Conference moira::naturism

    I'm surprised the last comments about the "act" didn't get anyone's
    attention. I remember my mother describing to me her disgust at seeing
    a couple in the "act" at a park, and I distinctly remember wishing I
    had been there to see it ( so I guess that means after puberty ). How
    can I honestly say the thought disgusts me?
    
    There have been a few times that my girlfriend has handled my penis,
    but I've asked her to stop, not that I consciously thought it was
    wrong, but because frankly it irritated me. It just doesn't suit the
    frame of mind I'm in.
    
    Maybe I have more hangups than I thought?
    
    						John.

Not entirely germaine, but "the act" can be a vague expression.  I've heard the
words "going at it" applied with digust by someone who had seen two men kissing.
"Going at it?".  C'mon.  If some witness saw a man and a woman naked and doing 
"the act" (their words) is that just kissing or something involving more 
intimate body contact?

I'm not one for chiming in agreement in a notesfile, so I just quietly share 
the frustration at misuse of our hard-won nude rights.  How should we react?  
Tell a ranger, sure, but make sure the ranger knows not
to shut the whole beach down (nude .NE. lewd).  But there's an interesting 
topic: how might we put a stop to public sex in naturist and nude zones?  Can 
it even be done?  Or: *Should* it be stopped?

    
    Just so that there is no misunderstanding to .4's reply of the 
    definiton of "the act",  the three couples (yes, 3 couples, all
    of which were heterosexual), "the act" means they were completely
    engaged in sexual intercourse as I passed by them on the beach.
    Do I need to be more explicit ?  Sorry, I don't mean to be rude,
    I just figured the "act" was a universal expression, understood
    by everyone.  I'm probably wrong.
    
    Should we do anything about it ?  Good question.  I'm not really
    sure.  I was rather intrigued by the whole thing really.  It's not
    often you pass by 3 couples doing the same thing within a 15 minute
    time span.  (That's how long it took to walk from point A to B on
    the beach).
    
    I guess it depends on where you are.  This beach was not really
    family oriented.  There were no children around that I could see,
    and everyone I met looked about 18 or over.  Interstingly too, is
    the fact that there were no "gawkers".  Sorry "gawkers" to me, means
    people who go to the nude beach to stare at naked bodies while they
    keep their clothes on.  And Rangers ?  Forget it !  One Ranger drove
    by on  his ATV and did not say anything, except to the couple closest
    to me, who he asked if they would mind moving closer to the water
    because he was afraid they had layed their blanket down over a nest
    of turtle eggs burried in the sand, but they could move when they
    were finished.  Gawd, I wish I had that on video tape!  It was
    hilarious!
    
    Anyways, different places have different attitudes, I think it all
    depends on where you are.
    
    Darrell
    
    
    

    Just so one thing is clear: I have nothing against it. Unfortunately
    this country has not yet escaped the reactionary wave of morality that
    has come from televised religion. One has to wonder how many are
    convinced that public sex is wrong of itself, and merely oppose nudity
    because it's the established stake in the ground, as it were, many
    completely unaware of their own dichotomy.
    
    Do we remove the stake altogether, or do we move the stake a little
    closer towards freedom, so as not to touch off a reactionary response?
    
    Doesn't politics suck sometimes?
    
    						John.

    O.K.  I feel the urge to speak up.  From the sounds of the last
    few replies, I think I'm going to be in the minority here.  .4
    (I forget who it was) asked if it (I'm assuming public sex is "it")
    should be stopped on nude or c/o beaches.  I think definately YES!
    I think sex between two people (or more, in some cases) is a very
    private thing and those people who get their jollies from "doing
    it" in public should put it on film or videotape instead so people
    who *want* to see it can go out and rent it or buy it, so people
    like me who really don't want to see people engaged in sex on the
    beach don't have to stumble upon it.  (Wow! What a horrible run-on,
    grammatically incorrect sentence that was!  But at least you get
    the point.)  Darrell mentioned that there were no children around.
    Well, no wonder!  I wouldn't bring my kid to a beach where people
    are having sex right out in the open and I really don't think any
    of you would either.  I'm a fairly liberal person - and I certainly
    don't have any sexual hang-ups (although some of you may disagree)
    but I mean, come-on.  People shouldn't have to be forced into a
    situation like that if it's going to make them feel uncomfortable.
    I don't think I'd be too uncomfortable (I'd really just ignore it),
    but there are people out there who *would* be uncomfortable strolling
    onto a scene like that and it just ticks me off that people have
    such little regard for others.
    
    - Kathryn
    

    I've seen situations like that at Moonstone and at Black's Beach.
    
    While it didn't bother me most of the time, I'd be upset if there were
    kids around.  
    
    Maybe we should move this to another topic?
    
    B.
    

The only problem with Kathryn's position in .-2 is that you could take almost
the entire note, substitute "public nudity" for "public sex," and it would
seem just as reasonable.  Indeed, it would be exactly the argument of many of 
those who are opposed to allowing nude beaches at all.  (See the end of this
note and see what you think.)  

It's a very awkward position.  I don't know if there's a compelling reason that
public sex should be any less acceptable than public nudity, other than that
there are fewer people who accept it; and here I'm telling society that they
ought to be more tolerant of nudity, even if they don't approve of it 
themselves; yet a good part of that argument has always been that "after
all, nudity doesn't necessarily have anything to do with sex -- thus implicitly
agreeing that (public) sex is just as objectionable to us as to the rest of
the world.

It seems like the choices are:

	1 - Public nudity is wholesome, and public sex is obscene.  This may
	    be true, but I'd have a hard time proving the distinction.

	2 - We need prude beaches for the clothing-compulsive, nude beaches
	    for the nudists who object to sex, and lewd beaches for the
	    "really liberated".  This seems like the obvious compromise,
	    but before we're done we may have more groups needing their
	    own beaches than we have beaches to put them on.

	3 - Everybody needs to learn to be more tolerant.  Maybe, but 
	    practically speaking, we can't even sell clothing-optional
	    beaches to the public -- what chance would we have if we could
	    no longer proclaim "nude is not lewd"?  And theoretically speaking,
	    athere must be limits *somewhere*, mustn't there?  (How very 
	    convenient that they fall just on the other side of the activity
	    that *we* want to practice.)

* * * * * * * * * *

If you're curious, here's Kathryn's note rephrased as an argument against
nude beaches:

    I think nudity is a very
    private thing and those people who get their jollies from exhibiting
    themselves in public should put it on film or videotape instead so people
    who *want* to see it can go out and rent it or buy it, so people
    like me who really don't want to see naked bodies on the
    beach don't have to stumble upon it.  ...  I wouldn't bring my kid 
    to a beach where there are naked people
    right out in the open and I really don't think any
    of you would either.  I'm a fairly liberal person - and I certainly
    don't have any sexual hang-ups (although some of you may disagree)
    but I mean, come-on.  People shouldn't have to be forced into a
    situation like that if it's going to make them feel uncomfortable.
    I don't think I'd be too uncomfortable (I'd really just ignore it),
    but there are people out there who *would* be uncomfortable strolling
    onto a scene like that and it just ticks me off that people have
    such little regard for others.
   

    re:-1 (Neil)
    
    Your point is well taken and I have to admit that yes, I agree
    with most of what you've said.  You seem to have put the whole
    thing into perspective more.  But you know, I'm having such a
    hard time verbalizing my *real* opinion.  I think my communication
    skills are lacking because I just can't find the right words to
    really express myself.  While you all know that I obviously find
    nothing wrong with public nudity, I *do* feel that public sex is
    not O.K.  It's just *different*.  Someone out there must feel the
    same way I do...  please??  Come on, help me explain this.
    
    - Kathryn
    

    Oh...well...
    
    I feel pretty much the same way as you do, Kathryn...
    Of course, I'm not sure I see why you have to defend your view.
    
    Instead, let's ask this question...
    
    Who thinks that sexual activity in full public view is okay, and WHY?
    
    I don't have anything against it if the people are discreet and
    courteous of other people's feelings about it.  At most naturist
    places, there are spots that are quite out of the view of other people
    that are appropriate for that kind of activity.  Naturists have always
    gone out of their way to not offend other people whenever possible.
    This is one of those situations.
    
    I feel particular strong against "doing it" in public where there are
    children around.  I would think that naturist parents would like to be
    the ones to teach their kids about the birds and the bees.  They would
    not want their kids to learn it "in the streets" and get the idea that
    sex is okay anywhere and anytime they feel like it; they have to
    consider other people's feelings.
    
    Of course, this discussion is about *public* acts of sex...

    One consideration that Must be addressed is the Legality issue.
    There are laws that typically criminalize "lewd and lascivious
    behavior."  The Naturist Society has in many instances argued in
    court that public nudity in certain places, or under certain
    considerations, is not in itself "lewd and lascivious."  In a number
    of cases, TNS has won.  Sexual activity in public (i.e., open to
    view by unsuspecting passersby) has, to my knowledge, Never been
    deemed acceptable to the judicial world.  [Please correct me if
    I'm wrong.]
    
    Individuals in a democratic society do not determine what is socially
    acceptable based on their personal feelings.  It is the majority
    that sets standards for acceptable behavior.  If, for example, Joe
    Jones decides that it is perfectly okay to go around kicking dogs,
    society won't tell Joe to go ahead and do it.  Joe's personal beliefs
    and values will be suppressed in favor of that of the majority.
                                      
    While I personally enjoy indulging in erotic activities in the open
    air, I seek out places where there is little chance of being observed.
    I don't think that this world has become so crowded that these places
    can no longer be found.  And hopefully I won't be around when it
    does!
    
    Jack

    Wow !  This is neat stuff !!
    
    	When I was on that beach and passed the couples who were "doing
    it", only a couple of thoughts passed through my mind, the first
    was "Hey, now that's something you don't see everyday", and the
    second was, " this must be a chain reaction .." (that was, by the
    time I had passed the third couple).
    
    	Who knows, maybe the first couple just starting kissing with
    no intentions of anything else, the second couple saw them and mistook
    it for sex, and said "oh, if they can do it, we can do it", and
    then the third couple seeing the second couple.... and so on.
    After all, all three couples, although some distance apart, were
    still within view of each other.
    
    	Maybe...it was just one strange Sunday.   Maybe....we'll (or
    rather I'll) never see this again ! 
    
    	Of all the beaches and the resorts that I have been too though,
    the general attitude of the people present seemed to be even more
    liberated I can remember elsewhere.  It felt like EVERYONE knew
    that this beach was a nude beach (no children, and no adults with
    clothes on), and that it could possibly be more.  There were lots
    of people there, and I'm sure that I wasn't the only person who
    knew what was going on.  No-one voiced any complaints, most just
    "grinned and bared it".
    

Re: .9

   > Instead, let's ask this question...
    
   > Who thinks that sexual activity in full public view is okay, and WHY?
    
I guess I'll be one in the minority here.  I think public sex is fine, and
there's nothing inherently wrong about it.  I agree with Ben that anyone
involved in such an activity should try to be discreet and courteous about
it, but in practice I'm sure that's not the case.

   > I feel particular strong against "doing it" in public where there are
   > children around.  I would think that naturist parents would like to be
   > the ones to teach their kids about the birds and the bees.

This is an interesting comment.  What would happen if kids were exposed to
people having sex?  Wouldn't they ask, "Mommy, what are they doing?"  And how
would the answer be different from that given if the same question came from
the child seeing animals "doing it"?  They certainly aren't concerned with
being discreet.  Maybe the parent didn't want to teach them about "the birds
and the bees" right then, but again, how much is it different with animals?
Obviously I don't have any kids, or I wouldn't be talking like this! :-)

I guess the bottom line is, "It doesn't bother me, so I think it's OK."

Re: .10

   > Individuals in a democratic society do not determine what is socially
   > acceptable based on their personal feelings.  It is the majority
   > that sets standards for acceptable behavior.  If, for example, Joe
   > Jones decides that it is perfectly okay to go around kicking dogs,
   > society won't tell Joe to go ahead and do it.  Joe's personal beliefs
   > and values will be suppressed in favor of that of the majority.

Of course this is also true.  And as someone who believes in democratic
societies, I'm (usually) happy to abide by the majority decision.  But in
a vote, I will nevertheless enter my opinion, minority or not.  This opinion
is also continually subject to change due to new information, or sometimes
my just changing my mind.  Isn't that how everyone works?

Carl

    Come on I guy's sex on a beach,in a pool or at a hot springs with
    people on the beach or in the water.(no) I dont want to be in a
    hot springs and have the couple next to me having sex.(really)
    
    If they are the only people there and they want to have sex.(yes)
    if everybody there is engaged in sex .(yes)
    
    We wonder why when we go to resorts they are more men the woman?
    How can you explain sex in the open to a person or couple that
    this is part of naturism? Are we saying that when we go nude we
    should all have sex? 
    
    I think that by people have sex in the open will only ruin it for
    everbody else.
    
    

    re: .8 (me)
    
    I got a mail message from someone who I believe wishes to remain
    anonymous.  It was in regard to my inability to express myself,
    and offered clarification.  Here's what he/she said:
    
    "I think I know why you find public sex to be so repugnant.  Taking
    an act of ultimate beauty between two people and putting it on display
    seems to demean it.  Physical loving is between two people, otherwise
    it is just sex...  Nudity is between yourself and the environment.
    Hope this clarifies."
    
    Seems to sum up what I wanted to say.  Thanks...
    
    - Kathryn
    

    I too enjoy sex in the open air, but I don't "do it" at nude beaches or
    campgrounds.  As folks have said, we have a tough enough fight on our
    hands just getting the right to go nude there.  I see nothing wrong
    with having a place where people who enjoy exhibitionism and/or
    voyurism, or just open air sex, can go to indulge themselves.  Such a
    place would (should) be as overt about what you may find there as most
    nude beaches today are, so that mom and dad won't have to explain
    anything to little Johnny before they (he) are ready.
    
    It really is the same thing, since there are moms and dads out there
    that don't even want to explain the anatomical differences, much less
    the functional ones.  These are (some of) the people that don't want
    nude beaches at all.  I just feel that we should restrict ourselves to
    one battle at a time, and not dilute our quest for nude beaches with
    other issues.  I think we will have a more winnable battle on our
    hands.
    
    So, getting back to the original question, I am bithered by the fact
    that the couples in question were engaged in "the act" when there was
    no warning to unsuspecting beachgoers that such might be the case.  I
    am bothered mostly by the potential ammunition that this might provide
    against nude beaches in general, and in fact, I would be lkess bothered
    if I came across a couple simmilarly occupied in an area that had no
    history of nude use.  I think we need to stick to our "nude is not
    lewd" motto, where what we probably really mean is that "nude does not
    necessarily imply lewd".
    
    						Fran
    

Re: .10

Fran makes some good points that I was thinking, but didn't quite get around
to saying, and I probably gave the wrong impression.  I don't favor public
sex if it might bring about the closing of a previously accepted (tolerated?)
nude area.  I'm not in favor of actions that spoil a good situation for
others, and myself as well.  We *do* have a tough enough fight finding/keeping
potential nude areas without trying to take on an even more radical cause.
I was just responding philosophically to the general question.

Carl

    Like all of us have replied so far, I enjoy sex. Like most of us, I
    even enjoy it outdoors, once in a while. BUT--- I have to be in a real
    kinky mood to watch and then I'd probably rent a video since I don't
    think any of my friends would let me watch them. Besides the couple of
    times I have come across people in the act I have felt uncomfortable. 
    Whether it was for me or embarrasment for them I don't know.
    I would much rather do than watch, and I would much rather not be watched.
    There is for all things a proper time and place. Malibu beach at noon
    is not for sex. Times Square on New Years Eve is not for nudity.

    Discretion is the key. 

Thanks to Fran for her excellent .15.  If I were to settle on a single,
pragmatic position on this conclusion (instead of the theorizing that I
usually engage in), .15 would describe it.

Notice, though, with respect to:

>    So, getting back to the original question, I am bothered by the fact
>    that the couples in question were engaged in "the act" when there was
>    no warning to unsuspecting beachgoers that such might be the case.

that the same is true for the great majority of nude beaches (notwithstanding
that the best protection against charges of indecent exposure may well be too
make sure that no one is subjected to one's nudity by surprise). From Darrell's
description of this *particular* situation, it may well be that the beach he
visited is, in fact, locally known to be a clothing/sex/optional beach.  I'm
afraid that it *would* "be as overt about what you may find there as most
nude beaches today are" -- that is, not at all.

	-Neil

> Thanks to Fran for her excellent .15.  If I were to settle on a single,
> pragmatic position on this conclusion (instead of the theorizing that I
> usually engage in), .15 would describe it.
    
    Thank you, but it is "his".  I guess it is time to write an intro :-)
    
    					Fran
    

    .17 puts my thoughts very well. However, just to rock the boat a little
    more...
    
    I have never been to a "sanctioned" c/o locale. I HAVE observed couples
    engaged in "the act" a few times over the years. Once in the back seat
    of a car parked at the curb in Georgetown (I was passing by on the
    sidewalk, noticed this parked car rocking a lot, glanced in, and...)
    Once in a public swimming pool (they were still (sort of) clothed).
    Numerous times at college parties.
    
    So, I guess my point is, what right would anyone have to "blame" the
    "improper" behavior of some couples on the fact that a place is c/o?
    
    Of course, I understand that many people who are opposed to the c/o
    locale would equate the two, but they are in fact two issues.
    
    Personally, I think public sex is improper, for many of the reasons
    expressed in other replys. That even goes for "overt displays of 
    affection" short
    of "the act" (eg, heavy petting on a park bench). Why? I guess I'm
    prudish. Puritan upbringing. I guess I also think "public" nudity is
    improper - that is, not restricted to area which are acknowledged to be
    c/o. I would be startled and consider it improper to encounter nude
    people walking across the lobby of a downtown office building. 
    
    BUT, I don't have any "prudish" objections to public nudity in "it's
    place" (au contraire, I am FOR it). I also guess I wouldn't object to
    "public" sex in "it's place", BUT it shouldn't be presumed they are
    automatically the same place. There are (or once were) clubs which
    encouraged public sex; the above-mentioned college parties, if everyone
    knew what they were getting in to; even if someone wanted to open a
    combination naturist/hedonist resort, and so publicize it. But let's
    not just accept crude behavior as part of naturism, any more than I
    accepted the swimming pool episode above ( I was a lifeguard; we
    evicted the people, although probably only the lifeguards realized what
    happened).
    
    Don Cooley
    

    It is extremely possible that the beach they were on is a place
    where that behavior is acceptable. Look at the facts....three couples
    were doing their fine thing. The park ranger asked them politely
    to move....because of what they were doing?...or where?.....no. Because
    they may be damaging the turtle eggs.                  
    
    Personally, I have no hangups about walking into such a scene but,
    in consideration of others...yeah, I would have to agree that they
    could have moved to a slightly less conspicous spot. 
    
    Another theory is that one of these couple may have been exhibitionist
    and enjoyed being watched and the other two couples were turned
    on by seeing them and on down the line....er...beach.
    
    My lady and I went to a party one time and neither of us were into
    this voyeur/exhibitionist thing. As a matter of fact, none of the
    other couples were either. During the evening, we were discussing
    nudity, pornography and a multitude of other things and I guess
    one thing lead to another and well,....oh, hell..you people don't
    want to hear this trash!
    
    
    ed

    
    	It struck me while reading the previous replies that a c/o beach
    is a more forbidden place to have sex than a clothed beach. Since it
    is expected or I might say feared that 'it'could take place at th c/o
    beach it is looked for or noticed more.
    	I have numerous times witnessed people having sex at public clothed
    beaches,in the water, under a blanket, or in the open. No one really 
    gawked or got upset. If everyone looks for it they will see it too.
    	Perhaps the couples mentioned felt they were in a semi-private
    atmosphere by selective exclusion.
    	I have also witnessed the sex act in restaurants and clubs but then
    I have never been accused of leading a sheltered life.
    	Roger

    
    I have been reading this notes file for a while now and considering the	
    posibility of going nude. My girlfreind is keen but i have had
    reservations. I have been reading this notes file to overcome some
    fears and answer a few questions/doubts i had. up until this note i was
    getting a little keen on the idea, this note has cleared away all
    doubts in my mind I WILL STAY DRESSED thank folks you have confirmed my
    doubts and fears completly
    
    	K.C.    Uk
    

re.23
On wht grounds do you base your decision? I don't mean to sway you one way 
or another I only would like to better understand what you found in this topic
that made up your mind. 

-jerry
(CSC32::Gortmaker)should you feel better about replying off line your comments
will be kept private.

    Re .23

    I'm surprised you have made the decision not to become a naturist on the
    basis of what's in here. Personally I had no intention of taking my
    clothes off in public until I read this topic.
    
    Ken.

    I am annoyed by the fact that such a progressive company is still so
    full of people with such provincial and puritanical attitudes about
    nudity and sex in public. What can I expect of the rest of the country?
    
    Nudity and sex is (among other things) what **we** , humans, are about.
    Children are not the innocent angelic cherubs some people would like
    them to be and, fortunately, never will be. We learn from others, we
    learn how to defend ourselves too, and we also learn about what is
    beautiful and pleasurable from seeing other humans "in the act". I
    don't think children begin having sex early because of what they see.
    Time and again we have seen psychologists explain that it is lack of love
    and care at home what pushes youngsters into confusing sex with love
    and seeking sex as a way of finding the tenderness they miss.
    
    So if some humans get carried away on a beach or restaurant or
    wherever, why the fuss? It is all part of the blind drive towards
    reproduction and we cannot (and should not ) escape it. I am much more
    concerned with the insouciance about violence rampant in this society.
    That is a force pro-death. Sex is always pro-life.
    

    
    In response to Ken and Jerry
    
    Jerry, I will mail you on this as soon as i am sure what to say
    as this is quite a personal matter.
    
    Ken, I did not make my decision based only on this topic and i have
    since recieved mail which is making me reconsider.
    
    thank you both for your concern
    
    Keith    K.C.   UK
    

    Personally I see no objection to public sex on naturist beaches,
    whether in front of children, grandparents or family pets.
    
    There's more to naturism than just taking your clothes off. 
    
    Dave

>
>    Personally I see no objection to public sex on naturist beaches,
>    whether in front of children, grandparents or family pets.
>    
>    There's more to naturism than just taking your clothes off. 
    
    
    <flame on>
    
    	HUH??????  This is EXACTLY the typical stereotype of naturism, that
    nudity always = sex.  This attitude does the naturism movement
    absolutely no good!
    
    <flame off>

>    There's more to naturism than just taking your clothes off. 

That's certainly true; but I don't think that the "more to naturism" is sex.

I'm not adamant that "shared" lovemaking (visually, not physically) is 
universally inappropriate within what would think of as a naturist context.
I *am* certain that it is not universally appropriate -- both for the purely
tactical reason that permissiveness about sex in public clothing-optional
settings would be the surest way I can think of to guarantee the demise of
public clothing-optional settings, and for the more general reason that I 
really don't believe that naturism is about "sexual liberation", and so I
don't see any reason that naturist settings should become an environment
for alternative sexual mores.

	-Neil

There is a set of etiquette suggestions from various naturist organizations
that attempts to maximize the enjoyment of naturism for the largest number of
people without offending anyone.  These rules help keep naturist locations open
for those who enjoy the clothing-optional lifestyle.  It also shows the public
that we're not a bunch of sex-crazed sickies...at least, most of us aren't. :-)

Unfortunately, alot of people ARE offended by sexual acts in public where they
don't have any control over who sees it (particularly around children).  I was
disgusted enough at Black's Beach to alert the life guards about a certain 
group of individuals.

The premise of naturism is that you CAN do alot of things while nude that you 
would normally do while clothed or in clothed situations.  If you don't normally
have sex in public (on a textile beach), why is it okay to do it on a nude 
beach?

I was at a beach in Rhode Island recently (not Moonstone) with a couple of
friends.  We hiked a while to an unused portion of the beach about half a mile
(or more) from the nearest people.  There was no one to get offended so we
staked out that piece of the beach.  After a while, some people came by and
set up camp near us.  They weren't offended because we weren't doing anything
unusual and we were not bothering anyone.  We overheard them saying that the
rangers wouldn't bother to come over because they'd be too busy looking for
troublemakers.

The naturists that I've had the opportunity to meet are some of the nicest
people that I know.  They don't like to cause any problems that would hurt
other naturists and their chances to enjoy naturism.  Having sex openly on nude
beaches (in this day and age) would give the textile public the wrong image
of us and give them an excuse to clamp down on naturist places.

Ben

> There is a set of etiquette suggestions from various naturist organizations
> that attempts to maximize the enjoyment of naturism for the largest number of
> people without offending anyone.  

See topic 32 for the "Free Beach Etiquette".

    RE: .27 thru .31 (especially .31)
    
    It really depends on where you are !!  I agree, if the nude beach in
    question is one that you wouldn't normally see people making love on,
    then you're right, it wouldn't be an appropriate thing to do.  I would
    tend to think that if the beach or property is owned by the state
    (or province, whatever), then it's probably advisable to keep your
    hormones under control while enjoying the naturist setting.
    
    However, I can think of a beach owned by Florida where it is practically
    acceptable behaviour... Cape Canaveral National Seashore, (which my
    note about this beach actually sparked this base note).
    
    Private properties (as opposed to beaches) which are open to the public
    also tend to be more .... liberal minded.  What about Paradise Lakes ?
    And how about Hendonism II (nude beach and jacuzzi, read my note on
    this).  Public sex does not offend me either, but I would not impose
    my beliefs or behaviours on anyone who might be offended.  On the other
    hand, how can someone say they were disgusted when they saw a couple
    engaged in public sex, but yet stayed and watched for 10 minutes ?!?
    
    

    >    HUH??????  This is EXACTLY the typical stereotype of naturism, that
    >    nudity always = sex.  This attitude does the naturism movement
    >    absolutely no good!
     
    With respect, not so. And I'm sorry if thats what you thought.
    
    I never said any such thing. I just don't see the need to outlaw what
    is a natural part of our lives. If a couple make love on a beach, they
    don't do it for your entertainment! I don't think sex is any more a
    part of naturism than of normal daily life, but neither do I understand
    why people should feel the need to have it hidden away from them. I
    thought we were trying to overcome our inhibitions. Would you be
    offended if you saw turtles mating on the same beach? 
    
    Dave

  I have never seen any sex on any nude beach that I have been to.

  I think if there was, the behavior would probably be frowned upon,
  and possibly stopped by others being offended.
  (at the beaches I go to)

  However, what that has to do with someones decision as to wether or
  not go naked is beyond me.  Wether or not you have your clothes on 
  or off, should not affect other peoples decisions to have sex on the
  beach (and I don't mean the drink).

  I tend to think that KC basically does not want to go naked, and
  thats that.  To me, thats fine, and is his own decision. 

  However, IF he has the impression that most nude beaches have people
  having sex on them, I think he's way off base!  I also don't see how
  any such impression could be derived from notes or peoples opinions
  in this file.

  I am not offended by people having sex in public. If I were, I wouldn't
  watch, but, basically, I know some people are offended, thus I wouldn't
  do it.  I think most people feel the same.

  I prefer clothing optional beaches because of the lack of offensive people.
  They are much more free of lustful, gawking and fairly obnoxious teenagers.
  Usually, they have a good amount of open space and everyone is quite
  friendly and open.   If KC doesn't feel comfortable unclothed, fine,
  but, if he is staying away from CO beaches, he's missing some of the
  MOST beautiful beaches in the world.  (i.e. the cliffs at martha's 
  vinyard, possibly the nicest beach in new england)  

  Then again, ... this does make more room for me!

  paul
  
  

    This is a very strange series of notes.  I get the feeling that there
    are things going unsaid here, or off-line conversations that are
    motivating some of these replies.   
    
    Anyway, my apparently naive reading of the following from
    .23 was that this person was nervous about going to CO beaches, but was
    feeling ready to try it.  Then he read in this note how people
    sometimes have sex on CO beaches, and was scared off.  I think I would
    be too.
    
>    Up until this note i was
>    getting a little keen on the idea, this note has cleared away all
>    doubts in my mind I WILL STAY DRESSED thank folks you have confirmed my
>    doubts and fears completly
    

    Then there's the reply below from .25 where this person, I hope jokingly,
    comments that after reading about the occurence of public sex on CO
    beaches, he is now EAGER to go.  
    
>    I'm surprised you have made the decision not to become a naturist on the
>    basis of what's in here. Personally I had no intention of taking my
>    clothes off in public until I read this topic.
    
    

I would like to remind our participants that common courtesy would suggest
that we refrain from imputing hidden motives, feelings, or opinions to
others based on the notes they write here.  It is, I think, discourteous
to say (in effect) "The author of this note said <xxx>, but what he really
meant was <yyy>."

	-Neil Faiman, NATURISM co-moderator

I must lead a very sheltered life.  I've never seen either public or private
sex at any beach, either textile or clothing-optional, or at any nudist camp.
I'm sure it happens; but I *strongly* doubt that public sex is, in general,
any more common at nude beaches than at textile beaches.  Despite its length 
and occasional heat, I still see this entire discussion as basically 
theoretical.

	-Neil

    I've witnessed sexual intercourse on the beach twice.  Once at 
    Black's Beach and once at a textile beach in Rhode Island.  The 
    folks in Rhode Island covered themselves with a blanket, but it 
    was still pretty obvious what they were doing.  In both circumstances,
    I was a little annoyed with these couples.  The beach in Rhode Island 
    was crowded enough to cause dismay in the people nearby.  The couple's
    public display irritated the people around them.  The folks at Black's 
    were much more discrete, pretty much alone, up on the cliffs -- I 
    wouldn't have realised that they were there had I not been walking down 
    the beach.  But the tide was high, and I couldn't walk on the beach, so 
    I had to walk up on the cliffs.  I was annoyed with them because I was 
    inconvenienced -- I didn't think it appropriate to stumble over them, so 
    I had to back track a fair ways to find another route.  
    
    All in all, I think that sex outside can definitely be a fun thing,
    but I'm very much in favor of discretion.  Having sex out on an open
    beach, even under a blanket, doesn't go over well with the general
    public.  If you are offending the people around you, don't do it.  
    If on the other hand, sex in public is considered a normal (or at 
    least acceptable) activity, then go for it if it's what you want to 
    do.
    
    Most naturists that I know try very hard not to offend other people.
    It's one of the things I like most about Naturists.  

>I'm sure it happens; but I *strongly* doubt that public sex is, in general,
>any more common at nude beaches than at textile beaches.  

Well i would have to disagree with you here, Neil.  I have seen in the past,
several open displays of public sex at CO beaches. I have *never* seen
any at textile beaches.  This behavior occured more than a few times 
in the past at Moonstone when there were no fences and there was the large
section of tall grass by the fresh water pond.  Although generally it did
not occur out on the main beach, it was hardly hidden from view when it did
happen.  

There was one incident where a couple was engaging in coitus in plain view.
When i noticed them and they noticed me noticing them, the young lady just 
looked at me and smiled.  Was i offended? Hell no, i think i was more 
envious :-).  Another time i was sitting with several people and another 
couple became very turned on with each other and were embracing one another 
quite erotically.  They finally went into the water to cool off, i guess.  
No one (at least as far as i could tell was offended by their public display 
of affection). It was a kind of strange situation.

I just can't believe when people say that there isn't anything sexual about
nuding whether in public or private.  There is something erotic for me to 
be naked outside in the sun feeling the warm rays penetrating my body,
even if i'm by myself.  However, if sexual behavior in public risks the 
closing of c/o beaches, then it must be controlled.  It is too bad, but
a sad fact of life and there aren't enough c/o beaches as it is.  I wish that
people would just mind their own business and not continually try to impose 
their morals and biases onto everyone else. We would all be a better
society for it, sigh...

-jim

   I can only speak from experience, and since I've never been to
   Moonstone, or nude beaches in florida, or Blacks Beach, then
   maybe I have seen a set of conservative CO beaches.

   I would say that if a certain beach has a reputation for public
   displays of sex, and if your offended by it (It also doesn't bother
   me at all) then avoid that beach.

   I'm a firm believer that there's enough space on this planet to 
   accomadate all types, and if a number of people would like to have
   a beach with public sex allowed than why not.  

   Many people find CO beaches offensive, yet we all fight for our rights
   to our own space, and a beach in which we can go naked.  Well if we start
   complaining that public sex should not be allowed anywhere on any beach
   then we are doing the exact same as those who want to shut down CO 
   beaches.

   Public sex is only offensive to those who look and are offende by it,
   just as public nudity is only offensive to those who look and are 
   offended by it.  I can't see any argument that can be used to defend
   public nudity that cant't be used to defend public sex.

   paul

    I second Paul's response in note .41.  The more I am involved in
    alternate life styles the less I am able to draw the line as to what
    should and should not be allowed by members of our society.
    
                                             Paul
    
    

    I feel that it's all a bit like Tv. If you don't like what you see then
    don't go there or in the case of tv turn it off. If you go to a beach
    that you know is one where clothing is optional and that will offend
    then don't go. Equally if bonking is common place on the beach and that
    offends the don't go. I personally feel that if there is no law to stop
    it and people themselves do nothing to stop it , then what's the
    problem?? If there were some moral or other reason why you should not
    make love on the beach then folks would go back to doing it in the back
    of a car or the long grass.
    
    
    	John

    I wasn't going to say anything, but I feel I have to...
    
    <FLAME ON>
    
    It really p*sses me off when people say "If you don't like it,
    then don't go".  People can easily have sex at home.  I, on the
    other hand, can't enjoy the beach if I stay at home.  I think it's
    rude and selfish of people to say "This is what I want to do and
    if you don't like it or if it offends you, tough."  Why should
    people who are offended by public sex have to stay at home?  If I
    wanted to watch couples making it, I'd rent a video tape.  And I think
    if you want to have sex in public, put it on a video and if you're
    lucky, you might even make some money.  As long as we're talking
    about public sex, why limit it to the beach?  Why not the shopping
    mall or the grocery store?  Hey, if you're offended, then don't go!
    
    Some of you people really irritate me.  I'm not puritanical and I
    love nude beaches - but what I really hate is selfish people who
    do whatever they please and have absolutely no regard for anyone
    else.  Somebody asked earlier if turtles mating on the beach would
    be offensive.  My answer to that is if you have to ask that question,
    then you must have the social graces of a turtle.
    
    <FLAME OFF>
    
    - Kathryn

    Kathryn, we're seeing a whole other side :^) of you. Way to go !

    There are alot of people who would love to close down every nude
    beach around.  They're looking for every excuse possible...
    
    The law actually does outlaw "lewd and lascivous" behavior in public.
    Nudity by itself barely (pun) squeaks by this limitation.  There's
    no way that public sex could get ignored by the police on a public
    beach.  Why would all these people want to cross the line and dare
    the establishment to arrest people and close down the CO beaches?
    We're having a bad enough time keeping these places open.
    
    Sex on a public beach doesn't really bother me, but if some people
    can't control themselves, then they should have the *COURTESY* to
    go elsewhere to continue their activities where they won't bother
    other people.  As Anne said earlier, naturists do care about other
    people's feelings and do not go out of their way to offend other
    people around them.
    
    Ben
    

    Yes, Ben...  you're exactly right.  *True* naturists are caring,
    sensitive people.  I don't place some of the people here in that
    category.
    
    - Kathryn
    

    uh...we have to be careful about stereo-typing people just because
    their opinions stray a bit from our own.  
    
    Regardless of our differences of opinion, we all want to keep the
    beaches free for all.  We are still working very hard at demonstrating
    to the general public that the CO lifestyle is normal and okay.  I
    think we should concentrate on that first.
    
    As for the topic at hand, the beaches that I've visited were all
    filled with families with kids of all ages.  With so few naturist
    beaches available, it'd be mean to tell these people to not go to that
    CO beach if they didn't like to watch people lose control of their
    hormones; there just AREN'T other beaches.
    
    The only way to show the general public that naturism is okay is to 
    show that we're there to enjoy the beach and not to go out of our
    way to offend anyone.  I was at a beach (I think I already mentioned
    this) with two friends 15 miles west of Moonstone (it was a regular
    textile beach).  We staked out a secluded section and went nuding.
    There was no one else there (at noon) so we didn't bother anyone.
    A family came around and set up near us (40 feet away?) and left
    us alone since we weren't bothering anyone.  They also figured that
    the rangers had better things to do than to harass naturists who
    weren't causing any problems.  
    
    This is the kind of behavior that we should be encouraging here.
    Without changing our behavior, we were demonstrating that naturists
    are normal people and we're not weird just because we don't like
    swimsuits; we want to show that there's no reason why naturists and
    textiles can't share the beach.
    
    
    B.

    re .44, .46: 
    
    So very well said!
    
    While I personally wouldn't be harmed should I happen to observe such
    activity, I feel it is extremely inconsiderate and presumptious for people
    to insist on the "right" to such activities on a public family beach. Were
    there enough alternatives, then maybe some could be designated, like
    rating movies. But there aren't, and a big part of getting along in a
    civilized society involves compromise  and self-restraint.  
    

    According to my observations people who are sexually active in
    any form at nude beaches etc, are usually not regular
    naturalists/nudists but occasionel thrill seekers.  

       No one should be surprised that public displays of the sexual act
       are offensive to many. After all, we live in a supposedly
       civilised society, and such things *should* be done in private. 

       I sincerely hope that public copulation continues to be considered
       unacceptable, whether on c-o beaches or anywhere else. I would feel 
       very sad if the time came where 'doing it' in the open, with
       the risk of being discovered, was to become acceptable behavior.

       It just wouldn't be fun anymore.

       Ken.

    I find it totally disgusting that people can lower the tone of a public
    beach by making love in public. That is unacceptable in my mind, don't
    these people have a home to go to??? Being allowed to bare all on the
    beach is one thing but performing in public should be kept for the
    sleezey strip joints and soforth ,not the damed beach!!!!!!!
    
    
    	Edna

    Re: .52
    Again we get back to an earlier comment -- I could replace "making
    love in public" with "going nude in public".    Cultural mores go 
    pretty deep.  The majority of US citizens still feel it to be obscene
    to flaunt you body in public.  "Genitalia is meant to be covered."
    
    You feel that it's totally disgusting to make love in public.  I think
    that there's a time and place for everything, but sex on a family beach
    isn't it.  Discrete sex on the beach?  Where no one would be offended?
    Well, be careful not to get sand in sensitive areas...  The same is
    true for sex in the woods.  There's something very nice about having 
    sex outside.  But that's my OPINION.  I'm sure there are some out there 
    who think that they should be able to have sex anywhere they feel like 
    having sex, regardless of what the others think.  
    
    Meanwhile, we have to look at our society and what is accepted.  Public
    nudity is quite accepted in Europe, especially at the beach.  Brazil 
    invented the Tanga or "dental floss" bikini (basically a G-string), but 
    total nudity is not acceptable.  And here in the US, the tanga has
    caused a big stir, and they're illegal on most Florida beaches.  The
    vast majority of people in the US think that public nudity is lewd and
    lascivious.
    
    We're trying to break down society's strong feelings against public 
    nudity.  If we want to get anywhere, I think it is important that we
    control our sexual urges in public.  Otherwise, we'll wind up losing
    some of the ground we've fought so long and hard to conquer.

Remember one thing:  C/O beaches are C/O, not Sex Optional.  Sex Optional would
be a whole different classification.  The two are not even closely related.
(well, other than that most people are naked, at least in part, during sex)
Sex in public is sex in public, no matter if it's a textile, C/O beach, super-
market, mall, ZKO, etc...

My $.02...

Tim

    I have been reading through some of the replys to the original note and
    it seems to me that its an isolated case. Don't get me wrong , I would
    be annoyed more than anything if I had to step over writhing bodies on
    a public beach. Sure have clothing optional beaches, but sex optional,
    come on that's taking it too far. I don't know the beach in question
    but I suspect its not the kinda beach you step of the sidewalk
    onto,secluded beach. In anycase I don't beleive that folks are
    exhibitionists to the extent that they will perform the act in full
    view of everybody on the beach. I can accept that couples may go off
    into the dunes, long grass, caves whatever and get it on, but then whats
    new about that . As I think someone has already said public
    exhibitions are for strip joints and video tapes. I tend to go along
    with that view but hey come on guys sneeking of into the woods, long
    grass or where 'NO ONE CAN SEE' is part of the excitment. People have
    been doing that for ages but never as a public exhibition.
    
    The original note I believe mentioned that it was 3 couple in 15 mins,
    You can't exactly call that wide spread, I can walk a good distance in
    that time.
    
    
    My final word, Having sex on a crowded beach for all to see in wrong
    and should be made an offence ( unless it is a private, do a you want
    beach ) but sneeking off where no one can see is ok in my books.
    
    
    	willy

    I think the main reason we keep on talking about sex on the beach is
    because it's titillating! Actually, I've never seen anyone doing it on
    the beach and sand does get in the way if you know what I mean. The
    water is a different story however and the buoyancy allows you to do
    marvelous things ( there we go again!)
    
    I did trip over a couple going at it but it was at a rather dark night club in
    Copacabana, Rio de Janeiro. The whole audience was very encouraging to
    the participants and apart from the fact that it was a little too dark
    everything was fine. 
    
    I think Americans tend to be a little too puritanical at times. Only by
    exposing these mores and taboos do we have any chance of changing them.
    I do worry, however, that some things will stop being exciting. Anyway,
    que sera, sera.
    

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. If you offended by public sex, then
you have the right to express that opinion. You will find that most people do
not think public sex is acceptable. Most people do not engage in public sex.

However, when you start dragging the legal system into this, you are asking
the state to not only take away the right for people who want to to engage
in public sex, you are asking the state to take away the right for anyone to
do something others might (mistakenly, ha, ha, ha) take as offensive.

If you're too shocked to know what to do, then that's your problem, and you
must deal with it. The alternative is to unleash the state to construct a vast
legal system bent on eliminating nonconformity.

While I'm at it, I do think naturism is a form of sexual liberation. It in
essence says that it is perfectly natural to have different bodies and that
it is acceptable to acknowledge this fact.

							John.

    Well, first off I think some people confuse sensual with sexual.
    Naturism is definitely sensual.
    
    Public sex, not me thanks.  But for others, I would not use the word
    disgusting, more likely degrading.  I've lived on farms, sometimes it
    can be right arousing to watch some of the animals engaged in coitus.
    People, well they are animals to.  Just don't expect me to participate,
    sanction or otherwise involve myself in the activity unless I want to.
    
    Beyond uncovering the genitals, sex has no relation to naturism.  In
    many cases naturism is practiced in private locations where rules must
    be obeyed.  In a non-private setting, laws are the guide
    (unfortunatley, the interpretation of some laws can be used against
    naturism also).  
    
    I guess my bottom line is, animals don't care who watches and are
    unlikely to be influenced by others opinions or views.
    
    Am I a naturist?  I don't know, I still haven't taken the test ;-)

    I guess this is rather a late reply. But here is my opinion.
    
    I think one way to sort out the problem is to have some area in a
    Clothing Optional beach demarkated for having sex. This area should be 
    clearly marked "SEX OPTIONAL AREA". There should be a barrier to keep this 
    out of the view from other C/O areas so that no one is offended. If people 
    get aroused & want to have sex they should go to this area. Whether they 
    take children with them or not should be left to them. Also whether some 
    one peeps at this area from the other side of the barrier should also be 
    left the person's liking (there is absolutely nothing wrong if this
    happens)
    
    Other than this there no use arguing about moral aspects of sex in a
    C/O beach. I feel it is wrong to impose your ideas (or rules) on
    someone else. Every body on this planet has his/her right to live the
    way he/she likes best. Naturism is not an exception to this.
    
    
    - Sunder
    

Personally, I think there is a time and place to `make love', `have sex' or
whatever you want to call it.  ;-)  Last time we were at Valley View, which
was a few weeks ago when Ben Wong was here, there was a couple laying in the
wading pool at the side of the swimming pool.  The woman was fondling the
man's genitals with no regard as to who was around or in the pool with them.
There happened to be two children (not theirs) in the wading pool at the time.  
I couldn't believe it!  She then laid across the top of him and they proceded
to have sex in broad daylite with approx 40 people near-by.

I was in a quandry as to what to do if anything.  Since it didn't seem to be
bothering anyone besides me, I didn't say anything.  My question to everyone,
if something like this bothered you, what would you do?  Tell management,
tap the couple on the shoulders and tell them to take it elsewhere, or what?

Judy

    Well, you could try throwing icewater on them 
    dbc ;-)
    

    But seriously, now that I've given my glib answer:
    
    Judy, your description conjures up an image of a monkey or baboon cage
    in a zoo. 
    
    Most folks, when they see the critters doing it, either watch
    interestedly or turn away. They either explain to their kids whats
    going on, or they quickly usher them to the next cage. So I suppose the
    reaction to humans doing this is probably much the same - hmmmm?
    
    Even with that "enlightened" attitude, I still think their behavior is 
    appalling. The presumption (on their part) that everyone present is
    comfortable with that performance just because they are  (presumably)
    comfortable with nudity is outrageous. They are saying "we'll do what
    we please - deal with it!"
    
    dbc
    
    

    
    
    		I think I would have to agree with Judy.  Nudity is not
    sexual....I see it as non-sexual intimacy.  For me, public sex would
    kind of cheapen it but maybe thats my upbringing coming out. :-)  And
    yet I can see the other view point because of all the "issues" around
    sex and if we could only get past that meybe we would have a more 
    healthy society.  As you can see, I am double-minded about it.  
    
    		I will say that sex while children are around should be a
    no-no.  While I believe that we need better sex education, I cannot
    think that public sex would accomplish what is really needed.
    
    
    Dave

I believe that children are not ready to handle the emotions involved with adult
sex, fortunatly much of what happens just goes over their heads.

When I take my family to a Naturist establishment, I expect that there will be
no explicitly sexual behaviour, and most places we have visited have this as a
rule. If I found that sort of behavior at some where I visited then I would
certainly not return unless the management took some action to prevent it in the
furture.

Peter.

    
    I also believe that public "sex" ought to be delegated to specific
    areas.  I don't know if I would go as far as having a "sex beach",
    a beach marked that sex on the beach is accepted.  I would much rather
    mark secluded sections of the beach "for adults only", stating that
    some behavior on this beach may not be appropriate for viewing by 
    children.   Just as we can keep children out of bar rooms, I suspect
    we should be able to keep children out of other areas as well.
    
    I don't subscribe to telling people how they can live their sex
    lives, and if there is an area where any number of people would like
    to have public sex, on the beach thats fine with me.  But I also 
    subscribe to the rule that sex at a resort where children roam freely,
    and where unsuspecting guests might not be forwarned is unacceptable
    also.
    
    paul