Conference misery::feline

    Judy,
    
    have they done a complete blood profile? I realize that is about $80,
    but it could point to something like Kidney failure begining; Also,
    did they try ovaban?
    
    Deb

    
    
    	No.  Because of her symptoms, they thought it could have
    	been diabetes so that's all they tested for with the blood
    	work.
    
    	What is ovaban?
    
    	JJ
    

    it is a female hormone that is often given to cats that display signs of
    agression or unhappyness by spraying. 
    
    Thirst, coupled with anemia, can be a sign of the begining of kidney
    failure, and it would only be with the profile that you could tell
    this.
    
    Deb
    
    

    JJ,
    
    I was going to reply with exactly what Deb wrote but she beat me to it! 
    She is correct, and despite the cost, that would be my next avenue of
    pursuit.  A complete blood panel will tell a lot.  It does sound like
    it could be kidney failure.  I would want to know I exhuasted all
    possibilities instead of making a hasty decision and regretting it
    later on.
    
    I feel for you.  I remember all the money I spent on past cats only to
    lose them afterwards, but the reassurance of knowing those decisions
    weren't in vain made all the difference.
    
    -Roberta
    

    And "kidney failure" sounds more eminent that it really is; changing
    the cat's food to a low protien could be the trick to fixing things.
    *MY* biggest regret is that we didn't do it sooner for Eirene (she had
    been periodically urinating on my bed and I thot it was just behavioral
    because she looked fine).
    
    Deb

    
    
    	Thanks.  I'm supposed to be meeting with Dr. Clough on
    	Sunday to tutor him on Excel and Word so I'll bring up
    	these suggestions to him.  Hopefully by then I'll have
    	been able to get another urine sample to bring with me
    	also.
    
    	JJ
    

    I have no qualifications or training but I give this suggestion 
    as someone who had kidney failure as a child. (And, please 
    don't gross out, it sound worse than it is.)
    
    Take the urine sample and cook it in the microwave for about a min or
    two.  If white threads like egg white appear then the kidneys are
    leaking albumin (sp) which is what egg white is many of.  This is
    a symtom of kidney dysfunction.  It's easy and its almost free.
    
    Best of luck.

    
    
    	Wow.  That is definitely an 'out there' suggestion but
    	it's a good idea to try before I bring a sample to the 
    	vet.
    
    	Thanks!
    
    	JJ
    

    JJ... hugs to you and Chloe!!   I do agree with others that you
    should go for the full blood panel.  My guess is "something" will
    show up in there and atleast you will know what your dealing with
    and can make the right choice for Chloe.
    
    Another thought was to get a second opinion from the specialist in
    N.H., Dr Shunk.   He is a Tufts graduate...he is very good..and he
    is nowhere near as expensive as Tufts.  Our shelter has used him
    on occasion for things that couldn't be diagnosed by our own vet
    or for special surgeries!
    
    Or since you are showing your vet some computer stuff...could you
    work out a deal of free training for some free medical help.  OR...
    offer to pay off your bill by volunteering in the office once a
    week.   Just some thoughts....
    
    Hugs to you...Sandy   
    
    

    
    
    	Sandy, that's kind of the deal.  I'll tutor him and he'll
    	knock X amount of $$$ off my bill.
    
    	I'll bring up these suggestions to him on Sunday.  Thanks
    	everyone.
    
    	JJ
    

    
    
    	Well I had my second tutoring session with Dr. Eric
    	yesterday so of course we talked about Chloe.  This
    	man is so generous it's incredible.  I'm taking a 
    	vacation to CO next week and of course am having a 
    	friend kittysit for me.  I told Dr. Eric that I felt
    	kind of bad for the friend because of Chloe peeing on
    	the floor and I didn't want to have to subject him to
    	having to mop up cat pee.  So Dr. Eric suggested I leave
    	Chloe at the hospital while I'm gone and they can monitor
    	her, do some more tests and shave her (she's so matted
    	up).  AND HE'S NOT CHARGING ME FOR THE BOARDING FEE!
    	So they'll do some more urine work, blood work if 
    	necessary and check her behavior pattern.  He thinks it's
    	more behavioral now than infection.  If the infection is
    	indeed gone, then I may try and place her in a one cat
    	home.  As much as it would break my heart to give her up,
    	I just don't feel she's as happy as she could be because
    	of the growing tension between her and Sasha.
    
    	So we'll see what happens when I get back....
    
    	JJ
    

    JJ...Great negotiation job with your vet!!!!  Chloe will be
    in the best place she could be while your away.,..and maybe
    since she will be confined to a cage and the problem is behavioural..
    maybe she'll break the habit of peeing on the floor!!
    
    Keep us posted....
    
    Sandy

    
    
    	Thanks, I will!
    

    	Cross posted from the adoption note.....
    
    
    
19855::JUDY "Wow"                                    47 lines  12-MAY-1994 12:31
                    -< Reluctantly, Chloe is for adoption >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    
    	After many months of tests, medication, behavior modifiers,
    	and many conferences with Dr. Eric I have made the diffidult but
    	necessary decision to put Chloe up for adoption.
    
    	Chloe is a 7 year old blue/cream point Himalayan with big
    	blue eyes.  She has a very sweet but timid personality.  
    	Loves to have her belly	rubbed, loves catnip and chirps when 
    	happy.  The problem is that she's had urinary infection problems 
    	for over 6 months. Part of this is medical and part of it is 
    	behavioral.  Because she is so scared of Sasha, the infection 
    	won't go away and she rebelling by peeing on the floor.  She 
    	is currently on another antibiotic and a behavior modifier.  But 
    	the situation with her and Sasha is getting worse so the other 
    	problems are not improving.  Dr. Eric feels there is a good chance 
    	that Chloe would recover quicker and flourish in a one cat home.
    	It's not a guarantee but it's the strongest option I've got.
    	Right now she's too stressed out being around Sasha to be given
    	a chance to heal, physically and psychologically.  She's just
    	not getting the quality of life she needs and deserves.
    	
    	I will provide continued medical coverage until the behavior 
    	problems are under control.  I will also provide her food dish,
    	and her brush and comb.  I will also provide any of the special
    	food she's on (Hills S/D) if there's any left at the time.
    
    	If the problem continues for a lengthy amount of time and the
    	adopter wants to return her to me, I will take her back.  I
    	don't want her going to a shelter under ANY circumstances.
    
    	If someone in here knows of someone who would provide a good,
    	loving, patient home for Chloe, please let me know.  I will only
    	let her go to a really good home.  She's a beautiful cat and hasn't
    	had a great life lately so I want to make sure she'll be happy.
    	I'm sure Dr. Eric wouldn't mind talking to anyone who might be
    	interested and has questions. 
    
    	Chloe (and mom) resides in Nashua NH.  Please contact JJ
    	at GOOEY::JUDY or DTN 381-2253
    
    	Thanks 
    
    	JJ
    	

    
    
    	Well, every day Chloe seems to be getting back to normal.
    	She's a lot more frisky, is eating more, playing more
    	and enjoying sitting in the windows more.  And she's not
    	drinking as much water nor is she in the litter box every
    	5 minutes.
    
    	And (knock on wood) she's still not peeing on the floor.
    
    	But she and Sasha still aren't getting along very well
    	so she's still up for adoption.  I still think she'd
    	be much happier away from Sasha.  
    
    	After June 11 I'll be living in Milford NH.  My new
    	number there will be 603-672-0846  for anyone that may
    	be interested in seeing Chloe.
    
    	Thanks
    
    	Judy
    

    
    
    
    	sigh....
    
    	Cat pee has appeared twice on my kitchen floor in the past
    	couple weeks.  Sasha and Chloe were getting along GREAT for
    	the at least the past 10 months.  Now all of a sudden they're
    	hissing and growling at each other again.  Chloe took to hiding
    	in the wicker shelving unit this morning.  She hasn't done that
    	in a long time.  The urine wasn't discolored and there's no
    	other abnormalities so I'm not going to bring her in for tests
    	just yet.  Hopefully it's just a 'phase' they're going through
    	and it'll work itself out.  If not, I pray to GOD I don't have
    	to go through what I did a year ago.
    
    	
    	JJ
    

    JJ- I hope it passes quickly! Madonna and Pyscho Kitty have been 
    having a little tiff and its been since Maddy came home from the
    vet after being spayed. Its been  a couple of month. Pycho is 
    chasing her and hissing ! I hate it...
    
    SueJ

    Re: .16
    I would bring her in for tests.  The urine doesn't have to be
    discolored for something to be wrong.
    

    Sue, Madonna and Pyscho Kitty could actually be the same cat.... :-)

    hehehehe Meowwwwwwww...... ;)
    
    SueJ

    
    	Well, after observing Chloe's behavior over the weekend, I
    	have a call in to Dr. Eric.  There was pee on the kitchen
    	floor twice and she's reverted to hiding on the wicker shelving
    	unit again.  I'm a bit worried that it might be more than
    	a urinary infection this time because she seems to have lost
    	some weight.  I don't recall that happening last time.  It's
    	hard to tell on her because she has so much fur but she's much
    	lighter when I pick her up and I can feel her back bone quite
    	prominently.
    
    	sigh.....
    
    	JJ
    

    
    
    	Stopped by Dr. Eric's on the way to class tonite.  She's going
    	in for the day tomorrow and he's promised to look in on her.
    	I'm praying to the kitty God that we can cure this bout quickly.
    	I can't handle (and I won't put her through) another 8 nonths
    	of tests and drugs.  He's suggested putting her on valium again
    	and maybe putting Sasha on it as well to cut down on the
    	incidences between the two of them.
    
    	And more pee on the kitchen floor tonite when I got home....
    
    	JJ
    

    
    
    	Let's see if I can do this without crying......nope.
    
    	I just got off the phone with Dr. Clough a short time ago.
    	Chloe has full blown kidney disease - her kidneys are 
    	completely shot.  She's peeing out more than water she can
    	take in.  I have to put her on a low protein special diet
    	and make sure she always has water (which I do anyway).
    
    	Basically, there's nothing else I can do.  I just have to
    	wait and see if I feel her quality of life has gone beyond
    	the reasons to keep her with me and/or until the indiscriminate
    	peeing gets to be too much to cope with.  Right now it's just
    	on the kitchen floor, so I can handle it.  But I'm sure it
    	will eventually start happening on the bed and the couch 
    	because her kidney function is gone.
    
    	If anyone has any other suggestions, I'm all ears.
    
    	Thanks
    
    	JJ
    

    I'm so sorry.  I don't know if this will help, but out on
    rec.pets.cats, several people have said that the owner learning to
    give fluid shots has helped their cats with kidney disease have
    more good quality time.  I give Sweetie insulin shots when his
    diabetes is not in remission, and, although I have the dim idea
    that giving fluid shots may take longer, at least with the insulin
    shots it is fairly easy;  the vet can show you how if this will
    help.
    

    
    
    	Thanks Karen.  If I see Dr. Clough tonite, I'll ask him
    	about it.  I'm usually very queasy just *watching* my
    	cats get shots but if he thinks it will help her feel	
    	better while she's still here, I'll do it.
    
    	JJ
    

    JJ,
    
    How old is Chloe?  Did Dr. Clough do a renal biopsy to determine if the
    kidney tubules have a chance to regenerate?  Is Chloe responding to
    fluid therapy?  If she is, then you may want to consider having the
    biopsy to determine the primary cause of the renal disease and whether
    or not there is a chance that any regeneration is possible.  Has Dr.
    Clough given you any indications as to what might be the primary
    problem - nephritis (infectious) or nephrosis (toxic)?  I guess either
    way, the situation is probably a tough one.  At least 2/3 or the kidney
    mass has to be destroyed in order to cause failure to concentrate
    urine.  However, there are cases where regeneration is possible with
    enough tissue to allow the animal to become asymptomatic again.  Did
    Dr. Clough mention if Chloe was azotemic (high BUN and/or creatinine)?
    This can help identify how much renal mass is gone (it takes 3/4 of the
    kidney to be non-functional before the animal becomes azotemic).  This
    kind of additional information may help you with your decision on how
    to manage Chloe long-term.
    
    Since Dr. Clough is talking about sending Chloe home with a low protein
    diet, it sounds like fluid therapy (or whatever therapy he's provided)
    has worked.  You may just want to try the diet and periodic diuresis when 
    her symptoms come back.  You can always take Chloe back to the doctor
    if you're uncomfortable managing her fluids at home.  Chances are that
    subcutaneous fluid therapy won't be as beneficial as IV fluids when
    Chloe becomes symptomatic again anyway, so you may not even have to
    worry about giving her fluids at home.
    
    I wish you & Chloe all the best.  

    
    
    	re: .26
    
    	Could I have that in English?  =)
    
    
    	He didn't give me all the terminology.  Chloe's past problems
    	are in this note as well as a couple others (the FIV one I 
    	think).  She has a bout last year of 8 months of constant
    	urinary infection.  We tried every drug possible.  Then one
    	day she just up and stopped peeing in the wrong places.
    
    	We haven't tried the fluid treatment route yet.  She was just
    	diagnosed yesterday.  All he said is that her kidney's are
    	completely gone.  It has been suggested to me via mail that
    	I talk to him about giving her fluid shots at home.  If he
    	thinks that will be beneficial (and if I can afford it), I'll
    	do it.
    
    	I'll bring your note with me when I go to get the food and if
    	he's available, I'll ask him about what you said.  He'll know
    	what all that terminology means much better than I do!
    
    	Thanks.
    
    	JJ
    

    
    
    	Oh and in answer to your first question, she's 7 years
    	old.
    

    JJ,
    
    I hope Chloe is feeling better.  Fluids only cost about $10 to
    15 and last a while.  You shouldn't have a problem with that,it
    is the giving of the fluids you might need t work with :"}.
    
    It is not difficult and you will be able to do it!
    best to you both,
    Karen

    
    
    	Well I talked to Dr. Clough late on Thursday night.
    	He answered the questions that were posted a few notes
    	ago (and since I didn't write everything down I don't
    	remember everything he said)
    
    	Basically, she *is* going to die from this.  Kidneys do
    	not regenerate like livers do.  How much longer she lives,
    	depends on how well she responds to the new diet and treatments.
    
    	She's still coming to sit with me on the couch from time to	
    	time and she still purrs up a storm when I talk to her.  And
    	she's even still tolerating my brushing her.  =)
    
    	We'll just have to take everything one day at a time.
    
    	Thanks everyone for the suggestions and good wishes.  =)
    
    	JJ
    

    JJ.... Just take each day at a time and you will most likely
    be surprised how well Chloe does.    Mr Meow lived 3 years
    with Kidney problems and well over a year with only 10% of 
    his kidney functioning.  And my little Ziggy who's kidney
    profile was "off the charts" over a year ago is still going
    very strong.  Yes...they all eventually die from it, but they
    also do very well with the diet, alot of water and tender
    loving care.
    
    She will let you know when her quality of live isn't worth
    it to her.  Hugs to both of you...
    
    Sandy

    JJ,
    
    I went through this last year with my little Eirene. I do know what you
    are going though. Fluids are not that difficult to give, and I think that
    doing it prolonged her life. Of course, a cat can live a long time with
    kidney failure. A friend's cat was diagnosed at 11 and lived to 18. his
    diet was watched very carefully. Also, there is a special food
    speficially for renal failure. Ask your vet about it.
    
    Deb

    
    It's also possible that bad kidney numbers may be just a temporary
    setback.  My old guy Merlin (who'll be 20 next month) got walloped
    by a URI he caught from the kittens about two years ago.  His loss of
    appetite and dehydration made it look like his kidneys were in bad
    shape, but a week of fluid therapy and shift to a higher quality, lower
    quantity protein diet (mostly chicken; he'd rather starve than eat
    Hill's KD) brought him back from the edge.
    
    But, it's also the case that sometimes the numbers mean permanent loss
    of kidney function, which ultimately claimed both my Wabbit and
    Sandy's Chunky.
    
    len.
    
    

    ref Hill's KD (Kidney Diet, I guess), apparently although most cats
    think the canned form is Pig Slop, many think the dry form is just
    fine, at least according to postings on rec.pets.cats.
          

    
    
    	Snicker.  I've only been giving her canned thus far of
    	the k/d and she likes it fine.
    
    	I was sent some wonderful suggestions for diet changes
    	via mail so I will give those a shot as well.
    
    	Len,
    
    	Chloe had one loong URI for 8 months about a year ago.  This
    	time they did a different kind of blood test I guess and that
    	told them that her kidneys are no longer functioning.
    
    	I want to thank everyone in here and in mail that have sent
    	good wishes and given me their kitties success stories.  It's
    	making me much more upbeat that I might be able to have Chloe
    	around for longer than I thought when I first got her diagnosis.
    
    	Sometimes I wonder how I'll be able to function if/when the
    	time comes for me to leave Digital.  There is such a wealth
    	of information to be found in our notesfiles.
    
    
    	Thanks again.
    
    	JJ
    

    Eirene didn't like the K/D moist, nor the K/D dry until I started
    sprinking some water on the K/D dry and microwaving it for about 45
    seconds (to bring out the smell). Also, a symptom on kidney/renal
    failure is anemia, and a side effect of anemia is no appitite. Eirene
    had a couple of blood transfusions and following that, her appitite did
    perk up.
    
    Depending on how anemic she is (based on her Packed Cell Count), shots
    of erithropotein (?) could help, however, to have effect that cat's PCV
    should be above 20, I think.  There is some discussion about it in
    note 711.60ish.
    
    Deb 

    Just to add to Deb's note...I've been giving Wizard a shot a week of
    the synthetic hormone she mentioned. He was diagnosed with kidney
    failure about a year and a half ago and is doing very well. His numbers
    were also off the chart. He went through a week of fluid therapy, eats
    k/d dry (which his sister has to eat too since I couldn't manage
    seperate foods), and gets his shot. He was tested about a month ago.
    His numbers aren't normal, but are much improved. We test about every 3
    months or so.  The shots are very expensive, but Wiz is worth it.
    
    Nancy

    Nancy,
    
    I'm so glad to hear that Wizard is still doing well. I was thinking
    about his when I read this string.
    
    Deb

    
    
    	Nancy,
    
    	That's one of the things I feel terrible about.  Dr. Clough 
    	told me that with the food, fluid treatments and lab tests
    	for follow up, it could cost upwards of $500 over the next
    	six months.  Being secretary and being self-supporting, I just
    	don't have that kind of money.  And I feel so GUILTY saying that.
    	So I'm just to have to do what I can that's within my budget.
    
    	Glad to hear the your kitty is doing well.
    
    	JJ
    

At least you get to say "goodbye".

Economics like this (read: reality) is already used by insurance companies for
humans.  The scale is just different.  I guess we embody insurance policies
for our cats, and we can only cover so much.

    
    	Thought I'd post an update on how Chloe is doing.
    
    	She had her first fluid shot just before I left for vacation.
    	She didn't even flinch the four times Dr. Eric put that HUGE
    	(to me anyway) needle in her.  Her appetite picked up immediately.
    	I was dismayed however to find out that she'd dropped 3 pounds
    	in about a year.  She was 9.2 last spring and now she's only at
    	6.4  =(
    
    	I brought her in yesterday to be shaved, she got SO matted up while
    	I was on vacation - how do they do that in just a week?!  When I
    	went to pick her up, I got the bag of fluid, tubes and needles and
    	brought them home.  I gave her the first injection last night - and
    	I didn't pass out. =)  I did start to panic though because the
    	fluid made a bubble under her skin.  When Dr. Eric did it, I didn't
    	notice it and I realized that was because she had a lot more fur
    	then.  But I called him in a panic asking if that was normal and
    	he said yes.  It eventually went down.  I felt so bad though cuz
    	she cried when I put the needle in.  =(
    
    	I just cannot say enough about Dr. Eric.  He didn't charge me
    	for the fluid or any of the sundry products to go along with it.
    	The man is truly a saint and I'm very proud to call him my friend.
    
    	I'm going to try and get some more fluid into her tonite.  She
    	was definitely eating better this morning.  She hasn't had
    	much of an appetite.
    
    	JJ
    

    Hi JJ,
    
      Dr Eric is indeed a "saint"(as well as the whole staff). He treated
      Pookie( God rest her soul) for this illness and he was wonderful.
      Pookie decided that she did not "wish" to have me administer
      her treatment, so Dr Eric would do it, while I was working.
      He treats my "kids" so well, I was traveling so much,
      and he boarded for me,, (we call it "going to KittyKamp")
      he was so good to them, I know they got all sorts of attention
      from that staff,while I was gone.. I felt good (although I missed
      them terribly) knowing that they were in such good hands.
      Of course, the girls arrived with their "binkies"toys, treats, bibs
      radio(set to their favorite station) to move into the cat condo..
      Richard and Diane and Avis refer to them as " the little princesses"
    
     Both of you are in my thoughts and prayers,,
     Kate

    JJ...it does get easier in time!!!   So glad to hear Chloe seems
    to be doing better.
    
    Sandy

    
    
    	Well it looks like Chloe may have a new ailment or something
    	to add to the list, she's at the vet today.  She's been
    	coughing/wheezing for the past couple weeks.  At first, I 
    	thought it was just a hairball but since it continued I figure
    	it must be something more serious than that.  My first guess is
    	asthma.
    
    	I just called and talked to Dr. Eric and said he hasn't had a 
    	chance to look at her yet, but he'll hopefully have some answers 
    	for me when I go pick her up in about an hour.
    
    	As far as her ongoing kidney ailment...I haven't had to give
    	her any of the lactating ringers for over three weeks and her
    	appetite is still good, she's still playful and she's still
    	feisty with Sasha.  So she seems to be doing well with that
    	so I'm quite happy with the situation.
    
    	Now I'm just hoping whatever she has now isn't anything 
    	too serious.
    
    	It was actually kind of funny when I dropped her off this
    	morning.  The guy at the desk, Jim,  is fairly new so he doesn't 
    	know who I am so he asked "who do you have with you?".  Dr.
    	Anderson was standing in one of the doors and she said "That's
    	Chloe.  Chloe Morrissey."  I just looked at Jim and said
    	"She's on a first name basis with just about everyone in
    	  here"    =)   Too bad it isn't for other reasons.  =(
    
    
    	JJ
    

    JJ...hope all is well.   Ziggy had the same symptoms last
    fall and it ended up being pneomonia which was treatable!!!
    I also thought it was hairballs at first...but once he stopped
    eating I knew he needed to see a vet immediately.
    
    Please keep us posted.....
    Sandy

    If it is asthma, I have a bundle of helpful info, since Sweetie
    has asthma/respir. problems.
    

    
    
    	Well he didn't hear any fluid in her lungs or any other symptoms
    	of something nasty.  He gave her a shot each of prednisone and
    	ampicillin to be safe and though she was still coughing a little
    	on Friday, it wasn't as bad and I didn't hear her cough at all
    	yesterday after I got home.  So I'll keep my fingers crossed that
    	it was just a fluke bug or something.
    
    	JJ
    

    
    
    	Well whatever it was she had cleared up over that weekend
    	and she's doing just wonderfully.
    
    	Her appetite is still good, she's happy, still my little
    	druggy (she loves those catnip bags!) etc..........  I'm
    	very pleased at how she's doing.
    
    	Now, if I can just manage to keep her fur at a reasonable
    	length.........  =)
    
    	JJ
    

    
    	Well Chloe seems to be going downhill a little.  =(
    
    	She's been peeing on the floor again and this time she's
    	taken to peeing in the back room off the kitchen.  It's the
    	only room with carpeting in it.  I'll have to stop off and
    	get some Nature's Miracle to douse the carpet with. Unfortunately,
    	she got my canvas craft bags too so I'll have to wash those.
    
    	I've been giving her the lactating ringers but it doesn't seem
    	to be helping this time.  =(   She's not eating as much either
    	and is spending a lot more time in the litterbox.
    
    	JJ
    

    	
    
    	Update to .49
    
    	Well, there's still not much improvement.  She's eating,
    	but still peeing indiscriminately.  I've been giving
    	her the lactating ringers and Dr. Clough gave me a long
    	acting anti-biotic to see if that would have any effect.
    	It hasn't.  And she's getting really really stressed with
    	me constantly coming at her with the needle.  Last night,
    	(after giving up even trying) I picked her up to say I
    	was sorry and give her a hug and she just kept growling
    	and meowing at me.  =(   I was pretty upset by the time
    	I went to bed.  Ironically enough, Dr. Clough finally got
    	in touch with me this morning (we've been playing phone tag
    	since Monday) for an update.  After we talked he told me
    	that it may be time to accept that there's nothing more
    	I can do for her, and prepare to let her go.  He feels so
    	bad for me.......  Fortunately, my other half was with me
    	this morning so I didn't have to fall to pieces alone.  We're
    	moving to a new apartment next month that has carpeting in
    	the two bedrooms and the living room.  The bathroom is HUGE
    	so I would keep Chloe in there when not home.  Shane said that
    	we'll move, see if anything changes after the move, and then
    	if not, decide what to do from there.  
    
    	JJ
    

    Good wishes are coming your way from me and my furry horde,
    
    Karen, Sweetie, Holly, Little Bit, and Blackie
    

    I remember how hard it was with my little Eirene, so I understand
    what you are going though. The FIRM and I are sending good thots the
    way of you and Chloe.
    
    Deb

    
    
    	Thanks Deb and Karen.... (and the herd of furry faces)
    
    	I'm keeping my fingers crossed that things will be ok in
    	the new place.  Weird as it may sound, she improved immensely
    	when I moved from Nashua to Milford a couple years ago.  I
    	plan on shampooing the few rugs I have (and adding some Nature's 
    	Miracle) this weekend so if there is any trace of urine smell
    	left, maybe this will wipe it out.  And I'll be making another
    	attempt with the lactating ringers tonite.
    
    	

    What I do with my small rugs (Holly has basically not used a litter box
    since Little Bit arrived) is fill the washing machine with warm water
    and detergent and half a bottle of Nature's Miracle and the rug,
    agitate(sp?) enough to mix things together, and then let the rug
    soak for several hours, then send it thru the wash and rinse cycles.
    The several hours seems to let the Nature's Miracle work.
    
    While this is going on I swab the area under where the rug normally
    is with more NM and let it dry.
    
    For bigger rugs, a local cleaner deodorizes and washes them.
                           

    Karen,
    
    Do you get a quantity discount of NM? A quart is about $11 out this
    way! I've found that soaking in 20 Muke team Borax or Armn and Hammer
    Washing Soda with about a capful of NM will take care of the problem
    of the scatter runs that get hit.
    Deb

    
    
    	Thanks for the advice Karen.  As of right now, I don't have
    	my own W/D.  That'll change come June though.  My mom works
    	at a furniture store so I just call her when I need throw
    	rugs and she gets me remnants or discontinued styles from
    	the books you look at when choosing a rug.  As Chloe pees on
    	them I just throw them out and put down a new one.  The only
    	exception is my small braided rug and (obviously) the large
    	braided............
    
    	JJ
    

    I'm another one that uses the Natures Miracle by the gallon
    and is trying to find cheaper alternatives too!!!  I just
    recently try washing the pee smelled items in Borax...and
    I thought it did a pretty good job at getting the urine
    smell out too.
    
    Sandy (who should be part owner in NM by now!!!)

    I've tried longer soaks as opposed to NM.  It seems to
    work okay for bathroom carpets, but not for the rag rug.
    The folks at Pet Food Depot don't blink an eye any more when
    I approach the checkout counter with four 20 pound bags of litter
    and four bottles of NM :-)
    
    Yes, I know bathrrom carpets are notorious pee-attracters because of
    that weird backing, but the alternative is not covering up the
    zillion year old linoleum, or the huge commotion of having floor work
    done and trying to keep 4 kitties calm in the process.
    

    By the way, if anyone knows of a reasonably decent looking substitute
    for larger area rugs, I sure would like to know about it.  These are
    about 5 x8 and too big for my washing machine, so they only get dragged
    off to the cleaner too infrequently.  I've bought cotton rugs thru
    catalogs, but they always turn out to be basically clothlike, and
    the kitties prefer thick rugs to lay on.
    
    Has anyone come up with something that removes the dark stains
    on wood floors that getting zapped causes?
    
    :-)
    

    >I approach the checkout counter with four 20 pound bags of litter

    I guess I'm lucky in that I'm now able to get litter in the handy
    50 lbs bag. It really builds helps build muscle, and qualifys as
    "weight bearing exercise"!
    
    Deb

    >about 5 x8 and too big for my washing machine, so they only get dragged
    >off to the cleaner too infrequently. 
    
    it might be cheaper to do them at a laundramat. There is one near
    my house that has "quadruliple load capacity".
    
    >By the way, if anyone knows of a reasonably decent looking substitute
    >for larger area rugs, I sure would like to know about it.
    
    Depends on your definition of decent. I've bought some cheap comforters at
    Building 19 that I'll spread out on the floor for the cats to hang out
    on. If someone is comming over, I just pull it off the floor at the
    last minute. They do fit in my washing machine. Also, they have the
    added benifit that the cats can burrow under them and sneak attack each
    other.
    
    Deb

re .59

I don't know of a good rug alternative either, but I second the suggestion 
of using a laundromat instead of the cleaners.  If you have an Oasis or 
something similar near you, you can drop them off in the morning and pick 
them up in the afternoon.  Cheap!

				SQ

>    I approach the checkout counter with four 20 pound bags of litter
>    and four bottles of NM :-)
    
    Pet Club in Mt. View sell Nature's Miracle by the jug (1-2 gallon?)
    for $21-22.  I can't remember the exact size of the jug or the exact
    cost even though I have one at home.  I think it was $21.99 for a
    gallon but I could be wrong.  Will try to remember to check tonight.
    
    Pet Club is located next to Costco on Rengstorff in Mt. View.  I've
    been finding some pretty good prices on Science Diet and Johnny Cat
    there.  Last purchase of a 20lbs light maintenance was $18.99 and 20
    lbs of Johnny Cat for $2.99.
    
    Jan                             

    
    
    	Not much to update but.....
    
    	I've gotten in touch with Paws and Claws re: their
    	Piddle Pants.  I wanted to make sure that this was 
    	ONLY for urine and not stool as well.  That would
    	be too much of a mess for me to want to deal with.
    	So I think I'll give them a go.
    
    	In the meantime, Chloe has started doing something she's
    	never done before.  Talking..... incessantly!  Mostly to
    	have the water faucet in the downstairs bathroom turned on
    	so she can drink from it.  She's never been very vocal unless
    	growling ast Sasha.
    
    	And I still can't quite understand why she insists on peeing
    	RIGHT OUTSIDE the litterbox rather than inside.  We leave her
    	in our very large bathroom at night and when we're gone during
    	the day.  She has her food, water, and a kitty condo for something
    	soft to sit on/hide in...though she prefers to sit on the edge
    	of the tub, between the shower curtain and liner.
    
    	We leave newspaper outside both boxes.  She won't go in the
    	box unless it's to do something other than pee.
    
    	She seems to have lost some weight again so I'm trying to
    	remember to give her more intravenous liquids, though she's
    	tolerating it less and less.
    
    	I'm getting to the point where I think I may have to just let
    	nature take it's course, stop stabbing her with the needles,
    	and keep her as comfortable as possible till she really starts
    	to go downhill.
    
    	JJ
    

    Judy, has there been a culture done recently from Chloe's pee?
    I understand sometimes that helps pick an antibiotic that's
    aimed right at the infectious agent.  Also,sometimes cats with urinary
    tract infections use porcelin(sp?) etc surfaces to pee on or sit on
    because they feel cooler and so more comfortable.
    

    
    
    	Karen,
    
    	There aren't any antibiotics anymore that will do any good.
    	Her kidneys are completely shot, it's not just an infection.
    	My only route of sustaining her is the special diet and 
    	lactating ringers.  As for porcelain surfaces.... she doesn't
    	pee or sit in the sink, just wants to drink from it.  =)
    	She pees on the newspaper right outside the litter boxes.
    
    	Thanks for the thoughts, though.
    
    	JJ
    

    JJ,
    
    I think Karen picked up on your line about how your kitty likes to sit
    on the tub (between the shower curtain and liner).
    
    FWIW,
    Leslie

    
    
    	OOps!  Oh yeah........ forgot about that.  =)  But it's not
    	a porcelain tub...
    
    	And I think she does it sometimes to hide from Sasha when
    	they're all out and about.  She's funny like that.  She'll
    	find one spot she likes and hide in it for a while, then abandon
    	that one for another etc.....
    
    	I didn't have shower curtains in the old apt, there were glass
    	doors.
    
    	JJ
    

    
    
    	Well, I've decided I can't stand the kitty pee smell any
    	longer so........ Chloe shall shortly be adorned with a 
    	pair of "Joybie's Piddle Pants" from Paws and Claws.  I
    	called and placed my order today.
    
    	We are going through ALOT of newspaper in front of the boxes
    	and the urine is ruining the wooden floor in the kitchen.
    	
    	We also will be away a lot this summer and I don't want to
    	have to leave her locked up in the bathroom every time 
    	we're gone.  Don't know what I'm gonna do when I"m in 
    	Hawaii in July.  Changing the 'kitty diaper' might be a 
    	bit much to ask of the kids who take care of them for us.
    	Anyone live in the Nashua/Milford area that is free June
    	29-July 9?  =)
    
    	I'll keep you all posted as to how much she hates them and
    	what they look like.  Oh, they were $17 for the pants, $6
    	for a box of 30 pads, but because of Chloe's size, she said
    	I can probably cut them in half and get 60 pads.
    
    	JJ
    

    JJ...If you can't find anyone to watch Chloe, would it
    be possible to board her while your away.   Talk to your
    vet...he knows Chloe so well he might offer to board
    her for a VERY low price.
    
    Sandy 

    
    
    	I thought about that but I'd feel guilty leaving her there
    	for ten days.  I talked to the kids' mom and she seems to 
    	think they wouldn't have a problem with a kitty 'diaper'.
    	I'll have to talk to them myself and see if that is indeed
    	the case.
    

    
    
    	Well I got the Joybie's Piddle Pants in the mail last week
    	and put them on her.  She didn't seem to mind once it was 
    	on and I was all psyched that I wouldn't have to pick up
    	pee-soaked newspaper 2-3 times a day anymore.  No such luck.
    	*Somehow* she's managed to pee, avoiding the pads inside the 
    	pants, and still peeing on the floor; getting the pants soaked.
    	I've tried three times.  They seem to fit snugly, but not too
    	tight.  And she's being groomed (shaved) today so they'd probably
    	be much looser after the grooming.  I've got a message into
    	Paws and Claws to see if there's something I"m doing wrong.
    
    	Has anyone else used these or used the homemade Stud Pants that
    	might have had the same problem and figured out how to rectify
    	it?  I have *no* idea how she's doing it.......