Conference moira::naturism

    I can't speak for everyone, but here goes . . .
    
    I think it's an overreaction to the myth that people who enjoy nudity
    are morally depraved. I personally feel that nothing could be further
    from the truth. While you complain that some of the overtones, you
    are free to wear clothes whenever you like. The converse can not
    be said to be true, and this is because most people who want to
    wear clothes do not have as enlightened an opinion as yourself.
    
    The burden definitely rests on the naturists. This would seem to
    require that the naturist have a mature outlook. We're not asking
    anyone to take off their clothes, only to accept that some might
    want to, and that they should be entitled to. We want to be thought
    of as normal people, not some kind of spectacle.
    
    The hardest thing to break is the myth that we are some kind of
    sexual group, like homo or bisexuals. What we do has nothing to
    do with sex. If we can break this myth in just one person, then
    society has grown up a little bit.
    
    All we want is a little acceptance, and that if society can not
    stand to see us having fun, that they at least give us a little
    room to do it in. We can call ourselves naturists, and as a class
    act to protect our rights. Who is the government to declare whether
    we learned to become naturists or were simply born that way? Who
    is to say that making us wear clothes at the beach isn't cruel and
    unusual punishment?
    
    AND, FRANKLY, I suspect more naturists are more mature when it comes
    to nudity because they have thought about it. It's the lack of
    consideration and the blind acceptance of myth that is our greatest
    obstacle. I hope this doesn't offend you, as you seem to have thought
    about it, UNLIKE the majority.
    
    							John.

    Hi Mike,
    
    I'm new to this conference, so I not be the best one to reply to
    this, but your comments interest me and so I want to put in my $0.02.
    
    I'm interested, because, like you I've been reading along (I've
    replied a couple of times), and I've noticed that same tendency
    that you described in .0.  Unlike you, I've warmed to it, mostly
    because it's nice to hear someone say (to me), "You're not the one
    who's screwed up, they are!"
    
    Now, noone in this conference has said THAT, and I don't want to
    imply that I think that the above quote is true.  I'm just trying
    to express my reaction to this conference using that wonderful tool,
    hindsight.
    
    Truly, I'm not screwed up (I'm a nice guy, *really*), but I shouldn't
    need to do any *others* bashing to prove to myself that that is
    the case.  I don't know the intent of the authors that gave that
    impression, but I know I saw it and *liked* it.  And I appreciate
    your bringing it to my attention.
    
    I've noticed similar tendencies in lots of minority group discussions,
    and I'm glad to see that I'm not so different after all ;-).
    
    But, in the end, I hope you don't take it too much to heart.  Most
    of these people are probably reacting to people who may not so open
    as yourself.  I know I have had plenty of run-ins with people who
    DO think that those who want to "run around naked" are somehow deranged
    people.
    
    Kb

    		(To clear up...)
    
       	I didn't realize that my viewpoint was very special; therefore
    I guess I may have sounded a little harsh.  But now come to think
    of it, yeah Mike, wake up, some people are very closed (clothesed!)
    minded indeed!  The Mediator (wow) wrote to me about this entry
    and I wrote back saying, in effect, that I support any and all efforts
    to progress humanity in general.  I now realize the type of stupidity
    you are used to dealing with, and also that I am not a part of it.
    I guess all I wanted to stress (friendly stress!) is that I don't
    have to take my clothes off to believe in the good of mankind and
    how special we all are, and also just because I keep them on doesn't
    mean I am prude or have problems in dealing with the human body
    as it is, and remains, pure.  I guess the only reason I am not a
    naturalist or nudist now is because I don't want the pressure and
    society's condemnation for it.  Besides, they always say it's the
    thought that counts.  Anyway, interesting subject...
    
    				Mike Bell

    Familiar theme: While society speaks out against (IT), we all secretly
    hope that (IT) wins. While I can not demand perfection in people,
    I wonder how many are letting me take the risk for them. I mean,
    it's nice to be cool and detached and all that, but when you're
    involved you sometimes have to take a stand on the issues. I guess
    I hold a little contempt for the people I stick my neck out for.
    
    However, as I said, people are not perfect, and often lack the courage
    to represent themselves. A weakness, perhaps, but hardly worthy
    of condemnation. I wish others would get more involved, but that's
    all I can do, wish. Therefore, knowing full well that I can not
    get people to comply with my wishes, I consign my wishes to fantasy
    and ideals and hope that we may collectively find greater strength
    in the future.
    
    I, therefore, officially agree with the open participation policy,
    that nudity is completely optional with no requirements whatsoever,
    while secretly I wish that more people would do it. Maybe that is
    why you said you got an "impression", rather than specifying any
    particular statement. Not only that, but I wish more people would
    be outspoken about it. It would be unfair of me, however, to evaluate
    their situation, so one can only hope they're doing the best under
    the circumstances.
    
    It still annoys me when it becomes a spectacle, but I suppose that
    is something we'll just have to overcome through subtle means, one
    case at a time. In the meantime, I know that it is the spectacular
    nature of nudism, if anything, that closes us down, and I know what
    the authorities will cry out if a situation develops that we can't
    handle.
    
    Who knows, after having nudity sold to us ( at enormous profits )
    for so long, maybe people are ready to take it back. I hope so,
    but we'll see.
    						John.

Hi Mike:

	Welcome to our humble little conference.

	It's nice to hear the views expressed by a non-nudist every
now and then, and I think your views are welcome here.  It's nice
to hear that we can be considered normal and actually intelligent
people !

	So, we both can have just as much fun, doing the same sorts
of things, only you do it with your clothes on, and we do it with our
clothes off.  I think the conclusion we could quickly come to is;
if we respect each other for our differences, and don't force or impose
our personal beliefs down each others' throat, then we'll all get along
just fine !

	North American Society is extremely behind the times when it comes
to acceptance of the human body.  Just take a quick look at Holland, Sweden,
France, Austrailia, and especially Germany, among others, and it's easy to
see why their sexually related crime rates are much, much lower than ours.  
I believe that their ability to legally and publicly undress, leaves nothing
to the imagination of a potential sexually deranged and emotionally unstable
person.

	I could go on an on, but I think I'll save it for another time.
Anyways, I'm sure you get the drift .

Regards,

Darrell

    We all seem to play with words and react to words...
    
    I would truly love a cloths-optional world, a politics optional
    world, a ... optional world. That is to say, a world where
    a individual is free to live in comfort as that individual
    sees it.
    
    Often nudists like to describe their activities as clothes
   -optional when it is not really the case.  A person MUST be
    nude to be welcome. Few organized nude camps will allow clothes,
    as a result whole families are barred because one member
    requires textiles to be comfortable.
    
    There are places in the world that are making progress toward
    such an attitude.  The US is not very far along from a nudist's
   /naturist's perspective.
    
    - gerry

    RE: .4
    
    	I can understand that all people have an opinion and that must
    be respected always (!), but "sticking your neck out" sounds a bit
    more like a revolution to me than a philosophy or way of life. 
    For me to lead a happy life I have to be as mentally "mature" or
    progressed as I can, whatever that means.  And I enjoy company,
    friends, who are the same way.  If you must (or want to) take your
    clothes off to feel that way, great!  The end justifies the means.
    But I'm looking at the finished product and have no need to "revolt"
    to make me happy, because as far as I'm concerned I could wear two
    hundred pounds of clothes and still be *myself*.
    
    RE: .5
    	
    	Exactly!  I am in total concord.  After all, that's what naturism
    breeds, is acceptance and togetherness.  (At least I think it should
    and does).
    
    RE: .6
    
    	That's a very good idea.  Unfortunately I don't think we're
    gonna get there too fast.
    
    
    	Here's another idea:  What if naturalists (YOU) lived at the
    North Pole.  How would you survive in the cold if you took your
    clothes off?  Well, you could have special "nudist igloos" that
    were warm enough...  Or if by some chance we were on a planet covered
    by glass shards.  What then?  The point I'm making is that I think
    it's more of a mental advance than anything tangible.  I think you're
    using something physical to better yourselves spiritually.  Which
    is not bad at all!  Like I said, the end justifies the means.  So
    which ever way, go for it!  We sure need more intelligent, HUMAN
    human beings in this world.
    
    				Mike Bell

>>	So, we both can have just as much fun, doing the same sorts
>> of things, only you do it with your clothes on, and we do it with our
>> clothes off.  I think the conclusion we could quickly come to is;
>> if we respect each other for our differences, and don't force or impose
>> our personal beliefs down each others' throat, then we'll all get along
>> just fine !

Darrell, well said!  Thanks!  The word "respect" is a good choice.  It's
more positive than "tolerate" which could have been used instead.  Respect 
is condusive to mutual understanding.  To me, tolerate means everyone gives 
in a little, which (to me) means everyone loses.  Bummer!

I enjoy wearing clothes and I also enjoy NOT wearing clothes.  I prefer
the environment that is true clothes-optional...one that I don't necessarily
have to be naked in, unless I so choose.  

I do not feel any "better" because I have chosen to be nude and someone else 
remains clothed.  That is their/my choice and we are free to make them.  Just 
wish we had more places to have this freedom tho...

Judy

    I guess one of the points I was making was that some amount of
    organized effort is required if the naturist is going to break the
    myths associated with nudity and the catch-22 situation resulting
    from it.
    
    Nudity can be a spectacle because it is so rare, nudity is rare
    because in many places it is illegal, and it is illegal because
    it causes a spectacle. There is already a force that intends to
    make sure things remain this way, and swallow up the rest of the
    sights where nudity is allowed. If the freedom to be nude is not
    excersized, it might as well not exist at all. As I said earlier,
    my official opinion is that nudity should be completely optional,
    after all, forced nudity is hardly a freedom at all. However, I
    would hope that those who believe in this freedom would be more
    outspoken about it ( and perhaps excersize it ).
    
    In short, I would like to encourage naturists/nudists to come out
    of their closets, to present themselves as a valid segment of society,
    so that the issues involved can be dealt with rationally, and not
    with myths, secrecy, and fear. Without focussed effort, the
    breakthrough is not likely to happen.
    
    I wouldn't have wanted to make it a political issue, but seeing
    as I can be arrested and detained for merely shedding my clothing,
    the political confrontation is unavoidable. It's a two fold knowledge,
    having the ideal, and having the knowledge of what it takes to secure
    that ideal. Nudity for me isn't demanded at nude beaches, it is
    respectfully requested.
    
    							John.