Conference misery::feline

    Andrea...where are you????   I'm sure Andrea can be of great
    help because she has lived with cats and rabbits for many
    years!!!
    
    Congrats on your other furry friends!!!
    
    Sandy M
    

    >In the absence of a RABBITS notesfile, I've come here seeking advice.
    
    QUARK::SMALL_ANIMALS is a conference about rabbit (among other small
    animals). But feel free to talk about cat-rabbit coexistance here.
    
    Deb

    We have both, and so does a neighbor.  As long as the rabbits are fully
    grown we haven't had a problem.  In the case of one minilop he was
    aggressive towards the cats and the chow.  I would recommend against
    dwarf varieties and also remember a few things about rabbits. 
    
    1.  They are prey animals.  If severely frightened or even lightly
    injured they may shutdown.  
    
    2.  Do not leave prey and preying animals unsupervised, just in case. 
    My cats have always pretty much ignored or avoided adult rabbits. 
    However, when one rabbit kindled under the deck the cats had most of
    the babies within two days.  
    
    3.  enjoy the bunnies they are a lot of fun.  
    
    meg

    re .3
    
    >> I would recommend against dwarf varieties
    
    Oh dear, that's what we have :-(, still, never mind. Thanks for the
    hints.We haven't let them out yet, whilst the cats are around.
    My daughter had to name them - one's called Lucy - the other one:-
    *Flopper* ;-)
    
    Off now to read SMALL_ANIMALS 
    
    Simon
    

         I have had rabbits and cats together for several years now, and
    although none are dwarfs (they are all 5 pounds and up), a dwarf
    shouldn't be a problem unless the cats are indoor/outdoor or used to
    catching prey.
    
         My rabbits are caged during the day until we are home; that is
    only because I have too much stuff and am too lazy to "bunny-proof" ;^)
    .  Free-ranging bunnies are preferred, if possible, but be aware that
    they chew (electrical cords!, paper, wood, doorframes, practically
    anything ;^) ), and can mark territory unless they are spayed/neutered. 
    They can be litter-box trained - all my bunnies are litter-box trained
    (and they use *their* litterbox, not the cats').
    
         I have found that the cats actually run away from the bunnies -
    this is because the buns run right up to the cats ("mom, why isn't this
    thing afraid and cautious around me, the predator?") and they hop
    ("mom, this thing walks funny - and fast!").  Although they are prey
    animals, domesticated bunnies seem to have almost no fear unless
    they've been abused, they nose right into things without the least bit
    of caution.  This throws off the cats, who think that the buns should
    be scared of them but, in reality, are afraid of the buns ;^) !
    
         My cats are indoor only and have never hunted.  They are used to
    our "zoo" and know that they are not allowed to hurt anything else.  We
    are able to leave the cats alone with the bunnies and even the crow,
    and no one touches anyone 8-) .  But ... I would recommend watching
    *all* interactions between your kitties and your buns until you *know*
    that they will get along.  It all depends on the cat - some cats can be
    trusted, others just have too much of that hunting instinct.  Each is
    an individual.
    
         As far as bunny care, there are a few things to watch out for. 
    You may already know this stuff, but I figured I'd put it in here for
    those who are not as intimately familiar with bunnies as me ;^) :
    
         o Keep an eye on their teeth; lops and some dwarfs get a condition
           called malocclusion, where the teeth don't meet.  Since the
           teeth grow continuously for the life of the bunny, this can 
           result in walrus teeth.  If you start seeing extra-long or out-
           of line teeth, bring bunny to the vet so that s/he can show you
           how to clip the teeth.  This is really not as hard as it sounds.
         o Watch for output.  The bunny gut goes one way, they *cannot*
           vomit.  So if they get a hairball, they can block and die. 
           Hairballs and gut statis (when the gut shuts down) are
           treatable, although of course the sooner you catch it the
           better.  If the poops get smaller or less in volume, run to your
           vet.
         o Diarrhea.  An immediate go-to-the-vet problem.
    
         And some interesting facts:
    
         o Bunnies eat their food in two stages.  First stage is to eat the
           food, which goes through their system and into the cecum.  Cecal
           pellets are produced, which look like bunches of grapes, are
           moist and encased in a light mucous shell.  If the "grapes" are
           broken, they are very ... odiferous ;^) .  Bunny eats these
           cecal pellets, which are full of vitamins.  In stage two these
           cecals are digested, the vitamins extracted and the remains 
           are formed into fecal pellets, those round, hard droppings. 
           It's okay to see a few cecal pellets around, but there shouldn't
           be bunches of them, or it means bunny isn't eating them and may
           be sick.
         o Bunnies can be as territorial as cats, if not more.  And they
           will mount anything ... including the cats ;^) !  Spay and
           neuter to prevent this problem, as well as to prevent ovarian
           and testicular cancer.
         o Bunnies can purr, it's called tooth-purring.  It's actually a
           gentle grinding of the teeth, done when bunny is very happy (of
           course!).
    
         Whew!  Sorry to have gone on for so long!  The long and the short
    of it is ... bunnies and cats make great companions!
    
    					- Andrea
    
============================================================================
Andrea Midtmoen Fease		Kitties: Loki & Midnight
Digital Equipment Corporation	RB Kitties: Bigfoot, Fluffy & Tigger
fease@tape.enet.dec.com		Bunnies: Gizmo, Mama & Molly
				RB Bunnies: Buddy, BunBun, Sheba & Snow
* All opinions expressed are * 	Birds: BJ, Fuzzy & Shadow
*   my own, not Digital's.   *	Others: Chickens, ducks & fish

    Andrea pretty much said it all! My sister has cats and dogs and
    bunnies. All house beasts. They get along great. That has never been
    a problem. She has actually had more problems with the mounting,
    marking, poops all over, and even aggressiveness. I thought bunnies
    were sweet balls of fluff, but they sure can be bad!  I was really
    surprised when she first told me all the naughty stuff they were doing.
    They do fearlessly approach the other animals and even attack. But 
    generally, they do get along just fine. Maybe where all the animals
    involved have no hunting interest, it makes things easier. But I
    wouldn't be too worried about everyone getting along. It seems the
    above issues and health related things like Andrea mentioned are the
    important things to consider.

    Andrea, I have had pretty good luck with discouraging wire chewing
    (by cats) by putting Tabasco sauce on the wires.  It dries clear and
    non-sticky.  Not very nice, but preferable to the alternative.  I'm not
    sure if the cats actually came in contact with it or if the smell
    (which I don't smell) warned them away.
    

    well, since noone else asked, I will. What do they look like? I've
    always loved the jet black bunnies, but the calico ones are cute, too.
    
    Deb

    >>  What do they look like?
    
    One is light brown, with dark ears, the other is white with black bits.
    Liked the bit about tabasco sauce, the *one time* we let the bunny
    loose in the house, he went straight for the light cables - weird huh?
    Bunny with a death wish - y'see we have 220v over here #:-)
    
    Simon

         Amazingly enough, I've seen lots of stories of bunnies chomping
    through wires and *not* getting bit, though how I haven't a clue.  It
    could be because they don't have much saliva, so maybe the current
    doesn't flow through?  Certainly not something I would want to try.
    
         People have tried tabasco (some bunnies love it!) and bitter apple
    (yummy!).  I think most have had luck with that plastic wire-wrapping
    stuff you can get at Radio Shack.  It's flexible plastic tube-like
    stuff that you can slit and put the wires within.  The theory is that
    plain wires look like twigs which must be bitten to be gotten out of
    the way (like vines ;^) ), while this thicker stuff looks more like
    branches that are less attractive.  Haven't tried it.
    
         As long as we're talking bunnies ;^) , I currently have three:
    o Mama - almost 8 now (wow!), all black, female, too old to spay.
    o Molly - 3, Harlequin (grey with patches of black and white), need to
              spay when we get more $$$$ (Loki's CRF is eating up the
              budget!)
    o Gizmo - 2, neutered male, lop with controllable ears (he can put them
              both up, both down, one up and one down, or airplane
              (parallel to the floor), white with brown spots.
    
    Mama is the quiet one, Molly is a little more bouncy, but Gizzy is the
    most rambunctious one, and boy can he binky (jump while turning around,
    i.e. he's facing you, he binkies, and lands with the tail facing you)!
    
    					- Andrea

> Does anyone else out there keep rabbits *and* cats, when the rabbit
>    isn't in his/her cage, can they co-exist with the cats, or is there
>    likely to be an outbreak of sudden war?

Yers. 

I have a large old english spot rabbit (as big as the kitties) 
and a butterfly (about half cat sized) 
who stand up for themselves ok
and used to have a little black lop earred dwarf ()itsy tiny thing) who 
would get picked on when he was out of his cage. 

They live indoors with 3 cats.  One 8 year old tortie n white longhair
who smacks them to get them to leave her alone, one 1 year old tortie
shorthair nutter who chases them and then runs away when they go to 
sniff her and one 1 and a bit silver tabby and white maine coon who
lies there looking bemused whilst the female rabbit mounts her and tries 
for x-species lesbian rape and seems to quite like Boy, the only male in 
the house. 


With the two chaps I have now they pick on the cats more than the cats do 
on them, it's all very friendly and they all seem to find each other a
nice exciting stimulation as well, which I'm sure is good for them. 

I think Jarvis, my little all black dwarf lop chappie who never grew bigger
than my hand was probably intimidated though.   He got a smack on the forehead
from a cat when he first came out before I could protect him and was 
wary of them from then onwards.   He died at about 8 months old, still tiny,
unexpectedly - I went out for a couple of hours one evening - he was fine when I 
went out and stone cold dead when I came back - we think he had a heart attack 
through shock.   Who knows but I wouldn't have a dwarf again with the cats, 
they're very sweet and lovely lap bunnies but to intimitable. 

>" mom, why isn't this
    thing afraid and cautious around me, the predator?"

Batsy bunny did just this in the back garden!!
She ran through next doors lawn straigth at Johnny, 
the local ginger tom (he's gorgeous - part burmese 
or whichever the chaps with the very even downy coats are) 

Johnny shot back a few steps nearly falling over, 
up until then he'd been stalking Bats, but she's 
bigger than him and was completely oblivious :-) 

For the bunnies safety, even when they sunbathe 
out the front (you'd have to see the garden to fully appreciate
that) most of my worries are for either them eating
a toxic plant in the garden or of the west highland 
terriers 3 houses along gettign out and getting at them. 

>I would recommend watching
>    *all* interactions between your kitties and your buns until you *know*
>    that they will get along. 

Then watch when they *think* you've gone too... 
I caught Lucy smacking Batsy around this way, oddly 
enough she did it just as I had the camera out so I've a 
photo of a cat and a rabbit - one with a fast moving blurred paw, 
the other with a fast moving blurred head bouncing chin first off 
the sofa - poor duckie. 

>o Bunnies can purr,

I know it's not the bunnies conference but whilst we're at it... 

Batsy chatters and sort of squeakily chunters a lot, 
she does it when I tickle her sides (she doesn't try to defend 
herself she knows it's playful grooming) or stroke her and 
she's in the mood to stay still. It sounds like a cross between 
cats chirrups, and maybe a guinea pig, it sounds a really contented
noise though like she's singing to herself almost. 

Is this common? 
I noticed she made a similar noise when Boy mounted her (forehead
and shoulder - well he was young and confused) and suddenly wondered 
if I've been turning on my female bunny on a regular basis :-)

> Andrea, I have had pretty good luck with discouraging wire chewing
>    (by cats) by putting Tabasco sauce on the wires. 

A house bunny we had at college used to have a favorite nibble, 
cotton gussets from lacy knickers (even, if not preferably worn) 
didn't half make you keep your room tidy, but I really wouldn't've 
liked to try that deterent on that one!


>e, he went straight for the light cables - weird huh?

Oh I dunno, I've only just boarded off and Batsy's still growing 
out her last singeing from her favorite spot, inside the boiler 
casing.   Fine until the thermostat clicks whilst she's in there 
and it goes woof, lights up and out runs a singed bummed rabbit!



re binky: I've been looking for a word for that mid-air directional change
(often mid run up the lounge) for ages.  Thanks . 

Jo

    
    I don't have rabbits (though one of my sisters does; she keeps them for
    their fur, which she spins and weaves).  But I do have a copy of "The
    Private Life of the Rabbit", which I recommend to anyone interested in
    these wonderful animals.  It will disabuse you of a lot of "easter bunny"
    sentimentalism.  It provided the author of "Watership Down" with a lot of
    factual information about rabbits that was used in writing the book.   
    
    len.
    

    Hi all,
    
    cats and rabbits - never again! I had a rabbit (5 years old), and then I
    got a little kitten (5 weeks young). The first few weeks were not the
    problem; they had no interest for each other. But when my cat grew up
    (about 3 months), he started hounting the rabbit whenever he could. The
    rabbit got really freightened whenever he saw the cat, tried to ran
    away, the cat followed him, jumping on him, scratching, biteing,....
    more or less, the cat caused the problem, not the rabbit!
    
    I tried to solve the problem by the following: put the cat in a
    seperate room while the rabbit was out of his cage - for about one
    hour/day - poor rabbit. Not a quite good solution, because Geronimo (my
    cat) knew that the rabbit was out and started scratching on the
    door.... anyway, I love him.
    
    Luckily, my mother was so kind to adopt the rabbit - and I got a
    second little cat in the meantime.