :')
    
    
    Mike

    OK,  I believe I put something in here about this before.   The problem
    is that our daycare provider has just given us a new contract to sign.
    In this contract, she raises her prices (which is not the issue, I
    understand the need for a raise), requests that all payments in cash
    (which we do anyway), requests that she be paid in advance when we go
    on vacation (which also isn't a problem).  The problem is (and maybe
    I'm the one whose being petty here) that she has put it into her
    contract that we cannot under any circumstances pull into her driveway
    to pick up and drop our child off at daycare.   Now, I understand that
    the OFC doesn't have any rules about family daycares providing
    adequate/safe drop off and pick up.  But, I really think that this is
    a totally unfair to expect to run a business, but not have an adequate
    /safe place for me to drop off my child.   Its not so much an issue
    during the summer as it is during the winter.  There is nothing in the
    contract that will commit on her part that the driveway will be plowed
    and sanded to provide us safe passage into her house and that adequate
    lighting will be available also.   
    
    The real problem comes with the fact that I do not want to have to
    change daycare providers.   My daughter loves her and she takes very
    good care of my daughter and loves her also.  But I can't shake the
    feeling that what she is requiring of us is very unsafe.  There are no
    guarantees in life that some car couldn't come around the corner and
    hit us when we are parked on the street.  I just want to ensure the
    safety of my child and myself when I am dropping my child off at
    daycare.    Am I being unreasonable?   So,  I need to have some
    opinions here.  What do I do?   If the provider values us as a customer
    then shouldn't I be able to negotiate this without causing irreparable
    damage?  And what would be the best way for me to approach this matter
    with her on a congenial basis.   
    
    

    RE: .-1
    
    It seems to me that she is being somewhat unreasonable.  I would ask
    her to sign some form of contract stating that she is responsible for
    any and all injuries etc that may occur due to the lack of a "safe"
    dropoff point.  Call the OFC and ask their opinion.  There are no
    specific regulations about the exterior facilities other than the
    requirement that the house be free of pealing paint and perhaps a fence
    requirement for the play area.  The OFC typically is good about
    explaning what is required and what is not.
    
    Dan_whose_wife_is_a_provider
    

    The provider has to keep her driveway and any walkway free
    of snow and ice, like any other homeowner.  If any injuries
    resulted from that, her homeowners insurance would pick it
    up.
    
    I think she is being unreasonable.  Call the OFC.

    I did contact the OFC and they told me that there were no rules
    requiring a safe drop off/pick up place.  The only requirements that
    they have around safety is for play area and indoor safety.   This is
    really funny, since I know a woman who is a family daycare provider in
    New Hampshire and for her to get a liscense there, they had to build a 
    turn around in their driveway for safe pickup/dropoff.   I know that
    each state has its own rules, but I thought it was real strange that
    Mass didn't have any rules governing this.  
    
    Then when I re-looked at the contract, she changed the pick-up time.
    She wrote that anything after 5:10 is late and there is a $10 charge
    for being late.  Now we live in Westminster and work in Hudson and
    there has been very few times when we actually got there to pickup
    befo and if we met with one traffic jam we would be late.  
    
    I'm really frustrated now, it seems like she almost wants us to pull
    our child out of her daycare........    
    
    Thanks for any opinions.
    Sarah
    

    If you *really* like the care your child is getting, then I'd talk to
    the provider about these rules that you don't like.  Perhaps there is
    one parent who is consistently picking the children up late, and she is
    protecting herself from them.  Ask her what her policy would be if you
    get stuck in traffic, since it sounds like you are not generally late.
    
    As for the driveway, my guess is that her family members with cars
    can't get into the garage or driveway if someone else's car is there. 
    To that I say tough.  I would want a safe way to pick up my child.  The
    street is not it, when there is another option.  Maybe the parents can
    agree to park on one side of the driveway to leave an opening for the
    other family members.
    
    I too think she is being unreasonable.  When you are trying to carry a
    child, the bag of stuff, extra diapers, lunch, etc., you don't need to
    also worry about the safety of the street.
    
    judy

    Well,  I've decided that its time to find a new provider for sure.  Its
    more than just the driveway, but that is still a hot-button with me.
    
    When my daughter first started with this provider, the provider had an
    early doctors appointment, that was just about impossible for me to get
    there in time to pick her up.  So the provider said that she could take
    Jessica with her and that her older daughter (14) would be there and
    can keep an eye on Jessica. Well, I thought that sounded OK, that
    Jessica wouldn't be un-supervised.   Well, she's had several
    appointments like this and I assumed (such a fool I was) since she
    didn't say anything otherwise that her older daughter was still there
    to watch Jessica.  Well, the last time, the provider had an
    appointment, I asked Jessica if Katie kept her company while Vicky was
    seeing the doctor.  She told me No that she was alone out in the
    waiting room.  Well, I thought that was really strange.  When I dropped
    off Jessica at daycare this past Monday, there was a note on the door,
    saying that all children needed to be picked up by 5 on Monday and by 4
    on Tuesday.  (Some notice, Huh).  Well, I was there in time to pick up
    Jessica on Monday and I asked Vicky if Katie was going to be at the
    doctors' office to keep an eye out on Jessica.  Vicky tells me OH NO,
    Jessica sits out in the waiting room and I tell the nurses that she
    isn't supposed to go with anyone else.   I about had a s**t fit, when I
    realized that Vicky was leaving my daughter unattended in a doctors
    office and asking nurses to keep an eye on her.    Now I've watched the
    nurses desk when I've gone to the doctor, and there is never someone
    there 100% of the time.  All it would take is for someone to hear Vicky
    say that to a nurse and then wait for that nurse to leave, and my
    daughter could be gone.....    I'm furious...   I even hate leaving
    Jessica with her now, but I'm sort of between a rock and a hard place.
    My husband is out of town until next week, and I do not have the
    vacation time to take off.  I sure can't take the time off without pay.
    So, I'm having to bide my time for right now.   I'm watching Vicky like
    a hawk.    I will not allow her to take my daughter to any more of her
    appointments, even if it does mean I have to leave early from work.
    I've contacted Digitals Childcare referral service and they are sending
    me a list of names for daycare providers in Westminster.   If anyone
    has any names or referrals for that area, please let me know.....
    
    I'm so disgusted about this whole matter, I am sick to my stomach.    I
    feel like that this woman only cares about herself and her wants and
    needs and doesn't give two cents for the safety of my child.   

    RE: .108
    
    I'm sorry to repeat myself but, please report this ti the OFC.  The
    incidents you have related here are in direct violation of OFC rules. 
    Did you sign a form giving permission for the travel off the daycare
    premises?  If not, then the child should never have been taken
    anywhere.  There are very strict rules about supervision which were
    violated if the provider left the child in the "care" of another.  This
    type of behavior sets a bad precident for other providers. Please
    report it so that the problem can be corrected.
    
    Dan

    Ditto the last reply.  It sounds like if she's taking the children
    without your written permission she's in direct violation of OFC rules!
    
    Think about what would happen if she were in an auto accident? or if
    your child wandered out into a busy street, or were kidnapped there are
    endless horrible scenarios.  I don't do it with my  son, I certainly
    wouldn't allow a caregiver to do it either.
    
    Further, if she's got a medical problem that requires that many
    doctor's appointments, then maybe she shouldn't shouldn't be doing
    daycare at all!
    
    FWIW, I had a problem with a caregiver who called on a Sunday night
    telling me she had such and such of a medical problem and wouldn't be
    available to me.  I called the OFC in Worcester, who did an
    investigation and eventually pulled her license until her medical
    condition cleared up.  The caregiver would call and leave degrading and
    threatening messages on my answering machine for doing this, but that's
    another story.....
    
    Lyn

    I am in the process of trying to find daycare for my two daughters, 3
    1/2 and 8 1/2 months.  I am looking at every possiblity, live-out
    nannies combined with nursery school, home daycare, etc.  I am running
    into a lot of home daycares that are using the "Food Program" as a
    selling point.  
    
    I am confused.  
    
    What exactly does the food program provide?  One provider told me that 
    it incudes formula...another said it didn't.  Is there more than one?  
    Is it just a subsidy, or bulk buying type of thing, if so how much?  
    Do you feel a daycare provider should charge extra for meals if she is
    on the food program?
    
    
    
    Thanks,

    Jane Marie
                                                     

    Here's my experience with the "food program".  Most of my present and
    former providers subscribe to the program, which I am pretty sure is a
    Federal government thing. 
    
    One provider I would send formula, so I'm not sure it provides for
    formula.  I would send jars of food, and she would use whatever she had
    in the house, which I told her specifically not to do.
    
    They *used to* have the food delivered to the provider's home, in bulk. 
    My present provider says she uses a voucher, and shops with her regular
    shopping, but must adhere to a certain list of what to buy and what NOT
    to buy.  (popcorn is a NO NO, and neither of us can figure out why) The
    current provider will buy name brand crackers like "snorkels" or
    Vegtable thins, but no chocochip cookies allowed.  Also they must
    provide juice, NOT junk like koolaid, she also provides milk as needed. 
    The Mac'n cheese must be homemade, not the Kraft from the box type.
    
    I believe this is for home based providers only, the preschool where he
    spends the summer just buys the crackers and juice from the profits, at
    least I think this is the way its done.
    
    Lyn

    Just as an afterthought, You need to sign a paper for your provider to
    send in so she can be given the right amount of food for a child of
    his/her particular age and special dietary needs.
    
    There are also breakfast foods available, and some will provide
    breakfast.  
    
    NO provider has yet to charge me extra for meals, while subscribing to
    the program.  I think it may be against the rules to charge for this.
    
    Lyn

    RE: last few
    
    The "food program" mentioned in previous notes is a federal program
    which re-imburses home daycare providers for meals given to children. 
    There are strict rules about what can and can not be served.  The
    amount reimbursed varies based upon the type of meal (lunch, snack, 
    breakfast).  In order to qualify for this program the provider MUST
    supply all food for the children claimed to be a part of the program. 
    In other words, the provider can not accept parent supplied food and
    qualify.  While this program does pay for meals, it does not completely
    cover the costs of providing meals.  The incentive of reimbursement is
    to insure that kids are being given good healthy meals.  There are
    parts of the country where the meals provided by the daycare are the
    ONLY balanced meals eaten during the day, mainly due to poverty.
    
    Dan

    Was wondering if I could get some thoughts on your daycare
    experiences.  
    
    Yesterday I went to pick up my daughter at daycare, a
    place we have been extremely happy with and my daughter loves, and
    found out through a letter they have a new director.  By the way the
    new director started yesterday.  There was a letter from the director
    who was leaving that decided she wanted to work with kids and not
    manage.  She is staying with the company, the YMCA, at a different
    facility.  My daughter is very fond of her.  Also, another person left
    recently who was close to my daughter (she moved home, out of state).0
    
    My initial reaction to the new daycare director is she seems quieter,
    and not as warm a person.  So I am going to schedule a meeting with her
    and check some other options at the same time.  We specifically picked
    a smaller daycare so we could know the people and have changes like
    this handled more personally.
    
    My questions are:
    
    1. Is this the ususal way a daycare transitions a director?  This day care
       has about 18 kids.
    
    2. Am I overreacting by wanting to check out a completely new 
       environment.  My thought is most of her teachers have changed, but
       I'm wondering if Lauren will miss the kids.
    
    Appreciate your thoughts...
    

    I think I would react as you have.  It's one thing if a teacher leaves,
    but quite another if the director leaves.  I know that if I ever choose
    to leave my day-care, I have to give them 2 weeks notice.  I would hope
    that the day-care would extend me the same courtesy of letting me know
    at least 2 weeks in advance before the director left.  
    
    Jane

    RE: Why popcorn is a no-no.
    
    Children of all ages choke easily on popcorn.
    
    Most of the things on the "Absolutly Not" list are there for many
    different reasons - some seem sillier than others but since its is
    government reimbursed they want to make sure they Cover Their Butts.
    
    
    Joyce

I would like to get thoughts from other parents on some daycare issues
I have been faced with. We have what we thought was an ideal
child care provider. An in home provider, taking care of my son
(2 days a week) and one other child (5 days a week), both since they were
3 months old, they are now 10 months old.

Everything was going along fine until the following situations
starting to show up.

1) We had agreed that we did not want our son ("Shleped around") taken
   places in a car, unless we knew ahead of time. Come to find out
   she was taking our son out at least twice/day. When dropping off
   her son at school and picking him up and sometimes to do shopping.

   My issue: We pay her to take care of our son in her home. This is her
             job we pay her $30/day to do this and we supply everything
             (Food, Toys, Crib,...). I am wrong in feeling this way,
             not wanting my son driven all over the place every day?
             Am I wrong to expect her to plan her schedule around
             the two days she takes care of my son?


2) Since our son is still taking 2 naps/day we have him on a schedule
   when he takes his morning and afternoon naps. the daycare provider
   seems to ignore our requests if they conflict with an errand or
   appointment.

3) My son has come home at least 4 time with a horse voice. This was
   due to crying for long periods of time. She denies he would cry
   for extended periods of time. We know better since it happened
   to us. She says she uses a baby monitor. We bought her one
   specifically for her to use with our son.



Am I to picky not wanting my son dragged around 2-3 times/day and
missing some of his nap time (Her response is "He slept in the car").
Am I paying her enough to provide the in home care that is expected?


When people take on the responsibility of providing daycare, aren't they
signing-up for employment. It's this a job and should be treated a such?
What I can't understand is how some of these daycare providers can take
your money and not change there daily schedule/habits to provide the
level of care that would be expected.

     Example: An in home environment that is clean and safe; planned schedules
              naps, meals, playtime; Activities to keep the child
              busy and out of trouble, not just plunked in front
              of the TV while she does house work.


Since this incident several other daycare provider have asked how we
felt about them taking our son on errands. Meaning they don't like
to stay home. 

Am I expecting to much? Any thoughts?

It's been many years since we were "playing the childcare game" but . . .

I don't think that you are expecting too much.  It sounds to me like she 
isn't really in to childcare, but rather sees it as an opportunity to pick up 
some money without unduly cramping her lifestyle, almost as if she treats it 
as a hobby.

In my opinion, a kid in daycare should be "schlepped around" only for their 
(the kids') benefit -- for example on a day trip if they're old enough -- or 
in an absolute emergency.  Trips to the grocery store or to pick up a child 
at school would be out, imo.

Clay  

Frankly, I'd be furious.  And I'd be looking for a new daycare provider --
one that I could trust to follow my instructions.  

- Deb

    
    I, on the other hand, chose an in-home provider so my daughter would be
    in more of a family environment. This to me includes those family
    errands that need to be done during the day. My provider did
    drop-off/pick-up of her son and another child for pre-school. I had no
    problems with her bringing my daughter along. Nor do I have problems
    with her going to the grocery store or even Xmas shopping. My daughter
    enjoys these jaunts. Yes, sometimes she'll fall asleep in the car
    earlier than her nap time and end up taking a short nap earlier than
    normal, but I've had this happen to me also. If the provider needs to
    go anyplace out of the ordinary (doctor's appt, dentist appt, etc),
    she'll let me know so I can make other arrangements for Anna, if I
    wish. Most times she'll bring Anna with her if it's okay with me. I
    usually don't have a problem. I feel it's good exposure for her, i.e.,
    she has been to the dentist a number of times with the provider and
    even sat in the chair. I feel this is helping to prepare her for when
    she goes for her first appt. Earlier this month the provider's husband
    was off work for the week. She didn't take the week off (though she
    could have per our contract), but asked for one day off as the family
    was going to Canobie Lake. Another day they went to Hampton Beach and
    Anna went with them. She had a ball!!! Her first trip to the ocean,
    which I may not have gotten around to experiencing with her for many
    years as I prefer fresh water. 
    
    Well, I've rambled enough. I guess if you don't want your child to be
    "schlepped around" then an in-home provider with children of their own
    is probably not the situation for you. I have no problems with my
    daughter going places with the provider, but that's just me.
    
    Patty

    I think the issue here is not whether a provider is taking a child
    somewhere, but an issue of trust - a provider that has not been
    honest with her employer. That in itself would be a reason for me
    not to continue such an arrangement. 
    I've had to learn to trust my provider - I've seen the way she cares
    for my child, and so I have learned that when she takes her out for
    a walk, or even, once or twice, on the bus, I know that she'll tell
    me when she is going to do this, and that she gives my daughter all
    the care and attention she needs. I still felt a little leary at first,
    but she ALWAYS tells me what she's planning, and I now KNOW what level
    of care she gives our daughter.
    
    If you do not have that trust, something has to be done.
    
    Monica

I agree with Patty.....  

My children are in an in-home daycare situation.  I have know problem with my
kids going in the car with her - If I can trust her at home with them I think 
I should be able to trust her to take them out of the house.  She also drops
off and picks up my oldest daughter at pre-school.  

Also - I wouldn't want my kids cooped up in her house all day - they often
take trips to a playground or Mcdonalds for lunch.  I think it's great that
she's willing to do things outside the home with them.  

Just my opinion.

Kirsten

It would appear that both you and the daycare provider made mistakes.

It sounds like you want a very structured environment for your child. An
in-home daycare situation, especially with only one other child, is unlikely
to provide that. While I can understand the issue of errands in general you
should have been aware enough to ask about how the provider got her child to
and from school if you were leery about the provider taking the child out of
the home.

The provider should have let you know up front that she would be transporting
your child at the time she had to take her own to school especially if you
broached the subject of taking the child out of the home. However, you used
the term "schlepped around" in your note. This could have been a matter of
interpretation. 2 trips a day, apparently necessary to transport the provider's
child to and from school, might not be considered being "schlepped around" by
the provider. Constantly running errands or taking the child on visits to
friends might well be what your provider felt was "schlepping around". This
individual might well have curtailed their lifestyle to provide care to other
children before accepting the responsibility you've given her but you both
could still have differing expectations. 

I remember this kind of anxiety.........

   >When dropping off
   >her son at school and picking him up and sometimes to do shopping.

Please help me understand though......
I have a 12 month old. He's been "schlepped" to and from *2* schools,
that's *4* trips a day for his entire life.  I can't think of a practical
way to get my other two children to and from school without taking the baby
with me in the car.  

(We won't mention soccer practice, gymnastics, baseball,
piano lessons, religion classes, school functions, parents meetings, doctor
appointments.......)

>   My issue: We pay her to take care of our son in her home. This is her
>             job we pay her $30/day to do this and we supply everything
>             (Food, Toys, Crib,...). I am wrong in feeling this way,
>             not wanting my son driven all over the place every day?
>             Am I wrong to expect her to plan her schedule around
>             the two days she takes care of my son?
  
   IMHO - this sounds more like a nanny than family home daycare 

>2) Since our son is still taking 2 naps/day we have him on a schedule
>   when he takes his morning and afternoon naps. the daycare provider
>   seems to ignore our requests if they conflict with an errand or
>   appointment.

See #1 -- almost daily I move my sleeping baby from his crib to the
carseat and vice versa.  I can't leave the other two out on the street!
If your son is really crabby and tired when you pick him up, the amount
of sleep he's getting might be an issue.


>3) My son has come home at least 4 time with a horse voice. This was
>   due to crying for long periods of time. She denies he would cry
>   for extended periods of time. We know better since it happened
>   to us. She says she uses a baby monitor. We bought her one
>   specifically for her to use with our son.

Yep, this is a hot button for me too.  I'm not sure what you mean
by "we know better it happened to us".  


>Am I to picky not wanting my son dragged around 2-3 times/day and
>missing some of his nap time (Her response is "He slept in the car").
>Am I paying her enough to provide the in home care that is expected?

Yes, No


>Since this incident several other daycare provider have asked how we
>felt about them taking our son on errands. Meaning they don't like
>to stay home. 

>Am I expecting to much? Any thoughts?

Again, IMHO you are describing a nanny or an au pair, someone who's
time is *dedicated* to providing care to your child.  In home daycare is
just that, the child is cared for in a home and adapts to the routine
of that household.  Lots of parents in this notesfile prefer nannys
or au pairs for a variety of reasons and probably share your concerns.


You would have fired me as a mom two kids ago!  {Schlepped six of 'em
to Chuck E. Cheese today}

Rochelle

	In my opinion, you have every right to be upset.

	Taking her child to school and picking him up would not
	be a problem for me, as a parent, as long as I was told in
	advance by my home care provider that that was the plan.

	Extra errands and taking my child out during the day for
	*her* convenience (not for the benefit of the children) without
	my knowledge would not be acceptable.  

	Ditto for letting my child cry to the point of hoarseness.

	Now, if all these things were understood up front and discussed,
	then I'd have no problem with it.

	My mother cares for my daugther, and I pay her half what you pay.
	If my mother wants to go out for errands during the day, she always
	mentions to me what she's going out for, and verifies that it's ok
	with me, which it always is.  The point is that she makes it known
	to me what her plans are.  I also know that my mother plans her
	errands around Emily's general nap times (I must admit, we don't
	adhere to a strict schedule, especially at home).

	The biggest question is, does this women have your child's best
	interest in mind, or is she putting your child second to her	
	errands ?  It sounds to me like your child is taking a back seat
	(no pun intended!) to your sitter's needs.

	By the way, I think $30 a day for in home care (especially if 
	unlicensed) is quite sufficient, compared to the going rates I've
	heard from friends.

	Lastly, in reference to Rochelle's reply, I think there's a difference
	between what I choose to do with my child and what I expect of my
	caregiver.  I, too, "schlep" Emily around on my day off, but I also
	know that I know her limits, and will make changes as needed.

	I don't think taking kids to Chuck E. Cheese's is the same as running
	out to pay bills, buy groceries, etc. (though more tiring, I'm sure ;-) )

Some interesting points of view here, especially .121, .123, and .125.  After 
reflecting on them, I'm inclined to change my opinion somewhat.

During our daycare years, we used a variety of daycare givers who provide the 
care in their homes.  We did NOT want them "schlepped around", and they never 
were.  To that extent, I disagree with .125 in that I think it IS reasonable 
to expect the daycare provider to dedicate themself to providing care to the 
child, and that doesn't make the provider an au pair to me.

But I do think that it's unrealistic (not impossible, I can envision some 
scenarios) to expect to find someone willing to do that if they are only 
caring for one or two kids; the economics just wouldn't allow it.  In all the 
cases I mentioned, the provider was taking care of several.  If that's the 
case, not only would the economics allow the provider to modify lifestyle to 
stay home, but practicality would almost demand it.

So I guess what I'd say is that it IS reasonable to expect a child to be 
cared for in the home, and not transported around at the convenience of the 
provider, but maybe not in this situation.  I would look for someone who 
agrees to that in advance (as some earlier notes have suggested); the 
drawback is that they will very likely care for more kids.  If that's not 
acceptable, look for an au pair.

Clay

    
    	Short and to the point here:
    
    	Our babysitter (daycare provider) keeps the kids at home. period.
    	She is not a nanny, she is not an au pair, she is a babysitter with
    which we have an understanding. The kids stay there and are *never*
    "schlepped around". 
    
    	It is far different to have me take the responsibility to take the
    kids on errands than it is to give that responsibility *away* by having
    someone else take the kids out. It is a risk that I prefer not taking.
                             
    			Wendy

    
    I think there's a BIG difference in the way the provider handles the
    "schlepping".  We've always used in-home daycare.  We're on our 5th
    provider now.  Three of them NEVER took the kids *ANYWHERE*.  One of
    them took the kids out "schlepping around", for no good reason (in my
    opinion), wasn't careful about buckling them in, paid no attention to
    nap times/meal times etc.  This was one of the primary reasons we
    stopped using her.  The woman I have now takes the kids out a couple
    times a day, for school drop-off/pick-up.  My infant will be starting
    with her in Oct, so he'll be in her van twice/day.  She would never
    **DREAM** of taking ANY kid ANYWHERE without buckling them up.  She has
    not been able to handle "special requests" for me before because it
    interfered with nap/meal times of the kids (proving to me that the kids
    come first), she is VERY reasonable about taking the kids out, and
    really avoids it if at all possible. I'd rather not have the baby
    driven around, but she's only going about 1 mile down the road and
    back, and I trust her completely.  Actually, she's probably a better
    driver than I am, so the baby's probably "safer" in the car with her. 
    (-:  
    
    I'm not sure if it's really reasonable or not to expect them to "never"
    go out.  The 3 people who never took the kids out, simply COULDN'T
    because they didn't have a car, or didn't have room for "all" the kids
    to fit in their car.  
    
    The biggest thing that I DON'T like about her taking the kids out, is
    that if she decides to go out "unexpectedly", and I decide to pick up
    the kids early, unexpectedly, we've missed each other a few times, and
    I end up waiting.  THAT'S really aggravating.  
    
    As for pay, in Nashua, I pay $90./wk full time for a 5-year old,
    $100/wk for an infant full time.  I would have to supply formula and
    diapers for the baby, but once the kids eat "normal" food, she supplies
    everything else.
    
    If you're adamant that you don't want your child to "go out", you'd
    probably be better off in a center, and I can't believe you'd be paying
    any more than what you pay now!
    
    
    

This note is being entered for a member of our community who wishes to
remain anonymous.  Her pseudonym for this string will be "Jane".

      Carol duBois, PARENTING Co-moderator

***************************************************

My two children both attend a local daycare center.  Recently the center
has expanded, thus accepting more kids in both its toddler and infant
programs.  I am rather ignorant in regards to what the Massachusetts state 
requirements are as far as caregiver/children ratios go and will check this
out with the state but perhaps some of you know as well.  There are 10 toddlers
and 2 caregivers in the toddler room and and 7 infants and 2 other caregivers
in the infant area. 

Today I learned that one of the primary caregivers in the toddler room is
resigning due to "burnout".  My husband and I have been extremely pleased
with the care she has provided our oldest during the last 2 years and 
consider her the backbone of the center (although there are other very
adept caring workers there).  Our oldest is just nuts about this woman
and truthfully I do feel it's a mutual admiration.  

We do not want to make any rash decisions because we have been very pleased
with the program at this center, but there has been a definite change over
the last few months.  I think it is due to the expansion.  Often times I
find all of the toddler's with just one person (not even one of the 
assigned primary caregiver's but a high school helper - even if it's only
for a few minutes, this does bother me).  There are a few toddlers that
are becoming big time biter's and this doesn't seem to be getting addressed.
(I know kids go thru stages, but one child is really quite aggressive).
Both primary caregivers in both rooms are not there when I pick up at
5:00 and instead it is generally one of the high school girls helping 
out that is there.  They too are competent but I like to talk with the
caregivers to see what type of day my kids had and not just read about it
on a note on their clipboard.  My husband and I are guilty for not speaking
up (I know).  But now I can't help but wonder is some of this "burnout"
is due to the changes that have been made.

I guess what I want to know without dragging this down, is if you were in
my position would you approach the person leaving to see if she would
even entertain taking my kids on privately.  Part of me REALLY likes the
idea of daycare, the activities, the stimulation, the interaction, etc.,
but part of me feels the QUALITY has diminished (in terms of how it was
a year ago) and I'm frightened that it will diminish even more with the
departure of this particular person.  I also understand that this woman
may not even WANT to take on kids privately.

"Jane"

The general rule of thumb that has been expressed
here many times is that if you have doubts about
your daycare, then you should probably change it.

That said, it is pretty normal for people to burn
out in daycare.  It is an underpaid, high stress
job.  While I personally would have absolutely
no problem approaching someone who has already
resigned their job, I have doubts whether you 
should ask this person.  I don't know that I 
would want my kids with someone who is tired of 
daycare.  *BUT*, definitely ask her if she would 
be available for babysitting.

The other stuff - staff scheduling, etc, you
should bring up to the director.  You should
be able to talk to the primary caregivers at
least once a day, but not necessarily the same
one every day.

Biting is a very difficult issue, and may or may
not be related to the increase of kids.  My gut
feeling is that it is not (having *lots* of biter
experience, with my daughter).  More likely it is
something with the kid or his/her family than with
the daycare itself.  (Some biters can be pretty
aggressive, but, with help, they learn to control
themselves).

Recently, I had doubts about my kids' daycare, and
decided to go evaluate other centers.  I found that
even with my doubts, I felt I had the best care for
my kids.  I recommend you do the same thing.  Either
you'll find better care, or you will feel more
comfortable with the current situation.

Pat

    
    Funny your ultimate question should be about approaching her.  I was
    thinking as I was reading your note...hey, why not come work at your
    house with your two kids....unless she has other plans.
    
    -sandy
    

    My daycare provider previously worked at a daycare center but found
    that she was just too stressed out from dealing with so many kids. 
    Since childcare was the profession she really wanted to stay in, she
    decided to open a family care situation.  Now she takes in just what
    and whom she feels she can handle; her limit is 4 at any one time.  I
    think it works out great all around, she's happy and the kids get lots
    of attention.
    
    I'd definitely ask the departing teacher what her plans are.  If she's
    not currently interested in caring for kids she may be in the future
    (once she's regrouped herself).  Why not also ask her that if in the
    future she decides to get back into childcare to give you a call.  That
    way if things haven't worked themselves back out in the center you have
    a promising alternative.
    
    /Susan
    
    

>The general rule of thumb that has been expressed
>here many times is that if you have doubts about
>your daycare, then you should probably change it.

    This is very true, but when you're in a situation as mine (single mom,
    limited income, can't really afford daycare so you do what you can
    afford), sometimes you just don't have a choice.  Right now, if I could
    find someone else to watch my son for what I can afford to pay them and
    know that my son is being taken care of just the way I would like him
    to be, I would take him out of where he is now.  He's not being abused
    or neglected in any way, just the person who's watching him is in it
    for the money and nothing else.  In my opinion, she's lazy and doesn't
    spend enough quality time with my son.  I know, I'm the one who should
    be giving him the quality time, but let's face it, he's with this woman
    10 hours a day and all he does is puzzles, blocks and watches Barney.
    She never does anything constructive with him, like taking him to the
    park or out for walks or anything like that.  But like I said, I don't
    have the money for suitable daycare, so I do what I can do for the time
    being.
    
    Lori B.

This note is being entered anonymously for "Jane".

        Carol duBois, PARENTING co-moderator

************************************************************

I've just learned about Massachusetts ratios.

The Massachusetts ratio according to OFC is 9 toddlers with 1 teacher,
and 1 assistant and 7 infants for 1 teacher and 1 assistant.  They
can not transfer into preschool programs until 2.9 years.  And if
there is an infant/toddler mix, they can have 3 infants under 15 months
of age and 6 toddlers over age 15 mos (thus equating to the 9 kids)
with the same 1 teacher/1 assistant ratio.  My childcare center is
in compliance...I think.

  "Jane"

Just to add to .135..



	In an in-home situation as opposed to a center, the single
	provider can have up to 6 children (she must include her own
	in that count) and no more than 2 infants.  Not sure if the
	cut-off for infants is 15 months or 2.9 years.

	Karen

I'd go with my (and my husband's) gut reaction.  If we both felt really
comfortable with the situation, then I'd stay with it.  If I had
any misgivings, I'd start looking for new daycare.  Changing daycare is
tough on the entire family, but so is staying in a daycare situation that
no longer fits.

Best of luck.

- Deb

Hello,

I just have to report on my daycare situation.  Right now it is going
great!!!  I recently changed daycares and wished I had done it a lot
sooner!!!  

I replied a several times complaining about the care my son was getting.
I thought I was being an overprotective mom or too picky...why wasn't
I happy...everyone else was?  Well, it was my gut feeling that I didn't
like the place, it took a year to move him though.  The final straw
was when I complained to the director of the center because my son
didn't get his breakfast (this was the 3rd time) and she said, 'well
obviously you don't trust your caregiver'.   I immediately started 
looking for a new place after that because I knew it was true.

I've only been at the new daycare for 2 weeks, but I am absolutely
thrilled!!!  I almost passed out yesterday when the teacher said,
'of course we take off the children shoes at naptime..there feet
have to airout'.  At the old daycare...Bradley would come home with
sand in his shoes that was there since 10am!!  (*lots* of sand too)

Next time I will listen to my gut feeling and react immediately!
I can't believe I waited 12 months!

Lynne

    
    
       We're trying to do some home work on finding part time daycare in
    anticipation of returning to a part time position.
    
    	We'd be looking for 15-25 hours a week, in-home (ideally but 
    negotiable) for 3 children - 3, 16 months, 3 months.
    
    	Does anyone have an idea of how easy it would be to find this?
    What we may expect to pay (Westford, MASS area)?  How far in
    advance to start looking?
    
    
    thanks.

    I would like to know people's opinions about the value of daycare
    center preschool programs for 3-year-olds.  I'm not looking for a
    theoretical discussion, but for the experiences of parents who have
    used or merely evaluated such programs.
    
    I'm asking because I am contemplating a change in my daughter's care. 
    She is 3 1/2.
    
    She has been in a preschool program 1/2 days for a year now, going to a
    babysitter in the afternoons.  Her new babysitter has 3 girls from 2 to
    5, and my daughter gets lots of play time and socialization.  The mom
    takes the kids places, they play outside, they do some crafts at home,
    and the general situation is stimulating.  I'm in a financial bind, and
    can save $165 per month by having her fulltime at the babysitter, whose
    own 3-year-old won't start preschool until next September.  I could
    save the same amount by putting my daughter fulltime at the preschool,
    but for a number of reasons I don't like this option.
    
    My question boils down to this - is my daughter likely to suffer
    educationally if I withdraw her from the preschool?  (I'm fairly
    certain she's be fine emotionally, if not happier.)  Also, if I do
    withdraw her now, at what age do you think she really will need the
    program - 4?  She'll definitely need private kindergarten (none
    available in my NH town) but that's a ways off, and I'm just trying to
    plan for the next year.  My daughter will turn 4 in October.  I'll
    almost certainly put her in preschool along with her babysitter's
    daughter in the fall, if I can swing it financially.  So what I'm
    really talking about is taking her out for 9 months (hopefully not
    longer) while I regroup.  Worst case, it could be a year to 18 months.
    I definitely want her in school by age 5.
    
    Ideas?
    
    Laura
    

Laura,

    I am really glad you raised this question. I have the same
questions you do.  Here is the advice I have recieved so far from
my daughters former pre-school teacher:

I enrolled my daughter in 3-yr-old pre-school this year.  She loved
it, but getting her to and from school was a logistical nightmare.
I had a lengthy discussion with her teacher in October to decide
whether to leave her in pre-school or take her out.

In a nutshell, her teacher told me that the goal of 3-yr-old 
pre-school (at least in her classroom in our school) was to teach the 
kids disciplin, independance, and social etiquette (for example, 
sitting still during story time, cleaning up after yourself, putting 
your own coat on).  She felt that academics should not be taught
until the children had "developed a framework in which to learn in
school" (her words).  She told me that in her experience with my 
daughter, there was no great advantage to leaving her in school at 
that age.

She did feel that 4-yr-old pre-school was more academically-oriented.
She advised me to seriously consider putting my daughter in pre-school 
the following year.  She claimed that 10 or 20 years ago, very few
people sent their children to pre-school and nobody suffered from
lack of education.  But nowadays most parents send their kids to
pre-school.  Because of this trend, a child who enters kindergarden
without having attended pre-school is at a slight disadvantage
compared to thier peers.

What do other parents feel?  I know my daughter would love to go back
to school in September.  But I am having difficulty justifying the
expense and the serious inconvenience.

    My son was in family daycare full-time til this year when he started
    kindergarten 1/2 days. I never felt pulled to put him into preschool
    since I've always been of the impression that the primary reason for
    preschool is to learn some social skills in a group setting, as prep
    for school.
    
    The first 2 months of kindergarten is strictly review and beginner work
    for those kids who either didn't go to preschool or have some exposure
    to things like colors etc. My son was pretty bored during that time,
    having learned much of what was being covered in his family daycare
    environment and at home. We never did structure things at home but they
    have always done crafts and various cutting/pasting at daycare, which
    to me sufficed. He also knew his alphabet and could count prior to
    entering kindergarten.
    
    I find that part of it depends on your community - in ours, many
    children at home with one parent during the day and so preschool is an
    option for some socialization and early learning. I have not seen that
    kindergarten is advanced,nor that kids are at a disadvantage for not
    having been at preschool.
    
    Lynn
    

    My oldest son started pre-school when he was 4, my middle son went when
    he was 3.  I really don't think that there was any advantage to going
    when he was 3, and we really mostly did that because my daycare's
    daughter was going, so they went together.  Now he's almost 6 and it
    seems like he's been learning the SAME things for 3 years.  The only
    noticeable difference between the two boys that you might be able to
    credit to starting school sooner, is that the younger of the 2 has a
    much stronger "base".  He's more comfortable with letters/numbers, and
    knows his alphabet and letter-placement (like is W near the beginning,
    middle or end of the alphabet), a little better.  But, Jason's a little
    more spacial anyway, so that may just be his personality.
    
    Of all of it, I think the most important thing is that the child be
    socializing with other children.  We had Chris at home with either his
    father or me till he was just about 4.  I think that this had a serious
    negative impact on his development, and learning to socialize and fit
    in with other kids.  There's a lot to be said for having a "bunch" of
    kids together, and how that fosters bringing out the strength in
    individuals and developing "leadership" skills.  
    
    So, I wouldn't hesitate to pull her out.  And from what I've seen with
    Nashua anyway, is that any of the private schools are *SO* far ahead of
    the public schools, it'll never be a problem.  Chris learned to read
    the summer between kindergarten and 1st grade.  They didn't get into
    reading in public school till 1/2 way through 1st grade, so he was a
    little bored with it.  Fortunately they put him in an advanced reading
    program, but if it weren't for that, he'd have been bored to death and
    probably have done poorly "in general" because he was just a bit above
    everyone else.
    
    Good Luck!
    

    To follow up, I withdrew my daughter from preschool.  Her last day will
    be this Friday.  I'm more upset about it than she is.  I feel very
    disappointed that I can't afford it (due to unpaid child support).  
    
    She is excited about spending all day with her new friends, the
    babysitter's daughters.  The babysitter keeps them busy with lots of
    activities, including going to the library.  She'll take them to the
    pool and the beach in the summer.  I think I will get over my sadness
    about this when I see that my daughter is still happy, challenged, and
    well-behaved.  (And when I see that my budget is in the black!)
    
    Before making the decision, I had a long conference with the daycare
    center director who reassured me that my daughter will not be set back
    educationally.  I will provide my daughter with at least one year of
    kindergarten (private in my NH town) before first grade.
    
    I've learned that the primary value of preschool is social.  It teaches
    kids to get along with their peers, and to follow school routines.  My
    daughter has already benefited from this environment and I'm sure she
    won't lose it. 
    
    My babysitter is investigating some local preschool/kindergartens that
    are not daycare centers, just schools.  They are substantially less
    expensive than most daycare centers.  Money permitting, we
    will place our 4-year-old daughters in such a preschool in the fall, 
    probably for 3 mornings per week.  
    
    If I ask, she'll look into music lessons, gymnastics, dance class, and
    other opportunities.  She's willing to take my daughter to classes. 
    My daughter will probably end up with a richer total experience when we
    implement all these changes.  I am lucky to have found this babysitter.
    
    Laura

    Re:  -1:
    
    I'm not sure where you're located but registration for
    Preschools/Kindergartens is usually held in January for the following
    school year.  This is true for the majority of Merrimack schools (St.
    James, PTA, ACT, etc.)  All the schools should have waiting lists
    however and there is usually quite a bit of movement between January
    and when school actually starts.
    
    

    Thanks, I'll recommend that my babysitter get on top of registration
    now.  
    
    Laura

    
    Hello,
    
    Does anyone know of a daycare situation that allows the use of
    cloth diapers?  My husband and I want to go that way, but I'll
    still be working full-time.  If we can't find daycare that will 
    let us use cloth, we'll have to use disposables..... no sense in 
    buying both!
    
    thanks,
    patty
    

    
    Actaully there is a lot of sense in buying both.
    
    	If you are using cloth for money reasons, it is still cheaper to
    use them at least part of the time at home rahter than not at all.
    
    	If you are concerned about the environment, then the same reasoning
    applies.
    
    	Eve if you planed to use cloth *all* of the time, I'm willing to
    bet that at least once in awhile you would be using a disposalbe or
    two. 
    
    	My personal philosophy is that you can never have enough cloth
    diapers, even though we use disposables, I must have at least 5 dozen
    cloth diapers (gotten for 2 dollars at a yard sale) that I use for
    dusting, wiping up spills, spit up cloths, etc, etc, etc,
    
    			       	Wendy
    
    	

    RE .148
    
    Children's World in Chelmsford allows cloth diapers although you have
    to take the dirty ones from that day home everynight.  My daughter wore
    them until she was about 8 months old and they didn't have a problem
    with them.  I however did not like bringing home the bag of dirty
    diapers every night - especially in the warmer weather.  They are not
    allow to touch the diapers when they change them so the whole diaper
    and contents get dumped into a plastic bag and tied.  Untying lots of
    little bags of dirty diapers when I got home every night wasn't too much 
    fun either.
    
    Klub Kid in Clemsford allows them - at least they did 3 years
    ago when I was first looking for daycare.  At Klub Kid you had to
    supply a diaper pail so I don't think you had to take the dirty ones
    home every night.
    
    Carol

I agree with Wendy, for the reason she stated.

We used primarily cloth, but there was one daycare that insisted on 
disposable, so we complied.  It was really no problem.  There were also some 
situations in which disposables made a lot more sense.  Additionally, having 
a small supply of disposables enabled us to keep the number of diapers down 
(we used a service); if we DID happen to run out, we just used disposables.

Clay

The Children's Place in Carlisle, MA  will use cloth.

    
    
    QUESTION??
    
    My friend is due to have her baby anyday now.  She is also a noter. 
    She wants to know what is the average rate for providers.  This person
    hasn't did care in a while.  And doesn't know what to charge, nor does
    my friend know what to pay her.  They both live in the Shrewsbury, MA
    area.
    
    She is also concern with wether she should pay by the hour or weekly. 
    There will be times when her husband will have days off/or will get off
    early or go in late.
    
    Thanks
    Leslie
    

    I have used a daycare center in neighboring Westboro for some time. 
    When Paige was an infant (five years ago), the rate was $160/week (up
    to 50 hours).  I'm not sure what their infant rate is now ($175 seems
    to ring a bell), but I can check.  If you are late there, it is $1/minute.
    
    For in-house providers (my house or babysitter's house), I generally
    pay $3 per kid per hour (in Auburn, MA).  I pay by the hour, but I work
    part-time, erratic hours.  If I'm later than expected, I tend to "round
    up."  That's a little higher than the going rate, I think (I know
    several people who pay $2.50/hour), but it's worth it to me for the
    flexibility.   
    
    Tracy
    

From a payers standpoint, we found it easier to pay by the week (or day).  
That way you don't have to record exactly when you drop your child off or 
when you pick her/him up, or if you pick the child up for, say, a doctor's 
appointment.  It's also easier to budget.

From the providers standpoint, it provides a more predictable income.

Of course, there are advantages to paying by the hour also.

Clay

	Cost of daycare really depends on the town you are in.  In Milford
	MA, daycare ran arount $135/week.  In Medway, our provider is
	charging $155.  In Boston, daycare could be over $200!

	I'd pay by the week.  For instance, our provider is $4/hour and
	40 hours would be $160!  Our daughter is in daycare 45+ hours
	so we do better with the weekly rate.

	Karen

    There's also a big difference between in-home and centers.  The baby's
    in a woman's home right now, for $100.00/wk.  She'll be stopping the
    end of April, and the cheapest center I've been able to find is
    $140.00/wk for him.  There was one place that wanted $858.00/mo for
    him!  PLUS I had to supply all his food (no matter what age).
    
    Jason is in a private kindergarten/daycare.  If I paid his school and
    daycare "a la carte", it'd amount to about $155.00/wk.  Going with the
    weekly rate, it's $115.00/wk.
    
    Call around!  This is in Nashua, NH.
    
    
    Patty

    I have my two children at a home day care in Manchester, NH.  The woman
    was an elementary teacher prior to starting the daycare.  She feeds the
    children a hot lunch (menus published), two snacks, and  keeps one set of 
    "play clothes" which she launders, and has an established schedule of 
    activities....  All of this for $135.00/wk salary.  I was paying $80.00
    for one child. She is licensed, and cpr certified.  The only drawback
    is she takes 4 weeks of (unpaid) vacation per year.

This is a response to 2.272.  Since topic 2 is specifically for daycare 
available inquiries, and this point is more general, I'm replying here.  If 
any other noters know of a more appropriate place, let me know (I thought we 
had a list of questions to ask daycare providers, but that may have been in a 
previous version)

>When I called to get some references from them, they readily gave me names 
>of 2 people who have 2 children in their school but they were hesitant to 
>give me names of people whose children have since left their center. The 
>director asked why I would be interested in talking to these people and told 
>me to call back for those names. I thought that was a bit strange. I usually 
>ask all day care providers for current and previous names as references.

I understand your point, and your reason for asking.

However, I think that giving out a phone number of a current or former client 
is an invasion of their privacy.  I know I would be offended if one of my 
former daycares gave out my phone number to a stranger.  Not everybody 
feels this way, but there are enough that the daycare center director 
would be imo justifiably reluctant to just give out the number without 
asking first.

For current clients, she can either ask that day, or some current clients 
have previously indicated their willingness.  For former clients, she can't 
ask that day, and I don't think many daycares, especially centers, would be 
inclined to ask, when a person leaves, if they would be willing to be listed 
as a reference.

If she isn't able or willing to provide the names, then I'd suggest counting 
that as a factor in your selection, but not an automatic yes or no.  But also 
keep in mind that even the worst of prospective daycare providers (or 
prospective employees, for that matter) can find SOMEONE who will speak 
positively about them.  

Clay

    RE: .-1
    
    I too would be a bit offended if my name and number was arbitrarily
    given out.  We have had a number of people who no longer use our
    service (my wife provides care in our home).  We have asked those who
    left if we can use them as a reference.  If they agree, we usually try
    and let them know when someone will call so they know its not a crank
    call.  Also, we have not yet had a bad parting of the ways. (Just lucky
    I guess...)
    
    Dan

My day care provider gave my husband a form notice stating she wants a $100 
deposit by April 29 for the summer months. My experience with day care only
covers the last six months so I'm wondering if this request is routine.  

Most of the children in this center only go part time.  Perhaps her experience
has been that many people take the summer off and she wants to be assured a 
certain number of children.  I can certainly understand that. My son has gone 2 
days per week the last six months and will continue this rate unless my husband
finds a job. He definitely won't stop day care over the summer.

My husband didn't ask her more details, like WHY she is doing this.  I plan to
call and get more details. I was annoyed she made the request with a bulleted
form with several options to choose from and the one checked off was she wants
a deposit.  Before I call her I wanted to find out from others if this is
standard practice in day care?  

Thanks for any guidance.

Kathy

        <<< Note 112.161 by OBSESS::COUGHLIN "Kathy Coughlin-Horvath" >>>
                              -< Summer deposit? >-


<My day care provider gave my husband a form notice stating she wants a $100 
<deposit by April 29 for the summer months. My experience with day care only
<covers the last six months so I'm wondering if this request is routine.  

Kathy,

Our daycare center has a $35.00 per year, per family registration fee.  It
was due last month.  Attached to the notice was a bulleted form - basically
asking what our plans for next year are.  I think this has more to do with
the kids leaving for kindergarten and coming for day camp than the smaller 
ones.  The school needs to know how many of the existing kids will be 
continuing for staffing arrangements.

Summer is probably the most popular time to switch daycare arrangements.

Thanks,

Rochelle

    
    I have to pay a yearly registration fee (different amounts at different
    daycares), and indicate well ahead of time (it was due in last month),
    if the kids will be there during the summer.  For any weeks that I want
    to take off, at one place I need to pay a $60.00/wk "holding" fee (to
    hold the child's spot, as opposed to $115./wk if there).  The other
    place I need to let them know by next week, what week(s) they won't be
    coming.
    
    I've never heard of a deposit "ahead of time" - but these daycares are
    also paid a week in advance.  i.e. I pay today, for next week.
    
    In the home-daycare I used to use, she was paid at the end of the week
    of service, and she had 2 weeks paid vacation in the summer, payable
    during those weeks, not ahead of time.
    
    Seems unusual to me
    
    Patty

    
    Meg -
    
    Actually it's Jamd, short for Julie annemarie
    
    "donna" is just my version of Don Quixote, since I seem to frequently
    tilt at windmills
                         
    :-)

Very long and rattling note follows - you can tell this has been bothering me...
Basically, we're trying to decide what room my daughter should be in at daycare.
Here are the gory details and background information:

My 19 month old daughter Erin attends a daycare center.  Overall, we are very
happy with the care she receives, as well as how the center is run.  It is
very convenient, both in its location and in its hours, meals provided, 
holidays, everything.

She started there at 4 months old in the infant room (obviously).  At that
time, the policy of the center was to move kids into the next room when they
started walking.  They had other developmental milestones for moving the kids
after that, but I didn't pay close attention to them when we were looking 
around as we had enough to worry about.

Well, last summer they changed the policy.  Now, they only move kids to any
room at two dates during the year.  One in June and the other in August/
September.  This makes it easier for them because they also run a kindergaten
and since the transitions to the older rooms are more rigid, they felt it
was better to funnel this down to the younger rooms as well.  Since Erin wasn't
walking last August (she was 10 months) she stayed in the infant room where
she still is.  The criterion that they use now to determine where to place
a child is birthdate - must be X on or before September 30 to be in a room.
Erin's birday is October 4.

We decided to stick with this center since we liked it so much - in January
they made some changes to give the older kids in the infant room more of a
toddler room environment (at infant room prices!) - they eat at a table, sleep
on mats, brought in some older toys, etc.  But Erin seems bored in this room
and although she plays with the younger kids and toys I feel she isn't being
challenged as much as she could.  She is the oldest, and says a good number of
words (but no phrases) which is more than the other "older infants."  The one
kid in her room that she played with the most, he is a month younger than her,
is leaving the center at the end of this week.  There is another girl close
to her age in her room, but she is part time and only there a couple days a
week.

At the end of June she is going to move into the "young toddlers" room.  
Luckily, at this point she will not be the oldest, there will be three other
kids there that won't transition out of this room until August.  But in
August, she would be the oldest again, and I'm afraid will be in the same
situation she is in now - not challenged and possibly bored.  I would like
her to move into the "older toddlers" room in August along with these other
older kids.

I have spoken to her current teachers, the teachers in the "young toddler"
room, and our doctor.  Pretty much I haven't gotten any hard recommendations,
just a lot of wishy-washy-ness.  The motivation for the cut-off date from
the center is that they are being consistent with the town so that kids that
don't pass the town's test to go to first grade early won't have to repeat
kindergaten and be bored.  My take on this is that we don't live in this town,
our town does have public kindergarten, if Erin doesn't get into this 
kindergarten we can send her to the one at daycare, a private one, perhaps
even decide on private school for her.  It seems like we are being forced to
plan her school career when she is 1.  The teachers in the "young toddler"
room insist she would not be bored there.  I know she won't be when she
gets there, I'm concerned about next Spring.  

Most of my friends say definitely try to get her into the older room.  I
want to do the right thing for her, I don't want to seem like I am pushing
her.  I would like to wait and see how she does during the summer being in
the same class with some older kids, but I doubt we will have that long to
make a decision.  We have a meeting scheduled with the director on Monday.

The worst drawback I see in having Erin change rooms on August 29th is that
I am expecting our second child on August 20th.  However, moving rooms at
the same daycare would be less traumatic than changing daycares, which we
would do if we decide that that is the best thing to do if we disagree with
the decision made by the director.

Comments please!!!
Jackie

	I don't have any answers, but I can certainly sympathize with 
	you.  As I mentioned, just yesterday, in 486.54, Andy will be 
	changing daycare centers next month.

	The center he has been in since he was 10 months old moved 
	children between rooms, based on both development level, and 
	space availability.  I thought the criteria was pretty 
	logical.  They go something like...

	    young infants  : six weeks old +
	    older infants  : could now walk, and starting to use 
	                     a spoon/sippy cup (about 10-12 months)
	    young toddlers : could now sit in push-in chairs, rather than 
	                     high-chairs, and could feed themselves/use cup
	                     without lid (but still lots of spills! ~18 mnths)
	    older toddlers : better language skills, and starting to 
	                     "sit on the potty" (although many are still 
	                     in diapers)

	Andy is in the older toddler room.  When he moves to the new center 
	this summer, he will be in a group based on age (2-3 year olds).  
	This center does not have kids younger than 2 (they recently 
	expanded from only taking 2.5+).  In the fall, his "mixed" group 
	will split into a "2-year-old" class, and a "3-year-old" class.  

	Andy will still be two in September, and doesn't turn three until 
	early November.   So, that will place him in the 2-year-old class.  
	I talked to the assistant director at his current center, and she 
	feels that most of his skills (letters, numbers, colors, etc) will 
	be beyond most of the other 2-year-olds.  In addition, he is tall 
    	for his age, so will probably also be the biggest child there.
    
    	My current feeling is that I'm just going to let him enjoy being 
    	with the mixed group for the summer (they have a great playgroud, 
    	and plan to have a few fieldtrips as well).  Then, in the fall, the 
    	teachers will know him better, and may base their judgement on that.
    
	Again, I don't have any answers, but I'm as curious as you are 
	as to how people have handled having a "Fall-Baby".  I agree that 
	2-3 is awfully young to be planning my child's educational career.  
	My tendency is to let him be a kid as long as possible...  But, I 
	can't help wondering if he might get bored (or aggressive) if he 
    	begins to find himself always being the oldest/biggest.

	Peggy

Peggy,

Thanks for your comments.  

I would ideally like the teachers to evaluate Erin over the summer when she is
in with a mixed group in the young toddler room.  However, since I'm not sure
about space in the various rooms in the center (I do know the young toddler
room has a waiting list for the fall) I don't want to lock her out of any
possibilities by having the older toddler room fill up while I wait.

I know one other family in this situation, at another daycare with the same
operating procedures.  Their son who's birthday is October 1 is in with the
older kids.  But he is quite big for his age.  Erin is average weight and
height, and I don't want her pushed around by kids a year older than her.
But in the current room, she is has been a little rough with the babies a
couple of times, so I don't want her to be a bully either.

Jackie

    I'm in a similar situation, and so far, I haven't decided what to do.
    
    My (Oct. 19, '90)  daughter is with a babysitter full time.  We had
    tentative plans for my daughter and the sitter's (Aug. '90) daughter to
    attend a part-time preschool together this fall.
    
    Now the school she picked for her (Aug. '90) daughter has a cutoff date
    for the class.  It is September or October 1 birthdays, I don't recall
    which.  Anyway, the result is that the kids won't be in class together. 
    The school's rationale is that in our town, there is a (Sept. or Oct.?) 
    cutoff for entry to first grade.  
    
    I've known for some time that our schools have this cutoff.  I figured,
    oh well, my daughter will just get an extra year of daycare and be the
    dominant child in her mostly-younger class.  At least she'll be at an
    advantage.
    
    Now I'm seeing the flip side.  I'm afraid my daughter will feel
    rejected and put down as a baby because her pal, who is the same age
    (most of the year) and the same or lower development level, will go to
    school and my daughter will probably wait another year or at least
    another 5 months.  
    
    I am considering not starting her until January or next September
    because she won't be in class with her pal anyway, and because I have a
    full extra year of daycare and kindergarten to pay for at $600/month.
    
    Its even worse because my daughter had a year of toddler room and
    preschool at an excellent daycare center before going full-time with
    the babysitter.  So she is accustomed to the school routine and likes
    it.  She is advanced for her age socially and in verbal skills.  
    
    Now that her pal is enrolled for September, my daughter talks a
    lot about school.  I really don't know what I'll do.  I don't know yet
    whether I'll get child support from her dad next year, and without the
    money it is hard to make ends meet.  I'm already paying $100/quarter
    for her to attend gymnastics with the sitter's kids.  I want my
    daughter to have the best, but I just can't afford it, and to have her
    feel snubbed by going in a younger room really hurts us both.
    
    At this point, I think I'll enroll my daughter at that school if I the
    deposit is refundable, and wait to see if I get child support, and if I
    can afford the school even with the child support.  Heck, I might be
    unemployed by then, so who knows where we'll be. . .
    
    Feeling low,
    Laura

Laura,

Elspeth has a September 26 birthday.  When she was in kindergarten, we were
incredulous that her school insisted on a second year of kindergarten instead of
enrolling her in first grade; and we were very upset because her best friend,
only a few months older, *did* go into first grade.

Seven years later, it seems clear that her teachers were absolutely correct
about the best thing for Elspeth; and Bonnie is still her best friend, even
though she moved away from NH four years ago, and the two of them only see each
other a week or two each year.

Your mileage may be nothing like ours, of course, but sometimes things really do
work out for the best (and sometimes the school really knows best!).

	-Neil

Neil,

Could you share with us the reasons that Elspeth's kindergarten teacher
recommended that she repeat that year?  Was the cut-off date the end of
September and they automatically put her into kindergarten (the first 
year) or did they evaluate her then?  Did she go through a formal evaluation
for first grade, or was it just the recommendation of her teacher that
she repeat?

Laura,

Although it sounds as though you have decided against the preschool, did
you talk with the people there about possibly putting your daughter into
the older class?  I would think that a private preschool or daycare would
be more flexible in this regard, but maybe I am wrong.  I know other parents
in a similar situation with a fall baby using parochial school as an 
alternative.  I don't know what we will do when it comes time for public
school, hopefully at that point we will have more concrete reasons either 
for keeping Erin with her class or trying to get her into the year ahead.

I know that this is some of the motivation behind my center's policy, as
they don't want kids to have to repeat and be left behind their friends
if the town doesn't let them get into first grade early.  I will stress
to the director that this won't apply to us, since we do not live in the
same town as this center.

Keep those comments coming, we are scheduled to meet with the director on
Monday afternoon.

Jackie

.170:

> Could you share with us the reasons that Elspeth's kindergarten teacher
> recommended that she repeat that year?  Was the cut-off date the end of

It wasn't completely unexpected.  Pine Hill has a one-or-two-year kindergarten
program.  We knew when we enrolled her that, according the the school's usual
rules (a September 1 cutoff), she would be spending two years in kindergarten.
But of course, we expected them to waive the rule for our brilliant child. :-)

Her kindergarten teacher agreed that she was intellectually ready for first
grade, but believed that in terms of overall development / maturity, she would
be better waiting another year.  As I said above, in retrospect, she was
entirely right.  There is *much* more to being ready for first grade than just
intellectual ability.

(This can be an continuing story.  You choose a school because you have a
general belief in the teachers -- their experience, judgement, etc.  Then what
do you do when those teachers challenge your own assumptions?  Do you still
trust their judgment?  Sometimes they're right; sometimes you're right.  Over
the years, it can be a learning experience for everyone, not just your children.)

> year) or did they evaluate her then?  Did she go through a formal evaluation
> for first grade, or was it just the recommendation of her teacher that
> she repeat?

At Pine Hill, the kindergarten teachers have the first say (although not
necessarily the final say) in whether a child is ready for first grade, though
they normally stay with the age guidelines.  They are evaluating the children
throughout the year, informally, but according to a large collection of
more-or-less objective developmental criteria, ranging from classroom behavior
to whether they've learned to skip.

	-Neil

We changed my daughter's daycare when she was 18months.  She was
at a place that went from infant to 3yrs.  When we changed her to
a new place that had 20 kids ranging from 14m - 5y, she seemed to
blossom.  As first time parents we didn't really think she was
missing anything and were happy with the original daycare.  But the
new one had more activities due to the older children.  She is in
the young toddler room; does art everyday, has a circle time,
interacts with the older kids.  This daycare also moves by milestones
not necessarily age.  Moving her to the next "room" also a matter 
of availability.

Well,  the meeting with the daycare center director went better than I
was expecting.

The director said that legally she couldn't move Erin until after she turns
2 in October, because the teacher/child ratios in each room are state mandated.
(The young toddler room is 2:10, the older toddler room is 3:18).   But that
she could hold a spot in the older room and see when the time comes.  She 
said that there were more kids in the YT room within a five month span of 
Erin than in the OT room (5 versus 4).  Three of the kids in are 14 months, 
and Erin at 19 months just seems to be in another league from these kids.  
They don't do the art work that Erin does, they are being spoon fed baby food, 
it doesn't seem like the same developmental level.  Maybe in a couple of months 
these kids will have caught up, but I still see it as Erin would be dragged 
behind in this group.

The director mentioned that there is a little girl a year older than Erin
who was "significantly advanced" who was moved ahead into the next room.
She said if Erin was "significantly advanced" in October they could move
her, but she didn't see her as being "significantly advanced" at this point.
(yes, she did keep using that same phrase..)  I agree, Erin's doctor says she
is a bit above average with her verbal skills (definitely says more than any
of the other kids in her current class), and I think she's always been above 
average with her fine motor skills, but I know she's not at a 2 year old 
level yet.  At least her teachers during the summer can see her in a mixed 
group and give us a good opinion, and then we can do what's best for her.

Thanks for all the feedback,
Jackie 

>I agree, Erin's doctor says she
>is a bit above average with her verbal skills (definitely says more than any
>of the other kids in her current class), and I think she's always been above 
>average with her fine motor skills, but I know she's not at a 2 year old 
>level yet.  

I think it's great that you perceive your daughter as objectively as this.  
Not all parents do.

I also think that while you should strive to get your daughter in the right 
place, if she spends a year in a group that is a little less challenging 
(or more challenging) than would be ideal it won't permanently damage her.  
After all, many kids in home daycare or with at home parents are the only kid 
in their age group, and most of them grow up just fine.

Clay

Thank you Clay,

Through all of this I am trying really hard to remain objective and do what
is best for Erin.

I was often bored in school, or I was doing two level ahead spelling or
math by myself, so I don't want her to fall into a similar situation.  I
also realize that most of the comments I have received from my Ivy League
college friends to push her ahead probably reflect their similar learning
experiences.  But who knows if Erin will be an over achiever or a perfectly
fine average kid?

I have received much more balanced feedback here, and I appreciate it.

>if she spends a year in a group that is a little less challenging 
>(or more challenging) than would be ideal it won't permanently damage her.

Yeah, but its tough to accept.  I have been waiting it out for a while
knowing that her current situation in the infant room is less than ideal.  At 
this point, I'll stop worrying about it until we see what the teachers have
to say at the end of the summer, and then if we really don't agree with it,
move both Erin and the baby sometime during the winter.

Jackie

I'm late - but this is also an issue for me.  My husband
and I chose the daycare we did because we liked how they
treat each kid as an individual.  Kids do not move twice
a year; each child is moved individually.  I believe this
is more appropriate for children in the 0-5 years range,
since their development is so much more individual.

It is harder for the director to schedule; it is a very
objective decision which child is ready for the next
room, not to mention when to pull from the waiting list.
There is always a waiting list.

Not to mention how to project which kid will be ready
when, and will there be a slot open?  I don't know how
they do it, but they do.

For example, my older daughter was ready to move to the
preschool room at about the time my younger daughter was
due.  Also, her best friend was moving away.  When they
proposed she move to preschool, I was concerned that a
new baby, losing her friend, and moving to preschool
might be too much.  We collectively chose to delay her
move for a month, so that she could be in a familiar
place thru all the stress.

Pat

	I guess this is the best place for this...


	My 2 year old daughter recently started daycare with an in-home 	
        provider.  Previously, my mother watched her while I was at work.

	Emily seems to be have adapted very well, and enjoys going to
	Pat's house.  However, when she gets home at night she's very
	hungry and more tired than usual.  Her caregiver says she's
	eating very well and napping well.   She's otherwise acting
	just like her happy healthy self.

	I was just curious if other parents find that their kids are
	more hungry and tired on daycare days.  I'm assuming that it's
	just the increased activity, but want to run a sanity check
	by you folks...

	Thanks,
	Karen

	

    
    
    	I definately notice it with Robert (18 months).  He goes to family
    	daycare 4 days a week and my grandmother watches him 1 day a week.
    	There is a big difference in his behavior on Fridays, then during
    	the rest of the week.  
    
    	He also eats great (more than at home) and naps fine too, but when 
    	we get home, he's usually hungry and more tired than usual.  I just
    	think that it's more the extra play time outside, the other kids,
    	and the general interaction, that he doesn't get when he has the
    	one on one time with my grandmother that makes the difference.  
    
    	He has been going to the same daycare provider since he was four
    	months old and he loves it, just the same way he loves his one on
    	one days with my grandmother.
    
    	FWIW,
    
    	Laurie

    Sounds familiar to me too. Andrew goes to an in-home daycare provider
    as well. His sitter takes care of 2 toddlers, 1 3 yr old and 1 4 yr old, 
    plus her 7 yr old daughter. So it's a pretty busy/crazy place. 
    
    Some days Andrew is very hungry at dinner time and there seems to be no
    explanation because his sitter usually says he ate a good lunch (unless
    he's sick). I've wondered about the hungryness as well and just have to
    sum it up to all that activity. The kids are outside alot and have
    each other to chase around, etc. 
    
    Andrew is generally not too tired when I get him home. He's only tired
    on the days that his sitter says he didn't get a good nap. I feel bad
    when this happens. For example, yesterday Andrew's sitter put him in
    for a nap and a lawnmower (the property owner was having the lawn
    mowed) woke him up. He wouldn't sleep the rest of the day. He was a 
    basket case when we got home. He was so cranky and clingy, I held
    him, rocked him, sang to him, for a long time until he finally snapped
    out of it. I felt so bad for him because I think this sort of thing 
    wouldn't happen at home. But of course it would! I'm just feeling 
    guilty. Don't mind me. :-)
    
    So to sum up, Andrew is sometimes ravenous at super and is sometimes so
    cranky he's a basket case when I get him home. I don't think it would be 
    any better at a daycare center and maybe it would even be this way if I 
    stayed home with him. I don't know. 
    
    Karen
          

    Keep in mind, too, that kids won't be thinking of their stomachs when
    they are busy and otherwise pre-occupied.  We took ours to WDW this
    past spring and found that as long as we were busy running here and
    there they never mentioned food.  And this was very unusual for my
    kids (even though they are older).
    
    -sjd
    

	Thanks, everyone!

	I figured it was probably nothing, but it helps to get a bit
	of confirmation from other parents!

	Karen

This note is being entered for a member of our community who wishes to remain
anonymous.

     Carol duBois, PARENTING co-moderator

*************************************************************

My child is in an infant program at a local daycare center and was bitten by
another child last week at school.  The bite was on the upper arm, left a clear
mark and is now bruised.  I must add however that my child seemed none the 
worse for it.  The provider who witnessed this filled out an accident report
(center policy) indicating the time the bite occured, where, and what
action was taken (i.e, washed with antibacterial soap, ice pack applied, etc).
They do not name the child who did the biting.  The following day my child was
again bitten.  The same process was followed in terms of treatment and written
report.  And yes, you guessed it, the following day my child was bitten again.

The day after the first incident I heard from one of the workers who the 
perpetrator was (although again they are not suppose to say "who") and this
worker also told me on the side that it was the same child both other times as
well and that my child has not been the only victim.  I believe (hope) that the
parents of the child who does the biting are also notified of the incidents.

I appreciate confidentiality but wonder what other parents think of this policy
of not telling.  I like to think that all the parents are responsible people
and certainly wouldn't begrude the child but I'm curious as to if there are
any medical concerns surrounding not knowing who did the biting?  Although
I certainly don't like seeing my child with bite marks (who does?), I also
fully understand kids are kids, some are biters and these things DO happen.
I do not fault the providers that they were not able to stop this before it
happened because I know how quickly it CAN happen.  But now that we have
3 in a row (only one very slight breakage of the skin - resulting from the
first bite) I am not sure if there are hazards we need to be aware of in
terms of bitemarks, etc.  

    I would press very hard that other child be removed from day care
    imemdiately.  Obviously this is behaviour that they cannot regulate
    because of staffing and lack of discipline on the part of the child.  I
    would also press to find out what behaviour modification methods are
    being used on the other child, what the parents of the biter are
    doing/aware of.  Your money is as good as theirs, and your child now
    needs protection while in their care.  I know that if I punched a
    fellow worker here at Digital, I could be immediately terminated.
    
    -sandy
    

How about asking the daycare to increase their staff
to watch the child in question more closely until the
problem is brought under control?  Three times in a row
by the same person seems like a problem.  I would think
the kids being bitten have some feelings about why this
is happening to them.

I think that insisting the biting child be removed from daycare is being 
unreasonable.  I believe that the woman said that her child was in the 
"infant" program at the center.  I don't believe that a child that young can
be intentionally trying to hurt another.  This is not a case of a 4 or 5
year old, if that were the case I might agree with you.  It sounds to me 
as though the center is concerned about the problem as I'm sure the 
parents of the biter are.  Having had this experience myself recently, I can 
tell you that being the parent of the biter, you feel just as badly about the 
whole thing as the parents of the child being biten.  

My daughter, 21months old, has biten my oldest, 5 yrs, a few times.  Usually 
when there wrestling and she gets overly excited.  I think that she just 
doesn't know what to do with her energy.  I KNOW that she is not intentionally
trying to hurt Breanne.  I think that she just doesn't understand that what she
is doing really hurts!  I allways tell her NO in a firm voice and tell her that
she is hurting Breanne.  If she does it again, she goes to the corner.  

A few weeks ago Haley bit another child at daycare.  I felt horrible!  And I
think that finally Haley did to.  She kept pointing to the other child, would
hang her head and say boo-boo and give her a kiss and hug.  It hasn't happened
since.  Our daycare person did keep an extra eye on her though.

Kirsten

I think demanding that the child who bit be removed
from daycare is very unreasonable.  It is true that
if you hit another person at Digital you would be
terminated, however, you are an adult and we
all expect you to use words instead of fists.

It is normal for a child of about 12-24 months to
bite.  It is not pleasant, but it is normal for them
to try.  There are many reasons why a child of this
age will bite, among which are teething, just wanting
to put something in the mouth, normal toddler
aggression, anxiety...

Asking that a child be removed for going thru a
normal behavioral phase is unreasonable.  Ostracizing
a 1 year old child for biting is abusive, in my opinion.

When my kid (Elise, now 3-1/2) was going strong on
biting, there was a woman who went ballistic about
anything that happened to her child.  One day, I went
in to pick up Elise, and the woman was screaming at
one of the teachers.  Someone had bitten her child, and
what she said as I walked in was: "I'm so angry, I'm
not sure what I will do".  It was conveyed very strongly
to me that the child who had bitten may have been in
danger.  And, since my child had been known to bite,
I was very afraid for her.  I left the room (Elise was
outside on the playground, thank god), burst into tears
(I was pregnant), and ran into one of Elise's other
teachers.  I told her what was wrong, and she went and
got the director; I got Elise and left.  The director
called me at home that night to reassure me that things
were ok, and to make sure I truly believed my child was
safe while at daycare.  She said I had to believe that
no teacher at that center would allow *anyone* to
touch my kid in anger or retribution, and in my heart
I knew that was true, or I would never have taken her
back.

This is why I like the confidentiality rule.  That parent
was asked to remove her child eventually, (or so I heard
thru the grapevine).  Later, another parent told me
that once that parent complained about her child being bitten, 
then wheeled around towards Elise and said, "Didn't you, Elise?" 
(The other parent told me she said - "My kid bit someone
today too - how do you know it was Elise?").

The interesting thing was that the director looked up
all the accident reports, and Elise had never been
involved in any incidents with that child.  The woman
had no proof; she just assumed (she probably saw Elise bite
someone at some point). And since confidentiality
works both ways, I didn't know until the director looked
it up whether Elise had done it or not.  I don't want to
think what the parent would have done if she knew for a 
fact which child had bitten her kid.


About taking care of bites - if the skin is not broken,
then I would not worry.  A bruise is a bruise.  When the
skin is broken, there is the risk of infection, of course.
Just make sure they washed the bite well, and do it again
when you get home if you want.  I usually use hydrogen
peroxide.  I took extra care when my kids were bitten on
the face.

Also make sure your child's shots are up-to-date; that
is one of the best protections.  (Note, in NH, where I
live, a child may not attend daycare if her/his shots
are not up-to-date).

I have on occasion called our pediatrician (like the time
my daughter was bitten on the lower lip and blood was
drawn).  The nurse told me to use hydrogen peroxide; she
also checked on my kid's shots.  Other than that, just
treat it like any other cut....

Good luck.  You are being understanding about an unpleasant
but common situation.  Being the parent of a former biter,
I appreciate that...

Pat

I agree biting is a normal part of growing for some kids.  But isn't
three days in a row by the same child something to be concerned
about?  My concern is not just with the child but the ability of
the caretakers to "watch" for other incidents.

Is this "normal" in terms of frequency for kids going through a biting
stage?   I have only a little experience with this and am curious.

Iris

    My daughter was a biter, but only with her brother. She went through it
    at around a year old, and bit him daily for something like a week.  And
    then she went through it again this past year when she was 2 1/2 and at
    a sitter's. But she'd only bite her brother. She did that for about a
    week, and then stopped.
    
    I found dealing with her biting to be difficult. You can watch the
    child like a hawk, but you can't tell they're going to bite til after
    they've done it, so I'm not sure watching more is really the answer.
    With my kids, if the sitter kept them apart more, that seemed to help.
    And time-out right after the offense helped. And it only lasted a very
    short time, thank goodness, and she got the message that it was
    unacceptable. When she was a year old, I could eventually tell when she
    was going to do it because she'd go up to her brother, grab his face
    ever so gently in her hands and look at him like she was going to kiss
    him -- and then just bite a cheek. Once I learned the sign, I could
    deal with it, but it's not always apparent that they're going to do it.
    
    Cathy

    I'd like to get some feel from other noters about reasonable notice
    expectations you have of family daycare providers, relative to
    vacation.
    
    I have a non-DEC friend whose son is in family daycare. The sitter has
    been telling my friend since March that she plans to take a week in
    late August as vacation, but has vacillated about which week it will
    be. My friend and the other parents have been pressing for a date, so
    they can plan alternate care or take the time from work, but the
    daycare provider continues to say she hasn't yet decided.
    
    What do you consider reasonable notice in a family daycare environment?
    I know my sitter typically gives me more than 2 months notice, but I
    believe my contract says she will expect from me, and give me 1 month's
    notice prior to vacations.
    
    Thanks for your help here.
    Lynn
    

    
    
    Hard to say Lynn.  Does your friend have a contract and a good
    relationship with the daycare?
    
    My sitter is telling me the same thing basically however, its only days
    that she takes (5 days total in the summer) and I have been given a
    week worst case scenario.  She is aware though that I have backup
    sitters that require only 24 hours notice.
    
    cj

    When I had my kids in a family daycare [and they were the only ones she
    watched since she had 4 of her own], she told me back in April about
    her planned vacation in July, and was willing to work her vacation
    around any plans I may have had so that we could have conceivably all
    taken the same week off. I think given that it is already July, it is
    not unreasonable for the sitter to provide the actual date she will be
    on vacation now.  If she hasn't done that yet because she hasn't
    decided where she's going or hasn't made her reservations, she may have
    to just pick the week now so her clients can make alternate
    arrangements, and proceed to make her own plans around that week.
    

    My day care provider takes four weeks per year (yes *FOUR*).  She
    publishes her plans on 1/1 each year and usually takes 2 school
    vacations (feb and apr) and two weeks in August.  
    
    I think most people plan at least a month prior to taking a vacation???
    
    

Is the daycare provider expecting to get paid for the vacation? 

I think that your provider's policy and expectation is pretty reasonable and 
customary.  I think anything less than a month is unreasonable, and anything 
less than two months is inconsiderate (and unreasonable if she expects to 
get paid).  I'd consider doing something like getting alternate daycare 
arrangements for both weeks.

Clay

    My son's daycare provider gave us about a months notice. 
    
    She told us as soon as she had her plans set. She's very open with us. 
    And I appreciate this very much. 
    
    IMO, you should be told exactly what week(s) she intends to take off 2-4 
    weeks ahead of time.                                                    
    
    Karen
    

    I can't find this subject anywhere.  A reply or a pointer to the info
    (if it's in here already) would be appreciated.
    
    I have a 3 1/2 year old daughter in daycare at present.  We are
    expecting our 2nd child soon.  By the time we are ready to put both
    into daycare, my oldest daughter will be 4 and the infant will be 6
    months old.  My question is this.  We presently pay $120/wk for the
    1 child.  What is a reasonable rate for the 2 kids, keeping in mind
    that 1 will be an infant?  Let's assume that the normal infant rate is
    $150/wk.  Should we pay $270/wk or is it typical for families with more
    than 1 child in the same daycare to receive a discount?  BTW, this is
    an in-home daycare, not a center.  Also, the oldest will be in school
    part-time (two 1/2-days per week).
    
    Thanks in advance for your suggestions,
    
    Bob

Policies vary.  When we were using daycare and both of our children were at 
the same daycare center, we got a small discount (I think $5 or $10 off the 
normal price).  When they were both at the same in-home daycare, we got no 
discount, but the total amount we paid was less than at the daycare center.  
I think it is probably true that the more of a bargain the normal price is, 
the less the liklihood that you will get a discount.  You should be able to 
pay less for your daughter, since she's there less (do you mean two half days 
or two and a half days?).

Keep the faith.  From a daycare expense standpoint, an infant and a child who 
hasn't started school yet is about as expensive as it gets from a daycare 
standpoint.  Once your daughter starts school, it will get more complicated, 
but less expensive.

Clay

    When considering it from a care-giver's point of view...if you receive a
    considerable discount for more than one child, your second child is
    taking the place of what would have been a full time payer from another
    family.  This seriously limits the income of the care giver.  My sister
    is now going into daycare in the Rochester NY area and is finding it
    hard because parents want "group discounts", part-time days, etc. which
    limits the amount of children she can bring in at a full-time rate.
    
    However, as a parent, not a day care "giver", I would certainly
    appreciate the discount.  I believe "centers" can better afford this
    routine than in-home care.
    
    -sandy
    

	My provider wanted $3.00 an hour for part-time care, but 
	gave me a discount on my second child, such that I pay
	$5.00 an hour for two kids.  This is by far the best rate
	and most generous discount I found for my kids (and just
	happened to be with the best provider I found in my search).

	My kids are 2.25 and 6 months.  Age was not a consideration
	in the rate.

	Most places I called wanted roughly $140 for infants, $120
	for toddlers.  Some gave a discount of $10 for two kids.

	My recommendation is to get a list of providers in your area,
	and do some price comparisons.  I would think if you have
	been using your provider for some period of time, she would
	want to keep you as a client and would be willing to discuss
	payment.

	Karen

    
    
    I just moved and saw/talked to more than my share of both daycare
    centers and in-home care providers.  I have 2 sons, 3 years, &
    7 months.  From the most expensive to the least expensive all gave some
    type of discount.  Daycare centers seemed to give the a reduction of
    the 2nd or least expensive child averaging around 10-15% off that
    child's fees with the 1st or higher priced child at a full rate.
    Home providers tended to give a flat per week dollar reduction on the
    total or a reduced hourly rate for the 2 boys; i.e. if the full rate
    was 250.00, they may cut it to 225.00, or hourly, I had rates quoted to
    me that were $6.00 dropped to $5.00 and in another instance there was a
    $5.00 per hour (for 2 children) dropped to $4.50.
    
    For reference, I live on the Auburn, Worcester, Milbury MA lines so my
    search covered all three towns.  My search was for 2 part-time slots
    changing into 2 full-time slots once my husband finds new employement
    (He's been TFSO'd this summer.)  I did better than most; I had a choice
    of 2 providers that I was happy with (lots I wasn't happy with) and who
    were reasonably priced and who were willing to take the part-time to
    full-time arrangement.

    Cost of daycare shouldn't be the first thing we look at when choosing
    daycare for our children, but unfortunately it usually is.  Good,
    quality care is so hard to find, and I don't believe there is such a
    thing as "reasonable" care - or its few and far between.
    
    My daughter goes to St. Agnes in Worcester and its a great quality
    center, she loves it there - we are paying $150/week for her.  And
    before that, we were bringing Alyssa to someone that watched her in her
    own home and that was $3/hr which was just as expensive, as she was
    paid "under the table".  The good thing about that arrangement was she
    only got paid for the time Alyssa was actually there, and the sitter
    did watch Alyssa even if she was sick.
    
    I don't know how anyone can afford 2+ kids in daycare.  As it is,
    Alyssa's is just about 1/2 of my take-home pay.  And I certainly
    don't know how single parents could afford even 1 child.  
    
    Maybe with the Healthcare and Welfare system, daycare should be looked 
    into - of course, when the government gets ahold of things, they seem to 
    end of in a worse situation.
    
    
    

    
    THe people I've talked to or had for daycare (both centers and inhome),
    have offered a 10% discount off of the price of the second child, and
    rounded it from there.
    
    i.e. Summer camp is $90.00/wk.  Two kids, it was 90.00 +81.00, so it
    ended up being $170./wk.  This is for school-age kids, 8hrs/day.  Over
    8hrs day was an additional $1.00/hr/child, no discount.  And they went
    EVERYWHERE!!! (gee, I never took a Boston Harbor Cruise! (-:)
    
    After school program is $45.00/wk, so it's $45.00 for #1, and $41.00
    for #2, but they charge $85.00/wk/2 kids.
    
    In-home care, when they were younger, I paid $110./wk for one, and
    $100.00 for the other.  Kind of weird, but that's the way it worked.
    
    This is in Nashua, NH
    
    

    I'd like some feedback on the following situation.  My two children
    are at an in home daycare in my home town.  My son (2.5) has been there
    a little over a year.  My daughter (4.5 months) has been there since
    she was 10 weeks old.  My provider has been extremely conscientious
    with the baby, almost to a fault.  We seem to have endless discussions
    when I drop off the kids in the morning about how much the baby ate,
    spitup, slept, etc.  I'm very relaxed with my kids, if the baby naps
    2 hrs one day then 1/2 hr the next day I don't think twice about it.  
    My provider on the other seems to think this is a problem and we have
    long discussion about what should be done.  Anyways thats all
    background.  Now to the problem.  
    
    Last Friday my provider called me at work in the am to tell me the baby
    had regurgitated her whole bottle.  Since this happens occasionally
    when the baby eats too fast and their were no other symptoms I told
    her I didn't think it was a problem.  She called again at noon time 
    to tell me the same thing happened with her 2nd bottle.  Again no other
    symptoms, the baby seemed just fine.  I told her again that I didn't
    think it was a problem.  Let me interject her that this is a big (95%
    weight wise) healthy happy baby.  Missing a few feedings is not cause
    for concern on my part.
    
    The baby didn't keep her third bottle down that afternoon and
    apparently gagged a little when she was spitting it all back up.
    My provider tried to reach me at work but I wasn't in my office.
    She waited 20 minutes then called our house and reached my husband.
    He came over right away and picked up the kids.  The concern I have
    is that my provider was in a complete panic when my husband went over
    there.  She actually told me this morning that she was on the verge
    of calling 911 when the baby was gagging.  I think this women
    completely overreacted.  The baby had no other symptoms and certainly
    wasn't going to wilt away from missing a few bottles.  Also when I 
    walked in this morning she told me she wasn't happy with the way things
    were handled Friday because we weren't immediately reachable.  Note
    it was 20 minutes from the time she spit up the last bottle till the
    time she spoke to my husband.  I was in shock when she said that.  I
    went over prepared to have a little talk with her about over reacting
    and I get shes not happy with the way things were handled !  
    
    By the way by the time I got home at 5:00 Friday the baby was fine.  I
    nursed her and gave her some cereal which she kept down fine.
    
    So, am I crazy or is she ?
    
    Denise
     

    
    I don't think that the sitter overreacted.  She is responsible
    for the children and when a small baby is vomiting that frequently
    it is cause for alarm.  She could be in a lot of trouble if she
    didn't get one of you over there quickly to take control of the
    situation.  However it seems that you and the sitter are not
    getting along and that is a problem in itself.  I had similar
    misunderstandings with a sitter and it never righted itself and
    in the end we had to pull our daughter out with very short notice
    because our relationship broke down so badly.  Its a lot better to
    find a sitter that you feel comfortable with and spare yourself the
    agony of these painful disagreements.
    
    ..................beth

    
    re. 202
    
    If I were a daycare provider, I would have done the same thing.
    Especially with a small baby, it is not easy to determine whether
    the vomiting is ok. I would not subject the provider to such
    worries if she is not comfortable with the situation. I can see
    your point of view, knowing that the baby is basically healthy,
    but I can also understand the responsiblity this provider has to
    shoulder. 
    
    
    Eva

    RE: 202 - I would have done the same thing.  I would be concerned 
    about dehydration in the baby if the child couldn't keep down anything.
    It seems as though the daycare provider has the best interests of 
    the child at heart.  Dehydration of a baby is quite serious and even if
    your baby is basically healthy, the child still needs to be able to
    take fluids.  If it was my baby, I would have left work to check on the
    child.  (Actually - this did happen once and I did leave early to
    make sure the baby was ok - I called the pedi and she thought that this
    type of vomiting was serious enough to warrant watching the baby closely
    and administering pedialyte so the baby wouldn't get dehydrated.)
    
    Perhaps you should discuss with your provider several "what if" types 
    of scenerios just so you can understand each other's perspectives.
    You are the parent, so you have the final say of course, however if
    your provider ever thought your baby needed immediate medical
    attention and couldn't reach you, I'd expect her to do whats best for
    the baby.
    
    Nancy

    Well ... I guess I am the one thats crazy.
    
    Let me clarify a few things.  The first 2 times the provider called she
    told me she just wanted to let me know what was going one.  She didn't 
    think I needed to come get the baby.
    
    The 3rd call (she left me a voice mail message) just said that it
    looked like the baby really was sick, please give her a call back.
    
    When my husband picked up the kids he told her the reason I didn't call
    her back was that I was at the doctors.  She got very upset that she
    didn't know I was going to the doctors ( although I had told her the
    day before, she forgot).  That fact that I was at the doctors was
    really irrelevant because if I had been at work I would have been in a
    meeting all afternoon.  My husband is reachable any time through a
    beeper.  I think she was out of line to criticize me for not being
    instantly available when she called.  
    
    Also, in talking to her today she made things sound a lot worse than
    when I spoke to her on Friday.  She never said the baby was vomiting in
    the conversations we had, just things like she didn't keep her bottle
    down.  On occasion when my daughter sucks down a bottle in record time
    it comes right back up (it never even reaches her stomach).  This I
    consider different than vomiting. 
    
    I think .203 has it right.  We have some personality conflicts that
    I've been trying very hard to supress, but it doesn't seem to be
    working out.
    
    

    *I* don't think you're crazy.  While I don't make a distinction between
    vomiting, spitting up, regurgitating, barfing or hurling :-) it seems
    that you made it plain to the provider that you have a baby who
    occasionally *does* that, and you consider it normal FOR THAT BABY.  (I
    had a "barf-baby" myself, but my consolation was that she hardly ever
    cried, and no colic!)  And you have a beepered hubby, who did show up
    when the provider expressed anxiety.
    
    If you stay with this provider, obviously some long talks are in order
    so that she can understand your comfort zone on what constitutes
    "vomiting" and how much of it/what frequency would qualify as being 
    excessive.  Maybe you could get your pedi in on this (a letter
    explaining that this "well baby" chronically spits up).
    
    Or maybe the provider really is a "Chicken Little", flying into a panic
    over nothing (and possibly, in the confusion, ignoring/neglecting the
    other kids).  Probably not, but I can see where she comes across that
    way.
    
    Good luck,
    Leslie

    re .207
    Thanks !
    
    I just had a long talk with my provider.  It seems that while she
    was telling me everything was OK, she was really secretly hoping
    I would come pick up the baby.  I guess she was afraid to just say
    come pick up this baby because she didn't know if the situation really
    warrented it.  Anyways, I told her if she felt I needed to come get the
    baby she had to tell me that !  She really minimized things on the
    phone Friday, then was upset when I didn't guess her real intent.  
    
    Anyways, I think the talk really helped and I feel better now.  I like
    the idea about a note from the doctor.  I also told her if there ever
    was a situation where she couldn't reach us (unlikely), she could call 
    the kids doctor (thats why we filled out all those forms).  The nurses 
    in my doctors office are great and could have reassured here or let her 
    know if there was a real problem.
          
    Denise

    
    One of the more important aspects of picking a good sitter, I think, is
    in finding someone with a similar parenting style.  Someone who'll
    panic when you panic, who'll brush it off when you'd brush it off, and
    who's intelligent and confidentenough to know when to tell you they
    DON'T know how to deal with it.  Different things are perceived
    differently by others.
    
    I had a sitter who would not let ANY of the kids go out to play unless
    they were ALL out to play.  Even in her fenced in "secluded" back yard. 
    I thought this was a bit overprotective, especially since my kids were
    4 and 7 at the time.  But I thought it was better to be safe than
    sorry, so never said anything.  The very same women then took my baby
    (weeks old), to church with her, so she could go to the Women's Bible
    Study, and left the baby with the church nursery.  I knew NOTHING about
    this until I tried to bring him late one day and she was at church.  To
    her, the church nursery was perfectly safe.  To me, there were complete
    strangers caring for my baby, and THAT'S not what I hired her to do.
    
    Most other things we were in agreement with, and for years (before I
    had the baby), we never had a problem.  However it got so that our
    styles for parenting an INFANT were *SO* different from each other,
    then I ended up pulling the baby out, and haven't really regretted it
    since.  You have to be comfortable with how the other person is going
    to reach their decisions, and trust that they'd be close to what YOU'D
    decide.
    
    Otherwise, you'll spend the whole day wondering what terrible thing is
    happening to your child, or what non-traumatic thing you'll be called
    for next.  On the sitter's side, it must be tough for them to guess
    what a parent is going to flip out about and what they'll brush off...
    
    I'd have been upset if I walked in Friday and heard "Well, she's been
    puking all day, but she seems okay".  It wouldn't phase me though if I
    walked in and heard "Well, he fell down and cut his head open, but it
    stopped bleeding, and he's okay".  (my kids don't puke unless they're
    REALLY sick.  They do tend to bleed/cut themselves frequently)
    Different strokes for different folks ....

    I too have a pretty spitty baby.  She's settled a bit now, at
    5 months, but even this morning threw her whole bottle. (7 ounces
    all over Mommy's bed...oh yeah!)
    
    When she started with her provider I made it clear that she is
    a spitty baby (not gagging and vomitting, though) and to be sure
    to watch her in bed because she was frequently choking if put to
    bed within an hour of the bottle.
    
    This all worked out fine....funny thing was... just a couple of
    weeks ago my daughter was a little warm when I dropped her off
    but registered no temperature.   I did mention to the provider
    she feels warm, please keep an eye on her today.   Around 1:00
    the provider felt she was even warmer and took her temperature.
    She registered 101.  The provider did not call me but told me
    about it when I picked Angeline up.   I was a bit put off by
    that because by then it was too late to get her to the doctors.
    She went up to 103.9 that night and was one sick baby the next
    day.  Medication the day before would have made an enormous
    difference in at least my daughter's comfort.
    
    We talked that situation out right away.  I made it clear I
    wanted to know any temp over 100, and let me be the judge.  She,
    the provider, did feel real bad (not that that was the result I
    was looking for) and we got right past it.  I guess her pedi says
    don't call unless her kids are at 101 so she just applied it to
    mine.  
    
    It is real hard to let go of concerns and put complete trust in
    your provider.  I know mine has had to deal with my anxieties and
    second thoughts when my daughter first started there.  I think she's
    done a good job of dealing with both of us so far.  You just hit
    snags here and there.  Like any type of relationship, you have to
    find the middle ground.
     
    					cj *->

    I wanted to solicit some opinions about the cost of daycare.  In
    particular, I was alittle bit surprised that my daughter's daycare cost
    will only decrease by $5/week when she is moved up to Toddler Room.  She
    moves up on Monday.  I thought it would be more than that.
    
    Any opinions?

    
    re .211
    
    The major decrease happens when the kids hit pre-school (when they're
    2 yr 9 mos on and toilet trained). That's when the teacher can take
    on many more kids.
    
    
    Eva

    At our daycare center (Chelmsford, Ma), the cost goes from $204 for a
    full-time infant to $190 for a full-time toddler (up to 2years 9
    months).  The ratios in Mass go from 3.5:1 to 4.5 to
    1.  Our daycare center provides 2 snacks and a cooked lunch per day.
    The older infants do eat at least some of the school food.
    
    The cost goes down considerably for the 3's but the ratios change
    considerably too (10:1 although our center tries for 7 or 8:1).  I
    believe it cost about $140.
    
    Carol

    At our daycare (Salem, NH) ... the cost is $145 full-time up to
    2 years old.  It goes down to $130 from 2 yrs - 3yrs, then it
    goes down to $110 at age 3...it could be less - I'm not
    sure about the over 3 (pre-school) price. My son will be 2 in
    April and I'm looking forward to the $15/wk decrease.
    
    These prices include diapers, wipes, all snacks, cold breakfast 
    (occasionally they get some pancakes or english muffins, but 
    usually just cereal), and a hot lunch.  
                                                          
    In comparing with a lot of other centers in the area, this price
    was reasonable considering they provide diapers and wipes
    and ALL the food.  My son eats there every morning and loves 
    eating breakfast with the other children.  It takes me about 2.5 wks
    to use up 1 bag of diapers... if I had to provide them, I would
    probably go thru 1 pack a week (pack of 26). 
    
    You have to consider where you are saving and where you are spending
    when you look at what's included in daycare expenses. I also enjoy
    the convenience.  I don't have to pack anything in his bag except for
    a blanket that stays there for the week, and a change of clothing 
    in case of accidents.
    
    julie
    

Just to toss in some prices from here in the south.  We have Samantha in the 3's
class and Anthony attends after school.  Total cost per week is $114.  I think
the cost for just Samantha is around $85/wk.

When we had both in full time and Samantha was in the toddlers room, it was
around $155/wk for both.

This is in a private day care center that handles from 8 weeks to 12 years, with
field trips for the 4 yr olds and up.

I recall paying around $200/wk for just Anthony when we were up in Nashua and he
was an infant...

Dave

    In Nashua, I pay $120.00/wk for infant - 2 yrs.  It's currently
    $80.00/wk for 3 up (don't know about 2-3 yr olds), but they're changing
    rates so that everyone will be $100.00/wk.
    
    Includes everything except diapers/wipes.
    
    -Patty

    This is interesting... When my son was potty trained and moved up to
    the "Pre-school" class from the Toddler class, there was NO decrease in
    weekly rate. I was told that "Daycare centers can not base rates on
    potty trained or not, as that was discrimination. Some kids have
    biological reasons that they can't be potty trainined at 2 years 9
    months."
    
    I guess I have to print out some of these replies and see what our
    daycare says now :-) 

    Do most daycares provide formula and diapers as part of their fees?
    
    I've noticed fees ranging from $120 to $190 for infants, however, I am
    wondering if this includes diapers, formula, etc???
    
    
    
    

    
    The rate that I paid for Alyssa when she was in the infant room did not
    include anything.  When Alyssa started on the food program, the rate
    did not go up.  So unfortunately, infants only eating forumla (which
    you provide) are paying the same rate as the infants on the food program.
    
    I wish they did provide extras.
    
    

	
	I did not come across any daycares (center or home) that
	provided diapers.

	All of the home based daycares provided formula or food,
	whichever the baby was taking.

	I don't think any of the "centers" did, but I kind of new
	I wasn't interested in them, so I didn't pay much attention.

	Karen

    
    
    The daycare center I bring my son to is $145/wk (until age 2, when
    it goes down to $130/wk) includes:
    
    	- breakfast (usually cereal, but sometimes pancakes)
    	- morning and afternoon snacks
    	- lunch 
    	- diapers/wipes
    	- milk and juice
    
    Not sure about formula for babies since my son didn't start daycare 
    until he was one.  I think you would have to provide formula since 
    everyone uses different kinds.   
    
    This daycare is part of a Christian School (thru grade 8 I believe),
    so they have their own cafeteria for preparing meals, and are state-
    subsidized.
    
    The price drops again when the child turns 3 ($110/wk).  This is
    when they begin the pre-school curriculum.
    
    I'm very happy with them, and my son seems real happy too.
    
    Julie
                                              

    Around Nashua, I've never found anyone that included diapers, wipes or
    formula.  A few have included baby food (jar-stuff), and some have NOT
    included any foods at all - regardless of age.
    
    Probably safer to think it's NOT included unless they tell you
    otherwise!
    
    

    At the center I take Connor (I live in Perry, Georgia) the cost is
    $76/week for an infant.  You supply diapers, wipes, formula and baby
    food.  When the child eats table food they will feed him breakfast,
    lunch and a snack.  I think the cost goes down $2 a week when he turns
    2.  
    
    I would rather supply diapers and food.  Connor had a bad
    reaction to Pampers and there are sooo many types of formula I wanted
    him to have what the Pediatrician recommended.
    
    Karen

    
    Personally, I think a center should provide food.  I don't necessarily
    agree on formula... there are too many different types of formula
    and it is not fair to expect that the center will keep the right
    brand and type in stock for your baby.  
    
    Once the child is on food, the daycare should provide it if they are
    licenced since the govt subsidizes this.  My daycare gets about $600
    from the government each month to feed 6 children lunch, breakfast, and
    1 snack, 5 days a week.  She actually profits by this!  This is
    the state of Massachusetts I'm talking here.  I like not having to 
    make lunch for Lauren in the morning and I know she gets a good
    lunch every day, usually hot.  Plus, you don't have children wanting
    what the other kids brought instead of what they brought.
    
    re: $76/week for an infant!  I'm paying double that in MA!  I've got
    to move!

    re .223
    
    In Georgia, how many infants can the care provider legally watch?
    That has a lot to do with the price.  Also Georgia has got to have
    a lower cost of living then the Boston area.
    
    Carol

    
    re .224
    
    NH is the same way, day care providers are subsidized by USDA.
    
    I, as a parent, would like to have control over what my kid
    eat, especially when my kid was little, ie. when she didn't
    know what was healthy and what wasn't. I did not and still do
    not trust the govt/daycare/school to provide my daughter with
    healthy meals. MA schools still consider ketchup as a vegetable! 
    
    
    
    Eva
    

    I think at a center there is a 6:1 ratio of infants.  The center is
    also getting some type of money from the government for food.  They
    post a menu weekly of what the kids are having.  Also, if they change
    any of the meals they will make notations.  
    
    The cost of living here is pretty low.  I have a friend in Atlanta (100
    miles north) and she pays $96/week for an infant.   

6:1 seems like a lot of babies for one person to look after.  Are you sure
that this is the case.  In Mass. the ratio is 7:2.  Family based providers
 can take a max of 2 babies (under 18 mths, I think) and 6 kids total.
Then again, that could explain the price.

Lori

    
    I believe where Alyssa goes to daycare, the infant/teacher ratio is
    3:1.  I'm not sure what it is now that she is in the toddler room.
    
    

    I'm advertising for someone to come to my home just on Mondays to care
    for my 19-month-old. What kind of hourly rate should I expect to pay?
    And what about holidays--should the person get paid although she's only
    working one day a week? 
    
    Thanks,
    Andrea

Call the childcare resource & referral folks and ask them what the 
going rate is in your area.  The last time I called them it was 
$5-7/hour for southern NH.  Those who receive the higher end
typically do housework in addition to childcare.

I have someone who works in my home 50 hours/week, so my
situation is a rather different from yours.  But here
are my thoughts on holiday pay:  when I initially wrote up
a nanny contract, I was going to pay for 1 week vacation,
though I expected to take up to 2 additional weeks vacation
per year.  Any other vacation time would be unpaid.  The
contract gave her all of Digital's holidays with pay.  I also chose 
to offer 5 paid sick days a year.  Once we actually hired
someone for the position, my attitude changed and I decided to
pay her just like I get paid.

What you might want to do is write up a contract stating
what you'd like.  Give it to your applicants and be open
to negotiating if they express concern about holiday pay.

Good luck!

- Deb B.   

    
    re .230
    
    I cannot speak from experience, but I would offer the person
    at least minimum wage or close to what fast food restaurants
    pay, if the person has to provide his/her own transportation. 
    I tend to view taking care of a little person as having more 
    responsiblity than taking orders at a drive thru ;-) If you
    are hiring a student, then I would not worry about the holidays.
    Otherwise, you may go with the flow , ie. find the perfect
    person first and see what he/she wants. 50% pay on holidays
    sounds decent. 
    
    
    Eva
    

    I'd like to hear your opinions and experience with younger full-time
    sitters.
    
    We have been looking for a summer sitter, thinking of 18-year-olds,
    since we've had great experiences with young women of that age taking
    care of 2 girls, now age 7 and 9.  A 15-year-old High School freshman
    has applied for the job.  We will be interviewing (each other) on
    Saturday.
    
    I work at home about 3 days a week.  The other days, I'm out of this
    town, but we do have neighbors around most of the time, including other
    mothers.
    
    Assuming that she seems responsible, and that her references check out,
    is 15 too young for this job?
    
    She has only worked 20 hours/week before this and I am concerned about
    her burning out early, but the job is only for about 6 weeks.
    
    We posted the salary at $170, which now feels high for a 15-year-old,
    but the job is the same as if she was 18...  And I guess some of it
    will go to her parents, who will be DRIVING her the 20-min-each-way
    trips back and forth to my house.
    
    At first the no-car, no-transporting-the-kids aspect seemed like a
    drawback, but my husband thinks it's a plus and I'm coming around to
    that way of thinking.
    
    I would appreciate hearing from others.
        
    Thanks!
    
    Jane

    I did this type of work when I was 15, and even younger!  I think it
    depends on the individual.  Some 15 year olds can handle things well
    and some 18 year olds cannot.  I was a mature kid, who had 4 younger
    siblings that I took care of while my Mom worked.  My sister and I
    shared a babysitting job; she worked one week at home while I worked at
    the job, and the next week we switched positions.
    
    Generally, I use sitters who are older, but I feel uncomfortable with
    having too young of a sitter with a baby.  Once both my kids can talk,
    I'll probably widen my range of ages for babysitters.  
    
    Plus, with you working from home 3 days a week, that will let you know
    if the sitter can handle things or not.  
    
    Good luck making this decision!
    
    judy

    I agree with .234 it depends upon her maturity level.  I was a nanny
    for the summer at the age of 12. It was for one girl age 5 and her 
    mom worked at home 3 days a week and I was with her alone 2 days. 
    (My mom lived across the street :') .....
    
    Your husband has a good point about the car and if there was truly an
    emergency she should call 911.  Another good thing about "some" 15 year
    old girls are that they don't have a boyfriend dropping by!
    
    good luck :')

    Whether the sitter has a car or not, if there's ever an emergency, they
    should call 911, period.  You cannot adminster any type of first aid
    when you're driving, and asking a teen (inexperienced driver!) to drive
    safely with a sick/injured passenger could be dangerous.
    
    As for the rate ... the work's the same, the pay should be the same.  
    
    As for the ability .... 6 weeks is a long time when you're 15.  I'd try
    to poke around and find out what she'd be "missing" from her summer,
    and/or why she's doing this.  From that answer you may be able to get a
    better idea of how well she'd stick to it.
    
    An advantage with a younger sitter, is that she'd be more likely to
    enjoy playing WITH the kids, as opposed to an older one may prefer to
    watch TV and just sort of "keep an eye on" the kids.
    
    If all else checked out, and your kids are able to speak (ie tell you
    what goes on when you're not around), I wouldn't hesitate to hire her.
    
    -Patty

We just started a sitter (or Nanny or whatever you want to call her) about 3 
weeks ago.  She is "young" (21) and we had reservations only because we have 
3 kids ranging in age from 4 months to 7 years.  We went ahead and hired her 
knowing that I would be at the house for the first few weeks (I am a 
telecommuter).

It has worked out just wonderful.  She is VERY responsible, patient, loving 
yet also strict (as we instructed her).  She does things as I would like them 
done and I think that might have been a problem with an older person who 
already had their own way of doing things.  She does have a car and we 
insisted on this mainly so the kids would not have to hang around the house 
all the time.  It gives me a "quiet" break and makes their summer a lot more 
interesting.  She takes them to the library, the mall, the swimming pool, 
etc.  The older 2 love it and the baby just kind of does what he always does 
and "goes with the flow".  He's very used to going and doing all sorts of 
things as I am constantly on the go on weekends and evenings.  If he needs 
some "down time" she seems to know that and they all stay here so he can 
sleep.  She's very good and we're very pleased.  

We pay her $5.50/hour and give her extra money for gas and "incidentals" for 
the kid's activities (we have a set amount for incidentals each week and they 
decide how/what they want to spend it on for that week).  Everybody seems to 
be happy!  A car also comes in very handy because she takes them and picks 
them up from all their activities (dance/gymnastics/music/summer school) 
during the summer.  A car has been an absolute must for our situation.

    My daughter is almost seven months old and she started at a daycare
    center last month.  She had a tough time making the adjustment from
    being home with me for six months but she is getting there.
    
    I have been noticing things at this center that concerns me and I was
    wondering if this is common at other places or not.
    
    There are three permanent teachers in the infant room but others come in 
    to cover break times, lunch, drop-off and pick-up times.  In general I 
    feel concerned about the number of teachers who are in and out of the 
    infant room.  Also with the summer months and teachers taking vacation, 
    different people have been helping out temporarily.  The director's 
    mother was helping out last week and this week the mother of one of 
    the teachers is there.    
    
    This morning I saw something that got me really thinking.  An older 
    child (15 months old) is in the process of moving to the toddler room.
    For the past three weeks she has been spending most of her days in
    the toddler room and although she had a little bit of an adjustment
    but she is doing well.  Apparently they are short on toddler teachers
    for today and next week so they are putting her back in the infant
    room for this period of time.  She was not happy this morning, she
    did not want to let go of her daddy and she did not want to be in the
    infant room at all.  I'm not her mother but it got me upset and made me
    wonder if my daughter has to go through this.  The way I see it is that
    she has been making an adjustment to the toddler room and its not fair
    to put her back in the infant room just because they are under staffed
    this week.  Makes me wonder if we have made the right decision about
    putting our daughter in a center and whether she would be better off 
    at an in-home daycare where there is one adult caregiver all the time.
    
    Is this typical for daycare centers.  What do other parents think about
    this situation?
    
    Thanks,
    Susan
    
    
    

    I agree that it is unreasonable to put a child back, once you have
    asked them to adjust forward.  
    
    That said, I used family day care for my daughter and looked for
    daycare 4 times in 9 months!  (My initial search, a few months later
    when the caregiver was stressed out and asked me to find new care and
    then changed her mind, a few months later when she changed it back, and
    then when we finally moved to a center because the new provider wasn't
    working out.)  So, I'm not sure stability is certain wherever you go.
    
    judy

    How big is the daycare?
    
    I was on educational LOA January-June and needed to find a daycare
    closer to my school.  We enrolled Lauren in a good school that had 60
    kids.  The situation sounded similar.  We had a hard time getting to
    know teachers.  Lauren started calling some of the "break" teachers
    just "teacher".  I think she was confused too.  My husband and I
    decided the logistics of making a large daycare work and the number of
    teachers needed made it hard to "work" any other way.  We sized
    ourselves up as "small daycare" people.
    
    We put her back in her old school.  It's twenty kids, four teachers
    with some "break" help.  We found this situation works better for us.
    
    Good luck...

    My two kids (almost 4 and 16 months) go to a large daycare center.  Our
    infant room has room for 10 kids although there may not be 10 there all
    the time.  There are 3 full time teachers and 1 part-time teacher who
    works 12-6 to cover the others lunches and the end of the day when the
    other teachers start leaving.  The only times you would get a
    non-infant teacher in there are if one of the infant treachers is sick
    or on vacation - and they tend to use the same backup teachers so the
    teachers will know the kids and vice versa.
    
    I would be very upset and would complain very loudly if my son was
    sent back to the infant room after transitioning to the toddler room.
    
    Not all large centers are run the way you describe so don't give up on
    them all.
    
    Carol

    My daughter's school does some shuffling to accommodate the laws on the
    teacher-child ratios, but my almost three year old is always "on loan"
    to the 3 or 4-5 year old groups, but never back to the 1 year old
    rooms.  I think there must be something in the air today, because my
    daughter and several of her classmates were clinging and crying and
    drop off time today.
    
    There is one little boy in my daughters class (new from the infant room
    to the toddler room), who always runs up to me and says "mommy" and
    hugs me.  I was surprised the first time this happened, and my daughter
    was a bit upset with his idea.  I smiled and said "Hi" to this little
    guy and he rambled on to me about something I couldn't understand.  I
    told my daughter to get her things and this littel boy came back with
    her and his things and got ready to go home with me! The teacher said
    he had been doing this with all the parents and he wanted to go home so
    badly, he would have left with anyone who would have taken him.  I felt
    so sad for him and mentionied to the teacher that they should make sure
    the parents knew.  Today, this little boy is cheerful and just waves
    when I come in.  He is well adjusted to the toddler room after a few
    weeks.  He had a tough time adjusting up, but I bet it is a lot easier
    than adjusting down in age after the child has been exposed to it.
    
    I think your situation is a normal one, but if you have concerns about
    ANYTHING your see at your daycare, you have a right to voice your
    opinion. 

    Not to go off the subject, but yes, I guess I am.  I just wanted
    to post a quick note here to update my status.
    
    Today Angeline starts at a new daycare.  This woman has a 19mth old
    son, and brings in a six month old, three days a week for three hours.
    BIG difference from her former environment.
    
    Thanks to you all for the advice and notes, on and off line, that
    helped me through this decision.  I feel more relaxed already today.
    I know she'll be safer than she was, but you know, I bet she does
    miss all the other kids for a while.
    
    Added note, her former provider already replaced her before I had
    even moved her.  With a three year old girl and another part-timer.
    The part timer started school last week, but the last week Angeline
    was still there, this older one came full time.  So for Angeline's
    last week, there were eight children there full-time beside the helper
    coming a couple of hours a day with another four children!   And so
    it goes....
                                        Thanks again
    						cj *->

>>    There is one little boy in my daughters class (new from the infant room
>>    to the toddler room), who always runs up to me and says "mommy" and
>>    hugs me.  I was surprised the first time this happened, and my daughter
>>    was a bit upset with his idea.  I smiled and said "Hi" to this little
>>    guy and he rambled on to me about something I couldn't understand.  I
>>    told my daughter to get her things and this littel boy came back with
>>    her and his things and got ready to go home with me! The teacher said
>>    he had been doing this with all the parents and he wanted to go home so
>>    badly, he would have left with anyone who would have taken him.

At the daycare my son just "graduated" from, this happened on occasion.  The
care was top-notch, it just seemed the kids felt rather communal about their
parents (one kid's daddy, every kid's daddy).  I wouldn't attach too much
significance to it.

						Brian

    Yup - was Jason was at WTP, all the kids did this - they all called me
    Mom, simply because that was the only name they knew for me.  As they
    got older I graduated to "Jason's Mom!", but in the beginning, it was
    just Mom!  To ALL of them.  
    
    

    Susan, 
    
    As in .241, my child is in a large daycare center.  They have 8 kids in
    the infant room and 3 teachers in the room.  They arrange the schedules
    such that 1 comes early (7:00) and leaves just after lunch, one works
    mainstream hours (8-5), and one comes and lunch and works to closing. 
    In the case where someone is sick or on vacation, you see a sub. 
    Again, they try to use the same ones in the infant and young toddler
    room as much as possible.  In the case where someone has to take a
    break, answer a phone call, etc., either the director or assistant
    director go into the room for a few minutes.  
    
    I, too, would complain loudly if there were new faces in with my kids
    (one 16 mos. and one 4 1/2) every day.  I think the kids need
    consistency of teachers since this brings about consistency in rules
    and the words used to enforce them (yes, even in the infant room) and
    allows for the strong bond and trust that need to develop between the
    child and teacher.  
    
    If I were you, I'd be talking to the director about my concerns and, if
    that seemed to get no attention, look for something else.
    
    Irene

    I am looking at daycare on a part-time basis for my daughter.  I have
    found a center that I really like but there was one thing that bothered
    me.  I looked at the center Monday and mentioned my concern to the
    director in a phone conversation today.
    
    My daughter is 19 months old so she would be in the older toddler area.
    This play area is enclosed with a door the height of a gate that leads
    into the main area.  When I was looking at the center, as I went back
    into the area, the gate was not latched.  The center is in a recreation
    building where many people come and go and the door to the center is a
    glass door.  My concern was ...What if my child got out of the area via
    the gate and was near the glass door and someone from outside in the
    hall opened the door and took my child????  Maybe it sounds paranoid,
    but with two adults to eight toddlers, if one toddler is being changed,
    that means that one adult is watching seven toddlers.it is probably 10
    - 12 feet from the gate to the entrance of the center.
    I mentioned this concern to the director over the phone and it was hard
    for me to read her reaction.  Preschool kids aren't in a confined area
    so that can walk near the glass door which surprised me.
    She stated also that the child is always watched, even when one of the
    adults is busy.
    This daycare center seems perfect in every other way and I know my
    child would flourish with the nuturing they provide.  No other center I
    have looked at is anywhere near as good as this one, in my opinion,
    however this one thing bothers me.
    
    I spoke to a couple of parents whose names I was given as references
    and they stated that the kids are watched so closely and given so much
    attention that it was doubtful that an incident such as that would
    occur.
    
    Am I being paranoid about this??  I suppose most of the other centers
    could have similar issues, however where this one is in a building that
    houses other business, there is a considerable amount of traffic in the
    hall.
    
    Comments??
    
    Thanks!
    
    Nancy                                                 

   Warning - this is my opinion...
   
   You are the parent - you are the primary protector of your child.  Go
   with you gut feeling - that is most important.  Even if the
   recommendations are correct and nothing would ever happen, if your gut
   tells you that you should be worried, you will never be at peace with
   this place.  You need the piece of mind that goes with trusting that
   your child is safe and well cared for - if this place does not give
   you that piece of mind, then maybe you should keep looking...
   
   imho,
   
   - Tom

    Is the center open for suggestions?  If you like the center and want to
    eliminate the fears that you see, suggest a latch on the gate or a door
    alarm, so that if the door is opened an alarm goes off before the child
    can get too far away.  They should want to improve the safety for the
    children.
    
    Good Luck!

    I started my daughter in daycare last week.  She had been watched by my
    parents during the day while I was at work and it was reaching the
    point where they couldn't keep up with her.  She will go to daycare two
    days a week.  She has some very serious food allergies so my biggest
    concern is the handling of (other children's) food during snack time
    and luchtime.  There are two teachers in the room for eight toddlers.
    One of the teachers is very experienced - the other is new to daycare.
    I am very impressed with the experienced teacher but I have concerns
    about the other one for the following reasons.
    
    1. The first day I was talking to my daughter Alyssa - the teacher must
    have thought I was talking to her and said in a rude tone of voice, my
    name is Lisa.
    2. Later on the teacher made the comment that if Alyssa had an allergic
    reaction - she didn't want to be the one to go to the hospital with
    her.  I though it was an insensitive comment.
    3. After lunch the lead teacher was telling Lisa to clean off one of
    the children's faces (it was caked with yougurt) and the child was
    heading toward my daughter.  One touch of the yougurt and my daughter
    could end up in the emergency room.  Lisa got stressed by it and made
    a snappy comment to the lead teacher.
    4. On a very cold day my daughter's snow pants weren't put on her.  I
    realized it when she got home and the snow pants were spotless and her
    jeans were covered with dirt.
    5. Friday I met my daughter during lunch - she wasn't eating her lunch
    because it hadn't been heated up.  
    
    Am I being too picky here?  I certainly am going to talk (again) to the
    director about the serious nature of my daughter's allergies and how I
    think maintenance will be difficult.  Lisa spends more time talking
    about her own daughter who is in daycare there (infant) and I'd really
    prefer to hear how my daughter is doing.  
    
    I don't want to be known as the complaining mom, so advice from those
    more experienced with daycare situations would be welcome.
    Thanks,
    Nancy
    

    
    The reaction to all of the questions about daycare in this string, has
    been basically the same ....
    
    If you feel uncomfortable, CHANGE.  If you can't change, address the
    problems, over and over again, until you feel comfortable.
    
    For me personally, seeing how kids are in daycare (through having 3 of
    my own), if I had a child with such severe allergies, I think I'd be a
    nervous wreck letting them in a "regular daycare".  Have you considered
    option of perhaps hiring a nanny or sitter to come to your house? 
    There are moms out there with 1 or 2 kids that will babysit in your
    home, and then you just don't even have to THINK about "bad food" being
    around at all.  Or at the least, an in-home daycare at someone else's
    home seems like a more focused alternative.... in a center,
    particularly in one where 1/2 of the staff would rather not DEAL with
    your child's problem, seems like you're asking for trouble to me.
    
    Another alternative may be to see if your pedi or allergist can
    recommend someone/place that's used to dealing with this stuff
    regularly.  
    
    

    I think, considering Alyssa's needs, an environment with less 
    children is definitely needed.   The "Lisa" that is there is
    going to develop an attitude toward your child to be sure.  That
    is going to rub off on the lead teacher and most likely some of
    the other children.
    
    Moving Angeline to a home daycare with only two other children
    made so much difference in her overall, that I strongly support
    this type of environment as opposed to a professional daycare center.
    
    						cj *->

    How old is your daughter?  I think that makes a big difference, since
    if she can easily speak up you can avoid some problems.  But if she is
    under 3, I think this is an unreasonable expectation on my part!
    
    And if Lisa is acting this way with you around, I would be concerned
    about what she is doing/saying when she thinks no one is monitoring her
    behavior.  She seems over the line in your examples.
    
    judy

    It sounds to me like you just didn't pick a very cooperative center (or
    they have one "bad apple").  My son's allergies aren't quite so severe. 
    However, the center he currently goes to has never given me any grief
    when I've asked them to:
    
    	o  give him a different snack, while we were trying to determine 
    	   if, and to what he had allergies
    
    	o  put cream and/or ointment on his hands after any activity that 
    	   might dry them out.
    
    Even though there are very few things I've asked them to avoid,
    they've made a point to give him a selection for snack and/or juice, 
    if there is any doubt as to the ingredients.  In addition, they have 
    an "absolutely do not share your lunch" policy for all of the kids.
    
    I agree that age, and degree of sensitivity will make a difference.  
    At four-years-old, my son knows pretty well what to avoid, and isn't 
    shy about speaking up if he doesn't think he should have something 
    (namely peanuts, which he can't stand, anyway).  However, if someone
    makes a mistake, the reaction isn't so severe that he'd have to rush to
    an emergecy room.
    
    Peggy

Nancy,

It's been over a decade since I've had to deal with daycare on this level,
but I thought I'd share a few thoughts.

I'm not sure a) how long the daycare has been open, or b) how many years of
experience the director and teachers have had.  Sometimes, we have had
more problems with people with a lot of experience, because we were so
different (read: weird :-) from other parents.

We had originally had a problem with one of our daycare situations over 
giving Rosa food with sugar/honey/syrup: when we sat down for a talk 
(i.e., we made an appt to talk about it, rather than making comments at pick-up
 time), it became clear that their previous experience with parents forbidding
sugar/honey/syrup was that, by the time the children were a year old, 
those selfsame parents  were sending their children in with all kinds of sugar
products.  We were the first parents they'd ever seen whose child had made it
to the age of two without our "giving in".  Once we made it clear to them that
the issue wasn't just a matter of principle, but also a matter of Rosa's
metabolic hypersensitivity to sugar (she's outgrown it, btw), we never had
another problem.

It's not clear to me that it's clear to the director (and the teachers)
that this request for Alyssa to avoid certain foods is a major health
matter, and not a preference.  Frankly, I'm surprised that they are
willing to take Alyssa on, given the liability issue.  Have you given
instructions _in writing_ wrt the allergies?

wrt heating up the food:  is this something your daycare center does routinely,
or did you just assume they'd do it?  My experience is that children that
bring food in are doing so with the expectation of the food being eaten cold.

wrt the teacher, Lisa, I would definitely have a talk with the director.  If
that doesn't resolve the problem, I'm afraid I have to go with the "Find another
daycare situation" crowd.

Good luck,

Bobbi (suffering from teenager, rather than daycare, problems at the moment :-(

At the daycare where my kids (and lots of the Parenting kids) are
has a list in each room of the allergies for the whole center.
My Sarah is allergic to strawberries and/or red food dye.
We don't know which yet and have been instructed to avoid both
for the next few years.


I would make an appointment with the director to clear up the
questions you have.  In my experience, daycare centers only warm
food for infants.  Ask how teacher keep track of children's
allergies. (One good question to ask is what do they do about
parent-provided birthday cake a child is allergic to.  We run 
into that with Sarah; birthday frosting can be pretty garish).  

And, I think you should mention Lisa's behavior.  If this is who
she is, she doesn't belong in child care.  But if she is inexperienced,
she could use some training. (But, the only time I ever told the 
daycare director I thought a particular teacher needed to be observed, 
she was already well aware. The experienced teachers had brought it
up already. The teacher was terminated that week).

Pat

Hi, Nancy; we had some very similar concerns when my son started at a day care
center this year.  We actually didn't start him at a center until a year later
than we had planned just so we could come to grips with our own concerns about
his allergy.

The center consulted with us, and we came up with a pretty decent regimen for
handling the allergy.  Josh's picture is posted at all areas where food is
prepared, with a BIG sign that says he is EXTREMELY allergic to peanuts, etc. 
There are two lunch tables, LABELLED, one where peanut butter is allowed, and
the other where no kid may eat peanut butter.  The teachers PLACE the lunches
at the different tables.  All the staff is trained on the EpiPen, and knows
what procedures to follow in case of exposure.  The staff has been informed
about what ingredients to check for in food they make at the center, but they
usually check with us beforehand.  WE PROVIDE cupcakes to be kept in the
freezer for Josh, and he has one of them when they have a birthday party at
school.  The staff knows that unless they can be ABSOLUTELY certain that there
are no peanuts and nuts in the food, he is not to be served.  Josh is aware of
this, they don't try to lead him astray or anything.

Even with the regimen, we've had one trip to the emergency room, when Josh got
a hold of one kid's peanut butter sandwich by mistake and took a bite.  We had
a major meeting with them afterwards, and they added the permanently marked
tables, instead of deciding it each day based on the number of peanut butter
sandwiches.  They also escort Josh to his table a little more directly.

The center in general keeps the kids pretty clean, so we haven't had much of a
concern about exposure due to contact with other children, but it is a real
concern.  Also, we've had some concerns about contamination when they serve
various baked goods in a single basket.  Most recently, they got a rabbit in
the room, and are taking precautions to keep Josh from the rabbit food, which
has not been determined to be nut-free yet.

We love this center, they have a great staff and a wonderful program, but if we
felt Josh's health and safety were jeapordized due to insufficient care in
handling his allergy, he would not be there.

						Brian

    Re: Previous What center does Josh attend?
    
    One of the reasons that I chose this center was because their health
    policy clearly states that they will accomodate food allergies.
    When I dropped off Alyssa Tuesday, they told me that they planned to:
     - Have a teacher sit next to her at all meals
     - Change her diaper immediately after lunch while the other teacher
       cleaned the kids/table/swept the floor.
    Unfortunately when I picked her up Tuesday, other kids were playing in
    the playground and Alyssa was being held by one of the teachers.
    Her face was just starting to swell but I wasn't sure if it was 
    from getting up late from her nap.  On the way home she got a
    bright red blotch on her face and the swelling started.  I gave
    her some Benedryl and she was ok.  It was a very mild reaction for
    Alyssa but no one could understand why she had a reaction.
    I can't just keep my daughter in the house all day.   After only
    three days she has adapted to the center and the kids.  I doubt if 
    it is from mouthing toys because she has had exposure to mouthing kid's
    toys in the past and that hasn't been a problem.  The center does use
    their own cups so I am speculating that she might have  used one that
    wasn't cleaned thoroughly - so I am supplying cups from home.
    I also need to mention that the teachers wash their hands before
    touching Alyssa and her food.  
    This center does not do mornings only so I am thinking of trying to 
    find a center for her to go to mornings.  Or I may see if the director
    can make an exception.  This center seems to be the most accomodating.
    I have looked at home daycare and I wasn't impressed by what I saw.
    If she went only mornings, that would take away the lunchtime risk.
    The fact that her reaction was so mild at least gives me some hope,
    although I was hoping that she would have outgrown the allergy by now.
    It is a difficult situation.
    By the way - Lisa'a attitude has been very good.  I didn't speak to
    the director because she wasn't in when I dropped off Alyssa that day
    so at least that is not a problem.
    I don't know what to do next.
    Nancy
      

    Has anyone ever had a written contract with a daycare provider.  I have
    found a provider who I like for my twin girls.  We have successfully
    navigated a 30 day trial period (in spite of ear infections, a stomach
    virus -- everyone got it including our Nanny!) and now we are
    negotiating the "contract" for the next 11 months.
    
    I'm concerned because I have no experience with this -- and she has
    lots (eight years of negotiating with new Moms).
    
    Would anyone be willing to post their version of a contract or duties
    that were covered?  If this is already in the file -- just let me know
    where -- I wasn't sure what to use as a keyword or subject heading.
    
    Thanks a bunch.
    
    Lisa                      

                                                   Daycare Contract


          We, ______________________________, agree to hire ______________
          for the purpose of child care, beginning the day of _________.
          Child care will be provided Monday through Friday from 8:15 am
          through 6:15 pm.  For this child care service, we agree to a net
          pay of $_____ per week. This contract will be in place for one
          year beginning on the first day of service.

          Child care service includes the following:
          1.supervising the child's play time and naps

          2.bathing and dressing the child
          3.feeding the child

          4.cleaning up after meals and play time
          5.washing the child's laundry

          6.washing family sheets and towels (approximately 2 loads per
            week)
          If the child is to be left in the care of someone other than the
          parents,a note must be left with the child care provider stating
          who this person is, what time they will be coming, and a
          physical description of that person.  This person will be asked
          to show proper identification before the child care provider
          releases the child to  them.

          Medicines may not be dispensed to the child without written
          consent from the parents stating the dates, dosage, and times
          the medication is to be given.  In the event that the child
          develops a fever and the provider is unable to reach the
          parents, the provider may dispense the appropriate doseage of
          over-the-counter pain revliever (Tylenol, Panadol, etc.).
          The child may be driven in the car without prior consent from
          the parents.  The provider will be reimbursed for mileage and
          any food or other expenses related to outings.

          Payment for each week will be rendered by check on Thursday or
          the last working  day of the same week, whichever is earlier.
          The parents will be responsible for withholding all applicable
          federal and state income taxes and reporting all income to the
          appropriate federal and state agencies.
          The daycare provider will receive the same holidays as those
          enjoyed by the parents.  A list of holidays will be given to the
          provider by the beginning of the calendar year.  The daycare
          provider will also be paid for family vacation time which
          typically includes the week between Christmas and New Years plus
          an additional 1-2 weeks during the year.

          If the child care provider becomes ill and is unable to take
          care of  the child for the day, then the parents should be
          notified before the normal starting time for that day.  Up to 5
          paid sick days may be taken each year.  If either or both of the








          parents become ill and  daycare service is not needed, the
          daycare provider will be paid for that time. Similarly, if the
          parents entertain guests or relatives who wish to take care of
          the child during their visit, the daycare provider will be paid
          as though he or she had worked.

          There will be a 2-month trial period before a final commitment
          is made by the parents and the provider to give everyone a
          chance to adjust to each other.  Four weeks notice (or less by
          mutual consent)  is required for termination of this contract.
          House Rules: There will be no smoking in the house or anywhere
          around the child.  The daycare provider will not receive
          personal visitors nor will he or she allow anyone entrance to
          the house unless the parents have  previously instructed him or
          her otherwise. The parents will notify  the daycare provider if
          repairs are to be performed.  The daycare provider will neither
          receive nor make excessive personal phone calls while caring for
          the child.

          All parties hereby agree to the terms stated above.

          Childcare Provider: _____________________________________ Date:
          _______

          Parent:                 _____________________________________
          Date: _______
          Parent:                 _____________________________________
          Date: _______

Also contact the Childcare Resource and Referral Service
(if you haven't already).  They have a booklet on in-home
daycare that helped us determine exactly what we wanted
the nanny to do.

    Hi Deb,
    
    Thanks for the help.  Your contract is quite complete.  I may use it as
    a template and edit it accordingly.
    
    

I know, I know... I'll call the Chilcare Resource and
Referral folks, but... :-)

I've arranged for temporary home-based daycare for
the 6 weeks that I'm between nannies and this daycare
provider is also willing to be a backup whenever my
nanny calls in sick.  This is convenient, I like the provider
and Noelle is happy but I have the nagging feeling that I'm 
paying way too much for this.

If you're in the Nashua area and currently paying
for home-based daycare for a preschooler, please reply
here or send mail letting me know what the rate is.