Conference misery::feline

            <<< DOGS::SYS$SYSDEVICE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CANINE.NOTE;1 >>>
                                  -< CANINE >-
================================================================================
Note 1095.17                1 yr ban?  will U wont U?                   17 of 17
DAGWST::BROWN "everybody run Prom Queen's Gotta Gun" 74 lines  25-MAR-1993 17:35
             -< well intentioned but won't cure what ails the US >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I received information about the 1 year breeding ban from CFA
    yesterday.  It included a copy of several articles and editorials that
    were published in USA Today.  USA Today is taking a poll about the
    breeding ban.  There is an 800 number you can call to voice your
    opinion, or you can write or fax your opinion to them.  They have taken
    a position in favor of the ban.  I do not have the phone number or
    address for USA Today with me at work, but will try to remember to
    bring them in and post them here.
    
    CFA breed registration figures indicate that only 2% of the total cat
    population in the United States is made up of pedigreed cats.  CFA is
    the largest registering body for cats in the US.  There are other cat
    associations, but adding their registration figures to CFA's would not 
    portray an accurate count of the total of pedigree cats since most 
    breeders register their cats in more than one association (for showing
    purposes).
    
    I have been fighting anti-breeding laws at the local level in my area
    for the past year and a half.  In that time I have learned a lot.  In
    my county, the shelter charges a spay/neuter deposit on any animal it
    adopts out.  When that animal is spayed/neutered, the owner can reclaim
    the money.  The spay/neuter fund is currently sitting at $49,000 in
    UNCLAIMED deposits!  That is money that can be used for no other
    purpose, and it is sitting there unclaimed because either a) the owners
    didn't bother to request their refund when the neutered their animal or
    b) they didn't bother to neuter their animal.  I think that before
    anti-breeding is instituted, we should first pass legislation requiring
    the shelters and humane organizations spay/neuter animals prior to
    adopting them out.
    
    And there is also the problem of feral cats.  These are cats that are
    unowned, and are wild.  These cats, for the most part, cannot be turned
    into pets and placed into homes.  Counties need to establish a policy
    on how to handle this problem.  Our county currently wants to just
    round them up and euthanize them.  There are two problems with that. 
    One is that then the unadoptable, feral cats become part of the count
    of animals euthanized by the shelter.  The second problem is that by
    the nature of feral cats, if you eliminate a colony from an area, a new
    colony will move in.  Cats are territorial.  Another approach, one that
    I am in favor of, is to trap the cats, test them for disease, vaccinate
    them against disease, alter them, and then release them back to their
    territory.  This program is called TTVAR by the NPA (National Pet
    Alliance) and it is being done privately, not with the county support.
    
    My bottom line is that I do not agree with the one year ban.  The HSUS
    has not provided any baseline, or any way of determining if the ban was
    successful or not.  I can see them coming back in a year and saying
    either "hey it worked, let's make it a law now" or "hey, it hasn't
    worked yet, better extend the ban for another year".
    
    I am a breeding of purebred Birman cats, and you can not just turn off
    a breeding cat for a year.  I understand that dogs only go into heat
    about twice a year.  A cat is seasonally polyestrous, that means that
    during the breeding season, it can be in heat continually until it is
    bred.  This is not healthy for the cat.  Some cats can handle not being
    bred during a season, other cats cannot.  Most cats cannot.  Stopping
    all breeding for a year could mean having to spay my females.  I am not
    a large scale breeder either. (I will define that -- I had two litters
    in 1991, 1 litter in 1992, and so far this year I have had three
    kittens). 
    
    I have one female that I just got back from a buyer.  He had purchased 
    her for breeding, but never bred her.  She is now four years old, and 
    is one of the best cats I have ever produced.  I intend to breed her 
    this year.  If she is not bred this year, she will have to be spayed.  
    The ban will not stop me from breeding this cat.
    
    I have a Bernese Mt. Dog and would love to have another.  If the
    breeding ban meant that I couldn't find a Berner in the US, then I
    would import one rather than adopting from the shelter.  I like to know
    what size dog I will end up with, and what behavior characteristics I
    can expect from the dog.  BTW, my dog is a pet and she is spayed.
    
    Jo

    Jo,
    
    I hear what you're saying, and I can understand your concerns as a
    responsible, legitimate, registered breeder of cats.  I know you have a
    small cattery, breed no more than 1 or 2 litters per year (and for
    folks who are new to reading this conference that is far less than most
    breeders breed), and that you don't breed more kittens than
    you can find homes for, and you often have a waiting list of buyers a
    mile long.  That is all goodness.
    
    However, I feel there should be a mechanism of controlling those
    breeders (in my opinion the rule, not the exception) who clearly go
    overboard in regards to the number of kittens they breed.  The last few
    times I read through my Birman and Ragdoll newsletters, the number of
    kittens most breeders had advertised in the litter announcements
    sections was astounding!  Many had at least 4 or 5 litters all born
    within a few months of each other!  With the average litter producing 4
    or 5 kittens I wonder to myself if they even have homes lined up for
    all of them.  I think a lot of breeders get so caught up in producing
    that perfect show specimen that they get carried away with the number
    of breedings they plan.  Not only that but some of these breeders who
    advertised multiple litters of kittens born had a sentence at the
    bottom of their ad that read, "too many adults, cutting back" or some
    such thing.  Now think about all the homeless cats and kittens in the
    shelters and it can be a real shame.
    
    I agree that the proposed ban won't cure the overpopulation problem. 
    Only education can do that, and the implementation of more low cost
    spay/neuter programs.  Sometimes I wonder if there even is a solution,
    and how we are going to get through to all of the brain dead, ignorant
    people who could care less about it.
    
    Anyone else care to add their thoughts to this discussion?  I am
    running out of them.
    
    -Roberta
    
    

    
    I work at a shelter, and I have friends who are breeders.  I see
    both sides, and like Roberta, I do agree that there are both
    responsible and irresponsible breeders.  However, every Thursday when
    I go to the shelter and I see 40, 50, 60 sets of eyes looking at me
    from cages, I can't help but think, "jeesh, for every purebred that
    finds a home, a mixed breed sits at a shelter and waits."  I wish that
    there was a way of getting across to people that you just have to spay
    and neuter your pet.  Both the purebreds and the mixed breeds.  If only
    breeders and shelters could convince people who take their cats that
    they need to fix the animal....if there were legal documents that a
    prospective pet owner would have to sign, guaranteeing they would spay
    or neuter or the animal would have to be relinquished.  I know a friend
    of mine who lived in Michigan got a cat at a shelter.  The cost was
    $140, but the animal would be spayed or neutered free of charge.  In
    addition, the shelter made visit to her home and asked to see the
    animal.  There had been no record of my friend returning to the vet
    that the shelter uses for spays or neuters and if my friend had not
    had the animal fixed, the shelter was coming to take it back.  Legally.
    If shelters and breeders did this, it would significantly reduce the
    amount of unwanted litters.
    
    We have a poster at our shelter.  All these kittens in a basket.  Under
    the picture is the simple statement..."Pick one, and kiss the rest
    goodbye."  Very strong statement.  Very appropo.
    
    There will always be a need for a purebred cat as long as there are
    people who want a specific breed of cat.  But there is a need to keep
    people from breeding indiscriminantly without regards to the welfare of
    these animals, and this applies to both purebreds AND mixed breeds. 
    You see every day barn cats and people who let their pets have kittens
    because they want to show their children "the miracle of birth."  Too
    bad they don't see those kittens three months later when they have to
    be euthanized because they haven't got homes.  That's not quite so
    beautiful.  It's tragic.
    
    And I disagree that most ferals cannot be tamed.  I have four ferals
    who are the biggest lovebugs you ever did see.  And most of the ferals
    who enter our shelter make a successful turnaround from wild to tame.
    And most make EXCELLENT pets.  There are only a rare, sad few who don't
    every make the transition, and I'm a firm believer that every cat
    deserves a second chance, no matter the rough start they got due to
    their human parent's complete irresponsibility in allowing them to be
    born in the first place.
    
    We as humans create this situation, and then take it out on the animal
    by destroying them.  What a deal.
    
    N 

    
    Sorry for the typos and terrible grammar in my note.  I wrote it in a
    rush, and didn't pay attention to how I phrased or spelled things.
    
    :-)
    
    How illiterate.
    
    N

    I'll add my thoughts on this subject.   I do agree that the
    main problem is not purebred cats but I also agree with
    other noters that we do have far too many breeders who in my
    opinion are not resposible breeders and who are also adding
    to the overpopulation problem.    I sure wish all breeders
    were as responsible as Jo and a few other breeders from
    this file....but that is not the case.   When I go to cat
    shows and see signs 2 for 1 sales, or free to a good home,
    or hear someone say that they have to get rid of these
    kittens because they have three litters ready to be
    delivered...I walk away (biting my tongue) feeling these 
    are not responsible breeders.

    But as you have one responsible breeder...you will have
    one that is not responsible.  Just as you will have one
    responsible shelter and others who are not.  I just 
    recently found out that a certain shelter in our area
    does not have their cats tested/neutered or provide
    vacinations such as rabies.  In my opinion that shelter 
    is doing nothing to help the cat over-population problem
    and should really be closed.    I was amazed that this
    shelter could get away with this. 

    At our shelter the cats are spayed/nuetered (if old enough),
    tested, vaccinated, checked and treated for fleas/mites
    before they even come to our shelter.   We also have a low
    cost spay/neuter program which we run with one of our local
    vets, and we also require a spay/nueter deposit ($25..plus
    adoption fee) for any kitten adopted that has not been
    fixed.  when we receive the vet acknowledgement that the
    cat has been fixed....$25 deposit will be returned.
                                                             
    I also believe in the trap/neuter/test and release of
    ferals....especially those ferals who are very nasty
    and truly will never trust humans.  But I do believe
    that if you have the volunteers to work with these
    ferals...90% of them will become adoptable and make
    wonderful pets.

    I also feel people who want to feed strays animals
    should also take it upon themselves to atleast
    fix the cats and provide vacinnations.  yes...it does
    get expensive...but if you take one at a time...you
    are also helping to resolve part of this issue.
    
    What can be done????  I'm not sure there is one
   solution but I hope everyone can come together and
   take part in solving the big issue.   I feel ALL shelters
   or rescue leagues MUST neuter/spay/test/vaccinate
   each cat that is brought in.  There should be tighter
   laws ensuring this is done.    I would somehow like to see 
   new rules stopping the irrisponsible breeders from having 
   10 litters per year.   I would like to see backyard breeders 
   stopped completely...but I'm not sure how this can be done!
   And I'd like to see more programs educating the publis
   on being a responsible pet owner and more low cost spay/
   neuter programs!!

   In my opinion this ban standing alone will not solve
   any of the problems.   The ban will not stop
   the backyard breeders...nor will it stop that family
   who wants to experience the miracle of birth...or stop
   the shelters from adopting out unfixed cats!!!!   There
   has to be multiple programs...more volunteers getting
   involved......more education...tighter laws for all....
   and everyone has to become involved!!  

   Sandy

    Sorry I haven't had the time to read in whole all of the above notes.
    I will later!  
    For now, I want to mention that I have a clause in my contracts stating
    that the animal be spayed/neutered.  Papers are given when the
    certificate is in my hands. Also, I call the owners to check how things
    are progressin.  Some of my cats have been sold already neutered too.
    
    I received just yesterday the infoletter from CFA and found it very
    interesting.  I hope to respond to Today.  Most of the breeders that
    I know personally do not contribute to this problem.  They are in fact 
    much more concientious than most.  I don't believe we will (in the near
    future) get the general public to understand the problems that exist. 
    I have a neighbor who has several cats that are never seen by a vet,
    are not neutered and when they get hit by a car and killed, they just
    get another.  I know they don't have much money, but have tried to
    suggest to them the appropriate care.  These kinds of people just
    aren't concerned!!  They came over and asked the other day if they
    could borrow our vacuum, theirs had died.  Jimmy was about to let
    them!!  I almost hit him in the head with a 2X4 !!  He then had to go
    out and explain why they couldn't use it.  Good for them I say,  you
    don't know what kinds of diseases those cats can carry without proper
    care.
    i'll get off the soapbox now, thank you!
    Karen

    I was just reading through the new replies and thinking about the new
    spay/neuter surgeries that are being done as early as 8 weeks of age,
    but have not yet been approved for widespread use.  When and if this
    really can be done, I feel the problem will be half licked, as long as
    all the shelters/breeders utilize this early surgery before
    adopting/petting out any kittens.  Also, if breeders are cutting back
    on adults and placing them into loving homes, I feel that they should
    be responsible for having the procedure done and being reimbursed by
    the buyer, to ensure the cat is definitely through having or siring
    litters.  I realize most breeders already practice this approach, so it
    is merely food for thought.
    
    Hopefully the early sterilization surgeries will be the wave of the
    future, and mandatory for all shelters/breeders to follow.
    
    -Roberta
    

    I just want to make a point about the ferals. I've captured and adopted
    (anf fixed) 6 of them. Three are (and the late Spiro was) absolute love
    bugs, to the point of being pains in the neck. Panther and Eirene are
    sweethearts but are still a bit reserved around other people. 
    
    While it took sometime to work with these ferals, one *neutered* and
    shown some kindness, it never took longer than a month to acclamate them
    in to a domistic situation. I dare say that if something were to happen
    to me and I had to put my cats up for adoption, based on their
    personality, my ex-ferals would probably be adopted first.
    
    Deb

    Like so many well meaning efforts, a ban on breeding will most likely
    impact ethical breeders and individuals the most and leave 
    irresponsible people to continue being irresponsible.  I can't see how 
    such a ban could be effectively enforced--raid any house with a free 
    kitten sign outside?   
    
    However, anything that brings animal breeding mills to a close has my
    support.  I only hope that any ban has enough teeth in it to be
    effective.

    Well, I guess I just have to put in my two cents here too. ;-)
    
    I don't think a voluntary or otherwise ban on breeding is going to do
    a bit of good, as I don't think it's really the breeders causing the
    major problem. Yes, there are irresponsible breeders out there,
    breeding like crazy trying for that perfect cat. But, like Jo and
    others said, this is not the main part of the problem.
    
    The problem is that people just don't understand the importance of
    taking care of their pets properly. Or they don't care. (You know the
    ones. They think pets are dispensible) I volunteer at the same shelter
    as Nancy Cross, and the first thing that is done when a cat is heading
    for our shelter, is, the cat is tested for FELV and FIV. If these are
    negative, the cat is given vaccinations and rabies shots,
    spayed/neutered if necessary, and treated for anything that may be
    deemed necassary. (Mites, fleas, etc.)
    
    The kittens are adopted out before neutering, but with the agreement
    that they be neutered. We also don't adopt a single kitten to a home
    with no other cats. They have to be adopted in pairs to ensure they
    have company, to help with the transition, and to keep them from being
    quite as destructive as a bored kitten can get.
    
    I think all shelters should be required to have all adult cats fixed
    before adoption, and if that early spay/neuter becomes state of the
    art, this should go for kittens too. 
    
    We tend to take in a lot of ferals at our shelter, and work with them.
    We have worked very hard with them, and a lot of them have gone to
    loving homes. We get reports back stating how loving these furfaces
    are. They are very grateful to have a warm home and full stomach, and
    no sores from fighting all the time, and tend to be very loving pets.
    
    I am working with some of our cats that hate humans a lot. Especially
    Shadow. A guy cut this poor baby's tail off!!!! No surprise that he
    hates people. I don't know that he will ever come around enough to be a
    pet, but he's going to be warm and fed and fussed over for the rest of
    his life at the shelter in any case. I'm making sure of that! ;-)
    
    I think this ban will not help, as it is voluntary first of all, and
    even if it wasn't, irresponsible people, won't pay any attention
    anyway. 
    
    If there are shelters out there placing unspayed/neutered pets,
    they should be the first ones educated on the fact that people don't
    always take the time to get their pets to the vet. It's an
    'inconvenience' and pets shouldn't be inconvenient. They should be able
    to take care of themselves, right? After all, cats have been around for
    centuries, and there was no vet care when the Pharoahs were around. So,
    why should we pamper them now?
                  
    Sound familiar? I don't agree with the above statements, but I've heard
    them ad nauseum in my adult life. I agree that more low cost
    spay/neuter programs are needed, but education is the biggest need at
    this time. If a person doesn't understand the NEED for controlling
    animal numbers, even a low cost program will not get a person to
    spay/neuter a pet.
    
    OK, I've jumped around enough here, and proabably had many typos, but I
    wanted to get all this out without dwelling on it. That usually causes
    me problems when writing. ;-)
    
    So, even though I don't exactly agree with breeding, I agree it's not
    the breeders (for the most part) causing the overpopulation problem. I
    won't go into why I disagree with breeding here. This is not the proper
    note.
    
    Education is the key I believe. I also think it has to start with the
    young people. They tend to understand new things better than adults a
    lot of the time. Maybe they can convince theirt parents to do the right
    thing. We can only hope.
    
    Yonee
    
    
    
    

    I too don't think a ban on breeding is going to help.  I'm not very
    sure what the logic is behind it - I don't see people who want to
    purchase a pure bred animal rushing to the shelters just because
    there's a ban on breeding and it is the strays and shelter cats who need
    help.  The main part of the problem is ignorance, procrastination, etc.
    on the part of pet owners.  I know my parents have been guilty of
    contributing to the problem and I still don't know why they did what
    they did at the time.  This was over twenty years ago and is a good
    example of a population explosion and how quickly it can happen. 
    Momma Cat came to us when she had a litter of kittens in the back of my 
    father's pickup truck.  We moved all the cats with us when we moved to 
    the country and they became the barn cats. I don't know why my parents 
    didn't spay and neuter them - maybe they couldn't afford it at the time?- 
    eventually we ended up with about fifty cats at the peak. They were fed 
    and cared for, but I'm sure they strayed and compounded the problem on 
    their own.  These cats were essentially feral, semi-feral - and I have to 
    say about ferals not being able to be tamed - out of all those litters and
    all those cats there was only one who refused to have anything to do with 
    humans.  Her name was Spitfire - she came out spitting and hissing and 
    stayed that way - but she was the only one.    
    
    When Sammi came in to heat early (at five months) and was too
    small to spay - I couldn't wait until she was big enough - it just
    seemed so painful for her.  But I have a friend who put off spaying her
    young female and now she's about to deliver her first litter.  My
    friend says she'll have her spayed after she delivers - she can see how
    miserable she is - but who knows.  I don't think rabbits have much on
    cats in the breeding department.  It's going to take a lot of education
    and somehow sparking people to care and to ACT - and act fast, 'cause
    the kitties don't wait.
    
    I'm rambling - but the point is I think it's everyday folks that are
    the bigger part of the problem and while you can ban breeding for the
    breeders, you can't communicate it to the cats and they're going to go
    right on doing what comes naturally if they're not physically altered
    to make it impossible.
    
    Rebecca  

    Just got back in here and I am happy to see so much discussion going
    on! :')  
    
    Wanted to clarify a couple of points I made earlier.  When I speak of
    feral cats, I am not talking about cats that live in the barn on
    someone's property.  I am not talking about cats that depend on humans
    for food, but are a bit skittish.  I am talking about cats that live wild 
    in unincorporated parts of the county, in the woods and hills, and who
    hunt for their food, and have no contact with humans whatsoever.  That
    is my definition of a feral cat.  I have seen cats like this.  These
    cats are not adoptable at the time that they are trapped.  If they were
    given to our county shelter, they would be immediately euthanized.  Our
    program, TTVAR, allows them to go on living in their territory, but it
    also provides them with vaccines to protect them from disease, and it
    makes sure that they cannot reproduce.  Maybe it is possible that some
    of these cats may go on to become pet like at some point in their
    lives, but since there is no place to house them during the interim,
    this program is best suited for them at this time.  I am sure that
    there are people that have taken a feral cat and made it a pet, I don't
    dispute that.  But, I am talking about feral cats on a grand scale. 
    Not one or two, here and there.  I am talking about a colony of say
    30-50 feral cats at a time.  
    
    I appreciate the fact that you all think that I am some exception to
    the breeder rule because I breed on a small scale, but I know more
    breeders like me than I know like the ones you describe.  There are
    irresponsible breeders, but there are a lot of breeders that are not
    irresponsible.  Registered purebred cats only make up 2% of the total
    cat population in the United States.  I think that says it all. 
    Legitimate breeders and purebred cats are not the bulk of the problem.
    
    The problem with a ban such as this is that it is only enforceable on
    the legitimate breeder.  We are easy to find.  Just attend a cat show
    and pick up cards.  Then slap the cuffs on us. :')
    
    I think that there are other ways to help curb the unwanted pet
    problem.  Early spay and neuter is something that can help.  I have
    already spoken with my vet about spaying my pets before selling them.  
    In my many years of breeding, I have only had one pet owner refuse to 
    alter his cat.  I had a written contract with him and started 
    proceedings to take him to court over it.  He gave in before court and 
    had his boy neutered.  I could avoid all that hassle by neutering and 
    spaying pets before placing them.  Sounds good to me.  Would save me 
    money too.  Like Karen, I check up on the pet owners to be sure their 
    cats get spayed and neutered when the time comes.  This costs me in terms 
    of time and money (long distance phone calls, etc.).  I think that shelters
    should utilize early sterilization too.  It is being done at a shelter
    in Georgia, I think.  There was an article about it in the CFA Almanac
    recently.
    
    The shelter in our county doesn't want to do the early
    spaying/neutering.  They also don't want to spay/neuter adults before
    adopting them out.  They say that they don't want to spend the money to
    alter a cat that may not get adopted.  Also, if they wait until there
    is a potential adopter, then tell the adopter they have to wait a few
    days so the cat can be altered, they say the adopter doesn't want to
    wait.  The shelter thinks that they lose adoptions by asking the
    adopters to come back in two days to pick up their altered cat.  I
    think that if that is the case, then the adopter may have made the
    decision to adopt on a whim, and maybe wasn't a good home to begin
    with.  Anyway, we have gotten nowhere fast with trying to convince our
    shelter to spay/neuter before adopting a cat out.
    
    Ken and I support low cost spay/neuter through our cat clubs.  We
    donate money annually to groups that either provide funds for spay and
    neuter, or provide low and no cost spay and neuter.  This year one of
    our clubs has given $3,000 so far to a spay neuter clinic.  Our other
    club just had their show this past weekend, so their donations will
    take place next month.  Cat clubs have supported humane groups for
    years.  It seems to me that it should be possible for the two groups to
    work together to find a solution to the unwanted pet problem in the
    U.S.  
    
    
    Jo

    Jo,
    
    Point on ferals heard and understood. :-) I think that being an optimist
    and a softie, I, and I think others, hold a belief that with enough
    time, love and attention, any animal can be tamed (referring to
    cats/dogs) - and I think as a rule that's true - and I think you do
    too.  But realistically, and in the kind of situation you're talking
    about - colonies of ferals - there simply is not enough manpower and
    hours and time and money for the task.  But no animal deserves to be
    euthanized simply because it exists.  Is the program TTVAR at all
    widespread? And what would it take for it to grow?  What about
    legislation involving that?
    
    As far as the ban, I think you're absolutely correct about breeders being
    the only people they can attempt to monitor - and again, it's
    voluntary, so even if it were sensible - you'd still find only the
    responsible breeders complying and they aren't part of the problem to
    begin with.  I still say the vast part of the problem lies with the
    general population.  Is there any possibility of negative impact to
    shelters/humane organizations if legislation is passed requiring
    spay/neuter before adoption?  The reason I ask is because it seems like
    such an obviously right solution - the only reason I can think of it
    not being implemented is because of lack of funding or a negative
    financial impact to shelters.  I don't know a lot about this, so this
    is very educational for me.  Are most shelters funded privately or
    what?  What would you estimate the cost to shelters to be - up front -
    of spaying and neutering before adopting out? - obviously over time it 
    would be beneficial and pay for its self.  What can *I* do in my area
    to increase awareness and push for some of these things?
    
    Rebecca
           

    The shelter in our county doesn't want to spay/neuter before adopting
    because they see one of two things happening A) they don't want to waste 
    money altering a cat that may not get adopted - so they can't just
    alter every cat that comes in.  B) if they ask the adopters to wait until
    the cat is altered, they fear they will miss out on adoptions because
    no one will want to wait.
    
    Currently, our county shelter has it's own spay/neuter clinic, where
    folks can bring their adopted animals in for altering.  The adopters
    pay a fee for altering when they adopt, and are supposed to get a
    refund when they provide proof of spaying.  The alter deposits
    from adopters go into a fund, and the refunds are paid from there.  The
    alter deposit fund is currently sitting at $49,000!!!  What does that
    tell us?  I think it screams that folks aren't getting those pets
    spayed and neutered.  There is a certain percentage that will get the
    altering done, but just never claim the refund.  That is a small
    percentage of the total dollars in the fund.
    
    Our county shelter has the county's Animal Control contract, and they
    used to get over $1 million a year from the state to provide services. 
    Not sure what they will get now with the current budget crisis in our
    state.  Our county shelter would like to be independent of the local
    government, and not have the county's animal control contract.  They
    have been asking the county to build their own animal control facility
    for years.  The county board of sups keeps tabling that project.  Lack
    of funds.  We have suggested that they use the $49,000 in unclaimed
    refunds to fund the new facility, but they can't, because it is a state
    law that the only thing that that money can go for is spay/neuter
    refunds or education.  Speaking of education, every time someone
    suggests an educational project that could be funded by the alter
    deposit's, the county balks.  So, the money is just sitting there
    collecting dust.
    
    So, to answer your questions about funding, Rebecca, the funding is in
    place (the adopters pay a fee when they adopt, and of course, there is
    that $49,000), the shelter has facilities for spaying/neutering already 
    on the premises.  So, why don't they spay/neuter before sending an 
    animal home?  I don't know.
    
    On the topic of TTVAR, what it mostly needs are donations of money, and
    volunteers to help trap and transport the cats.  For more information
    about TTVAR, you can contact the National Pet Alliance.  As far as I
    know, the program is not that widespread because of lack of help in
    funding and volunteers.  One of my cat clubs has supported this program
    since it's inception, and we plan to continue doing so.
    
    Jo
    
    

    At our shelter we are funded only be donations, adoptions fees
     and fundraising...we get no special assistance from local governments.
    
    Each animal that is brought to the shelter is tested for Feluk/FIV,
    neutered/spayed, checked/treated for worms and/or mites, vaccinated
    (rabies and booster), and given a physical.   The average amount
    spent on vet bills for each cat is approximately $75.00 with some
    bills being a bit higher.    
    
    Our shelter feels very strongly on ensuring the health of the kitty
    is fine as well as neuter/spaying each cat that is old enough before
    it is even brought to the shelter.  I'm also interested in learning
    alot more on the early neuter/spay program...because I feel this
    will also be part of the overall solution.
    
    Sandy
    
    
    

    
    Imagine what would happen if all breeders made a pact to
    *stop* breeding for 2 years.....

    You would probably have queens dropping like flies.  If an animal is
    kept whole and not allowed to breed it can develop things like
    pyometra and worse. I have literature available if anyone is
    interested. Why don't we ask all pet owners to "stop" breeding for 2
    years?  How many more pet owners do you think there are than actual
    breeders?  How many actual purebred, not "apparent" purebred cats are
    there in the shelters as opposed to domestics.  Take a look at the
    actual sheer numbers of these animals and tell me it is the fault of
    the breeder.
    I don't mean to preach, not knowing the tone in which you wrote this
    note.
    
    I can imagine also if breeders were to *stop* for two years so would
    shows, and income earned and donated to things like the Winn
    Foundation from these shows.  How would the Pat Brody SHelter, Baypath
    Humane Society among several be able to find good homes for the kitties
    they bring to the show?  What about crafts tables that create a good
    income for these shelters.  How about information delivered via vets,
    and other informative groups get dispensed on the spaying and neutering
    of animals.  
    
    Add to this the "bad" breeders that sell to pet stores for astronomical
    amounts.  This would leave the purebred buyer to these stores for their
    purchase of such an animal.  God help us, if this is the only place to
    get a purebred animal.  BECAUSE, YOU DON'T HONESTLY THINK KITTEN MILLS
    AND PUPPY MILLS WILL STOP, DO YOU?  It would only be the honest, do the
    right thing people that would try.
    
    Why don't we start a note "What is a breeder"?  Then perhaps we can
    clear up a few misconceptions.
    
    Ask yourself this, would you want to buy an animal from a pet store or
    a home you can visit and actually see the conditions and get to know
    the temperament of the animal, see what the littermates are like etc. 
    
    Karen

    Right on, Karen.  
    
    I'm not a breeder, but I own 3 purebreds that I bought from "very 
    responsible" breeders that I trust.  The *responsible* breeders aren't the 
    problem with over population of cats, it's the people who adopt a moggie 
    and don't neuter it and/or keep it indoors so it can't breed.  It
    bothers me to see the breeders getting the bum rap when they aren't
    the cause of the problem. 
    
    Steffi

    Personally I don't believe the overpopulation problem is 
    caused by  responsible breeders; therefore I do not believe 
    stopping responsible  breeders for 2 years will resolve the problem. 
    You know this program will not stop the backyard breeders, pet stores,
    or irresponsible breeders!
    
    The real problem lies with those everyday people who want to experience
    the miracle of birth or even those breeders who "deem" to be 
    responsible...but are not.  From going to so many cat shows...I do 
    know very well known breeders...who are not responsible breeders. (my
    opinion)  Not all irresponsible breeders sell only to pet stores. ....you 
    can also find them in the show all!!  I just love when they tell me...
    "Want this cat...I have to get rid of it because I have 3 more litters
    coming and 30 cats at home!"  We had one breeder who was highly
    insulted because the shelter would not adopt out a golden tabby
    to her.  She had 29 cats at home...and only wanted this cat so she
    could show it....and we felt it wasn't the best for the cat!  
    
    To me a responsible breeders ensures the health of the breeding cats,
    only sells to responsible pet owners, follows up with adopted parents
    to ensures kittens are neutered/spayed, keeps a clean healthy cattery,
    and contains the number of litters to a minimum each year.  I don't
    think these guys should be penalized because the REAL issue is not
    going to be solved.
    
    So what can we do:  Education, more spay/neuter clinics, get involved
    in local pet programs, get shelters and rescue leagues to spay/neuter 
    each pet that is adopted, somehow get the SPCA's more involved in
    monitoring shelters and breeding program and start to penalize those
    that are not responsible.    
    
    Just my opinion....
    
    Sandy
       
    
    

    Hi Sandi!
    Thanks for putting in your thoughts.  CFA has a rule (either new or
    trying to be passed, I forget) which states that if a breeder registers
    a certain number of kittens in a given year, that they must be seen by
    a veterinarian and certified.  At least they are trying to police their
    own.
    
    Aside from the cat thing, it's the greyhounds that I truly feel bad
    for.  I wish I could have one.  
    Karen

    
    Where I'm coming from......I think if the (responsible?) breeders
    take a stand, and create a big enough stink about the over-population
    problem, that it WILL make a difference.
    
    No, the "responsible" breeder is not the problem.  But what denotes
    a "responsible" breeder?  I feel that there are very few breeders that
    fit into this category anymore......"Every" breeder thinks they are 
    responsible.....  
    
    And I'm not limiting breeders to those who show/breed only.  
    A kitten mill breeder is a breeder, too.  So is a backyard breeder.  
    A mill breeder is distasteful to those of us who
    know what goes on, but most are licensed to breed, and for some reason
    are very well protected by the State they are in.  Do you know that
    a law was passed to prohibit filming of puppy & kitten mills in Kansas?
    Why are they so protected?  My musings on this is that it is a revenue
    generating business for the State and of course, for the individual.
    
    You would be surprised at the stuff you hear breeders say at cat shows.  
    Things about not feeding their cat(s) because it might make a bulgy 
    stomach, and the judge won't like that....putting a mother cat on a 
    starvation diet so she will slim down in time for the show....and one 
    that I thought was the icing on the cake...."I breed so I can sell the 
    kittens to make money".....
    
    Now, I know what it's like to show, as I show my horse.  I would
    win a lot more ribbons if I resorted to a few not so nice tricks.
    I could cut his feed the week before so he has less energy, or other
    tricks not quite as nice.  No way......He is what he is, and if the
    judge doesn't like what s/he sees, then there is always the next
    show...
    
    If the breeders rallied together and made a commitment to stop
    breeding, I think it would be a start....
    
    Sorry, I have to log off, but this isn't everything I wanted to say...
    
    Lynne
    
    If all the breeders across the U.S.  

    If I stopped breeding for two years, I would have to begin my breeding
    program from scratch when the two years were up.  It is not a simple
    matter of just not having any litters for two years.  I have 7 years of
    hard work invested in my lines, and I am not about to give that up just
    so the HSUS can discover that two years of voluntary breeding bans made
    absolutely no difference in the number of unwanted pets in the US.
    
    I don't need someone else to tell me if I am a responsible breeder or
    not.  I know that I am.  I have to live with myself you know.  I limit
    the number of litters that I produce (how often do you see me
    advertising kittens for sale in this file?), I sell my kittens with
    spay/neuter contracts, and follow up on those contracts.  Very soon I
    will be spaying and neutering all pets before placing them.  And, most
    importantly, I plan my breedings carefully, and use only the very best
    cats for breeding.
    
    If I quit breeding for two years, most of my females would be too old
    to use for breeding when the ban was over.  I would have to start over
    with new girls.  I don't want to do that.  Not when I am getting the
    quality of kittens that I have been getting lately.  I have worked long
    and hard to get where I am in my breeding program.  I have already had
    to start over once, (after I lost Kalliste) and I do not wish to have
    to start over again because of a well intentioned, but ill conceived
    idea.
    
    Jo

    My heart breaks for the numbers of unwanted pets that end up in
    shelters ..or worse.  But the breeding ban would not solve that
    problem.  I guess I'd have to admit that the term 'responsible'
    breeder could have alot of different interpretations.  Many things go
    into my concept of what 'responsible' means. ..but more than anything
    else ..my feeling is that a responsible breeder assumes
    'responsibility' for any kitten born in their cattery.  That means that
    a 'responsible' breeder will *insist* that any kitten that cannot be
    kept by a buyer is either returned to the breeder or the breeder will
    have a say in where that kitten is placed.  Under ordinary
    circumstances the situation would never arise where a kitten from a
    responsible breeding program would end up in a shelter or on the street.
    
    The sad fact is that most proposed breeding bans completely exempt pet
    shops from all restrictions.  Because it is a many $$$$ producing
    industry, puppies and kittens can continue to be mass-produced in the 
    'mills' and shipped in as many and as often as they want.  Most of the
    animals are far from meeting any breed standard and health problems are
    common.  
    
    There is nothing stopping anyone from buying two animals from a pet
    shop and using them for breeding ..usually by people who don't know the
    first thing about health screening and sales contracts. It is certainly
    not the animals' fault ..and the people involved are often well-intended
    ...but uninformed. It is not unusual for a pet shop kitten or puppy to
    be discarded ..or to produce offspring that will evenually be discarded.
    Trying to do something to limit/prevent this could count.
    
    The responsible 'hobby' breeder will produce a limited number of
    kittens by breeding the best to the best after carefully researching the
    pedigrees for health issues.  Every attempt will be made to be sure
    each kitten is placed in the best possible home. Every effort is made
    through contract requirements and follow-up to be sure that each kitten
    is spayed or neutered, will never end up in a pet shop, ..and will be
    returned to the breeder or the breeder will have some say in where the
    kitten would be placed if that became necessary.  Punishing the hobby
    breeder by passing rules that restrict what they are already policing
    themeselves in doing would be useless.
    
    $$$ or not, if I had my way no pet shop would be allowed to sell
    puppies or kittens.  They would sell supplies, food and equipment only.
    
    Then there are all the unwanted moggies...  There is no way a breeding
    ban will even touch that problem.  A roaming tom or a stray queen in
    heat are not going to read the laws prohibiting producing kittens. And
    in this time of economic difficulty there are many, many people who
    take in a cat or kitten but can't afford to spay and neuter.  There are
    bound to be unwanted kittens produced ..and if a ban exists that will
    penalize them for producing those kittens many will just be dropped off
    or abandoned... Many more than would have without the ban!
    
    If the purpose is to really solve the problem, I believe the answers are
    going to have to be found in education and in low-cost neuter and spay
    programs.  I don't have any magic answers of how to finance these, but
    that is what needs to be addressed.  If all the money that was spent on
    euthanizing animals and attempts to pass useless breeding bans ...were
    instead spent on education and sponsoring neuter/spay clinics it
    would be much more effective.
    
    Certainly my point is not the benefits of purebred vs moggie. They are
    all beautiful animals and deserve a loving home. By controlling pet
    shops, educating the public and providing inexpensive neuter/spay we
    could go a long way toward insuring that every kitten born, purebred or
    not, would be wanted and loved.
    
    Linda