Conference misery::feline

    I'm wondering about do-it-yourself things, like adding rice (which I
    assume is low in protein?) to their food, after having checked with the
    vet about it, of course.  One thing I've noticed as a vegetarian, and
    consequently someone whose protein intake is lower than usual, is that
    your tastes change over time as a function of what you're used to, so
    that you may find that Pip will later like foods that she doesn't
    initially like.  I now like rice, and a sugar donut or egg salad looks
    pretty revolting.
    
    (As a side note, most humans eat too much protein, and getting used to
    liking lower protein items is generally all to the good.)
      
           

    Rice is a great filler and mixed in with some butter is beneficial as
    well as the butter increases the percentage of fat which is needed in a
    low protein diet.

    I was doing some serious label checking last night and came up with
    about 12 flavors in Wiskas that are at 8% protein.  Some others are at
    10 and 11%.  My husband is calling CalKan (who makes Wiskas) today and
    asking them to send us a Protein analysis sheet on each one of their
    flavors.  I also asked him to ask for a Magnesium analysis sheet.  Pet
    food companies will send this information out to you upon request.
    
    Oh - most dry food (IAMS, Hills, etc,) is between 31 and 33% Protein. 
    Wiskas Expert Senior is 25% and the Low Cal is 27%.  Pippin eats very
    little dry so at least I can offer her 4-5 crunchies every other day of
    these foods.
    
    When I get the analysis sheet from Wiskas I'll enter the information.
    
    Giudi

    i know there's some rice-and-something cat food carried in the local
    Whole Foods store;  I didn't get a chance to go in and check the label
    to see if it would be suitable.  I think I've seem the same brand,
    whose name I forget, in local health food stores.
    

    You are probably thinking of Lick Your Chops lamb and rice cat food.  I
    used to buy it for Joui through the health foods stores.
    
    Jo

    I have a list of all the protein and magnesium info at home but I do
    remember that Lick Your Chops was either 10 or 11% and of course low in
    magnesium.  Triumph, OMH, Iams and Natures Recipe are all at the same
    level.  Excellent foods but still not low enough in protein straight
    but they can be mixed with a filler.
    
    Giudi

    Since Munchkin suffers from full-blown kidney disease (which has been
    stable for over a year), caused by his age and his diabetes, diet doesn't 
    seem to matter.  Don't forget, that his food intake is controlled because 
    of his diabetes.  In cases like Munch, where the BUN and creatinine, which 
    are the two major levels they check with a kidney (blood) titer test, are 
    elevated, it's imperative that we keep his kidneys working - literally by 
    flooding him with fluids.  Fortunately, my husband is in healthcare (at 
    U. Mass. Medical Center), plus Munch allows us to do anything to him - 
    what a wonderful cat!  We have an IV set-up at home, and give Munch 100 cc.
    of fluid under the skin twice a week.  This also has to be done on a
    tightly-controlled schedule, just like his twice-daily insulin shots.
    Since he's getting so much extra fluid, he pees like crazy, which keeps
    his kidney flushed. 
    
    This extra care does change how we operate.  For instance, if we know
    we will be late at night, my neighbor comes in and "shoots the cat",
    feeds them and fills up their water glasses.  She really was a little
    squeamish about giving Munch a shot, but he's so wonderful (he purrs),
    and he loves her a lot too, that she doesn't mind.  We can't leave
    Munch, even with my in-laws, because he acts differently when we're not
    around, will give himself an insulin reaction (from stress), and in the
    past, has wound up in the animal hospital.  Over Christmas, we will
    bring his IV set-up, and I will visit our friends in Philadelphia for
    a few days.  Peter will stay with his folks and Munch.  We won't go on
    a real vacation until both Munch and Mutu are gone.  (Some people think
    we're nuts, but I know all of you understand!)
    
    I would suggest talking with the vet to be sure you know what to look
    for, what to expect, what can happen, what kind of treatment the cat
    might need, etc.  This will help you determine what you feel you can do
    for your cat at home.  If the cat requires constant treatment, like
    Munch, and you are unable/unwilling to do this at home, then the extra
    stress bringing him/her back and forth to the vet x times a week, plus
    other concerns, may push you to make a decision. Since cats don't always
    show that they're ill, sometimes their illness is far advanced when we
    notice it.  That happened with one of my mother-in-law's cats (one of
    Munch and Mutu's daughters).  Shadow was in full-blown kidney failure. 
    The major symptom was that she stopped drinking, urinating, and moving. 
    Until three mornings before she was euthanized, she was fine.
    
    If you want to talk on the phone about this, please feel free to call.
    
    

    Pippin's BUN was within normal limits.  The creatinine was slightly
    elevated and the vets seemed to think this was due partly to the
    infection and that she had been under anesthesia during the double
    study.  She's having another BUN in March.  Now the radiologist
    determined that her kidneys were "smaller" than normal.  The questions
    we are asking are along the line of "could they have been this way from
    birth?", just being born with smaller kidneys or how long have they
    been getting smaller.  We have nothing to compare to at this point and
    won't until the next ultrasound.
    
    I lost my first cat to kidney disease and it did hit us out of the
    blue.  One day he was fine, the next day he went into failure.  The
    last bout did him in badly and we decided to put him down.  We didn't
    have a chance with Ting to modify diet or get him on medication
    therapy.  Pippin is being given a fighting chance and I'm going to be
    optimistic about it.  The radiologist gave her 2 to 3 more good years,
    my vet gave her 5 or more.  My husband and I have discussed this in
    depth over the last week and we will do all we can to keep her healthy
    and maintain the quality and quantity of her life.  My goal at this
    point is to get through one year without any infection and get good
    readings on the next BUN.  We've discussed Pippin's present treatment
    with our vet and will go on from there.  I'm lucky in that's she's an
    easy cat to medicate, will drink water when I put the dish under her
    nose and isn't terribly finicky about food (it's the other two).
    
    I really admire all your are doing for Munch, he sounds like a
    wonderful cat who has a couple of very special humans.  By the way, how
    old is he and how long ago was he diagnosed with kidney disease?
    
    Giudi  

    Giudi - for Pippin's sake I hope that the Wiskas you get in the US is 
    different from the Wiskas sold here in the UK!

    My cat Sam has kidney trouble (he's 14 years old) and my vet told me to 
    stop giving him Wiskas because it contains so much red meat and also 
    artificial colourings. On his advice I also stopped giving Sam dry foods
    (Go-Cat and Miaow Mix) because of the artificial colourings and 
    preservatives they contain.

    I now feed both cats a tinned food called Nature Cat, which does not 
    contain such nasties. According to the blurb on the tin this provides 
    `a diet based on natural ingredients that a cat would seek out for itself 
    in the wild'. As well as meat, it contains wheat, seaweed and a 
    herbal/vegetable/vitamin mix. It's 7.5% protein.

    Although it seems expensive (around 35p for a small tin), it isn't really
    because they don't need so much of it. Lucky gets 1 small tin per day 
    which is supposed to be enough for an `average cat' (whatever that is!) 
    Sam being a somewhat larger than average cat ;-) and having kidney 
    trouble, has the same amount with about 3 ounces of cooked brown rice/
    mashed potato/bulgar mixed into it each day. Both cats also have a few 
    finely chopped (cooked) fresh vegetables added occasionally - carrots, 
    green beans and peas all seem to go down well. Maybe I should mention 
    here that I never use salt when cooking food for the cats.

    Speaking of what goes down well, I'm happy to say that this food stays 
    down well! (anyone who has ever had to scrape semi-digested Wiskas off 
    their carpet will understand)

    Oh, and best of all is...they love the stuff! 

    June

    P.S. I must say a big THANK YOU to the knowledgeable noters in here. If 
    it wasn't for you, I would not have taken Sam to the vet in the first
    place because I wouldn't have known the significance of the warning 
    signs. You may have helped to prolong my furry friend's life - thank you
    from the bottom of my heart.

    June:
    
    The people from CalCan who make Wiskas (here in California) called us
    twice, once last night and once this morning.  They are sending us a
    complete analysis breakdown of the food in the mail.  They were very
    helpful and actually had a meeting based on a discrepency my husband
    noticed on the new Sheba Labels (we've been reading every label in
    sight).  Wiskas Expert is a very good food and consists of Chicken and
    Rice and holds at 9% protein, Expert Senior and Low Cal are at 8%.  All
    the other Wiskas are at 8% except for those that are fish or have fish
    in them.   Our Vet went over the label with us and said it was good
    middle of the road food because my three will Not Eat Hill K/D.(7.5)
    
    I've never heard of Nature Cat, is it a UK only Food?  Do you purchase
    it from the Vet or is it commercial?  Thanks so much for the recipe you
    included.  I have been using rice as a filler but will now try the
    brown rice and mash potato/bulgar mix.  I was going to try my hand at
    the vegies this weekend.  I've only been at this food business for
    about a week and I've been having dreams about cat food as a result.
    
    Oh June, do you cook the rice mixture ahead of time and keep it in the
    cooler or do you dook it fresh up every day? Now I was told to add very
    very little salt which would encourage the cat to drink more water. 
    I'm also going to work on a gravey type liquid to add to food for
    flavoring.
    
    Thanks so much
    
    Giudi
              

    I cook up my own rice a bunch at a time and keep it in the frig, as a 
    convenience measure, without noticing any problem.  Maybe a cat would
    be too refined for this, however :-)
    

    Giudi,

    From what you've said I think that Wiskas in the US must be different 
    from here (I think it might be spelt differently, of course this only 
    occurred to me after I entered my note!). 

    I think Nature Cat probably is only available in the UK, as it's made 
    by a fairly small company. I get it from a local supermarket. I did ask 
    my vet about special `kidney diet' canned food, but he doesn't sell it 
    any more because so many people said they just could not get their cats 
    to eat it.

    .10 > I've only been at this food business for about a week and I've 
    .10 > been having dreams about cat food as a result.

    This made me laugh - I know just how you feel! For the first few weeks, 
    when I was gradually modifying their diet, I thought of little else.
    
    At first, it seemed so unlikely that Sam, who used to adore his crunchy 
    biscuits, would be happily munching on brown rice and vegetables, but 
    luckily his condition was not acute and I was able to gradually introduce 
    these things into his diet. Now he scoffs the lot, as long as the basic 
    ingredient is tasty and it's all well mixed together.

    I normally cook the rice or whatever in batches. I do enough for about 
    3 days at a time, it will keep perfectly well in the fridge for a few 
    days. My vet said you can use any starchy food that you can persuade 
    the cat to eat. The 4 points he made to me were:

    1) reduce the protein level 
    2) cut out red meat
    3) cut out artificial colourings/flavourings/preservatives
    4) starchy foods are good - they fill the cat up and help keep the 
       weight on

    Regarding salt, my vet did not make any mention of it. I don't use any 
    because one of the books I looked at said that failing kidneys have 
    trouble coping with sodium. However, Sam is an old cat, and his medical 
    condition is probably not quite the same as Pippin's. I'm sure your
    vet knows what's best in your particular situation.

    Good luck!

    June 

    Thanks June,
    
    The Whiskas in the US I believe is different from the UK.  It's true
    about this food business, I go to bed at night thinking about it and
    woke up the other morning mumbling something about going to a certain
    health food store to look for cat food.  My husband looked and me like
    had gone round the bend.
    
    She's beginning to accept the rice - I'm giving it to her every other
    day now and I mix a little chicken broth with it in the food, heat it
    and she's going for it.  The others seem to like it as well.  I was
    told to make my own chicken stock and to save the fat that rises to the
    top (the stuff you skimm off) and add that to the food.  I will it this
    week end - I'm going to add some carrots and peas and green beans in
    the pot as well and mince them up as you said.  
    
    It's a gradual process and she nedds to be coaxed.  Now she wants to be
    at first fed some food off a spoon and then she'll put her head in the
    dish.  Oh well, what ever it takes is ok with me.
    
    Salt shouldn't be added to cat food but a small amount can be added to
    home cooked food.  The canned chicken broth is salty enough to
    encourage her to drink a bit more.  Anyway, so far so good.
    
    Thanks again,
    
    Giudi

    Now that a good part of these cats' diets are comprised of home cooked
    meals, are the getting the proper amount of Taurine (sp?)? My cats
    don't have any health peoblems (Knock wood) but the do enjoy a lot of
    the food I cook for myself. I let them have a nibble here & there, but
    I always make sure they get their cat food in its full amount, because
    I'm afraid if I don't, that their meal could be deficient.
    
    Are you adding taurine to their home cooked meals, or is the taurine
    they're getting from the canned food enough?
    
    Bonnie
    
     

    Bonnie:
    
    What I was told to do is to add rice, potatoes, chicken fat, etc. to
    the cat food as a filler.  Being the protein level is being lowered
    they need more fat and carbohydrates.  This week end I made up a big
    pot of chicken soup and skimmed the fat from the top and added it to
    her dish - she loved it.  I minced up the celery and carrots that were
    in the soup and added a little of that.  It's taking some time but
    we're getting there.
    
    BTW I asked my vet about a vitamin supplement and he said that she
    wouldn't need one because the food contains plenty.  What's hard is the
    crunchies, my other two get either Hills or Iams and she's got to have
    K/D dry (and not too many).  They were used to free feeding so now it's
    supervised morning and night - they each get their own bowl so I've got
    to keep an eye on her.  When breakfast/dinner is over the bowls come
    up.  Then I put them out for a little bit before I go to bed.  
    
    We're getting used to it.
    
    Giudi

    I couldn't find a note on this, so I decided to start a new one. 
    Moderators, if need be, feel free to move this to the appropriate note.
    
    Honey, my 16 year old cat, has been diagnosed with Kidney disease. 
    She had not been eating for a few days and was just laying around the
    house.  Now granted, she's old, but this was not like her at all.  She
    wasn't even grooming herself.
    
    I brought her to the vets last thursday night.  They did some bloodwork
    on her and found that she had kidney disease.  I'm not sure what the
    name of the two counts were that she gave me, but one was over 80 (was
    supposed to be in the 20's?) and the other was over 11 (was supposed to
    be somewhere around 3.0??).
    
    Anyway, if this makes any sense to you, you're doing a lot better than
    me. (-:  They gave her treatments twice a day over the weekend and took
    her blood again yesterday.  The counts were down considerably.  (23 and
    3.4).
    
    They've told me that I'll have to give her fluids twice a week for a
    while and then once a week.  Does anyone know what this entails??  I'm
    pretty sure that it's giving her a shot twice a week, but not positive.
    
    Anybody have any advice as to what I should feed her now or anything??
    
    thanks.
    
    Holly

    Holly, is Honey still in at the vet's?  I assume so, since diet is very
    important in treating kidney disease, so they will doubtless send her
    home with detailed instructions about it.  All that I remember is
    that (hazily.....) it's important to keep protein low so the kidneys
    don't overwork, and to have water always available.
    
    I'm sorry I don't know what the numbers mean, so I can't guess at how
    far the disease has progressed.  I know I freaked out when Sweetie was
    diagnosed with lung disease months ago, but he is doing well, so hang
    in there, we all have our fingers and paws crossed for you and Honey.
    
    Karen
    

Re: .16

>    They've told me that I'll have to give her fluids twice a week for a
>    while and then once a week.  Does anyone know what this entails??

    Our cat, Boofus (Her real name was Artemis), had chronic renal failure
    (kidney failure).  We had to give her fluids daily.  This involved a
    subcutaneous (beneath the skin) injection of saline solution.  The vets
    gave (sold) us a plastic bag containing a liter of saline solution, to
    which we attatched a plastic tube, and a needle.  We just inserted the
    needle beneath Boofus' skin, on her back, and injected 300 to 400 ml of
    the fluid.  This gave her a year of life that she would not have
    otherwise had, an I felt that it was worth every second.

    Hope this helps,
    Paul

    My Siamese Misty, who will be 18 on July 4th, was diagnosed with kidney
    failure 1 1/2 years ago.  The vet told me to start feeding her Hills K/D, 
    which is a reduced protein food.

    Unfortunately, Misty does not like the canned K/D, and it's like trying
    to pull teeth to get her to eat just a small amount each day. She loves 
    the dry K/D, though. What I do is feed her about 1 oz. of canned K/D, 
    heated in the microwave with a couple of tablespoons of water mixed in. 
    Since she tends to drink the "juice" first, I keep adding water until 
    she's finished all the food. (Sometimes it takes an hour or more for 
    her to eat this.)  When she finishes her canned food, then I give her 
    her "dessert" -- a tablespoon of dry K/D.  She'll wolf that down in a 
    couple of minutes. She had lost weight when she first got sick from the
    kidney failure, but when I started her on the dry K/D her weight came
    back up.

    Occasionally, Misty has a spell where she eats little or stops eating, 
    so I bring her right in to the vet. She gets an antibiotic and fluids, 
    if she's dehydrated, and she recovers almost immediately.

    If you can get Honey to drink more water, maybe you won't need to give 
    her fluids under the skin. Your vet will probably tell you what to feed 
    her. If not, ask. 

    Good luck with Honey, and let us know how she's doing. 

    Linda

    HI everyone,
    
    Thanks for the input ... I knew I could count on you guys!!
    
    I brought Honey home yesterday.  Boy, was she happy to be home!  She
    went to find Marni (her 15 year old daughter) and just licked and
    licked and licked her!!  Marni did the same thing to her and they
    curled up together to go to sleep.
    
    I will have to give Honey the fluids under the skin like .18 said.  But
    it's only 100 ml twice a week for the first two weeks, and then once a
    week from then on.  
    
    She is also on Amoxie (an antibiotic) and some type of liquid vitamin.  
    
    As for what she should eat, they really didn't say.  They just said
    whatever she'll eat.  I guess because she's SUCH a picky eater.  She
    didn't like the hospital food at all.  She had to have her "show bound
    Total feline" food.
    
    but she's doing much better!  Thanks for all of your advice!
    
    Holly
    

    -1
    
    Be sure to keep extra bowls of water around to temp her to drink more.
    I added a water bowl in the living room and one up stairs on the roof.
    Supprisingly they're all drinking more out of the living room dish
    because they tend to spend more time in that room during the afternoon.
    
    Also keep the protein level as low as you can.  If she won't eak K/D -
    (mine won't either) try Wiskas EXPERT SENIOR diet.  It's only 8% which
    is only 1/2 % higher than K/D and they like it much better - the Senior
    Dry is also lower than the K/D dry.  BTW they have a low cal wich is
    only 8% protein as well.  Our vet said it was perfectly fine to give
    her this.  Our little girl is on Amoxi as well - it's going on 10
    months and not ONE relapse - she's gained weight (actually has a little
    tummy again) and is full of energy.
    
    Good luck and keep us posted.
    
    Giudi & Pippin -  Gino & Stitch

I second the extra water bowls.  All of mine prefer to drink out of bowls that
are no where near their food.  I've got one in the kitchen, one in the 
living room and one upstairs.  The one in the kitchen, by their food, is
used primarily by Beth to drown her toys....

Mary

    I third the extra water bowls! Mine refuse to drink out of the bowl
    near their food! I don't actually keep one there, but my mother-in-law
    insists that they need a vowl of water there, so she fills it. 
    
    They mostly drink out of a bowl I keep full next to the bathroon sink.
    They also drink out of the faucets in the bathrooom if I let them. They
    will try to find a puddle outside before they will drink the water near
    their food! In the summer I keep one on the porch and one in my room
    too for them.
    
    Y

    Mine tend to enjoy drinking out of the toilet and/or licking fresh
    water off the shower walls when we get out of the shower in the
    morning.
    Strange little babies!! 

    a small amount of canned chicken broth in the food - even the low salt
    - can increase thirst.
    
    Giudi

    Our 18_year_old (Tabatha) has recently been diagnosed with renal kidney
    failure.  The vet wants her in the next 3-days to flush her completely 
    and try to get her eating K/D.

    Questions:

    1) I understand that renal kidney failure is a disease which cannot be
    reversed.  Considering the documentation I received says the disease is
    first diagnosed after the kidney is (2/3 or 3/4) of the way gone, how
    much longer might we expect her to live?  

    2) Tabatha does not like the K/D.  Is the "Senior Wiskas" (is that what
    it was called) available over the counter or thru the vet?  I've never
    seen/heard of it?  If she eats it, all the better (as long as it's
    lower in protein).

    3) We've recently been taking Tabatha to the vet once a week to give
    her fluids (saline?).  Yesterday they said her readings (from a
    recent blood analysis, I think) were too high and requested we bring
    her in the next 3-days.  Is this something we might expect to do on a
    continual basis?  What can we expect in the future from this disease?

    I didn't get an opportunity to discuss much with the vet -- I was 
    picking her up in the evening (my wife didn't want her staying
    overnight) and I was admittedly in a bit of a hurry.  
    
    I do not relish the next few months with my wife at all.  She has had
    Tabatha since she (my wife) was 13-years-old and I expect she will be
    absolutely devastated(sp?) when the end finally comes (assuming it will
    be relatively soon).
    
    Thanx for any/all help anyone can provide.
    
    -Andy (who has not followed this conference too closely in the past)

    I don't have knowledge of Kidney Disease...but I just want to send
    warm well wishes to Tabatha.   
    
    Somewhere in this file or the old feline file I believe Guidi (who also
    had a kitty with kidney problems)  posted a list of cat food that was 
    very low in protien.  If I can find it...I'll point you to the note.
    
    Another thought would be that if Tabatha needs daily flushing you
    and your wife might want to consider learning how to do this at home.
    (of course your vet would have to agree)   This would be less stressful
    on all.    I have never had to learn how to do this...and I cringe
    at the thought...but I think if the time came and I needed to do it
    ...I probably would.
    
    Spoil your little girl rotten.....she's deserves the best!!
    Keep us posted....
    
    Sandy

    I am usually a READ only member in this conference.  However, I too
    have a cat that has been diagnosed with kidney problems.  After talking
    extensively with my Vet (Dr. Bishop - Animal Hospital of Nashua) this
    is what I've been told:
    
    -	The disease is not reversable and the kidney's will continue to
    	deteriorate.
    
    -	Protein level in the food must be kept at 8:00% or lower.  The
    	lower the protein the easier it is on the kidney's (though the
    	latest show it should be higher protein).  
    
    -	When the end is near you will know.  The cat will start to vomit,
    	usually followed or combined with diarhea combined also with high
    	fever.
    
    About food low in protein.  My cat Muffin is approximately 16 years
    old.  She refuses to eat K/D.  She'll starve herself first!  She will
    eat the Wiskas Senior Diet which has a protein level of 8%.  I buy is
    at Alexander's Shop'n Save.  Not sure where you are located.  Another
    thing you should do is monitor her weight and try to keep it at a
    steady level.  Gaining or losing weight stresses the kidneys.  Use
    every trick in the book to get your cat to drink LOTS of water.  The
    more water the better.  Keep an eye on the litter box too.  You will
    notice, due to the increased urination, you will probably need to
    change the litter more frequently.
    
    I know that I'm on borrowed time with Muffin.  She's a grand old lady
    and rules my house with an iron paw!  I keep her as comfortable as
    possible, monitor her diet and pray, that when her time comes, I'll
    find the courage to let her go with peace and dignity.
    
    If you need more information, please let me know and I'll try to help. 
    My best advice to you though, is make an appointment to see your Vet. 
    Not talk to him/her over the phone but an actual person to person
    conversation.  There is no need to bring in the cat but you need to get
    as much information as you can and sometimes talking over the phone
    doesn't cut it.
    
    Good luck.
    
     

    Like the other noters, I encourage you to make an appointment to
    discuss this at length with your vet, and you don't have to bring in
    Tabatha to do that.
    
    I think life expectancy is hard to predict; your vet might be able to
    estimate this, but I think assuming it is only a few months is not
    necessarily correct.  A friend of mine had a cat who lived comfortably
    for about a year, as I recall.  Some do better.
    
    The vet can give you a list of alternate foods, both commercial brands
    and ones that can be home-made.  You might also add some water to the
    food itself as another way to increase her water intake.
    
    I think the thing to keep in mind is to concentrate on loving Tabs
    while she is with you, and not letting a fear of the future take the
    present away from you.  I was extremely worried when my cat was
    diagnosed with a severe lung problem almost a year ago, but he is doing
    very well.
    
                           

    Well, it's been just a little over a year and the good news is that
    Pippin is doing fantastically well.  She had 2 blood tests this year
    and everything is back to normal.  We continue to keep her protein
    level down (even allow a couple of treats now and then) to 9% or below,
    provide water bowls in several spots in the house and she gets a small
    dose of amoxi every day.  Her weight it back up, her coat looks great
    and it's like she never got sick.
    
    Hey, you up there who watches out for kitties down here - Thanks from
    the bottom of our hearts
    
    Giudi - Pippin, Gino & StITcH

    Hi, Guidi.  A big hug to Pippin.
    

    Great news about Pippin....you must be beaming with joy!!  Here's to
    many many many more happy healthy years to the little girl!!
    
    Sandy

	Hooray for Pippin!  Purrs and headbutts from C.C., who's also
	had her moments with kidney problems, and is hanging in there,
	too :^}

	Sandy

    Great news about Pippin.  I hope her good health continues for many
    years.
    
    Steffi

    Wonderful news about Pippin!  It's so nice to hear about furbabies who
    beat the odds!
    
    Michelle

    
    Big hugs to Pip....
    
    

Hi all,

To revive an old note:

I've read through this note and notes 185 and 111 to educate myself about
kidney disease and diet.  At my cat's last vet visit (she's 12/13 years old
now) I told the the vet that she was drinking much more water than she used
to (and consequently peeing more).  The vet told me that this was a
possible symptom of kidney failure (or diabetes).  She told me to change
Mosa's diet to low protein and watch her for a couple of months to see if
her water consumption decreased.  Other than the increased water
consumption Mosa appears to be in very good health:  good appetite, good
skin, still very perky, etc.

After reading through all the replies in the above-mentioned notes, I've
decided to put Mosa on a diet of low protein food (around 8% protein).
Since she hates the K/D food that the vet gave us to try, I'll try the
senior Whiskas food.

My question is this:

1. About dry food: I bought IAMS' dry food, but noticed that the protein
   analysis says 28%. Isn't that way too high?  The pet store owner tried to
   explain that even though it said 28%, it wasn't really that high, since the
   dry food is concentrated and that as soon as the dry food got hydrated in
   Mosa's stomach, the protein content became much lower.  Is this correct
   info? Mosa loves dry food, but I don't want to be giving her a high-protein
   dry food right now.

2. Does the plan of feeding her a low protein diet and watching her water
   consumption for a few months sound okay?  If her water consumption is
   still up, I'd take her in for the appropropriate tests, etc.

Thanks a lot!

Diana

Seems better to run a couple of tests now than duke it out with, say, insulin
shock later.

					Trace

    Since I too have a cat (16 years old) who has degenerative kidney
    problems I'm getting to be somewhat of an expert on low protien cat
    food.  My vet (Dr. Bishop, Animal Hospital of Nashua) said that Muffin
    should not get any dry food since most of it is too high in protein.  I
    have to keep her on a low protien (8%) food.  Any of the quality dry
    food such as IAMS, Science Diet and the lite foods are too high in
    protein and should be avoided.  Muffin will not KD either so I've been
    feeding her KAL KAN Optima.  You vet is your best person to talk to
    about her diet.
    

    Iams, Science Diet, Max, etc. are almost all similar in their protein
    percentages for their regular foods.  This is because 28% is not too
    high for a cat that has no problem with kidney failure or diabetes. 
    Cats that have those problems need to be on special foods that meet
    their special dietary needs.  The best person to ask for help on
    finding the right food for a cat with kidney problems or diabetes would
    be the vet.
    
    If there is a concern that a cat is urinating more than normal, and may
    have either kidney trouble or diabetes, a general health profile (blood
    test) wouldn't be a bad idea.  It is better to catch these things
    early before they are too advanced.
    
    Jo

    In my search for a new food which is low in protein for Mr. Meow
    who is 17 and was diagnosed with Kidney Disease....I found a
    new brand.  Has anyone heard of Kal-Kan Optimum?  (I think that
    is what it is called)  This brand comes in multiple choies such
    as chicken/rice, liver, beef, turnky and different fish brands.
    
    I have compared the labels with KD...and found that the only
    difference is KD has 7.5 protein, Kal-Kan has 8.0 protein.
    KD has 10.0 crude fat...and Kal-Kan has only 5.0 crude fat.  My 
    vet had not heard of this brand of food...so I'm dropping of
    a label so he can compare it himself...and I'll let you
    know what he says!
    
    By using this food...Mr. Meow went to just lapping the KD
    to eating 4 ozs of the Kal-Kan last night.  I sure hope
    this brand is okay for him because the poor guy is down
    from 12 pounds to about 5 pounds.
    
    I'll keep you posted...
    
    Sandy
    

    The following is a home-made low protein diet that has been
    published by Hills Pet Products and my vet gave it to me for
    one of my cats that have Kidney Disease and refuses to eat
    KD.  
    
    FELINE RESTRICTED PROTEIN DIET  (similar to KD)
    ------------------------------------------------

	1/4 lb liver (Beef, chicken or pork only)
	2 large hard-cooked eggs
	2 cups cooked white rice without salt
	1 Tablespoon vegetable oil
	1 Teaspoon (5 grams) calcium carbonate
	1/8 Teaspoon KCI (salt substitute)

	Also add a balance supplement which fulfills the
	feline MDR for all vitamins and trace minerals and 
	250 MG taurine/day.

	Dice and braise the meat, retain fat.
	Combine all ingredients and mix well.
	This mixture is somewhat dry and the 
	palatability may be improved by adding
	some water. 


    ANALYSIS
    ---------
	Protein                =  7.3%
	Fat                    =  5.3%
	Carbohydrate           = 15.8%
	Moisture               = 70.0%
	*Metabolizabel energy  = 635kcal/lb

	* This diet supplies 21% protein calories
	35% fat calories and 44% carbohydrate calories.

   FEEDING GUIDE
   -------------
	Body weight         Daily Feeding
            5 lb               1/4 lb
          7-8 lb               1/3 lb
           10 lb               2/5 lb



    

Well, we thought we got off easy with the heartworm scare (note 178) a few 
months ago. Unfortunately, I have to move to the kidney disease note.

Over the last month, I noticed Wizard was losing weight. He was eating, 
playing, and grooming as usual, but he was getting thin. Last weekend, we went 
to the vet. Wizard weighed 9.5 pounds, down from his usual 14. (He's a big, 
furry cat that doesn't like to be held. I insisted on picking him up and almost 
threw him across the room since he was so light.)

After drawing blood for tests and hearing a lot of "it could be's" from the 
vet, (and crying the whole way home), we had to wait for the results of the 
tests. It came back as kidney failure, which I guess is better than the 
leukemia that was also suspected. Wizard is on day 2 of four days at the 
vet where they are flushing his system with fluids. They are also doing a urine 
culture to see if there are any infections involved - the vet said doubtful, 
but they want to be sure. I'm supposed to call this afternoon to hear the 
results.

This is my sweet, little Momma's boy. Wizard and his sister have been with me 
for over 12 years.  His sister, Miss Marple, is very lonely at home without 
him. So, am I. The hard part was trying to get to sleep last night without 
him snuggled up beside me.

There's not a lot to do but wait. I hope to be able to bring him home Friday. 
I've read all the notes about diet and the great stories about cats who have 
lived good lives with this condition. That's encouraging.

There's not a lot of people around here who understand what I'm going through. 
I know the people in this conference will.  Thanks for listening.

NancyS

    Nancy,
    
     This sounds like a good news bad news type note. I hope the tests come
    back that there isn't too much damage yet, and that Wizard can come
    home soon. Kitty prayers are coming your way. 
    
     There are a lot of cats in this file that have lived a long time with
    this, through good diet and such. I'm so glad you brought him in when
    you noticed the weight loss. Sometimes with fluffy kitties, it doesn't
    show right away either.
    
     Give yourself a hug from me, and a gentle hug to Wizard when you see
    him.
    
     Love,
    
     Yonee
    
                                           

    Hugs to the Wizzard...and to you!!   I currently am taking care
    of a kitty that has kidney disease and the vets almost gave up
    on him in July.  The vets at that time said he was only utilizing
    a very small portion of his kidney. To date...he is doing
    great...eating like a pig, and his fur looks shiney...and
    has even gained back a few pounds.
    
    Please keep us posted.....
    
    Sandy
    

    
    My old boy Merlin (18 years, well on the way to 19) showed some
    discouraging kidney profile numbers last spring, but a course of
    subcutaneous fluids set him straight.  He really ought to be eating
    Hills KD, but he'd rather starve, so we get by on Friskies Senior.
    I've still been unable to find Whiskas Lite, which supposedly replaced
    Whiskas Expert Senior.  Merlin loved Expert and it was almost as
    low protein as KD.
    
    I've lost two favorite cats to kidney failure (at ages 15 and 17) in the
    past three years, so I know all too well what you're going through.
    
    Our best wishes to you and Wizzard.
    
    len.
      

I've been checking with the vet every day. Wizard is handling the treatment 
pretty well and has been eating the special food they have been giving him.
I can bring him home tomorrow after work. I'll be so glad to get him home.
The vet said he is either feeling a lot better or just getting used to the 
place since he is no longer growling and hissing at everyone. That's not his 
usual nature. He's a sweet, has-to-be-rubbed cat.

My question is (and I'll ask the vet) what do you do with the other cat, who is 
healthy, when is comes to having to feed one a special diet? Wizard is a wet 
food eater who occasionally nibbles on dry food. Miss Marple is a dry food 
eater who occasionally nibbles on wet food. Wizard is eating the special wet 
food at the vet's.  I free feed the cats. Can I get low-protein wet and dry 
food for both cats without doing any harm to Miss Marple? Or, if I do that, do 
I need to supplement the protein for Miss Marple?
And, I'd like some welcome home treats for Wiz. Is there anything I can use - 
like people food stuff (chicken or tuna was the usual treat)? 

Thanks for the help and encouraging words.
Nancy

    Nancy....Tuna is a definite no no because it contains well over
    20% protein which is way to much for a cat with kidney disease.
    I normally use slice chicken as a treat...and that is only about
    6% protein.  Keep extra bowls of water around the house too....
    I also found the Alpo milk is pretty low in protein vs whole milk.
    Mr Meow has drank regular milk for 17 years...so we weaned him off
    of that and onto the Alpo.  
    
    You might want to discuss this diet with the vet.  I know my vet
    suggested using KD (wet and dry) but Mr Meow would rather starve then
    eat that.   SO....we decided to try to look for low protein (8%-9%)
    cat food for him.  We discussed this with the vet...and since Mr 
    Meow is going on 18 years old...I just cannot force him to eat
    the KD and prefer to keep him eating and happy!!
    
    Since I have multiple cats (many) it is very difficult at feeding
    time!!  We TRY to keep Mr. Meow away from the other type of wet
    food...but I can't say we win the battle all the time.   It just
    so happens Mr. Meow doesn't care for dry food...so I can continue
    to free feed dry food to my crew!!
    
    Good luck and keep us posted.
    
    Sandy

	We made it home safely on Friday in spite of the torrential 
	downpour. Wizard seemed pretty good. He wanted, and got, lots 
	of rubbing. His sister, Miss Marple, gave him a few pretty good 
	hisses. I'm assuming it was the vet smell, but my husband thinks 
	she was getting used to being the only cat and needed to remind Wiz 
	who is boss.

	The k/d food is semi-tolerable. I caught him nibbling at it a couple 
	of times. I haven't seen him in Miss Marple's dry food and hope he's 
	not sneaking it. He's lost about 5 pounds through all this (down 
	from 14). The vet said not to expect him to gain much weight. I've 
	got water in the kitchen and the upstairs bathroom. I've seen him 
	drink from both. He has a vitamin supplement to take everyday. It's 
	brown stuff delivered through a dropper. It's apparently awful 
	and will stain the carpet when it gets flung across the room. I hope 
	he gets used to it because he needs to get it everyday. Since he's not 
	eating very well right now, I've hesitated to add it to his food. 

	I'm supposed to call the vet today and report on how he's doing. I'm 
	going to asked about other food choices. It sure is good to have him 
	home. I slept a lot better with him curled up next to me.

	Nancy

	P.S. Len, your Merlin must have been sending vibes this way. The vet 
	told me that Wizard was a twin to a cat named Merlin he used to have. 
	The vet kept mistakenly calling him Merlin and confusing his 
	assistants. (Wizard was supposed to be called Merlin, but it didn't 
	fit. It's still the basis for his name. Merlin was a wizard, you know.)
                

    
    Yes, I know Merlin is a wizard - I'm a big fan of the Arthurian Legend;
    one of my all time favorite reads is T.H. White's The Once and Future
    King, which I highly recommend to everyone, even if you don't think
    you're into Arthur and Merlin.
    
    len.
    

    Well, it turns out that the k/d food was tolerable at the vet's, but at
    home it's totally unacceptable. After consulting with the vet, I tried 
    putting tuna water on the food - not! Couldn't even entice Wizard to eat 
    a bit of tuna. Mixing his regular 9-lives smelly tuna with the k/d didn't 
    work either. I tried every combination of everything I could think of. 
    Taking Merlin as an example, I tried the Kal Kan Ultimum and that seems 
    to have done the trick. He ate almost a full can yesterday. That's the 
    first substantial food intake since I brought him home last Friday. I 
    was really getting worried. If he eats regularly for a few days, I will
    try to slowly introduce the k/d. I have a case of that stuff. 
    
    Last night, Wizard took a few laps around the downstairs chasing his 
    sister. It was good to see. I think we may have turned the corner here
    and we'll have a good Christmas after all. We'll see what happens
    when I put up the tree this weekend.
    
    Thanks for everyone's good advice, expecially the suggestion of the Kal
    Kan.
    
    Nancy  

    I have a few questions regarding Kidney Disease which I hope
    someone in this file can answer.  As you probably know by now..(I've
    wrote enough about him) we now are living with Mr. Meow who is
    17 years old and was diagnosed with Kidney disease last July.  In
    all honesty...at that time he was on his deathbed and they did not 
    expect him to live through the summer.. but Meow continued to get
    better and was doing great.
    
    For the last few days...I have seen some signs which are making me
    nervous and are making me wonder if we are at the last stage:
    
      o For the last two days...Mr Meow has thrown up.
      o His bowels use to be GREAT...but now it seems they are loose one
        day and firm the next.
      o He is also coughing/panting.  He always panted but the vet thought
        it was because he's also anemic)...but he seems to be doing it more.
      o He's still eating good...he still walks around...he doesn't seen
        any lazier then he was..and he still greets us with a smile...
    
    I guess deep down...I'm hoping it's just a cold/virus....but I do fear the 
    worse for the old man!!!    For those of you who have lost your kitties
    to Kidney disease...what happens in the last stages.
    
    Sandy
    

    
    I've replied to Sandy offline with the gory details.  Let's all keep our
    fingers and paws crossed, Mr. Meow's symptoms are ambiguous with respect
    to kidney failure.
    
    len.
    

    Hi Sandy,

    I lost my 19 year old Siamese to kidney failure in November. She was 
    having another one of her "spells" where she had stopped eating and 
    had become dehydrated. But this time force feeding and fluids did not 
    pull her out of it. By the way, she had been living with kidney failure 
    for 3 years. 

    I think vomiting is something that could be associated with kidney 
    failure, but I don't know about the other symptoms. I would definitely 
    ask the vet about them, though.

    Good luck with Mr. Meow. The fact that he's eating well and acting 
    normally (except for those symptoms) sounds very encouraging. I will 
    keep my fingers crossed that it's just a bug.

    Linda

    does anyone know the percentage of crude protein in dry K/D? 
    
    Deb

    I finally thought to look at the bag when I fed the kids this morning. 
    It's 25.0% crude protein.  I think fat was the same.  
    
    I never looked before. I assumed it was low protein since it was
    prescribed by the vet.  I have one cat with kidney disease and one
    healthy.  They both eat the k/d dry. Is 25% considered 'low'?
    
    NancyS

    thanks; yes; Friskie's senior is 27%, and that is about as low as you
    can get without going to a prescription diet. I think that the crude
    protien normally runs in the mid 30s (and about the same for fat and
    carbohydrates). 25% is very low, which is what a cat with kidney
    problems needs (as a cat gets to be about 7 years old, it is good to
    reduce their protien intake, but unless a young cat has kidney problems,
    it is best to feed them a high protien food).
    
    The vet was out of K/D dry, and I have the w/d on hand since my
    diabetic Jimmy eats it , so  I have been feeding her a mixture of w/d and
    Friskies' Senior for dry food; she likes's the shape of the
    Hill's products, but w/d's protien is around 30 (which is still lower
    than most stuff you buy) which is why I mix them.
    
    thanks,
    Deb

    While I'm here, I'll give an update. Wizard went for a 3 month check
    since he was first diagnosed with kidney disease. The good news was
    that he has gained a little weight and the BUN and Creatinine (sp?)
    numbers had maintained at the same levels. But, he is anemic. The vet
    spoke about a synthetic hormone, PCV, that is being used. It's
    administered in a shot for 5 days straight, then the cat is retested. 
    Depending on the results, it's followed by 1 or 2 shot a week forever.
    I'd have to learn how to give a shot (I'll do it, but YUCH!) This
    treatment has been know to slow down, if not reverse, the anemia. 
    Based on other tests results, the weight gain, and lack of other 
    symptoms, we decided to retest in 4 weeks then decide on the course of 
    action. Though it's not a major consideration while I've still got a job, 
    the shots are $20-$25 each. 
    
    Has anyone else taken this route?
    
    NancyS

    
    The protein assay of dry foods is *much* higher than that of moist/canned
    foods.  For canned foods, 7% to 8% is low, and for dry foods 25% to
    27%.  Also important is the type of protein - chicken and lamb seem to
    be the most highly recommended for cats with kidney problems.
    
    len.
    

    >The protein assay of dry foods is *much* higher than that of moist/canned
    >foods.  For canned foods, 7% to 8% is low, and for dry foods 25% to
    >27%.
    
    
    	You have to compare these on a dry basis; most moist foods are
    about 75% moisture; to calculate, multiply by 4, and you will see that
    the numbers are about the same.
    
    Deb

    
    re .60 - right, I should have said that was why there's a difference.
    
    len.
    

    Nancy....I have not heard about these shots...but I do have a 
    17 year old with Kidney Disease who is also anemic.  One symptom
    he has shown for awhile is panting...which I read was caused by
    the lack of oxygen in the blood. (anemic).  Currently we give
    Mr Meow pet tinic...which has alot of iron which is suppose to
    help this.
    
    I'd be interested in any info you do get...so please pass it along.
    
    Sandy

    RE: .58
    
    I was emailing with someone I know on the west coast. Her cat has been
    treated for kidney failure for about 1.5 years now. They gave her
    a bioengineered version of the blood producing hormore erithropoetin.
    It can't be given regularly because if it's given for too long it tends
    to cause the body to shut down natural production of erithropoetin --
    so you use it as a kickstart mechanism. Are you sure it is called PCV?
    I think that what is does is raise the PCV (Packed Cell Volume)
    
    Deb

    There is another option; a transfusion. Eirene had one and did real
    well until she had her tetracycline reaction. I'm considering having a
    second one done if her PCV doesn't jump.
    
    The cost for a transfusion was $125 (since I supplied the donor cat).
    If I had to get blood from the vet, it would have been an additional
    $200. Sometimes if the vet has a hospital cat that is looking for a
    home, that cat is used for transfusions, and if you offer to adopt the
    cat, you will not wind up paying for the blood.
    
    Deb

    Lots of good information being passed around here!
    
    re: .62  Wizard is 13 about to be 14 years old. He has been getting pet
    tinic since he was diagnosed in December. The vet said his PCV count
    would probably be a lot lower if he wasn't taking it.  We have a battle
    every night over this. Wiz will disappear whenever I even think about
    opening the bottle. 
    
    re: .63  I'll ask the vet about this hormone when we go back. The vet is
    usually surprised when I come up with questions like this. I get the
    information from the notes file then ask him about it. It makes him
    think I know what I'm talking about, then I have to stop him from 
    getting too technical.  I'm not exactly sure what the name of the
    synthetic hormone is called. My vet says it's relatively new (2 yrs?).
    
    re: .64  Wait until I ask the vet about a transfusion!  I did ask
    about kidney transplants once.  I have Wiz's sister (littermate) so I
    should have a donor kitty available if it come to that.
    
    If all goes well, we won't be back at the vet's until around April 16.
    I'll ask more questions then and will post whatever I find out.
    
    Thanks for all the great advice and information.
    NancyS     

    RE: .65
    
    1. where do you get this "pet tinic"? Eirene is alternating between pet
    tabs and a liquid pet vitamins (depending on what i can sneak into her
    food that night). Is it an iron supplement
    
    2. Eirene was transfused from her littermate Panther; they are
    "Siameese twins" (or at least half siameese twins). Even though
    cat blood isn't typed (they give the cat an anti-coagulant), the fact
    that I have her twin brother makes me feel more reassuresed about
    transfusing her. (And by the way, *I* asked about a kidney transplant
    too!)
    
    
    Good luck,
    Deb
    

    
    Hi Deb...
    
    Pet Tinic is a liquid vitamin which has alot of Iron.  If I remember
    correctly (I'll verify this tonight) it has about 14% iron where other
    vitamins I reviewed had anywhere between .5% or 2%!!!   My vet normally
    does not carry it...but I asked him to order me a bottle and it was
    delivered within two days!!!   
    
    I guess I'm lucky...Mr Meow is a chow hound and will eat anything...so
    I sneak pet tinic in his nightly dose of baby food.  That's his treat!!
    
    Mr Meow has never gone into total kidney failure...but my vet has 
    discussed that if this happens he would suggest a transfusion. 
    
    Sandy
    
    
      

    FYI - I just called Haddleigh HOuse in Sudbury. They normally carry Pet
    Tinic, but are out right now.
    
    Deb

    I definitely need two sets of kitty prayers today....
    
      Mr Meow (my 17 year old) who has kidney disease was rushed to the 
    vets last night.   When Ernie got home he found Mr Meow just laying
    around and very weak.   He also noticed that "someone" missed the
    litterbox twice yesterday...so we are assuming it was Mr. Meow.  So
    far they determined he was totally dehydrated, but the good news
    is that his kidney has not gone into failure yet.   They kept him
    over night to give him fluids...and I can call at 11:00 for an update.
    The old man was doing so well...I pray he bounces back once again.
    He's definitely a fighter.....and even though we only had him since
    last July, I feel Meow has lived with us his entire life.
    
    Ziggy, one of my strays who spends the nights in my cellar, started 
    losing his appetite last Monday and acted like he was getting a cold.
    We immidiately put him on Amoxi..and decided we would give it a day 
    before we brought him to the vets.  On Tuesday morning...he looked
    a little better..and ate more.   We have kept him on amoxi all week.
    Well after coming home from bringing Mr Meow to the vets..we noticed
    Ziggy wouldn't eat...growled at his food...was drooling...third eye
    lid is showing..and he was getting weak.   Ernie brought him to the
    vets this morning.....
    
    It's not going to be a good day....my babies need your prayers!!
    
    Sandy

    
    Kitty prayers and crossed paws for Mr. Meow and Ziggy. 
    
    Shaw (Tomba,Ziba & Keesha)

    Mr. Meow and Ziggy are in my thoughts, Sandy.  I hope all is well soon;
    you're a great "Mom"!  (And Ernie a great "Dad"!)
    
    -Roberta
    

	Sandy,

	You've got two groups of human fingers/toes crossed and I've
	sent mental messages to the furballs at home & in heaven - 
	that'll make EIGHT sets of kitty crosses (and a couple extra
	since Dickens has double-paws) !!  Hope both guys are ok -
	you hang in there !

	Debbi & the Burrage Ave. Menagerie

    Sandy just contacted me through MAIL, and asked that I enter this note
    for her. 
    
    Mr. Meow succumbed to his illness this morning. Sandy is beside
    herself, and hense the request that I enter this for her. It's not an
    easy task with my eyes all filled up. I knew Mr. Meow. He was a
    wonderful boy, and will be sorely missed by all that knew him.
    
    I am consoled by the fact that the last few months, while he was living
    with Sandy and Ernie, he was one happy, safe, warm, pampered, spoiled
    rotten furface, and really was quite healthy right up to this sudden
    setback that took him. 
    
    He is in Kitty Heaven now with all our furfaces that went before him.
    They will take good care of him.
    
    Rest well, my friend. You earned it.
    
    Love,
    
    Yonee

    I wasn't sure where to put this, but since it bagan in here, I'll add
    it. Mods, feel free to move it if you feel the urge.
    
    Sandy's kitty Ziggy is not doing too well right now either. He has a
    temp of 106, and they are having trouble getting it down. Please send
    prayers and healing thoughts to Ziggy, Sandy and Ernie. They really
    need it right now.
    
    Love,
    
     Yonee

    Plenty of prayers and crossed fingers, toes, and paws for Ziggy,
    Sandy, and Ernie from out our way.  I'm so sorry about Mr. Meow.
    He had a loved life with a wonderful mom and dad.  Joe Mao will
    welcome him to kitty heaven and show him all the warm sunny places
    to lay in.
    
    Everything crossed,
    Carl, Marie and Les Six

    Loads of kitty prayers and crossed fingers , toes and paws for Ziggy,
    Sandy and Ernie from Bob and me and our 4.  Tears for Mr. Meow.  I'm so
    glad I got to meet him.  He had a wonderful life with Sandy and Ernie.
    
    Hugs,
    Steffi 

    Sandy, you and Ernie took Mr. Meow from a situation where he would have
    surely not had the time left that he did while living with you.  He was
    cared for 100% right up until the end; he left this world knowing love,
    kindness, compassion, and warmth.  Very few living creatures get the
    second chance Mr. Meow had, so take solace in that.
    
    Hugs!
    Roberta
    

    Sandy,
    
    I'm so sorry. I know it is not easy, but please try to take some
    comfort in the fact that he spent his remaining days in the love of
    your home, and that your husband found him while he was still alive, so
    he knew you were trying to do everything that you can for him.
    
    Deb

    As an aside, I'd like to mention something I was told by a friend on
    teh west coast, and that has been proven by both Mr. Meow and Eirene
    becomming dehydrated in the past few days. 
    
    My friend told me that when the seasons change, where the temp outside
    is low one day and up the next, cats with kidney problems tend to
    dehydrate; if you are giving your cat subcutaneous fluids, give them a
    little more than normal, and maybe even a little more often.
    
    Deb

    Sandy, Ernie & the rest of the gang,

    Lots of prayers, crossed fingers, toes, and paws for Ziggy and tears
    for Mr.Meow - this sure has NOT been a good year for the pets in our
    lives............I'm just grateful that Mr.Meow had Sandy & Ernie
    and such a good time the last few months - we also are grateful because
    we learned a lot from Sandy when my roommate's Neely was diagnosed with
    kidney disease................

    Hang in there, Sandy !
    Debbi

    Sandy,
    
    I'm so sorry to hear about Mr. Meow.  Know that you gave him a
    wonderful home for his last months.
    
    Hope Ziggy is doing better...
    
    Linda

    
    Sandy & Ernie, my condolences, it never gets any easier. 
           My prayers for little Ziggy on a quick recovery. 
    
    Shaw

    Sandy,
    
    I'm so sorry about Mr. Meow. I'll be praying for Ziggy.
                                                 
    Rebecca

	Well, we went back for a check up 4 weeks after anemia was found.  
	The PCV numbers had dropped some more. We are going to start the 
	synthetic hormone treatments. This is a shot a day for 5 days 
	(and I learn how to do this), retest, then 2 a week for 3 weeks, 
	retest, then 1 or 2 a week, depending on the test results.

	I got a little shook up at the vet's office and didn't ask all the 
	questions I had planned to. We may be talking about the same hormone 
	as mentioned by Deb in 66.63.  This is supposed to replace the hormone 
	the kidney produces which makes the bone marrow produce red blood 
	cells. (I think I have that right.) It is a long term treatment since 
	it replaces the natural production of this hormone.

	The vet says they have had a lot of success with this program when 
	the PCV numbers are in the low twenties (Wizard is at 21.0). If they 
	wait until the numbers are in the teens, they don't have much success.  

	Wizard hasn't lost anymore weight, he eats, drinks and grooms. We'll 
	start next Monday. The vet has to order the drug and won't get it 
	until Tuesday or Wednesday. The vet was very optimistic. We have a 
	battle every night when I try to give Wizard his vitamins. I don't 
	know how I'm going to handle giving him a shot.

	The vet is supposed to call me tomorrow to let me know when he gets 
	the drug. I try to remember to ask him exactly what it is. 

	NancyS

    I was very sorry to hear of the latest update at the show this weekend
    instead of seeing it here earlier.  I wish I had known. 
    
    Sandy and Ernie, my thoughts are with you.  Big hugs to you both.
    Karen

    I wanted to put this in a separate note from .85.
    
    PetTinic is manufactured by Beecham and can be found usually
    at Haddeleigh House.  I wasn't looking for it, but she usually has
    it when she comes to the show.  Any of the veterinary supply catalogs
    sell it and so does Chelmsford Pet Supply on Summer Street in
    Chelmsford.  Countryside Veterinary Hospital in Westford also carries
    it.
    
    I would also like to suggest something called VAL Syrup.  It is a liver
    fraction and vitamin supplement.  Probably the best thing you can buy.\
    It does wonders for kitties that are ailing and need boosting.  You can
    mix it right in with their food (PetTinic too) or they may just like it
    for lapping off of a spoon.  Vets also use this sometimes to mix with
    different medications that they have had to liquify.
    Karen

    I managed to get some Pet TInic from a vet supply house. Unfortunatly,
    Haddleigh House is out of it and has been ordering it for a while.
    Martha told me that it had soemthing to do with a truckers strike
    somewhere in the Pacific Northwest.
    
    My advice is that is you use this stuff and can get it, stock up.
    
    Deb

    Thank you for all the notes and phone calls regarding Mr. Meow
    passing away.....this file is the greatest place to go for support.
    And special thanks to poor Yonee who did me a big favor and updated
    everyone on Mr. Meow's passing.  Your note was beautiful...
    
    The following note is dedicated to Mr. Meow....it is long and you
    don't have to read it...but I just needed to write it because it 
    makes me cry...and that's what I need to do!!  He will be missed so 
    much.....he was such a sweet boy!
    
    Thanks so much for your kind words and understanding..
    Sandy and Ernie and all the other furfaces!
                           
    

                           Mr Meow  (Meowser)
                             1976 - 1994
    
What can I say Mr Meow, my old man....you have lived 17 years as the
great outdoorsman/hunter and you have spent the last 10 months in our
loving home under our care. You brought us so much joy, hope and laughter
we miss you so and hope you are at peace. 

About 18 years ago we remember the day you were brought home to Hope,
(my sister-in-law) as a little terror kitten.  We all thought you were
a female and since the only word Hope (only 2 at the time) could say 
was "Meow"...you ended up being called Mrs. Meow!  Boy were we all surprised 
the day you went to get spayed the the vet said "guess what..he's a boy
you'll have to call him Mr. Meow!"  My best memory was when Babe (a 150 
pound New Foundland Dog) would come in from the outside and be wet..and 
you would spend hours sitting there lapping him dry.  You lived a long, 
unbeleivable healthy, free life considering you hadn't been to the vet for 
16 years and lived mostly as an outdoor kitty. You were one luck kitty... 

I remember the day last July when Daddy brought you home because you were 
on your deathbed....and we truly didn't think you were going to make it 
then.  You had stopped eating/drinking, you were flea infested, your fur 
was turning red, you had quit washing, and every rib on your body was 
showing.  You were going down hill very fast.   I remember the look on the
vets face the first time he saw you and all he could say to us was "he's
pretty old ya know".   He truly didn't think you would live to August...
but dam we all tried so hard together.

You came home and was put in our cage in the living room.  I remember you
just lying there...and it looked like you didn't want to move.  And then
the next day you just started eating baby food off my finger..and lapping 
water.  At that point I didn't think it would be long...but I had a little 
hope!!  I remember the first night I caught you trying to wash your face
for the first time and you were so weak you had a hard time balancing on
three legs.  I sat there and smiled...with tears running down my face...just 
thinking "by god..he wants to live"!!!  

And then I remember the day when you started "tearing" the cage apart..you
wanted out so we graduated you to our bathroom for the next week.  You
continued to get stronger..and it wasn't until the night we heard you
howling in the bathroom (you scared us to death) and we ran into see what
happened and you were sitting so proudly on the counter...just howling
at yourself in the mirror.  We knew it was time to graduate you to the
rest of the house!!!  You had put on a few pounds, your fur was nice
and shiny, you got a bounce back in those tired legs,  and you started 
looking great!!!

Of course...being a 17 year old who lived with dogs, but had been only cat 
all his life..we had no idea how you would accept your other 10 brother and 
sisters.  What a trooper you were when we made the formal introductions.  
I know my other furfaces had alot of respect for you...but did you really 
have to go and start swinging paws at JC who is my biggest kitty. (18 
pounds). Thank God JC was a gentleman and did not swing back!!!!! For
the next 9 months...you lived amongst all of us and got plenty of love
and attention.   I remember in March when you would sit and stare out the
window and Daddy felt so bad for you he decided to take you for a walk
outside!!    He held you ever so gently and placed you on the grass....
where those old little feet started running like mad and you growled the
entire way.  You wanted out...but I'm sorry sweetie...you were just to
weak and you could not defend yourself outside anymore.   Daddy picked you
up...and boy you growled all the way back inside!! (we weren't laughing
at you...just  giggling because it was kind of funny)

You lived a long, healthy, happy, and free-spirited life. And now you 
are at peace in the warm sunshine, gentle rain and loved once again
by your beloved Babe and all our kitties who have gone before you.
We will miss you Mr. Meow...our old man!!

Sweet dreams...
Mom, Dad (Poco, Barkley, Angus, Chloe, Dewey, Abby, JC, Bogie, 
          Van Gogh, Moses, Ziggy and Rio)

    Oh, Sandy, that was so beautiful!  I'm so sorry you lost him, but you
    have some wonderful memories, and know that he was loved.  
    
    In sympathy, 
    
    Linda
    

    Sandy, that was such a beautiful tribute.  Made me cry, too.
    
    Hugs,
    Steffi and Bob and the furry 4

         Love and hugs to you, Ernie and your crew.
    
    					 - Andrea

    I know this is late... but God bless you and Ernie for being
    such wonderful people and taking this super kitty in.  He
    had the best 10 months of his life being spoiled rotten in
    your home.  He's looking down on you both now with love and
    affection and is grateful for the wonderful care you both
    gave him.
    
    Pam

    And this is late, too, but Pam and I have been having fun in
    Northboro!!
    
    Sandy and Ernie, when MY time comes, I wanna go in your house!!  I
    can't imagine two more caring, dedicated people who would care for me
    when my time comes.  I don't think I can count on Mikey and
    Beth....they'll just want breakfast!!
    
    Sorry about Mr. Meow...he's another star in kitty heaven...
    
    Mar

    Hi,
    
    I'm new to NOTES but am so thankful and grateful I have found FELINES!
    
    I am in need of advice, comfort and support as I care for my best
    friend of 15+ years (not sure how far I'll get with this note
    since I'm already tearing up) who has been diagnosed with kidney
    failure due to his age.
    
    I apologize if this is lengthy...I just need to unload somewhere.  I
    feel like my heart is breaking.
    
    I have had Chico so long I can't remember him not being in
    my life.  I also can't imagine life without him - he is such special
    part of my life.  I just keep telling myself that I have been so very,
    very lucky and blessed to have had him in my life for as along as I
    have.  I love him to pieces! 
    
    We've been saying he is 15 for the past few years so his true age is a 
    mystery.  For the most part, he has been very healthy except he did have 
    his left ear canal removed in 1988 because he had such a severe problem 
    with polups (sp?).  As a result, his left ear is sewed shut but he's been 
    just fine - except he looks like he wore a beret over his left ear!  
    That was an *expensive* operation.  Luckily my dad paid for it - don't 
    think he had the heart to not pay for it!  :)
    
    Last March my husband and I moved away from mom and dad's and took
    Chico with us.  I decided to "convert" him to an indoor cat since the
    apartment we were moving to was not in a "safe" area for Chico -
    besides, he grew up at my mom and dad's and really only knew that area
    as *his* territory.
    
    This past winter I noticed some changes in Chico - he was drinking lots
    of water and was having a problem with fur balls.   After many trips,
    blood work and urine culture, it has been determined that he is
    suffering from kidney failure due to his age.   I feel very confident
    that I am doing all I can to maintain/control his condition -
    unfortunately, he's losing weight so the vet gave me something called
    Nutri-cal for help add calories etc to his diet and gave me a RX for
    steroids.  Please cross your fingers that this helps him gain some
    weight.
    
    He is on a special diet and of course, hates the Hills K/D dry and
    moist food.  I do leave out the dry for him to nibble on but he is so
    smart - he knows when I mix even a little of the moist with his regular
    food.  The vet has agreed that right now, it's best if I alternate
    different foods for him - sometimes I boil chicken breast (which he
    LOVES) and other times I alternate with a Senior cat food.  
    
    Does anyone know of any brands of food (either at a pet store in a
    supermarket) that is for a Senior cat who has a kidney problems?  The
    more variaties/alternaitves I have, the better!  
    
    I believe I have caught his illness early enough but every morning I 
    leave for work I tell him I love him and give him a big kiss...I just
    don't know what to expect.
    
    Any help, support, advice would be greatly appreciated!  Thanks for
    listening.
    
    Michele    
    

    Sandy Merritt is the notesfile expert on old-age kidney disease.
    She rescued Mr. Meow (who sadly just recently passed away), but
    was able to put on weight and kept healthy for over a year.
    I believe you need to find food that is LOW in protein (Sandy can
    give you brand names).
    
    The best of luck to you and Chico.  Give him a kitty-hug for me.
    
    Pam

    Thanks, Pam!!
    
    Chico and I appreciate your well wishes.  
    
    Having this NOTE available will certainly help me be as informed as
    possible about Chico's illness not to mention what it will do for my own
    emotional well-being!  It's so hard to express to people who have never
    owned a pet what I'm going through and this outlet definately help!
    
    I can't wait to go home and shower Chico with lots of hugs!!
    
    Thanks once again,
    
    Michele and Chico too 

    Hi Michele....
    
    Hugs and prayers to both you and Chico.   I do have some experience
    (I wouldn't consider myself and expert yet...but getting there) in
    dealing with cats with kidney problems.   As Pam said Mr Meow
    was one kitty with kidney disease who we brought back to life
    in July after the vets didn't feel he would make it to August.
    Mr Meow...just passed away in April and I will admit he had a heck
    of a wonderful spoiled life at our home for over 10 months.  The
    funny part is the day Mr Meow passed away...I found out Ziggy
    who is one of my other kitties now has kidney problems too!!!  
    
    Some key points:
    
      o Leave plenty of fresh water around the house.  Cats with 
        kidney diseases know enough to drink extra water to keep
        the kidney working.   We added multiple bowls around the
        entire house!!!
      o Try real hard to keep the protein intake low.  I believe the
        KD is 7.5%...but in Mr Meow's case he would not eat it.  So
        we tried real hard to feed him Senior food or Kal Kan
        Optimum which I believe is only 8.0% protein.   His treats
        were either meat baby food (8% protien) or slice chicken (6.5%).
        STAY away from Tuna (20%) or whole milk (20%).  The new Alpo
        milk for cats is pretty low in protein too!!!  I also have
        a home-made diet which is equivalent to KD...if you would like
        it just let me know and I will send it to you. (I think I
        posted it somewhere in the Kidney note in this file which is 66.)
      o Pet Tinic or vitamins which have ALOT of iron are helpful too.
        They are considered blood builders...
      o One thing I did NOT learn to do for Mr Meow...but recently have
        learned for Ziggy was how to give fluids.  Fluid are important
        especially if the cat gets deyhdrated.  You should have your vet
        teach you how to tell if he is deyhdrated...and also show you
        how to do fluids in case of an emergency.   I'm one person that
        faints when she see's needles...so it was very hard for me to
        learn how to do this.   I still get a "sick" feeling when I do
        it...but I am getting better at it!!!
      o Most of all love him...spoil him and treasure each day.  Kitties
        with Kidney Disease can live a long time.   I do believe Mr Meow
        had problems with his kidneys about 2 years before we took him
        in our home and he passed away at the age of 17!!
     
    Deb Skaltsis...is really an expert on kidney problems, so I'm sure 
    she can add some advise too!!!!   Please feel free to ask any question
    or write to me off line!!!  Also note 66 has ALOT of helpful 
    information and would be worth reading.
    
    Sandy
    
    
    
    
    
    

    Hi Sandy,
    
    Thank you for your advice.
    
    I am so sorry about the loss of Mr. Meow and hope that Ziggy is doing
    well.  Are Ziggy's kidney problems in the "early" stages?
    
    Luckily I caught Chico's kidney problems in the early stages - that is,
    he hasn't developed other conditions yet.  He just drinks lots of water
    and has a little fur-ball problem which isn't related to his kidney
    problems but doesn't help his overall health.  Luckily he's a fairly
    good patient because I've been giving him medicine for his fur-balls
    and just got something called NUTRI-CAL to help replace the nutrients
    etc he loses since he urinates more frequently.  The vet said he would
    probably like the NUTRI-CAl and lick it off my finger but no such
    luck!  Chico's too smart for that!  He sees the tupe and runs for cover
    but I also think he knows it's for his own good.  :-)
    
    I do leave lots of fresh water for him and even placed a bowl in my
    bedroom since he insists on tipping over my water glass and lapping it
    up.  He had me going for while though at first - I couldn't figure out
    how I was tipping over my glass in the middle of the night.  I was
    really beginning to think I was clumsy until one morning I caught him
    in the act of tipping over my water!  Smart!   Poor, little guy, that's 
    when I really realized how thirsty he must be because he had plenty of 
    water in the kitchen which is not too far from the bedrooom.  So now I
    make sure to leave him lots of fresh water.
    
    Not sure if I can "stomach" giving him fluids but if it means helping him,
    I'll do it!  I'd do anything to help him.  "We" have a weight and blood 
    check at the vets next month so I will have to ask the vet about this 
    procedure and how to tell if he's dehydrated.  Also will have to ask him 
    about Pet Tinic and/or vitimims.  The vet will be so surprised when I ask 
    him all these questions! 
    
    I'm not good with blood, needles etc. but it is amazing how quickly
    that goes away when you really need to help someone you love.  When
    Chico had his left ear canal removed I almost fainted when I went to
    pick him up!  I was NOT prepared for what I would see.  He did not look
    like the same kitty I left at the vets -  except his big green eyes
    which looked into my eyes and said, "I'm soooo glad to see you, mad, 
    but glad to see you. Take me home!"  Half his head was shaved and since
    they worked so close to his left eye and the nerves, the eye twitched and 
    rolled for a while.  However, I had to be strong and take care of the
    drainage hole, bathe it and give him medicine.  Somehow, I did it
    and he was a wonderful patient!  
    
    I appreciate your suggestions for low protein foods.   The choices are
    limited but your suggestions just helped me add a few to his list!  He
    really doesn't like the Hills K/D food so I try to alternate his menu
    with a little boiled chicken breast, dry Hills K/D (which he will
    nibble on occassionally) and regular moist cat food.  I knew about the
    Senior brand but unfortunately they have only a few flavors and Chico
    is very finicky!  He loves the Kal Kan Optimum!  The vet also suggested
    cottage cheese.  
    
    My main concern now is to help him gain some weight since he's been
    losing weight.  Since he's on a limited diet and finicky it's been hard
    to find foods he likes but he loves chicken and Kal Kan Optimum so I
    plan to give him lots this weekend!  
    
    Well, I'm off to spoil my baby and give him lots and lots of lovin's!
    
    These notes have really helped - in  more ways than one!  I came into
    work with a heavy heart but I'm leaving feeling more at ease.  It's
    hard for me to realize he has this illness - on the outside hs looks
    like the Chico I've always known.  Other than being skinnier than usual 
    (he was always a BIG cat) he seems fine. He's still goes wild with his
    cat-nip, loves his cat napper attached to the window, loves to sprawl
    out in the sun and loves to share (hog!) my pillow at night.   Also has
    the loudest motor I've ever heard!  So my biggest fear is that one day
    it will suddenly change - without any warning; or I'll have to make a
    decision and it tears me up inside to even think it.  I just pray that
    he doesn't suffer or that his quality of life doesn't get affected and
    that I don't get blinded to his true condition because I don't want to
    face it.  I just hope that he goes in my arms like my friend's cat did.
    Better go before I start crying again.
    
    Thanks to all!
    
    Michele and Chico 

	What's going on that so many of us are dealing with kidney disease?

  	Wizard and I just went through a week of daily injections with a 
	synthetic hormone to raise the PCV count. Wizard had become anemic 
	as the result of kidney disease. It wasn't fun. The first two days 
	went alright. Wizard would greet me at the door, I'd grab him, put 
	him in the carrier and go off to the vet. The next day it took me 
	twenty minutes to find him (in the back of the guest room closet 
	behind a suitcase.) The next day, he was in the dead center, 
	unreachable, under the bed. I ended the week having to drag him out 
	from under the couch (which he shouldn't have been able to fit under). 

	The good news is that the PCV count is up to 26 - low normal. The vet 
	was even surprised. We are now waiting a week to see how it changes 
	so the dosage can be fine tuned. I'll learn how to give the shot and 
	give it at home in the future. Also, he has maintained 9.8 pounds for 
	the last two months.  He was originally 15 pounds and went to 9.4. 
	At least it's stable and he hasn't lost any more.

	The hardest part is that Wizard is so paranoid that I can't even 
	reach towards him to rub him. He thinks I'm either going to cart 
	him off to the vet or force Pet-tinic down his throat. It breaks my 
	heart to have him shy away from me.  He's usually right by me at 
	all times. Maybe a week's break from all this will turn him around. 

	We seem to be maintaining at our household. I hope it continues and 
	wish the best of luck to all others having to deal with kidney 
	disease.

	Nancy
                                             

     >> What's going on that so many of us are dealing with kidney
        disease?   Deb Skalatis made a point that the changing of
        the seasons/tempature...takes it's toll on cats with
        kidney problems!!   
    
       One suggestion on giving a cat Nutra-Cal that really doesn't
       want to take it...is put the Nutra-Cal on his paw ...and I can
       guarentee he'll run away but within 1 minute you will see them
       lapping their paw!!!  When you put it on...squish it a little
       so he doens't have the opportunity to fling it across the room!!
       Works everytime at my house!!!!
    
       Take each day as it comes...last July I thought I saw Mr Meow
       at his worse and then when we brought him back to life, I truly
       expected that when the time came we would see him go back down 
       hill...s l o w l y!!!   That wasn't the case....and when I think
       back now it was much easier on him and us that he just passed
       away without going through alot more suffering.  It was just so
       unexpected to us!!
    
       Hugs to Wizzard and Chico...
    
       Sandy
    

    Hi to all,
    
    In trying to help Chico eat a low protein diet and gain weight
    (unfortunately, he has lost weight in the last two months), I have
    found food choices very limiting.  Chico *hates* the Hills K/D food.  He
    will nibble at the dry version but that tends to happen only when he's
    really hungry.  The vet told me I could substitute chicken breast,
    turkey breast, cottage cheese and the Senior brand store-bought cat
    food - I think it's Friskies.  Unfortunately, he doesn't like all 4-5
    flavors of the Senior brand.  Plus, since he's very finicky, he could
    like it one day and the next, turn his nose up!  Luckily, through these
    notes (thanks Sandy!) I found out that Kal Kan Optimum is low in protein 
    and has more flavors to choose from.  Chico gobbles this food up like it's 
    gourmet food!!  Yipee!!!  It makes me feel so good when he gobbles up
    his food!
    
    Last night I was reading the labels at the supermarket and noticed that 
    Sheba was low in protein too.  Has anyone used Sheba or would you
    recommend using it?  Chico loves this kind too.  With a cat this fussy,
    I like to have some alternatives.
    
    I'll have to try the suggestion to put the NutriCal on Chico's paw
    tonight (thanks again, Sandy!).  Not to sound stupid, but should I put
    it on the top or bottom of his paw?  I have visions of him racing
    across my peach carpet into my bedroom and onto the bed!  Thank heavens
    for Carpet Science!  I have been fairly sucessful putting some on my 
    pinky and then wiping it on the side of his mouth but his paw may work
    better - will let you know.  
    
    Thanks to all!  Big hugs to all kitties and thier moms and dads battling 
    this awful disease.
    
    Michele and Chico 
    

    
    	I use the Petro-malt with my two furfaces - Jebb loves the
    	stuff and comes running when he sees the tube, Whitney won't
    	voluntarily take the stuff if her life depended on it!
    
    	Jebb happily licks it off my finger, but I rub a small amount
    	into the top of Whitney's front paw. Yup, she runs like heck,
    	but then licks it off to clean her paw .... sooner or later
    	she'll catch on ....
    
    		Heidi

    well, puting the nutracal on Eirene's paw will garrenty that it will
    just harden there. She knows what it is and WON'T lap it off.  What
    I finanally got an oral syringe and every night I squeeze 2 tsps of it
    into the syringe, and put that into Eirene's mouth (weather she has
    been eating or not). It is the fastest most painless way to get it into
    her and not all over both of us and the house. It can also be mixed
    into baby food and syringed into her mouth.
    
    As for the dry K/D, when Eirene doesn't want it I've found that if I
    soften it with a little water, of sprinkle water and heat for a few
    seconds in the microwave (just long enuff to get the aroma out and to
    soften alittle, I can usually coax Eirene to eat.) However, if she
    doesn't want to eat, I'd be dilligent about looking her mouth over for
    little leisons; a shot of vitimin C from the vet will heal them over in
    hours.
    
    Deb

    Deb,
    
    The oral syringe sounds like a great idea!  Where can I buy one?  I'm
    supposed to give Chico 1 tsp/day and squeezining little dabs onto my
    pinky on one hand and restraining him with the other is quite a task! 
    
    Will have to try adding a little water and microwaving the dry K/D
    food. Can't wait to try everyone's great suggestions!!  
    
    Thanks!
    michele and chico

    any drug store; I've gotten them at CVS and OSCO; They are about $2.00,
    and you will find them along side eye droppers.
    
    Deb
    

    Hi Deb,
    
    Thought I'd give you an update of my first (and maybe last?!!) attempt
    at administering the NutriCal to Chico with the oral syringe.  I was so
    excited about the idea of using the syringe that right after work I
    stopped and bought one.  
    
    It looked easy enough to use plus had measure marks which would make it 
    easier for me give him the right amount.  I filled the syringe up,
    grabbed Chico and sat on the floor with him armed with paper towels in
    case he spit it out.  Since I was afraid of dispensing it too quickly (
    I didn't want him to choke on it since it's kind of thick and gooey) I
    grabbed him by the scruff of the neck (like a mother cat does to her
    young) and slowly dispensed a bit into the side of his mouth.  It
    wasn't easy but it looked like it would work ok.  However, he started 
    to shiver a little - kind of like a dog does when its on its way 
    to the vets.  Could that have been nerves?  He seemed ok so I continued
    but then he started with a low growl which increased.  My husband even
    noticed it which is amazing since he was so into the Bruins game that
    the apartment could have been on fire and he wouldn't have noticed! 
    Luckily Chico didn't lash out at me.  Could his growling just have
    been his way of warning me he was REAL mad and not happy?  Any
    suggestions for future attempts?  I did try placing some on his paw but
    he kind of held his paw out like it had this enromous weight on it!
    
    Thanks,
    Michele and Chico  

He may not like it but he needs to eat it. If he spits it out and you're feeling
lucky, stick some on your finger and deposit it on the roof of his mouth. You
can use tongue depressors instead of your finger (hurt much less when he bites
'em). When you first put it in you can gently hold his mouth so there's room to
chew but not spit it out. It's supposed to taste good, but the majority of cats
I've used iton refuse to eat it voluntarily.

When our cat stopped eating (liver disease) we jump-started him with little
pieces of cheese food ("A spoonful of sugar helps the medicine do-own, medicine
go down-own, tra-la-la"). Never did get Smokey to eat the Nutrical. Went with
Pet-tinic, Pet-tabs F/A granules and cheese-spiked cat food. I currently feed
our ancient vet mascot Betty C/D spiked with cheese and sirloin steak (cat eats
more steak than I do) and it keeps her appetite up pretty well.

It's amazing what songs you can use when you're alone at night at the vets -
Sound of Music scores (above), etc. I do a great rendition of Singing In The
Rain when giving baths. My fellow employees think I'm a bit off my rocker, but
they probably did before so who cares :-)

I'm singin' in the rain!
Just singin' in the rain!
Oh what a feeling - I'm soapy again!
...
And...
Oh rub-a-dub, just-a-standin'-in-my-tub
Thinkin' that my day was all through.
Then along came Trace with his Mycodex Pearlescent bottle of goo
So I jumped 'out the tub,
put out my claws,
and gave a long, loud, really deep "Mew!"
And then-a Splish-Splash-get-back-in-that-bath
'Cause I ain't through with you
...

							Trace

    To back up to about .100 with Wizard and his injections - 
    
    We just finished 6 weeks of me giving Wizard one injection of
    erithopoetin each Friday. Last Saturday he was retested. His PCV count
    is at 29. It was 30 six weeks ago. That's still the low end of normal.
    The vet is pleased with how things are going. We're changing the
    routine to 1 injection every other week. If there's any change I'll
    bring him back to the vet, otherwise it should be about 3 months before
    I run out of medicine and will have to take him back. Wizard is active
    and is eating well. I'm thrilled that we're maintaining so well.
    Wizard and his sister, Miss Marple, have their 13th birthday on Friday.
    We'll celebrate with a little baby food chicken. 
    
    Nancy

    Nancy,
    
    I'm very glad that Wizard seems to be holding in the near 30s. A friend
    of mine on the west coast's cat is on this too, and her cat seems to be
    holding around the same (27-28)
    
    Happy Birthday to Miss Marple and Mr Wizard!
    Deb and THE FIRM 

    The last time we were there, the vet mentioned that Wizard's teeth
    could stand a good cleaning. They are pretty bad. I had this done before, 
    but that was before the kidney disease was discovered. There's risk to 
    this which I am trying to weigh. It's risky to put a cat under anesthesia 
    under any circumstances, but that risk is increased with kidney disease. I
    believe they pumped a lot more fluids in him during the procedure. On
    the other side, not cleaning the teeth can lead to a build up of
    bacteria which could get into the system and do more damage to the
    kidneys.  I'm going to be out of town and plan on boarding both cats at
    the vet's. It would be a good time to get this done. Of course, that
    means an increase in my worry level while I'm away. I plan on having a
    long talk with the vet about this. It was only mentioned in passing,
    but I'll want all the details before I decide what to do. I was
    wondering if anyone has had to deal with teeth cleaning and kidney
    disease. Any opinions?
    
    Thanks,
    Nancy

    Nancy,
    
    if Wizard is mellow enuff, they might be able to do it without putting
    him under, or just mildling tranquilizing him. Eirene got her's cleaned 
    with nothing at all (and that is how we found the neck leison).
    
    Good luck,
    Deb

    Where's best place around Nashua to buy Prescription K/D food (my cat
    is *currently* eating it)?
    
    My young cat, Lucky, has just been diagnozed as having both kidneys
    *double* the normal size and operating at around 10% effectiveness...
    Other than a low-protein diet and plenty of water, is anything else
    recommended?
    
    And does anybody know why kidney transplants for cats does not seem to
    be available? (it must be as feasible as it is in humans and, alas,
    with the number of cats put down by cat shelters, there'd be plenty of
    donors)
           

    I think KD is only available thru vets.  I have the dim and perhaps
    totally erroneous idea that kidney transplants might be done at some
    vet schools, and that the way it works is that the person has to adopt
    the donor cat.
    

    Kidney transplants are done.  Not around here tho (MA).  I belive it's the
    vet school at UCal Davis that does them routinely.  You do have to
    adopt the matching donor cat.  And it's very expensive.
    
    K/D is a prescription diet, so you'll need to get it from a vet.  
    
    Best of luck to Lucky, I hope he does well with whatever treatment you
    decide on.
    
    Regards,
    liz

    We have two cats that now have kidney problems. The first was diagnosed 
    approx 6 months ago, and he now eats the K/D prescription dried food
    without any problems. He is a 4 year old Birman name of Indiana Jones
    and he seems to be managing ok. Our 14 year old moggie, name of Whisky,
    has just been diagnosed as having kidney problems, and the vet said he
    must go on the same low protein diet. The trouble is that Whisky HATES 
    the K/D dry food. My wife has purchased a few cans of the K/D food but
    it is so expensive. Does anyone know of a low protein tinned food that
    is available here in the UK that is not so expensive?.
    
    				Thanks,
    
    				Dave.