Conference moira::naturism

    I have stumbled across such experiences a few times at
    Moonstone and a very few times at our camp. It doesn't seem
    too difficult to sort out perverts from non-perverts.  Perverts
    don't last long at private camps (at least the ones I have
    been at.)                                            
    
    It seems to be very rare (at least if one chooses where he
    sleeps) and has not been viewed as perverted at  our camp.
    The few times it has occurred it has been considered natural
    although some embarrassment usually occurs,  it is almost
    always brushed off with a little humor.
    
    - gerry

    RE: .2 and .3
    
    Being a long time naturist/nudist (and also the father of a teenage
    girl), I would like to distinguish between "Natural" and "appropriate."
    
    I agree that erections sometimes "happen," and that they are a natural
    phenomenon.  But in the context of public nudity they are totally
    inappropriate.  Public nudity is not a Sexual experience.  When
    a man decides to take a nap nude, in an area of public nudity, he
    should sleep on his stomach, or cover himself with a towel.  The
    reason for this is obvious.  It would be easy for a pervert
    (exhibitionist, pedophile, etc.) to fake sleep just to get his jollies
    by exposing his erection.  Perverts are neither desired nor tolerated
    by true nudists or naturists.
    
    As nudists/naturists, we have an obligation to the rest of the world
    and to each other.  We must therefore show absolute concern for
    the comfort and well-being of non-nudists, children, and each other
    when publicly nude.
    
    (Now if someone will bring me a ladder, I'll get down off my soapbox!)
    ;')
    
    Have a great weekend!
    
    Jack

    RE: .4
      
          Something about that bothers me.  It is like saying that all
    erections are sexual (when they could be a result of friction or
    a full bladder, e.g.)  Since a sexual response in some women is
    "extra lubrication", should a woman who leaves a "spot" be asked
    to leave because that would indicate a sexual response?  You see,
    it isn't fair to judge in this manner.  What you are basically saying
    is that nudists should clothe themselves *just in case* a sexual
    response is *possible.*  That pretty much ends the freedom of nudity,
    doesn't it?  
          BEHAVIORS, on the other hand, are something else.  
    
          Recently I was with a bunch of people around a dozen horses
    when one of the young male horses had an erection.  Though it may
    or may not have been embarassing, there was no indication of sexuality
    on the part of the horse, i.e., it didn't behave sexually.
          The point is that if you really want to accept "nature", then
    you have to accept erections and wet spots.  If the behavior indicates
    something else, then you can act accordingly.
    
    
    Frederick
    

    I agree with Frederick on this issue.  It's overt behavior that
    counts a lot more than a physical reaction (especially during sleep).
    
    According to .4, if a man falls asleep while sunbathing, gets a
    full bladder and a resulting erection, he should be asked to leave.
    His alternative is to "cover himself with a towel".  He could just
    cover himself with a bathing suit and sunbathe anywhere.
    
    Another sexual response in women is erect nipples.  This can be a
    result of a number of other things as well (friction, recent removal of
    clothing, cold, etc.)  What if a woman gets erect nipples for whatever
    reason?  Mark her as a pervert too? 
    
    A recent article in CWTS covered the issue of devices given to impotent
    men to allow them to have intercourse.  An effect of this is to
    have them semi-erect at all times.  It seemed to encourage people
    not to feel embarassed or offended if you run accross one of these
    men.
    
    If people have to be on *that* much of a guard, you have less freedom
    in a naturist environment than in an ordinary environment.
    
    Elizabeth                           

    RE: .5, .6 and .7
    
    I wish you would all read my response (.4) AGAIN.  (For the First
    time??) 
    
    I did not suggest that a person who inadvertantly gets an erection
    while sleeping be thrown out of camp.  I also never said that erections
    are Sexual Only.  I only said that in the context of a nudist
    environment, where there is a great concern over the possibility
    of perverts getting in and molesting members (especially children),
    that men who frequently have an erection are suspect at best.  Many
    camps do not permit single men AT ALL!
    
    And I am sure all psycologists/social scientists, etc. will confirm
    that it is not Typically the woman with erect nipples who is molesting,
    raping, etc. - It is the man with the erection!
    
    Sorry, but I won't back down on my original response.
    
    I will be at Solair this weekend, and will bring up the subject
    (and Only the subject ;^} ) with the membership chairman.  I will
    publish my results when I return.
    
    Jack

    This subject has come up a number of times in rec.nude on the
    USENET, too.  You might want to read notes 192.1, .2, & .4; 207.0 &
    .1; 209.0; 223.0; 366.2, .4, & .5; and 376.0 & .1 in MOIRA::REC_NUDE
    (type SELECT or KP7 to add it to your notebook). 
    
    My own opinion?  Well, I would be rather surprised to see an
    erection in a nudist setting.  I'd probably be a little offended,
    too, although I'm not sure why I should.  Covering up with a towel
    to avoid the possibility of embarassment while sleeping seems to be
    going overboard, though. 
    
    Issue 19 (Summer 1986) of _The_Event_ had a pro-and-con pair of
    articles (by Mark Justin of England and Lee Baxandall of The
    Naturist Society) on the subject of erections (specifically in
    photographs in naturist and nudist publications), titled (rather
    cutely) "Raising the Mast" and "Lowering the Boom!"  Just a couple
    of quotes:
    
        In 1986 I can see no more need for embarrassment about a random
        erection at a nudist club than a mother feels when her tiny baby
        boy produces one.  It is a male phenomenon, perfectly natural,
        totally acceptable and remarkably unnoteworthy. 
        
        	- Mark Justin
        
        Erection in an intimate setting is one thing.  In public, among
        strangers, it's precisely what the law describes as "lewd and
        lascivious" behaviour.  It makes visible the arrogant male's
        intent to sexually impress, affront, or otherwise dominate
        others unwilling to have it. 
        
        ...
        
        It's pointless ... to say that erections are a natural
        physiological reaction to a sexually attractive person, and a
        mere fact of biology.  We live in a real society where culture
        modifies biology; and in this society, women are almost
        continually at the mercy of male whims, and erections are a
        quasi-violent assertion of that patriarchal power.
        
        	- Lee Baxandall
    
    And finally, from the editorial response to a letter reacting
    to those articles (in issue 20):
    
        There is no doubt that the penis can be perked up from its
        flaccid resting state by an unwitting incident, stimulating the
        owner's amatory nerve center.  This may be especially true of
        newcomers to naturism after a lifetime of body suppression -- a
        feeling which quickly fades with only minimal acclimation. 
        
        Accordingly, an erection at a naturist site by a newcomer is
        merely the flag of immaturity, brought on by a lifetime of
        conditioning ... 

    ...heh-heh...
    
    Gee,...I'm glad I sleep on my stomach when I go sunbathing! :-):-)
    
    Ben
    

    
    ...Unfortunately, there are those of us with back problems that
    can't/won't/shouldn't sleep on our stomachs.
    
       As to the prior notes, there are bound to be instances where
    a man will become erect without the existance of any agressive,
    sexual motivation. Those noters who seem to think that an erect
    male will tend to attack the nearest female have been hanging
    around with the wrong crowd.
    
       Similarly, those who consider an erect penis to be ugly/grotesque
    or generally something to be hidden away from public view probably
    have more of a psychological problem than the gentleman that is
    being observed. I'll just add that I've seen many female breasts
    which I find repulsive and/or unattractive, but I haven't asked
    the owners to cover up or in any way attempt to limit their right
    to be naked.
    
       And, it seems that some of the previous noters are under the
    impression that only men are capable of rape or making agressive
    sexual advances. Wake up! There are plenty of woman out there that
    are not shy about making their sexual desires known to an unsuspecting
    man, and there have been a number of publicized (sp?) cases where
    a man had been raped by a woman.
    
       Lastly, based on the above, if you suggest that a man who happens
    to have an erection at a nudist facility be asked to cover up or
    leave the grounds, then in all fairness you must likewise ask a
    woman who's nipples are erect, or who is experiencing "excessive
    moisture" be asked to cover up or leave as well (because who knows
    what indecent thoughts are racing through her mind!).
    
    
    Frank
    

Having had various 2c and 2 lira worth can I add my 2d before the door is
finally slammed shut on the subject.

Having attempted to establish some principles on which to base an argument
I now find myself only slightly less confused.

Previously I had unconciously assumed naturists to be at one end of a continuum
of conventions. And at the other extreme were those whose conventions were
total cover. They *do* exist even now; as examples take religious orders. In
between we find a multitude of intermediate conventions of cover or lack of it
- no shorts in the office and no bikinis on the street for example. Strangely,
a few weeks ago I was reminded of a phenomenon which occured at the end of the
60s in London; this was a short-lived fashion for topless evening dresses. On a
television program recalling this period they showed newsclips of a variety of
ladies attending public functions wearing these topless gowns - and it seemed
to be accepted. - Strange things, convention and fashion! 

I suppose I also associate freedom from cover with freedom of thought in
general; in particular a healthy disregard for conventions which seem to
serve no useful purpose and an openness of mind when considering other issues
not concerned with naturism.

However, beyond naturism we still have the taboos connected with the functions
of reproduction/elimination (r/e). It seems we are happy to expose those parts
of the body connected with those functions but are unhappy to see those
parts performing the functions for which they are designed.

I personally share these reservations but I'm not happy about it. It appears
that rather than being at one end of the prude/nude spectrum we as naturists
are somewhere in the middle of another spectrum i.e. prude/nude/lewd (sorry!).
And its this arbitrary positioning which I'm not happy about.

What I'm looking for is some reasonable explanation to legitamise the
convention that publicly displaying functions of r/e is *not* acceptable
but displaying the body parts *is*. Can we, I wonder, come up with any reasons,
anthropological or biological, why we have this discontinuity as soon as
we come to function as opposed to visibility?

puzzled - jim murray
                                                         

    RE: .13
    
    I'm not sure it's right to stereotype naturists in such black &
    white terms.  There are some people who feel completely uninhibited
    about their body and would not mind being nude all the time (sound
    like someone I know?).  At the same time, there are also plenty
    of naturists who might not be so free; they may only be nude in
    private environments.  Some may do so at private campgrounds.  Some
    go nude only at a public beach.  Some people will go nude only if
    there is no one around that they know, while others don't mind who
    sees them in the buff.  
    
    With this variety of attitudes towards clothing comes different
    attitudes towards public displays of bodily functions.  Some people
    (I don't know any) have no qualms about having sex in public. 
    Some naturists spend all day in the nude but then cover up completely
    to go to sleep.  At Solair, I've seen only a few people take a complete
    shower at the outdoor shower but everyone will lie out in the open
    on the beach.  Different attitudes.
    
    I think the important thing is to think of what common level can
    we take naturism and still have everyone feel comfortable.  Naturism
    is not suppose to offend anyone with our nudism.  At a textile beach,
    naturist should not go nude (if the beach is populated) because
    it may offend some people.  At a nude beach, the convention is 
    clothing-optional.  At most naturist resorts, nudity is the standard.
    For the given situation and location, people will do what the existing
    conventions dictate so that others around them will not feel
    uncomfortable.  ALOT of people do not feel comfortable with displays
    of bodily functions in public; therefore, it's not done.
    
    In the future...?...who knows...
    
    Ben
    
    public so the general rule is: don't.

    RE: .12, and as promised previously:
    
    I don't think that because you find someone who agrees with your
    point of view that you can just summarily dismiss an issue.  There
    are many points of view here.  But I would like to present that
    of the Membership Director of the nearest nudist camp to the Greater
    Maynard Area - Solair Recreation League.
    
    B.C., as the membership director, is responsible for deciding who
    is allowed to obtain membership to Solair, even to visit for a day.
    She is a professional psycho-sexual lecturer and therapist, well
    respected in her field.  She is a long-time nudist and naturist,
    and has held her position at Solair for at least 4 years.
    
    During her tenure at Solair, she says she has only had 2 "incidents"
    involving erections.  The first involved a man who paraded back
    and forth in front of 2 young women (who happened to be B.C.'s
    daughters!).  The 2 women immediately told their mother about the
    incident.  B.C. then observed the behavior with her own eyes.  She
    immediately approached the offender, and said "If you can't keep
    it under control, you'll have to leave."  He Immediately lost his
    erection, got into his car, and drove away - never to be seen again
    at Solair.  The second situation was similar.
    
    B.C. said she has seen the unintended, unflaunted erection on rare
    occasion, and it was basically ignored.  (In fact, she said she
    sees more erections on 2-year-old males than on adults!)  
    
    Again, there is no question that an erection is a Natural Thing.
    What is at question is whether or not it is APPROPRIATE in a nudist
    camp/nude beach.  B.C. agrees completely with My stand - it IS NOT
    appropriate!
    
    BTW  - I had a Great weekend at Solair, and look forward to seeing
    some of you Naturist Notes contributors there in the future.
    
    Jack

    I just got back from Moonstone in Rhode Island today.  Near the
    end of the day, some guy showed up in the nude section.  After
    lying down (in the nude) for a while, he ran into the water (EXTREMELY
    cold).  Turns out he had a slight problem that he couldn't control.
    (heh-heh).  He kept running back into the water every few minutes
    in hopes of getting things under control.  It was kinda amusing
    to watch because he was obviously very worried about it.
    
    B.
    

    
    It appears that the issue is that of attitude. the "incident" described
    in .15could probably be described very simply: 
    
    An erection is an erection but a hard on is something else.
    
    

    RE: Past notes
    
     It seems the thing is in the mind of either the "looker at" or
    the "erection bearer". And that can and is as varied as the wind.
    
    I was wondering though, I have not seen much talk about it, but
    what about womens nipples that become hard. Are they asked to leave?
    Must they lay face down until its over? BTW how do you tell if the
    person that has an erection/erect nipples is because of a sexual
    desire or not. Mind Reading? I guess some do voice their plans.
    But I know thats not ALWAYS the case.
    
    Ben
    
    P.S. Judy I Love you openess and straight talk. 

    RE: .18
    
    >I was wondering though, I have not seen much talk about it, but
    >what about womens nipples that become hard. Are they asked to leave?
    >Must they lay face down until its over? BTW how do you tell if the
    >person that has an erection/erect nipples is because of a sexual
    >desire or not.
    
    Gee, just like men, women come in all types. As for me, my nipples
    tend to be erect most of the time. Just like the occasional erection
    in men, IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SEXUAL AROUSAL. It just happens.
    
    I've been at various nude and clothing-optional beached. Occasionally
    you see a man with an erection. I've never seen anyone take much
    notice, neither the man nor those around him. Now these beaches
    have not been in the US, but in the Caribbean. Does that have something
    to do with it? Is this a cultural viewpoint problem?
    
    Tamzen

    re .19
    
    I feel most things in life are influenced by culture.  My
    experiences in New England suggest that erections are somewhat
    embarrassing to the very few folks who get one in public. I
    have never seen it become a problem however.
    
    - gerry

    RE: 19
    
     I know that most of the time that erections weather male or female
    have nothing to do with sex. Sometimes they do and thats only human
    too. But I don't understand why SOME people put others down when
    they don't really know whats going on. If a woman walked up to me
    and her nipples were hard I would first think that she was cold.
    But if she said something like "See what you do to me." Then that
    would change my though pattern.
     It takes all kinds of people to make up this world. I understand
    that. But it could be a lot better world if SOME people did not
    think the worst things first.
    Ben

    Well, I've been "fortunate" enough never to get an erection, but
    if I had, I would hope that I would be shown some tolerance while
    I try to get it under control. Remember, the poor guy is trying
    to flush a lifetime's worth of social conditioning in one sitting.
    People have grown to associate nudity with sexual situations, and
    I have to admit I still do somewhat. You can't demand perfection
    in people. You have to realize that a sex drive, while inappropriate
    in a social setting, is still healthy, and that while this is so,
    sex is always in the back of your mind.
    
    Sitting and thinking about it now ( I have yet to see an erection
    in any of the places I've been ), I think I would notice it, examine
    it for a while, and look somewhere else, maybe look at it a few
    mores times. It's kind of hard to have an opinion about it except
    that perhaps it's interesting. If the guy started masterbating or
    something, that would be pretty gross. I would definitely try to
    make him stop. If he has to relieve himself, go in the woods.
    
    I've seen a couple of people who looked sexually frustrated. Mostly
    they look a little bewildered, one guy was hiding behind a rock
    taking in the view somewhat amazedly. I have nothing against these
    people, and if they get an erection, well, that's life for ya. The
    experience for them may not be overtly sexual ( which it shouldn't
    be ), be it might help them with whatever hangups they might have
    about the human body.
    
    Asking someone to leave because of an erection can only hurt that
    person, because it implies that the erection is wrong. Asking someone
    to leave because of inappropriate behavior is different, because
    you make it clear that it is the behavior that is unacceptable,
    not the person.
    
    Why go to such lengths to be tolerant? To cultivate a healthy attitude
    to towards the human body and the desire to shed clothing. Nudists
    are certainly outnumbered by "normal" folk, and part of nudism is
    the positive statement that everyone should be welcome, that nudism
    is a healthy activity, and that we hope people leave healthier than
    when when they arrived.
    
    						John.

    Well, I finally saw my first erection. Not much to comment on. He
    was with his wife ( I think ) and family poodle. I think it was
    his first experience (his wife kept her clothes on for the duration).
    They seemed like nice people, we talked about the poodle for a while.
    ( poodles, while being somewhat categorized as wimpy paranoid dogs,
    are actually very friendly and DON'T SHED ) I was happy to see that
    he didn't seem to be worried about it, and that he was trying the
    best he could to relax under the circumstances.
    
    I can't say that anyone felt particularly unusual by the event.
    When I first started, I have to admit that I had to go in the water
    a few times whenever I got a "surge". There's nothing like cold
    water to make the genitals shrink back into shape.
    
    I didn't really know how I'd handle this kind of situation, so I'm
    kind of glad I saw it, as I can honestly tell you there's really
    nothing to handle.
    
    						John.

    I feel erections or raised nipples (or whatever) are perfectly normal
    for a healthy human being irrespective of the surroundings. They are
    not always because of sexual feelings. In fact many times I have woken
    up from sleep with an erection. It would be stupid to say that I had 
    some sexy thoughts or a juicy dream during my sleep. This applies to
    secretions (male or female) also.
    
    As long as there is no unwanted personal attack, I think naturists
    should simply ignore erections or raised nipples. You lose the spirit
    of naturism the moment you start imposing rules on behaviour
    (biological or mental) of a person.