Conference moira::naturism

    Well, we're off tomorrow for _ten_ days at Club Orient!  (Can you
    tell I'm psyched!).  We spent 5 days there a few years ago, and
    I hope it hasn't changed.  Last time, we missed the Sygried cruise,
    so we plan to make up for that this time around.  There have been
    numerous reports on Club Orient in CWS, but I'll put in a "trip
    report" when I get back.

    
    Now that's what I call "fun, bearing buns in the sun !"
    
    Have a great time Deb !
    
    					- Darrell -
    (Oh yeah, can I come too ?)
    
    

    
    
    I had the pleasure to visit Orient beach for a few days in December
    and the beach is just as nice as ever. We don't stay at Club Orient
    but would like to some day. We stay at another resort on the Dutch
    side. I like to rent the sailboats there and sail to the various
    islands in the bay.
    
    The area where the T-shirt, and food etc. shacks and public access
    road ends, has been built up more (more shacks). I questioned why
    there is a large pile of pipe laying there and the locals said a
    new hotel is going to be built!!!
    
    If anyone has questions about St. Martin/St. Maarten, I have been
    there a couple of times now and know my way around some. Maybe we
    can share some info.
    
    Bob
    
    

    Well, I'm back from St. Martin (with a tan that's been eliciting
    comments left and right!).  We stayed at Club Orient for 10 days,
    and had a wonderful time!  The restaurant is much better than it
    was 3 yrs. ago, and also the convenience store is much larger now.
    So if you don't want to go "off campus", you really don't have to.
    Sometimes, it's just nice not to have to get dressed all day!  Also,
    we met a number of very friendly people (why does it seem that
    naturists are much more friendly than non-naturists?)
    
    The beach is much more crowded (with day-trippers) than I remember.
    It actually seems that bathing suits vs. no-suits are about 50-50.
    We're not really bothered by fact that more people are wearing suits,
    just that there are more people total.  We went to explore a couple
    of other, less crowded beaches on the French side, which are at
    least topless, and probably nude. (maybe not officially, but nobody
    bothered us).
    
    BUMMER -- We missed the Sygried _again_!.  It crashed into a reef about
    2 weeks ago, and is permanently out of commission.  So no more nude
    cruises.
    
    Anyway, we had a great time soaking up the sun, relaxing, and eating
    a lot of good food! 
    
    

    Are you concerned with just Club Orient or doesn't the rest of St.
    Martin and it's population concern you?
    
    --David

RE: -2

>>    Are you concerned with just Club Orient or doesn't the rest of St.
>>    Martin and it's population concern you?
    
Personally, not as a moderator, I thought the question regarding Club Orient
was a valid one since this is the NATURISM notesfile.  And this is the place
to discuss places we enjoy going to that are nudist or c/o resorts.  If you
find out about Club Orient, you'll more and likely find out about the people
that live there because of the close association between the two.

RE: -1

Thanks for the report.

Judy

 Digital - Puerto Rico employees are OK
	{Livewire, 20-Sep-89}
   Digital employees in Puerto Rico are safe and sound in the wake of 
 Hurricane Hugo, which pounded the northeast coast of the island. The San 
 German plant lost only one day of operation because of the storm. It resumed
 full operations as of Tuesday. The San Juan sales office suffered some damage,
 which is now being assessed.

    Does anyone have any other favorite nude beaches (offical or
    unofficial) in St. Martin other than Club Orient?

    While Baie Orient is the only 'official' CO beach on the island, most
    of the French beaches are unofficial.  You will find Cupecoy mentioned
    several times in this conference as CO.  Also, I have see considerable
    nudity on Baie Long and Baie Rouge, considering that these are very
    long beaches with very few people.
    
    Cupecoy has a very strong undertow, at least in the textile portion. A
    guy I flew down with reappeared a week later with a broken neck, as a
    result of the waves and current at Cupecoy
    
    Baie Orient is probably the most protected beach on the island, as it
    sits inside a large bay with a small island blocking most  of the
    access to the sea, the windward side.  The snorkeling must be great out
    at that island, as I have seen boat loads of people being transported
    from the beach to the island.  The weather prevented me from making the
    trip.
    
    Baie Long and Baie Rouge sit between Cupecoy and Marigot, along a strip
    of very expensive houses.  The results are two fold.  The positive is
    lots of beach and few people.  (I think the hotel at Baie Rouge has
    opened since I was there, so it may be more populated now.)  The
    negative, for me, was machine guns through the window of my car when
    driving between Marigot and Cupecoy one evening.  It seems that the
    rich houses and remote area give rise to theft.  I merely showed my
    U.S. license to the French-only speaking cops and I was on my way with
    their appologies and as much explaination as they could muster in
    English.  
    
    There is another beach between Baie Orient and Dawn Beach to the South.
    It did have about a 3 mile walk to the very remote place, so it was
    probably nude, if anybody was even there.  I have heard that a hotel is
    being or has been built in the area, so access may have improved. You
    might check it our, while in the area.  BTW, all this is on the French
    side of the line.
    
    Topless is very common now, even on the Dutch side.  Only the
    percentage is lower, perhaps 20% instead of 80%.  I have seen full
    nudity at Dawn Beach (Dutch), but it was a brief photo session (husband
    wife and 2 year old) and probably the rare exception.
    
    Whereever you go, enjoy.  Nobody seems to much care what you do, as
    your enjoyment seems to be the main focus of the island.  I love the
    place and plan to return as soon as three kids get through college.
    

       <<< DECENT::SYS$SYSDEVICE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]HOLIDAY_TRAVEL.NOTE;3 >>>
                              -< Holiday Travel >-
================================================================================
Note 620.1          St. Maarten Rental - Oct/Nov $500/700/wk              1 of 1
SAFETY::SEGAL "Len Segal, MLO6-1/U30, 223-7687"       5 lines  21-SEP-1989 11:09
              -< Pelican Still Available & NO Hurricane Damage! >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
     Pelican rentals  are  still  available, and there was NO damage from
     Hurricaine Hugo (I  spoke  with  resort  office  earlier this week).
     Since St.  Maarten  is  only  ~100-200 miles from Puerto Rico, I can
     only credit he lack of damage to "dumb luck".
     

     RE: -.1
     
     After getting MAIL from Neil requesting permission for -.1's posting
     of my Note  from  another  conference,  I  decided  to  come back to
     NATURISM (I've been too  busy to monitor it for many months now :-()
     and see what info existed about Hugo in St. Maarten.
     
     I just got off the phone  with  Pelican  Resort & Casino's US office
     and re-confirmed that Pelican was undamaged by  the  Hurricane.  [We
     own multiple units at Pelican and rent some  of  them  out  and also
     vacation there in May and October/November each year.] They had lost
     electricity and water  from  Hugo,  but both have been restored.  No
     damage  to the structures  (they  were  built  to  withstand  almost
     anything,  I  have  met with  and  talked  with  the  architect  and
     developer numerous times).
     
     The lady I spoke with at Pelican gave me a  general  "ok" to all the
     rest of the island, no specifics.  Although I know nothing  more, my
     gut  feeling  is that the Cupecoy beach,  Baie Rouge, and Baie  Long
     probably suffered  some  erosion, while the beaches in the South and
     East Coast (including Baie Orient) suffered little (if  any) damage.
     At  least we know that the island did not  take  a  direct  hit  and
     suffer major damage.
     
     BTW:  Even though Baie Orient and Le Galion are  well  shielded from
     the  ravages  of  the  ocean  by  large  sandbars,  there  has  been
     considerable erosion by past storms in the last 10 years or so.    I
     was  first at Le Galion (and they kept up the Orient Beach as  well)
     in  1977.    Due  to  a  storm in early 1980's, much of both beaches
     eroded.   I  believe  that Baie Orient lost some 10-20 feet of sandy
     beach, and a  look at the postcards and beach at Le Galion will tell
     the story (the little  thatched  umbrellas  were  some 15 feet or so
     from the waterline, now they are in the water most of the time).
     
     Actually the most damage to  the  CO  beaches  in  St.  Maarten/Ste.
     Martin  are  the  condos going up  alongside  Baie  Orient  and  the
     condos/houses  built  on  top  of the Cupecoy  Beach  (our  favorite
     beach)!!
     

There was an article in the Boston Globe about Club Orient
in last sunday's travel section.  It's nice to see that
nudity is not taboo, at least at distant locations.

This summary is from a usenet message about the article:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Article 937 (1 more) in rec.nude:
From: fad@Think.COM (Franklin Davis)
Subject: In the swim (and in the buff) at a naturist resort on St. Martin
Message-ID: <33211@news.Think.COM>
Date: 23 Jan 90 18:04:11 GMT
Sender: news@Think.COM
Reply-To: fad@Think.COM (Franklin Davis)
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation
Lines: 29

The Boston Sunday Globe Travel section on January 21, 1990 has a long
article about Club Orient, on the French side of St. Martin.  They had
2 photos, too! (from far enough away that you can't see details on the
people).  Very favorable story.  2nd page subtitle "Part Dutch, Part
French, mostly fun,"  3rd page subtitle "Sun's out -- and trunks are off."

A short excerpt:

    When we got to our chalet and suggested a swim, our friends, who
had never been to a clothing-optional resort, opted for bathing suits.
After a short while, the female guest;s top came off, and when we went
for a second dip, their suits were left on our deck railing to dry.

Guests are mostly professionals and their spouses who usually come for
two weeks at a time.  There are few singles.  Half the chalets are
privately owned...  In high season, mid-December to end of April, a
beachfront unit with its full-sized kitchen and separate bedroom rents
for $315 a night for a couple.


For more information, write to Club Orient, 97150 St. Martin, French
West Indies, or phone the North American hotel rep. at 1-800-828-9356
(in NY state 914-733-9596).

--Franklin

  franklin a davis  Thinking Machines Corp. Cambridge, MA 02142   617-876-1111
  <fad@think.com>   {ames, harvard, mit-eddie, uunet}!think!fad
                                Let the four winds blow you safely home!

    This is the first article I've seen that wasn't critical, or slightly
    snickering in their approach.  I'm glad to see that the Globe would
    publish this type of article, but it will also probably increase the
    crowds!  We're planning another trip at the end of April, so we'll see
    how it is in the off-season.
    

     Time for  an  update on Ste.  Martin/St.  Maarten.  Deena and I just
     returned on 13  May.   Since we own timesharing at Pelican we stayed
     there, but we did spend part of two very enjoyable days visiting the
     Wassermans:  Debbie, Gary, and their adorable son  (sorry  his  name
     escapes me) at Club Orient.
     
     Hurricanes  have  interesting  effects on Caribbean islands...  Hugo
     deposited lots  more sand on Orient Beach, improving it greatly.  At
     high tide there is probably  ~25 feet of beach sand (a few years ago
     it was more like 10 feet!)  just  like  it  was  in  1977 (our first
     trip).  Gary told me that he  thought that the beach wasn't as clean
     as it had been during their  previous trips.  [ed:  A lot of people,
     natives and tourists, picnic at the far end of the beach and tend to
     leave their trash in the bushes!!!  gggrrrr] Hugo destroyed the raft
     that everyone liked to  use  as  a  sundeck,  and  Club  Orient  had
     promised to replace it but hasn't as of now.  :-(
     
     Le  Galion,  which  was  the  resort  behind  Club  Orient  has been
     partially razed  (the  idiots  bulldozed  the  restaurant  into  the
     bay!!!!) and they intended to build a 350+ room resort (in the style
     of Club Med, but it is NOT Club Med).  All work has stopped due to a
     pending lawsuit (and they were forced to push the  debris  back onto
     land)...it  seems  that someone came up with a  deed  to  this  land
     (including Club Orient) dating back many centuries and signed by the
     appropriate   King  of  France.    I  heard  from  a  biased,    but
     knowledgeable source  (Patrick, he owns the waterfront activities on
     the beach where  Le  Galion stood.  We've known Pat for 13 years and
     he's been there for  14 years and is involved in the suit.) that the
     holder of this deed wants  all  of  this  land to revert to a public
     park.  It'll be many years  before  it  is  all  resolved,  so we'll
     see...
     
     The  beach above Cupecoy (our favorite CO) also benefited from Hugo.
     Although it  broke  up many of the private coves along the beach, it
     widened the beach  considerably  and  made it so that you can easily
     walk from the beach  in  front of Cupecoy up to the CO section.  The
     two condo buildings that are  being  built  along  these  cliffs are
     still unfinished, so the effects on the CO beach are still unknown.
     
     Although Gary had heard mixed reports  about  the  quality at Mark's
     Place, we did go  there  and  found  the food and service to be very
     good.  [Ironically, we met  another  Club  Orient couple (at Mark's)
     who is a co-worker of a friend of mine in NJ!]
     
     I was told that some topless lady at Pelican was sunning herself and
     swimming at the pool...who knows, maybe we're making progress.

    Has anyone heard any information about Treasure Island and Cupecoy
    Beach Hotels in St. Martin's going Bankrupt?  This is the information
    that I recieved from a Travel agency.  I am not sure if they are trying
    to get out of the fact that they mis-quoted a price and are now trying
    to renege on that price.  The quote was $500 for air, hotel and
    transfers.  This was confirmed over the phone on two occasions.  I then
    cancelled one package that I had previously booked.  Now that they
    realize their mistake, they are getting back to me with all kinds of
    excuses.
    
    Also, what I would like to know is can I force them to honor their
    mistake?  This is American Airlines and they are well aware of this
    issue.
    
    If these hotels are infact going bankrupt, how can American Airlines
    or the hotels still do bookings.
    
    Thanks in advance,
    
    Lonnie
    
    P.S.  Yes, I am aware of insurance to protect such bookings.               
                                         
    
    
    
    

    Hi Lonnie ! (and anyone else that wants this information).
    
    I know your note (.19) was back in June, but with the conference out
    of commission for a while, and me on holidays, and .... well, you
    get the picture.
    
    I have some information for you.  I dug this up recently.
    
    First of all, some general information.  You will probably need a
    passport to go to St. Martin, plus 2 pieces of ID would be handy..
    a birth certificate and your driver's licence. 
    
    Treasure Island Hotel & Casino, has 257 rooms, and consists of both
    the Cupecoy and Treasure Island Resort properties.  It was formally 
    called the Cupecoy Resort, but now the 2 properties which were side
    by side are now one property.  (This information was taken from
    the "Official Hotel & Resort Guide 1989).  
    
    The cost to stay here was quoted to me as, from January 2 to April 2 
    $125 to $180 per night (all monies in US funds), with Junior suites 
    starting at $200 per night.  All meals (and everything else) is extra,
    and add 15% for service charges and another 5% for taxes.  By the way,
    the ONLY credit card they take is AMEX.
    
    There is NO record of this property going bankrupt.  My travel agent
    said she could book me in and probably have confirmation of my booking
    back by the following day.  If you would like to persue this, you may
    get in touch with the General Manager, his address is:
    
    	Mr. Russel Ball
    	Treasure Island Hotel & Casino
    	P.O. Box 14
    	Phillipsburg, Sint Maarten
    	Netherland Antillies
    	Telefax: (609)489-0630
    
    If you want to talk to him in person, then ask the operator for the
    main number for the Island.  Once you get to the Island, his phone
    number is 4297.
    
    That's about all the info I have.  Good-luck.  
    
    Darrell
    

    Hi Darrell, thanks for replying to my note.  I left for St. Martins
    Aug. 3rd and returned Aug. 10th.  I did however, past the Treasure
    Island motel/hotel/resort.  It appeared from looking at the front
    entrance that they were holding some sort of auction.  The building
    looked deserted and there were about 5 or 6 cars parked out side of
    the entrance in the drive way.  
    
    My travel agent said that she had call Treasure Island and this is the
    information that was given to her.  Unless they were closed for the 
    season, I would speculate that they were indeed having problems.
    
    I stayed at Le Pirate in marigot.  It was a very nice room with a 
    kitchenet.  I took the advice of one of the noters and did bring
    along a cooler full of food.  There was absolutely no problem in
    getting the food their safely.  There is a slight restriction on
    the use of dry ice that is packed in the cooler to be stored on the
    plane.  And this is mainly for a large quantity of food being shipped.
    
    The only problems that I encountered was the water in Marigot was
    turned off for some repairs for two straight mornings and turned
    back on late in the evening.  And the other one complete day of
    rain and overcast.
    
    BTW, does anyone know what kind of spare ribs some of these little
    shack were selling.  I guessed that it might be Goat ribs.  I know
    I got addicted them so much until I could tell the difference bet-
    ween the pork ribs or the ? ribs.
    
    Orient Beach is the greatest!!
    
    I hope to plan another trip within 6 mos.  I sure hated to come back
    to a place call Nashua, NH.
    
    Lonnie
       
    
    

    The new phone number for Club Orient is:
    	
    	800-624-8488

    A great thing to do at Club Orient is to take a small boat
    over to the deserted islnds. It costs about $30 round trip to
    be on an island with your SO with you and the goats on a little
    beach. Its only a small motorboat. The guy is friendly and
    is punctual. Be ready when he comes to pick you up.
    
    

       If you do go over to the deserted island (Green Key, I think is the 
    nameo of it) be sure you have a beach umbrella and or some clothes to
    avoid getting sunburned. If you take the boat over and plan to stay
    there for several hours, there is no shade and the sun could be brutal.
    
    
    Paul
    

 Has anyone been to either the Pelican Resort or Club Orient lately?  I'm 
 beginning to plan a trip to some CO place in the Caribbean and would appreciate
 any recent info..



 And the proverbial do they allow single males question.





 Jim

    
    I went to Club Orient as a "day-tripper" for two days in mid-May.
    The whole bay/beach gets very crowded, there are several beach 
    areas all with different names and facilities that ring the bay, 
    with Club Orient being at the far end, of course.  It seems to me 
    I saw several single males, in groups or singly walking up and down
    the beach, all without incident. 
    
    The facilities, I thought, were good; the beaches not uncomfortably 
    crowded and the good thing about Club Orient is that they've got an
    agreement with the other beach areas that motorboats, parasailers,
    etc cannot go into Club Orient's end of the bay, thereby providing
    some protection for the bay itself and somewhat of a quiter, less
    commercial place to sun.  
    
    From what I noticed, total nudity seemed reserved for the Club Orient
    beach, but toplessness was prevalent all along the bay.
    
    Hope this helps...
    
    Sue

    I should  have  written  this Note many months ago, but work has been
    keeping me extremely busy.
    
    We own timesharing  at Pelican Resort & Casino and typically vacation
    in St.  Maarten  in  May  and  October  each  year.   Each pilgrimage
    includes a day trip or two to Orient Beach.
    
    I was very impressed with what I saw (at  Orient  Beach)  this May...
    The raft was finally replaced with a real one (after Hugo there was a
    few  pallets  strapped  to  barrels!).   They built a real activities
    building at  the  far  end  of  the beach.  There appeared to be many
    fewer "boat people" visiting the beach (bussed {sp?} in to "view" the
    "official nude beach").
    
    We met a number of very nice  people  and  spent  a few hours playing
    volleyball  (with numerous swimming breaks).  There was  considerable
    beach to sit on (we've watched it get larger  and  smaller  over  the
    past 15 years).
    
    Orient is now publishing  a  newsletter,  I just got a copy the other
    day (you can request to be placed on the mailing  list, as I did, you
    do not have to stay there to get on the list).    I  spent  some time
    telling  the  folks  in  activities about the origins (well, 15 years
    ago...prior to the resort) of the beach, etc.
    
    We're looking forward to our return  trip to St.  Maarten in October.
    BTW:  If anyone is interested, I usually have some Pelican condos for
    rent each year, send me MAIL.

  Well, I just booked my vacation for a week at Mont Vernon hotel
  (or is it mount vernon) ... either way, it is the closest hotel to
  Club Orient ... It is right on the orient bay beach.   The travel
  agent said that the beach is clothing optional (she called) ..

  Has anyone stayed there?  Seen the place, it sounds great.  It should
  be within walking distance to club orient (since it is the closest hotel
  to club orient)

  The hotel was built in 1989, so if you were there before then, you probably
  wouldn't have seen it! 8^) .. Its rated a first class (four star) hotel.

  I'll have to give a trip report when I get back.  I did ask specifically
  for hotels on clothing optional beaches .. so I'm hoping its completely
  optional (or close enough to the club orient beach!)

  ciao
  paul

    Re: .-1  Is that the hotel built on the far end of Orient Beach?  If
    so, the walk to Club Orient will be _on_ the beach, and probably be
    about a half-mile or so.  Is that what you were told?  I don't think
    there's any way you can walk to Club Orient on the road from anywhere.
    
    Also, there's nothing to prevent you from simply driving down the road
    to Orient Beach, if you want to.  I don't think you have to be a guest
    at Club Orient to use the beach.

    Re: -1.  Isn't that what I said?

  Amy and I just returned this weekend from a week in St. Martin.

  We are both VERY glad that we stayted at the Mount Vernon Hotel.  This 
  hotel is located on Orient Beach on the French side of the island.

  We booked our vacation through American Express here at DEC, which in turn
  booked the vacation through another company.  Total cost was 680 p/p for
  Air Fare, Hotel, Breakast, taxes and transfers. (also the hotel runs a
  shuttle to and from Marigot and Grand Case daily, and one to and from
  the Royal Casino/Maho Hotel nightly) Mount Vernon is listed as a 4 star, 
  superior first class Hotel.  Most of the rooms at the hotel have an ocean
  view. We booked late and were unable to get one, however, the view
  from our room was of the mountains (or hills) behind Orient Beach and
  was quite nice.  The rooms are Jr. Suites, with a single king size bed,
  very new fixtures, a large bathroom, and a large Color TV with many movie
  chanels, CNN and so on.  The hotel is quite nice, .. however, the hotel 
  resteraunt is only OK at best.  The hotel boasts the largest swimming pool
  on the island. It is extremely large and nice, the pool sits in front of a 
  bar and grill with a covered/open dining area, which is right on the beach.

  The beach right in front of the bar requires at least a g-string, as does
  the pool area.  Amy and I walked about 50 yards to the right of the
  pool area and laid out naked there.  When we went back to the pool area
  for lunch (or shelter from a couple of passing storms) Amy put her g-string
  on.  We laid out next to the pool a couple of times, and swam in the pool
  .. Amy wore only her g-string wich covers almost nothing, and nobody 
  batted an eyelash. (there were quite a few women topless with thongs
  on at the pool).

  The weather was rainy our first two days there, but sunny the next five
  days.  It stayed around 85 or so degrees all week. (Aaahhhh, I love that
  kind of weather!)

  I would definetly recommend Mount Vernon.  Its a very nice place with
  nice accommodations, beautiful pool, the beach is kept free of seaweed,
  there are plenty of activities at the hotel to keep you busy, a nice 
  main area with a weight room upstairs, a bar and pool tables downstairs.

  The only thing I wouldn't recommend is the resteraunt for dinner (lunch
  was fine).  

  If you're a club orient fan, .. it was about a 15 minute walk to Club 
  Orient from Mount Vernon along the beach.  The entire orient beach is
  clothing optional, except directly in front of Mount Vernon, which requires
  g-strings at least.  If you picture Orient Beach as a left parenthasis, ( ,
  Mount Vernon would be at the tip of the parenthasis, club orient is somewhere
  near the bottom.   I'd say the beach is about a mile long? (anyone care
  to guess otherwise?)  (the ocean is to the right of the parenthasis)
  The sun rises on the beach, unfortunately, so no great sunsets, however
  sunrise was gorgeous on the beach!

  All in all, Saint Martin is a great place to go.  The food was excellent
  (though a bit pricey), night life is good, the beach and island in general
  is quite beautiful!

  paul

    
    Monday, I had booked 3 days at Club Orient (following a week in 
    Tortola).  I was a "day visitor" last May and decided to stay for
    a while if I could this year.  I was really impressed with Jim,
    the US rep. who booked it for me over the phone.  Yesterday, the
    confirmation arrived in the mail with a whole envelope full of
    stuff ... helpful information, tips, etc.
    
    So far, they have been more courteous and more pleasant to deal with
    than "regular" hotel/travel people.  If this is how they treat you
    before you get there, I can't imagine how good they are in person!
    
    Sue

    I saw in the HOLIDAY_TRAVEL notesfile that Club Orient is closed
    until further notice due to hurricane damage.  Apparently some/all
    of the chalets were washed out to sea.
    
    Sue