Conference misery::feline

    I think of you and send you good wishes. Who knows, miracles might
    happen.
    
    Nat

    I'm so sorry. 
    
    Deb

    My furry babies and I will say a prayer for Marvin tonight.  
    My heart goes out to you during a time that surly must be 
    the hardest part of loving cats. 

    Stinky and all the other kitties send you warm kitty hugs.
    Karen

    This is the hardest part of being owned by a kitty.  But Marvin will
    understand that it is because you love him.  Tigger and I send our
    condolences and will say a little prayer for both of you you.
    
    Marilyn

I wrote to Arlene off-line asking what happened with Marvin (whether or not I
should add him to the SLM listing) and got the attached, unexpected GOOD news
back !!!!!!!   I've posted the note from Arlene at her request.........

	========================================================

Deb,

Thanks for writing back.  I wanted to update the Notes file with
the latest "GOOD NEWS".  After I put the note in, I thought.  Well,
ONE more thing I can try is simply give Marvin WHATEVER he wants to
eat, low protein that is.  Soooo, I went to the store at lunch time
and bought some Kalcan Optimal with 8% protein.  Ash content was
3% and that is not too bad.

Anyway, Marvin loved it!!  He ate the whole can in one day!  I took
him to the vet for more blood tests.  The results came back yesterday.
His BUN had dropped to 30, it was 65.  His Creatinin (however you spell
it) went from a high of 5.9 to 2.9.  There was a little enzyme issue
with regards to his liver.  The vet said that this could be due to the
lack of eating and weight loss.  She feels that if he continues to eat
he should be ok.  We will just have to ween him off of the Kalcan when
he puts on some weight.

He is taking new heart medication also.  This should improve his appetite.
The vet said that he will not live out his full life span but he could
survive once we get everything under control.

Again, if you could let me know what that note # is I will update the
file.

Thanks,
Arlene

    Thats GREAT news!  Thanks for letting us know.
    
    
    dlh

    Hey, Marvin tossed his breakfast this morning.  So, could
    the food be too rich?  This happened about 45min after I
    gave him his heart pill.  Do you think that the medication
    made it to his bloodstream?   I also gave him his potassium
    supplement, after he lost his breakfast.  He then went BACK
    to his plate and ate again.  Any suggestions as to what else
    I could do to get this guy to eat and keep the stuff down?
    
    I am also concerned that the Kalcan reads "crude protein 8%
    MIN"  Does this mean that it could be more than 8%.  I didn't
    sleep too well last night worrying that I might be hurting
    the good results.  Although, he has GOT to eat to survive.
    
    Well, thats it for now.
    
    See you  
    Arlene

     Arlene,

     It could just be that, now that he's found something he *wants* to eat,
     he's wolfing it down too fast - you might want to try putting out 
     smaller amounts in stages - also, ask your vet about the meds he's on
     and whether they should be given before/with/after eating - I know with
     some of the stuff *I* take, if I take it on an empty stomach, I'll feel
     like barfing myself !

     Hang in there !
     Debbi 

    Arlene...don't panic yet.   I do agree with Deb that it could be
    he is wolfing it down...or his heart medicine might need to be 
    taken at a certain time.   I would monitor him closely and if he
    does throw up again...just talk to your vet and give him smaller
    portions at a time.
    
    Great news so far...glad to see he ate the Kal_can!!!!
    
    Sandy

    I just heard something else.  I have been doing the herbal thing
    on Marvin as well.  He gets Coenzyme Q10 for his heart with the
    potassium.  THen I put the Dandilion green for the kidneys and the
    Milk Thistle Seed for the Liver, into his food.  I have a suspicion
    that the Dandilion stuff may make him sick.  One of the folks in 
    the office says that when she takes her herbal stuff she cramps up
    and gets sick.  It may be a coincidence but the past two Dandilion
    intakes have caused him to vomit.  Maybe I will cutback there.  I
    got this herbal idea from Cindy Fisher.
    
    I will keep on trying.
    
    See you,
    Arlene
    

    Arlene...that sounds logicial.  It could be the combination of
    heart medicine, herbal stuff, potassium etc that you are giving 
    him that could be upseting his stomach.  I'd try cutting back on
    the herbal stuff for awhile.
    
    Sandy
    

I'd be leery any time you start mixing medications.  Does the 
vet know you're giving herbal remedies?  You don't know if
any of them are reacting with the veterinarian-prescribed meds.

As with humans, be careful mixing meds!

    Arlene,
    
    When my Chris wolfs down his food I can prevent it coming right 
    up again by burping him like a baby.  When the wind comes up
    he's as right as rain again.
    
    So glad Marvin is getting better.

    Marvin was not interested in eating ANYTHING today.  I even
    tried to get him to eat the Kalcan right from the can.  He licked
    the gravey off of the top and walked away.  I can't help but
    remember when I first brought him back from the hospital in
    December he was eating the KD.  Ever since the treatment for
    the heart he has lost his appetite.  I am concerned that his
    liver is showing signs of a potential problem.  This is again
    due to his not eating.  I am getting sooooo frustrated.  I almost
    lost my temper this morning.  I have to sit there and coax him
    at 4:00am in the morning.  I have to make sure that the other
    cats do not eat his food.  I wonder if this is all worth it.
    If it is stressing me out like this what is it doing to poor
    Marvin?
    
    Oh well, another day.
    
    I did ask the vet about the herbal stuff.  She did not see a problem
    with it.
    
    Lets see what happens this weekend.  He is soooo skinney.  He went from
    an all time high of 22 lbs to a grotesque 10.6 lbs.  No wonder his
    liver is having a problem.
    
    Take care and thanks for your encouragement.
    
    Arlene
    
    

    Arlene...just a hug your way!  Just follow your heart because
    you are doing everything possible for Marvin and he knows you
    are trying so hard.  Try some babyfood with Marvin to see if
    you can stimulate his appetite.
    
    Big hug..
    
    Sandy

    Baby food??  Seriously?? What kind would you suggest?
    Did Ziggy eat that?  I will pick some up today.  Let
    me know which flavors you suggest.
    
    thanks much!
    
    Arlen
    

    Are there liquid diet supplements for cats, similar to what 
    there are for humans?   ....like Ensure
    
    May be worth asking about...  

    Arlene...get any of the meat flavored babyfood.  Chicken and
    Turkey are on my most wanted list at home!!!!  I always keep
    baby food at home because if a cat is not feeling well and
    stops eating you can normally entice him with baby food!!  I
    beleive there is only 8-9% protein in it too.....  If that
    don't work..try sliced chicken!!!
    
    Liquid diet supplements are a good idea too.  I believe I had
    Ziggy on Pet Tinic when he was at his worse.   You might want
    to discuss this with the vet first...because he is getting
    medicine and herbal stuff already.
    
    Good luck...hugs to Marvin!!
                                     

    ALso, I found that I could put a bit of nutraget (a high calorie food
    supplement you get fromthe vet) into the babyfood and it helped put
    a little weight on my Eirene.
    
    If you are having a hard time getting the cat to eat the baby food,
    worst case is to get an oral syringe and basicly feed her by hand.
    
    Deb

Arlene,

Two things:

1.  Have you had Marvin's teeth checked.  Sophie started starving herself a 
few weeks ago and we almost decided to postpone her dental until she got 
stronger.  Well, she wouldn't have gotten stronger since her rotten tooth was 
causing her so much grief she didn't feel like eating.  Once she recovered 
from the surgery, her old eating habits have returned and she's gained weight
again.  Just don't overlook the simple things (like what would make you not 
feel like eating).

2.  If all else fails, feed Marvin the stuff that's bad for him.  Sometimes 
animals know better than we do.  Tatoo was starving herself on Science Diet 
when we got her; commercial is all she'll eat.  All I know for sure is that
our kitties have to eat to stay alive and a battle of wills over food is 
about as effective with a kitty as it is with a kiddy.

>    As I told Sandi, Marvin simply will not eat anymore.  He will
>    only eat if I entice him with high sodium canned gravey which
>    will destroy his heart.  

Believe me, I KNOW how hard this is.  Good luck.

Susan S.

    My Smokey likes baby food, which she gets regularly. I cannot suggest
    any flavors, though, then I have got no idea what you have over
    there... my furface likes pumkin puree with beef the most.
    
    The other thing, might be, that Marvin knows really better. And,
    perhaps, his body does not like the too much treatment. Try to restrict
    the medication to the vet recommended minimum.
    
    Big hugs.
    
    Nat

    Well, MARVIN IS EATING!! I went to the vet last Friday and was 
    strongly advised NOT to give him the store bought stuff.  Sooo,
    I bought the Iams food.  He loves it!!  Tammy and Tigress
    love it as well.  On Monday of this week I was a little concerned
    with his attempts to take a pee and have no luck.  I brought him
    to the vet at lunchtime.  She gave him a quick fluid push and an
    antibiotic for Cystitis, which he has a history for.  She told
    me, however, that kitties with Renal failure seldom get Cystitis
    due to the urine being less acidic.  Anyway, when I brought Marvin
    home from the vet he headed straight for his food dish.  He ate
    again that nite and was the first to be at the dish the next morning!
    Was it the fluid push?  The antibiotic?  Who knows.  All I know is
    that he is eating like a piggy!!!  I am on a  high right now!  
    
    Also, the vet checked his heart.  It took the longest time.  She
    looked at me in amazement and said "his heart murmer is gone.  It
    was so loud and now it is gone".  I thought, well, he is on medication.
    But why is she surprised?  Maybe it does not usually go away like
    that.  Then I thought, I have been giving him this Coenzyme Q2 natural
    stuff with his food every morning.  It is supposed to be great for the
    heart.  Maybe it worked!!
    
    Bottom line.  Marvin is doing better.  If I have to start doing the
    fluid pushes once a week, so be it.  I just want him to LIVE.
    
    I will keep you posted.  For now, he is doing great!
    
    Take care,
    Arlene

    Great news Arlene....it wouldn't hurt if you learned how to
    give fluids yourself and that way you wouldn't have to run
    to the vet everytime he needs it!!!!
    
    Believe me...I HATE needles, but have no problem giving Ziggy
    fluids when he needs it!!!
    
    Great Great news to hear he is eating again!!!
    
    Sandy

    I also found that I could give fluids less frequently if I gave Eirene
    Pedilyte. The salt/potassium helped her to stay hydrated longer.
    
    Deb

    Yes, fluids aren't so bad to give, and there's a BIG savings if you
    don't have to run to the vets all the time.  Some people I know will
    give a supplement of taurine to their cats if they have a heart
    problem.  It wasn't too long ago that they discovered the connection
    between the need for taurine and heart failure.  One person I know of
    said it turned the cat around and saved its life.
    Karen

    Glad to hear that Marvin is doing good...
    
    *joyce,shilo,and oliver
    

    re. .23
    Okay, okay, I go on praying... great news.
    re. .25+
    Careful with any meds (Pedialyte) others had success with - it's not
    sure that another case is as successful. Never do anything without
    consulting your vet. If sg is goin' well, don't touch it...
    
    Sorry being so cavilly (sp?) I am just so concerned about Marvin and
    sent him (and send him) so many good vibs down the way. I feel somehow
    responsible for Marvin. Forgive?
    
    Nat

    I've only just read this note and replies and although Marvin is eating
    well now (touch wood) I thought I'd tell you what we feed our cat when
    he doesn't want to eat.  He's skinny as anything, is 17 in Spring and
    weighs about 7lb, he was actually an extraordinary large male SH in his
    prime but that's ahrd to explain to people when they see him now. 
    Anyway, when he had gingivitis (sp) we coaxed him with baby food,
    porridge with chicken essence, any meat flavoured soup and finely diced
    chicken and fish (usually coley).  As he is on a strict diet now, he's
    not allowed any red meat/oily fish/dairy produce so that rules out
    loads of food.  He lives on Sainsbury's chicken and turkey cat food
    which he loves (and it's the cheapest), when he's not in an eating
    mood, mum microwaves an individual coley portion and puts it in front
    of the fire where he'll definately eat it.
    
    Sorry this is a bit late in coming but I wish you all the best with
    Marvin, it's awful when the time comes and at 17, I don't think our
    kitty will last much longer (sob).
    
    Good luck
    
    Liz 

    I just happened to notice something today.  It is the DRY foods 
    that are loaded with protein.  This is something that the vet
    neglected to mention.  I checked the Iams moist - 10%.  Thats
    ok.  I checked the Iams dry.  It is a mighty 32%!!!  Man oh man
    am I ever glad that I checked.  Then I checked out the old CD that
    Marvin used to eat.  It is 30% protein and the moist is only 11.5%.
    
    Soooo, it looks as if the dry food may be the culprit.  Marvin spit
    up a tad this morning, then wolfed down a can of food.  I think that
    perhaps the spitting up my be related to his needing the little fluid
    push.  I will keep an eye on him over the weekend.  Yes, I definitely
    plan to do the fluids myself.
    
    Take care and thanks to all of you for your prayers, advice and well
    wishes.  In case you would like to know about my Marvin, he is orange
    and white and has mid-length hair.  He is sooooo laid back.  The vet
    loves him because they can ANYTHING to the poor thing and he is such
    a good boy.  Now, his sister, Jackie-o is quite another story!
    
    Take care,
    Arlene

    Arlene...one thing I learned is you really can't compare the
    contents level of dry vs wet because it is a complete different
    comparison.   I don't remember why...but maybe someone in the
    file can explain the difference.
    
    Sandy,

    Sandy, that is very true!!!  You must remember that in canned food,
    about 75% or more is moisture, compared to a dry volume weight.
    
    FWIW< I went to a meeting where we had a seminar on food.  Of course it
    was given by the head man locally for Nutro.  I have gone back and
    forth myself over which foods to use.  There is always the one or two
    cats that can't get on with the same as every other cat.  You just have
    do the best you can.  
    
    Anyway, one of the main points he brought up was that cats do better on
    a dry food only diet.  Teeth problems start alot due to the canned and
    wet food.  He said there is no need to feed canned if you feed a
    premium dry food.  I also got a look at the AAFCO's book with
    descriptions of what is allowable in things like "poultry digest" etc.
    Animal by-products are allowed to have a certain amount of feces, beak
    and other lovelies.  Choose a food that has better source of protein.
    One other thing, this is gross,
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    He explained why it is best not to feed corn to animals or cats in
    particular:
    It is a hard to digest food, you all know what happens when we eat corn
    the next morning?  Well, our digestive tract is MUCH longer and evolved
    than that of  a cat.  If we can't digest it, neither can they and it
    then produces more stool and is not absorbed.
    
    Read your labels and get a good understanding of what you really feed
    your cats.  If you need help, just ask.
    ja-wen
    (karen, as Carl Geenen says it is in chinese)

    But but but, if he needs fluids, the extra moisture content of the
    canned would be a good thing, yes?
    Sarah

    Yes and no.  Yes to more fluids, but realize that that moisture
    increases the amount of food.  Is he getting all the calories and
    protein needed in the canned food.  (he may need to eat 2 cans of food
    to 1/2 cup of dry to get the required nutrients).
    Karen
    
    I just thought of a couple of other things.  One of my veterinary books
    (real veterinarian book not found in bookstores) says that for some
    cases of diahrea, it is good to feed Tender Vittles ( I swear!).  One
    of the ingredients has been proven to assist getting back to normal
    bowel activity.  The other thing to pump up the caloric intake is to
    add some nutrical to the food and mix well.  Good for an ailing kitty.

    Hooray!  Hooray!  Glad to hear Marvin is so much better.  Tigger and I
    had paws and fingers crossed and sent good thoughts his way.  It's
    always so nice to read good news about a furry friend!
    
    Marilyn

    So am I hearing that it would be safe for me to give Marvin the
    dry foods?  I will definitely consult with the vet.  I have to 
    keep in mind that I have 3 other kitties.  Jackie, who stays upstairs
    since she and Tigress do not get along, only eats dry food.  Tigress
    and Tammy LOVE to eat whatever Marvin is eating.  I usually put
    dry food out for them on the top on the washer.  Marvin is too lazy
    to jump up there.
    
    Anyway, he ate again this morning.  He really likes the Iams moist.
    
    I will keep my fingers crossed.
    
    Thanks again for your prayers and good wishes!
    
    Arlene

    Arlene...I think it is best to talk to the vet, but I do believe
    that 30-32% protein in dry food is considered low. (equivelant to
    8 or 9% protein in wet food).  With both of my kitties who had
    kidney problems they were always allowed to eat the KD dry. (which
    I think is 30% protein)
    
    As well as a kitty who eats dry food will automatically drink more
    water.  
    
    So so so glad to see he's doing better!!!  I think you should change
    the title of this note to "Miracle Marvin"...instead of His time is
    up!!!
    
    Sandy
    
    

    Basicly, you have to compare the moist to the dry on a dry basis, i.e.,
    look at the moist without the water and extrapolate the real content.
    
    For example, if the moist food were:
    
    	75% water
        10% protien
    	15% other stuff
       ----
       100%  total
    
    You remove the water content and what was 25% is now 100%.
    
    SO, 25x = 100
          x = 4
    
    multiply the 4 by the amount of protien, and you have a 40% protien
    content.
    
    hope this helps.
    
    Deb
    

	I'm glad Marvin is doing so much better.  I wouldn't tamper with
	success - just keep on feeding him the stuff he likes.  My in-laws
	have a cat who will only eat Science Diet dry, which is a good thing
	since that's what the vet wants him to have.  On the other hand, my
	Tatoo was a skeleton with coarse hair when her foster family only 
	fed her Science Diet dry.  She's put on weight and developed a nice
	downy coat eating what the rest of my crew eats.  BTW, that includes
	Tender Vittles which really is good for their digestion.

	Who can figure these guys out?  We're just lucky they let us live
	with them.

	Susan S.

    Im SOOOO happy for Marvin!!!1
    
    
    HUgs,Kisses, & PRRRSS
    
    SueJ=Alex,Madonna,Mercedes and new puppy= Sydney
    

    Here is the update on Marvin.  Well, he certainly LOVES his
    Iams moist food.  He has no use for ANY dry food.  The vet
    says that this is ok.  He is also drinking PLENTY of water and
    doing big pees for mommy.  I get up at 4:00am every morning,
    including the weekends and I sit and talk to him while he eats.
    I fend off the other kitties from taking his food.  I sit next
    to the box when he is in there to listen to him pee.  My husband
    thinks that I am totally weird!  He asked me if I would do the same
    for him if he were sick.  I told him that of course I would, that 
    is, of course, if he were a pussycat.
    
    Keeping my fingers crossed!  Heres hoping my boy puts on the pounds!
    
    Take care all,
    Arlene
    
    Ps. Thanks, Deb, for the calculation of the protein content.  I will
    use that.
    
      

    Great news about Marvin!!!  Don't you just LOVE to hear the
    sound of Pee!!!!
    
    The funny part was my vet recently looked at Ziggy and said "oh my god...
    he put on some weight".  My initial response was "oh no is that
    bad"...and she just smiled and said "I never thought Ziggy was
    going to live...never mind put on pounds and looke the way he does!!!!
    
    I have a feeling...Marvin is going to be another miracle kitty who
    beat the odds!!
    
    Sandy
    
    

    So it be.