Conference misery::feline

    Hi Lee,
    
    Even though you don't think it's a bladder problem, you really
    should get them both checked out just in case.  Cats often will
    urinate/poop outside the litterbox to let you know that something's
    wrong.  You should check it out just to be sure.
    
    If all is well medically, then it is a behavioral problem.  The
    introduction of the two new kittens could be the cause.  Either
    they're upset by the kittens, or they might think there aren't
    enough litterboxes.  Try adding another one, preferably in one
    of the spots you're finding the spraying.
    
    If that fails, try caging them for a while if you can.  Cats are 
    basically clean animals and will not mess where they live.  By caging
    them, they'll use the litterbox and get used to going in it again,
    and hopefully after a few weeks they'll revert back to using it.
    
    Good luck
    Pam

    RE: -1 number of litterboxes
    
    this is a real possibility.I know my vet told me that it is good to
    keep the ratio of at least 1 box for every two cats.
    
    Also, thre are some cats that just one day decide that they want
    seperate boxes for seperate purposes (i.e., one box to defacate in and
    a different box to urinate in.)
    
    But I agreem do get them checked for a physical problem.
    
    Deb

    1.  Have them checked for a physical problem.
    2.  Look at the litterbox situation, are there enough of them
    (I have 4 for 4 cats), are they scrupulously(sp?) cleaned
    frequently (mine are completely cleaned every other day, and stools
    are scooped out of them whenever I notice them), are they in
    areas where the cats can use them without being pounced on by the
    other cats and not in high people traffic areas?
    3.  Do the cats need help adjusting to the new cats?  Give the
    older cats more calm, mellow attention so they feel secure.
    4.  Go over everything again with Nature's Miracle, to be sure
    the smell is really removed, as the smell will reattract them.
                               
    

    
    
    
    Thanks one and all for your responces,
    
    Two of the litter boxes are located in the basement and l in a porch for
    the little guys.  They are cleaned of stool twice a day and 1 for the
    other and washed our periodically.  
    
    They are over loved and get plenty of attention...and are playing and
    washing the kittens.  I really feel it is a spite thing against my
    husband and I.  We have a finished rec room and on and off the male
    for the past four years has marked everything down there in sight,
    sometimes 3-4 times.  I have tried my best to keep up with it.
    He has been checked for bladder infection in the past but nothing
    showed.  I can't afford to spend the money everytime I think he needs to
    be checked.
    
    Part of the problem is I did not intend on having more kitty's.  In
    April I was leaving for work one morning.  On my doorstep (literally)
    a kitten herself was having a litter of kittens. Momcat did not get
    along with my kittys' from day one.  I found a home for her and one
    of the babies but still have the other two.  It is to many cats in
    one house...have tried many avenues to try to find homes for the
    babies but no luck.
    
    

    I think you should add at least one other litter box.  I also
    think, IMHO, that you are feeling in cat-overload.  I know I,
    having acquired my last two cats because it was me or the "gas
    chamber", feel like that sometimes, despite the fact that I wouldn't
    give up any of them for anything.  Scrubbing up everything so
    the house looks more normal seems to help...
    

    another possibility, you might want to show affection to only the older
    cat, not to the new ones. It will make the older ones feel "special",
    and the extra attention might build the cat's self-esteem, the problem
    might go away.
    
    Deb

re .6

>    another possibility, you might want to show affection to only the older
>    cat, not to the new ones. It will make the older ones feel "special",

Oh, does this ever bring back memories.  To make Sophie feel "special" after
we brought the mob of kittens into her life, I used to feed her on my lap.  
The kittens were such frenetic eaters that they made her nervous so every 
evening I put her bowl on my lap.  My son's comment was "I knew that cat 
would find a way to get special treatment."  I kept this up for about 3 months 
-- now she's even more spoiled than ever!  BTW, she still gets breakfast in 
bed!

I know this doesn't really help with the problem, but I think there are some
excellent suggestions in here.  I hope you don't give up on them.

			SQ

    Where do you get Nature's Mircle?
    
    Linda

    most large pet store carry it. If you mention where you are located,
    someone might beable to direct you to a particular place known to carry
    it.
    
    Deb

    Try OderMute, it comes in crystal form and will kill the smell of
    everything from urine to skunk spray.  Prof. kennels use it, it's
    great.  I think I put the address of the company in another note in
    this conference some time ago.
    
    It sounds like you have a couple of angry cats on your hands.  This
    time of the year is somewhat upsetting for cats as much as humans,
    Season. Affective Disord.  If you manage to get the spray smell out of
    the house (and it can be done) you may (and I only say may) solve the
    problem of future spraying.
    
    Could another tom cat be getting in the house and spraying, and your
    cats be remarking their ground?
    
    At the moment my 4 toms are outside a lot but I dread the winter when
    they will be inside and I'll have to do the rounds every weekend again.
    
    Best of luck.

    I just saw something in the Drs Smith and Foster cataloge. It is a
    light that you shine in a darkened room that is supposed to pinpoint
    where a urine smell is comming from. Has anyone had any experience with
    these things? DO they work?
    
    Deb

    Deb,
    I have one of those lights.  I had a maddenning smell, couldn't find it
    ANYWHERE, and in desperation picked one up in Pet Supply Depot in
    Shrewsbury.  It's expensive, but it told me what I needed to know. 
    It's simply a black light.  The only think it does not work on is my
    sofa. It's a nubby texture, and one of the component of the material
    shines up like a beacon with the black light.  But it showed me lots of
    tiny little spots I never would have seen otherwise. It's a lot cheaper
    to go one of those funky stores like Spencer Gifts and get a regular
    black-light bulb.  The one I bought is a fluorescent tube, so you get a
    much wider path to examine.  But if you only suspect a couple of small
    areas, a regular black-light bulb should do it.
    I'm in HLO, so if anybody needs to borrow it let me know!
    Sarah

    I bought one, and it didn't seem to work at all on my
    hardwood floors.
    

    Well, we had a similar problem to .0 last night.  The sofa smelled
    kind of "catty," and sure enough, one of the cats had peed there.
    I was really aggravated.  We washed the sofa cushion covers, and put
    the cushions themselves out in the screen house to air.  Next I
    smooshed a ton of baking soda into the fabric to try to absorb the
    odor.  I also sprayed around with Lysol.  Although the sofa is 10 years
    old and was cheap to begin, it's still our sofa and I don't want cats
    peeing there!!!!  
    
    I don't know if Oscar, our 'nephew' did it (he used to belong to my
    husband's late brother), or if Misty, the pregnant stray that sometimes
    comes in, lost control and couldn't get to the box in time.  It does
    no good to "blame" anyone, of course, but I'd like to know which cat it
    was.  Both cats appear to be healthy -- Oscar was just seen a couple of
    months ago for a general going-over, and he was fine.  Does he need to
    see a "kitty psychologist"?  Or is Misty the likelier culprit?  
    
    BTW, I wonder when this cat is going to have her litter.  I can feel
    2 or 3 little round things in her abdomen, but it seems like she's been
    pregnant forever and should be delivering very soon.  Any help out
    there?  I'm feeling REAL sad and upset about all this!

    Since this behavior can indicate a potentially dangerous urinary
    tract infection, I think it's vet time.  Also, be careful with Lysol,
    as it is toxic to cats.  An enzyme-based cleaner available at pet
    stores or from your vet, is better at removing odor and safer.
    

    on the topic of lysol.....

    I use Nature's Miracle for cleaning the floor etc. when I clean
    litter boxes.......but what do people use to freshen the AIR when
    it's been a particularly *bad* day ??????  I've been spraying small
    amount of lysol air freshener, with best attempts to keep away from the 
    boxes/food/water.....

    Re: .16
    
    In the supermarket section where they sell air fresheners, one
    of the products whose name escapes me has a variety called
    Super Odor Destroyer.  It comes in little plastic containers
    about 4 to 5 inches tall, and you control the amount released
    by raising the top a bit.  It seems to work pretty well, esp.
    if I wave it around in the air after various events :-)  It's
    normally used by just letting it sit around.
    

    also, Arm&Hammer (the baking soda people) make an aresol air freshner
    that has baking soda as it's active ingredent. They have various
    fragresces, one of which is specifically to cover up "pet odor".
    
    Personally, I have an automatic sprayer that sprays Ozium into the
    bathroom. It seems to be a germ killer as well as a deodorant.
    
    Deb

RE: .16
 
  This isn't for everyone, but it works for us.  I got tired of all the sprays
and other types of air fresheners, so I've switched to putting dried flowers 
around the house.  I have a vase in the bedroom nearest the litter boxes and
a bough on the wall in the main bathroom which is a little farther down the 
hall.  Dried Eucalyptus has the most powerful scent so I use it sparingly -- 
people either love it or hate it.

			SQ

    re .19 -  not in my house !!!!!  every time i have flowers, dried or
    otherwise, the cats LOVE to go after them, especially baby's breath
    or that purple stuff they use in live arrangements.......

    I use a natural Citris spray ...which says it's non toxic.
    I love the smell...but most cats hate it and they usually
    leave the room.
    
    I do love dried flowers...but because of the cats I have
    had to remove all of them from the house.  
    
    Sandy

  Yeah, I understand the problems with the dried flowers.  I don't know why 
my kitties leave them alone; they certainly go after the living ones.  It 
could be the strong smell of the Eucalyptus or just plain luck.  The ones
on the bathroom wall are high enough that they can't get to them, but the 
ones in the guest room are just on top of the bookcase and should have been 
knocked over by now.  I don't use baby's breath or anything similar; they 
just can't resist anything that delicate :-)!!!

			SQ

    What is it with baby's breath anyway...  It can't be in the house
    three minutes before Sweetie has found it and is going crunch,
    crunch on it :-)
    
    Just a worrywart warning to be sure any dried flowers, herbs, etc.
    in the house are non-toxic to cats.  I read a sad story once about
    a cat who died from poisoning when some berries fell off a dried
    wreath.
    

Which we get from and also use at the vets. Usually, one spritz is all it takes.

							Trace

    RE:19-
    	To keep the kitties out of plants and such, spinkle red pepper
    in/on them...works great! 
    	I brought in my baby boy, Yip-Yip, a black male, unneutered. He's
    about a year old now. Well, my other kittie, Resin..also black is 6
    years old, she is spayed. When Yip Yip became a part of our family ,
    Resin did all the peeing and marking her territory. After awhile,
    Yip-Yip began to do it too. I just scolded him and sprayed him with
    water and he never did it agian. Resin is now just begining to tolerate
    him. For the 1st time in over a year she finnally slept against my
    tummy all night long..with Yip-Yip on the bed too! I want more but too
    many is a lot of work..I once had 25!!!
    					Katy

    The carpet/upholstery guy is coming tomorrow morning.  He has a 
    "sub-specialty" in removing pet stains/odors, so I think we'll be
    OK.  Guess I'd better make a vet appointment for Her Majesty.  It seems
    to me she's been pregnant for MONTHS.  I thought cats' gestation period
    was six weeks.  Or am I mistaken?

    I'm pretty sure the gestation period is 63 days, +/- a couple days.
    
    Leslie

    Thanks everyone for your help....
    
    I have had my male and female (Bonnie and Clyde) on antibiolic for
    about 14 days.  My female has improved but I can't say the same about
    Clyde.  He is really quite angry I guess.  He sprays anytime and
    anywhere.  He and I are not particularily friendly.  I tried sitting
    with him, feeding him special.  But nothing is going to make him happy.
    When you go to your gym bag and has been sprayed, and in you closet
    it has been sprayed you reach the end of your ropes with this stuff.
    
    He has also taken on one of the other males in the house that he use
    to get along with.
    
    This situation has been going on for a long time, as I really start
    to check areas (like the basement). I think it has just become
    much more frequent. Well, I love him but I think he is going to become
    a farm cat.
    
    
    Lee

    Might be time to speak tothe vet about something like Ovaban. 
    
    Deb

    
    	I have written in here about my female spraying and it has gotten
    worse.  She used to do it when I wasn't looking, now its "hey Ma, 
    look what I can do on the chair!"  I'm just wondering if I got 
    another cat, bigger, stronger and more dominant would that increase
    the behavior or make it worse.  OR  is there any type of surgery
    that could stop the spraying function?  I would rather pay for
    surgery than make her a farm cat but it's really getting gross!
    
    	I don't think I can make her an outdoor only cat because I
    would cave in every time she's at the door meowing.  PLEASE
    HELP!  She is a very good hunter, but I was told farm cats aren't
    fed, they just eat mice?  Is this true and does anyone know of
    any farms that would take her?     This is so hard!    Sue

    I've wondered about surgery myself.  Can't those glands be removed?
    Or those little muscles be snipped or something?  I'm not out to be
    cruel and I'm completely ignorant of kitty anatomy (as is obvious).
    
    But, if they do that (IMO, horribly cruel) declawing to save owners' 
    furniture, then isn't there a procedure for stopping the spraying?
    
    Sue
    

    I don't recollect your previous notes, but have you done the usual
    stuff (no outside cat spraying your steps, is there? It's the
    time of year for that to happen, and that triggers this in inside
    cats often)?  Had her checked by a vet? tried meds from the vet
    to deal with this problem?  Used an odor remover on the places she
    sprays so that the scent doesn't reattract her?  Found out if she's
    upset psych.?  (Are you working longer hours? new baby in the
    house? some other upset to her routine?)  This could be an attention
    getting device by a cat who feels neglected.
    

    
    	- Started doing it after my dominant cat was missing, I think 
    she took the other cats role.
    
    	- Been to the vets ($30) to find out it was all behavioral,
    vet said the med. they give male cats, something like valium,
    won't work on her
    
    	- She's not neglected, she's outside while I go to work,
    comes in when I get home, and if I sit down shes on my lap. She
    also sleeps with me.  If I leave her in during the day, I have to
    search the house for the place of odor.
    
    	- I do use Natures Miracle when I find the spot, but she just 
    goes to a new spot.
    
    	I really don't want to get rid of her but this has been about
    2 years now and I am sick of finding it on a clean pair of jeans
    or anything I pick up thats floor level.  I believe she has done
    it on every door in the house!  Oh yeah, she also does it quite
    readily outside of my house!         What to do, What to do?
    
    			Sue Fleck

    Well, I don't leave clothes or fabric stuff on the floor, or Holly
    zaps them, I've just learned not to do that.  You might call
    Cornell at 1-800-KITTYDR and see if they have a suggestion.
    

    Ovaban might be one option.  They give it to male cats to stop them
    from spraying.  It's a female hormone.  Hmmm, wonder if it will work
    the same way on a female.  The only problem with Ovaban is that it
    has the potential to cause long term health problems.  It doesn't
    happen to every cat that's on it but the potential is there.
    
    I've been lucky that my sprayer doesn't go for clothing, it's mostly
    doors, walls and carpeting...oh yeah, I think the couch got it once.
    I battle it with Nature's Miracle, or Orange TKO and my Little Green
    Clean Machine.  Now and then I borrow my mother's large carpet cleaner
    and give it the once over.  There's not much else I can do.  The valium 
    doesn't work on him.  Ovaban works but the minute I take him off it he 
    starts up again and I don't want to leave him on it long term.  He's an 
    indoor only cat who's very territorial, especially with all the extra 
    kitties I have living indoors right now.
    
    Jan

  I agree with Karen; eliminate as many potential disaster areas as possible.
We have a kitty who was a problem when we first got her as a kitten.  We got 
three kittens all about the same time (they must have been able to see the 
word "sucker" across our foreheads -- we just couldn't say no to the little 
furfaces).  Our problem kitty was the last of the three so we don't know what
caused her problem.  The other two were instantly trained but with a total of 
five cats, it's possible someone was blocking the little one's access to the 
boxes until she had a chance to exert her authority.

  It's also possible that she had just never used a box before since she turned
up as a stray at the vet's.  She loves to sleep in cardboard boxes and small 
bathroom sinks so it's possible she didn't think a box was the right place to
go.  While we waited for the peer pressure of the other cats to kick in and 
teach her, we made sure no laundry was lying around and made sure all closet 
doors were kept closed.  It didn't take long.  I wonder if you'd be successful 
in bringing in another well-trained adult cat; at this point it couldn't hurt.
She might be lonely -- she might need another cat to remind her that this 
behavior is not acceptable.  After two years, you must be going nuts.

  Another possibility would be one of those animal behavior specialists.  I 
have no first hand knowledge but your situation seems severe enough to give 
one of them a try.

  I wish you all the luck.

			SQ

    
    	I will be calling my vet to see if he will give me the ovaban. I
    can't afford a psychologist for my cat, I can't even afford one for
    myself, ha ha.  I was also wondering if bringing another dominant
    cat into the house would straighten Pumpkin out or make her worse.
    
    	Pumpkin is female and I have another, very passive female cat,
    two big lovable dogs, who love my cats and a parrot. What sex of
    cat would all you experts recommend and what age?  All this info is
    great!                   Thanks Sue

    My opionin is another aggressive cat will just make it
    worse.    There will be more territory battles.
    
    Give the Ovaban a shot...
    
    Sandy

    I agree with Sandy...don't get another cat.

    Yes, Ovaban will work on female cats. When Alexandra and Argus were going
    at it, the vet put BOTH of them on it. It stopped the agression in both
    of them. Basicly, the health problems happen with long term use. The
    usual course of treatment is the cat is given a mega-dose and is then
    slowly tapered off in 2 to 4 weeks.
    
    Deb

    
    	If the Ovaban works it will be a God send!  I don't want to get
    rid of her and I hate to make her stay out in the cold.  I take her
    to Gardner Animal Hosp., Dr. McTighe(?), will I be able to just call
    and ask for this medicine?  What if they say "no", I'm willing to pay
    for another office visit to have her RE-checked just to get the 
    Ovaban.  Hopefully I won't have any trouble, I give them enough
    business with my 2 cats, 2 dogs and my parents new dog!  How is
    Ovaban administered? Pill? Liquid? Shot?
    
    				Thanks Sue Fleck

    If your vet is familiar with your cat's current physical condition,
    often you can get an okay for medication via a phone call to the vet's
    office and just stop by and pick it up.  It depends on the vet,
    what the cat's condition is, how serious the medication is in
    terms of potential side effects, what the vet thinks of your ability
    to judge your cat's condition, give medication, etc.  It's certainly
    worth calling them and asking.
    

    typically, it is administered orally, and the dosage dispensed based on
    weight. I've typically had to bring my cats in because the vet wanted
    an accurate weight to determine the dosage (I didn't get charged an
    office visit, just for the pills).
    
    Sometimes a shot of Depo-Provera is given instead; they don't usually
    like to do this and prefer to give pills.
    
    If your vet is reluctant to prescribe, it could be bacuse the FDA has
    not OKed the drug for use in cats; dogs yes, cats no (although this may
    have changed). Most vets will still dispense it for cats, though. 
    
    I know that when I was giving it to Argus, I used to call it his "nice
    pill"; the cat would go almost instantly fram a rage into a good mood.
    
    By the way, Ovaban is a brandname; you might be prescribed something
    else that is the same drug but is a different brand. 
    
    good luck,
    Deb

    What side effects does Ovaban potentially have?
    

    
    	I called G.A.H. yesterday and they said they would talk to the
    vet and to call back, with the cats exact weight.  I weighed 
    Pumpkin when I got home and called back, they filled a prescription,
    but seeing she's due for her rabies shot in Nov. I decided to bring
    her in next week to get everything done at once.  I can also see the
    vet to ask any questions about ovaban.  Thanks for all the suggestions.
    
    					Sue

    Re:  .44
    
    I hunted around until I found this note I entered last year.  It
    contains the information I was given on the potential long term
    side affects of Ovaban.  Check note 226.* for more detail.
    
    Jan
    
               <<< MISERY::APPLE$:[NOTES$LIBRARY]FELINE.NOTE;1 >>>
           -< Meower Power - Where Differing Opinions are Respected >-
================================================================================
Note 226.58                   Help! Cat spraying!!                      58 of 66
JULIET::CORDES_JA "Four Tigers on my Couch"          30 lines  11-AUG-1994 16:51
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I'm going through this right now with Onyx.  He's on Valium to
    relax him because his problem is his strong territorial mentality.
    He started this shortly after Mac moved into the house.  He sprayed
    occasionally then and it has increased recently since I started 
    fostering the 3 strays on my patio.  In fact, he sprayed right in
    front of me twice the other day.  Obviously, the valium treatments
    are not working.
    
    The next step was supposed to be Buspar (another tranquilizer) but
    when my vet called and left a message yesterday she mentioned we'd
    put him on Ovaban (hormones).  I have a call in to find out why
    she's decided to skip the 2nd step in the process she layed out.
    
    From what she tells me there is a slight risk of long term side effects 
    which may or may not occur with the hormone.  They are diabetes, cancer 
    of the mammary glands and adrenal depression (if I heard her right on
    the tape).  I believe she's decided to go for the more effective 
    hormonal treatment in spite of the risk of side effects because he's
    so persistent.  I'll know more when I go in on Saturday (foster cat
    vaccinations) and have a chance to talk to her.
    
    I'm hoping that after x amount of time on Ovaban, when the spraying
    stops (assuming it does) that we'll be able to wean him off the 
    Ovaban and he won't resume spraying.  I hope this turns out to be
    true since I'm probably going to move to a new apartment next month
    and sure don't want it smelling like the current one does.  Guess
    I'll borrow mom's carpet cleaning machine (again) or get a professional
    in to deal with it.
    
    Jan

    
    	Good Morning!  I took Pumpkin to the vets yesterday and got
    the Ovaban.  Once a day for 7 days, then every other day for 10
    days, then once or twice a week as needed.  I can't believe how
    BIG the pills are.  Pumpkin was not a happy camper last night 
    when I gave it to her.  The vet said I should see quick results
    if its going to work.  Lets hope it does work!  Thanks for all
    the info!      Sue

    yes, they are big. You can cut them in half and coat them with butter
    (be sure to give kitty both halfs of the pill).
    
    the cat might even look forward to them.
    
    good luck,
    Deb