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Conference misery::feline

Title:Meower Power - Where Differing Opinions are Respected
Notice:purrrrr...
Moderator:JULIET::CORDES_JA
Created:Wed Nov 13 1991
Last Modified:Fri Jun 06 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:1079
Total number of notes:28858

228.0. "FELV Vaccine" by MAYES::MERRITT () Tue Mar 24 1992 12:10

    I would appreciate your opinins (or your vets) on the subject
    of the Felv Vaccine.  I have been doing some research to help
    me make a decision as to whether I should have my cats vaccinated..
    and believe it or not the more I read or talk to vets...the
    more conflicting messages I hear and get more confused.  I realize
    by asking these questions to you...I'll even hear more conflicting
    messages...but I do want as much information as possible before
    I make a decision.
    
     o What is the percent of Safeness the vaccine gives your cats?
    
        My vet says about 40%.   Another vet I spoke to says about 
        85% and when I spoke to Tufts they said only Good to Moderate
        protection.
    
     o  Is it true that a cat can be harboring the virus...but test 
        negative.  How would the vaccine affect them?  Would it bring
        out the disease?
    
     o  Are there any negative side effects to this vaccine??  Has the
        vaccine been around long enough to ensure there are no long
        term side effects?   
    
    Any info or opinions you are willing to share would greatly be
    appreciated.   I did read the article/study Jo documented in the 
    notesfile...but again each study comes up with different results 
    which is even more confusing!!   
    
    Thanks...Sandy
    
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228.1MUTTON::BROWNTue Mar 24 1992 12:4023
    I am not sure if we can help you with this Sandy.  If the experts don't
    agree on this issue, how can those of us that are not "experts" give
    you any more info than they can?
    
    Basically, if your cats are going outside, they should have FeLV
    vaccinations since some degree of protection is better than no
    protection.
    
    Yes, a cat can be harboring the disease but still test negative for the
    virus.  The virus can "hide out" in the bone marrow from what I
    understand.  Stress can bring that virus out of hiding.
    
    I believe I have read that a cat can only infect other cats if the
    virus is circulating in the body (not hiding in the bone marrow).  If
    this is true, then a cat that tests negative is not a threat to other
    cats.
    
    I do not vaccinate my cats or kittens for FeLV since they are not going
    outside.  That is my choice.  If my cats were going outside, I would be
    the first in line at the vet's to get them the vaccine.  Some
    protection is better than none, in my opinion.
    
    Jo
228.2OXNARD::KOLLINGKaren/Sweetie/Holly/Little Bit Ca.Tue Mar 24 1992 14:2410
    On the other hand, I do have my cats vacinated for it, since I lost a
    cat who had been indoors only for 8 years to it.  He had
    close contact via nose touchings at the screen door with a neighbor's
    cat who died of it.  Note that it will likely put your cats "under the
    weather" for 12 to 24 hrs after the shot.  If they are lethargic for
    longer than that, a stop at the vet's is in order.  I also wait in the
    vet's office for 20 minutes after the shots to be sure they aren't
    going into shock from the shot, although the vet says that is so rare
    that this isn't necessary.
    
228.3XCUSME::KENDRICKTue Mar 24 1992 14:4213
    I'm in the same boat as .1.  All my cats were tested for the virus
    before being adopted and all tested negative.  Since they are indoor
    only and we live on the second floor so the chance of nose touching with
    other cats through window or door screens is nil, I chose to not have
    them vaccinated.  This was on the recommendation of my vet who knows
    their living arrangements, coupled with the fact the vaccine is not
    100% and is very expensive.
    
    If my cats went outside, however, I wouldn't hesitate to vaccinate
    them.
    
    Terry + 4
    
228.4MAYES::MERRITTTue Mar 24 1992 14:5418
    I realize that there are no correct answers...but I find it
    frustrating that all the studies that have been done come up
    with total different results.  If the range of Safeness was closer...
    I wouldn't even be questioning the vaccine....but when it ranges
    from 40% - 95% I find it hard to believe if the same vaccine was
    tested...how could the results be so different and do I want to
    trust this vaccine.
    
    I have also heard (from vets) that you might as well give the cat
    a shot of water because that is about how good the vaccine is and
    then I hear stories (not sure if they are true)...that cats have
    tested positive and died from FELV after having the vaccine.
    
    So...before I pay the expense to have about 15 cats vaccinated..
    (my sisters and mine)...I am trying to gain more knowledge, determine
    the facts from the myths, and get rid of my fears of the vaccine. 
    
    Sandy
228.5Worth the price for outdoor catsMUTTON::BROWNTue Mar 24 1992 16:2426
    There are different brands of vaccines.  The test results that I posted
    in note 29 were from an independent study, and it compared the
    different brands of Leukemia vaccines.  One thing that has to be
    considered when reviewing test data is who is doing the test?  The
    manufacturer? Or an outside company that has nothing to gain or lose
    based on the test results.
    
    The vaccine cannot give a cat the disease.  It is a killed virus
    vaccine not a modified live one.  Cats that end up positive after
    vaccination were probably latent carriers or did contract the disease
    after vaccination.  The vaccine itself is considered very safe now.  As
    with any vaccine though, there is a certain degree of risk of
    anaphylactic shock or other reaction immediately after injection. 
    Also, some cats may become lethargic and feverish for a few hours after
    vaccination.  These risks are minimal compared to the risk of
    contracting FeLV outdoors.
    
    The expense is great if you are doing that many cats.  But, there are
    shot clinics that do the FeLV shots at reduced prices.  You would have 
    to have all the cats tested first, which would be the greatest expense. 
    Some of the shot clinics also offer reduced cost testing too.  Check
    around. 
    
    Jo
    
    
228.6Here's MY experience.....DELNI::JMCDONOUGHWed Mar 25 1992 09:4352
       I can tell you some things from experience....
    
       (1)Yes---a cat CAN have the virus and test negative. I had one. She
    tested negative from the first time we had her tested, was vaccinated
    every year, tested negative every year, and died from the disease in
    her fourth year within a week---from FeLV!! Both our Vet and the head
    of the hospital at Tufts--who I spoke to at length--suspect that the
    virus MAY have been present in her bone marrow, passed to her from her
    mother. 
    
      (2)Can a cat test POSITIVE yet never get the disease?? Emphatically
    YES again. We have had two that were in this category. One lived until
    an estimated 18 years---estimated because we sort of pegged her age at
    around 10-12 when we picked her up after she was abandoned, and she
    lived with us in perfect health for 8 years. She tested Positive every
    year for the first 3 years we had her and we stopped having the tests
    My present "special" girl, "Cookie", tested Positive when she was a
    kitten, and we had her tested once since--agains Positive. Cook's about
    4 now, and is healthy as a horse...and that reminds me, we gotta slack
    her off on the chow...she's getting a tummy-roll...
    
      (3)How good is the vaccine?? Unknown. The numbers that I've heard are
    between 60 and 90 percent effective...but there haven't really been any
    comprehensive test programs done on it. What HAS been proven is that if
    a cat is vaccinated and the vaccine DOES react within the cat's immune
    system as it should, then that cat WILL NOT contract the disease from
    contact with an infected cat. However, the only way to PROVE this
    effectiveness is to make the contact...and the problem here is pretty
    obvious and drastic: If the immunization did NOT act as planned, then
    the vaccinated cat will contract the disease.
    
      (4)What about positive tested animals? Some new and fairly
    encouraging information has become known in recent years. It's a fact
    that a cat that is a positive tester will NOT be harmed in any way if
    they are vaccinated. In fact, there have been more than a few cases
    that have been documented on Positives that have been immunized and
    they've tested NEGATIVE after the immunization!! The thought here is
    that the vaccine MAY be triggering the animal's immune system to
    REJECT and for antibodies against the virus!! 
    
      So...what we now do is FOREGO the test completely...and save the $20
    to $30 bucks that the test costs. Instead, we simply have ALL of our
    cats immunized each year. So far---with 2 Positives living with 3
    Negatives(Last tests were done 3 years ago, and one cat DID die of old
    age since then...), we've had no problems. Are we 100% SURE that it
    will NEVER happen?? Not on your life!! But we are willing to take the
    chance since the cats we have are happy, healthy and
    active...(Sometimes to the point where I've threatened to look for a
    shoe at 3:00 in the morning--but I settle for the water-squirt
    bottle...)
    
      John McD
228.7TalaGEMINI::NICKERSONWed Mar 25 1992 14:1931
    HI Sandy,
    
    The previous note said the same but here goes:
    
    I had a beautiful calico - Tala (the name is the standard unit of
    currency in Western Samoa - perfect for a "money" cat).  I had both
    Tala and my other cat tested - they both were negative.  They got the
    shots.  Three years later Tala died from Feleuk.  My vet said that she
    may have just contracted the disease at the time of the test and that's
    why she tested negative.  It was about a month from the date of
    diagnoses (sp?) until we had to have her put to sleep.  I wanted her to
    die at home where she was happy but it reached the point where she was
    laying on my kitchen chair and wouldn't move.  She became incontinent
    so what I did was put a sheet of plastic on the chair and cover that
    with a nice soft towel.  Every couple of hours I would prepare a
    similar chair in this fashion, move her to that and clean the other
    chair.  She would begin yowling in the middle of the night and I would
    have to go out and comfort her.  It got to the point where I was a
    basket case (I had a newborn son at the time also!) so we took her to
    the vet.  He was wonderful and she died in my arms.  We brought her
    home and buried her.
    
    I don't care how effective the Feleuk shots are - if they offer ANY
    degree of safety I won't hesitate to get them.  Both my present cats
    are vaccinated.  I know they're costly.  Sometimes vets will give "group
    rates" for a large number of animals...
    
    Good luck, sorry for the sad tale, I just don't want to see another cat
    go through what my Tala did.
    
    Linda
228.8RIPPLE::KENNEDY_KAThu Mar 26 1992 00:3613
    None of my cats have had the shots.  Mine are also indoor cats without
    exposure to other cats.  Finances are so tight I haven't been able to
    afford getting them tested so I don't know if they are positive or not. 
    I do know that everytime I take one to the vet he gives me a hassle
    about it.  I'm very aware of the consequences.
    
    When I was breeding Cleo, I did have her tested for FeLV, FIP and FIA
    (the feline infectious anemia) and all tests came back negative.
    
    Jo, thank you for writing what you did.  I've bought the guilt my vet
    keeps throwing at me.  I can let go of that guilt now.  :-)
    
    Karen
228.9...GEMINI::NICKERSONThu Mar 26 1992 10:5011
    If you have exclusively indoor cats then it should be YOUR decision if
    you want the vaccine.  My vet has never put any pressure on me either
    way.  I started getting the Felv shots for my cats because my friends
    cat had the disease and she told me how he died.  Since my cats WERE
    outdoor cats, I decided to get the shots.  
    
    Vets (and people doctors too) have no right to "lay a guilt trip" on
    someone because they don't go along with the drs. recommendation. 
    Their job is to INFORM not CONDEMN!
    
    Linda
228.10It's not a matter of "guilt trip"!!!DELNI::JMCDONOUGHThu Mar 26 1992 11:3733
      Re last few..
      
      I guess I have to agree with the vets, and understand things from
    THEIR perspective. While it is a horrible experience to have to put one
    of your pets to sleep, the Vet has to face that experience on a daily
    basis. SUre, some vets are so 'jaded' from doing this hundreds snd
    hundreds of times, that ehy seem to have lost some of their
    sensitivity. However, I wouldn't personally WANT a Vet who can simply
    kill without feelings. Mine sure isn't that way! Every time I've taken
    one of my pets in to have it euthanized, the entire office--Vet,
    technicians, receptionist----are ALL in tears. 
    
      While I AGREE that it is the personal choice of the owner, I also
    think the owner MUST understand the consequences of their actions. I am
    at a loss to understand what difference it makes if all the cats are
    indoor only?? Mine are all indoor only. My cat that tested Negative and
    DIED from the disease was indoor only....but thank GOD I had all of my
    others vaccinated at the time,and from the 100% survival of these
    others, thevaccine must have worked on them. If a cat in a pack of 8 or
    10 NON-Vaccinated animals contracts the disease, then there is about a
    99% probability that all of the others in that pack will also contract
    it. Of course, there ARE those cats who have a NATURAL immunization to
    the disease, and those would survive...but I sure wouldn't want to bet
    on which ones they are.
    
      I think the point here and from talking to the various vets is that
    NOBODY KNOWS how this disease is spread. It IS spread by contact with
    mucous and fecal matter, but there is NO guarantee that this is the
    ONLY way it's spread. Nobody has stated in ANY way that it cannot be
    spread via 'aerosol'...I.E. via air.... I sure wouldn't want to chance
    not having mine vaccinated....
    
    John McD 
228.11MUTTON::BROWNThu Mar 26 1992 12:1819
    Actually John, there are quite a few writings about FeLV that do state
    that it is not spread by aerosol transmissions.  It is also known that
    the disease is not stable in a dry environment, or outside the host. 
    It is also known that the virus can be killed by a solution of bleach
    water (1:32) or by Nolvasan or Roccal D disinfectant.
    
    The disease is transmitted through blood, urine, feces and saliva.  If
    your cat is not sharing these things with other cats, and your cats
    have tested negative for FeLV, then you can be reasonably sure that
    they will not get it.
    
    If it comes down to a matter of who's the most at risk to contract the
    disease and who needs to be vaccinated, I would say that any cat going
    outdoors should be vaccinated.  As to whether or not indoor only cats
    need to be vaccinated, I would think that would be at the owner's
    discretion.  Nobody deserves to have a guilt trip laid on them about
    this, whether that trip comes from the vets or from this notesfile.
    
    Jo
228.12OXNARD::KOLLINGKaren/Sweetie/Holly/Little Bit Ca.Thu Mar 26 1992 13:365
    John's note reminds me of a friend of mine who lost a cat to
    FeLV a few years ago, and then, like dominos all the rest of her five
    cats to it over the next some months or so.  This was before a
    vaccine existed.
    
228.13Please explain my 2 dead "indoor only's"??DELNI::JMCDONOUGHThu Mar 26 1992 13:3828
      Re .11
      
      I can only relate what has been told to me by vets and the folks at
    tufts...and while the THINK that it is not transmitted by aerosol, the
    Tufts people were very careful NOT to state that this is certain. Lab
    tests haven't shown that it CAN be transmitted that way, but labs is
    labs.
    
      I have NEVER allowed my cats to roam around outside, and they are
    watched very carefully to make sure they do not escape. Threrfore I
    would consider them to be "indoor only". I used to test them---and have
    LOST TWO OF these "indoor only" "Negative-tested" cats to FeLV!!! This
    is a FACT!! Both of these cats DID contract the disease, and they died
    from it. Neither had ANY contact with other cats at any time, in any
    way. 
    
      I think it is pretty narrow-minded to accuse someone of laying a guilt
    trip on anyone for relating experiences and stating facts. I personally
    believe that most "guilt trips" are self-imposed anyway. If people want
    to ignore experiences of others and/or expert advise of a trained
    Veterinarian, and then impose a guilt trip on themselves, then that
    would seem to be THEIR problem. Would it be better to tell them some
    sort of happy tale that is NOT the facts and when their cat(s) contract
    a dreaded thng such as this disease accept the guilt of NOT having told
    the truth??? Sorry!! It is THEIR prerogative to do as they wish, but
    let's not down-play the possible consequences...
    
    John Mc
228.14MUTTON::BROWNThu Mar 26 1992 13:5012
    In the case of the indoor only cats that died of FeLV, the vaccine
    wouldn't have saved them.  Most likely scenario is that they were
    latently infected, and therefore tested negative.  The vaccine wouldn't
    have prevented them from reverting to postive.  But, you are right, it
    may have protected your other cats from infection.
    
    The point is, each person decides what is best for his or her cat(s)
    based on their own situation and the information available.  This
    notesfile is not a substitute for the literature available on the
    subject, or the advise of a good veterinarian.
    
    Jo
228.15keep them together?SMURF::STRANGESteve Strange - UEGThu May 28 1992 01:2828
    Hi there!  I am seeking advice regarding feline leukemia.  Recently, I
    adopted two kittens from the pound, from different litters.  One is
    positive FeLuk.  The other has tested negative, and they were separated
    while the negative one received her vaccine FeLuk vaccine series. 
    After much debate, we have decided to let them be together--we figure
    they will be much happier together than apart, and will keep each other
    thoroughly exercised.  (When they were apart, they would cry for each
    other, and try to get to each other all the time--it was rather sad). 
    I have read many stories about positive/negative households being
    perfectly fine for years and years, but I have some questions.  First
    of all, generally speaking, does any one with a FeLuk cat, or one who
    reverted to negative, have any suggestions about health maintenance and
    improvement, i.e., diet, etc.?  My (ex) vet gave me little hope of
    reverting the positive sweetie to negative, and would offer no advice
    about bolstering her immune system.  I know we can help the cat.  My
    second question relates to the two of them.  Does anybody have any
    suggestions for making the situation optimal?  Should they try to use
    separate litter boxes and feeding dishes?  Should they be separated
    part of the time?  Should I feel guilty for letting them be together? 
    Also, I need to find a decent vet, one who is compassionate.  Does any
    one know of a really good vet (price does not matter) in the greater
    Boston area?  If anyone is reading, I would really appreciate hearing
    from you, because I have been at my wit's end with worry.

Thanks a bunch!

Steve
    
228.16MAGEE::MERRITTThu May 28 1992 09:0917
    Steve,
    
    Our shelter houses about 15 Feluk cats...and many of them have
    been there for years and are very healthy.   A few key points we
    follow at the shelter is to feed them the good healthy
    foods (Science Diet or Iams) and as soon as one sneezes they are 
    brought to the vets and put on medicine right away.  Also...please
    keep them as inside cats...so the Feluk  is not passed further.
    
    Your decision to separate them or keep them together is a tough one,
    but there are noters in this file that have positive/negative cats
    living together for years!!   Tough Decision.....
    
    Best wishes for the little guys!!!
    
    Sandy 
      
228.17OXNARD::KOLLINGKaren/Sweetie/Holly/Little Bit Ca.Thu May 28 1992 14:035
    I'm glad you're keeping both.  My uneducated guess is that the
    negative one has already been exposed anyway.   Lots of love,
    good food, and good vet care is my recipe.  Please keep us up to date
    on their health, antics, etc.
    
228.18OXNARD::KOLLINGKaren/Sweetie/Holly/Little Bit Ca.Thu May 28 1992 14:044
    I have the dim recollection that there is some thought that the
    innoculations might help revert a cat to negative;  but I'd check with
    a good vet.
    
228.19my experiencePARITY::DENISEAnd may the traffic be with youThu May 28 1992 17:1913
      When the disease hit my house years ago and took 3 of my then 6 cats,
    it was obviously in the house for God knows how long before I realized
    it.  Three of the 6 never got it and are still very much healthy today.
    They have been immunized and never showed positive.  They had lived
    for over a year with the other 3 cats that did have it.  And that was
    only once it was discovered,  and they ate together,used same box, etc.
       I remember reading something about not all cats getting it even if
    exposed, some showing positive and then going negative, all kinds of 
    things.......I think it might be in the old FELINE.  
       It's good that you immunized the other kitty.  You may be lucky and
    the disease may never manifest itself, or at least not for a long time.
    
         good luck,  Denise
228.20I would do what you're doing...RLAV::BARRETTIs it safe?Fri May 29 1992 17:1522
    I also remember reading either in this conference or the old FELINE
    about someone who had had a + vaccinated, and they tested neg. later.
    
    I would do exactly as you are doing, Steve.  I fought with this when I
    was going to adopt a stray from our shelter.  She turned out to be +,
    and i decided not to expose my 2 to it.  The stray was destroyed later
    that week, and I still feel guilty.  She was one of the sweetest cats
    you'd ever want to meet.
    
    Also, as you or someone else pointed out, the neg. one of yours has
    probably already been exposed anyways.
    
    And I think I remember seeing something in the old file about a vet at
    Tufts doing research on this?  At any rate, if I were you, I would try
    calling Tufts for help/advice.  Also, somewhere in this file is a "help
    line" number for Cornell.  You could try that also (it costs for the
    phone call).
    
    Best of luck to you.  I think what you are doing for these two is
    great!  Please let us know how it goes.
    
    Sue B. + 3
228.21MUTTON::BROWNset home/cat_max=5 girls 2 boys 2 hhpsMon Jun 15 1992 23:123
    You can also check out the FeLV info in topic 29, the medical topic.
    
    Jo
228.22Chance of leukiemia, after innoculations?AIMHI::BOYKOWed Mar 16 1994 11:1821
    Is it possible for my cat to have leukiemia, if she had been
    innoculated for this since she was a kitten, and does not go outside
    at all ?  My cat Tasha, is a Lynx point siamese, that has been vomiting
    lately with a fever of 103.  She has been to 2 vets, and blood work was
    done yesterday, for a leukiemia test, that the doctor said the blood
    cells look suspicious.  She had been on laxatone, and an antibiotic
    for a week.  Eating and drinking ok now.  The doctor also gave her an
    injection to force eating to see if she would keep it down.  She did.
    Xrays of her lungs were ok - no signs of phnemonia.  Barium xrays of
    small intestine and large intestine done as well.  Just found the food
    took a lot longer to pass from sm. intestine to large as it should. 
    
    Waiting now to hear more about the blood test, and the vet sent it out
    for further examination.
    
    (All my cats have had a the injections that are possible for them since
     they were kittens.)
    
    Thanks,
    Nancy
    
228.23MAGEE::MERRITTKitty CityWed Mar 16 1994 12:0615
    Nancy...here's hugs to you and your kitty for a speedy recovery!!
    
    From a survey I did about two years ago regarding the Felv Vaccine, 
    I found that depending on which vet I spoke to each one had their 
    own opinion on how effective the vaccine really was.   The answers I
    received at that time was  40%, 70%, 80% and 95%!!! (that was two years
    ago...so my guess it's effectiveness must be better now).
    
    In conclusion...I do believe the vaccine is effective..but I also
    feel it is not 100% effective. This is my opinion..and I'm sure some
    opinions will differ.    Let's hope your kitty has something
    else....please keep us posted.
    
    Sandy
    
228.24MR4DEC::PGLADDINGNoters do it with a 8-)Wed Mar 16 1994 12:1119
    Sorry to hear about your poor kitty being sick.  The leukemia shot
    is not 100% effective against the disease, and there is a wide range
    of opinions from 40-80% among vets.
    
    I find it hard to believe your kitty has contracted the disease
    since she's been indoor only since a kitten and the chance of her
    being exposed to a Leuk-positive cat was minimal.  Even if two cats
    have been exposed, it would take a lot more intimate contact to 
    catch the disease.
    
    Do you have other cats in your household?  Have they been tested
    for Leukemia?  Some cats are carriers and never show symptoms, but
    can pass on the disease.
    
    I hope your doctor's preliminary findings are wrong and that Tasha
    gets well soon!  If in doubt, it's always best to get a second opinion.
    
    Good luck,
    Pam
228.252 other catsAIMHI::BOYKOWed Mar 16 1994 12:2311
    Thanks, Pam.  Yes I do have another cat Chelsea that is 9 years old
    and has been tested right along for leukemia-neg., and kept up for
    yearly shots.  I am concerned for a new kitten that is a blue point
    male Himalayan that I recently bought from a breeder.  The parents
    were neg., but because of him being only 4 months old, the test would
    not be valid right now.  But "Niles" has had 1 shot and the next
    leukemia shot next week, series of three to start, then yearly shots.
    Hope Tasha gets better, as none of my cats go outside, I really don't
    see how this could have happened.
    Thanks,