Conference misery::feline

    I believe females can go into heat (again) when their litter is weaned
    (usually two months after the kittens are born).   Probably three
    litters/year is not uncommon.
    
    Jo-Ann

    If you go get her spayed immediately...they can abort the kittens!
    I would do this real soon.,
    
    Sandy

    I once had a female that adopted me, and almost immediately presented
    me with kittens. I hoped to have her spayed when the kittens were
    weaned, but by that time, it was already too late! I still can't figure
    out how she managed this, as I was keeping her indoors! They're pretty
    tricky sometimes! 8-}
    
    BTW, I DID manage to get her spayed after the SECOND litter! ;-)
    
    Y                    

    Take her in IMMEDIATELY to be spayed, or you will have
    another litter!

    A cat is physically capable of coming back into season within DAYS of
    having a litter.  Do not let your unspayed females out of the house
    until they are spayed or you will undoubtedly have another litter on
    the way.
    
    Cats are induced ovulators, meaning, their bodies release eggs in
    response to being bred.  This means that sterile breedings are not
    common.  If your cat was bred that night, she is most likely pregnant
    already.  If you take her to the vet now, the vet can safely spay her
    and prevent the second litter from happening.
    
    Jo

Hi everyone,

I recently collected a lovely little cat from the SOS. She's aparantly now 6
months old. I've already taken her to the vet's and she's had all injections
(about 1 month ago).

However, since then her stomach area has become _increasingly_ large, and i'm
sure it's not that i'm overfeeding her (because i took in a stray 2 weeks after
and _she_ eats most of the food! ;-)), so, is there any way to tell if a cat is
definatively pregnant???

Thanks,

				Lewis.

    Lewis,
    
    Has she been outside?  Chances are if she went into heat and went
    outside, you've got a prego kitty on your hands.  
    
    Check her "nipples" and see if they're pink.  If so, then she's
    pregnant.
    
    If she's not pregnant, she may just have worms.  Their bellies always
    bloat when they've got worms as well.  
    
    In either case, it sounds like a trip to the vet would be in order.
    
    Holly
    

    I second the trip to the vet idea.  He can tell you for sure.
    
    If she is less than three weeks along, there will be no signs.  After
    three weeks, the nipples enlarge and become quite pink.  At about 5-7
    weeks you can feel the kittens moving inside by gently placing your
    hand on the outside of her belly.
    
    Some of my cats nipples go pink during their seasons, so pink nipples
    may not an indication of pregnancy.
    
    Jo

    Having babies has no long term affect on a cat's personality.  She may
    go through some changes during the pregnancy, and while she is
    responsible for the kittens, but once she has weaned them and been
    spayed, there will be no lasting affects.
    
    If your female is only 5 months old and pregnant and about ready to
    give birth, then you do have a problem.  Cats are induced ovulators. 
    Those eggs don't know that the host is only 5 months old.  Number of
    kittens depends on how often she was bred, and how viable her eggs, and 
    the sperm are, in addition to her nutrient resources.  
    
    A cat that is in the growing stage themselves do not usually have
    enough nutrient resources in their bodies to support a pregnancy. 
    Those that do manage to do it are usually totally depleted when it is
    all over, and this can be a major factor in their health.
    
    Get her to the vet right away.  He may recommend some food supplements
    that will help her body provide the nutrients it needs for the kittens. 
    During pregnancy, any needed nutrients will come from the body of the
    mother, thus depleting her resources.  Be sure to feed her a high
    quality KITTEN food, as that would have the maximum nutrition for her
    and the kittens.
    
    I am surprised that a shelter would house unspayed females with
    unneutered males.  They should know that the rate of maturity of cats
    depends on a lot of different factors, and cats of opposite sexes that
    are housed together generally become sexually active sooner than if
    they were living separately.
    
    Jo

Well thanks for all the advice (especially getting Mitzi to a vet). However,
she was indeed pregnant, but is no more!!!

I returned early from a party on Saturday night, sat down with Josy (the 
ex-stray cat), then went through to our bedroom. Mitzi was on the bed and
acting kinda strange, wanting to be fussed, moving her head to your hand (even
when it wasn't "offered"). Anyway, i got into bed, and she came up so i started
to fuss her (i wasn't going to sleep... gotta wait for the girlfriend to ring
for a lift back from all this partying! ;-)).

Anyway, her body started to writh, and i though, "oh no... this is it". She
turned away from me, and i saw these 2 little legs "sticking" out of her. Ahh
it was the most amazing site. She'd had "silver" within 20 seconds and she 
was so happy. She cleaned him/her and sat down, purring her little head off.

I rushed to get my girlfriend, because i knew she wouldn't want to miss much
more off this. This was at 1.30am. We both sat up with them until 2.30am and
then she started writhing again. This time a kind of black oval balloon came
out (after about 2/3 minutes) and we were kind of worried. However, she 
cleaned "shadow" for a while (not long) and then left him and moved back to
where "silver" was. This was kind of worring, but after 10/15 minutes we
decided to move "shadow" back to his/her mum. We did this ever-so gently and
"shadow" started snuggling... all seems OK.

Then at 3.30am Mitzi started again. This time, it took 10 minutes, and Mitzi
seemed like she was in pain. We were going to start attempting to help, but
all was OK in the end. Out popped "gizmo". 

During this time, Josy came into the bedroom and watched. I think we were all
a little amazing... it was lovely. "Silver" is a little grey coloured cat,
"Shadow" is pure black and the runt and "Gizmo" is a taby/tigre just like Mitzi
and is the largest.

As of now, Mother and babies are installed in a spare room (real warm). She's
been feeding all three all day yesterday, and looks happy and content. There
doesn't appear to be any problems with her. She was up and walking after all
3 (someone mentioned to me that she may not be able to walk), she's eating and
drinking fine. Our only worry now, is that all of a sudden Josy has gone a tad
"round"!!!!! ;-(

So, is it normal for a cat to want to share this experience with it's owners 
(and so close)? She didn't mind us picking up "Shadow" and placing her nearer
her mum... is this normal?

Thanks for all the advice and support,




					Lewis.

    That's all normal with my girls.  I have one queen who will not give
    birth unless I am there.  She will wait for me, and two minutes after
    my return, will be in full blown labor.
    
    As long as the mom doesn't mind it, handling the kittens is important
    for their socialization.  Doesn't sound like the mom minds.  
    
    Be sure she is eating kitten food, and be sure that she has a steady
    supply very near where her kittens are.  Most mom's don't like to be
    too far from their babies, even to eat.
    
    Jo

    Congratulations!!!  I'm glad Mitzi had such an easy time.  When my
    Lizette had her kittens she came into bed with us and snuggled under
    the covers until she started having contractions, and we then put her
    in the birthing box we had prepared.  The box was on the bed and she
    snuggled next to me between births.  She was not as good as Mitzi about
    cleaning her kittens after birth, (I had to do it and cut the cord).
    
    Mitzi obviously loves and trusts you, since she wanted to be near you
    when she had her babies.  Enjoy watching the kittens grow.  Take lots
    of pictures.
    
    Steffi

    Congrats! I gues the question WAS answered! ;-)
    
    Some Momcats don't mind their people handling the kittens, and as Jo
    said, they should be handled, to get them used to it.
    
    Mom needs good nutrition now, also stated by Jo. ;-)
    
    Now, you just have to keep her in until the kittens are weaned, so you
    can get her spayed before she gets pregnant again. ;-) I didn't realize
    years ago when a stray cat found me and had kittens, that she would
    come into season BEFORE the kittens were fully weaned, until the second
    litter was pretty far along! I kept a CLOSE watch on her the second time, 
    believe me! ;-) (Actually, she snuck out only one time the first time, but
    unfortunately, it was plenty of time!)    
    
    Enjoy those babes, and please keep up the reports? I know I love them!
    ;-)
    
    Yonee
            

Well another day another dollar, just a few more questions... honest! ;-)

One worrying thing is that every now and again Mitzi will go back into her
box (where the kittens are) and sit on them. I don't mean in a motherly way,
she just jumps in and plonks down. All we can hear in a different room is
the babies squealing, Mitzi doesn't seem to realise and doesn't move... could
this be a problem?

Another problem is that we want to separate Mitzi and babies and Josy. We don't
want Josy turning on any of the babies. However, it seems that Mitzi is feeling
left out and she'll come and sit with us for 20 minutes... is this OK? What's
the longest period she should be away from her kittens?

Yep, she has food and watered-down milk in the spare room, it's nice and warm
in there (and also quiet!).

Apart from all this, they're all just lovely... i know that we can't keep them
but i'm starting to get attached... i guess i shouldn't watch them so much! ;-)

********************REAL IMPORTANT QUESTION*******************************
*IF* this bunch of kittens is a mixed bunch (ie boys and girls) how can we tell
so early on which sex they are, and how do we prevent then "mixing"... will they 
(being brothers and sisters)? I'd imagine that it doesn't/wouldn't bother them.
**************************************************************************

We don't let any of them out at the moment, we haven't really had them long
enough to be sure of them coming back, but now Josy looks pregnant, there's no
way she's going out!!!! ;-)

Thanks again,


					Lewis.

    
    Make sure she also has a bowl of fresh water, too.  Nothing
    in it BUT water, and change it daily......

Now it's strange you say that, you see neither Mitzi nor Josy will drink water.
It's ALWAYS put down for them, but they just won't touch it. That's why i put
down watered-down milk.

Is that a big problem then?

    As long as it's there, I wouldn't worry about it.  A nursing
    Mommy cat needs lots of fluids, obviously to replace what she
    is losing.....

    Lewis,
    	Re seperating the kittens, I think that you'll be safe for a few
    months.  Note that the kittens shouldn't go out before they've had
    vaccinations from the vet (at 6 & 10 weeks old, I think?... A little
    while anyway!)

    
    Anybody know exactly what the length of a feline pregnancy is? 
    And how far into that period does it become obvious?
    
    Adrienne
    

    64 days, I think, but I don't remember when they start to "show"!
    
    Leslie

    Feline gestation can range from 58 days to 71 days and still be within
    what is termed "normal".  The average range is 63 to 65 days.
    
    For more info on how to tell they are pregnant, and at what point
    symptoms become apparent, see note .8.
    
    Jo

    
    Thanks - here's hoping she's not ;-)
    
    

Well to be perfectly honest, you can see how quickly i noticed! I wasn't 100%
sure up until the Saturday night when Mitzi was having them!!!

We started noticing a maximum of 2 weeks before the birth... before that it 
just looked like she was eating too much. She started off looking like A then
changed really quickly into B... then we started wondering (like i said at
about 2 weeks before). Looking along her body from tail to head (ie sit behind
her!)


	A	---			B	---
               /   \                           /   \
               \   /                          /     \
                ---                           \     /
                                               -----

It was a real big difference. She seemed to "plop out" sideways (i'm always
good with words ;-)). Another thing was that she started to hate being touched
on the underside, but there again she never did like being picked up anyway!

RE jabs;  

Yea, what i was going to do was to keep all the kittens for 2 months and then
start giving them to people. If i have all the jabs done then it'll start to
hit my pocket a bit. And then same with Josy's lot if she has some, which we're
pretty sure of now!!!

Ahh, you should see these kittens now. It's nearly been a week and they're a lot
bigger. They're almost the size of your hand now! When do they start to open 
their eyes? And when will they be walking around the place, they're quite
active at the moment and that's just in mom's basket!

Cheers,

					Lewis.

    You really should give the kittens at least their first vaccines at six
    weeks.  The immunity they get from their mother will start to wane at
    this age and they are very susceptible to upper respiratory illnesses
    when that happens.  If your other cat goes outside, then do keep her
    away from the babies now, or she may bring back illnesses to the
    kittens.
    
    Eyes generally open between 10 and 14 days.  Ears open by the third
    week.  Kittens start walking on their legs, without dragging their
    bellies, when they are between 3 and 4 weeks old.  About this age, you
    can begin introducing them to solid foods.  
    
    Jo

Jo,

Ok, thanks for that info. I always thought that you only needed to give kittens
/cats vaccines if they were to go outside! I never thought that they could 
start to need them before. We're not letting Mitzi out at all while she's
feeding so there's no worries there.

The big guy (it's gotta be a guy) of the litter almost has one eye open now! It
has just got a little corner to go now. One week down, six to go! ;-)

Cheers,

					Lewis.

Well i've just returned from spending 4-days away (yep, someone stayed with
the cats all the time!) and the 3 kittens are all coming along fine.

However, this lunchtime, Josy started going into labour. She's had 4 so far.
The first survived, the second came out and it wasn't even fully developed, it
was dead on arrival. The third came out and is alive, and she's just had the
4th one... also dead, not fully developed. The survivors however are extremely
small. I don't think she's finished yet either... my girlfriend is keeping me
posted.

Question is, how will mom react to having 4 babies and only seeing 2 alive?
We've already removed the first one, and i suspect my girlfriend may do the
same to the fourth. How is she going to react to Mitzi's 3 kittens if shes 
only got two?

Am i just worrying about nothing?

Thanks,


					Lewis.

    Cats usually aren't intested in any kittens that don't survive birth. 
    They are too busy with the ones that are alive.  I wouldn't worry about
    that part right now.
    
    Either of the moms may decide they want to mother ALL the kittens.  I
    would not let this happen, especially for the first three to four days. 
    The newborns need to nurse off their own mom, so that they can get
    colostrum from her.  Colostrum is also called "first milk" by some
    people.  It is the fluid that the kittens take in until the milk comes
    in, and it is very important to them as it gives them immunity from
    disease until they are old enough to be vaccinated. 
    
    Another reason for keeping the moms and kittens separated is that the
    newborns are smaller and weaker than the kittens that are a few weeks
    (?) older, and wouldn't stand a chance against the older kittens at the 
    milk bar.  Once they are all older, and eating solid foods, and have
    been vaccinated, then you could put them all together.
    
    Jo

    Kittens born before day 58 of gestation are rarely able to survive. 
    Those born on/after day 58 can survive but generally do not have a
    sucking instinct, nor are they strong enough to nurse.  This is where
    tube feeding comes in.  Ask your vet to show you how to tube feed if
    the kitten is too weak to nurse.
    
    Is Josy okay?  Sounds like she may be in danger herself.  You mentioned
    she was still very big. Is she still carrying the rest of the litter?
    
    Jo
    

Jo,

Yep, Josy's ok apart from the fact that she's quite sad (or seems to be). We 
got both back from the vet last night, and he supplied us with a small bottle
and tite (spelling?) and some milk powder which we need to feed to Shalamar.

He said that Josy's ok, he's x-rayed her, and there's nothing left inside her.
He also said that she just needs to go to the toilet, apparantly she hasn't
been for a while and that is part of the reason she's big. He gave her some
injections and he said that it will stop her milk (?) being produced. He's
assured us she'll be OK, but we've got to take her back in a week or sooner if
anything is wrong.

Shalamar spent all night with Mitzi, we had to separate the 2 mom's because
Josy would sit down with all the kittens and Mitzi would watch. Seeing as
Mitzi is the feeder now we don't want her to reject them by seeing Josy with
them. It broke Josy's heart last night to be without any of the kittens. They
were in separate rooms. However, when we woke this morning we found Shalamar
outside of the basket, really quite cold. We've now put him back with Josy
and we're feeding him ourselves with the special milk formula. We figured this
is best because if Mitzi is rejecting Shalamar, we'd rather he keep warm with
Josy and fed him ourselves. Josy was so happy to sit down with him and she
seems to have taken to him although the vet said she's rejected him... i
think that may have been because they put Josy and Shalamar into a cage with
one of those red lights (heat lights)... it may have been too hot for Josy (a
real long haired black cat). Confused? You will be! ;-) We are! ;-)

Shalamar is starting to feed from the bottle now, and it's amazing to see. You
know to be there feeding this little guy and keeping him alive. I think if he
survives (he will do!) we'll keep him, after all this we've been through i'd
hate to give him away and it would kill my girlfriend. Luckily she's between
contracts and is spending all day at home with them for the next couple of
weeks!

Gizmo, Shadow and Silver are all now real big, about 15cm long and 7cm wide.
They're all walking about, getting out of the basket and making a real noise!
Just at 2 weeks 2 days and they're already hassle! ;-) Only 4 more weeks to
go! ;-)

Cheers!

					Lewis.

    I am confused about why the vet gave Josey a shot to dry up her milk.
    Shalamar needs to get colustrum from someone, and it would be best if
    it was Josey.  It is too late for him to get colostrum from Mitzi, as
    the colostrum is only there for the first three days after delivery.
    
    The ideal situation would be for Shalamar to feed off Josey.  If that
    can't happen, the next choice would be for him to feed off Mitzi.  You
    can try rubbing him all over with one of her kittens, to get their
    smell on him, and then put him in with her.  I have done this
    successfully in the past.  The reason it is best for him to feed off a
    momcat is because even after the colostrum is gone, there is some
    passive immunity to be gained from nursing on mother's milk.  If you
    can't work it out to get him nursing with Mitzi, then the bottle
    feeding is a way to keep him going.
    
    Did the vet tell you to feed him 1cc of formula for ounce of body
    weight every two to three hours?  That is what it takes to keep a
    kitten strong and healthy.  And you must also stimulate his bladder and
    bowels if none of the mother cats are doing it.  Do you know how to do
    this?
    
    Jo

Jo,

The vet seemed to think Shalamar was too small to suckle, he tried to get him
to do it, but couldn't. We're not sure that Mitzi will totally accept her. Like
i said i went in the other morning and Shalamar was on the floor and cold, we
don't think he'd climb up the side of the basket yet so assume Mitzi put him
there.

None of Josy nipples have come up, in fact if anything they seem indented a
little... this could be part of the problem.

We are trying to get either one of the cats feeding Shalamar but neither seem
to be doing it. He doesn't stand a chance with Mitzi and her 3 big 'uns!

The powder we've got mixes 60ml with 2 teaspoons. Shalamar is having approx
5ml every couple of hours. There are exceptions. Last night, after to tempt 
him at dinner time, 30 minutes later he downed 8ml. On average i'd say he's
taking in about 20ml-30ml every 12 hours... we're quite happy with this. He's
noisy and active, and doesn't appear too weak... but it's early days yet.

Shalamar has been to the toilet a couple of times, Josy's doing quite well
in keeping it clean. We're still a little worries about keeping Shalamar
warm enough though. We have a readiator right next to the basket, but 
because it's in the front room (they wouldn't settle anywhere else and Josy
stays int eh basket with Shalamar while we're there so thye don't seem to be
being distured), there may be some draughts. We had thought about sticking a 
hand warmer under the blanket in the basket but we don't fully trust it. Any 
ideas?

Thanks,
					Lewis.

    Do you have a heating pad?  If so, I would put the heating pad under
    the basket, but only under half of the basket.  That way, if the
    heating pad is too warm, the kitten and mom can crawl off it without
    having to get out of the basket.  I usually keep the heating pad on the
    low setting, and put it under several layers of newspaper and towels so
    that it isn't too warm on the kitten and the mom.
    
    Over here we have a drug called Oxytocin that can be given to a cat to
    help the milk come down.  It can also stimulate contractions for cats
    that are in labor, and it can also stimulate the release of hormones in
    the cats body.  It many cats it seems to stimulate a nuturing response
    on the part of the mom's.  I have given it to cats that were not
    accepting their kittens very well.  It must be given within a short
    time of the birth though, so you are already past when you could give
    it.
    
    Do you have a small scale to weigh Shalimar on?  The best way to know
    if he is eating enough it so track his weight gains.  My Birman kittens
    are generally 100gm at birth, and they gain at a rate of 10-20 grams a
    day.  They usually double their birth weight by the end of the first
    week.  If Shalamar stays the same or loses weight over a few day
    period, he isn't getting enough to eat.  And, as he gets bigger, you
    can feed him more per feeding, and you won't have to do it as often.
    
    Jo

Well another day and more developments.

After sitting down with ALL the cats/kittens for hours we've finally got
Mitzi to accept Shalamar and he's feeding well off of her... she's being
great. Now and again we have to remove some of the larger kittens cause
they keep puching Shalamar off. It's quite a funny sight though, this
little guy aint giving that tite up for anything... but it's actually size
that counts and he's just too small! ;-)

Just for information we have been weighing Shalamar, and he was born at 49gms,
and the other "live" one (that died on the way to the vets) was 46gms... like
i said, REAL small.

I'll remember to weigh Shalamar this lunctime and stick another note in.

Cheers,

				Lewis.

Well i'm a bit confused now. Shalamar is down to 44gms but he's been feeding
off of Mitzi at every opportunity, and we're supplementing him with the powder
solution we were given.

He does look like he's gained a lot of hair though (he wasn't fully covered
when born). I would attribute the loss of weight to the first day/2 when he
wasn't get fed (lucky to make it through). I'm sure now, the way he's feeding,
that's he's going to start to gain weight.

    Don't worry yet about the weight loss.  The important thing about daily
    weighing is that it should be done at the same time each day.  You
    should start to see some weight gain over the next few days.  If you do
    not, then the kitten needs more supplementation, and more frequent
    nursing.  
    
    46 grams is really tiny!  Kudos to you for keeping him alive so far.
    :')  That is quite a feat.
    
    Jo

    Most importantly, don't give up!  It is very hard work to keep a small
    kitten going.  Especially when you have to supplement.  Just keep at it
    and the rewards should be great.  It is like having a real baby that
    needs constant care.  The difference being that the kitten can go down
    hill much faster if his needs aren't met religiously.
    Good luck, don't tire!
    Karen

    If you are letting him nurse and then supplementing him at lunchtime
    and in the evenings and mornings before work, then he should be fine.
    But, if you see him drop weight, then you might consider taking him
    with you to work.  I have had to do this.  I just kept the kitten in a
    small carrier with a heating pad under it, and fed it whenever I had
    to, usually working it into breaks or lunches.  I have a very
    understanding boss.
    
    Jo

    Question ... am I still going to need a heating pad under the box even
    though it's summer??
    
    Holly
    

    Kittens can't regulate their body temperature so it is always good to
    have an alternate source of warmth other than the momcat (because she
    sometimes leaves the babies).  I always use a heating pad, no matter
    the time of year.  
    
    The best way to handle it is to have a heating pad under half the box
    (if you are using a box).  That way, if it gets too warm for the
    babies, they can crawl off the part with the heating pad and onto an
    area that isn't warmed by an external source.  Keep the heating pad on
    low, and I usually use several layers of toweling to difuse the heat a
    bit.
    
    A chilled kitten can die in a short amount of time so it is best to be
    safe.
    
    Jo

Well another weekend gone by and we've hit the 100-club! ;-) Yep, little Arnie
managed to get up to the 100gms mark! We're really chuffed. He's a real little
fighter and manages to crawl to where he wants (normally to one of the moms).
His eyes are fully open... we figure he's going to be *real* small (100gms at
2 weeks old!).

All the other kittens are fine and running/walking/stumbling around/in the 
food and water. They're also very exited at the prospect of climbing up your
legs and back (usually bare) whenever you sit down to try and get Arnie to 
feed off of Mitzi! They're still real cute though! They're all trying (and
managing) to eat kitten food, so it'll give Mitzi a break.

Will her milk be drying up soon? Will it keep coming as long as a kitten is
feeding off of her? One other question i have is, is there a general milk
(bag) area where all the nipples are connected, or does each nipple have its
own "reservour" (sp?) of milk. Ie if one "drys up" is it possible to get more
milk from a different nipple (can you tell i know nothing about it! ;-)).

Thanks,

					Lewis.

    Each nipple has it's own source of milk.  Any nipples that are not
    being used will dry up.  Only the ones that are "active" will continue
    to produce milk.  Mom's milk usually doesn't dry up until a) the
    kittens stop nursing altogether (this isn't likely), or b) the kittens
    are separated from the mom so that her milk can dry up.  Usually, in
    order to get a mom to dry up, I have to resort to b.  
    
    I would wait until all the kittens are very adept at eating solid foods
    before weaning them off mom.  I wouldn't wean them completely off mom
    before 8 weeks old.  They still get some passive immunity from mom as
    long as they are still nursing.  If you wean them before 8 weeks, you
    must have them vaccinated immediately.
    
    Jo
    

Thanks Jo,

So we can bank-on Mitzi milk lasting a while longer then? I hope so for Arnie's
sake.

Do cats ever lose their milk before the kittens have stopped feeding? It seems
that when any of the kittens start to feed they move around from nipple to 
nipple and sometimes just come off... we were thinking that no milk was being
delivered.



					Lewis.

    Hey Jo, that's a good question Lewis just asked!! I have watched them 
    "swap around" and have wondered the same thing!
    Karen

    I think that they do that because someone else beat them to that
    nipple and nursed it dry before they even got there.  So, they have to
    find another one.  It takes a while for the milk to build back up once
    nursing has taken place.
    
    Moms can lose their milk if they are not getting good enough nutrition,
    enough food, or not enough water to support them.  Be sure that she has
    constant access to fresh food and water.
    
    Jo

more question i'm afraid...

yea, there is always food and water down, although Josy seems to eat most of
it (she's getting BIG)!

Apparantly (i've just got a call from my girlfriend) this morning Mitzi was
sick and there were some worms... it sounds bad, but just how bad is it if
that happened? Will it affect her milk, her health, or anything else. Can we
de-worm cats while they're feeding kittens... will the worms have been passed
onto any of the other cats?

You'll all be glad to know that the 4 kittens are still alive (all of them) but
Arnie's still touching the 100gms mark. However he's crawling about quite a lot
now. The other 3 are running about and leaving little parcels everywhere. Can
anyone give me the best way to try to housetrain these little blighters? They
watch Mitzi and Josy use the litter tray, but don't seem to have grasped the
concept... or will it just come in time???

Any other tip in regards to having little kittens around. I've already learned
(the hard way) to not have any clothing lying around on the floor! ;-)

Thanks,


					Lewis.

    Confine them in a bathroom or room with a linoleum floor. That is the
    best advice I can give.  Sounds like your guys are in the "poo-head"
    stage already.  Once they start eating solid foods, the mom doesn't
    take care of their "business" anymore.  Have you put a litter tray near
    their box?  If not, do so.  Also, after you feed them, or see them
    nursing, put them in the litter and let them play around.  Don't worry,
    most kittens will eat the litter before they figure out what it's for.
    If you find their droppings laying around, move the droppings to the
    litter tray to give the buggers the idea. :')
    
    Did Mitzi vomit worms?  If so, then she probably has roundworms.  These
    are passed on to the kittens, and if she shares a litter tray with
    Josey then she probably has them too.  The whole lot will have to be
    wormed for them.  In the states, we can buy Nemex II and worm kittens
    and cats ourselves.  Not sure if this is true for you or not.  You will
    probably have to call the vet and ask.  
    
    Roundworms can be hard to get rid of.  Just ask Sandy Merritt. :') 
    There are a lot of notes in here about them.  Just type "show key/full
    roundworms" to get a listing of related notes.
    
    Roundworms will affect her health.  If she is vomiting them up than it
    sounds like she has a serious case of them.
    
    Jo

    I will never forget my Roundworm Horror stories and what we had
    to go through to get rid of them.   I learned a valuable lesson
    in ensuring my strays are confined not only until after they are tested
    for the deadly disease...but also tested/treated for worms/mites etc!!
    I personally like the liquid Nemex II much better then the pills
    because I have one cat that is very GOOD at pretending to swallow
    the pill.....but 5 minutes later he spits them out!!  In my case
    (many cats) they kept passing them back and forth...and after 
    multiple treatments and cleaning alot...we determine I must have
    had eggs in my carpets!  (oh how gross!!)
    
    Roundworms sound terrible..(yuck) but about 95% of the stray cats do
    get them.   As Jo stated if she is throwing them up...she is probably
    infested with them.  They definitely need to be treated because they
    can end up in the lungs!   I'm not sure how old the kittens need to
    be before they are treated...so you might want to talk to your vet!
    
    Sandy 
                                             

Well that doesn't sound like good news. Yes, she did throw them up, apparantly
a big ball of them. We have tablets given to us by the vet for de-worming
cats. We were going to do it before we realised they were both pregnant but
didn't want to chance them not getting enough nourishment.

Can roundworms be transmitted to humans. If so how easily. God this sounds
awful if they all have them. Could that be a leading factor to Arnie not
growing quickly?

Sounds like a trip to the vets could be the right thing to do, but taking all
6 in at once... that'll be a nightmare! ;-)

Is it definate that the kittens have them, are they transmitted via the milk?

Thanks,

					Lewis.

    
    Yes, the roundworm infestation can slow growth, because the
    roundworms are parasites, living off the host (the cats/kittens).
    
    

Here's the daily update again.

We found that by upping the dosage/percentage of water to powder in the powder
the vet gave us improved Arnie appetite. In fact, we've added 50% more to the
solution and now he really goes for it... there's nothing addictive in this
solution is there (hey, i'll start flogging it on the black market! ;-)).

Anyhow, he now tocuhing 110gms... we're kind of banking of him varying between
that and 100gms, but will get worried if he falls below that.

He can definatively see and hear. If he's 2 meters away, and you tap the floor
and talk, then put you're hand down he can walk (nearly properly) to your hand
no problem... guess he know's it's feeding time! ;-)

Mitzi (just her) will be going to the vets today... if neccessary all of them
will go in but we'll see what the vet says. He may be able to do a house call
(which would be handy!)...

Cheers,
	
					Lewis.

PS. Anyone know if these worms can be passed to humans? I would imagine so...???

    I have heard Roundworm could possibly be passed to humans...but
    I have never heard of a case.  I would think the only way possible
    would be to ingest an egg...so if you take precautions you should
    have no problems.  The key is treating them per vet instructions and 
    then making sure the litterbox is spotless.  Scoop alot and clean
    thoroughly with bleach/water solution.
    
    I do know most of our shelter kittens are dewormed...but I'm not
    positive at what age this can be done!  Your vet will instruct you
    how much of the medicine/pill to give them because it all goes by
    the body weight of the animal.
    
    Just scoop and clean up good...and you should be able to control it.
    Keep us posted on the Mom's and Babes!!
    
    Sandy
    

Well Mitzi has her "stuff" for the worms. She didn't like it much and the vet 
was a bit ticked off that she sprayed it all over his room! ;-)

We've been told to give the kittens 1 squirt of this stuff (it comes like a
syringe with each squirt measured out) and Josy goes in today. I don't think
we'd be able to handle her very well (especially if the vet had problems with
Mitzi... she's the quiet one! ;-)).

We're not going to do Arnie yet, we'll wait until he gets to around 200gms
(yep, it may be a long wait though). I reckon we'll give it about a week/week
and a half before we do it. He doesn't have much contact with the others 
(unless they're hitting him! ;-)) so it should (hopefully) be OK.

Here's keeping our fingers crossed...

    
    Best wishes, Lewis.
    
    Shaw

    
    Is there anything special I should do for a possibly pregnant kitty?
    
    I have been adopted by a little female kitty who appears to 
    be a little over a year old and who appears as though she may
    be pregnant, although damned if I can tell for sure (sigh). 
    
    I really can't afford to take her to the vet right now - my gang
    keep me permanently indebted to the vet already.  I've never had
    a pregnant kitty before and I don't know if I should be feeding
    her anything special, keeping her from the other kitties (two male, 
    one female, all neutered)
    
    Sigh - Christmas Kittens - let's see, if I put one in everyone's 
    stocking . . . . . 
    

    Hi....if your "lucky" maybe it is just worms!!!
    I've been there before and I was "in total shock" when
    the vet told me the stray was pregnant.  At that time I had
    seven cats and couldn't even think about kittens!!
    
    Well after I got over the shock...I talked to many breeders from
    this file, read many books and started working on my heart that once
    these kittens were born I would find all of them new homes.   Well
    as the time became closer...I actually got excited...BUT my little 
    Abby aborted all her kittens. (which was best for all).
    
    Well after years of working at the shelter..and seeing so many cats/
    kittens that are unwanted...if it happened to me again...I would
    definitely have the kittens aborted.  I know this sounds terrible...
    but I guess shelter life has "hardened" me and the fact of seeing so
    many needy kittens already at the shelter...I could not justify 
    bringing more into the world.  (it took me a very long time to change
    my opinion on aborting kittens....because I did not feel this way
    2 years ago)
    
    Please don't take this wrong...but if you can't afford the vet bill
    to find out if the cat is pregnant...just think what it will cost if
    something goes wrong in the delivery and you need emergency care..or
    how much it will cost to feed the kittens special food...or give them
    the shots they need...or advertise to find them new homes.
    
    Just think long and hard on your decision...and if your willing to
    spend the cost later when the kittens are born...and your willing to
    take on the responsibility to find them all homes...I'd say just get
    yourself a good cat book or talk to some breeders and the Momma kitty
    will do the rest!!
    
    Sandy   

    I've never had a pregnant cat, but when my brother's labrador female
    was pregnant (it happened twice), we could tell by looking at her
    nipples. If they were "pinking up", then she was! Perhaps cats are the
    same?
    
    My brother, bless his innocent little heart, has a male and a female
    labrador and it never occurred to him to get either one of them
    doctored till Sadie presented him with her first pups. Such a nice 
    surprise for him! She's been spayed now, by the way.

    maybe the local human society has a fund to help in cases like this -
    or maybe the vet has a charity fund. Sounds like this stray could fall
    into this category. If she is pregnant but not too far along, you could 
    consider a spay procedure - as Sandy mentioned. The kittens
    would be aborted, but they might die if  born in the wild anyway - as
    might the mother cat as well.
    
    If you feed her and not have her aborted, you can be sure you also will 
    be feeding the kittens in the future. Cost wise, and emotionally wise,
    it takes a toll.(I've been in your situation before). It is a difficult
    decision but I am sure you will do what you feel best for you and for her.
    Good luck.
    Pat
    

    I only get in here every now and then, but this topic is very near and
    dear to my heart and I'm so happy to hear Sandy's opinion (we've had
    discussions from way back when she thought the other way around).
    
    It may sound heartless and cruel, but I support her statements 100%.
    
    Friends of Animals has low cost spay and neuter certificates
    available for purchase.  $38 is the going rate.  most vets require
    at least a rabies shot and will probably be willing to discount it
    if they know the situation.  My vet does for me.  They also will
    charge another $25 or so if the kitty is pregnant to take care of 
    the situation.     FOA is 1-800-321-PETS.
    
    Hopefully you'll be lucky and it's a male w/ worms. :^)
    
    Please don't feel bad or think I'm being cruel and inhumane, I've had
    over 25 cats and 2 drop off puppies spayed and neutered over the last 
    3 years.  I've seen kittens born in the worst weather and we usually
    end up burying them.  The friendly 5 or so  strays we have around are very
    fat and happy (and healthy) and we love them!  I just have to look at
    the whole picture and see how far my wallet (and some very generous 
    donations from other feliners) can stretch.
    
    Michele 
                                               

    I do have to comment...because after I posted my original note
    I re-read it and felt really bad because I thought I had come on
    too strong about my opinions.    I remember 2 years ago when Abby
    was pregnant...another noter (probably Michele...) suggested an
    abortion and I was totally devastated and shocked that anyone
    could do that to kittens.  As you can tell by reading...the folks
    who agree with that opinion are the ones that have spent years
    rescuing strays, dealing with drop off cats, and/or working at shelters!
    If you work with the cat overpopulation issue on a daily basis...I
    guess you do "harden" and your opinions do change over time.
    
    No opinion is right...and you need to do what is best for you.  Some
    questions you might want to consider are:  Does the Mom cat live
    outdoors..will the kittens survive?   Is the Mom friendly...where you
    might be able to help with the birth if there are problems?  Are
    you willing to deal with the expense?  Are you willing to keep the
    kittens or find them good homes?   If the kittens are semi-feral..
    are you willing to work with them to make them adoptable???
    
    Please don't take us wrong...we are not heartless folks...but just
    those that deal with this issue on a daily basis!   You might consider
    bringing her to a vet to determine if she is prego...or just full
    with worms.  If she is prego...you can discuss this with your vet
    and he might want to put her on a special diet with extra vitamins.
    He would atleast be able to tell you when she was due...and that might 
    help you prepare yourself.  Keep us posted...
    
    Sandy

                                            
    
    	I have to agree with the other noters on this subject.  Euthansia
    and/or abortion for mother and kitties if no one will take
    repsonsibility.  It sounds cruel, but it is actually the most humane.
    Of course, it would be great if all were placed in loving homes and
    the owners would spay/neuter.  There are those who would even favor
    spay/neutering and releasing to the wild, but this may only be
    successful with truly feral cats.  Your ?pregnant? female is most
    likely not feral and would most likely not make it through the winter.
    It is a horrible way to go and not at all humane.
    	This subject really upsets me, but it is reality.
    
    Eleanor

    
    Thank you all for your comments.  I don't think any of you are cruel
    or heartless at all - in fact one of my kitties is Mumsey from the 
    Pat Brody Shelter (renamed Miss Muffet as she's afraid of spiders :-)
    and she's missing one of her back paws.  She had six(?) kittens when
    she arrived at PBS and stayed there a while as people don't seem to 
    want to adopt less-than-perfect cats.  Everytime she limps on a cold
    floor, I can't help wondering if her life would have been different
    (although she's spoiled rotten now (sigh)) had someone taken her to 
    PBS before she became pregnant/had kittens/lost her paw, etc. etc. 
    
    I never knew there was such as thing as spaying a female cat while
    pregnant so this will take a bit of time to sink in - I'll answer
    some of your questions anyway.  She's definitely a female and her
    nipples are definitely becoming more pronounced.  She's a slight
    little girl to begin with, but I wouldn't say she looks malnourished.
    Her fur is shiny and her eyes are clear and bright -- she's also
    not feral - especially since she found me.  Sigh.  She's basically
    moved right in - I've taken her out in the back yard and tried
    to shoo her away (the neighbors think I'm nuts yelling 'Be Free'
    at this little furball) but she either sits on my feet and has a 
    bath or heads back to the house and waits for me -- One day she 
    got in somehow while I was out trying to aim her towards her home
    and I thought she'd actually headed off - only to find her sleeping
    under the woodstove.  I've asked around and haven't found anyone
    willing to own up to her.  
    
    I'll have to think this whole thing over - but I do have one more
    question.  With a good cat book in hand, is it possible to know
    when a delivery is going awry?  What if I'm not home?  Does how far
    pregnant she is have anything to do with whether a spay would be 
    possible?
    
    Thanks for listening. 
    
    Adrienne
    

    Adrienne...most vets won't do the spay on a pregnant cat after
    X weeks. I'm sure vets all have their own opinions on what the
    X should be...so you might want to talk to your own vet.   If her
    nipples are popping...I bet she is pregnant and she decided your
    home would be a good place to bring up her family!  
    
    I had bought the "Book of the Cat" when Abby was prego because it
    had a good section on kitten births.  The book is a great book with
    alot of information...but if you don't want to buy it I could always
    make you a copy of that section.  It even tells you stuff you should
    have ready in case you need to get involved in the birth.    
    
    I'm glad to hear Miss Muffet (Mumsey) is spoiled rotten and enjoying
    her new home....She was one beautiful cat!!!  
    
    Sandy
    

    Hi -
    
    I feel a need to comment, too, because I had to make this decision and
    know how difficult it is. 
    
    A few weeks after we rescued Poppy from life on the streets, we noticed
    how large her belly was getting. How nice, I thought, she's finally
    putting on some weight. One night in the middle of dinner, as I watched
    her waddle across the kitchen, the light finally went on, and I yelled 
    out, "Oh geez, she's pregnant!"
    
    Poppy was just recovering from a horrible viral infection that nearly
    killed her within a week after we got her. She had spent over a week in
    the hospital with a very high fever. We were not sure how far along she
    was, and I was worried she was too weak to handle kitten-birth.
    After consulting with the vet on the possible effects the illness might 
    have on her and her kittens, along with all the other effects from her 
    being undernourished and living in the  wild, we decided to have the 
    kittens aborted. 
    
    It was a hard decision, but we felt it was the right one. We just
    couldn't bear the thought of putting her through a difficult delivery
    or having something happen to her or the kittens. She recovered from
    the surgery with no problems. 
    
    Whatever you decide, keep us posted. We all wish the best for you and
    Momma.          
    
    Kate
    

    
    Well, she's definitely pregnant - so that at least rules out the 
    worm theory.  After actually getting her to sit still long enough
    to be able to look her over, I'd bet she's about six weeks along
    (I don't know much about this but I used to live on a farm and 
    I can vaguely remember the cat-pregnancy stages) -- I'll bet that's
    too late for abortion (which kind of makes the decision easier ;-)
    but she definitely needs a trip to the vet as I think she has 
    worms in addition to being pregnant.  A couple of kind noters 
    offered suggestions/help with that which is very, very much 
    appreciated and I'll get back to them off-line. 
    
    Thanks again for all your help - I'll update this note as we go along.
    Right now she's either in the 'find-a-nice-nesting-spot' or the 
    'leave-me-alone-i'm-hiding-and-sleeping' stage, can't tell which :-)
    

    
    Well, I took her to the vet on Friday.  She is about 7 1/2 weeks 
    along.  I believe I can place at least two kittens and I will find
    some way to get her spayed after the kittens are delivered.  Had 
    I caught on earlier I might have chosen different options, but
    we'll just make the best of it.  
    
    The vet was very helpful about the whole thing.  She says that she
    has tapeworm, but not to give her the Droncit until after delivery.
    I also had her FeLuk tested so that I can place the kittens with 
    a clear conscience.  
    
    Now I'm trying to rule out possible nesting places - like my 
    dresser drawer in which I keep finding her sneaking.  It's only 
    open a few inches and heaven knows how she gets that belly in 
    there, but somehow she manages.  She loves the top shelf of my 
    closet as well, but I don't think I want her having them 5 feet
    off the ground.  
    
    All-in-all she's happy and healthy and seems happy with her new 
    home - Snoopy and her are forever getting into little tiffs 
    about their 'space' but nothing serious.  A few kitty-treats and
    everyone runs off to their respective corners peacefully.
    
    My biggest problem will be keeping the male cats separated from 
    her and the kittens when they're born. 
    
    Adrienne
    

    Adrienne,
    
     I had to laugh when I read she was popping into your dresser drawer. I
    had a female that did the same thing. (She came to me in the family way
    also) I finally surrendered, and cleaned my stuff out of there, and then
    lined it with plastic, and filled it with nice soft rags for her. It
    was a sectional drawer, and she picked the middle one. I figured it was
    better than having to look for her and the kittens later! 8-)
    
     My female had no trouble at all keeping the male cats away all by
    herself! She went ballistic a few times, and after that, they gave her
    and her nest a wide berth! ;-) 
    
    Yonee
     

    
    Well, today is day 50 (approximately) so I guess it's time to get in 
    here and post some of the questions I keep thinking of before
    I forget them: 
    
    1.  If I'm going to be away for 48 hours (no more) should I take her
    	with me or leave her here?  If I take her to my parents, I will 
    	most definitely want to bring her and the kittens home when I
    	come home.  Would that be a problem?  (I could wait a couple of
    	days to bring them home if it made a big difference)  If I 
    	leave her here, I assume I should put her somewhere warm with
    	plenty of food and water (goes without saying) where the other
    	cats (one male neutered and one female spayed) can't get to 
    	her should she go into labor.
    
    2.  I believe the answer to this is yes, as I don't know how else
    	it would work, but do kittens have umbilical cords?  Does the 
    	mother take care of that (I assume yes, since cats have been 
    	doing this for years without us ;-)  What if the mother doesn't
    	for some reason, what should one do?
    
    3.  How long are they usually in labor?  How long between kittens?
    	How many kittens (average) per litter? 
    
    4.  When can the kittens be touched?
    
    5.  I read in another note that you can feel the kittens moving
    	around between 5 and 7 weeks.  By my calculations, she's
    	7 weeks and 1 day and when I feel her, I can't feel anything
    	moving.  Is that a bad sign?  Should it be easy to feel 
    	them in there?  I didn't go poking or pressing too hard, 
    	I didn't want to hurt her or them. 
    
    Phew!  I think that's it for now :-)   
    
    Thanks in advance for the help :-)
    
    Adrienne
    

    I'll try to answer some of your questions.
    
    The mom cat usually takes care of the umbilical cord and placentia, but
    my Lizette didn't, and I had to tear the cord with my thumb nail and
    wipe to birth sac off the kitten.  We had a heating pad there, and put
    the cleaned kitten on the pad until Lizette was finished having babies. 
    By the 4th and last kitten, she had figured out that she was supposed
    to bite the cord and lick the sac off the baby and eat the placentia. 
    Lizette had a very easy delivery and we were very lucky.  It took about
    2 1/2 hours, with a rest break in the middle.  But I've heard of some
    very difficult births, so if at all possible, you should be there.  
    
    I don't recall ever feeling the kittens move.  Lizette didn't look huge
    either, yet she had 4 good size kittens.  Have you taken Mom cat to the
    vet for a check up?  The vet can usually tell how many kittens there
    are.
    
    I don't think if will hurt her if you take her with you to your
    parents.  Just have a nice, well padded bed for her to lie in while
    traveling.  Do you have a nice big box, for her to use as a birthing
    box?  Put some newspapers and towels in it.  She might shred the
    newspapers to make a nest.
    
    I hope this helped.  Good luck.
    
    Steffi
    
    
    

    This for you guys out there that have been breeding and may have
    experienced a similar situation....
    
    Lynxette is into her 59th day of pregnancy and is experiencing
    spotting.  Mostly clear, pink tinged droplets.  I have not seen any
    contractions, but there might have been the first stage ones.
    
    Hopefully, she will not have any problems and the babies will all be
    alright.  She is not distressed and very much her usual self.  If the
    babies are born at this early age, can you give me some survival tips. 
    I think I have read that they can survive if born this early (usual
    gestation is from 63 to 65 days.  Her mom Roo, went at day 63).
    
    I don't really know what to think yet and don't want to go setting off
    any alarms, so to speak.
    Thanks,
    Karen

    OK, here's one for the experts:
    
    Almost 4 weeks ago, Priscilla from the PBS shelter asked me to
    foster a beautiful long-haired calico named Lucky.  She said
    she was pregnant, and due anytime.
    
    Well, it's been almost 4 weeks, and Lucky hasn't delivered yet.
    I took her to a second vet 2 weeks ago who felt her stomach, and
    said she's pretty sure she felt some sacs, but couldn't be certain
    unless they took x-rays.  She said she probably had another week
    to go, and would be surprised if she went longer.  I decided to
    wait it out.
    
    Well, she went two weeks longer, and still no babies.  She does
    look a little bigger than when I first got her, but now I'm thinking
    maybe she's just getting fatter from all the good food she's getting!!
    
    Her nipples are a little extended, but not real pink or swollen.
    (it's hard to tell with her long hair).
    
    I took her back to the vets last night, and they will x-ray her
    this morning to make certain.  I should know by early this 
    afternoon.
    
    In the meantime, what are the other signs of pregnancy?  How long
    is the typical gestation period?  Could she just be fooling me??
    
    thanks for any info!
    Pam

    Pam,
    
    don't know what to tell you about the kitty, but I can give you some
    facts.  Gestation period is 63-65 days.  Usually at the end of their
    pregnancy, their nipples are larger, and quite noticible.  Also, you
    may see her milk building up in them.  She MAY just have a VERY big
    litter of kittens?
    
    let us know what happens.
    
    Holly
    

    Thanks for the info.  I'll let you know what the vet says.
    If it turns out that she's just FAT, I'll feel pretty foolish.
    But then, she is a nice kitty and I enjoyed having her the past
    month!
    
    Pam

    Well, it looks like Lucky is going to be a mom of a total of only
    one kitten (that explains why she's not so big).  It's a pretty
    big kitten, so she should deliver in about a week or so (sure,
    I've heard that one before!!)
    
    Anyway, I'll let you know when the moms_to_be (both Lucky and me!)
    become officials proud moms!!
    
    Pam

    I'm a mom!!  Actually, Lucky is the mom of a beautiful black & white
    kitten.  She gave birth on Saturday, April 23 sometime between
    4:30-5:45.  I really didn't expect it to happen so fast.  I checked
    in on her at 4:30, then again at 5:45, and found a newborn baby
    already nursing!  I'm not sure if it's a girl or boy (can you tell
    when they're this young??
    
    And this provides the perfect situation for the shelter - today
    Priscilla will be taking in 8 2-week old kittens who's mother just 
    died.  So Lucky will be the foster-mom to 3 of them, while the 
    others will be bottlefed by another volunteer.  At least Lucky's 
    baby won't grow up alone and will have stepbrothers and stepsisters!
    
    Pam

    
    Congrats to both moms!  We hope all goes well with the foster kittens
    too!
    
    Feline Babies are sooooooo cute!
    
    Sue & Crew (all grown up)

    The foster babies are at my house!  And Lucky warmed up to them
    the minute we put them together!  I took some feliner advice
    and took the blanket Lucky's real baby was lying on all week and
    wiped the new babies with it so that Lucky would get the scent.
    She immediately started "talking" to them and taking care of them!
    
    There are four females and one male (Lucky's real baby).  The
    four females are about 2 weeks old and are walking on their own.
    They're really adorable!  Lucky's baby opened his eyes this week,
    but he's still pretty uncoordinated.  
    
    I'm supplementing all babies with KMR during the "transition"
    to make sure mom has enough milk.  So far, they're doing great.
    Poor Lucky went from being a mom of one to five in a matter of
    minutes!  What a trooper!
    
    Pam

    Pam,
    That is a really great story!  I really do love new babies in the
    house.  It is so much fun to watch them grow each day and change their
    capabilities too.  Sometimes after they open their eyes, it's like
    they got a jump start and start hopping about.  Kinda like their legs
    just kick out and they "hop" without actually trying to do it!  WHen
    they get really activated it's like they are flinging themselves all
    
    
    Mom-to-baby sounds are neat too.  When I have the new moms and babies
    on my bed I sleep soundly as long as she is chirping and cooing to
    them.  Very calming!
    Karen

    Well, the foster babies are about 3 1/2 weeks old and are already
    starting to play!  They've been wrestling with each other the past
    week, and one of them discovered a ball last night - she didn't quite
    know what to do with it - but thought it was pretty fun to poke at
    it once or twice.
    
    I've been finding "presents" on the carpet a couple of times a day
    so I put up a small litterbox for them - and one of them actually
    used it!  (didn't see who, but found a little poop in it!)  And three
    of them have started eating solids already.
    
    It's really funny - I think they think I'm their second mom.  Whenever
    I come in the room, they come running towards me crying for a bottle!
    I'm still supplementing them 2-3 times a day with KMR.  The hard
    part is only feeding one at a time, with four others climbing over
    my hands and bottle trying to get at it all at once.
    
    Lucky's biological baby is doing well too - he's 2 1/2 weeks old
    and is walking steadier, rather than "slithering" like he did when
    he was born.  
    
    Kittens are a blast!
    Pam

    Our little girl, Miss Kitty, is VERY pregnant. My wife and I
    would like be ready for the big event, but of course, we don't
    know when that will be.
    
    Is there any sign we can look for to determine that birth is
    imminent?
    
    Thanks,
    Ken

    If she is anything like our cat, she will take your wife's soft
    nighties and line a closet floor with them (after taking out the
    bedding you put down for her) and when you are away or least expect it
    she will quietly give birth and you'll never even know!
    
    -sjd
    

    A couple of things you may notice or look for.
    
    Her **** will start to look a lot more swollen.  Her breasts will fill
    with milk and usually within 24 hours the babies come.  Also, a drop
    in temperature to the high nineties is a great indicator.  A normal
    temp is around 102.  My kitties also get real lovey the week before and
    purr a lot.
    Karen 

    I have a question for the breeders, or maybe someone who's had a
    pregnant cat in this situation.
    
    First, for those of you who don't know me, I breed Turkish Angoras.
    
    Kyra was bred on Mother's Day, which means that today would be her 64th
    day.  She has been pregnant twice before and each time had to have a
    c-section.  Therfore, we assumed that she'd need one today.
    
    I brought her in today for her c-section, but noticed that she was a
    bit smaller than she had looked before.  The last two pregnancies she
    only had one kitten, so I just figured that the one kitten that she
    probably had has dropped.
    
    I just got a call from the vet.  Kyra's not pregnant!  Now, she showed
    ALL of the signs of being pregnant!  Her appetite was up, her nipples
    are pink and protruding, and she started getting fat.  The doctor said
    that she looks like she's pregnant, but she did and x-ray and found no
    babies.  She says that it looks like a false pregnancy.  Her uterus is
    expanded a bit, but there are no babies inside.  I mentioned that
    she looked thinner today and to check to see if she MIGHT have passed a
    kitten (I doubted it VERY much, but you never know) and she said that
    her cervix is closed, so no kittens passed.
    
    Now I've got some questions.
    
    Has anybody ever had this happen to their cats before?  What did you
    do?  The doctor just told me to monitor her to be sure that she doesn't
    get an infection in her uterus because it IS expanded.  Also, could she
    POSSIBLY have re-absorbed the kittens?  
    
    Could I possibly breed her again?  Is there another chance that we
    could go through this again?
    
    Thanks in advance for any info you may be able to give me.
    
    Holly
    

    Hi Holly,
    
    I'm not a breeder and have only recently dealt with a pregnant
    cat (Lucky - who had me thinking maybe she was just fat!!).
    
    I'm wondering if it's a good idea to put Kyra through pregnancies
    when you know she has to have a c-section each time.  Isn't that
    putting her through a lot?  Does your vet have an opinion on
    this?
    
    Personally, I would think twice about putting my cat through surgery 
    if it could be avoided.
    
    As always, this is IMHO. :-)
    
    Pam

    Pam,
    
    With this c-section, I was planning on spaying her.  If I can, I'd like
    to breed her ONE more time.  She has given me an absolutely georgeous
    kitten, and I'd like to POSSIBLY have another one that I may be able to
    breed.  I'm going to talk to the vet tonight to see what she says about 
    this.  
    
    I realize that people who are "anti-breeder" won't like the above
    paragraph, but that's just the way that I feel.  I talked to the vet
    the last time she had a c-section about spaying her then, but she said
    that I should be able to breed her one more time without any
    complications or problems.  
    
    As I said, she's gone through a c-section twice.  Both times she came
    through with flying colors and didn't have one complication.  This
    third c-section would be the absolute last.
    
    Holly
    

    Holly-
    
    I know horses who have absorbed a fetus or two in the early stages of
    pregnancy, so I would assume it could happen to a cat.
    
    Michele
    

    Holly...my little girl Abby was prego when I rescued her a few
    years ago.  this pregnancy was confirmed my vet who stated he
    felt atleast 5 kittens.   Well somewhere in her last week of
    pregnancy she either aborted the kittens or absorbed them!!  
    We did notice it looked like she had lost some of her weight...
    and then she started acting very strange and lovey.  Well..what
    I thought was the start of labor....she really was in heat!!!
    
    I don't consider myself anti-breeder...but it is my opinion that
    I would not put any cat through another pregnancy if it needed a
    C-section or in Kyra's cases she has had some problems with her
    pregnancies.   That's just my opinion and it has nothing to do
    with agreeing or disagreeing with breeding.   I just know if ANYTHING
    ever happened...I wouldn't want to live with the guilt!!!  But...you
    have a GREAT vet who I'm sure will help you make your decision!!!
    
    Sandy

    Geesh, there is so much to say on this topic!  Of course the vet I use
    may have differing opinions from yours.  
    
    First of all, why two and then considering 3 sections?  Just because a 
    cat has had one, does not mean that they will need one every time.  I
    know some people believe that, just as in humans.  DAy 64 is not a late
    day.  Cats can start to deliver on day 63 right up to day 68/69 if
    there are no problems.  At day 69/70 is when I have been told action
    must be taken.  
    
    Ferret has had both of her litters on day 67.  Some of my cats go on
    day 63.  But in general it is day 65-67.  So I don't even become
    concerned until then.  
    
    AS for the false pregnancy.  Well, it could be a lot of things!!
    The cat may be bred and produce the LH hormone wich in turn starts the
    Prostaglandin.  From here the uterus gets ready for developing fetuses.
    If the cat is not impregnated she goes into about a 45 day remission
    called (I think) anestrous.  During this time the hormones are a little
    different and could possibly cause the cat to become fatter.
     
    The cat can have a spontaneous abortion due to chemicals or even to a
    change in hormone level.  Placentas play more than the average part. 
    If a placenta attaches at an area of the uterus that has a less than
    good blood flow, it can later detach or cause small babies.  This is
    the reason for the "runt", not that there were too many.
    
    Perhaps Kyra's uterus is not good.  I would really watch out for Pyo. 
    This can be deadly if not caught in time.  Josette pyo'd twice.  The
    second time I thought she was a couple of weeks short of delivering.
    My decision was to spay and good thing.  I got a look-see at her uterus
    and it was not very healthy.  I know the feeling of really wanting the
    cat to be bred!!  Nature is not always cooperative and a good breeding
    program takes a long hard time.  Maybe you could have an ultrasound
    done of her uterus by a specialist to see if it can function without
    any problems.  Then base your decision on that.  I lost (until I got
    Spook) an entire bloodline due to the above.  Now, unless he produces
    for me, it will still be lost.  It can be very important to entrust
    another with certain lines to make sure that they will remain
    available.  Good luck and keep us posted.  Sorry if I have rambled
    intermittently.  Call me if you have more questions.  BTW there is 
    really good woman DR. at Tufts who specializes in the estrus cycle and
    such.  I heard her speak, but don't remember her name ;'}
    Karen