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Conference misery::feline

Title:Meower Power - Where Differing Opinions are Respected
Notice:purrrrr...
Moderator:JULIET::CORDES_JA
Created:Wed Nov 13 1991
Last Modified:Fri Jun 06 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:1079
Total number of notes:28858

255.0. "Major concerns with judging at shows" by GRANPA::CCOLEMAN () Mon Apr 13 1992 14:57

    If this note is unappropriate, or contains verbage that is
    unacceptable, please let me know and I'll rewrite it. Otherwise, I
    would like to obtain comments/experience/feelings of what happened to
    me this past weekend at a show.
    
    As some of you know, I'm a new breeder of Korats. Right now I am
    actively showing my 6 month old, P.A. Now, to give a little background,
    Korats are definitely hard to show. They talk -- ALOT! It almost sounds
    like the judge is 'squeezing' them too tight, or pinching them. But
    it's all normal, if you know Korats.
    
    Anyhow, P.A. did her normal 'complaining' in the first ring, but did
    well. The next ring, however, was another story. The judge grabbed her
    out of the cage, swung her up, shook her, swung her down then up again,
    shook her, then one more swing up and down, tossed her in the cage, and
    slammed the door shut. Not only was I standing there with shock,
    horror, and disbelief, but so was the crowd! He had not treated ANY of
    the other short hair cats before mine like that!~ I had tears in my
    eyes, and P.A. was a mess! 
    
    The next 2 rings were disasterous. She bitched worse, and when the
    judges put her back in the cage, she lunged at them, all fangs showing.
    She had NEVER done that before. That ^#$&^ judge got her so out of
    whack, I could just mutilate him!
    
    Well, I called the breeder who is my 'mentor' and asked her if she had
    heard of him. She tells me yes, and that he absolutely, positively
    HATES KORATS! When Korat fanciers were petitioning for Korats to become
    a recognized breed in 1961, in fought against them.
    
    Since I'm a new breeder, it was recommended that I keep my mouth shut.
    And that there are no formal complaint mechanisms in place without
    'black listing' you. 
    
    This is so horribly unfair. My kitten is major stressed out, and now am
    going to somehow convince her that people are okay -- but as she found
    out some aren't human.
    
    Since some of you have been showing for quite some time, what would you
    do? Would you do anything? Would you complain? To who? I really don't
    want to make waves, but I can't see WHY this guy is still a judge
    (after talking a bit more to my mentor, she said that he does this ALOT
    of times!)
    
    Upset and frustrated,
    Cheryl
    
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255.1A suggestion...strength in numbers?CIVIC::FAHELAmalthea Celebras/Silver UnicornMon Apr 13 1992 15:238
    I don't show, I have no knowledge of shows, and I may be out of line,
    but...
    
    How about getting a mailing list of Korat breeders and owners, and
    getting some kind of petition or mailing to the "proper authorities"
    about this judge?  
    
    K.C.
255.2AYRPLN::TAYLORMake the world your playground.Mon Apr 13 1992 15:2523
Cheryl, I had this happen with a judge in CFF as well.  Funny, it was one
of my Korats!  He didn't seem to like Korats at all (for some odd reason).
He took Pita out of the cage and swung her around in the air.  Put
her up OVER his head (Korats have this thing where it's really best for
all four feet to be supported.  They feel more secure that way).  Held
her up there with one hand and looked at her.  She didn't like it at all
and swatted him across the nose! (-:  He got angry with this and just threw
her back into the cage and slammed the door.  

I was furious!  He calls himself a judge and does something like this!
He is no longer a CFF judge, but when he was, I would just completely
withdraw my cat from his ring.  I refused to bring any of my Korats into
his ring just because of the way that he handled them.  

But from what I understand, there is not much you can do.  Just about the
only thing that you could do is refuse to show in his ring.  But make
sure that the clerk writes "Withdrawn" for your cat.  I know that in CFF
people start to get a bit curious if too many cats are withdrawn from
a specific judge's rings.

Holly


255.3Call him on the Carpet...or deck him!MODEL::CROSSMon Apr 13 1992 15:2712
    I wouldn't care if I were blacklisted for life, this is a form of
    cruelty to animals and I would definitely speak up.  That's your baby
    out there, and no one, but no one would get away with treating one of
    mine like that.....  I wish I could be more helpful, and logical, but
    when I read your note, I literally saw RED.
    
    I agree with the last noter...perhaps a petition....or talk to this
    judge offline and explain to him/her that though they have a problem
    with this particular breed, they should not be taking their anger out
    on the animal.  After all, your  kitten has feelings too.
    
    Nancy (who is livid!)
255.4OXNARD::KOLLINGKaren/Sweetie/Holly/Little Bit Ca.Mon Apr 13 1992 15:563
    This is appalling.  Isn't there any provision for complaints to the
    organizations that run these shows, and presumably invite the judges?
    
255.5BOOVX1::MANDILELife hand ya lemons? Make Lemonade!Mon Apr 13 1992 17:0013
    Well, to tell the truth, I wasn't impressed with most of
    the so called judges that were "judging" at the cat show
    I entered my HHP, Rusty, in.  I thought the overall handling
    of all the cats/kittens was on the rough side, some judges
    being rougher than others.  Only one took the time to bring
    out the best in the cats/kittens. (read that as, "patiently"
    and "gently" handled each cat/kitten, talking to it, petting it,
    etc.) The rest rushed through each cat, stuffing them back into
    the cages.  One I actually saw whack the cat's head on the top of
    the doorframe of the wire cage (ouch!) as she was putting the cat
    back!!!!  
    
    Lynne  
255.6SANFAN::BALZERMAMon Apr 13 1992 18:2120
    
    I was given advice early on when it came to judging. 1) when you enter
    a show you are paying for one person's opinion in the ring that you are
    in 2) if you don't like the way your cat is being handled, absentee it
    from the ring.  Judges get paid for each cat that they handle.
    
    I love the way some judges handle the cats and others I could just slap
    upside the head.   Some judges don't take time with the cats because
    they could care less about the breed or they have their own idea about
    what that breed should look like.  If yours doesn't fit what he/she
    thinks the cat should look like, forget it.  Some judges handle them
    roughly because they are basically afraid the cat because they have 
    had bad experiences with biting, etc. (then don't judge).  Some judges
    "style"  is an extention of their personality.  Others are just like
    you and I, they have had a bad day, they are behind in the schedule,
    etc.  It's not an excuse, it's just the way things are.  Cat clubs 
    choose their roster of judges.  Complain to the show committee and 
    let your opinion be heard.  If enough people complain, the club probably 
    wouldn't use the judge in question if they have an option.
    
255.7JUPITR::KAGNOKitties with an AttitudeMon Apr 13 1992 18:2312
    I agree with Holly, simply withhold your cats from that judge's ring
    each time he is at a show you are attending.  Simply inform the clerk
    that you are withholding your cat from that ring.
    
    Showing is stressful enough, let alone dealing with ignorant judges.
    
    I think it sucks that you are told to "shut up" because you are a new
    breeder.  Is subjecting your cats to such behavior that important in an
    effort to attain a title?  I would think the breeders would feel the
    cat's well being is first and foremost.  Unfortunately, with some
    folks, this doesn't always apply.
    
255.8another point of viewMUTTON::BROWNMon Apr 13 1992 18:4257
    Before we all go getting in an uproar, lets remember a couple of
    things.  First, judges are human beings, and they are handling cats
    that they do not know.  There must be some degree of fear if you have
    to handle a cat that is acting aggressively (hissing, growling, etc.).
    Second of all, the judge is the one that has his hands on the cat and
    can tell if the cat's body is telling him something that we may not be
    able to see.  A cat that is very upset, and likely to blow, will be
    very tense, with every muscle poised for the attack.  It is likely that
    in this instance, that was the case.  Judges don't relish being bitten
    anymore than the rest of us do.   Some cats just make a lot of noise,
    but have no intention of attacking a judge.  Only the judge can make
    the decision as to whether or not the cat is recalcitrant in any given
    situation.
    
    I have seen situations where it appeared that the judge was swinging
    the cat up and down, and in reality that happened because the cat was
    literally climbing the judge's arms trying to get away.  The judge may
    have been just trying to maintain control over the cat in order to
    avoid losing his grip.  If that had happened you would have had an even 
    greater problem on your hands, and upset cat running loose in the show 
    hall.
    
    Now, on the flip side, the judge could have requested a handler for the
    cat, or refused to handle her at all.  That would probably have been
    more appropriate behavior than what he/she actually did.  
    
    As far as what you can do about it.  Write a letter.  Write to Kim
    Everett who is the judging program administrator in CFA.  Tell her 
    exactly what happened, which judge it was, and which show it was.  I
    would stick with the facts, and not elaborate on what you had been told
    about this particular judge and his/her opinion of your breed.
    
    You can also write a letter of complaint to the show committee.  The
    members of the committee are the ones that decide which judges to
    invite.  If they think that exhibitors are unhappy with the judges,
    they may be reluctant to ask that judge back in the future.  
    
    As far as blacklisting, I think that you are letting rumor and heresay
    cloud your judgement.  This issue will be between yourself, the judge,
    and Kim Everett unless you involve other people.  I know of individuals
    who have written letters of complaint against clubs, exhibitors,
    judges, etc. in my 7 years of showing, and it hasn't seem to cause any
    of them to be blacklisted.
    
    There are other actions you can take.  If you don't want to write a
    letter, then simply do not show your cat in that judges ring again. 
    You can have your cat marked absent from the ring when you enter a show
    that that judge is officiating at.  The way shows work, you are paying
    for that judges opinion.  If you do not wish to have his/her
    opinion, don't show in his/her ring.  Also, judges get paid per the
    number of cats that they judge, so if you absent your cat from that
    ring, that is one less cat that judge will be paid for.  
    
    If you feel your cat has been treated unfairly, then you should take
    some action.
    
    Jo
255.9ThanksGRANPA::CCOLEMANTue Apr 14 1992 09:3724
    Thanks, everyone, for your thoughts/opinions/feelings. I have had tears
    in my eyes every time I think about this. And I've decided to have my
    kitten marked absent the next time he is a judge at any show I am at. I
    will probably hesitate ever entering my cat in a show that he is a
    judge at anyhow.
    
    P.A. was not growling or hissing at him when he picked her up -- just
    talking. It wasn't till after he picked her up that she started
    freaking! 
    
    I do plan on writing the KCFA (Korat Cat Fanciers Association) and tell
    them what happened -- our newsletter has been asking why people aren't
    showing Korats anymore! (I think I'm starting to know why!) As for
    writing CFA, I've got to get myself together. I start writing and get
    extremely emotional -- I need to separate that if I want to be listened
    to. 
    
    Again, thanks for the feedback. I can't say I feel better about what
    happened, but I do feel good that I've had good comments/suggestions!
    (BTW: I'd say 95% of the judges that I've seen in the past 1-1/2 years
    haven't been bad, but this guy has taken the top of my dislike list.)
    
    Thanks again,
    Cheryl
255.10let them knowFORTSC::WILDEwhy am I not yet a dragon?Tue Apr 14 1992 13:199
whatever you do, write the committee that arranged the show at which this
incident took place.  Calmly explain what happened....and simply tell
them that you will absent your cat from the ring when that judge is judging
cats -- and that you will not recommend that judge to anyone else who might
ask because of the incident of rough handling that you experienced at their
show.  If a judge is that frightened of the cats, he shouldn't be handling
them at all....at no time is it acceptable for anyone to rough up a kitten
because the kitten is making noise...while unpleasant, a kitten-bite will
not seriously threaten life and limb when properly treated.
255.11MUTTON::BROWNTue Apr 14 1992 14:4333
    It will do no good to notify the show committee you will not be
    recommending a judge to your friends.  And withholding your cat from a
    judges ring has no affect on the show committee, so they have no need
    to know that information.  
    
    The best way to handle this is to at least let them know of the incident, 
    calmly, with facts not emotions, so that if they have been asked by the
    judging program administrator (Kim Everett) to evaluate this judge, 
    (evaluations are sometimes required of show committees if a judge is 
    requesting advancement), they have this information at hand.
    
    I have had the unfortunate experience of having one of my cats bite a
    judge.  This cat did not hiss or growl first in warning, he just lunged
    at the judge and bit.  It caused a great deal of damage.  First Aid was
    immediately and properly administered, and yet the judge still required
    a visit to the emergency room that evening.  
    
    No matter the size of the cat, a cat bite is a very serious wound. 
    Until you have received a cat bite, you will not understand the
    inherent subconscious effort to avoid getting one.
      
    I do not think it is fair to claim that the particular judge in the
    base note or in my situation was just plain frightened of cats
    and shouldn't be judging anymore.  The main point is that since none of
    us had *our* hands on the cat, we will never know how much of a threat
    the cats involved may have been to those judges.
    
    I would say that complaining to those with a need to know, and giving
    them facts and not emotional response will get the best results.  Those
    people include the show committee, and the judging program
    administrator.
    
    Jo
255.12AUKLET::MEIERHey, furball, who pays the mortgage here?Wed Apr 15 1992 14:109
Hi Cheryl,

I can understand the difficulty in writing a factual letter when you are
feeling so many emotions from the experience.  Perhaps it may help to have
another experienced breeder/exhibitor review your letter(s) to be sure the
salient points are clear, and the emotions are not present as a distraction...

just a thought,
Jill, who also felt quite emotional after reading your basenote :-)
255.13I'd start locallyA1VAX::BARTHDEC's fallen and can't get up?Wed Apr 15 1992 17:5122
More thoughts:

I believe that the show committee will probably take your letter quite
seriously.  They may or may not act on it - but I suspect, were it our
club, that we would probably discuss it quite a bit before deciding whether
or not to invite that judge to be at another show of ours.

If you know someone who is a member of the sponsoring club, you can call
him/her and explain your situation ahead of time.  They may or may not
think a formal letter is necessary.  I know at our club the grapevine is
so good that one phone call is like 20 letters!  :^)

I've never had cause to write to Kim Everett, but I imagine she takes her
judging program pretty seriously.  If nothing else, you'll have registered
your complaint and if others have the same experience, a pattern will emerge.
That's probably what it will take for Kim to choose to act.

Of course, you could solve the fundamental problem by just showing Persians!

:^)

K.
255.14thoughts on handling techniquesMUTTON::BROWNWed Apr 15 1992 18:3149
    I think that in a lot of these cases, most people wouldn't lodge a
    complaint officially, since so many people are afraid of "making waves"
    (and all those other cliches).  The ones who are afraid then advise
    others not to complain.  Talk of blacklisting usually follows the
    advice not to complain.  But, in order for any changes to be made in
    the way things are done, injustices will have to be brought to someone's
    attention.   Kim Everett does take the judging program seriously.  I
    think she would want to know the details of any case that could involve
    mistreatment of a cat at a show.
    
    I have been fortunate to never have had a judge mistreat one of my cats
    while judging them at a show.  I have had a few judges handle my cats
    rather clumsily, or awkwardly, thus upsetting the cat a bit.  But none
    of my cats have ever suffered from handling.
    
    One thing that I have been noticing at shows lately is that different
    breeds require different handling techniques.  You wouldn't stretch a
    Persian, and you shouldn't "stack" a Siamese.  You should see some of
    the "methods" judges use to look at the gloves and laces on a Birman.  
    If judges would pay attention to the different handling techniques 
    that are best for the different breeds, then maybe fewer cats would 
    become upset in the ring.
    
    Right now my breed is getting a bad rep for being nasty in the ring.  I
    am showing a 14 month old whole male grand champion.  Most of the time
    he is very well behaved in the rings, but at the last show, he was very
    unhappy.  Carefully watching the judging showed me that when judges
    were handling him, they were laying him on the table on his stomach,
    and then pulling his front legs up towards his ears/shoulders to see
    his gloves.  Well, when I mimic this with my own body, I see that it is
    very uncomfortable!  This was usually the point at which he became
    upset in the rings.
    
    I approached one judge about this method of examining gloves, and was
    told that this is the best way to examine gloving while still
    maintaining control over the Birmans.  Judges are passing this tip on
    to each other!  I told the judge that this method was uncomfortable to
    the cat, and that there was a better way to check gloves on a Birman
    that wouldn't cause discomfort and upset the cat.  I brought the cat up
    and let her try it, and of course he was better behaved that time.  I
    just hope that she passes this tip on to other judges.
    
    Hey, with the grief Birman breeders are getting over the temperament of
    their cats lately, I have considered showing Persians!!  I have never
    seen one of them act up.  Must be nice. :')
    
    Jo
    
    
255.15you should create some seminarsFORTSC::WILDEwhy am I not yet a dragon?Wed Apr 15 1992 20:3423
>    Hey, with the grief Birman breeders are getting over the temperament of
>    their cats lately, I have considered showing Persians!!  I have never
>    seen one of them act up.  Must be nice. :')

HMPH!  Well, I personally think Birmans have great purrsonalities -- and if
judges cannot see their obviously superior qualities, they must need glasses    
or something....but, I could be a tiny bit prejudiced here....

re: biting.  I may be weird, but I have always assumed that when bitten, I've
just done something that hurt or frightened the cat that bit me...and I 
modify my behavior immediately.  Yes, cat bites, like any carnivore bite, can
be nasty and very painful...however, I'm not afraid of being bitten...I know
it comes with the territory of handling cats - and in the case of rescue
cases, some of the cats are hurt, hungry and terrified and will bite.  If a
judge is honestly shy enough of a cat that he/she feels she must handle the
animal roughly in order to "control" it, then the judge may need some gentle
encouragement to approach the cat another way.  Isn't there training on this
kind of thing for judges?  If not, perhaps you guys out there who are involved
in cat clubs might try and get a training class going for your local judges...
it sounds necessary if they are stetching, pulling and otherwise yanking
the cats around.  It will prevent bites, too....that might convince the judges
to come around and learn something.
255.16XNOGOV::LISAGive quiche a chanceThu Apr 16 1992 05:406
    At least you get to see the judging in the USA. In the UK we have to
    wait outside!
    
    Lisa.     
    
    
255.17Tales from the benchCGOOA::LMILLERhasten slowlyThu Apr 16 1992 12:4340
    
    I've shown in both places and find pluses and minuses for both. 
    Personally, I think the UK is less stressful for the cat but more for
    the owner and the opposite is true over here.  Judging by the look on
    some owners faces here - that could be argued with!  I have to admit I
    never had a bad experience in the UK, but with only two years of
    limited showing have had a couple over here.  Once where the judge
    started "ripping" apart my cat to me in a LOUD voice so everyone could
    hear.  (The same show a judge was interested in buying my cat!).  The
    other was when my cat sunk her teeth in to a judge after some rough
    handling and look at me to say "look ma - no more showing for me -
    eh!".  She actually just held on to the judge's hand - didn't break the
    skin - but I had to extricate her.  Even worse - I knew the judge
    personally AND she is a breeder of my type of cat. 
    
    Now I never show or take my cat to the ring where that first judge is
    judging. 
    
    On the lighter side, I had a very prominent judge take my kitten out of
    the cage - look at her - peer closely at her face. Mark his sheet. 
    Then walk over to the clerk and say something.  Fine.  I did get called
    back for the final - when he took my kitten out - he explained that when
    he first saw her - he thought she was a terrible example of an American
    Silver Tabby - but he looked again at his sheet and saw she was a
    British Silver Tabby!  He then had to check there was such a colour
    allowed!  At least he admitted it - there were at least two other
    judges who made the same error at that show.
      
    It didn't help that she was caged next to three American silver kittens
    and she was the only British there!
    
    So you win and you lose some - just don't show under a judge who mis-
    handles your feline - it was hard for me to do that but I have once and
    I will continue to do so until their are no judges left if necessary.
    
    Linda
    
  
    
255.18You guys are WONDERFUL!GRANPA::CCOLEMANThu Apr 16 1992 13:2819
    This is great feedback I'm getting! I have to agree with the consensus
    -- don't have the judge 'judge' my cat again. ANd I'm going to write a
    letter -- I 'may' ask some of you who are more 'seasoned' at showing to
    take a look at it and see if it is pretty un-emotional.
    
    And starting in 2 weeks, I'll be showing 2 Korat kittens, and really
    don't want either one to be man-handled again. Well, since there's 2 of
    them, they may actually have to judge which one is better than the
    other, and will pay more attention. I'm really going to start watching
    judges' judging styles from now on.
    
    As for showing persians as a solution -- believe me, I've considered it
    in ADDITION to the Korats! Are there any persians considered to be a
    minority? (Korats are considered a minority breed -- FYI)
    
    Thanks again EVERYONE!!!!
    Cheryl
    (Charlie, Shanti, Gracie, P.A. and soon to be a new member, Robbie)
    
255.19Persians are exhibitors heavenMUTTON::BROWNThu Apr 16 1992 14:5319
    Yep, there are Persians that are minorities...shaded division, tabby 
    division (in some areas), and certain colors, and then there are always 
    Exotics to consider. :')  They are so laid back and they don't even seem 
    to mind it when the judges have to stick their fingers in their "breaks".  
    That would drive me nuts to have judges constantly sticking their fingers 
    in my face. :')
    
    Talk about embarrassing...
    
    When my cat bit that judge, the judge he bit was a friend, and the
    breeder of my cat was another judge officiating at the same show, which
    happened to be my club's show, and my husband and I just happened to be
    co-show managers of it.  It couldn't have been more badly time if we
    had tried to plan it!! ;')  The news spread like wildfire through the
    cat fancy grapevine.  I was actually told the story by someone I did
    not know at another show (course I didn't let on that it was me!!).
    
    Jo
    
255.20what happens when....NQOAIC::MACDONALDdirt, dry bones, sand and stoneThu Apr 16 1992 15:539
    
    When a cat bites a judge at a show what happens?  Is the owner liable
    or is it just chalked up to hazard of the job?  Is a cat excused form
    the ring for such behavior and is it still allowed to be judged in the
    other rings?  Guess I should get a copy of the rules but there seems to 
    be som much more depth to the info in NOTES.
    
    Thanks!
    MaryAnne
255.21insurance covers itMUTTON::BROWNThu Apr 16 1992 15:5711
    When a cat bites a judge, if the owner doesn't have the sense to "pull"
    the cat from the rest of the judging, there is a show rule that each
    judge must be notified which cat bit which judge.  That way they can
    just refuse to handle that cat if they wish.
    
    CFA clubs must have $1M in insurance to cover all the little things
    that might happen at a show.  In the case of the judge my cat bit, our
    insurance must have covered her emergency room visit since the club
    never received a bill.  
    
    Jo
255.22AYRPLN::TAYLORMake the world your playground.Thu Apr 16 1992 16:2911
In CFF, if a cat bites a judge, I believe that the wins are witheld from
the cat.  This means that the cat is ineligible for competition in that
ring.  Also, all of the other judges MUST be told that one judge was bitten
(as Jo said, IF the owner is crazy enough to continue to show the cat).

If your wins are withheld four times (doesn't have to be in the same
show!  Can be ANY shows!) then the cat is ineligible for competition,
completely!  Other reasons for withholding wins on a cat is that the
cat doesn't meet the standards, has a tail kink, etc.

Holly
255.23MUTTON::BROWNThu Apr 16 1992 17:014
    In CFA, any points that a cat that has bitten a judge earned in that
    show prior to the incident are not voided.
    
    Jo
255.24Void? Did someone say void?VORTEX::DSSDEV::TAMIRDECforms RoadieThu Apr 16 1992 17:054
    What if the cat voids on the judge????
    
    YUK YUK YUK....looks like that valium is kicking in......
    
255.25Darn cat just "voided" againMUTTON::BROWNThu Apr 16 1992 17:245
    That is the responsibility of the owner!! :')  Being the owner of a
    whole male cat that sprays occassionally in the judging rings, I know
    all about cleaning up voids. ;^P
    
    Jo
255.26AYRPLN::TAYLORTake some time to eat the flowers ...Fri Apr 17 1992 10:484
Jo, in CFF the wins that the cat gets in the SHOW aren't voided.  The cat
is just ineligible for competition in that ring if the cat bites the judge.

Holly
255.27UpdateGRANPA::CCOLEMANMeow Angelo paints Hisstine ChapelMon May 18 1992 13:2529
This is just an update to the judge I had in question.

At this point, I'm not going to write anything. However, this
weekend was very enlightening.

I was talking with the Chartreux breeder, and telling her about
P.A.'s experience, but never mentioned the name. Then she goes
to tell me: "The only judge I know that does that is "(fill in
name here)". I was SHOCKED!

Then, I was in a ring, and of course P.A. is kicking and 
screaming. I'm walking back to the chairs, shaking my head at
the Japanese Bobtail breeder. She asks what happened, cause she
remembered her not being like this. Again, I give her a brief
summary of what happened, not mentioning a name. She tells me:
"That happened to one of my best Bobtails one time. "(Fill in
name here)" He flung her up 3 or 4 times, and she totally
freaked! It took me over a month to get her okay again! And
then he almost dropped her!" Do I need to tell you who she
said it was??? I feel better that I'm not the only one, but I
feel horrible that NO ONE has said ANYTHING after all these
years! I'm sure it is extremely political, but if a big majority 
of people did this, I don't see how it would affect anyone.

Well, just wanted to give an update. Needless to say, I'm avoiding
going to any shows where that judge is present. I'm only going to
miss one local show, so I feel that's pretty good!

Cheryl
255.28OXNARD::KOLLINGKaren/Sweetie/Holly/Little Bit Ca.Mon May 18 1992 13:384
    I'm extremely puzzled by your note.  How does anyone expect this
    problem to be fixed if no one brings it to the attention of the
    organization?
    
255.29I'm not done yet....GRANPA::CCOLEMANMeow Angelo paints Hisstine ChapelMon May 18 1992 13:5319
    I haven't brought it to anyone's attention -- yet. I don't consider
    myself an 'exceptional' writer, and sometimes what I say gets
    misinterpreted. A good example is this notes file -- sometimes people
    are trying to express one thing on a terminal, what they could better
    express in person. My husband has talked with Don Williams, the
    President of CFA at one of the shows. He was, to say the least,
    appalled that a judge would lift a Korat like this judge did. He said
    that a good just KNOWS his breeds, and a Korat is one you just don't do
    that to! From what my husband gathered, there may be some changes made,
    but Don sounded like he really didn't want to talk about it. But
    believe me, I will report this incident to the right channels. I just
    wish that OTHERS who have experienced this as well would do this too!
    What I'M appalled about, is this judge did this to these other peoples
    cats YEARS ago, and no one has said anything YET! But I guarantee that
    I will be writing something within the next few months. I keep writing,
    re-writing, restarting, etc. I need the most PRECISE words, so I don't
    sound like I'm whining.
    
    
255.30Tell them the truth....LynneBOOVX2::MANDILEEngage brain before opening mouthMon May 18 1992 17:0923
    Dear so-and-so:
    
    This letter is to inform you of an experience my cat and 
    I encountered while participating in your show on
    DAYMONTHYEAR.  After placing my cat in the cage to be
    judged, I watched with horror and amazement as the judge 
    proceeded to mishandle my cat by tossing her around, flinging 
    her up and down, and roughly putting her back in her cage.   
    I hope the lack of professionalism this Judge presented  
    to myself, the other exhibitors and to any visitors present, 
    is not a representitive of what can be expected during participation 
    at your show(s).  The long lasting repercussions this mishandling 
    is having on my cat has led me to contact you in this manner, as due 
    to this rough handling, my cat has become soured towards showing. 
    
    Please be aware that any future shows you have with the above judge
    will mean my non-participation.  This is unfortunate, but, alas, a
    necessary evil.
    
    
    Regards,
    
    C.C.
255.31OXNARD::KOLLINGKaren/Sweetie/Holly/Little Bit Ca.Mon May 18 1992 17:153
    I'd add that other exhibiters have mentioned similar experiences to
    you.  Yes, it's hearsay, but it's also important.
    
255.32No time like the present!32FAR::DLEVINTue May 19 1992 14:4614
     re: .29
    
    I wouldn't wait a few months to write....it's already almost two months
    after the show..... Your letter will have less impact and could be
    perceived as invalid.  The sooner you write and state what happened the
    better.  The sample letter is .30 is very good.  I'd also suggest
    writing only one letter and copying in everyone, instead of writing
    multiple letters.  That way the list of people that Jo mentioned
    previously get the same message at the same time.  Of course that means
    adding the appropriate cc: to the bottom of the letter.
    
    Go for it!
    -Diane
    
255.33All on film....GRANPA::CCOLEMANI love Korats!Mon Aug 10 1992 16:0033
    My husband and I just recently bought a video camera. I came up with
    the idea of videotaping the cats in each ring, to see how they behave,
    and so if the way the judge handles them, gives them bad behavior
    (remember, I'm the one that had the cat that was (not to be accusing,
    IMO) 'tossed' into her cage).
    
    Anyhow, we taped all 8 rings this past weekend and made some very
    subtle discoveries!
    
    You know when a judge takes a cat out of the cage, looks at it for
    specific breed characteristics, judges it against the other, then
    places ribbons? Well, would you say it takes longer than 5 seconds?
    What about 10? We timed one of the judges this past weekend, from the
    time he set Robbie on the table to the time he went to take him back --
    5 seconds -- and he rolled his eyes as he was taking him back. P.A.
    lasted a little longer -- 8 seconds. You mean to tell me that this
    judge SERIOUSLY looked at my cats? Now that I have this on tape, I have
    full proof EVIDENCE on how my cats are NOT being given the same
    treatment as other cats! 
    
    I will not give the judges name -- but the other judges actually did
    look at my cats -- the face structure -- body feel, etc. This 5 second
    judge stroked them twice, looked at their face, and back in the cage.
    My cats DO meet the standards, and did very well as kittens. Granted,
    they are still immature and have not come into their full 'maturity',
    but all I'm asking for is the SAME treatment that he gives the other
    breeds!
    
    Now, I'm stepping off my soapbox, putting the soap BACK into it, and
    sitting back down. Didn't mean to go off like that, but it really
    disappoints me that people are like that!
    
    Cheryl
255.34MUTTON::BROWNeverybody run Prom Queen's Gotta Gun!Mon Aug 10 1992 17:446
    I have had that happen to my cats from time to time.  I usually
    interpret it to mean that that particular judge doesn't care for the
    "style" of my Birmans.  That's his problem.  There are lots of other
    judges who do. :')
    
    Jo
255.35Different point I never thought of...GRANPA::CCOLEMANI love Korats!Tue Aug 11 1992 08:5711
    I never looked at it from 'that' viewpoint before! That would make me
    feel better!
    
    I just appreciate when I judge honestly looks at the cat. I've seen an
    average of 30-45 seconds per cat. I hate to pull my cat from a ring,
    but why put them through the stress if he's not going to look at him.
    Anyhow, it's 2 less cats he'll get paid to look at....
    
    Thanks Jo! 
    
    Cheryl
255.36How timely of _Cat Fancy_!JULIET::CANTONI_MIThat really ghasts my flabber!Tue Aug 11 1992 13:3736
    You may have a valid point about certain judges not giving your kitty a
    fair shake; I have no idea about this as I haven't shown any kitties or
    even been to that many shows.  But, here's an excerpt from an article
    in the September _Cat Fancy_ I just received.
    
    _What the Judges Look For_ by Glynis McCartney, specialty judge with
                                                    TICA
    
    "...The judge puts the kitten on the table, picks it up again, then
    immediately puts it back in its cage.
       I've often sat beside new exhibitors and heard them exclaim, "He
    never even looked at Kitty!"  Yet I saw something different.  I watched
    the judge's hands as he lifted the kitten from its cage to the judging
    table, where he handled the kitten, and I watched his face.  Add to
    that the appearance of the kitten, and I saw much judging happening.
       A judge is trained to evaluate a cat in more ways than just touching
    it as it stands on the judging table.  When he reaches into the cage to
    bring out your kitten, he already has begun going over your little one. 
    He sees if the kitten is crouching in a corner of the judging cage, is
    having trouble moving or is favoring any part of its body.  The judge
    notices if the kitten is lively, active and interested in its
    surroundings.  Such qualities indicate a healthy, happy cat.
       As the judge slips his hand under your kitten, he immediately
    notices if its weight is appropriate for its breed, age and size.  If
    the kitten is extremely over- or underweight, the judging already may
    be nearly completed. ...."
    
    Anyway, I don't want to go on and on with this, since I don't have
    permission to reprint the article. :^)  To make a long story short, the
    judge begins evaluating a cat or kitten from the moment s/he approaches
    the cage.  The article also says that if the judge has already deducted
    more points than the cat needed for a win, the judge will hurry so that
    the cat/kitten will not be handled excessively.
    
    Hope this helps,
    Michelle