Conference misery::feline

      There are a number of food supplements that are formulated to help
    with the quality of the coats--for both cats & dogs by the way. Most
    pet supply catalogs list various brands. I think "Linatone" makes a
    feline version as well as their canine version. 
    
      I'd make sure it's a formulation designed specifically for cats
    though, since their dietary requirements are sort of specific.
    
      As for the other item....I feed "Brewers Yeast" tablets to my dogs
    all year long. Brewers yeast contains various vitamins and minerals,
    and is a fine supplement to help coats and general well being. It coems
    also in a powder that can be mixed with their food if need be. Although
    MOST Vets would "pooh! pooh!" the theory if you asked them, there is a
    very well known theory that the vitamin B-2 in the Brewers Yeast reacts
    within the animal to form a natural repellent that keeps fleas away. I
    personally believe tat this is true, simply because we have had
    extremely little flea problems since we began to use them. You can also
    buy brewers yeast & garlic pills. 
    
      My pups LOVE the stuff....all we do is say "Cookie Pills!!" and there
    are 11 eager little mouths waiting to chomp down a few of them. 
    
      Garlic in itself is good for most warm-blooded animals---including
    human types. The Chinese are firm believers that if you take the
    equivalent of a clove of garlic each day you will virtually eliminate
    stomach problems such as digestive disorders and ulcers. I personally
    love the stuff...and don't believe that there is such a condition as
    "too much garlic". (Any of you garlic lovers who wants a SUPER recipe
    for chicken....send me mail off-line!!!) 
    
      When the rest of New England was having a flea disastrous summer last
    year and also this year, we had to dust our pack a grand total of one
    time each summer...in August, and we had no problems any other time. I
    guess August is a bad month, and the repellent was overwhelmed a bit.
    By the way...I also take 3-4 pills per day, and have been fishing with
    friends during the months of July and August and watched them get eaten
    alive by mosquitoes....and they could not believe that I was only
    getting a very rare and occasional bite... So...I guess I'll continue
    to believe it whatever the medical profession says about it..
    
    
     
    
    John McD

    The shelter I work at also add's a bit of brewer's yeast to
    the cat food.  Considering there are over 70 cats...and we
    have not had a really bad flea infestation...I finally believe
    it works. (took awhile to convince me of this)   We do see a flea 
    once in awhile...but with that many cats...we could have a real
    problem.
    
    Sandy

    Hair loss?  Is this a noticeable loss, i.e., you can see a bare patch
    of skin?  if so, a trip to the vet is in order.
    

      I agree with .3....if ther's a bare patch, it could be more serious.
    If it's just that you are getting some shedding, though, that's more
    normal...especially if the cat's an indoor one, since they will shed in
    hot weather and when the heat gets turned up and it's dry. 
    
      My two little girls, Stormy and Cookie, absolutely LOVE the heat, and
    they stretch out on the metal radiator covers when the heat comes
    on....and Cookie is so darned cute---she always has one front leg
    stretched out and hanging down off the radiator...
    
      JM

    
    RE:3 & 4 
            Sorry I met "sheeding", sometime I have problems finding  
            the right English definition.
    

    I thought I was really going to get away with it this year but last
    night I found fleas on my Ralph.  He was scratching quite a bit last
    week and I shampooed him.  Last night when I got home my husband
    informed me he actually seen one jump off of him.  I can feel the
    drippings behind the ears too.
    
    Anyway, I sprayed him with flea spray and as a double precaution I also
    powdered him (twice) - got to bed by midnight!  My real question here
    is two fold.  1.  Where is the old Feline file - I know they had a lot
    on fleas in there.  2.  Isn't it uncommon for fleas to be around during
    this weather?  (I'm in Marlboro, MA)
    
    Also, I've been checking Alice too but haven't found ANYTHING!  She is
    very short haired and Ralph is extremely long haired.  They also do
    avoid each other at all costs.
    
    Thanks for your help.  I really hate to see him like this and HATE
    putting him through this - he dispises baths, flea sprays, and powders
    and missed his (our) bed terribly last night!
    
    

    Old feline file is MUTTON::FELINE_V1.
    
    You might also try borax on your carpets to eliminate the flea eggs. 
    There is a discussion of how to do this somewhere in here as well.

         Please be careful mixing sprays and powders - too much flea stuff
    can have *very* bad effects on your kitty.
    
    					- Andrea

    A bit of information from my vet regarding fleas...this time of year
    they are searching for a warm spot to "hop" to, since the ground is
    getting rather cold.  She said early-late fall is the worst.  I have to
    concur with anecdotal information.  Both my dogs and cats (2 of each)
    have been flea-free until the last 2 weeks, when all 4 suddenly started
    scratching.  One dogs is highly allergic to flea saliva, and one cat is
    highly allergic to flea-killing products, so I spend a lot of time
    vacuuming, bathing, and flea-combing.  
    

    Yes, my guys have an awful flea infestation.  And since the vet
    recommended against flea powder due to Sweetie's respiratory condition,
    I'm at my wits end.  The pyrethrin(?) natural spray he recommended
    instead basically is a no-op on the cats;  I can comb off happy healthy
    fleas ten minutes after I've used it.  I bombed the house two days ago.
    combed the cats thoroughly before I let them back into the bombed/aired area,
    and I can still comb a flea or five off the cats at hourly intervals.
    Last night I resorted to leaving flea collars around in strategic places.
    I hate to see them scratching like this.
    

    How about sprinkling some garlic powder into their food?
    
    Deb

    regarding pyrethrins
    
    I used a flea dip with this stuff, and I got some fleas when combing
    for a day or two, but then they were gone.  Maybe this stuff isn't
    instantaneous.

    Deb, how much garlic do you add to their food?  (I'll have to check with
    the vet first because of Sweetie's diabetes.)
    
    I used the pyrethrin stuff 2 or 3 times over the space of that many weeks
    before I gave up on it.
    
    Thanks for the ideas.
    

    Karen,
    
    I've never done it myself becuase we've never had the problem (knock
    on wood), but I've heard that you just sprinkle a teaspoon of garlic
    powder on the food. Assuming kitty will eat it, the fleas should be gone
    in a week. However, you must continue feeding garlic powder for all of
    flea season.
    
    Good Luck,
    Deb
    
    
    P.S. I think Cat Fancy described thi method this past summer.

    Does flea powder kill fleas, or repell them?  I have one cat and one
    dog who are allergic to flea dips and sprays, but can tolerate flea
    powder.  The can doesn't make it very clear, just says "gets rid of
    fleas".  
    Sarah

Bumble Bea eats the equivalent of nearly one clove of garlic per day.
I add 3 big cloves to a 3 day supply of food, but most times it takes
her more than three days to eat it (she's small). Once in a blue moon
she'll scratch behind her ear but it looks like she is just doing
normal grooming.

The idea is to give them enough garlic that a flea can smell it emanating
from the skin. I got the idea from a flea repellant product I saw in
the natural foods supermarket in Manchester, NH. The main ingredient
was garlic oil. Your pet may still have fleas but they won't bite (the
fleas. See another note about the cat biting).

Also, in winter, when she isn't rolling around in sand and things, her
fur is so aromatic (but not garlicky) that I love to just stick my nose
in it and inhale. Keeps my nose warm, too. 8^)

    re: .15
    
    I had a long talk with my vet's assistant this morning about flea
    powders, etc.  Basically flea products kill one or two stages of
    fleas (there are four stages).  I had assumed that therefore it
    would eventually get them all since they'd all pass thru that stage
    (one spray says "kills <foo> (I forget which) stage for 30 week"s),
    but the assistant says eggs can lay dormant for a very long
    time (two years?)                                               
    

    Also re.15, answered my own question!  I had the groomer and cashier at
    a pet supply store tell me that flea powder doesn't do anything except
    get the fleas to move someplace else, including a different part of the
    cat.  But I used some last night on my big cat Spike, and found 4 dead
    fleas on the white towel where he had been sleeping last night. So I
    guess it does kill adult fleas.  Since I can't use anything with
    pyrethrins on Spike or one of my dogs, they all got a good "shaking"
    this morning.  I'll continue to treat the carpets and furniture with
    those 210-day sprays, but the animals will have to stick with the
    powder.  None of us humans have been bitten yet, and I still cannot
    spot any fleas on the animals themselves, but I can see some flea dirt
    and those 4 corpses this morning tell me we've got 'em someplace!
    Hopefully I've gotten to them in the nick of time...
    Sarah

    
    
                      FLEA BUSTERS HAS BEEN OUR LATEST SOLUTION
    
                         I have been pretty discouraged lately with
                trying to overcome this horrible problem. I have gone to 
                bed at night and had nightmares about bugs.
                         The last time I saw the vet he had pamphlets
                for Flea Busters. Well I called them and they start at
                $150.00 for three carpeted rooms then it goes up something
                 like $30.00 for each addition room with a carpet.Well they
                 came on Saturday. I also had the cats dipped as we have 2 
                 long-haired. I will let you know what happens as they said
                 to give it 2-6 weeks to totally kill everything. They also
                 informed me nothing out there today kills the eggs but
                  their chemicals will kill the lava.
                        I think if this works it is worth it as between all
                  the powders and dips and bombs I have spent $150
                  easy.Also a plus is it is not harmful to your pet or your
                  babies.
    
                              Hopefully
                               Judy 

    We had a lovely stray cat staying with us in the guest room for a few
    days.  She is now being fostered by a fellow DECcie, (and maybe he'll
    keep her if she isn't claimed.)  The vet pronounced her healthy but she
    has ear mites and fleas.  The vet said the ear mites shouldn't get into
    the room but of course fleas are another matter.  We are (or have been)
    a flea free home.  I need some advice as to what I can spray or
    sprinkle on the furniture and carpet to kill the fleas and eggs, before
    I can open the room to the cats again.
    
    Thanks,
    Steffi

    Vacuum like a demon, and throw out the vacuum bag (or put flea powder in it
    first).  Get safe products from your vet, instead of potentially harmful
    ones from the store.
    
    signed,
    
    I'm giving advice?  there are still fleas in my house, sigh.
    

    
    I remember that Nancy DC got me using an area spray that was made by
    the people at 3M.  I only remember that it was really great in that it
    did NOT smell....not at all.  And I had had the worst time with fleas
    two summers ago, to the point where I had to bomb.  And it was a 102
    degree day and I was outdoors in the sweltering heat and humidity with
    my (then) four cats.......  delightful....and the house wreaked for
    hours afterwards.  
    
    This area spray was much nicer...if only I could remember the name of
    it....
    
    Nancy  (now flealess)

    Steffi, try Jo's borax method of flea removal.  The borax dehydrates
    them and the extensive vacuuming helps get them out of the house. 
    It's worked for her for a while now.
    
    Jan

    Thanks, all. Bob just called to tell me that the room is being
    defogged right now.  Is borax still necessary?
    
    Steffi

    Does the fog kill the flea eggs too?  If not, I'd put the 
    borax down as a extra measure to dry out the eggs.  Couldn't
    hurt.  Any chemists out there know if there would be any 
    concern about chemical interaction between fog residue and
    borax?
    
    Jan

    Has anyone ever heard of flea treatments being bad/dangerous for older
    cats?  Pumpkin is 13 years old, an inside cat, and has fleas!
    
    I need to get rid of them, but wanted to hear different opinions.
    
    
    Donna

Every once in a while fleas become a problem for us indoors.  We generally
use a cat-specific dip/shampoo, plus Raid's FleaKillerPlus or similar for
the furniture and carpets.  Usually works.  In some cases, we do a full
set of pro-ban for everyone, but that's tough for 6 cats.

We're trying the new Scratchex product right now -- I like it so far.
It seems to work, doesn't smell like chemicals, and doesn't bother
the cats except for the spraying noise when it goes on.

Klaus,Katrina,Phantom,Nutmeg,Coconut,Bailey,Georgina,Bosco, and me, Bill.

    I am a believer in using Borax and the key is staying on top of the
    problem.  Come spring time...I sprinkle my rugs on a weekly basis
    with Borax and let it sit for an hour or two before vacuuming. During
    the summer I also put borax in the vacuum bag, vacuum more, and change 
    the bag more frequently.   Last summer was a bad year for fleas..and with
    10 cats (most of them do go outside for a bit)...I stayed on top
    of the problem all summer long.     My first successful year ever!!
    
    From what I have read (and seen) Borax cannot harm your cats. (you
    might want to check with your vet).    One year we did have to resort
    to using chemicals and I used Durotrol Flea Spray.  That worked good 
    and kept the fleas under control for about 60 days...but I hated using
    chemicals with so many animals.
    
    Sandy
    
    
    

    I called my vet regarding the flea problem.  At first they recommened a
    flea bomb---no can do because of fish tank. (we have an outside filter,
    chemicals getting in the water can kill fish, etc)
    
    Anyway, I mentioned borax and she reccomended that highly.  She said to
    leave it on for 24 hours and that it wouldn't harm Pumpkin.  I don't
    know that I'll leave it on for that long, but I will use it.  She also
    suggested a mild flea mist called Adams Flea and Tick Mist that I might
    try on pumpkin.   It was also reccomended that I treat our apartment
    every 3 weeks minimum due to hatching baby fleas.  The thought makes me
    sick.  I've just been putting off the problem, but I've got flea bites
    on my ankles and enough is enough.
    
    
    Toodles,
    
    Donna

    Thought I'd post the borax flea removal method Jo sent me ages
    ago.  She says it works great but is a lot of work.
    
    
                     Jo Ann's New Borax Flea Removal Method
                                  (What a Job)
    
     1.	 Go to store buy bunches of vacuum bags
    
     2.	 Vacuum entire house, throw out bag
    
     3.	 Remove cushions from sofas and chairs
    
     4.	 Spread the borax in the sofa and replace cushions (you can mix flea 
         powder with the borax if you want to) 
    
     5.	 Move all the furniture around and spread borax all over d*mn house
    
     6.	 Get a broom and brush it (work it) into carpet
    
     7.	 Let sit for 24 hours
    
     8.	 Put a new vacuum bag in vacuum and vacuum entire house
    
     9.	 Throw away the bag
    
    10.	 For next 3 weeks vacuum every day and throw out bag
    
    11.	 After that you just have to put borax down once a week and vacuum it 
         after 24 hours
    
    12.	 This is also good exercise and improves your cardiovascular capacity
                                                                    

    I am a true believer of Borax and totally agree with Jo's 
    Borax Flea Removal Method. (she taught me well!!)   
    
    The only thing I can add to that note is it is KEY to get on top 
    of the problem as soon as possible.  During the winter I use
    the Borax about once a month...but starting in May I use the Borax
    on a weekly basis.  With MANY cats I can honestly that it is August
    and I still do not have a flea problem in my house.
    
    Of course...I also use the flea comb alot too!!!
    
    Sandy  

    Is the borax you mention the 20MuleTeam Borax you get in the grocery
    store or something else?
    
    Dana

    
    Yup.
    

    Should step 10 be: 
    
    Sprinkle more borax all over house? 
    
    Maybe it's a given, but if I vacuumed every day, I should replace the 
    borax every day, yes?  I have one of those 9 HP vacuum cleaners, so it 
    would suck up everything the first time I vac.  Does this stuff smell 
    like soap? Would really freshen the house, wouldn't it?  I am caring
    for some friend's pets (a big dog and 2 cats, in addition to my 2 small
    dogs and my 2 BIG cats).  The house could use some freshening!!! And I
    want to ensure no fleas find their way onto ANY of our pets..or into my
    house (nasty, &*%%, blood-sucking pests).
    Sarah

    Sarah....
    
    On step 10 it really depends on how bad you have a flea problem or
    if you are in maintenance mode.   When I HAD a flea problem...I
    sprinkled the Borax on a daily basis, waited about 2 hours and
    then vacummed.  (I personally do not like to leave it down for a
    full 24 hours) Because I don't feel I have a flea problem at the 
    moment...I am in maintenance mode and only sprinkle it once a week.
    
    To me Borax does not have much of a scent...so it does not leave a
    soapy smell...but rather a fresh clean smell.   Sometimes I sprinkle
    a very small amount of the "apple spice" rug deoderant powder in with
    the borax and this give it a very light apple scent! 
  
    We use to use a colander to put the Borax on the rug...but now I found
    a small container with wholes on top to sprinkle the Borax.  I just
    continue to fill the small container with the Borax from the box.
    
    I just want to set expectations too...if you do have a flea problem
    the Borax will not kill the adult fleas...but it will kill any new
    eggs.  The key is to break the cycle so if you kill the eggs your
    flea problem will disappear!   Adult fleas have a very short life
    span...(I think it's 7 days).
    
    Hope this helps.  
    
    Sandy
    
    
    

    Thanks, Sandy.  One of my cats goes outside daily.  I flea comb the
    entire brood (cats and dogs) each and every evening, and I
    occassionally find one of the buggers on the go-outside cat. I don't
    see any on the other animals, but if even ONE gets into
    the rug, I know I'll have a flea problem.  One of my dogs is extremely
    allergic to flea-killing products, so I think I'll consider myself in
    maintenance mode to prevent a problem.  I assume the borax acts as a
    dessicant for the eggs?  And daily vacuuming and tossing of the bag
    will suck up the adults, so it sounds like a reasonable approach.
    Sarah

    So, I guess the vacuuming is to get rid of the adult fleas, yes?  My
    sister said she used borax mixed with salt and only had to use it one
    time.  She must have caught the problem early on.
    
    I'm nixing the idea on Adam's mist.  It has all these precautions and
    then says "don't get near the genital area".  Well excuse me, but thats
    where the little blood suckers like to go.  In between her legs seems
    to be a favorite hidout.  I don't believe they've traveled to her back
    area, but who knows.
    
    
    

    It is very possible that you only have to use it once or twice...
    but when you have indoor/outdoor pets (dogs or cats) you have to 
    continue in maintenance mode for life!!!!
    
    I would also be careful when mixing any of the products such as
    mist for floors, borax flea collars, and powders.  I'm sure the 
    combination of all of them could have a reaction to some cats.
    
    Sandy

Note 407 centers around a flea-infested kitten that developed diarrhea and died.
In the past few days we've had three flea-infested kittens (all about 4 weeks
old) appear where I work. The first client had lost two the previous night and
we were unsuccessful in saving the third. Another client brought in a two kittens
and so far it looks like they're going to be okay. The ones we lost died from
lack of blood - small kittens don't have much and a bad infestation can literally
suck the life out of them. Their veins are so small it's difficult trying to give
them a transfusion. The one we lost had *lots* of fleas - guess was over 200 - so
it was a pretty bad case.

						Trace

    Well I guess it's my turn to deal with fleas this year!
    
    Last Thursday I found one on me when I woke up (both cat sleep with
    us.)  Anyway, I immediately put them outside and went to the Vet's to
    get bombs and their special shampoo.  Came home (this is all 1st thing
    in the AM) and bombed the house.  When I came home we cleaned up and
    then I bathed Ralph and Alice w/the shampoo and also powdered them
    down.  (I got 5 bombs - 2 for upstairs - 2 for down - and one of the
    cellar PLUS did the Borax)
    
    Saturday AM my husband informed me that he see a flea in the
    livingroom.  Again, went to the Vets, got another bomb for the
    livingroom/dining room and took the cats in to be professionally
    dipped.
    
    Now, last night both Paul and I woke up and felt something in the bed. 
    Ralph and Alice aren't scratching and I hope it's NOT our imagination
    but it just feels like something is there.  We were both up at 3am
    looking all over the bed but couldn't find anything.
    
    Questions:  1.  Does it take awhile for the bombs & dipping to actually
    work?  If so, HOW LONG??!!
    
    2.  Ralph and Alice don't wear flea collars but like I said, both have
    been shampooed both professionally and by me and I spray them every
    other day.
    
    I think I'm losing my mind here (or at least a battle!)  Can someone
    advise me on what else I can do or should expect for awhile.
    
    Thanks!
    
    
    
    Nancy
    
    P.S.  We went through this last year but after my shampooing them and
    bombing the house never had a problem until last week.

    It seems like all fleas popped up as soon as we hit September
    and normally the worse month is August!!!
    
    First I would be very careful mixing all the flea ingrediants
    on the cats.   They could have a very nasty reaction to the
    different things in the different flea products.
    
    I can't give you much advise on bombs because I have never used them...
    but a key to the borax is staying on top of the problem so it doesn't
    turn into a infestation.   Borax will kill eggs...but will not kill
    the adult fleas.
    
    Next season...start the Borax Maintenance mode in April so you will
    stay on top of the fleas even during the worse time!!!!   With 8
    indoor/outdoor cats..and only using Borax...I can honestly say I
    have seen a flea or two...but I really feel I got the best of them
    this year!!!!!
    
    Sandy
     

    
    
          bombs will work immediately, borax as mentioned will dry the eggs
    out and prevent them from hatching.  you may need to repeat both
    procedures again.
          when you bomb the bedroom next time, remove all linens and let
    the stuff work on your mattress this time.  wash all linens.
    once you feel a flea, it seems every little itch you have in the night
    is a flea!  using the borax treatment we haven't had any in 5 years
    now.  
    
         good luck

    It's a pain, but this is what I've been doing.  I haven't gotten rid of
    them entirely, but I don't wake up with fleas on me anymore either.
    
    1.  I bought some stuff called DEFEND and sprayed it on my cats. 
    Seemed to work pretty good.
    
    
    2.  I spray the rugs every other week and immediately vaccuum.  This
    helps kill them in the vacuum cleaner.
    
    3.  I vacuum my bed EVERY NIGHT before I go to bed and keep the
    comforter totally covering my bed, so fleas don't tend to get inside my
    bed.  You have to vacuum the bed, especially if the cats sleep on it,
    because they leave little eggs behind, which eventually hatch.
    
    4.  Most importantly, and mostly a pain, I comb each one of my 5 cats
    every chance I get....at least once a day....and drown the fleas down
    the sink with hot water.....it's not a pretty job, but someone gotta do
    it....
    
    hope this helps......
    
    michele

    I've seen people mention a flea comb before but haven't seen them in
    stores.  With three indoor/outdoor cats in Houston, my parents deal
    with a lot of fleas.
    Where do you get the flea comb?  Is that what it is called?
    
    p (Cain and Miss Abel in MA; Tiger, Bitsy, and Mr. Mestopholes (all
    guys:-) in Houston)

    re .44
    
    You can find these combs in a pet store.  Be sure to get a fine comb so
    that you catch the fleas when you comb them.  ANd comb all the way down
    to the skin....that's where the fleas are hiding...
    
     
    IMPORTANT!!  I tend to
    put my felines on the bathroom sink with the water running (HOT).  And
    everytime I comb them I quickly put the comb under the water or put my
    finger on the comb (over the fleas) until I get it under the water. 
    Sometimes they are a little too fast for me and jump off the comb
    before I can get them under the water.  Also, let the hot water run for
    a while after that last flea goes down the drain....otherwise, they
    don't die and crawl back up the sink drain....When I do that, I walk
    into the bathroom and there are about 5 fleas hopping around inside my
    sink....I guess it's too slippery and they can't get a good push off to
    hop very far.....they look like mexican jumping beans....sliding all
    over the place...
    
    
    hope this helps....
    
    michele

    You can also take a small bowl of hot soapy water and drown
    the fleas...the soap tends to keep them from not moving.
    
    Or a more painful death....dab them in a glob of vasoline and
    watch them suffer.  Gee.....my mind is morbid today!!!
    
    Sandy

    Thanks for all your help!  I will definitely go for the Borax again the
    the flea comb.  Boy, am I having fun!!!

    
    
                               Flea Busters to the Rescue
    
    
              I have had to use this company for the second time.
          I have to run will give some good hints about what I learned from
          them later.
    
       Judy
    
       Hardwood floors are the worst place forthem to live. not carpets.
       Flea Busters who usually give 1 year guarantee  will only give a
       a six month for hardwood floors.
    
    

    I think I have a flea problem, but I'm not really sure if it's a
    big problem or a little problem.  A couple of weeks ago I found one flea 
    on Markie.  I immediately gave her a flea bath.  It looked as though I had
    combatted it until the following week I found another flea on her.  So
    I gave her another bath.  I have yet to see any more fleas on her but
    have seen some "flea dirt".  She has some red spots on her back from
    where she's been scratching that seemed to get better immediately after
    I gave her a bath.  I was wondering if I really needed to go through so
    much effort using the Borax method to get rid of the fleas when there
    really doesn't appear to be much of a problem.  Is there an easier way? 
    Not that I'm lazy, it's just that I don't have the time in the evenings
    to do this and I'm not at home on the weekends.
    
    Lori B.

    My mother has a real thing about fleas. She says she can't bear to see
    an animal scratching. She found that flea-collars are not much use and,
    like you, she didn't want to be constantly spraying/bathing/powdering
    her cat. The best solution she has found is to use a flea comb
    regularly and to drown any fleas that she finds. 
    The colder weather is coming now and she's hoping that the fleas will
    be killed by the temperature.

    I've been doing the flea comb also. I have two that LOVE to be combed,
    and one that will sometimes tolerate it around her head and the very
    top of her back. I usually find the fleas up near this ones head
    anyway, so that works out.
    
    I comb them almost whenever they happen to be close enough! ;-) My big
    guy, Finnigan, combs his own face for meby rubbing against the comb,
    one side, then the other, then back to the other..... ;-)
    
    I'm hoping the cold weather will help also, but I have my bombs ready
    just in case. I can keep my cats confined to the porch for the three or
    so hours needed to bomb.
    
    It's a good thing I like to comb them though. I'd rather not bomb if I
    can help it.
    
    Yonee

    So you're saying that if I buy a flea comb and just comb her and put
    down some borax a couple of hours before vacuuming it, then I may be
    able to nip it in the bud?  I'll at least try it.
    
    Lori B.

    Just remember the cold will kill the fleas outside...but if
    your house is nice and warm...they can thrive inside in
    the winter.
    
    If you think you have a problem with rugs...take a bowl of water
    and put a bar of ivory soap in the water.  Then take a goose head
    lamp and put it over the bowl.   The fleas jump at the light..and
    fall into the bowl of water but can't get out because of the soap.
    It's a good way to tell if you really have a bad problem.  If you
    don't find any fleas in one spot...move it to another spot!!!
    
    I personally use Borax all winter long...just to be on the safe side.
    
    Sandy

    Do you put the borax all over the place (do you move furniture - yuk,
    what a drag!) or just on the showing carpeting?
    
    Lori B.

    It really depends on how bad I have a flea problem.  During the
    winter months when I don't see fleas...I normally just put it
    on the rugs that are showing.  BUT...when I had an infestation...
    I put the darn stuff under everything and on everything including
    furniture!!!!
    
    It does give your house a nice clean/fresh smell!!  
    
    Sandy

    In my experience, there is no such thing as "just one flea".... these
    little creatures multiply VERY quickly. The bad news is just because
    you don't seen them, doesn't mean they are not there. If you see flea
    dirt - you've got fleas. 
    
    An aggressive attack in the beginning can stop the infestation. It may
    seem like "overkill" but that's exactly what you have to do.
    
    janetb.
    
    ps - I've always thought that fleas could survive a nuclear attack...

  what about when you have no/limited rugs (just a couple of area/scatter rugs)?
  do you still sprinkle the Borax on the hardwood floors ????

  Debbi

    Deb...I have washed my scatter rugs with Borax.  I have one yucky
    hardwood floor that I do sprinkle the borax on..but since the floor
    does not have a wonderful shine, I really don't care if it got ruined
    by the borax.  I did notice that the borax gets in the little cracks
    (where the fleas probably hide) but it is tougher to vaccuum it up.
    If I was you ...I'd test a little borax on your hardwood
    floors to make sure it doesn't make it loose it's shine.

    Skinnytail had a real flea problem all summer. There were 5 of them (I
    almost got to recognise them individually!) who live on his back just
    up from the base of his tail (just where he can't quite wash due to his
    fat tummy).
    
    Regular Tiguvon didn't seem to help (always done the trick before). I 
    eventually got a flea comb and physically removed all 5, and they
    haven't been back since - no chemicals, no baths.
    
    Andy

    Just remember if your kitty has fleas...he also probably has
    tapeworm so it's best to have your vet check out a stool sample.
    
    Sandy

    is that how they get tapeworm?
    
    are humans susceptible to it too then?
    
    my parent's cats tend to have bad flea problems and a couple had
    tapeworms...
    
    we were always finding fleas all over the place...
    
    phil

    I know fleas cause tapeworm....and I have yet to hear of
    a human who caught tapeworm from their cats/fleas.  But
    cats can pass tapeworms to each other....so if you do
    suspect them keep your litterbox cleaned!!!
    
    Roundworms are mostly caused from cats eating nasty
    little critters like mice.  But again...cats can
    catch roundworms from each other.
    
    Sandy 
    

    >>  I know fleas cause tapeworm....and I have yet to hear of
    
    Does anyone have an explanation of this, sounds biologically unlikely?
    Do fleas carry the tapeworm eggs?
    
    Andy

    Yup, fleas do carry the tapeworm egg. Cats can also get tapeworm from
    eating mice and such. They get bit by fleas, which transmit it to the
    critter, which then so generously shares it with the kitty! :-( Almost
    poetic justice if you think about it!
    
    Of course not EVERY flea carries it, but it can't hurt to have a stool
    sample checked just in case.
    
    Yonee

    It works like this:
    
         Flea bites kitty
    
         Kitty bites/eats flea (flea has tapeworm eggs in it)
    
         Eggs develop into tapeworms in kitty's intestines
    
         Flea bites kitty...
    
    Uncontrolled fleas reproduce at an alarming rate and pass the tapeworm
    eggs down through successive generations.  Therefore, you control
    tapeworms by controlling the fleas.
    
    Learned it the hard way,
    Carl

    People keep telling me that the cold weather is here and that the flea
    problem will be going away.  My question is this:  I've also been tol
    that because my cats are indoor cats that the fleas won't go away.  So,
    if I leave my house cold for a period of time, will the fleas die?  If
    so, how long and what temperature are they susceptible to?
    
    Thanks,
    Michelel

    The best way to repel fleas is to get rid of them professionally, not
    wait for them to die.  They are very hardy critters and can thrive in
    fairly cold temperatures (or so I have heard).  My ex had to set off
    six bombs for a mild flea infestation in the house... when we bathed
    the cats recently they were loaded!!  And very hard to drown.
    
    You can also try the Borax method that Sandy often speaks of.  It does
    work!  It's all natural, and you and your cats don't have to leave the
    house while it takes affect.
    
    -Roberta
    

    Oops, the FLEAS were very hard to drown, not the cats!  Heaven forbid I
    tell the Feline community that I tried to drown three cats!!
    

    Two weeks ago I tried the Borax method.  I did exactly as Sandy said. 
    I moved every piece of furniture and put Borax all over every carpet. 
    I also put it on my couch and my chair in my living room.  Before doing
    this, I scrubbed every floor with PineSol.  The next morning I got up,
    gave my cat a flea bath and then put her in the bath room while I
    vacuumed up all the carpets and beds.  My vacuum cleaner does not have
    bags, but rather a huge canister (no, it's not an electric broom), so I
    after each room, I went out into the hallway and emptied the canister
    into a bag and tied the bag up securely and left it in the hall and
    then washed the canister out with scalding hot water and continued to
    vacuum until every drop of Borax was vacuumed up.  I then rewashed all
    of my floors.  A lot of work that totally exhausted me and left me with
    a severe backache for three days.  Guess what?  My cat still has fleas. 
    The severe skin problem she had as a result of the bites is almost
    gone, but nonetheless, I'm still finding fleas on her.  What next?  I'm
    seriously thinking about getting flea bombs and setting them off this
    Saturday morning, but I have to take her out of the house for a few
    hours to do this, and it's supposed to be arctic cold on Saturday.  I
    hate to put her in my car with fleas on her and then have my car be
    infested with them.  Anyone have any other suggestions?
    
    Lori B. 

    Lori....the Borax does not kill the adult fleas...it only kills
    the eggs.  The adult fleas have a very short life span (I think
    4-5 days) so by killing the eggs you break the flea cycle!! Since it
    has been two weeks since you did this.. I HATE to say it but you probably 
    have more eggs now!!
    
    The key now is to stay in maintenance mode and continue to use the
    borax anytime you vacuum.  You don't have to do anymore heavy duty
    cleaning...but just sprinkle the borax and vacuum.  Once you no longer
    see fleas...I'd suggest to continue to use the borax on occasion!!
    In the summer I use it weekly and in the winter I use it about every
    other week.
    
    Even if it is cold outside...your fleas are nice and comfortable in
    the warm house.  Actually there are still fleas outside and I don't
    believe they die until they get truly buried in deep snow!!  They
    are hard "buggers" to kill!!!!
    
    I bet your house smells nice and clean..
    
    Sandy
    

    Actually Sandy, I haven't seen any fleas or flea dirt on Markie at all
    (just that one flea last Sunday night).  I was going to bomb the house
    tomorrow morning, but maybe I'll just pick up the Borax and do that
    again, that wasn't so bad, it was moving all the furniture that really
    s*cked!  Maybe I'll just do both (bombs and borax) and that way I may
    have the whole problem licked.
    
    Lori B.

Well, I have read this whole note, and of course nothing deals with my 
particular situation.  My new little feral kitty has fleas...I can't hold this
cat, certainly can't bathe him....any suggestions?

Thanks,
Laura

    Actually Lori...I would do one or the other because I hate mixing
    flea stuff (Borax, Bombs, and flea shampoo) because when I worked
    the Doggie Dip for the shelter we are told that mixing certain
    chemicals can be deadly to aminals.  We have to tell ALL the owners
    not to use flea collars or other flea products for atleast 1 week
    after the dip!!   I just take precautions...and use the borax..
    and a flea comb!!
    
    Sandy

    Laura, there's some stuff that you spray on the cat to kill the fleas. 
    You might want to use that and just spray the kitty until he's
    completely saturated (do this while he's in the cage).  He's probably
    hiss and spit, but at least he won't be able to run away or scratch
    you.  This may sound mean, but it may be the only way.  After he's
    completely saturated, leave him for about 10 minutes and then try to
    get a towel into the cage to dry him off.  This might work.
    
    Lori B.  

    So do you think it just might be cheaper if I got a flea comb and some
    Borax?  Should I not get flea powder too?
    
    Lori B.

    Laura...there is no hope for you!! (only kidding!!)  In your case
    I would request the vet to give the cat a flea bath once he knocks
    him out to be neutered!!!!   I wonder if there is a flea product you can
    hang on the cage...hmmmm...that would be nice?????
    
    Sandy

    
    Boy, reading this thread we have to thank the patron saint of cats
    (whoever he/she might be) that we're flea-free and have been for 
    many many many years...
    
    len.
    

>Note 94.77                    GETTING RID OF FLEAS                      77 of 77
>DRUMS::FEHSKENS "len, Engineering Technical Office"   7 lines  19-NOV-1993 06:42
>                      -< Fleas Can't Jump Four Stroies? >-
    
    
    Maybe not, but they can certainly jump three stories.
    
    Lori B. - who lives on the second floor of a house with a basement and
    owns an indoor only cat.

    Laura,
    
     You may still be able to do the Borax thing in your case. Fleas don't
    take up permanent residence on your kitty. They are pretty much there
    for a meal, and then into the carpeting they go! That's why treating
    the carpet to dry up eggs and (I think) larvae is so effective.
    
     The adult fleas go into the carpet, cracks in the floor or wherever,
    and lay the eggs. The eggs hatch, and then become adults, who live off
    kitty (and you) and then in turn lay eggs in the carpet, and on and
    on...
    
     If you can break the egg cycle by causing them not to hatch until the
    adults die of old age in a week or so, then you can still lick the
    problem without having to touch kitty! 
    
     Sandy, you're the flea pro here lately ( 8-} ) did I say that right?
    
     Of course I hope your feral soon becomes an 'ex' feral soon! 8-)
    
    Yonee
    

    Flea pro...Ohhhh that's what I always wanted to be when I grew up!!
    Jan...please tell Jo I'm the new "seller" of her Borax method and
    I'll give her half my profits!!  She sold me on the Borax method 
    2 years ago!!!
    
    It sounds like what Yonee says would work for the carpets...but since 
    Kitty is in a cage...I was trying to figure out a way to make kitty
    and the cage flea free too!!! And if you can't touch kitty...it makes
    it pretty difficult!!!!
    
    Sandy

    Sandy,
    
     Since borax is non toxic, what if she sprinkled kitty's bedding and
    cage floor? Would that help? Would it work? It wouldn't HAVE to be
    cleaned up right away, and wouldn't hurt kitty if he licked some of it
    off his fur, right? I guess I assumed the cage was on the floor, which
    would give the fleas easy access to the carpets. :-)
    
     I have sprayed my kitties with flea spray and flipped out when they
    were sick and started foaming at the mouth! I read the labels on flea
    products all the time, and they all say "harmful if swallowed"! How can
    they expect a cat NOT to swallow it, if it's on their fur, which they
    lick almost ad infinitum!? Where do the manufacturers presume it goes?
    They don't even know HOW to spit it out! I better not get started on
    this! :-(
    
     BTW, I got that flea spray form the vet! I was very upset when my
    kitties got sick from it.
    
     I'll keep thinking about this though. One never knows when my tired
    old brain will come up with something useful! ;-)
    
    Yonee
    

Yonee and Sandy,

The cage is on the floor.  I will pick up the borax and give the rug the 
sprinkling/vacuuming treatment.  I am going to stop at the vets and see what
they recommend.

Gypsy lets me pet him, briefly!  He even let me scratch me under his chin last
night, and lifted his little head up...he really enjoyed it!  Then I ruffled
his fur to see if he had any fleas, and immediately saw one, so there must be
many.   Last night Buki, my 4 year old male Lynxpoint siamese went into the
room Gypsy's in and they looked at each other, no hissing!

I tried picking Gypsy up, but he freaks out when I put two hands near him.  This
must be very threatening to him.  

Do the fleas always leave the cat to lay their eggs?  I always thought they 
layed the eggs in the fur!

Thanks for your help!
Laura

    They lay the eggs in the fur as well. Sigh ... no hope for it without
    some constant attention for a bit. As my vets receptionist put it,
    " ... It is not a matter of flea eradication, it is a matter of
    flea control. ..."
    
    I use Zodiac bombs twice a year (or RAID Fumigators, not RAID bombs!,
    with Zodiac's premise spray. I also used Victory saftey flea collars
    (11 month variety changed twice a year!) while I could find them. Up
    until this past summer (when we used the Raid Fumigators, but didn't
    follow up with the premise spray :-( for some reason) the cats and
    house were flea free (multiple indoor/outdoor cats) I can't find the
    Victory collars, so the poor kits pick up an occasional flea (I have 
    ZEMA and Escort collars in use now, but they just aren't as good!)
    which the flea comb gets, but the house no longer harbors the pests
    (fleas not cats!!!) 
    The Zodiac stuff interrupts the life cycle of the flea and prevents it
    from reaching adulthood. The premise spray is useful, as you can 
    partition your house and use it room by room (the carrier for the stuff
    is nasty but volitile and will kill adult fleas, but you must air the
    place out after using it. and most important keep the kits away while
    it is still 'wet'). The claim is to have a useful life of 210 days, and
    it seems to work well. (And I promise I'll never forget to do it EVER
    again)
    
    Hope this helps 
    Tjp (Just itching from talking about all this)

    Well I bought a flea comb this weekend and combed Markie.  Boy was I
    surprised to find as many fleas as I did.  Eight total.  I put the
    Borax down again on Saturday night and vacuumed it all up Sunday
    morning.  I combed Markie again twice yesterday and didn't find any
    fleas.  She's still scratching like crazy though.  Maybe due to the
    irritations she's caused from the prior scratching?  I would like to
    add another kitty to my house, but I want to make sure I have the flea
    problem licked.  I think it's pretty much under control right now.
    
    Lori B.
    
    P.S. I met Laura's new kitty - Gypsy.  He's absolutely georgeous!!!

    Lori,
    
    If Markie is scratching that much, she probably has an allergy to
    fleas.  TK has one and his skin became so raw from the scratching he
    had to be put on antibiotics due to infection.  Poor Markie probably
    feels miserable and should be seen by a vet to ensure the allergy isn't
    causing her problems.
    
    I wouldn't add any more cats until 1) the problem is fully under
    control, and 2) you can afford another cat.  I didn't think TK was that
    bad off until the vet told me his skin was infected from the flea
    bites.  It didn't feel that bad but it definitely was worse than I
    thought.
    

    This may sound awful but, I'm very reluctant to take her to a vet only
    because in the two years that I've had her, the only time she's had
    fleas is immediately after she's been at the vets.  Now that I have the
    problem pretty much in control, I don't want her to get more fleas. 
    I'm going to wait another couple of days and see if she stops
    scratcing.  The irritations have gotten much better since I've noticed
    there's a flea problem and have been taking care of it.
    
    Lori B.

    Sandy,
    
    I'll pass the info about you pushing Jo's Borax method on to her.
    I'm sure she'd enjoy a bit of profit sharing or at least some 
    royalties on the process. :^)  
    
    If anyone else wants a copy of her method, I think I still have it 
    on line somewhere (complete with her remarks about doing all that work).
    
    Jan

Came across this from Veterinary Products Laboratories at the vet's last night. 
Looks like it might have originated in a flyer distributed by the company. Don't
know the cost or if/when we'd order or try it. All I know about it is what you
read below...

Revolutionary new biological yard spray breaks the flea lifecycle naturally
   eggs -> larvae -> pupae -> adult -> eggs ...

Veterinary Products Laboratories introduces INTERRUPT Biological Flea Control
Yard Spray.

INTERRUPT eliminates over 90% of flea larvae and pupae

INTERRUPT Efficacy Statement
Studies to determine the efficacy of Steinernema carpocapsae against the cat
flea., Ctenocephalides felis performed by Dr. Roger Meola and Dr. Kathy Palma of
the Department of Entomolgy, Texas A&M University indicated that flea larvae are
very susceptible to S. carpocapsae.  Very high mortality levels (> 90%) were
observed with 24 hours.  Studies pefromed by Dr. Lane Foil, Louisiana State
University, indicated S. carpocapsae has the ability to penetrate the flea
cocoon and kill a large proportion of flea pupae (> 90%).  For a copy of these
efficacy studies call [number deleted by me - TT].

The vast majority of fleas are in the pre-adult stages - stages most vulnerable
to INTERRUPT.
	Adults: 5%, Eggs: 50%, Larvae: 35%, Pupae: 10%
		     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ -- pre-adult fleas

Only 5% of fleas are adults living on the pet.  The rest are eggs, larvae or
pupae, living in the environment - in your clients' homes and yards.  While flea
eggs are not affected by the nematodes in INTERRUPT, the eggs hatch into larvae
which are very vulnerable. [My take on the chart below is that the eggs hatch
into larvae and then get attacked. That's how the "doesn't work on eggs" might
match up with 100% elimination. - TT]

% of pre-adult fleas eliminated [Eyeballing from a bar chart, here...]
		sand	soil	gravel
 Eggs		100	65	100
 Larvae		100	75	100
 Pupae		70	60	95

Efficacy on cat fleas % control
Bermudagrass:	 94.8
Tall Fescue:	 95.55
Sand:		100
Pine Straw:	 95.77

Studies performed by Dr. Rick Brandenburg and Dr. Jim Arendis, North Carolina
State Univeristy, showed nearly total elimination of pre-adult fleas in all
substrates tested.

An integrated pest management program provides maximum flea control.  Recommend
Interrupt together with on-animal and household insecticides for a complete flea
control program.

Beneficial nematodes are the ONLY active ingredient in new INTERRUPT

  Interrupt uses beneficial nematodes, naturale flea predators, to break the
flea lifecycle outdoors.  The nematodes kill flea larvae and pupae within 24
hours.  With adequate soil moisture, Interrupt continues to kill flea larvae for
up to 4 weeks - twice as long as any insecticide.

   In the soil, Interrupt's benefical nametodes actively search for pre-adult
fleas.  After invading flea larvae or pupae, that nematodes release bacteria
that kill the insect host within 48 hours.  The nematodes feed on the insect's
body, reproduce, and seek out more pre-adult fleas.  When all the flea larvae
and pupae have been killed, the nematodes starve to death and biodegrade.

  While Interrupt's nematodes are fatal to fleas, they will not harm people,
pets, plants or beneficial insects.


No chemical insecticides, no resistance

   o Interrupt leaves no chemical residues.  Children and pets can play out in
	the yard immediately after spraying.
   o Can be safely used in outdoor areas frequented by pets, including resting
	areas, pathways, exercise areas and around pet feeding areas.
   o Because Interrupt is naturak, there is not as great a risk of resistance
	as there is with chemical insecticides.

    My cat got outside and for the last 2 weeks I noticed that
    she was scratching more.  I searched her fur (as I know what fleas look
    like) but saw NOTHING.   Then last friday, it was cool so I
    put the afgan from the couch (she sometimes likes to curl up on this)
    and I kept feeling things sorta jump on my legs or
    little bites.  But I looked and saw nothing.  Late last night
    I was laying on the couch and couldn't stop scratching
    and the same invisible things jumping against my skin.
    
    I tore the couch apart and searched with a bright light and could see
    nothing.  Is there something she could have picked up that is VERY
    small.   Gwen and I are convinced there is something but
    my husband is starting to look at us both funny.;-)
    
    please help, this is starting to make me crazy!

    Yes, the dreaded "no-seeums".  The cure for me was to immediately
    wash the infested blankets, clothes, etc., and give the kitty a
    bath with flea shampoo.  I also vacuumed the places kitty frequented
    (hint:  when you first turn on the vacuum, spray some flea spray
    right into the nozzle -- that way, if you vacuum up any of the little
    buggers, the find finito in the bag).
    
    Carl

    I just finished a cleaning rampage...their blankets and bedding,
    all the furniture  (thanks for the idea about the flea spray
    on the vac nozzel!) I powdered the cats  (I was NOT popular
    with the kitty nation tonight)   I hope this does the trick
    as it is hard to fight what you can't see.  At least with
    fleas I could tell I was winning the battle...

    Sounds like chiggers.  In Texas you just walk through a field and
    "phump"  your scratching up a storm.  On humans I think you just use
    anti itch cream unless its severe.  I'd call your vet if your kitty is
    going banana's.
    
    dh

    
    We're going to the vets today...I'm really at wits end.
    Whatever they are, they are back.  It was better for one day
    after I had sprayed(flea spray) and vac'd like crazy.
    
    I keep getting bitten.  I think they are in the couch and
    rugs  (everything else the cat touched has been washed and
    is stored elsewhere for now (livingroom pillows, throws etc)
    
    I was bitten on the arm and I think it was VERY VERY tiny and
    white.   I looked at the couch and there are some tiny white
    things, but even with a magnifying glass they don't appear to
    move.    The bites make a small welt which last about and hour.
    
    We are going to get a bomb from the vet (or anything else from
    the vet) and see.  If this doesn't work, I don't have
    any other ideas.   The rug is an oriental and I guess I can
    take this to a rug dealer for cleaning.  The problem is
    what to do witht he sofa and loveseat and what if it spreads
    to other rooms.  I'm now only allowing the cats in the livingroom (which
    is large, so they have room to play)because I'm afraid if this gets 
    into the bedrooms (mattresse, carpets)
    
    gwen and merlin look at me as if to say, "so now what do we do?"
    last night, I was going over everything with spray and looking
    with magnifying glass and the two of them were right next to me, also
    looking like they were inspecting the dust and other fibers.
    
    -very depressed
    

    Sounds like some kind of mite. Have you tried calling an exterminator?
    They might at least be able to identify it for you, if you describe
    what you found.  Can you remove the cushions from the couch? You could
    toss them in large garbage bags, spray, then leave them sealed up. Or
    spray the couch (underside, everywhere), then drape in large pieces of
    plastic to seal in the vapor.  You might also ask the exterminator how
    much they charge to do the whole house. It might even out, after you
    add up all the sprays, bombs, vet dips, etc. And if you spray the
    livingroom, they might migrate to the next room to avoid the spray, so
    you should at least treat the nearest rooms (from the perimeter towards
    the middle of the room).
    Sarah

    I would be very afraid to get an exterminator in france
    and be sure that the products would not hurt the cats.
    (this is by judging the kinds of pesticides that they sell
    in the grocery store)
    
    

    I have had a very sad experience this week.  I flea dipped four
    of my "kids" (found some fleas on Sunday, bad).  One of them had a
    reaction to the dip and last night after talking to the vet was 
    told to bath him which I did.  He was very raspy/conjested so
    I spoke to the vet again and went to pick up a diuretic and prednisone,
    one pill last night, and again this morning.  Also, if he wasn't back
    to drinking water, I would bring him in today for fluids.  I was up
    until 3 a.m. worrying about the little guy (he's a year and a half).
    This morning he was alot better, thankfully.  I felt so bad for him.
    
    I was also told last night that the flea dip that I used has just been
    discontinued because of reactions in cats.  I don't know if I can
    mention the name in the file.  If I can, let me know and I'll enter it. 
    If not, write me, and I'll send you mail.
    
    This has been a terrible experience, and I feel for anyone and their
    pet that has gone through it.  The other three kids came through fine
    thank goodness.  I was going to bomb the house tomorrow, but will put
    it off another week.  
    
    deb

    In my bout with the no-seeums, which lasted a couple of weeks, I was
    never able to see anything, but then I didn't have a magnifying
    glass.  The cats got a flea bath immediately and I vacuumed everything
    in sight.  I wanted to avoid spraying the furniture mostly so the
    kitties wouldn't be exposed to possibly harmful residue, so I sprayed
    directly into the vacuum cleaner nozzle while it was running.  I also
    washed everything that the kitties laid on that I could get into the
    washing machine.
    
    As you say, this worked for a couple of days and then started up
    again, but not as bad as the first time.  The kitties were not
    scratching, so I skipped the bath and just vacuumed and washed as I
    did the first time.  A few days later I gave the kitties another bath.
    I've not had a repeat of the problem since then (about 4 years ago).
    Your level of infestation may require more vacuuming, bathing, and
    washing than what I had to do.
    
    As to what these buggers are, I have a couple of ideas:  I used to live
    in Texas, so I'm familiar with chiggers -- maybe there are some here
    in California as well.  There are also dust mites.  From what I've read
    dust mites like abnormally dusty environments best, like old houses
    with antiquated ventilation systems.  But dust mites eat dust and all
    the stuff that gets trapped in it, like skin flakes, tiny debris from
    clothes and shoes, plant matter, etc.  I've read nothing that suggests
    that dust mites will bite people or pets or take up residence on a
    living host.  Chiggers, or something similar, seems most reasonable
    to me.  At the time that I had the problem, my wife and I liked to take
    the kitties to Golden Gate Park on the occasional Sunday for a picnic.
    We would take the kitties in their carrier and when we got to the
    picnic area, put them in their halters and leash them to the carrier
    so they could wander around in the grass.  My conjecture is that the
    buggers came to us from the grass, the usual residence for chiggers
    and their associates.  Since that time, we've never taken the kitties
    back to the park again for fear of a reinfestation, not to mention
    the idiot people that don't restrain their dogs.
    
    In my case, persistence paid off with the bathing, vacuuming, and
    washing.  I didn't want to bring in a professional exterminator
    because I don't want to stink up my house with a bunch of potentially
    hazardous sprays and bombs.  But this is just my opinion and everyone
    should decide for themselves if and how far to go with pesticides.
    
    Carl

    I didn't mean to suggest they were "dust" mites - just mites.  There
    are a huge variety of mites.  Some, like the little red spider mite,
    will bite, and bite HARD.  I had one variety in my house once from a bird 
    nest that was under my air conditioner.  The mites migrated from the birds
    to the house.  They looked like tiny specks of dirt - hardly visible. 
    When seen through a magnifying glass, they still looked like specks of
    dirt - until I saw one move!  I felt like something was crawling on me,
    but I couldn't see anything!  Then I felt a BITE, but still couldn't
    see anything! I used RAID household insecticide in the
    room, closed it off so nobody could get into it for a few days.  And I
    removed the bird nest (luckily the occupants had already vacated!). No
    problem after fumigating the room.  I have a cat and a dog who are
    severely allergic to pyrethrins, so I have to be super careful what I
    use in my house.  I have a VERY radical approach to eliminating fleas
    (and the like).  I don't have the time to "maintain" or "keep on top of
    it", so if I detect a problem, I go WAY OVERBOARD.  I send the pets to
    my mothers, BOMB the house. Then I return a couple of days later and
    vacuum, vacuum, vacuum, throw out the vacuum cleaner bags, wash
    everything (I have since eliminated lots of unnecessary things like
    pillows, scatter rugs, table cloths, curtains, etc.), send out anything
    that can't be washed, shake out rugs. I go crazy.  I may bomb again,
    may not, depending on how bad the initial problem was. I have my own 
    home carpet shampooer, so I use a citrus flea shampoo as the solution. 
    I shampoo the furniture and the carpeting.  When I can walk into the
    house and NOT smell the chemicals, I go get the pets.  I know this
    sounds wild, but believe me it works.  It takes a couple of days, then
    no more problem!  
    Sarah  
     

    Last summer when we adopted Skrufy and Veto they came with "livestock",
    and by the time I was out of the denial stage we had a BIG problem. 
    Our vet suggested bombing the house (one can for each room) and she
    said "make SURE the label says it contains `methoprene'.  That's the
    ingredient you want; with any of the other bombs, you probably will
    have to keep bombing over and over."
    
    We ran right out to HQ and found some with methoprene (I don't remember
    the brand name, but it came in single cans or 4-packs).  I bought one
    for each room of the house plus one ("for the pot," as in tea), boarded
    the kitties for the day, and let 'em rip.  IT WORKS.  The label had a
    guarantee (6 or 7 months) and it's been over a year now!
    
    YMMV, of course, especially if yours are outdoor cats, but IMO
    methoprene is worth its weight in gold.  (On the other hand, flea
    collars aren't worth the powder to blow 'em up.  Might as well sit
    around lighting dollar bills.)
    
    Leslie

    In response to the deafening silence generated by my last reply :-)
    here are the specifics on the flea bomb I used.  I just did it again,
    to get rid of moths--the fleas never came back!  The box says it
    prevents reinfestation for 210 days (read roughly 7 months) and it's
    been a year.
    
    Red box with yellow triangle at upper left: ENFORCER
    
    In white on the red (main) section: FLEA FOGGER II
    
    Lower right, in yellow: CONTAINS VIGREN Insect Growth Regulator
    
    Make sure you get this one; there's another "Enforcer" in a similar
    box, but it doesn't have "Vigren" and the ingredients do not list the
    one thing you want: Methoprene.
    
    This time they came in 2-packs for $7.20 at HQ.
    
    The pets and people have to be out of the house, of course; after the
    bombs are set off, they must remain undisturbed for 2 hours.  After
    that, open doors and windows for an hour to ventilate.  *No* icky
    smell; no residue if you follow directions and put newspapers down
    around the can before setting it off.
    
    Leslie

  We've (the vet's) placed our order but it hasn't arrived as of today.

						Trace

    My vet's assistant told me that in June they will have
    some product available that I can add to my cats' food
    once a month, and it will result in any flea that bites the
    cat subsequently laying 99.9999 sterile eggs.  The vet is pretty
    careful about checking out new products for safety, so I do
    plan to try this.
    

    That sounds like "Program".  It's due out in liquid form for
    cats.  Jo tells me a lot of vets are giving the dog tablets
    to the cats and telling people to grind them up and put them
    in the food.  She's a bit alarmed at this since dogs and cats
    metabolize differently.  I know my vet is doing this and I
    have refused to use the dog product on my cats.  
    
    With 8 cats I'm not sure I can afford "Program".  It's selling
    for around $30+ dollars for a 6 month supply.  Per cat, that's
    a heck of a lot of money...sheesh $240 bucks (if you figure $30)
    to have them all on it for 6 months.  Actually, I think my vet
    is charging $31 for the dog variety.
    
    Jan
       

Which is one of the reasons it ships with no warnings and can be used in
conjunction with any other flea product. Lufeneuron (sp? a.k.a. Program) has
been selling in several countries for many years and has been quite successful.
I've read soe of the summaries of the efficacy studies for dogs and was suitably
impressed. It doesn't kill mature fleas, so you may want to use something for
those, too. $240 ain't cheap, but then I remember spending about that much for a
couple of rounds of flea bombing and flea baths a few years ago. You could try
shopping other vets for a better price. I know the wholesale cost - Program's
competition is flea bombing and baths, and as long as it's cheaper than that,
I'm not sure you'll see much of a price drop. We just got a videotape day
before yesterday that includes info about the cat version. I'll plan on taking
it home this weekend and seeing what it has to say. Nothing like spending the
holiday at home with the loved ones watching a flea product videotape. :-)

Part of the efficicay studies included overdosage tests and I believe it was
pretty safe, so I guess maybe people aren't worried about OD'ing a cat by
grinding up the pills for dogs. But since cats need more of it than dogs - too
much more to create a reasonable sized pill (thus its liquid form), I wonder how
one knows one's giving an appropriate/sufficient dose. I'm going to wait for
"the real stuff" since it's almost available.

						Trace

    I'm hoping someone can help me understand where these fleas are coming
    from.
    
    Ten months ago, while I was 7 months pregnant we moved to a new
    apartment, with brand new carpet and a brand new sofa. We flea dipped
    our indoor/outdoor cat before moving. The day after we moved my water
    broke and we had a premature baby. (He's doing great BTW). Our cat
    stayed indoors for 1 week in our new apartment before we had to give
    her to my mom (a premature baby has respritory problems). At first I 
    found a couple of fleas around that the flea dip didn't get, but for 
    at least 9 months I havent' seen anything.
    
    Recently, we took care of a friends indoor-only cat for a week. They
    called us the next day very upset saying they found 5 fleas on her.
    
    We have never seen fleas around and I vacumm all the time because I have a
    toddler now. So is it possible that there are eggs/larve in a chair or two
    and 10 months later when the cat came over they grew into adult fleas?
    
    How long can eggs/larve live before becoming adult fleas?
    
    Thanks for your help as I'm feeling really guilty.
    
    Laura
     

    You have more patients then I do. I would be tempted to tell them the
    next time they can board their cat.  I have heard of indoor kitties
    getting fleas even when they have never had them before. I doubt it is
    your fault, and even it if it so what. You didn't intentinally give
    the cat fleas. Good luck with the baby and don't feel guilty.

    Flea larvae can life for quite a long time - 10 months is reasonable. 
    They can also live in the cracks of hardwood floors, in your boxspring,
    etc.  New carpeting may also have simply covered over a problem.
    The flea could have come from literally anywhere, including the carrier
    they used to transport kitty from their house to yours, or on their
    clothing if they went for a walk, etc.  Unless you are being bitten
    (favorite family trick - pull on a pair of long white socks, and scuff
    your feet all over your carpeting - if they are in there you will see
    them jump on your socks!), blaming your house is kind of silly...
    Sarah

    A cat could even pick it up at the vet! I had a flea jump on my from a
    dog that was in the waiting room (that was comming in for a flea dip, I
    might add!)
    
    Deb

	Wow!  Just goes to prove the old saying "no good deed goes unpunished!"
I can't imagine COMPLAINING after someone has done you a favor, but then the
number of rude people in this world never ceases to amaze me.

	Yes, the fleas could have come from your place.  The cocoon stage 
can actually survive up to two years while waiting for the ideal conditions 
(warm weather and an animal to feast on).  However, they could have brought 
the fleas with them.  It's definitely flea season and the little pests are 
outside everywhere.  They could have jumped on the kitty (or them) on their 
way over to your place.  Regardless, if they bring it up again, I'd tell them
to pound sand.  And, as an earlier reply already suggested, tell them to 
board the kitty next time.  Or, I suppose the approved Miss Manners response
would be (in the nicest voice you can muster) "I think you'd be happier with 
a boarding kennel since we were so inadequate last time."

	Whatever you decide, don't waste another second agonizing over this -
they behaved extremely badly.

			SQ

    I don't want to start a flame warr, but could it be that your friend
    wanted you to *WARN* that they found fleas, so that if there was a
    problem you could take care of it before it got out of hand? Of course,
    sometimes it is all in the mannner of delivery of the message.
    
    
    Deb

Re .106:

What you said, but more so.  For all we know, these people brought the fleas
in with -them-.  Humans can have fleas too.  <smirk>  Probably not a good idea
to say that to them, though.  Still.

    Thanks for the reassurance! These are "friends" of my husband and he
    has gotten quite annoyed with them also. We have taken care of their
    cat 4 times in the last couple of months without any flea problems. But
    the weather this last week has been HOT, so perhaps they did grow into
    their full glory (the fleas that is).  :)
    
    I did try to suggest - ever so politely - that maybe the cat already had 
    fleas when she came over, but they would not even hear it. In fact, I got 
    to listen to how he pulled his back out from the flight and what a 
    difficult time he was going to have flea dipping her. I guess he was
    making sure that I would absolutely feel guilty. BTW - he was not
    trying to warn us that we might have a flea problem, it was a 8:00 am
    Sunday morning call of blame. There is no question about that. 
    
    So now my next step is to try to get rid of any remaining fleas and
    larvae without using any dangerous pesticides (the little guy puts
    *everything* into his mouth). And I guess that I don't get to watch
    their kitty for free anymore.
    
    Not feeling as guilty,  :)
    
    Laura
       
                          

    Wow - those people really sound like winners!
    
    I for one, can assure you that indoor cats can get fleas.  I lived
    in a third floor apartment with indoor-only cats, and my cats got
    fleas!  So they can travel on your clothes.
    
    So, he very well may have brought in fleas to his own cat.  The
    nerve of him throwing this at you at 8 a.m. on a Sunday morning
    when you took car of his cat FOUR times in the past few months!!
    Unreal.  Let him board his cat and pay for it - then he'll REALLY
    have fleas to deal with.  You can bet the vets and kennels have
    plenty of them right now!
    
    Pam

re .112:

IMO, any guilt cast by these people is null and void.  Calling at 08:00 on
a Sunday, indeed!  In my apartment, such a call would be taken by the answering
machine, and after I listened to it I'd probably ignore it.

It's because of such calls that my bedroom no longer has a phone, and I can
-barely- hear the phones in the other rooms from there.

    Amazing.  BTW, my kitties have been on Program for about 5 weeks
    now, and it's really working;  I used to find several fleas on each
    cat, there was a real problem, but now I can comb all (sigh) four
    and likely find zero or maybe one flea total and virtually no flea dirt.
    Since fleas reproduce over 30 days +, I expect things to improve
    further.  I add the Program to Swanson chicken packed in water, so the
    cats don't complain about it :-)
    

    
>    So now my next step is to try to get rid of any remaining fleas and
>    larvae without using any dangerous pesticides (the little guy puts
>    *everything* into his mouth). And I guess that I don't get to watch
    
Either Fleabusters or Jo Ann's Borax method (I'm sure Jan will mail it to 
you if you want it) would be your best solution for non-toxic flea control.

			SQ

    Call the Edgehill Animal Clinic in Framingham on Route 9.  When I
    brought Fluffy to him for his checkup last winter, he recommended a
    system of somekind.  At the time it seemed benign enough, and he
    claimed it worked safely, and just about guaranteed it.  Since I didn't
    have a flea problem at the time I really didn't take note of what
    exactly it was.  I do remember it was a multi step process, but NOT
    like a house bomb.
    
    FWIW, this it the doctor who give special rates if you want a stray
    checked.  Proceedures are extremely inexpensive, and NO charge for the
    office visit.  Great humanitarian the way I saw him!
    
    Lyn

    
    My daughter's cats have been on the Program for 3 months, with improved
    results.  I would like to try the Program for my cats, but one cat I
    have is a very finicky eater, and I doubt that I would be able to mix
    in the Program with her food so that she would eat it.  Does anyone
    know if there will be a pill form for cats?  I have no problem giving
    pills to my cats.
    
    eleanor
    

    RE: <<< Note 94.118 by USCTR1::ESULLIVAN >>>
    
    Try mixing a little tinned tuna or something that they would only
    normally get as a special treat.  Mine'll eat anything if I do this.
    
    Sharon
    
    BTW they are now happily installed in their new home, with my mother
    who spoils them rotten!!!

The reason we were given at the initial Program presentation by the sales rep
was that.....mmmm.....cats needed a higher dose (I believe) and the size of the
resulting pill would have been enormous so they went with the liquid.

						Trace

    
    
    I wonder if it has been the same for the rest of you New Englanders!
    Last summer we went crazy trying to get rid of darn fleas, even though
    all our cats are indoor only! We bombed, sprayed used borax , it was 
    nuts! Nothing seemed to help for more than a few days, then the darn 
    things would show up again. This summer, I happy to report (knock wood)
    we have not had any flea problems ;-) 
    
    Shaw

    Shaw...I do agree.  It's not that I haven't seen a flea this year,
    but it is NOT half as bad as last year.  I wonder if it has something
    to do with lack of rain and the HOT weather.  Maybe the fleas are
    frying in the heat!!
    
    Sandy

    
    I'm sorry, you're both wrong - all of YOUR fleas moved to MY house 8^p.
    
    My vet finally gave me something to treat the cats and house with,
    although I don't like to use chemicals.  I've been almost bite-free 
    for over two weeks, although my legs are a disaster of scars from the
    previous ones 8^/.
    
    

    
    
    I sympathize with you, there's nothing worst than those little 
    fleas jumping around on your bed. I thank you for allowing 
    the migration from our house to yours ;-)
    
    Shaw 

    Don't know if I put this in here before, but nature has a wonderful
    potion available to keep the fleas away.   Its called PENNYROYAL OIL.
    I always keep some of this on hand.  It has a strong smell not terribly
    unpleasant but NOT floral either.  If my legs are getting bitten, I put
    some oil on a cotton ball and but it between the sheets at the foot of
    the bed.  My cats tend to sleep/lean on my lower legs so that's where
    I get bites.  I get my oil at Pickety Place in Mason, NH but I think I've
    also seen this at Evelyn Crabtree stores in the malls.  Some how we got
    skipped in the migration path, thank you, thank you!!  

re: .123
    
>    although I don't like to use chemicals.  I've been almost bite-free 
>    for over two weeks, although my legs are a disaster of scars from the
>    previous ones 8^/.

  I also carry the scars from our last round of fleas, but at the end, I 
found that if I used a little hydrocortisone cream, I could keep a lid on 
the itching.  Once the itching stopped, I stopped scratching them open in my
sleep at night and scars didn't develop.  It does no good for the old scars,
but maybe I won't get any more.  The cream is a prescription from a 
Dermotologist for my husband's chronic skin problem, but I'm sure I could 
have begged for a prescription of my own if I needed to.  One look at my legs
would have been enough for the doctor.

Much sympathy,
SQ
    

    
    re:94.120
    
    	Trace,
    
    	Why would cats need a higher dose?  This doesn't make sense to me.
    	I would think that body weight would be the key to dosage, unless
    	there is a relationship to metabolism (that would make sense).  So
    	is there a dig difference in metabolism between dogs and cats, and
    	is that the reason?
    
    	Eleanor
    
              

    I see all this stuff about fleas and remember my battle with them
    a few months ago.  Whew!  What a relief that I seem to have won
    the battle.
    
    But, I'm pleased to report that my new next door neighbor not only
    is a cat lover (he has a 13 year old) but is also an exterminator.
    He told me next time the problem pops up to let him know and he'll
    take care of it for me.  The goddess must be looking out for me. :^)
    
    Jan

    Just a caution on pennyroyal oil. It is an excellent aid against fleas
    but should never be applied to skin, fur, etc. or ingested as it can
    be toxic if the amounts are high enough. Toxicity can produce
    miscarriages, even death if the amounts are high enough.  Although the
    amounts needed to do this for humans are high,  the amount needed for
    a little kitty is much smaller.  Use the pennyroyal on your sheets,
    repellant muslin bags, things like that.
    Lavendar and mint are safer and can be applied to the skin safely.
    They also fight fleas and smell nice too.  Lavender has excellent
    healing qualities for skin irritations and cuts, bites, I use it all
    the time on the many cuts I get working in the garden.  I am sure the
    strong smell would repel fleas.  Cedar also is excellent for this,
    especially in bedding materials.
    

    You can use Zinc ointment to promote healing on the scars left behind
    by those nasty flea bites.  Yup, that white ointment that some people
    use on their noses at the beach to block out the sun, zinc ointment.
    Cheap too!  Maybe $1.29 @ CVS stores.
    
    At Elizabeth Grady Face salons they put zinc powder on to promote
    healing of scars & blemishes, they gave me the idea of the ointment. 
    I'd never be without a tube now.

    
    These are all great ideas - thank you very much!  
    
    

  Our presentation was way back at the start of the year and I don't remember
the reason. I *think* .127's supposition is correct that while the drugs move to
the animal's outer tissue (eg skin/fat) instead of internal organs, it still
needs to be broken down in the stomach, etc. to do so, and dogs do a better job
at that than do cats. I checked the Program brochures last night & there was no
800-number to call for info, though you could always call Ciba-Geigy if you're
the type that can't rest until you have an answer :-)

						Trace

    Another one of natures wonders is Tea Tree Oil.
    
    You can get several brands of tea tree oil shampoos made for humans,
    but work just fine on cats (there are even cruelty free brands).
    
    Since the oil is a bit strong, we mix tea tree oil shampoo with regular
    shampoo. The cats smeel great, and it KILLS fleas on contact.
    
    We have 5 cats, and have not had fleas in over three years.
    

    Re: .134
    
    Right :-)  once, then the cat never goes near the cat door again :-)
    

    I picked up a leaflet in my vet's office yesterday about a new
    product called Advantage.  Supposedly you put 2-3 drops on a cat
    once a month and it kills adult fleas before they bite the cat.
    They didn't have any in stock at my vet's yet, and I was on my way out
    the door, so I know zilch else.  The leaflet has a phone number
    1-800-NOFLEAS.
    

I just wanted to tell you all about CONTROL.  My vet reccomended it a few
months back.  I bombed my house, and it had stated on the directions that it
kills fleas,flies etc for up to 6mo (or was it a yr) anyway... I didn't 
belive it - but I used it anyway. 

Well, 2 months later I belive it!  My house gets alot of flies, mostly due
to my husband who can [[NEVER]] shut the new sliding screen door behind him.
He says he's olny going out of a moment to turn the steak over on the grill - 
so he can't be botherd to shut the door

Note:  he never shuts anything - you know when he's been in the kitchen - every
cabinet is open -- MEN :-)

Anyway... every day he must let in 6 to 200000 files.  But, by the next day
they are all [[[DEAD]]] I find them on my kitchen floor, on my bed etc.....

I am happy that they are dead, and it probally means that the fleas are 
dead too - but it make me wonder why arn't I dead :-) or my bird...

None of us have been sick or anything, so I'll try not to worry - I'm just
gald I'm Flea-Free :-)

Lou

So if your cats can't deal with the liquid, you now have another option.

						Trace

    My mother has been using Advantage(?) on Penelope for a while now and
    she has been flea & tick free (dispite the fact that they live in a
    heavily wooded rural area). This is the stuff that you just put a drop
    of liquid between the cat's shoulder blades.
    
    Deb