Conference moira::naturism

    It seems to me that you might have pressured your wife to go to
    a nudist facility before she was really ready.  And that the (I
    assume Willing) participation of Susan and her husband was an
    additional pressure.  Are you letting your wife know how much you
    appreciate the fact that she's giving it a try?  Or how much you
    love her, and her body?  Or could it be that YOU are feeling somewhat
    self-conscious about your wife's appearance, especially when compared
    with Susan (considering how you have been "wondering" [Fantacising?]
    about how she will look)?
    
    I believe many of your fears are well founded, based on what you
    have written.  You have admitted a possible Lustful motivation,
    have considered that Susan may look much more attractive than your
    wife, and have let your wife know that these things are important
    to you.  (If I have misread anything, I apologize.)
    
    I believe you have to look at what your motivation is for going
    to this nudist facility.  If it is to initiate a sexual relationship
    with Susan and Jim, then that should be made known to all concerned,
    so that they may each decide if that's what they want to do.  If
    it is to share the nudist/naturist experience, with no ideas or
    desires for anything sexual outside the marriages, then that should
    be made clear also.  In any case, I would strongly recommend that
    you and your wife have a good, positive, loving communication session,
    before you go to the nudist facility.
    
    (All the above is my not-so-humble opinion.  No flames, please!
    ;')
    
    Jack

    I would recommend _not_ taking another couple along on your first
    naturist experience.  Although you may think that having company on the
    trip may make it easier, I think it just makes it wierder.  There's a
    lot to be said for anonymity when you first get started.  You don't
    have to talk to anyone unless you want to; if you feel like a fool, at
    least you won't ever have to see those people again, etc.  The idea of
    people I already know "seeing" me (even now) is still very difficult to
    handle.  I took a female friend to the beach once (we left both
    husbands home), and even that was a little strange.
    
    Maybe after you get more experience with naturism, you'll be able to
    handle sharing it with friends (or maybe not).
    
    If you really want to go on this trip, leave Susan and her husband
    home.

    RE: .0
    
>>>- She thinks she will be very self conscious as everyone will be looking
>>>  at her.

    	Everyone (that I know of) has gone through this before.  It's a
    	pretty scary experience to take off your clothes in front of
    	others publicly/socially.  It's usually something that goes away
    	fairly quickly when you actually get down to it.
    
>>>- What if I discover that her friend (Susan) has a much better body that my
>>>  wife does?

    	So...what if?  Your wife's friend may or may not have a nicer body.
    	Should that hinder you from enjoying naturism?  I hope not.  After
    	"seeing" some of the people from this notesfile, I noticed that 
    	some people have nicer bodies, and some don't.  It's "natural".
    	Imagine if we all had the same bodies? yech! BORING!
    
>>>- My wife is afraid (perhaps too strong a word) of the sexual connotations
>>>  that are associated with Naturism. 

    	Welcome to the club.  I don't think that I was too surprised and
    	nor was I disappointed when I first went nuding and there weren't
    	millions of "supple nymphomaniacs clammering for my bod". :-) :-)
    
>>>- We have discussed my possible physical reaction to "seeing" Susan. This is
>>>  of particular importance as I have wondered for quite a while what she is
>>>  like. 
    
    	The owners of some naturist place has always bet that guys will not
    	get an "embarassing reaction" during their first public nuding 
    	experience.  This usually results from first-time nervousness.
    	If it does happen...well, you are human, right?
    
    >>>-My wife feels that there is lust here. Could be even though we both
>>>  know nothing would happen. I must admit that I have fantasized about the
>>>  trip. My wife has also admitted to fantasizing about the trip and seeing
>>>  Susan's husband, Jim.
    
    There's nothing wrong with "window-shopping" if you have nothing to
    buy, especially if you don't touch and don't buy.  It's a natural
    curiosity to want to look and see what's been forbidden for viewing.
    There's probably a few friends that I wouldn't mind seeing nude at
    least once, but then (after the first time) it wouldn't be a big deal
    anymore.
    
    If you really want to try nuding socially and are worried, I'd suggest
    going with your wife to some place, like a public (or private) beach or
    a naturist resort.  You can ask yourselves if that is the kind of place
    or situation where you would feel comfortable with your friends.  I've
    have a few (women) friends out in the textile/real world that I've
    also "seen" at some nuding event later (and they ARE quite attractive).  
    We've had no problems being just friends and having nice conversations
    while being nude around each other.  
    
    The worse part is the anticipation what will happen when you're nude 
    around other people.  What will happen?  What's the worse thing that
    could happen?  How about getting your rear burnt badly and not being
    able to sit for *DAYS* and not being able to explain that to your textile
    friends?  Now THAT'S embarassing.  Human reactions to nude people don't even
    come close to that.
    

    First, a general observation:  it sounds like your wife is having the
    perfectly normal misgivings about going into a new and unknown
    situation.  Unless you pressured her into the idea in the first place,
    I would bet that within half an hour of getting there, her qualms will
    be forgotten.  (You can tell her that *a lot* of us wondered "What is
    this really going to be like?" before our first nudist experiences,
    only to discover that it was no big thing at all.

    Second, it appears that a lot of the misgivings revolve around the
    fact that you are doing this with another couple who are your friends.
    A lot depends on just what your relationship wih them is.  (We have
    never gone nuding with friends, so I don't have any personal experience
    about this.)  If there is some sexual tension in the friendship, then I
    can imagine that this might complicate it; but if you are all good
    friends, and all reasonably open to the idea of this experience (again,
    no one being pressured into it), I wouldn't expect any problems.

> She thinks she will be very self conscious as everyone will be looking
> at her.

    A common expectation (especially among women, it seems).  Just tell her
    that the common experience of thousands of nudists is that that concern
    evaporates in no time at all.

> What if I discover that her friend (Susan) has a much better body that my
> wife does?

    What if you do?

    We are surrounded by women of varying degrees of attractiveness every
    day of the year.  Many of them have some features that are more
    attractive than our wives'.  We've probably seen many women with "better
    bodies" (by some abstract standard) than our wives.  SO WHAT?  When I
    see an attractive woman (nude or clothed), I appreciate the experience,
    but that's all.

    If you haven't considered trading your wife in for Susan before, the
    opportunity to compare their bodies certainly isn't going to inspire
    you to it.

    As I've mentioned elsewhere in this file, I've seen hundreds of women
    nude.  I'm sure that many of them are "more attractive" than my wife.
    Yet the *only* times I've felt a hint of sexual arousal in a nudist
    setting have been when contemplating my own wife.

> My wife is afraid (perhaps too strong a word) of the sexual connotations
> that are associated with Naturism.

    My own conviction is that part of the attraction of naturism consists
    in *sublimated* sexuality.  (Part of the attraction of *any* beach is
    probably sexuality, and probably a lot less sublimated when people are
    wearing swimming suits than when they're nude.)  But most of the sexual
    connotations are associated with Naturism by people who have never
    experienced it.

> We have discussed my possible physical reaction to "seeing" Susan. This is
> of particular importance as I have wondered for quite a while what she is
> like. My wife feels that there is lust here. Could be even though we both
> know nothing would happen. I must admit that I have fantasized about the
> trip. My wife has also admitted to fantasizing about the trip and seeing
> Susan's husband, Jim.

    I don't know you and your wife, or Susan and Jim; but I would guess
    that the best cure for such fantasies will be the actual experience.
    There's no need to wonder any more, once you've seen someone naked and
    realized that it didn't make any difference.

    The bottom line:  most people find that nudity with others doesn't
    make any real difference, except that maybe it helps them feel a little
    freer about themselves and a little more accepting of their own bodies.

    --------------------

    By the way, you might find it interesting to go back and read Sandy
    Newfield's note 14.11 -- especially the following passage:

        Really funny though, at LV beach when a woman walks by in a Thong
        or even a tiny bikini - you can watch all the men (& some women)
        watch as this woman walks by... all the heads turn.  Much sexier to
        watch someone is something so tiny and not quite revealing all

    Some meditation on the nearly universal truth of that observation can
    give a lot of insight into the *real* relationships between sex and
    nudity.

	-Neil

.1 and .2 were entered while I was composing .3; and I think that there is
a lot to what they are saying.

Many (or most) people who try nudism like it, and quickly find it natural
and comfortable.  None the less, ones first nudist experience is usually 
a little stressful, just because it's so different from what you've done
before.  Adding a couple of friends to that picture can really complicate
the dynamics.  

Even many experienced nudists (like Deb in .2) choose to keep their nudism
separate from their "regular" friendships, out of concern about confusing
the relationships.  You might do well to try out nudism with just your wife 
the first time, to learn what it is like, without the added tension of
worrying about the relationship with your friends.

However, I know that many of our participants here have no problems being nude
with friends; so I hope that you will get some responses that express the other 
side of the picture.  Given the right sort of friendship, I'm sure that all
four of you could have a fine time.

	-Neil

    I agree with Deb in .2.  Maybe you should consider going to a local
    resort (a day trip, perhaps) with your wife just to get see what
    it's like first before you go off with friends.  You never know
    how you might feel around these people later.  I think your wife
    sounds perfectly normal - please try to be understanding of her
    feelings and be patient with her.  As Jack mentioned earlier, at
    least she's willing to give it try.
    
    I can't say I'd be too uncomfortable going to a nude resort with
    friends - but you never know.  Maybe the four of you should all
    sit down and talk about it - it could be that Jack and Susan have
    some of the same concerns that you and your wife have.  That might
    make the whole thing a lot more relaxed knowing that you're all
    in the same boat.
    
    At any rate, I hope you and your wife have a nice time - whatever
    you decide to do.  Don't pressure yourselves.  That could really
    ruin your trip.  The advice you've gotten so far in .1, .2, .3 and
    .4 all sounds good to me.
    
    - Kathryn
    

    Oh friend, by setting up these plans you have already overcome the
    most difficult of obstacles. Many people never even get that far
    ( much as they wish they could ).
    
    It's OK to have sexual thoughts and feelings. Sexual intent, if
    present, was probably there all along. That's neither good nor bad.
    About the only thing I can recommend is honesty. It won't get you
    into any more trouble than what you've already got coming.
    
    If for some reason I go to a nude beach without my girlfriend, the
    first question see asks when I get home is " Did you see any nice
    boobies? " I usually say " Yes ".
    
    You see, uncertainty is intrinsic in any relationship, whether you
    care to be honest about it or not. In the short run, uncertainty
    seems unbearable. In the long run, however, it's the only thing
    left to motivate the relationship!
    
    No one in this conference can solve you and your wife's uncertainty.
    I guess what I'm saying is that uncertainty is healthy in a
    relationship.
    
    I think your chances of having a successful nude experience would
    be much less if you weren't concerned and uncertain.
    
    When all the boundaries are taken down, what's left is uncertain.
    
    							John.

The summer has gone now.  Do you have any feedback?  Was any of the advice 
used?  Are there now four more converts to the Naturist philosophy?  Let us 
know how it went.

    For a great first time nudist experience try Club Med in the French
    island of Guadalupe. My wife and I went there for her first try
    at nude sun bathing and she got into it right away. Toplessness
    was the norm on the main beach and nudity was the norm on the side
    beach. Both beaches were great. We had a great time and also new
    in advance from friends that nude sun bathing was praticed at this
    Club Med. I must state that this was in 1983. A few years back on
    the odometer of life. Another great place to try is Club Orient
    at St Marteen. We went there with a couple who were not into nude
    sun bathing at all. It is cloth optional though they were a definate
    minority it was not a problem for anyone. We all had a great time
    and wonderful vacation.