Conference moira::naturism

    I think the key word is "intent"...
    
    It is quite possible to go nuding with someone of the opposite sex
    and not have ulterior motives.   I've gone nuding with a friend that
    I met off the beach and I've had no problem just being friends.  (of
    course, the presence of her husband kept things in check! :-) -) )
    
    On the other hand, is it worth risking the relationship?  Don't know...
    
    Too bad you couldn't get your SO to go along when you go nuding so
    you could show her how nice it was, even if she didn't go nude.
    It *is* clothing-optional, right?
    
    B.

    Jack,
    
    How would your SO have felt about you going to a textile beach
    with your other female friend?  Is it because you were both nude
    that she became upset or because you were *alone* with her?  I
    must honestly say that I'd probably be a little ticked off if my
    husband went off to the beach alone with another woman whether
    or not they were wearing clothes.  Now, on the other hand, if he
    went off with *several* friends of both sexes and I was not able
    to go along, I wouldn't be upset at all.  I think that because
    you were alone with her it made it seem like more of a "date".
    Also, the fact that your SO is not a naturist is probably adding
    a little fuel to the fire.  Think about it.  Reverse the situation.
    
    As for where I draw the line...  well, I don't feel I'm any different
    from anyone else - naturist or not.  I expect honesty in any rela-
    tionship I'm in and for that to take place, you have to know what
    the other person expects from the relationship as well.  I know
    that if I went off to the beach with a male friend (however innocent)
    my husband would be upset - so I don't do it.  I'd be upset if he
    took another woman out to dinner and didn't invite me to go along
    even if it was a restaurant he knew I didn't like.  But if he asked
    and I wasn't in the mood to go, I'd say "No thanks, honey.  But
    don't let me keep you from going and enjoying yourself."
    
    Maybe if you asked your SO to join you because it was something
    *you* really enjoy doing she might have looked upon it differently.
    This would have given her the option to see for herself that there's
    nothing going on between you and the other woman.
    
    - Kathryn

I think that Kathryn has identified all the key issues.  

Going off for the afternoon with another woman ... hiking alone in the woods ... 
swimming / sunning all by yourselves at a secluded place ... in the nude ...

There's nothing intrinsically wrong with any of that.  In some relationships
it would be 100% ok.  In some (the majority, I suspect), it wouldn't.  I'm
sure that what you're describing is absolutely innocent, and I expect that
your SO is equally sure.  But I don't find it at all surprising that she 
would be uncomfortable about it.  (Whether it's *reasonable* for her to be
uncomfortable is really a question of the nature of your relationship, and
not of the facts of the situation.)

But it seems to me, like Kathryn, that most likely, "in the nude" is only one
element in the total picture that makes your SO uncomfortable.

	-Neil

    Just a clarification.  Before I went off with this "other women,"
    I discussed it with my SO.  She indicated that she had a problem
    with it, but understood that we have some disparate (sp?) interests.
    I made it very clear that the day WOULD be innocent, and that I
    have no romantic/sexual interest in anyone but her.  But even though
    the day WAS innocent, my SO's "Nudity=Sex" upbringing won out. 
    I understand (and appreciate the input!) what Kathryn and Neil are
    saying, but I'm not sure I agree that a situation as described should
    be avoided.  If there is caring and trust, I don't see a problem.
                                     
    I have invited my SO to accompany me to Willard Pond, with no
    expectations of her removing any clothes.  I also invited her to
    join the Other Woman (OW?) and I.  If she wanted to go to dinner
    with a male friend, I would not expect her to invite me.  After
    all, he would be HER friend, not mine.  I trust her, and feel confident
    that the situation would be on the up-and-up.  Now change "dinner"
    to "skinny-dipping," and I believe I would still trust her.  It
    would probably bother me somewhat (DEFINITELY?), but I would not
    try to influence her not to do it.
                                     
    Maybe I was looking for a different set of values from naturists
    than from non-naturists, and fundamentally we are the same.  Is
    that true, or am I misreading the messages?
    
    Again, Thanks for your responses,
    
    Jack    

        
    I think that there is a big difference in being reasonable and
    being caring.

    Reasonable is doing what, by some intellectual standard, is an
    acceptable behavior.

    Caring is doing what, in the eyes of the other persons, does
    not cause undue stress.

    I believe that life requires a careful balance of reason and
    caring, a balance of being couple oriented and meeting one's
    own needs. Since the intellectual standards and eyes are very
    individualistic, we must all struggle for our own answers.

    Do clothes make a difference? It again depends upon the
    standards and eyes. For some nude sunbathing is a problem but
    hiking in the woods "birding" would be acceptable.

    I can only speak for my situation, independent activities are
    fine with both me and my wife. There is no difference between
    birding and nuding. I guess I am lucky that, for some reason, we
    both usually choose to be together. 

    - gerry
        

    I want to thank you all for your responses to this question.  In
    my situation, the problem was very quickly settled - I agreed that
    BECAUSE it bothered her, and NOT beacuse it was intrinsically wrong,
    I agreed to not go nuding in a secluded area alone with a female.
    She has no problem with my doing in a very public place (e.g.
    Moonstone), or with a group of people (incl. all females!).  As
    Gerry indicated, my response was one of Caring.  But my original
    question, paraphrased "Does sharing a nude experience alone with
    a member of the appropriate sex who is not your SO/spouse constitute
    a breech of intimacy?"  And it looks like the nudist/naturist answer
    is "YES!"
    
    Jack

>    But my original
>    question, paraphrased "Does sharing a nude experience alone with
>    a member of the appropriate sex who is not your SO/spouse constitute
>    a breech of intimacy?"  And it looks like the nudist/naturist answer
>    is "YES!"

Jack,  that's not how I would interpret the responses that you've been getting.
Rather, I think that we (I, in any case) have noticed that what constitutes a
"breach of intimacy" is really one of the ground rules of a particular 
relationship, rather than a universal law of human relations; and that 
if something makes *your* SO uncomfortable, then that is a fact of your
relationship that you need to take into consideration.

For some people, going bowling with the woman next door would be a breach of
intimacy.  For others, an affair would be acceptable.

	-Neil

    re:-1 (Neil)
    
    My sentiments exactly...  that's what I meant about going to
    dinner in my response.
    
    - K
    

And I agree with Neil (-2) regarding it depends on your relationship.  

If I knew it bothered my husband/SO that I was nuding with other members
of the opposite sex (and he is not present), then I wouldn't do it, out 
of respect for his feelings.  

In a "true" relationship, there is a lot of give and take, alot of sharing
the same emotions but still having your own identity and own emotions, own
feelings.  Someone can't make you feel different unless you want to.  I
respect a person's choice to feel what they feel as long as it does not cause
discomfort for either party.  It is a fine line and needs to be dealt with
in a positive manner with hopefully a win/win situation for both parties.

Judy