Conference misery::feline

    I'll start.
    
    Tabby describes the coat pattern; stripes.  Seal is a color (dark
    brown).  Sealpoint means the dark brown color is confined to the outer
    extremities (ears, legs, feet, tail...).
    
    Tabby is not a breed in itself and the striped pattern applies to many
    different breeds such as the Maine Coon, Norwegian Forest Cat, American
    Shorthair, Scottish Fold, to name a few.  In addition, there are 3
    different tabby patterns:  Classic (bulls-eyes and bracelets); mackerel
    (straight stripes) and spotted.  The tabby pattern can also be confined
    to the points.  These are called lynxpoints.  For example, a seal
    lynxpoint pattern would be dark brown tabby stripes on the outer
    extremities of the body.  Many garden variety cats (mutt cats) display
    the tabby pattern.
    
    Other colors are blue (grey), chocolate, lilac, red, flame, and cream. 
    These colors can also be found in the pointed varieties of cats.
    
    Cats that come in pointed patterns are Siamese, Himalayan, Birmans,
    Ragdolls, and Javanese to name a few.
    
    This is just a quick reply to .1.  I'm sure others can even further
    elaborate on it.
    
    -Roberta
    

    Himalyan = division of the Persian breed, comes in the traditional
               colors (seal point, blue point, chocolate point, and lilac
      	       point) plus red point, tortie point, blue cream point, 
    	       cream point, and all colors of lynx point.
    
    Siamese = only comes in 4 traditional colors
    	  
    Colorpoint Shorthair = same body style as siamese, but comes in the
    	                   colors other than the 4 traditional (for
    			   example, red point, tortie point, lynx point)
    
    Balinese = longhaired siamese, but only comes in the 4 traditional
               colors
    
    Javanese = same body style as the Balinese but comes in the
    	       non-traditional color points
    
    Birman = longhaired cat with white feet, color points.  CFA recognizes
    	     them only in the 4 traditional colors.  TICA recognizes all 
    	     traditional and non-traditional colors.
    
    Ragdoll = longhaired cat, sometimes color pointed, sometimes bi-color,
    	      sometimes color pointed with white feet.  Comes in
     	      traditional color points.  Not recognized in CFA.
    
    
    Jo

    re .2
    Jo, did I miss something?  I have both a seal tortie and red point
    "siamese".  I have always considered them Siamese.  Does CFA call them
    colorpoint shorthair?  They are registered as Siamese in ACFA and TICA.
    
    Karen-who-has-been-away-from-breeding-and-shows-for-several-years-and-feels-
    stupid-asking-this-question

    You didn't miss anything, CFA doesn't call seal tortie or red points
    Siamese, they call them Colorpoint Shorthairs.  TICA and ACFA call them
    Siamese.  Same cats, different colors, different names.  They did it this
    way because not all breeders wanted to work with those colors, and by
    keeping them as a separate gene pool, there was no worry about having
    one of the non-traditional colors or patterns pop up in a litter.  Siamese 
    and Colorpoints can be bred together, but the resulting litter will be 
    called Colorpoints.  I think that they go so far as to say that any solid 
    point offspring (traditional colors) have to be registered as "variants" 
    not as Siamese.
    
    Same is true of Balinese and Javanese.  Those breeders can breed to
    Siamese to bring in type, but any shorthaired offspring have to be
    registered as Balinese variants or Javanese variants rather than
    Siamese.
    
    I think they just wanted to keep the rest of the fancy on their toes!
    ;')
    
    
    Jo
    
    PS - In CFA we call them "flame points" if they are Himmies and "red
    points" if they are Colorpoint Shorthairs!  What a hoot! 8'D
    
    

    Thanks Jo!  :-)  In my heart and mind they are true Siamese, regardless
    of what the associations say.
    
    Karen

    I'll add my 2 cents.
    
    I was told that the definition of a calico is as follows:
    
    A cat that is mostly white with islands of red and black that are
    2 inches or less in diameter and that DO NOT TOUCH.  If they touch
    the cat is considered a tortie and white.  The dilute versions
    of this would be blue and cream (grey and beige).
    
    Tortoishell - a red and black cat.  The red and black can look like
    brush strokes or can be large islands of color.   Tortie is short
    for tortoishell.
    
    Torbie - this word is a combination of tabby + tortie.  It refers
    to a tortoishell cat with tabby markings.  Another name for a torbie
    is a "patched tabby".  These are cats that are silver OR brown tabbies
    with patches of red tabby.  
    
    

    
    Re: .6  Don't forget blue patched tabbies...
    
    
    

You guys are great!  Now all we need is a way to include sample pictures with
the descriptions. :-)  I think I'll bring a printout home, and read it with
some of my cat books beside me (which I buy mostly for the pictures :-)).  I
guess that's the next best thing!

My next question is:  it sounds like I'm correct referring to my grey/black
tiger kittens as tabby, though "tiger" might be more descriptive to indicate
the stripes are straight, although it isn't one of the "choices" of tabby.
Is this right?

Jill

    In CFA, a cat that is white with large defined areas of black and red
    is a calico.  The black and red can touch and the cat will still be a
    calico.  A  white cat with defined areas of blue and cream would be 
    called a dilute calico.
    
    A tortoiseshell is a cat that is black and orange but does not have
    defined areas of black and orange.  The colors are co-mingled.  A
    tortoiseshell does not have white on it.  The dilute version of a
    tortoisehell is called a blue-cream.
    
    In CFA, a tortie Persian would compete in the Parti-color class, while
    a calico Persian would compete in the Bi-color class.  
    
    To throw another definition at you, a Van is a cat that is white, with
    other colors allowed only on the extremities (head, legs, tail) and
    with only two spots of color on the body.  Vans can be bi-colored
    (black and white, blue and white, red and white) or be van calico or
    dilute van calico (white cat with black and orange on the legs, head,
    tail and two spots on the body).  The Japanese Bobtail color of Mike is
    a Van Calico pattern.
    
    Mike - pronounced meekay, the name of a color pattern in Japanese
    Bobtails that describes a cat of the Van Calico pattern.
    
    CFA doesn't recognize Torbies.  Those female cats that are brown tabby
    with patches of red, or silver tabby with patches of cream are called
    Patched Tabby.
    
    By the way, Mike, Calico, Tortoiseshell, Patched Tabby, Blue-cream, and
    Dilute Calico, any combination of either red and black, or cream and
    blue, or brown tabby with red, or silver tabby with cream all have to
    be female.  Genetically these genes are sex-linked and will show
    themselves only in females (there have been rare exceptions, but
    usually those males that end up with these colors are sterile).
    
    Jo
    

    I'm like Jill..this note is great...but there are so many
    colors and types...I find it hard to determine what my cats
    are.  So Jill...if your lucky you work near someone like
    Roberta Kagno...who I use as my expert to help identify the
    different colors/types by showing her pictures.
    
    Sandy

    Jill, if your kittens are tabbies with stripes, then they are called
    Mackerel Tabbies. :')
    
    Enter your cats descriptions here and we will give it our best shots.
    
    Jo

    Blush!  Why thank you, Sandy.  What a nice thing to say.  :^)
    
    Maybe we should start another picture swap for those folks who would
    like to learn more about the various colors and patterns of cats.
    

    My aunt had a siamese that had speckles on her nose - they were kind of
    liver/blue/brown colored and I was always told she was a tortoise shell
    siamese. - She was beautiful.
    
    But what was she really, since the descriptions in here say that a 
    tortie point is red and black or orange and black?
    
    It's much easier to tell with dogs.
    
    helen-who-is-only-now-becoming-a-cat-person (and likes it!)

    OK, I need to have my little Alexandra "defined".
    
    She is grey (or tan - depending on the phase of the moon), with dark
    grey stripes.  There are some dark grey spots between the stripes.  She
    has white only around her eyes and mouth (no "bib" or "socks") and
    under her tail and her belly (and the stripes go ALL the way around
    her).  And she has a very big, very dark "M" on her forehead.
    
    I've been told that this is "Tiger", but also "Tabby".  Help!
    
    Also, one to add to the color list - Sable.  Sable is a dark, dark, dark, 
    dark, dark, almost-but-not-quite-black brown.  Darker than chocolate. 
    (I got this one from a book - my Rico is a sable Burmese).
    
    K.C.

    re: .13
    
    In the cat fancy, grey is called blue, and brown is called either
    chocolate or seal, depending on the type of cat (Havana's are
    chocolate, but brown legs on a pointed cat can either be seal (most
    likely) or chocolate (which is a dilute color and more rare).
    
    Okay, on siamese, if the cat is a tortie, it can be either chocolate
    tortie (chocolate points with cream flecks in it), or seal tortie (seal
    points with darker cream flecks in it (where the darker cream == red).
    
    I am not sure what color you mean by liver.  And, generally, blue and
    seal won't be found on the same cat since blue is the dilute of seal. 
    Did the cat exhibit any tabby markings on the points?
    
    This is really hard to do without pictures. :')
    
    Jo

    re: .14
    
    Okay, Alexandra...What color are her eyes, and what color is the fur on
    the bottoms of her feet?  She is probably a mackerel tabby (hence the M
    on the forehead, stripes, white around the eyes, etc).  My first guess
    would be a blue tabby.  If her eyes are green though, and her fur on
    the bottoms of her feet is black, and/or her nose leather is redish
    brick color, then she is probably a silver tabby.
    
    Blue cats will have copper or gold eyes and their ground color (the
    color under the pattern or stripes) will be tan.  Silver cats will have 
    green eyes, black outlined noses and eyelids, and black fur on the bottoms of
    their feet.  
    
    
    Also, sable is the same color as seal, but it is called Sable in
    the Burmese breed where the whole cat is that color.  In pointed cats,
    the seal coloring (or whatever color the points are) is restricted to
    the points.
    
    Jo

    re: 15
    
    Elsa was a cream color all over, yet with bluish and tannish and dark
    brown spots on her nose. The spots were very small, giving the
    impression that someone had dripped a paintbrush on her. 
    
    
    It's hard to remember exactly. She passed on a few years ago and
    I've always wanted a cat that looked like her.
    
    I guess I'm calling tan "liver" since one of my dogs is called 
    "liver" and she's brown.  (Well, she's CALLED Ding, but she's
    DESCRIBED as liver.)  :^)
    
    I guess I'm just passing on confusion. Sorry.
    
    helen

    So the only places that she had color were on her face?  Not on her
    legs?  Cream body all over with no color on her legs or tail or ears?
    
    Sounds very interesting but without a picture I would be hard pressed
    to figure this one out. :')  Without the color on her other points, she
    wouldn't be displaying the normal pointed pattern for a siamese.
    
    Jo

    Re: .16 re: .14
    
    Her eyes are the exact color of her "base" fur (meaning grey or
    grey-tan, depending on...)  Her nose matches her stripes, and her foot
    fur is the same color as her "base" fur.
    
    What is the difference between a mackerel tabby and a blue tabby?
    
    K.C.

    Blue is a color.  Mackerel is a pattern.  So, she could be a blue
    mackerel tabby.
    
    So, she has grey eyes??  Take a look at them tonight when you get home
    and then tell me again tomorrow.  I suspect that they are
    copper/gold/yellow.
    
    Jo

    My tabbies all have M's on their foreheads and they are very obviously
    Classic tabbies.  
      Nancy
    
    p.s. If Alexandra is a kitten then she probably doesn't have her
    eye color yet.
    

         Bigfoot is definitely a Mackeral tabby.  However, I don't know
    what color.  His stripes are black.  His background (?) is ticked with
    bands of black, dark brown, light brown and a dash of silver.
    
         So what color is he??
    
    					- Andrea

    I very carefully studied little Alex last night (usually she loves to
    be cuddled, but since I was trying to get the best description
    possible, of COURSE she would be uncooperative).
    
    Her fur is grey, with itsy bitsy bits of light brown near the neck and
    paws (hardly noticeable, unless she's right in the light).  Her stripes
    are very, very dark grey - almost black, as is the fur on the bottoms
    of her feet, her nose, her pads, and her "M".  She also has dark "eye
    liner" (she's too YOUNG for makeup!  ;^) ).  She has white around her
    eyeliner, under her belly, her tail, and her chin - no bib.  And Nancy's 
    right...her eyes haven't decided what color they're going to be (My heart 
    broke when they started to change from the lovely shade of lavender that 
    they were when we first got her).  Right now they are fighting between 
    grey, gold and green.  She is ALMOST 5 months old.
    
    And we've decided that the "M" stands for "Monster" - she rears up with
    her arms out in what we call a "monster pose".  ;^)
    
    K.C.

    
    
    	Another quiz....can you tell me what my Siamese is called?
    
    	She is almost white, but alittle to the cream coloring on most of
    	her body.  She has a dark brown face - but not all of her face is
    	brown just her nose and around her eyes.  What I'm, trying to say
    	is that her cheeks(face) are cream color like her body.  Her 
    	front and back legs are chocolate as is her tail and ears. She is
    	a little darker around her hips.  Her eyes are real blue.  Her
    	mother was a sealpoint - never meet her "dad", but he was suppose
    	to be a Siamese too.  When she was a baby - she had only a real
    	dark chocolate nose/ears/feet and she was almost white in color.
    	She has darkened as she has got older. She has a pointed face and her      
    	ears seems to be taller than my other Siamese who has a much
    	rounder face and all of her face is chocolate.
    
    	People who see her for the first time always remark how beautiful
    	she is (of course), but they also remark how soft her fur is.  I
    	never owned a cat with such silky fur.  My other Siamese has nice
    	fur but not early as silky as Ashley. (FYI She's shorthaired).            
    
    	All guess are welcomed and appreciated.
    
    	-dee

    re: .21  Nancy, I didn't mean to lead folks to think that only Mackerel
    tabbies have M's on their foreheads.  All tabbies have M's on their
    foreheads.
    
    re:.23
    
    Going from your further description of her color, her age, and her eye
    color, I am going out on a limb and calling her a silver mackerel
    tabby.  But, disclaimer, we did this from color descriptions not
    pictures so we could be wrong. :')
    
    Jo

    re: .24
    
    Your girl *may* be a chocolate.  That is a dilute color and less
    common, but the mask on a dilute is never as complete as with seals or
    blues.  The dilutes usually have a T mask (I know, weird name for it). 
    Anyway, the color usually concentrates on the nose and around the eyes
    and gets much fainter on the cheeks.
    
    She may also be a seal point with poor cheek color.  It depends on the
    tone of her points.  Seal is a very rich, deep, brown color, almost
    black.  Chocolate is the tone of milk chocolate, with a pinkish cast.
    
    Since point color is subject to environmental changes, so you have to
    tell us if she has always had the lack of color on her cheeks or if
    this is something new.  Point color can get "ticking" in it, that is,
    white or light hairs in the points due to environmental changes or
    illness.  The ticking throws off some people.  Ticking does go away
    though and the cats mask goes back to normal.
    
    Jo

    Dee,
    
    Maybe I can help, as I have both a sealpoint Ragdoll cat and chocolate
    point Siamese cross.
    
    Jo is right.  The chocolate is a warm, milk chocolate, like the
    color of a Hershey bar.  Taja's body is ivory, with subtle chocolate
    shading across the back and haunches.  The point color on his face is
    darker around the eyes and outside of the face than it is on the
    whisker pads.  The tip of his nose is brick red (sometimes called burnt
    rose).  This color nose leather is usually indicative of a true
    chocolate point, although it is hard to capture in pictures.  The light
    has to be just right.
    
    Kelsey, my seal point, has very dark, almost black point color and his
    facial mask is complete.  There are no broken areas of cream.  (Some
    seals do have separate areas of color on the face and are sometimes
    mistaken for chocolates for this reason.)  When in doubt in determining
    if the cat is seal or chocolate, look at the paw pads.  A sealpoint
    will have dark brown paw pads like the point color.  A chocolate will
    have brick red paw pads to match the nose leather.
    
    If you'd like, I can send you some pictures of Kelsey and Taja so you
    can see the differences in color.
    
    --Roberta (who feels fortunate to own a chocolate point!  Taja is a
               strikingly beautiful cat.  Thanks JJ and Barbara!!)
     

    One more elaboration on chocolate/seal:
    
    The body color of a chocolate is ivory/white with subtle shadings where the
    sealpoint is creamy white (like coffee with a lot of cream in it) with
    more prominent shading.  Kelsey is a very dark sealpoint, but your
    mileage does vary.
    

    I have found body color to vary so much with different lines within a 
    breed or even within a color division, that I don't even try to describe 
    it anymore.
    
    The body color can range from creamy white to a color just slightly
    lighter than the point color.  In my breed, as long as there is
    definition between the point color and the body color, either way is
    okay.  Most pet buyers tell me that they want a Birman that will stay
    white, but I prefer the coat color once the body has shaded.
    
    Jo

    Out of curiosity, about how much longer do we wait 'til Alex is fully
    "marked"?
    
    K.C.

    With the exceptions of cats with points, and solid white cats, cats
    color and pattern should be fully visible at birth and shouldn't really
    change.  The color may intensify, but not change with age.
    
    Cats of the pointed variety are born white and will start developing
    point color within hours of birth.  The complete points will be visible
    to some degree by the time they are 3-4 months old (with a few
    exceptions).
    
    Solid white cats will often have a "smudge" of color on their
    foreheads.  This bit of color tells you what color the cat would have
    been if the white hadn't masked it.  It also tells you what color the
    cat is genetically, in the case of breeding cats.  That smudge of color
    will disappear, usually when the cat is between 8-12 months old.
    
    All cats are born with blue eyes.  At about 6-8 weeks the eye color
    begins changing.  Usually by 4 months the adult eye color will be in,
    but it can continue to intensify with age.  It shouldn't change though,
    just deepen.
      
    Jo

    Re. .22:
    
         When I mean Bigfoot's fur is ticked, I mean that each individual
    hair has bands of black, dark brown, light brown and sometimes silver.
    
         Still waiting for a color determination ... ;-) ...

    Based on what I learned in this note, I informed Poppy last night
    that she's not calico, as we've been telling her, but tortie-and-
    white. She gave me that silly head tilt that cats give, meowed,
    and went to the basement to think about it.
    
    I have a question. I read in a book that it's very characteristic
    of calicos and torties to have orange- or ginger-colored ears, which 
    Poppy does. Is it also common for them to have "moustaches?" Many of
    them seem to. Poppy does (even the skin on her nose is black), 
    and 3 of my sister's 4 do.
    
    Just curious.
    
    kate
     

    Re: .33
    
    It sometimes happens that torties and calico's will have orange on
    their face or ears, but I wouldn't say that it is characteristic or
    expected.  The color will fall where it will fall.  That is what is so
    fun about bi-colors, and calicos and torties.  You can never predict
    how their pattern will come out.
    
    Jo

    re: .32
    
    Does Bigfoot show any tabby pattern on his body at all?  Does he has
    any tabby markings on his legs or tail or face?  
    
    The individual bands of color on each hair describe the ticked tabby
    pattern.  The ticked tabby pattern is the one that you seen on
    Abyssinians.  Each hair has several bands of color on it.
    
    Generally, I haven't seen too many cats that have the combination of
    black, brown, and silver.  Again, it is difficult to describe some of
    these colors in words.  But, from what you have given me, I would say
    that Bigfoot is a ticked tabby (some people like to refer to them as
    Aby tabby ;'})
    
    Jo

    One of my cats sounds similar to BIGFOOT.  Rosie is white with ticked
    patches and black markings.  She was classified in HHP as a classic brown
    and white tabby (TICA) even though her tail is silver and black.  She has
    the M and stripes where she is not white. Her ticking is banded black, 
    brown and light brown, I think it's called agouti.
    
    Linda
    

    If Rosie was classified at a TICA show as a classic tabby, then there
    must have been enough of the bulleye's and swirls of the classic
    pattern for them to tell that.  If so, then she isn't a ticked tabby. 
    Classic tabby is quite distinctive and hard to miss.
    
    The thing that you have to remember about the difference between ticked
    tabby and other tabby patterns is that we are talking about a patterned
    cat with a ground color.  On a classic or mackerel tabby, some of the
    hairs will have more than one color on them, that is what makes up the
    pattern.  On a ticked tabby, there must be at least three bands of
    distinct color on each hair.
    
    Jo
    

    Snoopy is tortie and white, I guess.  We always called her calico. 
    Most of her body is black and orange, big huge patches of each color
    that have many shared boundaries.  Her chin, chest, belly, and feet are
    white with a few small patches of orange or black.  Her head is mostly 
    black except for an orange spot on one ear and a white stripe on her
    nose (what do you call the part of the face the whiskers grow from? 
    That's white, too.)  The white stripe is bordered in orange; I don't
    think she has white meeting black anywhere.
    
    So if she didn't have the white, she'd be a tortie?  And if she were
    mostly white with the black and orange patches spread out, she'd be a
    calico?
    
    Lisa Dean and Snoopy (Doorstop cat)

    	reply to .26, .27 & .28
    
    	Thanks for your quick replies.  Well I went home and checked out
    	Ashley.  From your descriptions I think she's a chocolate.  The
    	bottom of her paws are more brick red than chocolate.  I put her
    	next to my Sealpoint Siamese and she is definitely lighter on
    	her points.  When she was a baby, her nose looked like someone
    	smudged her with dirt - because everything on her was almost
    	white except her nose and feet and tail.
    
    	Re: Roberta
    
    	I'd love to see a picture of your Kelsey and Taja so I can see the
    	difference in color.  I would alos like to send one of Ashley so
    	you can confirm if she really is a chocolate.  I'll contact you
    	off line regarding logistics.
    
    	Thanks folks.
    
    	-dee
    

    Re. .35
    
         Yes, indeed, Bigfoot does have tabby markings.  So let me try to
    describe him again (it's so hard with words ;-) ):
    
         Black tabby stripes, mackeral tabby pattern.  The hairs that make
    up the stripes are all black, no ticking or banding.
    
         Kind of a beige/tan color on his belly.  Again, no ticking here.
    
         The rest of him (his "background"?) : ticked hairs, each hair with
    at least three bands of color.  The colors can be any combination of
    black, dark brown, light brown and silver (no two hairs alike ;-) ).
    
         Does this sound like an Aby Tabby?
    
    					- Andrea
    
    P.S.  Do Aby Tabby's come with double paws?  He's got 7 toes in front, 
    5 in back).

         Oh, yes, Bigfoot has green eyes too.  One of the vets at the place
    I use said that green eyes were unusual - usually they are copper.  Is
    this true?

    Okay, Dee.  We'll further our discussion in mail!
    
    -Roberta
    

    re .40.
    
    If Bigfoot shows any tabby pattern at all on his body, then he is not a
    Aby tabby.  An Aby tabby will have full ticking over the entire body,
    no tabby pattern.  But, they will have the rings on the legs and the
    tabby markings on the face.  From the sounds of it, I would say he was
    a brown mackeral tabby from your color descriptions, but given his
    green eyes, he is probably a silver tabby.  The green eye color goes
    along with the silver gene.  If he were a brown tabby, he would have
    gold or copper eyes.
    
    re. the tortie and white of Lisa Dean's...
    
    From the description you entered, I would say she is a calico, not a
    tortie and white, but in another association she would probably be a
    tortie and white.  
    
    Further clarification on the difference is that a calico is a white cat
    with splotches of black and red on it (doesn't matter if they run
    together, and it doesn't matter how much white, although it is prefered
    that they have a white ring around the neck coming up from the chest). 
    A Tortie is a black cat with splotches of red and cream (no white).
    
    CFA doesn't recognize Torbies.
    
    Jo

         Maybe he's a mutation between brown and silver; he only has a
    little bit on silver on him, like a sprinkling of snow.  Weird, but
    handsome 8-) !

    
    
    		Does anyone know what three colors a money
    		cat is supposed to be?. My mom says there 
    		are two types of money cats with different
    		colors. She has a (tortie) orange, black and
    		white. Whats the name of the other type and what
    		color are they?
    		
    		Thanks,
    
    		Liz

    Hi Liz,
    
    The other type of money cat is called a calico.  I think that refers
    to a coat that is primarily white with unbroken patches of black and
    red (orange).  The tortie colors blend together and I believe the white
    is more cream.
    
    Anyway, there is a note on breed descriptions and colors already. 
    Perhaps the moderators can move your note and my reply to it if it is
    deemed necessary.
    
    -Roberta
    

    
    I wanted to elaborate more on the classic Tabby pattern.  It never
    ceases to amaze me what beautiful things Mother Nature can create. It
    is truly a work of art.
    
    Along with the ringing on the tail, the bracelets on the legs and
    chest, the bulls-eyes on the side, other segments of the pattern
    add to its beauty.  The frown marks on the forehead that create the 
    intricate "M" extend up and over the back of the head in vertical lines 
    down to the shoulder markings. The shoulder markings are in the shape of 
    a butterfly with both upper and lower wings.  The back markings are a 
    vertical line down the spine from the butterfly to the tail with a vertical
    stripe paralleling it on each side, the three stripes separated by stripes
    of the ground color. One of my favorite parts of the pattern is the
    unbroken line that runs back from the outer corner of the eye, adding
    to the facial expression.
    
                  

I've been really curious about the cats that my parents own.  Anybody care
to give them a shot in terms of breed?

Lewis & Clark the ThunderKitties are brothers.  They are long-hair, orange,
with white underbellies and white markings on the nose and feet.  They are
HUGE, tipping the scales at 15-18 pounds each (and the vet says they are
definitely healthy, and not overweight!).  They had blue eyes as kittens,
green eyes as adults.  Another distinguishing characteristic about these 
cats is they talk *constantly*.  

Maybe this is an inappropriate place to discuss their potential breed.
They are pets, not show kitties, and their ancestry is uncertain (they
were born on a golf course - their mama got eaten by a bobcat - seriously).

Anyway, what do you any of you think?  Is there a category anywhere for
"Incredible Hulk Orange Cats?"  :-)

/chris

    In most cases, breed characteristics go beyond color.  There has to be
    something else there besides color in order to determine what breed a
    cat might resemble.  Red is a common color in the cat fancy, and there
    can be red Persians, red Exotics, red American Shorthairs, red Oriental
    Shorthairs, etc.  It would be nearly impossible to tell what breeds may
    have been in your cats ancestry.  It could just be that they come from
    a very long line of "domestic" cats.
    
    If they are shorthairs I would call them Domestic Shorthairs, and if
    longhaired, Domestic Longhairs. :')  Actually, from the sounds of it, I
    would probably call your parent's cats Maine Coon Look-A-Likes. :')
    I have two of those myself.
    
    Also, all kittens and puppies are born with blue eyes.  Their true eye
    color will start to become apparent when they are between 8-12 weeks
    old.
    
    Jo
    

Well, I started the basenote, and have been examining my kittens ever since
trying to determine what color they are!  Color has never been my strong point.
They are all three Domestic Shorthair mackerel tabbies (though Hemi has a white
bib/belly and paws, and a few white highlights).  The ground color (I almost
said base coat :-)) is tan, and the stripes are black.  I'm still working on the
rest. :-) I think they are ticked but am not sure.  I'll be back with the rest
next week.  Also, do the stripes all have to be continuous?

Tigger is a red mackerel tabby.  No question about that one. :-)

    On most silver tabbies, the ground color is silverish, and the stripes
    are BLACK.  On a brown tabby, the ground color is beige and the stripes
    are dark blue.  On a blue tabby, the ground color is fawn (has a
    tannish cast to it) and the stripes are grey.  Silver tabbies will have
    green eyes, blue tabbies will have copper or gold eyes.  Most laymen
    call both silver tabbies and blue tabbies "grey tabbies".  The eye
    color and the color of the stripes should help you distinguish between
    the colors.
    
    If there is any pattern at all on the body, then the cat cannot be a
    ticked tabby.  The ticking replaces tabby markings on the body.  Ticked
    tabbies will still have the stripings on their legs, tail and face
    though.
    
    Not all the stripes will be complete or continuous.  Some may break up. 
    
    Jo

BTW, genetically, silver tabbies can have copper (orange, gold, whatever
depending on breed) eyes.  That sure helps to make things less clear.  :^O

That can happen when a (say) black smoke meets up with a (say) brown tabby 
and they decide to have a family.  :^)

Silver tabbies from shaded silvers (green-eyed critters) and from
green-eyed silver tabbies will be greenies.

Molly says when a green-eyed parent makes kittens with an orange/copper eye
parent the offspring tend to have a "neither-nor" eye color that's something
like yellow.  

K.

    I am hoping Feliners can help me identify a possible breed.  
    
    In the process of looking for my missing Robbie I found another cat.  
    When trying to describe him for a newspaper add it occured to me that 
    maybe he is a particular breed.  Here goes:
    
    - Has the shape and walk of a miniture puma
    - Grey spotty tiger markings
    - Long legs (about 1 1/2 inches longer that usual) with large paws,
    - Long body--about 4 inches longer than even our largest cat 
    - 3 thumbs on each front paw (7 claws each paw total) 
    - Double paws on back
    - The largest green eyes I have ever seen on a cat, round with a 
      worried expression
    - Soft, fine fur
    - Exceptionally sweet nature
    - Large appitite
    - Runs like the wind and climbs trees to the top
    - Covers his unwanted food like a Big Cat.
    
    So, Feliners, any ideas what this cat is (other than a really pretty
    common-or-garden moggie)?
    
   (I hope I can eventually connect with the owners as someone loved this 
    cat very much.)
    

    Maybe you found an ocelot!!
    
    Sheesh... I'm not even going to try to attempt this one!
    
    How much do you think the sucker weighs?!
    
    --Roberta (who thinks you found a very large, polydactyl [double pawed]
               domestic shorthair feline but anything is possible!!)
    

    Roberta, my guess he weighs about the same as a Maine coon cat, at the
    moment. 
    
    UPDATE:  Christopher has grown a little since I entered my last note.  I
    should also have said he has a broad face and bigish head.  I have kept
    cats for 45 years and I have never seen one like this before.  If we
    have another Feliners dinner I will bring photos.
    
    Rosemary Gaskell

    This probably don't belong in this note...but I'll ask anyway!!!
    
      I have some cats with white whiskers, some cats with black whiskers,
    but my little Dewey who is orange has black and white whisker together.
    WHY????   Will they change????
    
    Sandy

>      I have some cats with white whiskers, some cats with black whiskers,
>    but my little Dewey who is orange has black and white whisker together.
>    WHY????   Will they change????
    
Sandy,

they seem to come in on Hana's face in random patterns of white and black..
sometime she will get black ones.  I think it is random.  and yes it will
change.

    Birmans often have whiskers that are part black and part white.  Since
    whisker color isn't defined in the standard for our breed (some breeds
    have it defined in the standard), I don't worry about it.
    
    Jo

here I am again:

Hana is my hybrid cat - part siamese for sure, probably some persian or
short-haired exotic - and her whiskers come in in a variety of colors -
sometimes.  They do change around, and now she is sporting all white
whiskers.  At any rate, they do change, they will change, and I don't
see a pattern.  Dilly, my Birman, has white and gray whiskers (sometimes)..
so - I think the cat does whatever she feels like in the whisker department...


				D  8^}

    Well with mine; Amelia and Carrie have all white whiskers.  Onyx
    has all black whiskers.  Bailey, being Bailey, has a mix of white
    whiskers and black whiskers.  Goes quite nicely with her blue-cream
    coloring I might add.
    
    Jan

    
    	I don't know if anyone mentioned it already, but I came across
    	this bit of trivia yesterday. `Tabby' is derived from a street
    	named Atab in Bagdad. 

    On to a discussion of paw pad colors....
    pink
    black
    pink and black on the same cute little foot (excuse me, paw)
    copper (my orange cat nephew)
    

    Paw pad color is usually linked to coat color.  Interesting note, red
    and cream cats can get freckles of black in their nose leather, gums,
    eye lids and paw pads as they age.
    
    Birmans are considered a bi-colored cat and are allowed to have pink
    and black paw pads.  The standard states that pink are prefered tho.  I
    have had one kitten that had all black paw pads, and when you looked at
    this huge white foot with all dark pads, you would swear you would
    looking at the foot of a panda bear.  So cute! 8')
    
    Jo

    Zelda has a small black mark like a beauty mark on one of her pads. She
    also has a small black spot on the roof of her mouth which we noticed 
    when she was on her back yawning.  :^)
    
    Are these "freckles"?  

    If she is red or cream, they are probably freckles.
    
    Jo

    Nope, she is mostly black with a few white spots here and there.
    Must be beauty marks then. :^)

    
    Robin is mostly white but she has a black nose...just the leather--
    the fur is pure white, but all her paw pads are black.  Again, all the
    surrounding fur is white.  Biff has pink and grey paw pads.  Mikey,
    who looks so much like Robin I can barely tell them apart, has mixed
    leather (sounds kinda kinky!).  Beth, who is a tortie, has multicoloured
    toes and a multicoloured nose.  Julie, my red-haired girl, has the
    cutest freckles all over her nose and lips.  She looks so cute!
    Cream point Chauncey wouldn't dare have freckles...they're so, well, he
    thinks they're just too common for someone of his breeding.....
    
    Mary
    

    Well that also explains the little black dots Dewey (Red) is
    getting on his nose!!!!  I thought he had gotten into something
    he shouldn't have...but I couldn't wipe it off!  The poor guy....
    I feel bad for rubbing his nose now!!!!
    
    God...you learn something new in this file everyday!!
    
    Sandy
    
    

Ya, well, don't feel bad about rubbing his nose....I took Julie to the vet
cause I thought she had sores......

All these cats and I'm still doing dumb stuff...

Mary

    Boy am I glad to see this note. Mocha has pink, white and black pads
    on his feet. One hind food, (fur is all white) has all black pads
    but the others are some and some. His two hind feet are white fur
    and he has white mittens on his front feet.  I of course
    attibuted it to him, he's a strange cat in many ways.
    
    Barbara

    I think, in general, I'd ask the vet if a cat developed some
    new black areas on the nose, chin, etc, just to be safe.  Unless
    you're absolutely certain it isn't feline acne or a potentially
    harmful growth.
    

Well, a flame-point of any breed, or just a pink-nosed cat for that matter,
quite commonly get freckles - Missy Hana has developed several on her nose
and one on her lip.  However, they are small and flat discolorations...any
mark that has any size, or that has "texture", or that has an angry, inflamed
appearance is a candidate for a visit to the vet ASAP.  

    They get freckles as they age? Hmmm, Liver Spots? ;-) 
     
    Sorry, couldn't resist!
    
     Love,
     Y
     

    I just read through this entire note trying to identify a type of cat
    I've been admiring for some time. In one of the Friskies "What's got
    into that cat" commercials, there is a tabby with very bold stripes
    who appears blue. Has this one been described in here and if so (or
    not) can someone tell me what it's called? I would like to find one
    like it for a present to my wife (and our other 2 cats who probably
    won't be too thrilled about it initially!)
    
    Thanks/Keith
    

    Keith,
    
    The pattern you are referring to is called classic tabby.  The breed is
    called American Shorthair, although the classic tabby pattern can be
    found on many other breeds of cat as well.  Am Sh's are noted for their
    striking classic tabby pattern.
    
    I cannot recall the particular cat you describe on the commercial;
    however, the Amercian Shorthair fits your description.  I see we share
    the same node name.  I'm located in SHR1, and have lots of cat photos
    in my office as well as a calendar featuring an AM SH cat.  I would be
    happy to help you if you want to stop by and see if the cat on the
    calendar matches your description.
    
    Classic tabbies come in silver with black stripes (very striking
    pattern!), brown with black stripes, and blue (grey) with tan (?)
    stripes.
    
    Hope this info helps!
    
    -Roberta
    

    Don't forget us - British Shorthairs!  True AM SH are more common
    but ... don't forget us in the tabby stakes!  :)
    
    
    

    Can someone tell me if there is such a breed as BR SH blue-grey and
    beige/brown tabby?
    
    We've always said Murphy was more of a bluey/lilac colouring and he
    definitely has the tabby markings.
    
    Thanks
    Tracy

    The breeders in this file are much better at colours than I, 
    however BR SH (the breed) do come in that colour - I think it is call 
    blue cream - a friend has one - I always refer to it as the peach coloured
    cat.  As far as I know this colour shouldn't have tabby markings - but with 
    unknown parentage anything can happen and frequently does. 

    
    A blue cream is a blue-grey (the lighter the better) cat with solid patches
    of cream .  There are no tabby markings. As mentioned earlier, tabby colors
    and patterns are not breed specific. The "ground color" determines what the 
    exact color is.  A blue tabby whether it be an American Shorthair, a 
    British Shorthair or an Exotic Shorthair is a blue (gray) cat with tabby 
    markings. And then there are always the "patched" tabbies....
    
    
    

    re .75 Thanks Roberta, I will drop by if I can figure out where you
           sit. The calendar may help in id'ing the rascal. Perhaps the
           cat is only striking to me (it's colors/markings) and some of
           the more devoted cat fanciers in the file just think of it as
           another one of those XXXYYYZZZZ cats.
    
           Has someone seen this commercial?
    
           Thanks/Keith
    
           p.s. I would love it even more if the one I (hopefully) find
                has "paddle" paws. I know that's not the proper term for
                double paws but that's what they look like to me.
    

    
    Keith, I have seen the commercial and the cat is beautiful!  He/she
    is a stunning Silver tabby.  I am partial to the classic tabby pattern
    on any cat.  I think that the pattern is a piece of natural art.  I just 
    prefer tabbies that happen to be Exotics! :')
    
    

    I was looking at my silver tabby and thinking how much she resembled a
    zebra striped danio (tropical fish) from the top view.  Strange what
    you think of when you're day dreaming!  
    
    Pardon my ignorance - but ... are there such things as Exotic SH tabbies?
    

    Thanks for the info, atleast now I know what colour to say he is when
    people ask.
    
    
    Tracy W
    
    p.s. Did any UK noters see the Demond Morris programme on Monday about
    cats?  Great prog.  

    I seen the commercial with the Silver Tabby...and find the colors
    are so bright and amazing!!!   It's not even the pattern that is
    striking to me...it's the vivid colors of gray/blue and black!
    
    Beautiful striking cat...
    
    Sandy
    

    Yeah...what Sandy said!
    
    K.C.

Yeah, the blue with the black markings are absoultely beautiful.  Just FYI,
Nancy DC's Silver shadow (scottish fold) is that color.  He's absolutely 
georgeous!

RE:  Linda Miller

Yes, there is such a thing as a tabby Exotic Shorthair.  Although a 
good silver tabby exotic is very rare to find.  Cindy Gerry's Tiger stripes
(stripey) is a brown tabby.  Also, Diane Levin's Alex is a red tabby.

The reason that a good silver tabby is rare to find is that for some reason,
the silvers seem to be less "extreme" in the persians (which is actually
what I like in a persian.) 

What I'd really like to see is a good shaded silver exotic shorthair!  
That would be beautiful!

Holly
 

    The colorpointed Exotics are to die for too, though I believe the head
    type still needs some work to truely conform to the standard.
    
    I have seen the classic tabby pattern on many Exotics at shows, but no
    silvers yet.
    

    Holly,
    
    We have a breeder out here on the west coast that breeds shaded and
    chinchilla silver Exotic Shorthairs, very nice ones, I might add.  They
    are beautiful with their green eyes, mascara'd lids, noses, and silver
    tipped coats.
    
    I have seen the Friskies commercials too, and the cats that are used
    appear to be American Shorthairs (I remember a silver and a red),
    either a Chartreux or a blue British Shorthair (hard to tell the
    difference in that flash of a second that they are running around), and
    a Japanese Bobtail (the one jumping off the globe).
    
    Jo

    Thanks for all the replies. Now that I know what I'm after, where
    do I look for one and what should I expect to pay? As previously
    stated, I don't know if these are in the same league as Persians,
    Siamese, etc (the $$$$ league, that is).
    
    Thanks/Keith
    

    Kitten prices depend on the breed availability.  Persian and Siamese
    pet kittens are generally slightly less money than lesser known breeds.
    Pet quality kittens of my breed, Birmans, range from $350-550 depending
    on the area that you buy from.  I charge $400 for mine.  Most other
    minority breeds fall into this range.
    
    The best way to find out kitten prices is to visit a show and speak to
    the breeders of the breed you want.  You will get a good feel for the
    breeders, and will be able to compare pricing between them.  There can
    be some differences.  For instance, many breeders in my area charge the
    same that I do, but they do not to the vaccinating, FIV and FELV
    testing, and the blood panel that I do on my kittens.  Be sure you know
    what you are getting for your money.
    
    Jo  

    > "Paddle Paws"

    I believe the term is polydaetyle, sometimes called a "mitten cat"

    
    The late Argus J. Pussycat. Esq had triple paws in front, double in the
    back. My Cute Little Panther is double pawed.
    
    Deb

    
    re:  .88  - Jo, I certainly agree with you about the shaded &
    chinchilla Exotics!  They are doing an excellent job with their
    breeding program!  
    
    As far as Exotic kittens go I know that Cin has kittens available.
    One litter does not have any tabbies in it (bi-color and black) but
    I do know that the other litter produced a lovely blue tabby girl. 
    Stripees (Cin's brown tabby) has produced some special tabby kitties.
    My Bailey, Allsion's Alex and lest we forget Kate's shining star,
    Ms. Preschie to name a few!
    
    My ultimate cat is certainly the pointed Exotic.  They have improved
    tremendously.  In the CFA Yearbook there is a cattery called "Visions".
    The add pictures both a bluepoint and a sealpoint.  They have come
    a long way!
    
    
    

    I am trying to picture striped Exotics.  I can honestly say I have
    never seen one or a picture of one.  TICA is very liberal - so I am
    sure they are recognized.  Exotics are the "naked persians" aren't
    they?  I've seen the "ordinary colours" but nothing else, maybe it's
    like the British - the norm is blue, black etc and the others are more
    "unusual".
    

    
    In regards to seeing pictures of striped (tabby) exotics.....Alex's
    picture is in this year's CFF yearbook.  His younger sister LandL's
    Judy Garland of Cattyshack will be pictured in this year's yearbook, as
    well as Alex again.  She is a brown patched tabby.  Exotics come in all
    the same colors as the persians, and when using tabby parents getting
    tabby kittens are quite common.   I know using the Candy (red tabby) and
    Stripees (brown tabby) combination has produced 3 litters thus far with
    a majority (80%) of tabbies - 50% red tabbies, 20% brown tabbies, 10%
    brown patched tabbies - the last 20% is tortie.  Cats Magazine not too
    long ago had a brown tabby exotic pictured.  We just love the tabbies,
    right Marlene?
    
    -Diane
    

    Moderator .. This may be in wrong category ... feel free to move if
    appropriate....
    
    
    Question:  What is a "Patio Cat" ????
    
    When I picked up Harry (the Rat) from a pet store two years ago, his
    sales slip said white/gray patio cat.
    
    He's short-hair, and equal amounts of gray and white on his back and
    head, mostly white belly and legs.
    
    (His gray areas do resemble fieldstone in that they are asymmetric in
    shape.)
    
    I just had never ever heard the term "patio cat."  
    
    Any thoughts?

    Never heard of the term, except from my sister who did have a patio
    cat.  She named her Paddy O'Kitty and found her a home.  The cat had
    been living on Jan's patio for months. :')
    
    Jo

    Marlene/Diane.. here I is.. did someone say Tabby.. oh yeah..
    love those Tabbys.... both  short and long hair.. smirk grin
    giggle. Hugs to all...
    Kate who is still 400+ notes behind..
    

	Colour-genetics with cats !

	Maybe something of interest to someone.

	I'm not a specialist on this subject, but I've written a few lines
	of colour-genetics on cats. I know that a lot can be said about
	this subject and that my little story isn't complete.
	Especially the 'difficult' stuff with point-cats.
	I hope I haven't left out any important stuff but then again,
	contribute if you please. 
	

	Every human beeing consists of a set of genes that makes him/her
	unique. The genes determine if you're a boy or a girl, the color
	of your eyes, hair, length etc. 
	This is also applicable for our furry friends (colour of fur, eyes,
	length of fur, tail, body etc.).
	These genes comes in pairs called chromosomes (so for every gene
	there are 2 chromosomes).

	From each of the parents the kitten get's one of each pair and
	similar genes are connected to make a new set of genes for
	the kitten.
	A few pair of genes determine the color of the cat but a lot of
	them makes out if he/she is slim or chubby.


	The gender is determined by the male, because he's the only
	one who's got 2 different chromosomes to make out the gender.
	Male   = X Y 
	Female = X X
	To calculate the chance for a girl or a boy we make a grid and
	put each chromosome seperate in a box.

	Male/	|   X     Y
	Female  |
	--------------------- 
	X	|  XX     XY
		|
	X	|  XX     XY

	As you can see the chances are equal (50 - 50).
	Although there are litters with all girls or all boys the chances
	are based on a large amount ofcourse.
	

	For genes that make out colour, fur-length and pattern, letters
	are being used. To make a difference between e.g. shorthair and
	longhair, upper- and lowercase letters are used.
	Or to make it more simple you can just say that the lowercase letter
	is the opposite of the uppercase, like 'I' stand for silver,
	so 'i' is than without silver.

	The difference between upper- and lowercase is stated as 
	dominant and recessive.	Dominant is always *shown*, recessive
	is carried by the cat, but is only *shown* when 2 recessive genes 
	makes a pair.
	
	Length
	------
	Length is symbolised by the letter L.

	For fur-length we can use the grid in the same way, except we've got
	4 combinations of each.
	LL = shorthair
	Ll = shorthair (carrier longhair)
	lL = shorthair (carrier longhair)
	ll = longhair
	

	Male/	|   L    L   |  L   l   |   l   L  |   l   l  |
	Female  |            |          |          |          |
	-------------------------------------------------------
	L	|  LL    LL  | LL   Ll  |  Ll   LL |  Ll   Ll |
	L	|  LL    LL  | LL   Ll  |  Ll   LL |  Ll   Ll |
	--------|------------|----------|----------|----------|
	L	|  LL    LL  | LL   Ll  |  Ll   LL |  Ll   Ll |
	l	|  lL    lL  | lL   ll  |  ll   lL |  ll   ll |
	--------|------------|----------|----------|----------|
	l	|  lL    lL  | lL   ll  |  ll   lL |  ll   ll |
	L	|  LL    LL  | LL   Ll  |  Ll   LL |  Ll   Ll |
	--------|------------|----------|----------|----------|
	l	|  lL    lL  | lL   ll  |  ll   lL |  ll   ll |
	l	|  lL    lL  | lL   ll  |  ll   lL |  ll   ll |
	--------|------------|----------|----------|----------|



	Colours
	-------
	
	Dominant			Recessive
	Type		Letter		Type		Letter

	Black		B		Chocolate	b
	Brown		C		Lilac		c
	Silver		I		non-silver	i
	*Red		O		non-red		o
	with White	S		without white	s
	**White		W		not white	w

	These letters don't make out a colour but more or less the
	way they are *presented* on a cat:
	Agouti		A		Non-agouti	a
	Solid		D		Diluted		d

	there a few more (i can't remember these by heart), but most
	colours are stated. 

	** = The White-gene overrides all other colour-genes. The cat
	is completely white, but genetic it is still a coloured cat.
	This is different from the 'S'-gene where the cat has a certain
	amount of white.

	* = The red-gene is the only gene that is defined on the gender
	chromosome. The O-type is places on the X-chromosome of the cat.
	Because a male has only 1 X-chromosome he's always totally red
	(or cream, which is a diluted red). That's why there are no
	tortie males.

	A female is only totally red if she has a O-type on each of her
	X-chromosomes. 

	To give an example, this grid will show us the combinations
	of red.
	
	Male/	   | 	     X		           Y
	Female	   |  no red   red	 |     -       -
	---------------------------------------------------
	X   red    |  tortie   red       |   red       red
                   |                     |
        X   no red |  non-red  tortie    |   non-red   non-red
        -----------|----------------------------------------
	           |  female kittens	 |   male kittens
	


	Some chromosomes determine not the colour itself but the amount,
	pattern and shading of colour.
	These are the 'S', 'D', 'A' and 'T' -combinations.
	'D' stands for diluted, so a genetic black cat (B) with a diluted
	factor ('dd') turns out to be blue. If he/she got only 1 'd'-factor
	the cat is black, but can produce blue kittens if mated with
	a blue or blue-carrier cat. (remember that kittens get 1 chromosome
	from every parent !!).
	SO:
	DD | black kittens only
	DD | 

	DD | black kittens only, of which 1/2 carries diluted
	Dd |

	Dd | 1/4 blue, 3/4 black of which 1/2 carries diluted
	Dd |	

	DD | black kittens only, of which all carries diluted
	dd |
	
	Dd | 1/2 black which carries diluted, 1/2 blue
	dd |

	dd | blue kittens only
	dd | 

	This goes for the agouti-gene ('A') as well.


	Do determine what colour your kittens will be you'll have to know
	the genetic structure of both parents. If you're not sure, you
	could leave out this combination and just say 'with' or 'without'
	for that chromosome or just fill in a blank for the one that
	you don't know (like A_ ==> could be Aa or AA).

	For every chromosome pair of both parents, make up a grid.
	So for cat A (aa B Dd)  and cat B (Aa B D Ii) this will be the
	combinations for A:  aBD and aBd
	combinations for B:  ABDI, ABDi, aBDI and aBDi
	Now make a grid for this one and combine those .

	So let's do a little quiz!

	What do you get if you mate a black smoke (blue-carrier) male
	with a black tortie-tabby (blue-carrier) female ?
	To make things easier i'll give you the genetic codes:
	Male   :  aa B Dd Ii
	Female :  AA B Dd Oo


	And what does these cats deliver ?
	Male   :  W AA B DD
	Female :  AA B Dd Ss


	Have fun.
	

    Is there a special color-name for Maine Coons that are silver mackeral
    tabby with white legs, belly, and neck & chin?
    
    Michelle
    

    Yep, there's a special name, it's silver mackerel tabby and white. :')
    
    Jo

                       
                     BASIC PRINCIPLES OF CAT GENETICS
                         (from a CFA brochure)
    
    *  The male kittens in a litter always get their color from the dam.
    
    *  The color of the female kittens in a litter is always a combination
       of the sire's and dam's color.
    
    *  To get a genetic red or genetic cream female kitten, the sire must
       be a genetic red or a genetic cream and the dam must also have red
       or cream in her.
    
    *  Only the two parents can determine the color of a kitten.  The
       colors, patterns, etc., found in the pedigree of a kitten will NOT
       directly effect the color of the kitten. 
    
    *  A dominant characteristic (dominant colors, shaded, smoke, white,
       tabby, bi-color, etc.) cannot skip generations.  It cannot go from one
       generation to the next without showing the characteristic in each
       generation.
     
    *  Cats displaying a dominant color (black, red, tortie, etc.) must have
       a parent which displays a dominant color.
    
    *  Two recessive color parents (cream, blue, etc.) cannot produce a cat
       of a dominant color (black, red, tortie, etc.).
    
    *  Two colorpointed parents cannot produce a non-colorpointed
       offspring.
    
    *  To get a colorpointed kitten both parents must be carrying the
       colorpointed gene (even if they are not colorpointed themselves).
    
    *  The mating of a colorpointed Persian and a Persian with no
       colorpointed background will produce NO colorpointed kittens.
    
    *  A tabby cat must have at least one parent that is either shaded or
       a tabby.
    
    *  All red cats will have some tabby markings.  Whether they can
       produce as a tabby will depend on whether it is a true tabby with a
       tabby (or shaded) parent or whether it is a red with tabby markings.  
       A red tabby that is not a true tabby cannot produce a tabby offspring of
       any other color without being bred to a true tabby (or shaded).
    
    *  A cat with a white undercoat (smoke or shaded) must have a parent
       that has a white undercoat.
    
    *  A shaded cat must have at least one parent that is shaded.
    
    *  A tabby cat must have at least one parent that is either shaded or
       tabby.
    
    *  Shaded parents can produce smoke offspring, but smoke parents cannot
       produce shaded offspring.
    
    *  A bi-colored cat must have a bi-colored parent.
    
    *  Tri-color cats (blue-cream, tortie, calico) are almost always
       female, but males can and do occur occasionally.
    
    *  A white cat must have a white parent.
    
    *  Two longhairs cannot produce a shorthair.
    
    *  A mackerel tabby kitten must ahve mackerel tabby parent.
    
    *  A spotted tabbykitten must have a spotted tabby parent.
    
    
                                                                       

>>    *  Two longhairs cannot produce a shorthair.
    
    Can the assumption be made of the opposite, that two shorthairs cannot
    produce a longhair?    

    Thanks, Marlene.  That was some cool information!!
    
    Cheryl,
    
    Two shorthairs can indeed produce a longhair if *both* cats are carrying
    the recessive gene for long hair.  To further elaborate, when breeding
    a shorthair to a longhair, the shorthair must be carrying the gene for
    long hair in order for some of the offspring to show long hair.  If the
    shorthaired parent does not carry the gene for long hair, then all
    kittens in the first generation will have short hair (because it is a
    dominant trait), but some will carry the gene for longhair to pass onto
    future generations.
    
    I think I explained this correctly! :^)
    
    -Roberta
    

Also, people must understand that White is not genetically a color.  It
masks all colors.

Two white cats can very easily produce a black and white cat or a red cat.
(I've seen the results!).  Also, a black and white cat bred to a white cat
can very easily produce a pure white cat.

Holly (who has turkish angoras who are predominantly white)

    
    You are welcome, Roe!  I thought that it was a great "cheat sheet" for
    those of us that get lost in all genetic maps, etc.  As most folks know
    I adore tabbies and was disappointed to find out that the cats' pedigree
    has no impact on the pattern of the kitten, a tabby parent is
    necessary to produce a tabby kitten.  I was hoping that because
    Callie's dad was a tabby I might be able to produce tabbies.  Looks
    like I'll be getting solids and particolors!
    

    
    To obtain CFA color genetic charts at no charge, contact the CFA, PO
    Box 1005 Manasquan, NJ  08736-1005, or call 908-528-9797.  Specify
    either the pointed or non-pointed chart.
    
    

    Maybe you can help me - we recently adopted a 9-month old male
    shorthair.  He's got strange markings and I'd like to know how to
    describe them 'officially'.  Also, if any of you have clues as to what
    breed(s) he might be...
    
    Spunky is grey, white, and tan.  He's got dark gold eyes, pink paw
    pads, and a pink nose.  His grey patches are striped grey/dark grey. 
    His tail is ringed grey with dark grey and faint tan.  He's got a
    couple of small mainly tan with a little grey strip patches on his
    tummy and on the inside of his hind legs.  His face is 60% white, with
    a grey stripe patch over and around one eye, leading up to his ears -
    one ear has a patch of white at the tip, the other has a stripe of
    white going up the outside edge to the tip, the stripe connected to a
    swirl of white on his shoulder.  His coat, in the grey patches, has
    hair that is multicolored - dark grey and light grey with some hairs
    having a faint tan or white tip.  His body has about 60% grey stripe
    and 40% white, delineated neatly.
      
    He's got a medium build, not as slender as a siamese, but not as broad
    as a coon cat.  Any ideas??
    
    Thanks,
    Dana and Spunky  

    Hard to say without seeing him....but maybe a Tabby w/ white
    domestic cat.  Short haired?

    Yes - short haired.  I've been trying to get a picture of him in case
    he gets out (my neighbor would probably end up adoopting him if I
    didn't have a picure of him!) but he's not fond of the camera....
    
    Dana

    It SOUNDS like a blue tabby with white.  Can't understand the tan,
    though.  
    
    Holly
    

    I think he is a blue tabby with white.  The tan is normal with a blue. 
    I can't remember what it is called right now, but it is normal on a
    blue tabby.  Blue tabby's that don't the tan coloration o their
    undercoat are called Blue Silver's.  The silver gene does something to
    the tan to make it turn white.  Anway, I have a blue tabby and white
    household pet, and he has the tan.
    
    It is hard to tell from a description, since people have a tendency to
    describe both blue and silver as grey.  But, generally the eye color
    will help.  Generally speaking, if they have green eyes they have the
    silver gene.  If they have gold/copper eyes, it's more likely the blue
    gene.
    
    Jo

    RE: Jo:  Color of eyes with Blue
    
    Not always, Jo.  Remember, Russian Blues and Korats are "blue" but both
    have Green eyes.  Genetics are really flaky sometimes!! (-:
    
    
    Holly
    

    But don't Russian Blues and Korats have the silver gene (thus the
    silver tipping on the coat)?  That would account for their green eyes.
    
    Jo

    I believe that the "tan" color is called "peach" (or at least that is
    what the groomer told me). My Haralambos (Harry) has a little of this
    on his face.
    
    Deb

    
    Isn't that gray/white/tan combination known as 'dilute calico'?  I seem
    to remember hearing that term somewhere to describe a similar cat
    (although one without the tabby markings).
    
    

    Sandy,
    
    Yes, the gray/white/tan combination is as "dilute calico", but this
    person seems to be talking about a male cat.  99.9% of calicos are
    females.
    
    RE: Jo and the silver gene.
    
    Russian blues do, but Korats don't.  Korats are solid blue.  They have
    a "sheen" to their coats because the shaft of their furr is hollow,
    giving a bit of a silvery sheen to them, but that's all.
    
    Holly
    

    Well, I did say that "generally" the blues have gold eyes. :') :') :')
    
    Jo

    Hey, Korats have never been known to be "normal". (-:
    
    Holly
    

    
    I second that remark! (;

    Yep, Harry is DEFINATLY a  male; But in order to call a cat a calico*,
    the cat needs to have big splotches of the red color (or "brindled"
    red and black for a tortie); In Harrys's case, this peach is just an
    outline aound his eyes, with a faint peach tiger stripe radiating to the
    cheeks. Alexandra sort of has this, too
       
    In looking more closely, though, Harry is silver (with green eyes), and
    Alex is blue (with big dark yellow eyes).
    
    Deb
    
    *I have the definition from the Calico Cat Registry, somewhere.

    Could be rust.....    ;^}
    
    
    my silver tabby is rusting with age!!!!!
    
    She is almost 9 and has several splotches of tan that she didn't have
    until we moved out here to New England!!!!!  Holly, you saw Chessie's
    "rust"..... remember me telling you about it last August???

We had two chocolate point Siamese, who in their old age started to "rust"
too.  We finally decided it was the food color from their food being 
transferred from their tongues to their coats!

Laura

    No, silver tabbies "tarnish" with age.  I'm not really
    sure why this happens, but when Boogie was about 4 the
    breeder who I got Mips and Belle from told me that. At
    3 1/2 I noticed that Belle was starting to tarnish in
    a couple of spots.  I feel like I should be polishing
    them up or something....... :-)  Someone in here I think
    once said something about too much sunlight washing out
    the coat....I don't remember where I saw it though.
    
    MM

    Sunlight can do it and so can the cat's saliva.  That is one reason why
    the silver's at shows usually have bibs around their necks.  That way
    they can't spend the day licking their ruffs and turning them rusty
    colored. :')
    
    Black cats can rust too, but that is mostly due to sunlight.
    
    Jo

    WHY?
    
    Why is a calico cat referred to as a "Money Cat"?  I have heard this 3
    times in the past year.  Is it just the male or both male and female? 
    How did they get this nickname?
    
    Thanks for your asssitance,
    JOyce

    Ok, I'll take a shot at this one. (although this being my first week
    back from vacation, I may still be brain dead!)
    
    Calico cats are almost invariably female. Almost. It's really the male
    that causes the nickname 'Money Cat', because there really aren't any.
    It was thought that if you had a true calico that was male, it would be
    worth a lot of money, thus the nickname.
    
    Now I've heard that a male wouldn't really be worth a lot of money,
    because they are invariably sterile, and thus worth nothing as far as
    breeding. I don't have proof of this. Can anyone else clear this part
    up? I've never seen a male calico (or tortie for that amtter) or known
    anyone that has seen one, so I don't know about the real worth, except
    maybe a priceless pet. ;-)
    
    Hope this helps. (I also hope this isn't one to be moved that I
    missed!)
    
    Yonee

    
    I read somewhere that the calico/tortoiseshell coloring is caused by a
    dominant Orange gene with a recessive Orange gene, color genes are
    carried on the sex chromozomes (X,Y), and only X chromozomes can carry
    either type of Orange.  Therefore a cat needs 2 X's (i.e. female) to be
    a calico or tortoiseshell.  The only time that a male can be calico/
    tortoiseshell is if it isn't a "true" male, i.e. if it actually has
    three sex chromozomes like XXY, and that's why it is sterile.
    
    V

    I always thought that the tortoiseshell gene is a lethal gene for the
    male cats, killing most of the male tortoiseshells in the womb, except
    for a very few that are born sterile.

    OK, here's another theory. My Poppy is tortie and white, and when we
    adopted her from the shelter, the woman there referred to her as a 
    "money cat," a term I'd never heard. When I asked where the term comes
    from, the woman said it's because their orange spots look like gold
    coins. Sounded good to me. 
    
    However, my brother-in-law (married my sister and her five calico
    cats) says they're called money cats because its costs so much to keep
    them in the manner they're accustomed to!
    
    Kate
    

    I just knew somebody out there was going to know the chromosome set up!
    Thanks! I knew it was somehitng like that, but, in my p[resent
    condition after vacation, there was no way I would have even made an
    attempt at that! ;-)
    
    Yonee (who LOVES the wealth of info one can glean from this file)

    RE: .131 and the orange spots
    
    There is a calico cat registry. When I sent away for paperwork to
    register the late Lovely Pip S. Pussycat, Esq, they asked you to
    classify your calico as (there were about 8 classifications). The money
    cat classification is only for those calicos whose gold patchs are
    round (in the shape of coins).
    
    Deb
    
    P.S. For the record, Pip was a tortishell and white, the most rare of
    the calico "family" of coat patterns.

    Just an FYI, I HAVE seen a male calico.  I was at a cat show in
    Pennsylvania and PIMA was competing in the kitten class (she's a
    cornish rex).  Above her name, I saw this other cat classified as "Male
    Calico".  Of course, everyone laughed at the "misprint" and immediately
    made it female.  Until the first ring. 
    
    The judge saw the "misprint" and automatically changed it to female. 
    She then went and got the cat, and picked him up by the back end.  As
    soon as she felt the back end, her eyes lit up and she said, "It is!!"
    
    In talking to the owners, this is the second one they have had. 
    They're not sure if he's steril or not, but his father is the other
    calico they had.
    
    Holly (now Ventura)
    

I remember this from High School Biology. The person who said that you need
2 X chromosomes is correct. Thus any traditional male that is calico is XXY
a genetic failing known as Klinefelters (sp) syndrome in humans. It is
Phenotypically (i.e. to appearance) male. However most XXY suffers are not
fertile (in either Humans OR cats to my memory). However if one were fertile
it would have a high probablity of producing more kittens of the 
same (as it is very likely to pass on that attached XY pair, and if that
XY pair meets an egg voila you have XXY again). The other way would be 
whats known as a sport. Basically a random mutation that made calico like
behavior (sports are not unknown in the cat world, witness the Rex). That
would also probably be fertile. I think this orange gene thing is also related
to why orange and white cats are almost always male. Cat fur color pairings are 
fairly well mapped as (for better or worse) cats have been used in MANY genetic
studies as they have fairly short generations for large mammals.

Thanks,
Keith