Conference moira::naturism

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This was moved from the discussion on beaches in Ontario (141).  You may need 
to read 141.0 to get the full picture, as with the other notes I've moved under
this topic.

Judy
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GUCCI::BENSON                                        16 lines  28-FEB-1989 18:04
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    Dave,
    
    I surely support more beaches ... anywhere, anytime.
    
    But let's leave the late Mr. Heinlein out of this.  It's a well
    known fact that the old gentleman really lost it in his later years
    ... maybe as will all of us.  I remember his best stories when I
    was young -- Door into Summer, Earth is a Harsh Mistress, Starship
    Trooper ... lots of references into the SF Conference.  A pervert,
    perhaps ... a nudist, no.
    
    Keep up the good NCN work :-)
    
    Best,
    Jay
    

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TOKLAS::FELDMAN "PDS, our next success"               4 lines  28-FEB-1989 19:30
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    Not to dig this rat hole any deeper, but that's "The Moon is a Harsh
    Mistress."
    
        Gary

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AUSSIE::BELL "Peter L. Bell"                          8 lines   1-MAR-1989 04:24
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    Re .1
    
    In "Door into Summer" the hero lands in a Nudist Camp, has a number of
    positive thinks to say about the experience, and returns regularly.
    
    Perhaps Mr. Heinlein is/was a naturist.

Peter.

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KAOFS::D_BIGELOW "Life's a beach!"                   12 lines   1-MAR-1989 08:16
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    RE: .1
    
    	Remember, I didn't write the article.  It came from the
    FCN publication.  I don't even know who Mr. Heinlein is / was !
    Should I ?
    
    	I think any mention of Mr. Heinlein in conincidental, and 
    irrelevant, since the article was only making the point that 
    Ontario needs more free beaches.  (And I strongly agree!)
    
    Darrell
    

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CTC004::WONG "Le Chinois Fou"                         8 lines   1-MAR-1989 15:54
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    I think that the author, Piers Anthony, also has this thing for
    nudity...for example, there's his Adept series of novels (a "trilogy"
    with 5 books out so far).
    
    ...but we're getting off the main topic of discussion...
    
    b.
    

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HSSWS1::GREG "The Texas Chainsaw"                    13 lines   2-MAR-1989 00:16
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    re: .5
    
    	   Not too long ago I read "JOB: A Comedy Of Justice" by our
    	man Heinlein.  I do recall one scene where the two main
    	characters were, um, engrossed in being together (if you take
    	my meaning) when time flipped out, leving them in another
    	parallel universe... naked.
    
    	   Apart from that, I don't recall any overt references to
    	nudity.  But then, it's been over a year since I read the
    	book.  Perhaps my memory is faulty.
    
    	- Greg

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CAADC::COOLEY                                        14 lines   2-MAR-1989 12:14
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    I'm currently reading "The Cat Who Walked Through Walls" by R.A.H.
    It's set in several alternate universes and times. In general,
    characters appear to the narrator (first person experience type
    writing style) in various states of (un)dress. He observes that
    "People in this universe seem quite casual about dressing (or not)."
    This is common in many Heinlein books - one might speculate that
    R.A.H. was either wishful-thinking about an idealized state of affairs
    or trying to be titilating. I sincerely doubt the latter, as he
    always "fades out" when any overt sex is about to occur in his novels.
    He acknowledges it as a fact of life - a terrific fact of life -
    but doesn't pander or use gratuitous detail. So maybe R.A.H. was
    a naturist at heart.
    Don Cooley
    

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GENRAL::KILGORE "We are the People, Earth & Stars"    7 lines   3-MAR-1989 11:05
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I think I may be showing my age on this one!  My husband informed me last 
night that Heinlein even lived in Colorado Springs!  Shows you how much I
know, huh?  Bob thinks also, Heinlien died recently.  Bob used to read his
books while in Junior High.

Judy (red-faced)
in Colorado Springs, CO

    Judy, a typical Heinlein comeback would be to ask you if your face
    is all that's red, etc, etc. 
    
    If you're showing your age by not knowing R.A.H., then it's extreme
    youth! He was one of the pioneers of science fiction 'way back in
    the thirties. Yes, he did die within the last year or so.
    
    And yes, this could certainly be considered a rathole! But then,
    R.A.H. liked ratholes, and he liked nudity, and he'd have particularly
    wanted to harrass you about your pink cheeks. And the one reason
    not to condemn this subject to the oblivion of being off the subject
    is that the "free spirit" attitude apparent among some of the
    participants here is so prevalent in his books. He's got a healthy
    appreciation for sex, opposite sexes, bodies, etc, along with a
    distinct lack of sexism or salaciousness. Seems kinda like the
    ideal state people are wistfully imagining: Oh if we could just
    relax and enjoy ourselves without somebody thinking we're up to 
    something and calling the cops over "indecency" and branding us
    perverts!
    
    BTW, one of Heinlein's later works (I forget the title) was based
    on a situation in which a rich old man had his brain transplanted
    after his death. Turns out his brain was transplanted into the body
    of an attractive young woman, and both personalities were present.
    Quite an interesting examination of what "ogling" is from two
    perspectives (as well as many other male/female relationship issues)
    I think there was a movie a few years
    back whose plot was a rip-off of this book. The Heinlein book is
    interesting, thoughtful reading (also entertaining); the movie was 
    (I thought) trash.
    
    along with a distinct
    lack of  

    re: .10
    
    While Heinlein does give his female characters a great deal of
    competance, and doesn't lock them into stereotypical occupational
    roles, he nevertheless tends tends to subordinate them to male
    characters.  His later novels, especially, tend to portray women
    as being incapable of resisting the sexual advances of his male
    protagonists.  In other words, he still treats women as sex objects.
    Among my friends in science fiction fandom, Heinlein's writings
    are still considered sexist, albeit a different form.
    
       Gary

    re: .10
    
	I think that was _I_Shall_Fear_No_Evil_.  

    re: .12

	It's true that Heinlein had some sexism, but remember
	the man was born at the end of the last century.  For
	his time he was extremely liberal about equality between
	the sexes.  

	I've read most of his books, mostly when I was in grade
	school but some more recently.  He has two types of books,
	one group geared towards teenagers, the other geared towards
	adults (based on the age of the heros and heroines).

	Aside from having shades of sexism left over from a past
	era, he also is somewhat militeristic and at times can seem
	frightfully concervative.  But I really enjoyed almost all
	of his books.  His last (as far as I know), _To_Sail_Beyond_
	the_Sunset_ was perhaps one of his best as far as I am 
	concerned.

	I'm writing about him because, despite the fact that I 
	don't agree with him on many things, I credit him with
	much of my own attitude about nudity, sex, and sexual
	equality.  I read most of his books when I was forming
	my opinions on these subjects, and if there's one thing
	I can say in his behalf, he encouraged having the strength
	to dissent from popular opinion.

	While many of the books I read at that time (mostly 
	science fiction, I confess) dealt with blasting aliens
	out of the sky, Heinlein was a voice of intelligence that
	I could respect and learn from.

	If you know someone at that age who enjoys Heinlein, 
	don't discourage them!

    Having read all of R.A.H's works over the course of almost 3 decades,
    I have to agree with the previous note that he did influence my
    own attitudes towards sex and nudity. His best work to my mind was
    Time Enough For Love..in which his character Lazarus is brought
    together from the previous Childhoods End series. There is no doubt
    that he ended up (yes he did die) what we would call a dirty old
    man. I can only hope that I maintain the same zeal for life and
    loving that he did , for as long as he did. A truly great literary
    figure. I will be fond of him always....Did you know he graduated
    from Annapolis???

    Somewhere in the deep recesses of mah memory, I recall, in the bio
    section of one of RAH's books, ol' RAH was, prior to becoming an
    author, a fellow employee of-- none other than-- Digital Equipment
    Corporation.  Well, RIP RAH!
    
    Jim

Indeed?  I certainly recall reading that about another S-F author, James P.
Hogan.  Nice hard science.  I seem to recall him mentioning a future PDP-nnnnn
where nnnnn was BIG.

Just a tangent.

    Re: Heinlein
    
    RAH was writing in the '30's so he wasn't employed by DEC before
    he started writing, for sure. He was an author full-time from the
    late-fifties/early-sixties on. I believe your information is incorrect.
    Do you have any idea where you may have read it? 
    
    Tamzen

    Shoot! It was Hogan.  Sorry for the excitement!!!!!!!
    
    Jim