Conference misery::feline

    Hi.  I use FROMM dry cat food for my cats and the vet gave it her seal
    of approval last year when I gave her an empty bag.  The mineral levels
    are very similar to Iams or SD.  When I can't get this, I buy at the
    grocery store something called Special Formula (or whatever) that is
    made specifically for cats who have urinary track problems.  So far, I
    have had no problems with this and the cats like it.
    
    Mary

    I would compare the labels of the premium foods with the labels of what
    you are feeding next time you are at the pet food store.  Only you can
    make the decision on what is best for your cats.  My preference is to
    feed my cats Max Cat and Max Kitten.  It is low ash and magnesium, but
    still has enough protein and fat to keep weight on the breeding cats,
    and give them wonderful coats.  It may not be *the* lowest in ash or
    magnesium, but it suits our particular needs.
    
    Jo

       I won't feed ANY of my animals any food with "ETHOXYQUIN" used in as
    a fat preservative. The subject of this preservative has been discussed
    in depth and the bottomline for me is that it was originally developed
    and uses as a commercial fungicide. BHA and BHT are a couple of other
    fat preservatives, and there are some others as well....all of which
    have been approved by the USDA for HUMAN consumption, whereas
    Ethoxyquin has not and from what I've seen on it will never be approved
    for human consumption. So...first thing I do is scan the ingredient
    list for ASH content and INGREDIENTS. The LOWER the ash the
    better...
    
      I usually feed "9-lives" or "Figaro" or "Friskies" for their wet
    food..(Figaro only has 2 flavors that I'm aware of...Tuna and Tuna &
    Shrimp...and there are REAL shrimp in the 2nd variety, which
    is--obviously--our cat's all-time favorite!).
    
      For the dry, I get the crew "Meow Mix"... If you have seen the T.V.
    commercial for this brand, "they ask for it by name"...the new ad is
    superb...instead of just asking for the "new" variety, the cat in the
    ad has a hat 'n cane and does a little shuffle and soft-shoe routine..
    
      John Mc

    Added note...we give Rico & Alex the Hill's for dry only (I don't even
    KNOW if they have canned), and use Mother Hubbard for canned.
    
    The other problem...a few weeks ago, due to financial restraints, we
    bought 9-Lives cans instead of MH.  Now my finicky twoesome don't like
    the MH!
    
    K.C.

    My gang of four get 9-lives or friskies or Alpo for canned food.
    I alway check the nutritional info. I try to buy them canned food
    varieties that have ash ratings of 2.5 or less. Some of the supermaket
    varieties can be a lot higher.
    
    For dry kibble their favorite is Max Cat ligh or Iams light. They
    will also eat Purina's special diet, Bil Jac, Purina ProPlan if they're
    in the mood. They HATE Blue Seal, Fromms, Purrfect cat (sold at Spags),
    Martinson. They'll occasionally eat Science Diet but they're favorite
    is definately Max Cat. Max Cat's only draw back is its cost. It becomes
    more resonible if you buy it in the 20lb bags.
    

      Re .4
      "9 Lives" is a decent food.. In fact, the "9 Lives" dry is also one
    of the brands that does NOT use Ethoxyquin as a preservative...
    "9 Lives" is also a company that's spent a lot of money and research
    time in feline nutrition studies, so you'll see that their dry food is
    a lot lower in ash content than some of the others are..
    
      One other thing: Make sure the foods you buy have a fair amount of
    "taurine" in them.. This is a substance that is essential for cat
    nutrition, which is why "people-food" Tuna is not sufficient for a
    cat's dietary requirements....they GOTTA have that Taurine...(I cannot
    recall seeing a commercial cat food that does NOT contain this
    substance, though..)
    
      JM

    	We've tried many different brands and the cats settled on 9-lives
    and Max Cat. The two share a half can of 9-lives in the am and again in
    the pm and the Max Cat is out all day for them. So far all their check
    ups have been good and weight has been stable. (more than I can say for
    myself!)
    
    Mike

      I've found with my crew that variety in the canned stuff is
    essential.. They'll go bonkers over one variety for about a month...we
    can open a can of the stuff about every other day and they'll vacuum it
    up immediately....and suddenly thry won't touch it with a 10 foot pole
    anymore.. So we try to mix up the different flavors so they don't get a
    repeat more than one time per week.. Of course, there are some types
    that they won't even THINK about eating... And "the Cookster", A.K.A.
    "Cookie", has a terrific way of reporting her displeasure to us...If we
    put a flavor in her dish that she doesn't like she'll "bury" it... It's
    a panic to see her with this absolutely DISGUSTED look on her fact,
    diligently scratching around the dish in a distinct 'burying' motion..
    JM

    Since Pippin was diagnosed with a  kidney problem Richard and I go to
    the market equipped with a magnifying glass to read all the fine print
    and have even called the Food companies for analysis sheets (they will
    be more than happy to send them to you).  Before Pippin's problem we
    were feeding all three some Friskies flavors, 9-lives, etc., (they were
    used to variety) and Hills wet - they free fed on dry, either Iams, Max
    Cat or Hills.  Now we've had to become much more aware of everything
    that goes into a can, especially protein.  We've found Expert to be a
    very good food and their ingredients aren't too farr off from Hills. 
    They have a Conditioner, Kitten, Low Cal and Senior - all low ash and
    low magnesium and a lower level of protein for Pippin's needs.
    
    BTW the people at Hills are wonderful - they have a vet/nutritionist
    that will talk to you extensively and offer all kinds of suggestions to
    feeding problems.  If your cat has a particular problem (kidney, FUS,
    etc.) they will send you some very good information by mail as well as
    a sheet on how to read the label on a cat of Cat/Dog food.  I was very
    impressed.
    
    Giudi

    I picked up a box of Purina "Special Formula" which is for cats with
    urinary problems.  It says it is NOT for all cats.  Why not?  Is there
    any reason NOT to feed it to my cat?  I have a neutered adult cat, who
    will eat any and everything, and I'm trying my best to feed him right.
    I can understand not feeding it to pregnant or nursing cats, but why
    not to any male adult cat?
    If the (*&^%*& pet supply store would get their act together and keep IAMS
    Less Active in stock in the size I want, I wouldn't have this dilemma.
    But since they haven't, and since I haven't gotten a trip to find
    another supplier, I'm stuck at the supermarket.  I eventually bought
    Purina ONE, after much soul-searching and label-reading.........Sarah

      Re .10
     Where are you located?? There are a lot of IAMS outlets around....
    
     JM

    I have been feeding Science Diet Feline Growth Formula for dry food and
    9-Lives and Friskies low-ash content (2.5 % or less) canned food. 
    Recently, however, I read something in a book entitled The New Natural
    Cat (New York:  Dutton, 1990) that really turned me off.  The author,
    Anitra Frazier, states:  "If you pick up any canned cat food in your
    supermarket and read the tiny print under the heading 'ingredients,'
    you will undoubtedly see the words meat by-products or beef
    by-products.  Dr. P. B. McGargle, a veterinarian who has also been a
    federal meat inspector, says by-products 'can include moldy, rancid or
    spoiled processed meats as well as tissue too severly riddled with
    cancer to be eaten by people.'  Dr. Alfred Plechner gives a more
    comprehensive list:  'Diseased tissue, pus, hair, assorted
    slaughter-house rejects, and carcasses in varying stages of
    decomposition are sterilized with chemicals, heat and pressure
    procedures.'
    
    "Many by-products come from so-called '4-D' animals--dead, dying,
    diseased, and disabled--which the federal government actually allows in
    pet food.  The theory is that all harmful bacteria and viruses are
    destroyed by heat processing at high temperatures, which
    'sterilizes' the meat by-products."
    
    Unfortunately, the author offers alternatives that are not very
    practical, such as preparing the food yourself or buying from
    expensive, specialized suppliers.
    
    By reading the can labels, I've noticed that IAMS contains no
    by-products.  Unfortunately, MacBlue isn't crazy about most of their
    varieties.  Some of the supermarket varieties also seem to be free of
    by-products.
    
    Does Old Mother Hubbard contain meat by-products?  Does anyone know
    where to find it in eastern PA?  I've checked several pet supply
    stores in my area, but none of them carry the OMH canned cat food.
    
    Chris       
    

    If someone will post OMH's pone number, you can give them a call and
    they will be able to give you the name and address of any distributers.
    
    Deb

    re .11,
    I live in Worcester MA, and the most popular pet supply store in my
    area is the one with which I have been having problems, both for cat
    and dog food.  They run out frequently, never get the supply in when
    they promise, and most recently have run out of the SIZE of the bag of
    food I buy for the cat.  I can buy a larger bag, but with only one cat
    it get's pretty stale by the bottom of the bag.  I'm really wondering
    if the supermarket versions are OK, as long as my cat does not have any
    special medical conditions?  I suppose I'll have to dig in and shop
    elsewhere, but anyplace else is really out of my way...
    Sarah

    Sarah,
    
    A Pet Depot supply/feed store has opened next to HQ in Shrewsbury at
    the intersection of Routes 9 and 140.  It looks like a great place
    (huge!) but I haven't been in yet.  It is pretty close to Worcester
    too.
    
    For supermarket dry food, I feed the new Purina One (green box or bag)
    or Whiskas Expert (blue and white box or bag).  The cats inhale it, and
    it is considered a premium quality supermarket food.
    
    Hope this info helps,
    
    -Roberta
    

       If anyone ever saw the ingredient list that goes into a hot dog, or
    watched the processing of chickens through a slaughterhouse, they may
    not ever think of eating either one again... Do you know that the
    Federal Standard for FOOD GRAINS---you know, the stuff that you make
    soup form, eat in bread, cereal, dried beans, peas, barley,
    etc---actually ALLOWS a certain percentage of "rodent hairs, excrement,
    insects and insect parts, stones, sand etc.????
    
       I have NO fear of feeding my pets 'supermarket' brands as long as I
    know what harmful CHEMICALS may be contained in them. I atually QUIT
    feeding Purina cat food because it contains "ETHOXIQUIN", (or at least
    it did when I quit) and went to Meow Mix, which does not. I'm SURE that
    a percentage of the described animal 'parts' does get into some of the
    food brands, but with the processing they are rendered harmless. Most
    of the large petfood manufacturers are offshoots of major human  food
    manufacturing companies...(look at the labels to find the parent
    company). Also....it would not really benefit a pet food company to
    start lowering their quality ad causing harm to their customers...they
    want to keep their furry eaters happy and well, because it won't help
    their profit picture and future a whole lot to start killing the
    recipients of their products. 
    
      It "sells books" though, to point out the fact that this sort of
    material DOES get into petfoods, but although the standards for petfod
    is not as stringent as human, ther still are some controls. I'd
    personally worry more about whether the CHEMICAL additives are
    safe...and the test I try to use is: "Has this stuff been approved by
    the F.D.A. for HUMAN consumption?" If not, it does not get fed to my
    dogs and/or cats... And I also recognize that THIS isn't a 100% sure
    thing either, since there have been cases--such as the red dye
    one---where an approved substance has been found to be harmful at a
    later date...but at least it gives my "kids" the same playing field
    that I have...(Ethoxyquin, by the way has NOT been approved for humans,
    and was originally developed as a fungicide..)
    
      Actually, when I first opened a can of "Figaro" brand Tuna & Shrmp, I
    called my wife over in amazement---"Hey!! Look at this stuff!!! It
    actually has REAL SHRIMP in it...not just microscopic pieces of
    whatever...but REAL SHRIMP."..(Little guys, but there are a quite a few
    of them, and when we pop open one of these cans, the feline-foursome
    are THERE like they'd appeared out of thin air...
    JM

    Any of you East Coast folks have experience with Fromm's cat food?
    An acquaintence of mine is now involved with the company and is 
    introducing it to this area.  Apparently it has only been sold in the 
    east prior to this.  He had a booth at last weekend's show.  I bought 
    a 5 lb. bag at the special show price of $1.99 (it came with a $2.00 
    off coupon for my next purchase; seemed like a good deal to me).
    
    Most I know about this food is that it contains no ethoxyquin or
    BHA and, that he says he has been free feeding it to his cats and even 
    though it is not intended to be a diet food, his cats have lost weight 
    (about 1 to 1.5 lbs) and are looking better than they have in a while.
    My only concern with it so far is that the fiber content is quite a
    bit lower than Science Diet Lite Maintenance, which I have been feeding
    my cats, and that my cat with chronic colitis may have to have a fiber
    supplement (bran or whatever) added to this food if I feed it to her.
    
    If what you have to say about this food would not be keeping in line
    with Digital's policies, please send the information to my mail 
    account at JULIET::CORDES_JA.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Jan

    Jan,
    
    Fromms is a very rich food.  It is all natural, no ethoxyquin; I think
    BHA is the preservative used.  It has a greasy feel to it so must be
    stored in an air-tight container for best results and longevity.  My
    cats love it.
    
    Oh, and the price is right too.  Less than $20 for a 20 lb. bag.
    
    I haven't fed it in awhile but this is what I remember.
    
    -Roberta
    

    Well, I have no concerns that they'll like the taste.  I had pulled
    the bag out for reference when I typed my note and forgot to put it
    away.  I'm now the proud owner of a bag of Fromms with a hole in the 
    bottom.  Someone has chewed through the bag to get at it.  While I
    was sitting here waiting for the terminal to finish coming up (its 
    an old DECmate) Onyx hopped up on the table where I had placed the 
    bag until I logged off and could put it away and very boldly stuck 
    his little face in and gobbled up some of it.
    
    The bag says the food is preserved naturally with mixed tocopherols
    and citric acid.  Isn't BHA some type of citric acid?   Do any of
    our knowledgeable noters out there know what a mixed tocopherol is.
    I'm sure I don't.
    
    You're right Roberta, is does seem a bit greasy but no more so than
    the Science Diet Kitten Growth formula Onyx is currently eating.
    I hope I can find another air tight container to put it in.  I already
    have two in use for storing the SD Lite Maintenance and the Growth.
    I don't think I have anything else big enough to hold 5 lbs. now that
    I can't keep it in the bag until I open in.  Some kitty has taken 
    the opening option away from me.
    
    Those furr-faces, gotta love 'em.
    
    Jan                               

    In my house 5 out of 7 cats walked away from the Fromm's and
    wouldn't eat it.   The other two loved it!!!   It might just have
    something to do with the different smell and shape from what
    they are use to eating (Science Diet Lite Maint)
    
    Sandy

    Tocopheryl is another word for vitamin E.
    
    I try not to feed one dry food exclusively.  I always buy Iams and the
    new Old Mother Hubbard dry, then alternate between Science Diet and Max
    Cat.  All three mixed together usually satisfy the crew.
    
    The OMH is the cheapest (price wise) premium quality dry food I have
    seen on the market and the boys love it!
    
    -Roberta
    

	Hi,

	I was in a pet supply store today and picked up a pamplet on
	a food called Hi-Tor by Triumph.  Hi-Tor Special Diets are
	for cats and dogs and there are three dry and six canned
	diets for dogs.  For cats, there is one dry and two canned
	diets.  These diets are supposed to be the equivalent
	of the Hill's special diets.  The pamplet contains comparisons
	of the different Hi-Tor diets versus Hills.  

	I am including the comparisons and want to know what you
	feliners think about this food.  I'm scared to try it but
	the comparisons make it sound equivalent to Hills C/D.
	The guy at the store said that C/D has cornered the market
	but other pet food suppliers are coming up with competition
	and this seems reasonable... I mean, C/D can't always be
	the only magical cat food around!

	Karen

	** COMPARISONS AFTER FORM FEED **

	Here is the comparison for Hi-Tor Felo-Diet Dry, for cats:

	COMPARISON GUARANTTED ANALYSIS:

	                          Hill's Feline C/D    Hi-Tor Felo-Diet
                                  -----------------    ----------------
	Crude Protein, minimum........ 30.0%                32.0%
	Crude Fat, minimum............ 22.0%                20.0%
	Crude Fiber, maximum..........  2.0%                 2.0%
	Moisture, maximum............. 10.0%                10.0%
	Ash, maximum..................  5.0%                 5.0%
	Calcium, minimum..............  0.6%                 0.6%
	Phosphorus, minimum...........  0.4%                 0.4%
	Magnesium, maximum............  0.1%                 0.08%
	Sodium, maxium................  0.0%                 0.4%



	And for Hi-Tor Felo-Diet Canned, for cats:

	COMPARISON GUARANTTED ANALYSIS:

	                          Hill's Feline C/D    Hi-Tor Felo-Diet
                                  -----------------    ----------------
	Crude Protein, minimum........ 12.0%                11.0%
	Crude Fat, minimum............  7.0%                 8.0%
	Crude Fiber, maximum..........  1.5%                 1.0%
	Moisture, maximum............. 72.0%                78.0%
	Ash, maximum..................  1.5%                 1.2%
	Calcium, minimum..............  0.1%                 0.22%
	Phosphorus, minimum...........  0.1%                 0.42%
	Magnesium, maximum............  0.025%               0.02%
	Taurine, maxium................ 0.0%                 0.04%



	And (since I'm on a rolls) for Hi-Tor Reduso-Diet Canned, for cats:

	COMPARISON GUARANTTED ANALYSIS:

	                          Hill's Feline R/D    Hi-Tor Reduso-Diet
                                  -----------------    ------------------
	Crude Protein, minimum........  7.5%                 8.0%
	Crude Fat, minimum............  1.0%                 2.0%
	Crude Fiber, maximum..........  7.0%                 2.5%
	Moisture, maximum............. 78.0%                78.0%
	Ash, maximum..................  1.5%                 1.4%
	Calcium, minimum..............  0.1%                 0.22%
	Phosphorus, minimum...........  0.1%                 0.2%
	Magnesium, maximum............  0.0%                 0.02%

    I would suspect that since Hi-Tor's C/D equivalent is sold at a pet
    supply store it does not contain the urine acidifier that is said to be
    in C/D.  It is this urine acidifier that makes C/D a prescription diet.
    
    Jo

How much should I be feeding my 9 month old kitten?   I've been feeding her
the recommended amounts on the back of the Science Diet bag, however, she's
definately starting to look like a bowling ball and she begs and cries for more
food like I'm starving her (if I don't monitor what she eats, she'll eat until
she gets sick).   Is it time to switch her feline maintenance or should I go
to the lite (from feline growth)?

Every once in awhile, I feed her some 9-lives (dry) mixed in as a treat too.
Does anyone know if the 9-lives moist (no canned) is alright to feed her?
I know she can't eat tender vittles at all (my sister tried to feed her that 
while she was cat sitting and she had to take her to the vet and the vet told
her that tender vittles can causes the cats digestive system to collapse) so
that's why I'm asking about the 9-lives moist.

Thanks in advance.

    My personal opinions....you might try Iams for the stinko problem, but
    other than that, I 'free feed' all my guys.  There is always a bowl or
    two of Science Diet light and Iams available.  They don't seem to
    overeat.  As for switching her to lite from growth, I wouldn't do it. 
    I'd keep her on kitten till she's a year old, then switch to
    maintenance.  Lite is for 'less active' cats, and trust me, she won't
    be 'less active' for a long while!!  She may be getting sick because
    she's gobbling all she can get at meal time.  Free feeding might be the
    trick.  If you and your vet are concerned about her weight, try free
    feeding the lite and save the other food for mealtime.  As for the
    9 Lives moist meals, you wanna talk stink.....I find the higher quality
    the food, the less the smell on it's way out.  
    
    Mary

Thanks Mary,

I've tried free feeding with Tasha in the beginning and it didn't work.
She'd eat until she got sick, then go back and eat until she got sick again,
etc.  She'd keep doing this until she was completely out of food.  That's 
when I started controlling when and how much she got fed.  She's still getting
fat though.  And the fatter she gets, the lazier she gets too (except for
terrorizing me in the middle of the night).

As for the stink, it doesn't seem to matter what I feed her (Iams, Science Diet,
Fromms, Pro Plan), she still makes your eyes tear and the paint peel when she
heads for that litter box.   I think I'll invest stock in the company that
makes Lyscol!

    re: I've had the same problems with Fromms and OMH dry. VERY stinky
    feces and in the case of OMH - loose as well.  I've had to go back
    to Max Cat.
    
    N
    

    
    Well, having just gone through this, I think I'll add my two cents!
    :-)
    
    I was having the worst time with one of my gang, in particular, my
    male.  Like some of the other feliners, when this guy went to the
    litter box, we all reached for our gas masks!  Well, I finally
    brought him to the vet and was told he was getting too much
    protein.
    
    I was serving them all Triumph wet morning and evening, as well
    as free-feeding them P/D Dry (Hills Science Diet).  The vet told
    me to get them ALL off the wet food completely, that it wasn't
    necessary to feed them both, and that they were getting much too
    much protein.  He said that if I fed them the the dry, solely,
    that I would see a significant reduction in the odor.
    
    Two weeks later, I have to say he was right.  I think the Hills
    products are more grain-based than the IAMS and PRO and Triumph.
    In any event, we can now rest easy, even when company comes!!!
    
    It was not a hard transition for the four of them (they are all
    about 9 to 10 months old now), so it's been great for me.  And
    a lot less messy!
    
    Nancy

    
    Hi,
    
    Can anyone out there help..
    
    Ginger is doing so well, getting along with the dog, biting
    less but...at 6 months is 8 lbs.
    
    Ginger eats so fast...a real garfield, her food, then the
    dog's food, then whatever else she can steal.  Her litter
    box is full every day (I clean a.m. and p.m.).
    
    The Vet said I should change her diet from store bought
    kitty food to PRO Plan...any ideas....
    
    Thanks
    

    My Julie loves the Pro Plan (by Purina) adult formula.  Did your
    vet recommend the lite formula??  Pro Plan is a good food and it's well
    liked in my house, but at 6 months and 8 lbs, she's getting to be a
    little porker!  If your vet recommends a "light" food, you might
    try either the Pro Plan light, or Science Diet Light, which my 7
    also love.
    
    Gee, maybe Ginger could pass on some of that bulk to my little Beth,
    who at 10 months, eats like a pig and is only 6.2 pounds....
    
    Mary

    Hmmmm....I would be concerned about putting a still growing
    kitten on "lite" food right now.....

    In anticipation of bikini season, Poppy is looking to shed a few
    pounds. 
    
    Well, that's my interpretation of what needs to happen. She sees
    things a little differently. About a year and a half ago, Poppy
    was up to 14 pounds, and the vet recommended she lose some weight. 
    We'd been feeding her Iams dry, and he suggested mixing it half-
    and-half with Less Active. We did that for a while. Poppy wasn't
    very happy (she knew how to pick out the less active) and she
    didn't keep the weight off. She lost a few pounds at first but then
    went right back up. 
    
    Around the first of the year, I switched her to Max Cat Lite, and
    she loves it. The bad news is that she wolfs down the whole bowl
    and then spends the rest of the day begging for more. She's suffering
    the dieter's dilemma: always hungry *and* not losing weight. 
    
    Poppy's not a very vocal kitty, and she never begged in the past, 
    but now she's driving us crazy. She follows me around the house
    constantly with "yowl, yowl, yowl, feed me now." She's even trying
    to mooch from the table and kitchen counter, which she never did. 
    
    So, I don't know what to do. If I feed her more, she'll gain weight. 
    I could switch to all Iams Less Active, but she really doesn't like
    that. 
    
    Any suggestions? 
    
    Thanks,
    
    Kate
    

>    I could switch to all Iams Less Active, but she really doesn't like
>    that. 
    
she would, therefore, not eat too much, but just enough to lose the weight...
and her heart would appreciate it alot.  As we cannot force our cats to
take kitty aerobics, then sometimes we have to make these compromises.  I
would feed the less active only and, once the weight has gone down to
acceptable levels, only feed her favorite food in controlled amounts at
breakfast (she has all day to exercise that off). 

Now, all I have to do is find a light food that Missy Hana doesn't overeat...   

    Sigh.  You don't have a cat who sits in front of his dish for hours,
    uttering bone rattling wails of starvation.

    You could always take the Iams less active and warm it up
    in the microwave for a few seconds.  This brings all the oils/smells
    out...and your cat should love it.
    
    When I was switching from Science Diet to SD light...I used the
    above procedure for about three days...and once the kids got use
    to it...I no longer have to heat it up.  Now they won't touch the
    regular SD.
    
    Sandy
    

    Nippa is getting 1/3 cup Max cat lite am and pm, and she lost 1.2lbs in 
    9 months!  She looks better, and is more active and affectionate. 
    
    A 1/3c doesn't seem like much, but most days she leaves some left over.
    If I wamt her to continue losing, I'm going to have to reduce even
    more......gesss I'll have to get a smaller measure.  Sometimes I'll
    split the 1/3 c into to portions, so she get's fed 4 times a day vs
    the typical 2.  I guess it makes her feel better......
    
    Michele & Nippa
    

    Re .32 -
    
    You can increase her exercise.....we spend a 1/2 hr in
    the evenings getting the crew to do aerobics....we play
    "catch mommy" - which is me running around the house like
    a lunatic, with cats chasing me....doing the same thing, only
    dragging a string or kitty tease behind me, throwing the toys
    down the hall so they can chase them, etc. etc.  1 out of 4
    of the housecats is a porker, but he is the one that loves to
    chase me the most!  I feed free choice, BTW.  I personally don't
    like the idea of them possibly going hungry because of a weight
    problem.....

    I feed them Science Diet lite, and have food down most of the time
    since we're not always home for mealtime.  Whenever we get regular SD,
    they have a hard time going back to the lite formula.
    
    shannon
    

    Thanks for all the advice. Sandy, I'd forgotten about your suggestion
    from the old file to nuke the Less Active. I'll give that a try, since
    we still have some of that left.  
    
    Michelle-- are you giving Nippa 2/3 cup total in a day? I'm a little
    concerned, because we're giving Poppy less than that, and she's still
    not losing weight. 
    
    I'm trying to get her to exercise more, but it's a challenge. This is
    the cat who lies down to play with the kitty teaser. She'll run after
    her toys for a bit then plop down and roll over on her back. 
    
    Thanks again for the help. 
    
    Kate
      

    KAte, have you brought her to the vet at all?  It's possible that Poppy
    might have a thyroid problem or something....but it's something to ask
    your vet.  The bag recommended 1/2 to 2/3 cup total for the entire day 
    for her to lose weight, but she's shifting to a lower weight bracket.  
    Personally, I don't think she's starving due to the reduced amount 
    because she has been actually leaving some recently.
    
    The newest challenge for us will be to switch over to the D/D for 
    sensitive tummies.
    
    
    	Michele & Nippa
    

re: tough love at the food bowl...

if the cat "doesn't like it as much" as brand x, the wailing at the food
dish shouldn't be an issue...if the cat "hates it and refuses to eat it"..
then, yes, you can expect wailing.  I know my cats will eat enough to be
healthy if they are physically healthy themselves.  I also know they will
harass me if they aren't happy with the food dish contents...how much I am
harassed depends on how much they don't like the food.  I'm trying to get
to a happy medium...a little harassment for food they like less than their
favorite..with supplemental meals of favored canned food for the two "lean
playing machines" in the family.  Hannah and Sam have to diet - so the food
dish is going to be filled with Max light and it is going to be removed from
view for evenings and overnight...leaving it around for eating during the
day.  If that doesn't do it, then we will have to do fully-controlled feedings.
Then, I'm going to hear the wailing, I'm sure.

When we first got our kittens, they preferred the Iams Dry regular to the Iams
kitten.  Our older cat Tigger ended up eating the kitten food, and he really
didn't need the extra calories.  We finally ended up giving the youngsters the
regular, figuring they'd eat more of it, and feeding Tigger the less active.
The little ones actually prefer the less active if given a dry bowl of each--
because the smaller kibbles are easier to eat?  Or to preserve their girlish
figures? :-)  At least they will eat their regular+canned mix on a regular
basis!

Jill

    Well, once you find a food that works for her, try putting her on
    a feeding schedule.  This was recommended to me by a friend a few
    years ago and a vet I talked to this weeked just recommended it to
    folks at the Vallejo cat show.  She says to put the food out for approx.
    1/2 hour in the morning then pick it up.  Do this again in the evening 
    with fresh food.  It may take a few days but the cats will adjust to the
    idea that eating right when the food is put down is probably the best
    thing to do.  Mine usually figure it out by the 2nd day.  
    
    Weight-loss will not show up right away as the body usually begins to
    store food thinking it is heading for starvation.  It should re-adjust
    after a while.  Also, she recommends increasing exercise.  This is
    where I get into trouble too.  Amelia is one of those cats that would
    rather lay there and play than get up.  The way I see it, if I can get
    her up once or twice, that is still an improvement and even if she 
    plays while laying down, she's still moving some part of her body and 
    that has got to be burning at least a few calories.
    
    So, mine are back on a schedule.  This actually works when I remember
    to pick the food up consistently.  Also, I've bought Amelia a little 
    kitty sweat suit and kitty aerobics/toning tape (just kidding).  
    
    Jan
                                                   

re: feeding schedule

well, we are on the "food available from 06:00AM to 06:00 PM" eating schedule...
which will gradually turn into the "food available from 06:00 AM to 08:00 AM
and 06:00 PM to 08:00 PM" feeding schedule over the next several weeks.
I will also give my two lean cats extra munchies at night and in the morning
(if they will eat them - so far, Dilly looks at it in the morning and says,
"no, I don't think so...").  This should put Hana and Sam on a healthier
eating plan - at least Hana's furious midnight munching sessions won't
continue.  Last night, she knew the food wasn't there - she checked repeatedly,
but she wasn't wailing or anything...Sam may not have eaten much at all
yesterday as he is a night feeder.  Hopefully, I can adjust his schedule over
the next several weeks.  I will be watching his feeding carefully - we may
have to adjust our night feeding times to be a bit later to accomodate my
"vampire cat".

re: exercise...actually, I can jog Hana very effectively if I just walk from
one end of the house to the other while looking busy - it works perfectly.
Hana jogs along with me to make sure I don't do anything she would miss....if
I get out the flying-neon-pink-furry-mouse toy for a rousing game, however,
she watches the younger folk play furiously...and doesn't move a muscle.
So, now the young'uns get a good game...and then I jog Hana up and down the
hall at least 4 times - I will work her up to 10 times an evening over the
next few weeks.  I look a mite strange while I do this...walking briskly
back and forth, encouraging Missy Hana to go faster the whole time...but,
I'm a cat person and it is pretty much expected that we are a bit weird.

    I checked with my daughter (who actually doles out the cat food),
    and she's been giving Poppy 3/4 cup, which is more than I thought. 
    So, we've agreed to cut the portions and do it in two servings
    a day.   
    
    Poppy also appears to have stopped the "wolfing." There was actually
    a good bit of food left in her bowl when I left the house this morning. 
    She's taken to hiding from me in the mornings, to avoid being trapped
    and imprisoned (we limit her to a certain part of the house when we're
    not there). Usually, all I have to do is put a few piece of dry food
    in her bowl and shake it, and she's there in a flash. Not this morning.
    I had to go looking for her. 
    
    To answer your question, Michelle, her vet doesn't believe there's
    anything wrong with her (He does tell her she has more diet
    problems than Oprah, though). 
    
    We're going to give the regimented feeding and exercise program
    a chance and see how it goes. 
    
    Dian -- maybe you could videotape Hannah's exercise program and sell it?
    
    kate
     
                                  

>>>  Dian -- maybe you could videotape Hannah's exercise program and sell it?
    
Oh heavens, I can see it now...Hana, queen of the feline exercise video tapes..
She would like that, I think.....however, I'd have to change my name and get
plastic surgery....

			D

Hi. I haven't entered a note since the old file, but I thought I would share
with you how I solved my 'fat cat, skinny cat' problem. I have 2 cats.
Raisin is (was) a 15 pound blimp female. Snickers is a large thin male, was 
down to 9 pounds, and at that weight looked completely anorexic (to the point 
where the vet said he needed to gain 2 pounds). Raisin ate everything in sight.
Snickers would not eat a meal, he only wanted to snack all the time. It was
driving me crazy and getting worse. SO.

I bought one of those electonic cat doors, and installed it in the side of a
cardboard box that is large enough for Snickers to get in and eat.
Snickers has the opener on his collar. He gets all that he wants
of Nutro Max Cat, and really enjoys his private feeding box. It is under a
coffee table so Raisin can't try to get in the top (which is now firmly taped
shut). Raisin gets 2 meals a day of Hills RD, a total of between 2/3 and 1
cup a day, in the kitchen where she always ate. It has been almost a year, 
Snickers has gained 2 pounds, Raisin has lost 3. YEA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Raisin gave up long ago trying to get into Snickers box, she just can't. And
Snickers wouldn't touch Raisin's RD when he has his great Max Cat. If I get a
3rd cat, it can either use the extra opener and Snickers box, or I will
invest in yet another opener and box. Right now I use the extra opener (they
come with 2) to put his food in the box.

I have gotten a few weird looks from people who ask me what the box is for in
the family room, but most people are amazed that I came up with such a
contraption just for my kitties.

This was not a cheap feeding solution, the door cost $150. But it really
works, and I don't have to fight with the cats about who gets to eat how
mush of what food. I had originally planned on building Snickers a plywood
box (kind of like a dog house) but haven't needed to. If Raisin ever
decides to chew through the cardboard, I will.

Debbie Raisin and Snickers

clever idea....and worth thinking on if the current plan doesn't work...

				D

    
    Does anyone have any experience with a cat food called OLD MOTHER
    HUBBARD.  My cat has been eating 9 lives and My vet told me to put my
    cat on a diet.  I tried all different ways of feeding her the science
    diet but she wouldn't eat it.  She does eat the dry food from science
    diet but not the canned food.  She seems to like the OMH food because
    like the 9 lives they have a variety of food.  I was just wondering if
    the OMH food was a good type of food for a diet.  My cat is 11 years
    old and is a house cat.  But she's hugeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.  She was
    up to 25 pounds but is now a little under 20 pounds.  She is a big cat
    but she's a happy cat.
    
    
    Matt

    My 2 will EAT OMH...but not crave it.  They're happier with 9-lives.
    
    Two paws sideways on OMH...not paws up, but not exactly paws down,
    either.
    
    K.C.

    RE:  Nine Lives (canned)
    
    I would never buy this stuff, thinking that my cats would hate it since
    when I was growing up, all of the family cats would blow lunch on it.
    Well, when it went on sale 4/$1.00, I bought 4 cans just to try and now
    it is all they will eat!!  They don't even get sick on it.  This is
    fine with me, since I haven't purchased it for more than 4/$1.00 so
    far.  It always seems to go on sale somewhere.  They like the "Lean"
    varieties and prefer the morsels with gravy, not the ground.
    
    
    -Roberta
    

    
    I didn't realize they came in a lean variety ?
    
    
    Matt

    It's been hard for me to find - not all the stores carry it.  My three
    love it, and the protein % works out really well for Pippin - who
    couldn't get it in her mouth fast enough the first time I set it out. 
    Bless her, she was sooo excited she never came up for air.  Anyway I
    stock up when I do come across it.
    
    Giudi

    I find it at Super Stop & Shop.  They always run great sales on cat
    food.
    

    Hi -
    
    Does anyone know anything about a food called Nature's Recipe
    Optimum Feline Diet, specifically the Lite version? I got a
    bunch of samples of different foods this weekend for Poppy
    to try in her quest to shed a few pounds, and she seems to like
    this. The ingredient list is too long to type in, but there doesn't
    seem to be anything bad in it. The primary ingredients are chicken
    meal, ground corn, rice, oats, lamb meal, wheat, fish meal, mutton
    and lamb fat. 
    
    Here's the nutritional analysis:
    
    	Crude protein	31% minimum
    	crude fat	6% minimum
    	Crude fiber	8% maximum
    	Moisture	10% max.
    	Ash		6% max.
    	Phosphorous	.4% min.
    	Magnesium	.2% max. 
    
   Has anyone tried this? As I said, Poppy seems to like it but doesn't
    scarf it up like the Max Cat. 
    
    Thanks,
    
    Kate
    

I tried it...or I should say I tried to get my cats to try it!  None of them
would touch the stuff.  They just wouldn't eat it.  Even the ferals didn't
care for it.  The racoons and opossums, however, found it to be delicious.....

Mary

    You know, Mary, I think I tried it before too, and Poppy just sat
    there and looked at me as if to say, "Get real, human. You call this
    food?" (which is exactly what she did when I gave her the Fromm's
    this morning.)
    
    I don't know why, but she really seems to go for the Nature's
    Recipe this time. She went through two sample bags. Just her way
    of showing that a starving cat (hardly!) will eat anything. 
    
    kate
    

Well, Kate, it's obvious she doesn't take good notes!  She's figure it out....
as soon as you buy a bigger bag, she'll remember that she's supposed to hate
that stuff.

Or maybe it's an even numbered year and this this year she'll eat it, next
year, she won't....go figure....

Mary

    
    What do you do wiv a cat that will hardly eat cat food? Like, he won't
    eat crunchy bits or tender vitals any more, and is showing signs of
    going off Whiskas and Sheba too! Oh but he'll eat ham and chicken
    breast at 4.50 a lb won't he! I'm sick of it. He is sooo stupid to,
    everytime you go in the kitchen he starts meowing. Well he can starve.
    I'm not about to feed the cat like he was Mrs Pumphrey's Tricky-Woo
    in the Herriot animlas series on TV.
    

	Hey Chris - maybe he's just trying to tell you that he has a
	refined palate, and that he's about had it with that cheap stuff :^}

	Have you tried some of the 'premium' canned foods, like Amore,
	or Fancy Feast?  I find that mine like a variety, and if I try to
	feed them the same stuff for any length of time, they're sure to
	go off it.

	Sandy

RE:  .59

	One thing you might check is his teeth -- we had one cat who
	became quite thin although the vet didn't think he was seriously
	underweight.  He also didn't seem very interested in his cat
	food although he was more than willing to eat "people food" like 
	the turkey or roast beef that I bought to make our sandwiches.
	Tests by two different vets showed no problems, until I finally
	made the connection that he would eat SOFT food and that 
	pointed to a dental problem.  After having his teeth cleaned,
	when two just fell out on their own, he is now a regular to-
	the-bottom-of-the-dish eater.

	Just a thought, it seemed so obvious once I figured it out but
	it sure took me a while...


	Jan

    
    Well how much does that cost, Jan?  And yes, Sandy, he likes Amore and
    stuff - but the point is he should like crunchy bits - cuz that's the
    stuff that's most hygenic to leave lying around all day, especially
    withg the warm weather coming.
    

    Also check for a possible abscess in her mouth.

    As anyone else tried the Whiska's Gourment wet cat food.  My
    local supermarket does not carry the Whiska's Expert...but they
    do carry this one.  They come in only 6 oz cans..and are usually
    either 4 for $1.00 or 10 for $3.00.   All my cats just love
    all the varieties.   
    
    There are four varieties and each can has a Ash Content of 2.5.
    even the fish flavors.  The varieties are Turkey Giblet Cuisine in Aspic, 
    Tender Beef cuisine in Aspic, Salmon and Crab Cuisine in Aspic, and 
    Whitefish and shrimp Cuisine in Aspic.  
    
    Does anyone know what Aspic is?????
    
    Sandy
    
              

    Sandy, one of my (many) cookbooks has this gorgeous centerfold of a
    chicken in aspic dish.  The accompanying recipe is quite challenging
    cause it goes on for pages!  The dish is gorgeous to look at and when I
    saw your note, well, I had the biggest laugh.  I can imagine a bowl of
    cat food decorated the same way as this "chicken centerfold"  :^)

    Anyway, to answer your question - aspic is a jellylike substance.  It's
    made with the juice from various foods such as meat or vegetables. 
    Some foods with aspic tend to have a fake appearance in that they look
    like they are coated with plastic.

    Thanks Cheryl...the cat food does smell better then most cat
    foods...but still the appearance still does not make me feel 
    like I want to join them and chow down!!!!  So that is what
    Aspic is...there is alot of jelly substance in the cans!!
    
    About your recipe...I hate to cook....(hate it..hate it) so if I
    ever saw a recipe that was more then 6 lines I would probably
    throw the book away!  
    
    Sandy..

    aspic == high class jello
    

    Hi all,
    
     Has anyone ever heard of BIL-JAC cat food? I was at the home show in
    Providence, RI last Friday, and got a couple of samples of this food.
    It looks a lot like rabbit pellets, and my girls seemed to enjoy the
    change. I also got samples of Iams, which they went nuts over. I talked
    the guy at the booth out of six samples! What a charmer, huh?
    
     Anyway, I got the pamphlet with the BIL-JAC food, and figured I'd
    enter the info on it in case anyone is interested.
    
     
    BIL-JAC CAT FOOD (NON-FROZEN) (I don't get this part, since it's dry)
    
     All of the fresh ingredients in Bil-Jac Cat Food are carefully
    formulated to be low in magnesium and ash. This special fromulation
    helps your cat live a longer life by reducing the risk of FUS (Feline
    Urological Syndrome) and other kidney and bladder diseases.
    
    Gauranteed analysys:
    
    Crude Protien, not less than..........31.0%
    Crude Fat, not less than..............18.0%
    Crude Fiber, not more than.............3.5%
    Moisture, not more than...............10.0%
    Ash, not more than.....................6.5%
    
    Ingredients:
    
    Chicken by-products, corn, dried beet pulp, chicken by-product meal,
    animal liver, brewers dried yeast, cane molasses, eggs, salt, sodium
    propionate (a preservative), taurine, vitamin A acetate, vitamin D3
    supplement, vitamin E supplement, riboflavin supplement, niacin,
    biotin, cholinr chloride, folic acid, thiamine mononitrate, pyridoxine
    hydrochloride, DL-methionine, BHA (a preservative), vitamin B12
    supplement, L-lysine, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of
    vitamin K), D-calcium pantothenate, manganous oxide, inisitol, ascorbic
    acid, iron sulfate, copper sulfate, zinc oxide, cobalt carbonate,
    potassium iodide, sodium selenite.
    
    VITAMIN ASSAY PER KILOGRAM *   
    
    Vitamin A..............38,500   USP
    Vitamin D3..............2,200   IU
    Vitamin E.................160   IU
    Vitamin C..................25.0 mg.
    Vitamin K...................1.5 mg.
    Vitamin B12.................0.2 mg.
    Riboflavin.................28.0 mg.
    Folic Acid..................1.7 mg.
    Niacin.....................80.0 mg.
    Choline Chloride........3,800.0 mg.
    Thiamine...................11.5 mg.
    Biotin......................0.2 mg.
    d-Pantothenic Acid.........22.0 mg.
    Pyridoxine..................8.5 mg.
    Inositol...................90.0 mg.
    
    MINERAL ASSAY PER KILOGRAM *
    
    Calcium.....................0.85 %
    Phosphorus..................0.75 %
    Magnesium...................0.10 %
    Potassium...................0.55 %
    Sodium......................0.45 %
    Zinc......................130.0  mg.
    Iron......................210.0  mg.
    Manganese..................25.0  mg.
    Iodine......................2.6  mg.
    Copper.....................52.0  mg.
    Selenium....................0.25 mg.
    
    * Average Analysis Dry Basis
    
    
    FEEDING RECOMMENDATIONS:
    
    We recommend a portion-contrilloed method for feeding Bil-Jac Cat Food.
    Use the following Chart to to determine the daily amount to feed. The
    recommended amounts may vary according to the age, environment and
    activity of your cat. Kittens should be fed on a free choice basis.
    Fresh water should be kept available at all times.
    
    RECOMMENDED FEEDING AMOUNTS:
    
    Weight (lbs)        Cups per day
    3 to 5 .............1/3 to 1/2
    5 to 10.............1/2 to 2/3
    10 to 15............2/3 to 1
    15 to 20............1 to 1 1/3
    
    
    
    Now that My hands are cramped up beyond belief, I hope this helps
    someone in their choice of chow!
    
    Love,
    
     Y
    
    
    

    I am feeding my cats BIL-JAC along with MAX CAT and IAMS. They will 
    eat BIL-JAC but are not wild about it. There favorite is still MAX-CAT.
    I got the Bil-JAC at a show, 18 lbs for $12. It was a show special.
    I probably won't buy it again. They aren't thrilled with it and it
    doesn't come in lite which I am trying to get my guys to eat. 
    
    Your right it does look just like rabbit pellets.
    
                                                Alice

    Are there known side affects from canned cat food?  My husband and I
    were sitting at the table the other day and suddenly there was a very
    fowl smell.  Chubs was nearby and was "queefing" up a storm!  

    He had some kind of beef and liver food that day and that's the only
    thing I can think of that would have caused him to turn into a queef
    monster, P.U.!  Could it be liver in canned cat food that is doing
    this?  If so, I definitely won't buy that type of food again. :^)

    Cheryl,
    
    It is my opinion that any type of cat food can go bad!!  I'm not
    sure it is a certain brand because I have bought Old Mother
    Hubbard and found one can had a fowl smell and the cats wouldn't
    touch it...but yet I opened a second can (same brand) and it didn't 
    smell bad..and the cats ate it.  
    
    I have even had cases where canned people's tuna smelled really bad...
    and I didn't dare to eat it or give it to my cats.
    
    Since cat food is not date coded...you have no idea how long it
    sat in the warehouse, truck, in the sun, or on a shelf.
    
    Sandy
                                             

    Sandy, I don't think the food was bad since both cats gobbled it right
    up.  (would they even know better if it was bad?)  What is bad is the
    smell coming out the other end of Chubs!!!  I'm glad we didn't have
    company that night.  :^)

    Cheryl, dont you usually feed Chubs & Zelda dry food? If so, canned
    food may give them the parfume de la pew! I know when I give my two a
    canned treat you can tell when they hit the box! -whoa- Cheese & eggs
    really have them wafting up the room....
    
    Roslyn
    
    P.S. Might be a good place for a stick up! ;^>

    Ugh, is it all flavors of canned foods that do this to cats?  Our guys
    just *have* to split a can of food in the morning else they drive us
    insane.  Picture a small herd of sheep wandering aimlessly throughout
    the house until they hear the sound of the can opening...  You can just
    about imagine what we go through each day.  Lea will sit off to the
    side and cry to go out before she'll cry for food, but the other two
    are pigs in cat costumes!

    When we adopted them, they had been abandoned and were left with (dried
    out) dried cat crunchies, so we like to give them a variety of foods,
    and they love the cheapo 9-lives.  They had Fancy Feast for a special
    treat last week.  I've never witnessed cats smiling before.  :^)

    Maybe we'll just have to stay away from the cheese and liver types of
    food to see what happens to the queefsters!  This process of
    elimination should be interesting!

well, it's marginally better than getting a faceful of "fish-breath" from
your little darlings as you are waking up because your roommate gets up
very early and feeds the little angels the most horrid smelling fish food
imaginable...which, of course, they love.  The fishier the better is our
motto at the wilde house.

    A friend of mine was telling me last night that it's not good
    to feed tuna (even occasionally) to a neutered male cat. She
    told me it causes some kind of disease.
    
    True/false ???
    
    

    I do know that it's not good to feed a lot of the dark tuna
    to cats as it's not absorbed by the digestion very well, and
    weight loss can occur.  7exit
    

     I,ve been feeding my boys( 12 yr olds) tuna ( human kind) forever
    and have seen no problems.. They are also very large guys.
    
    Diane

    I believe that an exclusive diet of tuna (or, presumably one that's
    heavy on tuna) is not good because it lacks some vital nutrient.
    I also suspect that the recent reports of contaminants in fish,
    including canned tuna, are probably a factor.

    I believe that an exclusive diet of tuna (or, presumably one that's
    heavy on tuna) is not good because it lacks some vital nutrient.
    I also suspect that the recent reports of contaminants in fish,
    including canned tuna, are probably a factor.
    
    I give my guys a can of tuna every few weeks as a treat.
    

    Tuna or any kind of canned food or human food is generally not good for
    neutered male cats because they are prone to Feline Urinary Syndrome
    (FUS) where the urinary tract gets blocked by crystals (kind of like
    gall stones).  This is potentially fatal for cats, especially if the
    owner doesn't pay much attention to the  cats toilet habits.  I had a
    cat that had this problem.  Just after we moved to a new place, I had a
    party; that night I noticed blood in Blaise's urine.  It turned out
    that the stress of the move and strange people had aggravated the FUS
    (which I didn't know he had).  He was fine after a change to low ash
    diet because he wasn't completely blocked.
    
    Anyway, the ash content in tuna (or any fish) and canned cat food is
    the dangerous ingredient; although, I believe they make low ash canned
    food now.
    
    Best,
    -M-

    My husband always claims that tuna is addicting to cats.  This is
    probably untrue - he just doesn't want me to spoil the cats by giving
    them his lunch. :^)

    RE: .5
    
    How about an occasional "treat" of a little tuna?  Is that ok?
    
    BTW, I feed my 4-year old neutererd male strictly dry (IAMS) cat-food.
     

    I give my two-year old (female) 1/3 of a can of white, in water, tuna
    once a month, she LOVES the juice that it is packed in (that I would
    normally drain off and throw out). I find this a lot safer than the
    "fish" flavored wet food from Mother Hubbard and Triumph, which of late
    I have been picking rather large bones from (!!) before I let her eat
    it.
    
    I think a strict diet of just dry food is not good for their digestion,
    coat, or bowels. But that is just my opinion. She has beautiful fur
    that is silky and lusterous (and I only groom her 3X a week tops), I
    think it has to do with the wet food (she gets 1 tablespoon a night)
    with a 1/3 cup dry out all day.

    I'm sure that little snacks once in a while won't hurt.  I still fed
    Blaise corn, artichoke hearts, "peoplefood" meat once in a long while;
    although, he did not have a severe case of FUS.
    
    re: . 84   males are more prone to FUS attacks than females; although,
    I have heard of females with the problem.

    I do give mine a tiny bit of tuna periodically.  Usually only a 
    spoonful once every couple of weeks.  Last time I gave them the 
    tuna water (don't use the oil packed kind) instead of the actual
    tuna and they seemed quite happy with that.
    
    Jan

    I give my nine a treat of human tuna once a week.......that is
    normally right before out Saturday night catnip parties!!
    
    Sandy

    Cats that are fed tuna can develop a disease called Steatitis or
    "yellow fat disease".  Steatitis can occur when the body is lacking
    vitamin E.  The problem can further be aggravated if the cat is
    consuming a diet consisting primarily of cats foods containing red tuna
    or a diet that is high in polyunsaturated fats.  Steatitis can be fatal
    if left untreated.
    
    Jo

    I have a question about 9-lives canned cat food.  Why is it that 90% of
    the flavors have a flip top but the few tuna varieties require the use
    of a can opener?  You'd think that the manufacturer would want anything
    with "tuna" on the label to be in a different type of container than
    the people food tuna such as Chicken of the Seas, Bumble Bee, etc. 
    Wouldn't it seem obvious to convert over to the flip top for all of
    their varieties?  (besides, then we wouldn't need two can openers in
    the house - one for cat food, one for people food)  Perhaps I should
    write them a letter and ask but was wondering if anyone knew why they
    did this?  Cheryl

Since I make Bumble Bea's food, we don't feed her from a can,
but she still comes running if she hears the can opener because
she thinks it's a can of tuna and she is going to get a bit.

I have to wait until she is not around to prepare any cans for
recycling (like removing the lids).

In fact, when we were ready to leave on a trip recently and she
didn't turn up after much calling, I stood on the back porch open-
ing a can of tuna. She showed up eventually.


                                           Susan

    "Two can openers in the house?  One for people food and one for
    cat food?"  That never occurred to me, but then no one's ever mistaken
    me for a good housekeeper.
    

    Ditto Karen!  :-)  I have one can opener, which I inadvertantly threw
    out in the trash last week by accident after feeding the feral colony
    out back....but I used it for my food and theirs!  Haven't died yet!
    And neither have they (though with the crap they put in people food we
    should ALL be dead!)  :-)))
    
    Nan

    One can opener here, too! (;  I even take it up to the barn
    to open cans there, and we are still livin'! (:
    
    L

    Well, allright then.  We each had a can opener when we got married.  In
    fact, we have three.  A well equipped kitchen although we currently are
    missing a floor and subflooring.  Minor details!  :^)

    RE: .91-.94
    
    Thank you!!  I was beginning to thing that I was strange for only using
    one canopener andwas wondering what on earth I could "catch" from cat
    food!! (-:
    
    RE: the tuna .. I always just figured that it might be because Tuna
    didn't preserve very well in the flip-top cans, so they HAD to put it
    in regular cans.
    
    Holly
    

    
    Cheryl, if you have three can-openers, then I believe it is your solemn
    duty to pass one along to me (since I'm so vacant-brained that I threw
    mine out with the trash)!
    
    :-)))
    
    N

    Nancy, I'll trade you one can opener for Sophe.  
    
    (no, I really did NOT say that! :^)

    YES YOU DID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    But no, you can't have Sophie because now I'm hopelessly in love with
    her (even if she is an absolute nazi to my other cats).  :-)
    
    However, I do have two new black kittens I'm fostering off my back
    porch that are in dire need of a home.....  a boy and a girl.  Five
    or six weeks old.  Rescued them yesterday ....  (I love black cats...
    these two will be hard to part with, they are SO loving).
    
    So...how bout it?
    
    Nan

    We don't feed canned to Nippa, so I don't have to worry about the can
    opener thing.  however, I absolutly hate the smell of tuna!  I
    discovered that the metal part of the can opener (electric) can go
    into the dishwasher and come out like new - and no tuna stink!

    Hi!
    
     I have a question regarding low ash dry food for adult cats. I do
    volunteer work for a shelter, and last week one of the more experienced
    volunteers told me the thing they needed most right now for the shelter
    was low ash dry food. I went to Pet Supply Depot last night to try to
    buy some for the shelter, but none of the bags actually said "low ash".
    The lowest ash content I found was 5%. I forget the brand name on this
    one, but it was right there with the IAMS, and Science Diet, and Old
    Mother Hubbard.
    
     So, here's the question. Does anyone out there know what percentage of
    ash in dry is considered "low ash", or even better, a brand name that I
    can look for? I'd like to bring some tomorrow night when I go to the
    shelter again.
    
     Thanks in advance!
    
    
     Yonee
                                                        

    I give my boys Blue Seal Feed Kat Kare, which has low ash, low magnesium. I
    forget what the percent is, but it's comparable to the more expensive
    dry foods. I pay $6.10 for a 10 lb bag.
    
    ng 

    
    Yonee Yonee Yonee ....
    
    I would think ALL Science Diet brands would be low in ash, as well
    as IAMS and Maxcat....  I hope so, anyway, as that is what I feed
    my gang to the exclusion of all else.  No wet.  
    
    Haven't had any bouts with infections yet.....
    
    N
    
    P.S.  See you at the shelter Thursday...I may be bringing the 
          dynamic duo...for adoption...much to Stephen's distress. 
    	  (sigh)

    But Nan!
    
     Remember? There's a bin of Science Diet, a bin of Science Diet Lite,
    regular adult dry, tender vittles for special diets, and a pitcher of
    low ash adult! It makes me think that they are not all the same. Plus,
    the Science Diet, if I remember correctly had up to 6.5% ash. Not that
    that is high I suppose, but I'm wondering if the stuff the shelter
    labels low ash adult is something I need to get from Dr. LeVan tonight
    when I bring my two girls in for their boosters?
    
     Would Lenora know if I contacted her? Do you know her node?
    
    Yonee who-is-really-confused-at-all-the-different-foods!
    

    
    I wonder if it a prescription diet food that you have to get through
    your vet.......you could call Dr. Levan ... she would know, as would
    her staff....or yes, call Lenora....or write her (that's better) at
    DLNVAX::PALMER.  She might be able to tell you, even though it is
    someone else at the shelter who handles the food distribution.
    
    :-)
    
    me

    Hi,
    
     I called Lenora (I used my trusty volunteer list!) and she is going to
    find out some specific brands that the shelter considers low ash. She
    said she doesn't think it's a prescription thing. I tend to think not
    also, as when I poured it out last week, it looked like a mixture of a
    few kinds.
    
     I'll report back when I find out what the shelter considers low ash
    adult dry.
    
     Yonee

    About 5 years ago, I had to buy low ash food for my cat who had FUS,
    and I remember quite a few dry foods that were labelled as such.  But
    it seems to me that I recently read or heard that the ash is not the
    problem with FUS, but rather it is the magnesium content that irritates
    it.  I used to buy Science Diet C/D and Perform.
    
    Michelle

    I know that Otis is eating the wrong food but I have had (and continue
    to have) a problem weaning him.  He will NOT eat.
    
    I have wasted well over $100 on cat food (Science Diet etc.) and
    he sniffs and walks away.  Bowls of food have sat and dried and
    he will not touch them.  I spoke to the vet about it and she 
    said that he will eventually eat - but just to make sure - have
    plenty of water around as he needs that in order to survive.
    No dice ... he WILL NOT EAT.  It's not even a battle of wills
    anymore - I am concerned that the food he is eating will (if 
    not ALREADY) have negatives effects on him.  
    
    He's a 21 lb. Maine Coone who is presently eating "Fresh Catch"
    (I know I know ... don't yell at me) and is 3 years old.  No
    problems yet - he is in dynamite health - but I want to change
    his eating habits BEFORE he gets into problems.  He will eat
    REAL shrimp and REAL liver but he can't have a steady diet of
    those things because he wouldn't be getting the necessary
    supplements and vitamins.
    
    What do I do?  People have said that he WILL eat when he's hungry
    but trust me - he goes without.  The last time he lost a pound
    because he WOULD NOT EAT.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Marilyn 
    

    Have you tried Max Cat?  My 4 love it.  They do not like Iams or
    Science Diet.  They also love canned Whiskas and Fresh Catch. (Given as
    special treat and to fatten Misha up when he was sick.)
    
    Steffi

    Try dry food (one that's okay in terms of low ash and so on).  It won't
    spoil if it sits around, and some cats prefer the dry to canned.  I
    take those extra pounds more seriously than I used to since Sweetie
    developed diabetes.
    

    Any of the pet food stores will give you a free sample
    of any of the dry foods.  All you have to do is ask!
    
    

    
            try putting the juice from his favorite food or mix in some
    of it with what you want him to eat, then slowly reduce the amount of
    the "tasty" stuff, until he is on the stuff you want him to be on.
    My sister did that, when her Coon became stubborn.  It worked in a few
    weeks.
    
           

    re: .107
    
    I had the same problem too, but now Nippa is eating SD R/D - the
    serious diet food.  It took about a month of weaning her off the Max
    Cat Lite (hobby diet food according to the vet) before she'd eat
    it alone.  Now she gobbles it right up....unless of course there's
    Iams around....that's the number one favorite!  I was prepared to be
    stubborn about it as the vet had the serious talk w/ me about her
    weight.
    
    
    Michele & Nippa
    
    p.s.
    
    Most places will take the food back and refund your money if your cat
    won't eat it.
    

    
     Our Kitty, just loves cheese, in the mornings when I'm having 
     my breakfast she sits so patiently so when I 'm done eating 
     she can get a slice of cheese. She actualy does not finish her
     own food until I sprinkle some bits of cheese on it.
     Is this a bad diet? Shall I break the habit?
    
     Shaw
     

    Re: .113
    
    I give Holly about three really tiny pieces of cheese (tiny = 1/4 inch
    on a side) when I'm eating it, since she's a cheese hound.  I've always
    thought that it isn't a good idea to give her too much since it might
    throw off her "digestive system" (I think cheese causes constipation?)
                               
    I give her several small pieces rather than one large one under the
    theory that she'll think she's getting more.
    

    
    Thanks Karen, 
    
    It seems then that I've been giving her too much. 
    I'm glad I asked. 
    
    Shaw

    Well, I'm not certain about the cheese;  I never checked with the
    vet.  It's just a guess on my part.
    

    My 365 days cat calendar had the following yesterday: "Variety is the
    Spice of Life.  A cat's diet should consist of some of each of the
    three types of cat foods--canned meat, soft-moist products, and dried
    food, as well as a fresh meal twice a week."  Do you think that is a
    wish list written (or at least dictated) by a cat? ;-)  Do any of you
    follow that suggestion?  Am I depriving my babies by just giving them
    Max Cat?  (Feelings of guilt rising ;-).)
    
    Steffi

    - .1
    
    Sounds good to me and what I do with Otis.  He eats a bit of
    Tiffany's Purina Cat Chow - a handful of Tender Vittles and
    a can of Fresh Catch - 1/2 at 5:30 a.m. and 1/2 at 5:30 p.m.!
    It's the fresh meal (mine ????) that I don't do as he isn't
    into cooked people food - although would kill for shrimp,
    salmon, lobster and scallops.  He doesn't like cheese or
    popcorn but does like Virginia Ham and spaghetti sauce.
    
    It would be nice to know that they really could be fed the way
    you described but somehow I feel it's a cat's WISH LIST!
    
    M
    

Don't some of your canned cat foods contain cheese? I may be wrong.

I just discovered that my kitten Alex likes cheedar cheese. I just break off a
couple of small corners as I am eating it.

He also likes Tapioca pudding. I have trouble trying to eat it as he tries to
crawl in as well. He comes running every time he sees me with a container of it
now. The amount he gets is small but it keeps him busy for awhile as he tries to
lap it out of the container. The other night he had the container stuck to his
face as he was sitting up licking it.

Typically I feed him canned food in the morning and he is free to eat the
dry Science Diet whenever he wants.

    Most soft moist cat foods contain propylene glycol, a chemical that can
    cause anemia.  There was a write up about it in the CFA Alamac a year
    or so ago, the Winn Foundation funded a study about it.  I entered the
    info in Feline_V1 is anyone wants to read about it.
    
    Jo

    Has anyone else experienced a problem with coloring in foods?  I have
    to use Iams, Science Diet, etc (brown colored) instead of Purina Cat
    Chow. My Balinese cat gets sick on it virtually everytime!

    Most of the dry catfoods that are red, such as Friskies, will
    make one of mine upchuck every time....

    Yup, mine too.  Especially Silver.  I stick to the Iams and most
    recently, Maxcat.  Kyra LOVES this stuff!!
    
    Holly
    

Hannah was leaving me soggy wads on the floor nearly every day until I 
switched her to tender vittles and Iams only.  Now she only heaves a few
times a month - still annoying, but much easier to live with.

    The twins have very sensitive tummies, and food dye is a big stomach
    upsetter. I've heard it said that cats with a lot of Siameese in them
    tend to have this reaction to food dyes.
    
    Deb

    Yup, I will second what Deb stated.  Taja is a Siamese/Himalayan X, and
    inherited the sensitive tummy from both breeds.  He reacts adversely to
    anything with red dyes.  He loves Pounce treats, and when I bought the
    shrimp flavor, which are red, he promptly heaved them back into the
    carpet.
    

    Gee, what you learn in this file!! My siamese has always had a
    sensitive tummy, we get little treats all over the house! He is eating
    SD because of a problem with FUS a few years back.  Is there a food
    without the dye for a cat with FUS??  My tabby hardly ever gets
    sick-only hairballs (ick!)

    C/D is the prescriptin diet that cats are put on if they have FUS
    truble, has no dyes. Hills tells me that Science diet doesn't, either.
    
    However, my twins have truble with Iams. Iams doesn't contain any dyes,
    but has a higher fat content than Hills Science Diet, and Panther and
    Eirene find it "too rich" for their system.
    
    Deb

    Has anyone heard of the cat food called "Show Results" ?
    
    I got a sample of it from the Marlboro show.  Kyra wouldn't touch it,
    but the others seemed to eat it with no problem at all.
    
    Well, I entered a drawing at the show and got a call from the people
    last Sunday.  It seems as if I've won a 20 lb bag of the stuff!!!
    
    I'm wondering if anyone has tried this stuff and how their cats reacted
    to it.  Also, if anyone knows any of the nutritional information on the
    food.
    
    They also will set up a DELIVERY SERVICE!!  Where they estimate how
    long it takes you to go through a 20 lb bag and will deliver you one
    when you need it!  I go through a 20 lb bag about once a month.  They
    said that they will deliver a 20 lb bag once a month if I need it!
    
    Cost .. $24.99 including delivery....  A bit expensive, but kind of
    worth it when you live on the 3rd floor!!
    
    Holly
    

We have also been trying to deal with cats on a mono-nutrient kick - ours are 
crazy about only one food - kidneys. They will also eat the occasional serving
of beef heart or liver, but the only thing they eat with real gusto is kidneys.
We tried to get them off this diet by resolutely giving them only canned food
in addition to the dired that's always there, but they were always hungry. They
began begging when we ate and would eat anything we gave them - noodles with
pesto sauce, and canned corn to name just a few. Since they seemed to be so 
unhappy with this arrangement we decided to give them the kidneys every 3 days or
so. Trouble is, they only eat every 3 days now, as you can well imagine.

We have decided to try and prepare our own catfood by mixing 5-10 pounds of it at
a time and freezing it in one-serving amounts. Our only remaining question is:
just what ingredients should we include to give them every thing they need?
Obviously we will have to add at some amount of kidney pieces or the whole project
will never get off the ground. Are there any ingredients we should avoid? I was 
thinking along the lines of maybe a 1/2 cup of corn kernals per pound of food.
Another idea I had was to cook stock from beef marrow bones and the reducing to 
thicken it a bit, as a sort of sauce. This would be very high in gelatin and
purine. Any problems here? 

If anyone has any direct suggestions or can recommend a book on the subject, I 
would greatly appreciate any info I can get.

Regards,


Scott
  

If you want to make your cats' food I recommend Dr. Pitcairns
book, available at most health food stores. Title has something
to do with Guide to Natural Pet Care. I have been feeding
Bumble Bea from this book since she was a kitten. Her coat is
beautiful, no fleas, and her ears are always clean.

I have given this recipe in a previous reply, but my head is
clearer than is usual today (and I just made some this morning)
so here are more complete instructions.

Her favorite recipe is the liver menu. Here is what I use for
a three day supply of food:

        6 eggs
        1 C cooked brown rice (sometimes I use basmati)
      3-4 capsules cod liver oil
        3  100 unit capsules vitamin E
        3 t. dry supplement ( I make this up in a batch too. see below)
        3 good-sized garlic cloves
      3/4 C chicken liver 
      2-3 T. veggies (green pepper, carrot, and/or tomato)

       OPTIONAL: Vitamin C, powdered alfalfa

I put the first 6 ingredients in the blender and puree so she can't
pick out the rice. The I add the liver and veggies and blend 'til
they are just finely chopped. I heat 1-2 T. olive oil in a frying
pan and add what's in the blender. The book does not specify that
you cook it this way, but in order to keep Bumble Bea from just sucking
out the liver, I need to make it a fairly homogeneous mixture.

   Dry Supplement

    1/2 C brewer's yeast
    1/4 C Bone Meal
    1/4 C kelp powder


From time to time I include bits of raw liver with her meal. A local
homeopathic vet says that raw organ meat contains important enzymes
they don't get anywhere else.

If you don't normally eat brown rice you can make this up ahead of
time, also, and freeze in portions. In his book, Pitcairn lists other
cooked grains you can use, like oatmeal.

The book also includes menus for unweaned kittens and older animals.


                                    Susan

    Anitra Fraser's book, _The New Natural Cat_, also has recipes for
    making your own cat food.  Sorry, I don't have any details, and the
    book is at home.
    
    Michelle

Thanks for your help. Could you give me the ISBN for Dr. Pitcairn's book?
I live in Germany and will have to order it from a local bookstore.

Scott

Sure. I'll make a note of it this weekend. I have a few other
books on natural/homeopathic pet care, but I got this one first
and Bumble Bea likes this recipe. As Feliner's know, when you
find something they'll eat, it doesn't pay to mess with the status
quo.


                                      Susan

    Ok! I give up! I'm going to show my ignorance here! (What else is new
    right?) What the heck id the ISBN number on a book? What does it
    signify, and where does one find it? Enquiring minds NEED to know!
    
    Thanks,
    
    Yonee

    Yonee,
    
    The ISBN is an international ordering number (not sure exactly what the
    letters stand for), and it can usually be found on the back of the book
    in the bar code square. For example, the ISBN for Dean Koontz's
    _Lightning_ is 0-425-11580-1.  I believe that bookstores use the number
    to order books that they might not normally have access to (like books
    published overseas).
    
    Helpfully,
    Michelle

    Michelle,
    
     THANKS! I figured it had something to do with that, but I had no idea
    where it was located, etc...
    
    More informed,
    
    Yonee

re .133

See note 458.1 for the book info.



                         seh

    Merlin, at age 18, needs food that's easy on his kidneys.  He'd rather
    starve than eat Hills KD, no matter how many tricks I use (warming it,
    adding chicken broth, etc.).  He *will* eat Whiskas Expert Senior and
    Expert Low Fat, both of which have a protein content the same as Hills
    KD, and which are chicken based, which provides "high quality" (i.e.,
    easy on the kidneys) protein.  Even better, it was available at the
    nearby Super Stop and Shop.
    
    Unfortunately, they just stopped carrying it.
    
    Does anybody know of anyplace in the Worcester to Framingham area that
    carries these catfoods?  I'm willing to buy by the case.
    
    len.
    

    Anybody ever hear of a cat food brand called Diamond?
    
    Jo

    Len,
    
    	Is this Whiska's Expert Senior food wet or dry or both? I will
    certainly keep an eye out for it for Merlin! I hate when I get a brand
    of something that's great, and then it's gone! :-(
    
    Yonee

Hills has a "home-cooked-meal" info sheet that has about half a dozen recipes
that can be used to substitute for things like K/D and other prepared foods. You
should be able to get one from your vet. We have a cat on K/D who tried the home
cooked recipe for a while so I happen to remember the main ingredients. Our cat
spent much of his time vomiting the rice, and we eventually got him onto dry K/D.
Have you tried both dry and canned versions? Sometimes cats will refuse one but
eat the other.

						Trace

    If you can't find it locally, they carry it in Atlanta..it's what my
    cats like.  I could drop you some in the mail.  Let me know (dtn
    343-3538).
    
    

>    Does anybody know of anyplace in the Worcester to Framingham area that
>    carries these catfoods?  I'm willing to buy by the case.

len,

	The Stop & Shop at the intersection of Rt. 9 and Temple St (opposite 
Finally Michael's) carries Wiskas Expert dry foods, I'm not sure about wet.
I don't give mine canned food very often because they tend to play with it
rather than eat it.

	Pet World on Rt. 9 just before Speen St. (opposite Sear's) carries a
wide variety of canned and dry cat foods.  Plus they have shelter kitties for
adoption and they're nice people.  I buy Nutro Max Cat there and would 
recommend it.  It's chicken and lamb-based and I'd bet Merlin would eat it.


Pilar.

    re Whiskas Expert Senior Diet - I have a call into the local
    distributor (whom I found via the Whiskas 800 customer service number)
    about local availability.
    
    The Expert Senior I'm looking for is "wet" (canned).  Merlin will not
    eat dry food of any kind, which is unfortunate, as the supermarket
    still carries the dry variant.  I've tried tricking him into eating the
    dry stuff by mixing chicken in with it, but he tries to pick out just
    the chicken and makes a mess.  Maybe if I mix in some chicken broth
    so it gets soggy he'll think its the same stuff...  It's a good thing
    his teeth are still in great shape.. I hope I'm as healthy as he is
    when I'm his (equivalent) age.  
    
    Life with Merlin is about to get a lot more interesting, as later this
    afternoon I'm picking up (at least) two beautiful little kittens from the
    Pat Brody shelter who we saw at last weekend's show in Boxborough.
    Stay tuned for progress reports, probably in the "Old Codger" note I
    posted back when I started seriously considering some "same-species"
    companionship for my old (cat)man.
    
    len.
    

    
    Whiskas Expert Senior and Whiskas Expert Low Fat have been renamed, or
    combined, or something.  There's supposedly now a Whiskas Lite, which
    is supposedly stocked by Shaw's and Stop and Shop in the Greater Maynard
    Area.  I haven't found it at either yet.  All the other "Senior" cat foods
    I've examined have protein levels at around 9%, which is better than
    regular cat food but not as good as Whiskas Expert was at 8%, the same
    as Hills KD which Merlin would rather starve than eat, no matter what I
    do to it.  Worse, none of it is all chicken - it's usually got some
    fish mixed in, which as I understand it is not good for the kidneys.
    
    Why can't vendors just leave well enough alone?  Probably time to write
    a letter to Whiskas.
    
    len.
    
    
     

    Len, 
    
     We have a couple of different markets in the Hudson area. I'll check
    them out for you and see what I can find. I agree that they should just
    leave well enough alone. This always happens to me. I find a product I
    really like, and they either change it for the worse, or stop making it
    all together! ARGH!!!!!
    
    Yonee

In a reply to my note looking for a cat dish, someone mentioned that cold cat
food may not be good for our cats. Since I keep 1/2 a can of food in the
refrigerator, could this cause any intestional problems? Even though Tigger
is hungry at meal time, I *have* noticed that she will wait about an hour to
eat after I have put her food in her dish. If it is bad for them, would leaving
a 1/2 can of food at room temperature be any better or worse?

Thanks,
Laura

    I sometimes get the larger cans when they are on sale, and have to put
    part of the can in the refrigerator till the next meal. What I do,
    first of all, because they won't eat it cold, and I want to make sure
    my littlest one eats, and second, because I don't blame them for not
    wanting cold food and it might noit be good for them, is I nuke it for
    a few seconds to take the chill off, and they gobble it up. Even
    leftovers! ;-)
    
    Yonee

    
    Another suggestion:  Just get another cat so you never have leftover
    food that has to be put in the Frig!!!  This is one kitty problem
    I NEVER have!
    
    Sandy

    Sandy,
    
     For sure you never have that problem! Whatever MIGHT be left in a can,
    goes right outside for your strays! A large can lasts me two meals,
    cause I only have three, but Finnigan would be happy to eat the whole
    thing if I let him! 8-) Of course it has to be room temperature first
    though!
    
    Yonee

I would **love** to get another kitty, but in order to keep marital harmony
I must settle with just one - for now.  ;)  I will try the microwave
suggestion.

Thanks!
Laura

and while I'm on a role............

  is there any "rule of thumb" about how much kittens/cats should be getting 
  to eat ?

Debbi J
  

    I give my kittens as much as they will eat.  I also feed them only
    foods that are designed for growth, like Feline Growth canned food, and
    Max Kitten dry food.
    
    On adults, you really have to take it on an individual basis.  Depends
    on their activity level.
    
    Jo

    Hi All,
    
     I have a question, which I'm sure someone in this file knows the
    answer to. (did I just dangle a participle?)
    
     At the shelter where I volunteer, we have some cats that have special
    diets. We feed C/D, R/D K/D. I think I know what these three are for as
    far as special diets are concerned, but has anyone heard of W/D? It
    doesn't say on the can what makes it special, but we have a cage with
    four semi-feral kittens in it, and I have to feed them a mixture of 1/2
    bland wet food (usually turkey) and 1/2 W/D. 
    
     I'm just curious as to what dietary need is fulfilled by feeding this
    type of food. Can anyone help me with this? I've been feeding it for
    weeks, and it's driving me crazy! Enquiring minds want to know! ;-)
    
     Thanks in advance!
    
    Yonee

Our Sammy has been on Hill's WD for a year or so now.  He's 12 yrs old
and had an attack of colitis that left his system quite sensitive.

Basically, our vet said to keep him on a "low fat" high fiber diet...
hence WD.  We have him on both the wet and dry.  I've compared the contents 
of 9-Lives "Senior" and it's also low fat.

Lately his appetite has been off...we've always mixed baby lamb with
the WD but even that doesn't entice him.  Last wknd the vet suggested
Science Diet "low fat".  We bought some wet & dry from Agway and he
loves it!  Haven't seen any change in stools to suggest that his system
may not be tolerating it well.  It's only slightly cheaper than Hill's.
But...at least it's more convenient to buy at the feed store.

I've been tempted to start a database on all the 'special' foods.  Been
comparing the ingredients on all the labels.  It's been interesting to
see how a "low fat" food says "min fat 10%"...I would've thought it
would be "max" instead!!

PS...If folks want to check their labels and email the info to me, I'd
be happy to compile the info and pull it back into the notesfile.
Email to EDSGRP::UGRINOW

--Nick

    Hi Yonee,
    
         My kids are on W/D; it's a maintenance diet (vs. R/D which is a
    reducing diet) with a good amount of fiber and, apparently, not too
    much sugar (since Loki is diabetic).
    
    					- Andrea

    Thanks for the info! I couldn't for the life of me figure out what was
    special about this type of food! I admit I was a bit frustrated yet
    again as I mixed up those four little meals again last night! ;-) 
    
    But! Now I have the information, and now I also know why that
    particular box is always FULL when I get there on Thursday! 8-} All
    that fiber is certainly doing it's job with them! 
    
    I also remember that these guys were having a bit of trouble with their
    poops too, so that must be the reason they have it every day. They
    gobble it down, but of course I mix it with Friskies turkey and
    giblets, and a teeny bit of beef gravy for flavor! ;-) They love it,
    and it doesn't cause problems for them. 
    
    Thanks again! Now I can explain it to the other volunteers! I knew this
    file would come through for me yet again!
    
    Love,
    
    Yonee

    Nick...I'm another label reader lately because I have to look
    for low protein for one cat..and low Ash/Magnesium for another.
    By reading labels...instead of using KD..I've been able to
    put Mr. Meow on Whiskas Optimum because there is only a .5%
    difference in the protien.  Meow is much happier on the Optimum!
    
    I'd love to have compiled data on all the different type of cat
    foods...and that was mighty kind of you to offer to do this.  Since
    all the different "flavors" have different contents...are you going
    to do this by 9-lives Tuna and Egg, 9-lives turkey giblet etc..
    Friskies Beef/liver, Friskies sliced beef...etc.   That's going to
    take an awful lot of work on your part!!!! Because I have zillions
    of cats...I probably can provide labels on 30 different varieties!!!
    
    Sandy
    

    
    BTW, I mentioned that Merlin was eating KalKan Optimum (because he'd
    rather starve than eat KD) to my vet and she got very huffy about how you
    couldn't rely on the analysis on the label.  FWIW, KalKan Optimum *is*
    quite a bit wetter (juicier) than many other canned foods, which will
    make the protein content appear lower relative to other drier foods.
    
    Also, I still haven't been able to find the replacement for Whiskas
    Expert Senior, anywhere.  I think it was supposed to be called Whiskas
    Lite.
    
    len.
     

    FWIW, the way I look at what one is feeding their pet is this:
    
    If they will eat it, and it isn't causing any problems, then that's
    what they should have! If it started causing Merlin problems, THEN I'd
    worry about it. It does no good to feed something the vet likes, if the
    cat hates it and won't eat at all!
    
    My two cents....
    
    Yonee

    Can anyone recommand a low sodium cat food other than HIlls HD? Harley 
    needs a low sodium diet. I am sure my other 3 cats are going to hate 
    this, but it is too difficult to feed them seperately. The sodium
    content should be less than .07%.
                                            Alice and Harley

    Alice,  I do have a home-made low sodium diet which was published
    by Hills.   It is really a Feline Restricted Mineral and Sodium
    diet which they state is similar to HD.   It has ground beef,
    liver, white rice (no salt), vegtable oil and then you have to
    add the normal minerals and vitamins.
    
    If you want a copy...just let me know.
    
    Sandy

    Hi,
    
    	This morning I noticed that Navajo found a clove of Garlic that
    I always leave on the kitchen counter....he took it a part and it
    looked like he spread the pices all over the kitchen floor. either he
    is hoping to keep evil spirits away or he just found a new toy to play
    with. My question is, will it hurt him if he eats it ? from what I can
    tell he has not eaten any.....
    
    thanks
    Chris

    Except for a case of bad breath, it shouldn't hurt him at all. (My cats
    *love* food loaded with garlic).
    
    Deb

    Thanks Deb, I kinda felt it wouldn't be bad (except the breath !) 

    Also, I've heard that feeding your cat garlic powder is a natural flea
    repellent. 
    
    Deb

    Having a cat who is allergic to flea bites, I've found that giving
    her garlic pills daily during the flea-season helps reduce the
    likely hood of her accidently attracting any 'beasties' on her 
    daily jaunts down the woods.
    
    The pills reduce the likelyhood of any bad breath, when she snuggles 
    up for her nightly cuddle.
    
    Slippers has odd tastes - they include cheese, fruit cake, curries,
    icecream and Marmite (a yeast extract spread - popular here in the UK).
    
    She is a stocky meduim sized puss, who will try to walk down my
    husbands arm to reach his spoon if he dares to eat icecream in her 
    presence.  That is a sight to be seen - more so in the days before
    Rich perfected the technique of holding his arm up until the dish and
    spoon were moved a safe distance away.
    Black pussy cat hairs aren't the most appetizing garnish for a dessert.
    
    I just wish I had a way with word suitable to describe the picture
    we see whenever the icecream is chocolate.  Slippers hates chocolate
    but loves icecream.  Attraction to icecream, out-weighs the hatred 
    of chocolate.
    Her little eyes close themselves up tight , the whiskers fold flat 
    against her face and she laps the bowl using the smallest portion of 
    her tongue she can manage.  It's the only time she doesn't try to
    remove the pattern from the bowl - if you folks know what I mean.
    
    Sorry to have gone wittering on - much of this probably isn't new
    to you readers, so I hope you're not bored.
    
    Judy

    -.1> I just wish I had a way with word suitable to describe the picture
       > we see whenever the icecream is chocolate.
    
    You do!  That was wonderful!  A co-worker walked by while I was
    snickering at my screen and she said, "Reading the comics?!"  Yes,
    comic ice-cream-aholic kitty!
    
    > Sorry to have gone wittering on - much of this probably isn't new
    > to you readers, so I hope you're not bored.
    
    *More* wittering, please!
    
    Leslie
    

    I went out to Pet Supply Depot at lunch-time and bought a bag
    of Science Diet Lite Maintainence, and 3 cans of wet food -
    all seafood/fish flavors - 2 different flavors of IAMS, and
    a Science Diet. 
    
    So, we'll see how they like them and if we can work the decent
    food into the diet.  
    
    There didn't seem to be any "healthy" treats for them, though.
    Do they make any?
    
    Sue
       

    Re: healthy treats
    
    About once a week I divide a small can of Swanson chicken in
    water among my three cats.
    

    
    Like Karen's, my kids get a chicken treat once a week.  They've also
    decided they like 1% Lactaid, and I can drink it too.
    
    If it's a very special occasion, they get some finely chopped deli
    turkey.
    
    len.
     

    I believe that Science Diet has some up with some treats for both
    cats and dogs (saw the dog treats at Jo's house).  I haven't seen
    them at the pet supply places yet.  Am keeping my eye out for them.
    Jo ordered hers through the vet supplier.
    
    Jan

I imagine you can pick them up through most any vet if they're feeling
cooperative.

						Trace

    
    Does anyone know anything about PAWS canned cat food? They are made 
    in Canada, labeled as professional, cost considerably more and I 
    recently found them in Star Market. The food smells good, it looks
    high quality and my cats love it. The ingredient list looks great
    (first ingredient is not water!). I just want to make sure they
    are safe.
    
    I have a hard time finding PURINA canned food, which I think is
    great stuff. I tried Alpo recently and found a piece of peanut
    foam in one can. Needless to say, I don't buy it anyone. I am
    (and/or my cats are) not happy with the other brands, which I 
    have tried almost all, found in supermarket.
    
    
    Eva
     

    RE:  "(first ingredient is not water!).
    
    Don't know if you're aware, but ingredient listings on animal food
    products aren't required to be listed in the order of the max to min
    ingredients as human food labels are.  Also, the companies aren't under
    any legal obligation to actually get those labels 100% "accurate". 
    What it lists as the protein source one week may actually be what it
    lists & then other times it could be some other type of protein & they
    don't have to (and most don't) change the label.  That's why it's
    important to use a high quality food in animals that have problems
    toleratating even small changes in food types - the Hills & Iams
    type premium foods are known to stick to a very constant/very definite
    ingredient list, whereas most products you buy in a supermarket will
    use whatever's cheapest for the different protein, energy, fat sources,
    etc.  It doesn't necessarily mean the food isn't healthy, it's just
    that things aren't regulated, so the labels aren't really accurate so
    you won't really know exactly what your animal is eating.

    
    Thanks for the info - no, I wasn't aware of the lack of labeling
    regulations ;-(. 
    
    My cats tried Science Diet and they didn't like it at all.
    They like Iams, but the local vet does not carry canned foods.
    They alternate between Iams and Purina for dry food. My next 
    step is to go to a pet shop and buy a case of Iams. 
    
    The PAWS in question is supposed to be "Professional", they
    cost 45 cents a can, which 2x as much as other supermarket stuff.
    But then I know I can't judge by the price. 
    
    
    Eva
    
    

	My cat suddenly turned up her nose at Max Cat Lite which she's been 
	eating for many months now.  She is otherwise healthy and hungry
	and is eating other foods ok.

	I had recently opened up a new bag, so I called Max Cat Consumer 
	number to see if they changed their formula or had a bad batch
	or something.  I had jotted down what I thought was a "lot number"
	but it turned out to be a date.  0507942 means manufactured on
	May 7, 1994.  Dry food expires 1 year later!

	Now I know why some of the stores tape shut the top of the
	bag.  That's where the expired date is!  The Max consumer
	people say that they don't tape shut the top.
	
	Caveat emptor!