Conference misery::feline

    Great progress.....Have you tried catnip with Gypsy yet!!!!  

    Terrific!!  Have you tried feeding him baby food?  Most cats go nuts
    for the stuff.
    
    Also, if you have a kitty teaser toy, try tempting him to play with
    you.  That's what I used to tempt JJ out of the bushes when we first
    met.  She freaked when she realized I was sitting right in front of her
    and would run away startled but kept coming back for more.
    
    Good work, Laura!!  Perseverence really pays off.
    

Sandy, I tried catnip when I first got Gypsy, but he didn't seem to go for it
too much!  I also put it in their cat toys.  I make almost all my own toys, they
prefer them to the store bought ones!!

Roberta, Gypsy does play occasionally! I haven't tried baby food, Yonee had 
suggested that a while back, I think she said to get the lamb!?  I'll have to
try that, too. She told me to put some on my finger and maybe he'd lick it off
and I could try petting him while he was doing that.

Thanks for the suggestions!

Hugs,
Laura

    Yonee? Do I remember that name? ;-) Yup, it's really me. I hope to be
    able to be a bit more active at least for a while!
    
    Laura! Sounds like you and Gypsy are starting to make some real
    progress! I'm thrilled for you! One of these days, if the @!^$#)* snow
    EVER decides to go away, I'll make it up to visit you and Gypsy!
    
    I need to come out that way soon anyway, cause I'm in desperate need of
    a Sandy 'fix' also! 8-)
    
    Yonee

Yonee, good to see you again!!  The snow is almost all melted at my house now!
Time to get out and come over!!  I picked up a jar of lamb baby food yesterday,
and with doubtful expectations went upstairs to see if Gypsy would lick it
off my finger.  He Did!!!  About 10 dips worth!!  Then he had enough and backed
away and wanted no part of me.  What a thrill!!!! :-)))

Hugs,
Laura

P.S.Roberta, your pictures are on the way!!

    Great news, Laura!!  Keep spoiling him like that and he'll be putty in
    your hands.
    
    Can't wait to see the pictures!!  I'll put them on my wall by Len's
    cats.  They'll make a striking pair.
    
    -Roberta
    

Well, for the first time last night, I saw Gypsy approching Buki in a playful
manner!! Looks as if they may become pals!  Gypsy also is walking around a
little more openly in front of me.  He's starting to walk rather than creep,
but still won't let me touch him!

His family survived the winter fine, and I'm still feeding them outside.  I saw
his brother and mother yesterday.  As his brother walked away, I noticed his
body and fur and the way he moves is strikingly similar to Gypsy, except he's
solid black.  It was upsetting to see a big tear on his mother's ear, but
other than that they all looked fine!


Laura

    Laura,
    
    That's great news!  Any chance you can trap momcat, get her spayed, and
    put her back?  It would be the best thing for her (and to get brother
    neutered as well).  Please think about it; maybe the vet can work a
    deal with you.
    
    BTW, Laura sent me a picture of Gypsy, and he is gorgeous!  (So is the
    rest of her kitty family.)  The coat on him is just lovely!
    
    -Roberta
    

There's no way I can trap momcat and brothers and sisters and get them fixed.
I just don't have the extra money.  Gypsy's already cost a couple of hundred,
and after today my finances will have a real strain on them due to personal
matters.  I wish I could just put some kind of birth control in all the food
I put outside!

Laura    

Haven't been in here for a while, since until recently there's been no news
to report on Gypsy, and also it's been really busy here.

Since I opened the door to Gypsy's room, he has withdrawn quite a bit, running
from me whenever I get within about 3 feet of him.  Saturday, we decided to 
chase him downstairs.  He stayed down there for about 3 hours, under the couch,
then returned to his room.  Monday I chased him downstairs again, which took 
about 15 minutes in itself.  He ran downstairs to the first floor, then down the
basement stairs and back up, through the dining room, into the kitchen and
bathroom, then back upstairs.  I had closed all the doors up there, so he had
nowhere to go but the landing.  I sat down with him, and started petting him 
with his pink plastic stick, using the suction cup end which he loves.  At that
point Buki came up the stairs to see what was going on.  This diverted Gypsy's
attention, and he turned his back towards me.  I kept petting him with the stick
and also with my hand at the same time!  He turned around and hissed, but stayed
where he was, then looked back at Buki.  I eventually was petting hin with just
my hand!!  Everytime he turned around and saw my hand he'd hiss, and then I'd
go back to the stick.  I petted him for about 10 minutes, and even got to 
scratch him behind the ears!!  What a thrill!!!!!  Then he had enough and 
started spitting...

Yesterday when I got home from work, I went upstairs to see him, and he wasn't
in his room.  I thought it was great, that he had finally gone downstairs...
wrong...I had locked him in my room by mistake.  I felt so bad, then got 
worried that he might have had an accident!!  Luckily he relieved himself on
a pair of my sweat pants only, they were promptly put in the wash!

Now I'd like to get the food out of his room to force him downstairs.  If
I put it down at the bottom of the stairs, and  gradually move it to the kitchen
I imagine he'll find it, won't he?  I'll leave the litter box and water there
for the time being.  They'll be next!!

That's all for the latest chapter!!

hugs,
Laura

    Great news, Laura!  Gypsy sounds like a real character, but judging
    from the sweet picture in my office I can't imagine him hissing at
    all!!
    
    Regarding the food:  I remember feeding Herbie in the basement for the
    first week or so since he was terrified of anywhere else, but as soon
    as I noticed he was exploring the house on his own during the night I
    stopped bringing his food downstairs.  Since we had removed the door
    leading from the first floor to the basement, he came up during his
    "safe" times (while we were at work, late at night, etc.) to eat. 
    Eventually, he began joining the rest of the cats in the kitchen when
    he heard me getting meals together.
    
    I would stop feeding Gypsy in his room now and force him to integrate
    into your daily routine.  He'll go at his own pace, and he won't go
    hungry if food is left out all day for free feeding.  If you notice he
    isn't getting nourishment then you can go back to feeding him upstairs
    again.  Maybe you can begin by hand or spoon feeding him when you
    notice him downstairs so he'll get used to having meals there, and also
    acclimate himself more to you at the same time.
    
    Just some random thoughts.
    

Well, I took your advice and removed the food from Gypsy's room, and now...I
haven't seen him for four days.  I can't believe how much I miss him.  I know
he's in the house somewhere, but we searched from top to bottom and cannot
find him!!!  I guess he's found the food all right, but it does have me
worried.  All we could imagine is years down the road trying to sell the house,
telling prospective buyers that they need to leave cat food, water and a litter
box out, because there's a cat they'll never see there!!!

SIIIIIIIIGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!

Laura

    Oh wow, Laura, I didn't think that Gypsy would completely vanish! 
    Do you have proof he's eating the food, or is it difficult to tell with
    your other cats eating too?
    
    Do you have a basement?  I remember Herbie first hid under the stairs. 
    It was very dark and I had to actually crawl underneath with a
    flashlight to find him.  He had scrunched himself way back.  Nikki did
    it too (a formal feral) when we first moved into the house.  It took
    some time to figure out where they had wedged themselves.
    
    Never underestimate the abilities of a scared cat.  They can fit into
    places you never thought possible.
    
    Feline bad and sorry :(
    
    -Roberta
    

    Laura...believe me Gypsy probably has 10 hiding spots which
    you don't even know you have. Over the years, I have had MANY 
    stray/feral kitties sleep in my cellar.  And each time a new
    one is down there...I laugh and say "you can't hide from me..
    I know all the spots".  Well it never fails they find a new one
    and we go a few days without seeing any cat!!
    
    IF/When you do find Gypsy...I would suggest putting him back in
    the room for awhile and try to gain his trust that way.  FOOD is the
    key to his heart...and right now he has his freedom and all the food
    he wants....so he don't need you!!!  You'll gain his trust faster
    if you can atleast spend "some" time in the room with him alone!
    
    Sandy 

>    Oh wow, Laura, I didn't think that Gypsy would completely vanish! 
 
	Yesterday when I got home from work, I searched the house again...no
	luck.  At 2:15 a.m., I heard a cat scooting around under my bed,
	and thought "That's Gypsy!".  Sure enough, it was!!!!  He ran into his
	room, and I followed.  It was so good to see that cute little face
	again!!  I gave him a couple of treats, and he gobbled them up like
	he was starving.  He must not have found the food in the kitchen, or
	maybe he was too terrorized by Buki to go for it.  So, I went downstairs
	and got him some food, which he immediately started in on.

   >Do you have proof he's eating the food, or is it difficult to tell with
   > your other cats eating too?

	It was really difficult to tell, but I guess he wasn't eatng.
    
    >Do you have a basement?  I remember Herbie first hid under the stairs. 
    >It was very dark and I had to actually crawl underneath with a
    >flashlight to find him.  He had scrunched himself way back.  Nikki did
    >it too (a formal feral) when we first moved into the house.  It took
    >some time to figure out where they had wedged themselves.
    
    >Never underestimate the abilities of a scared cat.  They can fit into
    >places you never thought possible.
    
	I do have a basement.  The stairs are enclosed with a door he can't
	open, but there are alot of places to hide.  I thought I had checked
	them all out!  

    >Feline bad and sorry :(
    
	Thanks Roberta!!  I'm just so glad that he's still there!!  I'm going to
	try moving his food downstairs one step per day, and see if he'll follow
	it that way, but if my suspicions are right and he's hiding from Buki,
	I don't know what I'll do!

    Hugs,
    Laura
    

>    Laura...believe me Gypsy probably has 10 hiding spots which
>    you don't even know you have. Over the years, I have had MANY 
>    stray/feral kitties sleep in my cellar.  And each time a new
>    one is down there...I laugh and say "you can't hide from me..
>    I know all the spots".  Well it never fails they find a new one
>    and we go a few days without seeing any cat!!
 
	Sandy, I believe you!!!!  They seem to just disappear into thin air!!
   
>    IF/When you do find Gypsy...I would suggest putting him back in
>    the room for awhile and try to gain his trust that way.  FOOD is the
>    key to his heart...and right now he has his freedom and all the food
>    he wants....so he don't need you!!!  You'll gain his trust faster
>    if you can atleast spend "some" time in the room with him alone!
 

	I don't think he has his freedom with Buki around, I think maybe he
	wasn't eating and was hiding because he was scared.  I'd really like to
	avoid confining him to his room again...how long do you think I'd
	have to keep him in there?  I've heard stories about feral cats taking
	7 years to come around, and some of them never socializing.  I've
	got to get the food and litterbox out of there by the time summer
	rolls around...

Thanks,
Laura

    Whew, Laura, I am so glad to hear that Gypsy is back!!
    
    I don't know what to suggest regarding the food.  When I lived in my
    townhouse there were feeding stations all over the house... in the
    master bedroom, in the kitchen, and on the stair landing leading to the
    basement.  It was easier that way, and every cat (5 at the time)
    managed to get his share.  Why do you have to get the food out of the
    bedroom?  For sanitary reasons or because you are in a hurry to
    socialze Gypsy?
    
    I'm really happy he is okay!
    
    -Roberta
    

>    Whew, Laura, I am so glad to hear that Gypsy is back!!
 
	Didn't see him again last night or this morning, I guess he's hiding
	again...at least I know he's in the house now!!! :-)
    
    >Why do you have to get the food out of the
    >bedroom?  For sanitary reasons or because you are in a hurry to
    >socialze Gypsy?
    

	Well, for sanitary reasons (ant season approaching) mainly.  Also,
	because that's the "guest room" that he's in, and I really don't want
	a litterbox upstairs.  If there was a bathroom up there it would be
	fine, but there are only three bedrooms upstairs.

>    I'm really happy he is okay!
 
	Thanks Roberta, so am I!!!   
    

Laura
    

It's been over a week now since I've seen Gypsy :-(.  I've only seen him twice
in the last three weeks...does this sound normal?  I know he's spending most of
his time in the cellar.  Sometimes when I go down there I hear a small rustle,
but I can't find him!!!  I miss his cute little face.  It's so strange having an
animal in the house that I never see!!

Laura

    Laura, maybe the next time you see him you should quickly close the
    cellar door so he can't go back down!
    
    Do you know if he's eating?  I've been wondering how he was doing and
    hoped  you'd have better news.  :^(
    
    -Roberta
    

Roberta,

I'm sure he's eating, there's enough food missing for three cats.

I can't close the cellar door because the litter box is down there.  I hope I
see him again soon.  I have dreams that we have to move, and can't find him,
and have to tell the new owners to make sure they leave out a litter box, cat
food and water because there's a cat living in the house even though they'll
never see it!!!

I see his stray brother and sister all the time, am still feeding them outside.
I haven't seen his mother in a long time though, I'm afraid something may have
happened to her. 

Hopefully I'll have better news next time.

Laura

After three weeks, I finally saw Gypsy this Sunday!  I put some canned food
out in the basement, and closed the door to keep Buki and Sabrina out for
a while.  After about an hour, Steve and I went down to see if any of the food
was eaten...there was Gypsy, finishing up the last of it!!  When he saw me, he 
took off and showed me his hiding place, between a brick wall and a rock wall,
there's just enough room for him.  What a sad existance he's living.  I wonder
if I should have just left him outside.  I really hope he does come out on his
own.  Now at least I can go downstairs and "talk to the wall", maybe this will
help.

Laura

    Laura...if possible I would put Gypsy back in his room until
    he becomes more socialable with humans.   Now that he has his
    total freedom and food...he no longer needs you so therefore he
    doesn't even have to show his face!!   The way to their hearts is
    with food, catnip, and there sense of needing you! (even if it is
    for food....you can make him work in becoming more social with
    every bite!!)
    
    It takes so much time and patience!!
    
    Sandy

Sandy,

I wish I could put him back in his room...I have no idea how I'd catch him.
I did see him twice last week when I put food down for him.  This past weekend
I tried to lure him out of hiding with kitty tuna, but no luck.  I can't see 
into his hiding place. He's literally inbetween a rock and a hard place...if
he's still in the same spot.  This crazy 85 year old house of mine, in the
workshop in the basement has a brick wall, and then a rock wall in front of it.
There's about a 4" gap that Gypsy's getting into, and I don't know how long it
extends down the room.  The way the pipes are, I can't even get my head against
the wall the look down it, and it's at a height of about 5' off the ground.

  When I lured him out for food last week, even when he was gobbling it, every 
time I tried to get close he jumped back up into his space. We're going away on
vacation next week, so I'll try after we get back to catch him...any idea how
I can manage that?  Maybe putting lamb baby food out will do the trick.  He'll
only have had dried food for a week, so I'm pretty sure he'd be easuily tempted
by some more "odorous" food.  

Wish I was as good at foresight as I am at hindsight!!!!  I do feel good knowing
that he's in the house and eating though!!  When I saw him last week, he didn't
hiss at all, which I took as a positive sign.  He's gotten so much darker that I
almost thought he was my tonkinese, Sabrina!

I knew this wasn't going to be easy, and I'm not about to give up...I just wish
I hadn't listened to someone's suggestion to give him freedom of the house...I
thought I was doing the right thing!!!!  

Hugs,
Laura

    Laura...
    
    It sounds like your best solution is to wait until you get back
    from vacation and then try to lure him with food.   At that point..
    I would NOT leave food in the basement which would force him to come
    back upstairs to eat and then I would atleast close the basement off
    for awhile.   If your lucky...he'll go back to his room where he knows
    was his original comfort zone...and you can just close the door until
    he becomes more social.
    
    These wild kitties are so funny...because they truly feel they do
    not need humans until their little belly is hungry and then you can
    see a complete change in their attitude!!   I have used my basement
    for my ferals and it is truly amazing the different places they have
    learned to hide.  I "thought" I knew where all the hiding places
    were...until we took in "Happy Cat" and we searched for days for him.
    Well...he found a nice comfort zone sitting on the pipes up near
    the ceiling.  Of course...we never looked up until we got too close and
    he started spitting at us!!!!  
    
    Good luck...and keep up the GREAT work.   Gypsy will hopefully soon
    realize that life with humans can be wonderful!!!!\
    
    Sandy
    

    How about trying to trap Gypsy?  The trick there is to make her
    hungry enough to get into the trap.  If tuna isn't working now, she
    must have a full belly.  Do you have a Hav-a-hart trap?  If you decide
    to go that route, you have to be strong enough to withhold her food
    until she takes the bait in the trap.
    
    Good luck!
    Pam

    Laura, I was the one who suggested giving him freedom of the house.
    How was I to know how he would react?  My ferals never hid for this
    long.  Some cats never come around now matter how hard you try, and I
    don't care what anyone here says.  I've seen it firsthand.  All the
    food, patience and love in the world sometimes just doesn't work.
    
    I personally don't think it's fair to keep a cat cooped up in a single
    room day after day.  It can lead to depression and anxiety, and those
    behavior traits certainly are not going to make an already upset feral
    cat come around.  Sandy's Van Gogh is an exception, since he prefers
    his room and doesn't get along with the other cats in the house.
    
    Anyway, I took great offense to the comment in your final paragraph. 
    No one told you to take my suggestion as gospel, since I am not the one
    who lives with Gypsy on a daily basis.
    
    -Roberta
    

    I think each cat is different and they all have to be treated
    in a different way.  What works for some cats...just won't work
    for others!!   I also feel it depends on how the cat was previously
    treated by humans too....it will take a lot longer to get to a feral
    cat if it had been abused by most humans it met.
    
    All we can do in this file is suggest, provide opinions, pros/cons
    and it's up to the individual to try the different alternatives to
    find what works best for them.
    
    Sandy
    

Roberta,

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to insult you...there were several people that told
me I shouldn't keep him cooped up, and I *know* everyone did it with good
intentions.  I didn't mean to infer otherwise!! I have valued everyone's
suggestions, I'm just feeling frustrated with myself that what I did didn't
work, and that's why I wish I didn't follow that advice. Please don't take that
comment any other way!!!  I'm also sure that each case is different.  I felt
horrible keeping Gypsy cooped up in his own room, it's no one's fault but my
own that he's hiding in the basement now.

I originally trapped him with a Havahart trap, so I don't think I could do that
again!  I can stop putting food in the basement for him, I only started putting
it out for him last week to see if I could get him to come out, because I was
worried he might not even be in the house anymore.  This will force him upstairs
but it seems he only comes up when I'm at work or sleeping, so I'll have to 
figure out someway to get him out of that basement.

Thanks for the advice.

Laura      

Well, I've decided to try the havahart trap again.  I'll rent one on Saturday,
and hope he'll be hungry enough for the wet food to go for it.  

Lola

Gypsy is now back in his room.  He's so skinny, he was evidently only eating
enough to keep alive.  He seems relieved to be back in the safety of his own
room, and judging from the scratches on his nose and cheek, Buki was
terrorizing him and keeping him from eating.  When I think about him starving
between those two walls and frightened half to death, I think I probably should
have let him remain outside as a feral cat from the beginning.  I've learned
my lesson, and will never attempt to do this again.  Unless it's a teeny, tiny
kitten...

Laura

    My purpose is not to give you a hard time, but to give you an alternate
    view on keeping ferals confined (I'm not for it).
    
    You can still let him back outside (as long as he's neutered), and
    leave food if you think he's around to eat it.  We've done this with so
    many ferals, and these were wild kitties!    But we just don't have
    the time or room to convert them all, and then we'd have to find homes.
    
    They all have access to food and water, and come and go as they
    please...they just can't make babies anymore.  They are happy ad we're
    happy.  If they live for an additional day or 10 years  (We have some
    that are close to 5 yrs in this situation), I feel better knowing
    they arn't stressed out in an uncomfortable situation.
    
    Life for a cat in a cage or to be locked in a room just does not seem
    like it would be enjoyable.
    
    

    Laura,
    
    I'm glad Gypsy is back in his safe place!  I do agree with Michele,
    though many Feliners will disagree with us.  We're not saying put Gypsy
    back outside now (definitely give him some time to adjust to you
    again), but if you feel it should come to that it isn't something to
    feel guilty about.  You have tried your best and then some!
    
    Here's hoping Gypsy will flourish now that he's back in his room!
    
    -Roberta
    

    It's all what is best for the person.  I do believe that you can
    get to every feral cat...but it does take ALOT of love, patience
    and understanding.  And if you do have the time to spend...the kitty
    will come around in time!!!
    
    There is nothing wrong with keeping a feral confined until you win
    his trust...and there is nothing wrong with letting a feral back 
    outside if you personally can deal with the consequences.  I've
    let my feral (remember "Happy Cat") back outside...and within
    two months he disappeared and I still wonder where he went and
    if he is alive.  He even disappeared AFTER I won his trust!!
    
    Laura...do what is best for both you and Gypsy!
    
    Sandy

    Just to let you know...my sister's cat lived quite happily in a
    room of his own for years before she placed him with my mom.  He
    was intimidated by the other cats and didn't want to come out.
    He was well fed and cared for.  She made a point of visiting with
    him regularly in his room.  As long as the cat is feeling secure
    there's no reason why he cannot continue to stay in his room as
    long as is comfortable for both cat and care giver.
    
    Jan

    One note though - if you do decide to let him free outside, be
    sure you have some kind of shelter where he can keep warm in the
    winter.  An old doghouse is good for this, with a blanket in the
    doorway to keep out the drafts, and some hay inside to keep him
    warm.
    
    I'm glad you got him back in his room so he can at least eat well
    and bring back his strength (poor baby).
    
    Either decision you make will be the right one for you.
    
    Good luck
    Pam

	Well, I can't let him back out no matter what, because when I had him
neutered, I also had him declawed.  I've been feeding his family outside since
December, and they've dwindled from three to only one that I see now.

	I hope Sandy's right, that I can win him over with enough patience and
love.  He seems happy to be back in his room, and at least he doesn't have to
worry about Buki scratching him and biting him.

	I guess we really do learn from our experiences, I've done alot of
things wrong with this little guy.

Laura

    I'm sure you probably can win him over.  One of the cat's that the PB
    shelter helped me with was wild!  Toot....remember him Sandy?  All he
    did was hide in the rafters.  Sandy's husband Ernie spent a lot of
    time befriending him, and eventually he was adopted.....so I believe it 
    can happen with time and patience.
    
    Think about JJ (Robert's latest rescue case). 
    
    In my personal situation, the wild cat population is just too huge -
    and growing - although it's not like it used to be.  We just don't have
    the time, patience or room for all these cats, and I can't get people
    to adopt the ones that are friendly.....never mind the feral ones, so
    we're doing the best we can.
    
    Good luck....and use lots of tuna, catnip....and strained spinich!
    
    Michele

    I too have faith in your abilities Laura!  Keep up the good work.  I
    don't always dispense the best advice so just follow your heart.  After
    all, you're the one living with Gypsy, not us, so from now on, act on
    your own instincts and you can't lose!
    

    Laura,
    
    Please don't be so hard on yourself - you haven't done anything
    *wrong*.  You've taken Gypsy in out of the cold/heat, away from disease
    and fleas and hunger and possibly being killed by a car or dog or
    some other predator, and supplied him with food and love and a room of
    his own :-). Things haven't gone smoothly, but he's OK. and with time and 
    love and lots of food, he'll come round. One thing you might try, if
    you're not already is to just be with him. He's in his room now, in his
    safety zone, just be there. Feed him and talk to him and sing to him,
    but also just be in the room, maybe read a book, listen to the radio,
    watch TV., whatever, without really focusing on him, to give him time
    to just get used to having you around.  But whatever ends up working, 
    Roberta's right, just follow your heart, the same heart that was large 
    enough and loving enough to take him in and be his friend and caretaker 
    and you'll both do fine!
    
    Rebecca 
    

    As well as you neutered another stray cat and save hundreds of
    unwanted kittens from being born in the wild!!  And those hundreds
    of kittens could end up at your doorstep!!!
    
    Laura...I just hope to god I'm still at DEC when you post your final
    update and say "I patted him..he purred..he loves me...he's a 
    sweetheart...I'm SO happy I took him in!!  That note will come!!!
    
    I do agree with just spending alot of time with him.  I remember night
    after night I sat in the chair down cellar with Happy Cat perched
    above my head on the rafters.  I would sing...he would hiss...I would
    talk...he would spit and then one day I looked down by my side where
    I had left his wet food and lo and behold he was standing there!!
    I was so shocked I started shaking and truly didn't know what to do
    next!!  But we took it slow...and the day he showed me his belly
    was the day I knew I reached his heart!!
    
    Toot, the kitty Michele mentioned, is another hard case!!  MANY
    volunteers at the shelter were petrified of Toot because he
    would attack.   Well it took a very LONG time..but Toot now lives
    in a home with a wonderful woman and sleeps on the bed...purrs his
    head off...and the funny part is he shows no sign of aggression
    and hasn't bitten anyone yet!!
    
    That's why I do believe with time and ALOT of patience every cat
    can be won over!!  Keep us posted....   
    
    Sandy
    
    

    
    Laura,  
    
        We had a similar case with a real wild, just nuetered male 
        a very large short haired black and white cat at the shelter 
        I volunteer at. He had his comfy bed made in his cage which
        was always left open and he could roam around this little room
        and look out the window and stuff. I 'd bring him his food and 
        then just sit there and talk to him gently as he was eating 
        I always sprinkled a little catnip on my sleeves and shirt, I
        started by playing with him with a feather teaser which was also 
        sprinkled with catnip, he'd chase it around the room and I would 
        let him catch it occassionaly just to tast that catnip. After 
        only a few days, he was so happy to see me 'cause I played with 
        him and he had fun every time i was there. One day I sat on the
        floor with catnip sprinkled on my lap and while having him chase
        the feathers made him come real close to me . He started to smell
        the catnip and then started to lick it off and then climbed on my 
        lap and started rolling in it and purring and I was scratching his 
        chin and all. After that it has been easy for me to pick him up 
        he now is allowed to roam in the shelter with other cats and 
        those not bother any of them just occassional hisses. 
    
        I too think that there is a way to every cats heart. You have 
        invested a lot of your time and patience on Gypsy and I'm sure
        someday you'll be able to just pick him up and give hime cuddles.
    
       Shaw

	Thanks for all the encouragement everyone.  It's great to hear about
	other wild cats that have turned around.  I can't wait until the day
	I can tell you I've won Gypsy's heart either!!  
	
	I know I probably prevented alot of other feral cats being born, but
	maybe the best way to go with these guys is to just trap them, neuter
	them and return them to the wild.  It's hard to say.  Is is better to
	live a shorter life and enjoy freedom, or live a longer, healthier
	life and be confined the whole time?  Everyone will have their own
	opinion on this I imagine!

	hugs,

	Laura

	Last night I made a hook out of a wire hanger, and attached it to the
	door on an eye, and put an eye on the frame to hook over.  Now the door
	to Gypsy's room is kept open about 1 1/2".  He can't get out, and my
	other two can't get in.  I'm hoping they'll get used to each other
	through the door.

	I'm tempted just to grab Gypsy and hold him down gently while petting
	him, but am afraid it'll scare him even more than he already is.

	Laura

    Laura....someone else in the file has removed the wooden door
    and put up a screen door so that cat can atleast see out!!!
    
    I'm still thinking about doing this for Van gogh who is
    my kitty who is confined because he HATES all other cats;
    my only fear is he'll rip right through the screen!!!
    
    Sandy
    

	Funny Sandy, I was just thinking about doing that last night!!

	Laura    

    
    There could be good and bad with that. Example is there is a stray 
    male cat (I guess) that regulary comes by and jumps at our screen
    to get at our cats and creates quite a havoc. It has come to a point 
    that when we're not home or up to spray him away, we just have to 
    keep the windows shut and shutters shut and AC running. 
    
    Shaw

    Shaw...the screen door would be put in the house.  In my case
    I'd remove the wooden bedroom door from Van Gogh's room and
    replace it with a screen, that way he could see right out into
    my kitchen!!  
    
    Sandy

    
    
     Hi Sandy, my concern was in Laura's case the other cats in the house
     jumping at the screen (replacement for the door) in which Gypsy is 
     at. 
    
     Shaw

    Oppss...sorry I misunderstood!!   I have the same concern with
    Van Gogh because I have a feeling he would not only jump at
    the screen to get to the other cats...he'd probably eat the
    screen to get to them!!!
    
    Sandy

	Maybe I'll just keep the hook on the door, and they can play
	"pawsies" through the opening!  :-)

	Laura

Just a quick update...Gypsy's put on several pounds, and is starting to look
healthy again!  He must have been severely dehydrated.  He really made me smile
yesterday when he half-heartedly started to play with one of his toys!

Laura

    
    Laura, that's great! Have you tried any catnip with him? Or an
    interactive toy, like a feather teasser? That would be a good way
    to get involved in some fun together and begining of a longtime
    friendship ;-)
    
    Shaw

Shaw,

I have lots of toys I try to play with him!  I make my own toys!  One he likes
is a piece of felt shaped like a mouse, and stuffed with fiberfill and catnip,
sometimes I stitch a few feathers on where the tail would be.  Then I crochet
a long cord, and attach it to the end of a piece of plastic hanger, leaving
the hook to hold on to.  He also likes the track with the ball in it, sometimes
he'll bat it back and forth, and previously Gypsy and I batted it back and forth
to each other.  Hopefully he'll get back to that point soon!

Laura

This weekend with Gypsy was great!!!  I had two major "heavy petting sessions"
with him!!!  He still hisses whenever I come in, but he's starting to tolerate
me!!  I now do believe the day will come when he comes to me...probably quite
some time still, but I have high hopes!!

Laura

    Great news about Gypsy!  It does take a really long time sometimes
    to get them to break the barrier - but it sounds like you're making
    great progress!!
    
    Pam

    Laura...How's Gypsy and you doing????  Is she a lap cat yet! Ha!ha!!
    
    Sandy

    Laura,
    
    So sorry to hear about your Mom.  I lost both parents at an early
    age so I know the feeling of grief and emptyness!
    
    Some day Gypsy will make all this effort worth while...
    
    Sandy

Another first...Gypsy purred while I was petting him Tuesday night!!  At first
I thought I was hearing things!!


Laura

    That's great!!!!  It's seems like such a simple little thing but I 
    know how good it feels when they respond, especially since I've been
    working with Torbie.
    
    Jan

	Well, not much change between my relationship with Gypsy, but I think
it's time to let him have free roam of the house again.  I say this because
twice this week I let Buki ib the room with us, and Gypsy is not nearly as
intimidated by him now as he was before.  He actually runs right up to him and
bats back when Buki tries to turn on him.  He's also crying alot to get out.
He plays more actively with me now, but still runs from me whenever I approach
him.  The first thing on the agenda this weekend is to barricade his space
between the walls so he can't hide in there and starve himself nearly to
death again!!


Laura

    I don't have my own account, so I'm borrowing this account to enter
    this:
    
    Hi Laura, and everyone else!
    
    I'm the person who takes care of Laura's cats while she's on vacation. 
    Last week while she was away, I had the pleasure again.  I'll tell ya,
    Gypsy's quite the character!  Beleive it or not, he never hissed at me
    when I entered his room.  He just carried on as if I had been there the
    whole time.  He even allowed me to scratch him with the suction cup end
    of the "pink stick" that Laura mentioned in an earlier note.  When I
    put his wet food in his bowl, there was some food stuck on the kitty
    spoon, so I went over to him and he licked it off.  While he was doing
    this, I was able to pat him (boy is he soft!!!), but as soon as I took
    the spoon away, he turned around and hissed and spat.  Oh well, at
    least I got to give him a few pats and let him know that he's being
    very well taken care of.
    
    Having seen Gypsy right from the beginning when Laura first took him
    in, and seeing him now, I can honestly say, "Laura, you're doing a great
    job with him.  He's come such a long way!  Keep up the good work".
    
    Hugs,
    Lori B.

Thanks Lori!!!  You know I'll keep trying!  You should have seen him last night
with Buki, he's such a riot to watch, so animated and full of curiousity now!

It's such a comfort knowing my kitties are in such good hands when I go away,
and you know Markie and the fish will be this week when you go away too!

Hugs,
Laura

    So, what did Gypsy do with Buki last night?
    
    Of course I know that Markie, and Colleeto and Al (Shane's fish) will
    be in good hands.  I'm very much looking forward to the trip.  This
    morning I asked Shane if it was okay if you took care of his fish and
    he said, "Yup, and if Colleeto dies will you buy me another fish with more
    colors?".  Hahahaha, the things he comes up with.  And I thought that
    damn fish meant more to him than Markie.  I guess not!!!
    
    Don't worry about me moving away Laura.  If it happens, it won't happen
    for a while.
    
    Lori B.  

Lori,

See .62!

Laura

P.S. If the fish dies in my care, I'LL buy him another!!

    Don't worry Laura, I don't think the fish will die.
    
    Lori

Gypsy has his freedom of the house once again.  This time I'm optimistic
that it's going to work out.  Last night I was in bed reading, and looked down
to see Gypsy lying on the floor next to my bed, looking up at me!!  When I
turned the light out, he jumped up on the bed and pounced on my foot!!  I moved
my foot a few inches, and he flew off the bed!  It's great that he wants to be
near me, even if I can't just reach out and touch him...he's gone when I try!
He's getting alot quite well with Buki so far, so it's looking very positive!

Laura

Wow, was I pleasantly surprised last night...I was at the kitchen table molding
plastic kitties, and Gypsy came into the room!  Seems like he wants to be near
me, just not within touching distance!  He's getting along really well with
Buki and Sabrina, too!!

Laura

    Great news Laura......pretty soon Gypsy is going to rub up against
    your leg...and you'll have a heart attack from the surprise!!!
    
    Life is probably so much easier for her now that the other two cats
    seem to have accepted her.   Now she just needs to accept the fact
    that she has to share the house with humans too!!
                                                             
    Sandy

I'm waiting for that day, Sandy!!  He loves the other two cats, gusee I'll
be next!  Two nights ago, he jumped on my bed when I was in it with the lights
on!!

Laura

Laura,

Just read all .72 notes in this thread.  The last reply was just under a year 
ago and ELF shows only one  DREYER  (LOLA,  LAURA,  LAURA A) so I'm assuming
you're still with DEC...................

How's Gypsy?

(If I've missed something somewhere else in this conference I apologize - I'm
 an infrequent reader at best..................)

Gypsy is doing just fine, but I still can't pet him!  He's almost always
near me though, making squishy eyes at me.  He's a real little beggar too,
loves people food!  He has a new habit, when I'm sitting on the couch eating
dinner.  He'll stand on his legs and hook one paw around my hand to get
a treat.  Who can resist??!!! When I make any move to touch him though, he's
off in a flash.  He also twirls and rubs around my legs whenever I'm in
the kitchen preparing food.  He'll take it from me and lick my fingers
but that's as close as he'll allow me to get.  Ah well, my vet said it took one
of her friends 7 years.  I know alot of people say they've established a 
"petting" friendship with a feral in a matter of weeks, but I think those cats
must be strays, not ferals.

Sabrina (my 16 year old Tonkinese) and Gypsy are real buddies now, constantly
licking each other and rubbing heads.

I wish I had gotten Gypsy sooner, if I knew he was feral when I first saw him I 
think he'd be totally trusting by now.  I'm sure one day he'll be very loving,
he's one of the sweetest cats I have ever seen towards other cats.

Thanks for asking!

Laura

A funny thing happened with Gypsy yesterday.  He was sitting in the kitchen 
window, totally preoccupied with an outside diversion.  I was about two feet 
away and thought "hmm, this is my chance to touch him".  I reached out and
touched him, and before he could react also held him with the other hand.
As I suspected, he didn't try to bite or scratch, just hissed and in about
5 seconds managed to escape.  He was a bit leary of me for a couple of hours
after that, but it was worth it!

Laura

    and if you keep trying to touch him he'll soon realize that humans
    aren't that bad.  My best time to pet a feral was when they were
    eating or when I gave them catnip.
    
    Keep working on her....she'll give in!!
    
    Sandy

    Best time for me to touch Torbie was when she was eating.  I 
    used to scratch he little behind.  She loved it.  It got to 
    the point that I could do it when she wasn't eating too.  
    There were times when she was on the couch that if I scratched
    her butt she'd put her head down and next thing you know, she'd
    fall over and let me scratch the rest of her.
    
    Geez, I miss her.  Not a trace of her in three weeks.
    
    Jan

>    Geez, I miss her.  Not a trace of her in three weeks.
    
  
	I'm so sorry to hear this Jan, I've been hoping to hear good news.

	Gypsy won't let me near him even when he's eating, he's always got
	one eye and ear on the lookout.  Even when he's taking food from my 
	hand, he won't let me reach out and touch him anywhere.  I've been
	feeding him so many treats he's become quite the little porker!

	I won't give up, even if he never lets me touch him!

	Laura

    Laura,
    
    No good news about Torbie's return just yet.  I'm not giving up.  She's
    out there somewhere.  I'm just thankful for the unpredicted rain on
    Halloween that just may have kept my little orange and black baby out
    of harms way (not that she was just out there in the crowds but ya
    never know what lengths a determined cat harmer will go to, especially
    on Halloween).
    
    Re:  Gypsy
     
    Torbie was that way at first too.  I had to be very sneaky to get my
    arm around where she didn't see it coming first and then touch her
    little butt.  It was a long process that took amazing amounts of 
    patience (something I'm not possessing great quantities of).  
    
    Hang in there.  With time and love Gypsy will probably come around.
    He may never be a little affection slut muffin like Torbie (when it
    was her idea) but ya just never know...stranger things have been known 
    to happen.  
    
    Jan
                

	Jan,

	He seems like he'd be the sweetest cat in the world if he'd just
	let himself!  I've never seen such a submissive, loving cat with
	other cats.  I've had him for two year (minus 12 days)...I'll
	keep trying, that's all I can do!  Thanks for the encouragement!

	Sandy, I've tried catnip but he didn't seem interested in me then
	either.  I sould keep trying that too.

	Laura

Well, more progress has been made!!  About every other week Gypsy now sits in 
front of me looking at me, a different look than when he normally looks at me. 
This is his "I want to be petted look"!!  I still have to approach very slowly, 
slithering down to the floor from the couch and inching over towards him.  I
still have to start petting him with a foreign object until he looks away, then
I can substitute my hand.  Another big difference now though, when he turns his 
head and sees it's my hand on him, he doesn't bolt anymore!  He jumps a little
and then relaxes.  Not bad after only 3 1/2 years...I'm serious, my vet said
it could take 7 years or even never!

Laura

    Great job Laura...I still love hearing about the progress Gypsy
    makes!!!

He has come a far way Sandy!!

Laura

    It is such a great feeling when you make that kind of progress!
    
    Deb

         Congratulations, you're doing a wonderful job!
    
         I can't wait 'til the day you write and say Gypsy was on your
    *lap* 8-) .
    
    					- Andrea
    					  Loki, Midnight & Patches

Andrea,

I can't wait for that day either!!!

Laura

Another first last night...my boyfriend, John, petted Gypsy for the first time
while I fed him some chicken at the kitchen table (Gypsy, not John)!!

Gypsy now lets me pet him for about 2 minutes every other day.  I still can't 
just reach out with my hand if he sees it, but what a big change in him!!!

Laura