Conference moira::naturism

>>>    yourself.  If you could no longer see genitals at Moonstone, but
>>>    could see virtually everything else, would you still go?  Would
>>>    you drive for two hours from Massachusetts, and would you still
>>>    pay that exorbitant parking fee?  Would Moonstone still be the
>>>    attraction that it is today?  Would it be any attraction?
    
>>>    Just how important are genitals to our enjoyment of naturism?
    
	If I could no longer see whose genitals?  mine or someone else's?
    
    	The attraction that Moonstone holds for me the fact that *I* can
    	go nude there; it doesn't really matter if there's someone else in
    	the nude that I can watch.  The last time that I went to Moonstone
    	Beach, there was no one else there for three or four hours!  I
    	loved it!  I had the whole place to myself for that time and I
    	could go where I wanted on the beach unhampered by clothing.
    	I don't go to Moonstone just to see naked people; I could go to
    	anywhere a hell of alot closer for that, and it'd probably be
    	cheaper, too. 
    
    	There have been several times at the same beach where it was a bit
    	cool (foggy or cloudy) where no one showed up for a long time.  I
        stayed there anyways, because I was there for myself.  If others
    	showed up, okay, it was nice, but it wasn't necessary.  I could
    	dispense with the clothes and enjoy the peace and quiet; anyways, 
    	I usually take naps while lying under the sun and working on my
    	tan.  Kinda hard to watch people while I'm asleep.
    
    	It is a long drive to Moonstone but it's worth it to enjoy the
    	freedom of the beach.  As long as *I* can enjoy the
        clothing-optional status of the beach, I'll continue to go there.
    	I'll go elsewhere if that status changes.
    
    	Ben

    I'm afraid I'm with Ben on this one.  I much more prefer secluded
    spots in the woods to organized or very popular settings.  
    
    Trying to answer the question as put, I'd have to say it depends
    a great deal on the relative comfort of those hypothetical glue-on
    thongs.  I'd much rather wear a towel or a pair of loose gym shorts
    than wear a confining, constricting thong.  (Anyone know how to
    make loincloths or grass skirts/kilts?)
    
       Gary

Nice question (.0).  I suspect that if we really want to understand our 
motivations as naturists, this sort of introspective experiment is just 
about  the only way to accomplish it.

However, like Ben, I'm afraid that this particular experiment is flawed, because
what it really comes down to is, "Would you bother to go to a nude beach if it
wasn't really a nude beach?"  Of course my  answer is no; but what does that
really tell me, other than that I like going to nude beaches?

I'd like to suggest an alternative experiment:

	Suppose that you could go to one of two beaches.  Beach A is a real
	clothing-optional beach, and most of the people there will be nude
	(so you can see all you like), but (for whatever reason you can dream
	up) *you* will have to wear a bathing suit there.  (There are enough
	other clothed people that you won't feel conspicuous being non-nude.)

	Beach B is totally isolated.  You are completely free to be nude; but
	you won't see another person there.

	Which beach do you go to?

I think that if you really try to imagine yourself facing this choice, you will
get some insight into the extent to which you are a naturist because you like
being nude yourself, and the extent to which you are a naturist because you
like seeing other people nude.

	-Neil

Now to answer the questions.

On the original question (.0), no, I wouldn't drive to a nude beach if it 
suddenly had a dress code.  But what can I conclude from that?

Like other respondents here, I take the opportunity to be nude when possible,
and much of the time (such as around home or at small swimming spots) that 
means that I am alone (or just with family).  My reflections on my own
question (.4) tell me that the opportunity to be nude is more important 
to me than the opportunity to see others nude.

But it isn't a simple either-or question.  I do enjoy social clothing-optional
settings (nude beaches and nudist camps), and would regrest losing them.  So
what is the motivation there?

Partly, as I've described before, it's that I know perfectly well that nudism
is on the fringes of our culture.  Being nude gives me a feeling of freedom, 
at least in part, because it is a declaration of  independence from various
irrational social proscriptions.

Social nudity, then, both enhances this (if being nude in my own house is
culturally questionable, then what about being nude around a hundred other
nude people), and validates it (I'm nude around those hundred other poeple,
and not only don't they mind, but they're nude too).

But of course, leaving it at that would be dishonest.  Because the fact is, 
I enjoy seeing other people (especially women) nude.

We could get into a lengthy (and probably unproductive) discussion about how 
much of this enjoyment is biologically "built in" and how much of it is 
conditioned by upbringing.  I don't doubt that there is plenty of sublimated 
sexuality in naturism.  I don't doubt that much of the reason I like seeing
other people's bodies has ultimately to do with sexual interest, even though
I have never felt a conscious sexual interest in a person (other than my wife)
that I've seen at a nude beach.

But enough of that.  I suspect that this sort of speculation can get stale 
pretty quickly.  

	-Neil

     At the risk of extending a stale conversation...

    I like to feel nude. 

    Seeing others (or myself) is not much of a motivator.

    - gerry

Oh dear, I didn't mean to squash the discussion.

When I spoke of the discussion getting stale, I was thinking of my own
meanderings (where I felt myself gradually sinking into incoherency), not
this discussion as a whole, which I think is an interesting one.

Sorry.

	-Neil

    A question like this (RE: .0) sounds like it's looking for the secret
    ulterior motives that naturists have for going to nude places; I
    believe that people generally go to those kind of places for the
    obvious reasons: they like to go nude in the sun and open air.
    
    Sure, they'll look if there are other people around.  I get as
    interested as the next person if there are nude bodies around but 
    they are just a side attraction to the real reason that I go to
    a nuding place like Moonstone or Solair.  I've been to both places
    during the week when no one else was around, and I still enjoyed
    the time I spent there.  If there are other nude people around, it
    just means that it's probably safe to be nuding there.
    
    
    B.
    

Allow me to add my .02 worth here.  Back in the late 70's there was a CO
lake just 8 miles out of the town of Boulder Co. were I lived at the time.
It was very nice, I was a hard core naturist and I would have never thought
to go anywhere else.  Time passes  and the lake gets so popular the city 
starts charging admission, supplying lifeguards, and porta johns.  But 
banning booze and pot.  The lake was still CO but the people who went changed.
It went from families and a 3 to 1 male/female ratio.  To 50 to 1 male/female,
the males were mostly nude to their credit, but most of my friends stopped
going and so did I.  I then joined Valley View ( a 4 hour drive each way ) 
I spent most of my time solo nude hiking and soaking in the springs.  
After two years of this I decided to stop going because of the long drive, 
the cooling of the hot springs, and the difficulty of making friends there 
( you rarely saw most people more then twice a year, many only once).  
I ended up spending my weekends at the mobile home park pool where I had many
friends.  I considered this better then an eight min. drive to a CO lake
that had gone bad.
Time passes, I move to AZ. I join the local nudist resort as a single male
(no problem the resort is owned by two gay men).  The resort was a happening
place with a good balance of single men/women and families.  ( the pop. was
95% straight ).  Unfortunately the owners ran it into bankruptcy.  It was 
bought out by an older couple who swore that they would turn it into a 
god fearing, ASA family resort with a locked gate!  The singles left in mass.
The younger families left in mass.  The average age went up 15 years, last
I looked the average age was 50.  Now a days I just solo nude in my back
yard, sometimes I'am joined by a sister sometimes by a girl friend.
What it comes down to for me is, I know what a women looks like, to get me
out of my back yard it takes a congenial group of interesting single people 
around my own age to interact with.  Clothed or unclothed otherwise I am 
happier in my back yard.


                                               Paul
    

    re .10:
    
    Thanks, very revealing. I hope nobody minds my saying this, but I find
    it interesting that while one of the supposed ideals behind naturism is
    that clothes or more specifically lack of clothes do not make the
    individual, so often the discussion focusses on the differences between
    naturists and non-naturists. I guess the point you brought out best is
    that the difference is superficial. ( big question mark inserted here )
    
    Oh no, casting aside all those years of social behavioral conditioning
    is not an easy task, my friends. You have to think up answers to all
    those questions you KNOW people are going to ask. People may ask
    questions, but they are not interested in the answers. They want to
    know, " Are you alright? ".
    
    Does naturism help you in some way? If clothing really doesn't make a
    difference, then what's the difference?
    
    The difference for me is this:
    
    I like to watch nude people. I like the feeling of being nude. There is
    nothing wrong with the fact that I might even like to see what YOU look
    like in the nude. I'll lose interest in nude bodies when I'm dead and
    gone. Is the motivation sexual? Yes. Does this mean I want to have sex
    with you? Probably not. I've simply had it up to here ( pointing to
    neck ) with repressed sexuality. I'm sick of the scum who cash in on
    it.
    
    Damn, I like naturism, but I won't do it if I can't be NORMAL.
    
    So, while I look at your nakedness, I may have sexual thoughts and
    feelings, but don't expect much in terms of sexual intent. Being nude
    and watching nude people can be complicated enough as it is. Oh, how I
    wish it were simple.
    
    Sometimes it feels like a game.
    
    						John.

    I will not go out of my way to go to a nude beach, or a CO beach, or a
    club. If the beach I happen to go to is nude or CO fine, if not then so
    what. I just happen to feel more comfortable with no clothes on. At
    home I am nearly always nude. Depending on who comes over I may or may
    not get dressed, they may or may not get undressed. What I/we are/are
    not wearing means nothing, who I'm with and what we are doing is what
    makes for a good time. I have actually been uncomfortable when I've been
    nude and people I had been with while nude the weekend before were clothed.
    ( They were dressed to go out for the evening and decided to wait in my
    apartment for their ride since I lived in a ground floor and they were
    upstairs.) I like to look at women's bodies because they are sensual,
    even the klutzes 8*). I compare myself to men and either gloat or groan as 
    the case warrants. I may even have sexual thoughts (gasp) about women BUT
    that doesn't mean I'm a pervert. (or does it?)

    Like I said in another note -- it not simply the fact of being nude for
    nudity sake but the situation, location, company, that count. cloth or
    skin is really secondary.

        
    I really feel that many (most?) regular nudists have similar
    sexual emotions as clothed folks. This means there is great
    variation.

    Why would it be ok to be stimulated by a gal in a fluffy square
    dance outfit or swimsuit but not when she is nude? Being
    stimulated is very different than taking (or even wishing to
    take) a sexual action.

    Where I have been, most folks are first very aware of
    stimulation and are concerned about it. As they gain experience
    they usually lower their awareness to the nudity and behave much
    as they would at a square dance or at the beach. This means that
    there is great variation.

    - gerry

    I'll go far out of my way to be where nude people are. It really
    the issue of social nudity that interests me here. As far as private
    nudity is concerned, it's only a matter of whether I am clothed
    or not to begin with. If I'm nude, I'll stay nude. If I'm clothed,
    I'll stay clothed. It's more a matter of bothering to go from one
    state to the other.
    
    If there's a gathering of nude people, I'll go out of my way to
    join them. It's really the social experience of nudity that I enjoy.
    It makes a big difference to me. It's more of a sharing experience
    for me. There's an atmosphere of caring that's hard to come by in
    other situations. It's OK to look! Here's a chance to see part of
    what life is all about! I feel closer to people I've been with nude.
    
    I guess what I'm saying is that most of the pleasure I receive from
    naturism isn't just the sensation of being nude, but the way in
    which I feel constructive relationships being built with others.
    A silent agreement that sense denial and deprival is foolish and
    unnecessary. More is said with a casual smile than can be expressed
    in volumes of notes files. I'm getting in tune with other people.
    The artificial boundaries we have been instructed to build between
    ourselves and others fade and dissolve and suddenly one feels young
    again.
    
    It's the washing away of social barriers that attracts me most to
    naturism. It's a trust not of laws or social taboos, but of goodness
    within human nature that makes the experience wirthwhile, no matter
    how far I have to go out of my way to find it.
    
    The reason I emphasized sex so much in my previous reply is that
    this is an area in which society as a whole tends to erect the most
    pervasive barriers. 
    
    In this way, I feel that naturists may be fundamentally different
    from other people. People may correct me if I'm wrong, maybe I speak
    only for myself, but a great many people feel safer with boundaries,
    while others feel safer without them. I realize it's a metter of
    degree here so perhaps I'm oversimplifying, but I think naturist
    tend to feel safer without barriers and cherish their freedom to
    a greater extent than others.
    
    I realize I may have opened a huge bag of worms, so feel free to
    comment.
    						John.